Angry Astronauts (R/G Moon Beats)

[Qweerios]

I don't know if a deck like this already exists but here is my attempt at it. The main idea is to lay down a T1 mana dork and follow up with a T2 moon effect. Here is my current list:

***UPDATED LIST/CURRENTLY IN TESTING***

Creatures (23)
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Vithian Renegades

Spells (11)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Dismember
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Others (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Blood Moon
1 Sarkhan Vol

Lands (20)
4 Taiga
3 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard (15)
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Vithian Renegades
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Krosan Grip
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Anarchy


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ORIGINAL LIST/THREAD:

Creatures (24)
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Skinshifter
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (10)
3 Mental Misstep
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

Enchantments (5)
2 Sylvan Library
3 Blood Moon

Artifacts (2)
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands (19)
4 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard (15)
1 Mental Misstep
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod's Crypt


The manabase is very stable: fetch 1 or 2 forest with a mana dork in play and the moon effect turns all of your fetchlands into mountains.

Bloodbraid Elf has played a significant role when it comes to overwhelming your opponent before they can deal with moon. Anything she flips into besides MM will put pressure on your opponent. A great T3 play that the control player loathes. I would play 4 but deck space is so limited.

Skinshifter is basically Goyf 5-8. His 4/4 Trample form comes down very fast and makes great use of Exalted while his 2/2 flying form carries Jitte like a champ.

Grim Lavamancer and Jitte is what keeps this deck alive against big aggro decks like Zoo, Bant, Maverick, and NO RUG.

Chaos Warp is a controversial card. This card instills fear in me but sometimes its the only answer. I don't know if I want to include this card and don't know what I would take out for it.

Some of the issues I have with playing this deck are:

-Fighting decks that are unnafected by moon effects like monocolored decks, colorless decks, and red-based decks.
-Fighting combo decks. This deck puts no real dent in combo's plans.
-The lack of main deck Artifact/Enchantment removal.

This is a very fun deck that could use a bit of improvement. I will be looking forward to your suggestions.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Dont play Mental Misstep. Seriously, you'll kick yourself every time you flip it over. That and you really don't have anything at one that you NEED to counter.

[Greenpoe]

No Wasteland, Natural Order or GSZ? Why not, especially when you could cut BoP for GSZ for your extra Goyfs or accel?

[Freggle]

Too little Suppression Field :-D

Excellent piggy-back. 8 moons beats 4 fields any day.

Edit: Chain lightning and giving your opponent red mana can be a little problematic for Magus or your mana men. They should go.

[rupus]

I like this idea. It's like a mix of dragon stompy and goyf sligh. Beast within is better than chaos warp. I agree about chain lightning. It could be rift bolt maybe which has the benefit of dodging misstep. Or fireblast maybe. Chalice or trinisphere could help vs combo although moon effects can be a beating since some storm decks don't even play basics. Hierarch is better than birds and lavamancer is so hot I would want 4 but you probably can't feed him. Also misstep isn't that good here like others have said. Maybe -3 misstep -3 chain lightning -1 birds +1 hierarch +3 rift bolt +3 beast within.
In the board -3 k grip -2 hooligan -1 misstep +1 library +3 pyrostatic pillar +2 ancient grudge.

I thought about it and 3 sphere and chalice would suck here. Pillar is hot tech vs combo though. Library owns control in the face so I put a 3rd in the board. IDK if you want wastes but I would try them. Also, awesome name.

EDIT: @Whoever suggested zenith think about for a sec (BBE *cough*). Speaking off BBE she is gas. Maybe -1 skinshifter +1 BBE.

[Qweerios]

I have noticed the dissynergy of Chain Lightning with Blood Moon and, yes, its pretty bad. I swapped them out for Magma Jet and wow does that card fit in like a glove. 2 CC makes it MM-proof, instant speed makes it so much more versatile, and the scrying effect is priceless with Library and Bloodbraid. Especially when Moon is online and I can't fetch to shuffle away the top cards of my library.

As for Mental Misstep, I have actually upped the count to 4. I know its a bad flip, but it is essential when resolving a T1 accel from opposing MM, Bolts, and StP. I did flip it with Bloodbraid and facepalmed but overall, MM has proven its worth.

I don't play Wastelands because, well, I play 7 moon effects. If I were to include them, something would have to be cut (probably Magma Jet). I will test Wastelands soon enough though.

Hmmmm, I didn't think of GSZ.... It beats Hierarch in every way when combined with Dryad Arbor. I will most definitely change 3 hierarchs for 3 GSZ. I value BoP over Hierarch simply because it can add red mana, which is essential. Although, I cannot abuse BBE with GSZ, it puts creatures into play.

I playtested this deck against BUG control, UW Stoneforge-still, and NO RUG. Against RUG, I took 5 matches out of 5. Resolving a moon spells GG. I went 4-1 vs. UW Stoneblade, they rely too much on batterskull to win and Skinshifter chumped blocked it all day until KGrip cleaned the way. 3-2 vs. NO RUG, a hard matchup when they manage to fetch 3-4 Goyfs, otherwise, we have answers to everything they play. Overall, this deck tends to eat control decks alive.

I will keep the original post updated with my current list as well as keeping the original list for reference.

[Shax]

Someone playing Dredge wants to see x3 Tormod's Crypt. Leyline of Sanctity is a free win in most cases unless you get lucky or get Krosan Grip with it. I would have diversity in my graveyard hate.

[rupus]

I have noticed the dissynergy of Chain Lightning with Blood Moon and, yes, its pretty bad. I swapped them out for Magma Jet and wow does that card fit in like a glove. 2 CC makes it MM-proof, instant speed makes it so much more versatile, and the scrying effect is priceless with Library and Bloodbraid. Especially when Moon is online and I can't fetch to shuffle away the top cards of my library.

As for Mental Misstep, I have actually upped the count to 4. I know its a bad flip, but it is essential when resolving a T1 accel from opposing MM, Bolts, and StP. I did flip it with Bloodbraid and facepalmed but overall, MM has proven its worth.

I don't play Wastelands because, well, I play 7 moon effects. If I were to include them, something would have to be cut (probably Magma Jet). I will test Wastelands soon enough though.

Hmmmm, I didn't think of GSZ.... It beats Hierarch in every way when combined with Dryad Arbor. I will most definitely change 3 hierarchs for 3 GSZ. I value BoP over Hierarch simply because it can add red mana, which is essential. Although, I cannot abuse BBE with GSZ, it puts creatures into play.

I playtested this deck against BUG control, UW Stoneforge-still, and NO RUG. Against RUG, I took 5 matches out of 5. Resolving a moon spells GG. I went 4-1 vs. UW Stoneblade, they rely too much on batterskull to win and Skinshifter chumped blocked it all day until KGrip cleaned the way. 3-2 vs. NO RUG, a hard matchup when they manage to fetch 3-4 Goyfs, otherwise, we have answers to everything they play. Overall, this deck tends to eat control decks alive.

I will keep the original post updated with my current list as well as keeping the original list for reference.

Hmmm...wastes are an interesting question here. I wonder if ghost quarter would be better so you can hit basics (at least until moon comes online). Beast within is so good. 3/3s should be a joke for you and you can hit basics or anything that is a problem. Instant speed vindicate is just so good. Not to mention you can turn extra lands or moons into dudes in a pinch. Test that shit and you will love it. I prefer ancient grudge to k grip especially without counterbalance around. It can't really be countered (profitably at least) and creates potential card advantage. There's not tons of enchantments to worry about right now and beast within gives you a nice answer to problem enchantments that is maindeckable. Magma jet is an awesome card and fits the curve perfect. Good idea. The problem I see with gsz into dryad is how awful dryads are if you draw them naturally. I always forget that hierarch doesn't make all colors but your dorks need to make green first and exalted is a good ability. If you flip a zenith and you already have to arbors out you get nothing. Also, every time you cast zenith you increase your chance of flipping it. IDK how much but when you already have 8/60 dead flips it sucks to up that ratio. That's not to say zenith doesn't have potential but I don't like it. If you do run it you can get some toolbox dudes (viridian shaman, xantid swarm, eternal witness, even gaddock teeg or qasali pridemage). You could even hardcasting those dudes with hierarch. I would be worried about goblins and fishies. Even maybe zoo. Those might be tough. Lavamancer eats fish but I don't know how much you will he able to use him. Plus all three of those decks (zoo a bit less so though) don't care much about moons. Jitte is good vs gobbos but they are running artifact removal maindeck more and more often. Zoo has lots of removal and can potentially outclass your dudes. Maybe you could board into NO PRO but zoo and gobbos could race and fish can metamorph or counter. Speaking of metamorph he is good tech too.

EDIT: Since when is Leyline a common card in Dredge? Still a split of relic and crypt is usually best.

[Muradin]

I wouldn't run Mental Misstep in this deck as well. With Blood Moon this deck should already be having a quite strong matchup against multicolored aggro control such.

To make it short, get 4 Punishing fire and 4 Grove of the Burnwillows in there. It isn't synergistic with Blood Moon, but neither combo piece sucks alone (Comparable to well, Shock and Karplusan Forest)... which ain't too bad.

Those cards win you the matchups where Blood Moon is weak (Meerfolk, Goblins, Zoo, Elfen, GW Maverick, anything with stoneforge Mystic...

And get the 4th GSZ in there along with Natural Order + Progenitus.

Short sample list:

20 lands:
4 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle

4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt

4 Magus of the Moon
3 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

[rupus]

I wouldn't run Mental Misstep in this deck as well. With Blood Moon this deck should already be having a quite strong matchup against multicolored aggro control such.

To make it short, get 4 Punishing fire and 4 Grove of the Burnwillows in there. It isn't synergistic with Blood Moon, but neither combo piece sucks alone (Comparable to well, Shock and Karplusan Forest)... which ain't too bad.

Those cards win you the matchups where Blood Moon is weak (Meerfolk, Goblins, Zoo, Elfen, GW Maverick, anything with stoneforge Mystic...

And get the 4th GSZ in there along with Natural Order + Progenitus.

Short sample list:

20 lands:
4 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle

4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt

4 Magus of the Moon
3 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

What does cradle do? How are you going to turn on lavamancer?

NO PRO seems awful here. It doesn't help vs any tough matchups and greedy control and aggro control decks already get hit hard by moons. All NO PRO does is open yourself to 2 for 1s vs anything with counters.

I thought about fires too but I think it won't work. There's no way to find either piece of the combo and although both cards are ok on their own without both they are worse than other options (2 mana shock < shock < every other payable burn spell). Not to mention they are very bad with moons. Fires doesn't beat maverick or mystic decks as much as you think. If anything fires should be in the board. Ooze isn't as good as you want it to be. Thrun is cool but I think I like the OPs bbes better because they kill Jace better. Thrun is definitely a good sb card.

[Qweerios]

After testing Wasteland, I really don't like them in this deck and I am a major advocate of Wasteland. When there are nonbasics to get rid of, I already have 7 Moons to take care of them. More often than not, Wastelands would flood me with mana or deprive me of colored mana. The tempo boost is not what I am looking for. A definite no for this deck.

I tried cutting Birds altogether for 4 Hierarchs and it still works. Exalted is too good.

I tested 3 and 4 GSZ and I love the card. I am never dissapointed to see it and it makes my threat count go up. 3 works fine but no reason not to play 4.

I upped the Magma Jet count to 4 and really didnt regret it. With Jet and Library I can dig for 5 cards AND deal 2 dmg to anything. Scrying is great when fetches are locked, when you want to find that moon, or when you want to avoid drawing into useless moons or MM. With 8 burn spells and Lavamancers, aggro is a joke, especially Merfolk. The beauty of all that burn when it comes to facing KotR or Goyfs is that it can always be directed to the player while Skinshifter flies over. This deck seems to chump block those fat creatures all day.

I'm not a fan of the NO Prog package because it is such an easy strategy to shut down. I don't think NO Prog is viable without any form of blue control. I will definitely look into the singleton Thrun though, that looks like a great idea!

Again, Mental Misstep is nuts and I don't see it going under 3 copies maindeck for a while. MM protects my early accel and beaters and shuts down brainstorms and ponders when my opponents desperately dig for sweepers or basic lands.

[rupus]

Told you hierarchs were hot :P
Wasteland sucking makes sense but it was worth trying anyways. Have you tested vs gobbos and fishies? It seems like having 7 dead cards in the main is just asking for trouble. I think gobs will be very tough especially. How often is lavamancer active? There's lots of fetches but other than that only 8 non permanents. I still think you need some beast withins. They are so good you don't even know. Maybe -1 skinshifter -1 zenith +2 beast within (and/or -1 misstep). I also think TSH should be something else (maybe metamorph because you seem cold to show and tell and NO decks). Especially because you can't zenith for TSH. Also ancient grudge -> k grip in this meta. I swear. Why did BBE get the axe? Too many bad flips? I wonder if maybe you want some other CA engine or if relying on lavamancer, library, and virtual CA from moons is enough. But really I just like BBE a lot. Anyways I'm going to make this on MWS and play whenever my head starts hurting from too much solidarity and try to contribute my wealth of bad ideas to thus thread.

EDIT: While I think beast within belongs in the main and gives you outs to everything (even things you have no business having outs to (and at instant speed!)) another option is a singleton viridian zealot or shaman for some main deck tutorable artifact and enchantment hate.

[Qweerios]

I thought about Vithian Renegades as a form of tutorable mainboard artifact removal. I think a couple of mainboard Beast Within would be more effective though. I haven't had any major losses to artifacts and enchantments G1 aside from Humility.

Kgrip is invaluable. It gets rid of humility and ghostly prison uncountered and also takes care of artifacts with sac/return abilities such as Batterskull, Deed, and EE. Ancient Grudge, however, could be a good replacement for Tin Street Hooligan.

With 4 bolts, 4 jets, and 3 grims, Merfolk is a walk in the park. Postboard is even easier when the blasts replace blood moon. I keep 2 Magus after g1 to shut down those mutavaults anyway. I haven't played against goblins yet, but I assume it shouldn't be that much harder.

I have yet to play against SnT. Playing against NO Prog isn't a problem but emrakul proves fatal.

[rupus]

I just played a few games vs zoo and it was just as tough as I thought. The only games I won were crazy triple or quadruple goyf draws or when he kept bad hands. I played your list -1 misstep -1 skinshifter -1 zenith +3 beast within. That increased my dead cards I'm the main but even without those changes I can't see it being much better. I brought in metamorphs and thrun for blood moons. I wonder if pyrostatic pillar can do double duty as storm and zoo hate. Maybe obstinate baloths? Leyline of vitality? Firespout?

EDIT: It was a very aggressive build with full sets of kird animals I think and steppe lynxes. I never saw my jittes which could've swung the matchup especially because I didn't see pridemages. Big zoo wouldn't be nearly as tough I think.

[Qweerios]

I think its kind of silly to expect a favorable or even matchup against Zoo. They basically play the same deck as us minus the moon effects in favor of a white splash for added fat. Our best bet is probably to hope and capitalize on an early moon or jitte.

[ajfennewald]

I played you last night on cockatrice. A couple comments:
Noble heirarch and green sun zenith into arbor might be a better acceleration package as the GSZ are not useless in the late game.
Bloodbraid Elf seems underwhelming with so many bad cascades.

It looks like you might have already reached the same conclusions

[rupus]

I think its kind of silly to expect a favorable or even matchup against Zoo. They basically play the same deck as us minus the moon effects in favor of a white splash for added fat. Our best bet is probably to hope and capitalize on an early moon or jitte.

Yeah that's probably true. I still wonder if 1 single obstinate baloth in the board might help a bit but who knows. Moon effects are surprising awful vs zoo. Jitte and pray is probably the best we can do. Oh well I guess a lot of decks have one matchup that they just scoop to. On the other hand I played vs Merfolk a couple times and I don't think we can lose. Even with moons being underwhelming it is amazing. Also, I cut the grave hate because usually there aren't many grave decks on mwsplay so of course all I've been playing is dredge and reanimator. In a real tourney I would definitely pack some grave hate. I really want beast within to be good but it has sucked in every matchup I've tested. Maybe it doesn't need to be here but it seems like it should be the nuts. Zenith for dryad arbor and hierarch is definitely the best acceleration package. It's super nuts (plus hierarchs let you pay for missteps and metamorphs every now and then). Right now I think the list is pretty solid. The only change I want to try is -1 relic +1 obstinate baloth in the board.

[Mantis]

You could test a Kitchen Finks in the mainboard to help against Zoo. First one trades, second one chumps or in some scenario's even trades.

[rupus]

You could test a Kitchen Finks in the mainboard to help against Zoo. First one trades, second one chumps or in some scenario's even trades.

I totally forgot about that guy. He is so much better than baloth. I don't know if I would put him main but I could totally see -1 skinshifter in the main for +1 thrun and then maybe -1 gravehate or -1 REB in the board for +2 finks. On another note, beast within has continued to disappoint me. I went back to OP list for 4 zeniths, 4 skinshifters, and 4 missteps and it is much better. Anyways, this list is starting to feel very tuned. The only change I would make to the OP list is what I said -1 skinshifter +1 thrun in the main and -1 thrun -1 relic +2 finks in the board. Another idea I had was great sable stag over thrun but I htink thrun is more useful and with 8 ramp spells he shouldn't be terribly hard to cast or zenith for. Still a 1 mana difference can be a big thing. Honestly, I would feel comfortable taking this to a tournament. maybe not an SCG open but local tourney for sure. Unfortunately, I'm missing too many cards for that to happen realistically any time soon but I would love to see this deck repped somewhere and hear a report on it.

[Qweerios]

Playing against Zoo isn't about surviving long enough. They have KotR and Goyf which are all out of bolt range, and are stronger than any of the creatures we pack. Also, moon effects are quite good against zoo. When layed down on T2, moon puts the hurt on steppe lynx, kird ape/loam lion, and potentially cripples them for a few turns. I always keep the Magus for g2 and it makes things smoother when my opponent is forced to fetch basics only. The matchup is far from hopeless, I have taken a few sets off of zoo quite convincingly. I wouldn't go as far as packing sideboard cards for the MU simply because I can't think of any that would really put the hurt on Zoo such as Perish. I would say it is about 40/60 in their favor. Here is how I play the matchup:

G1:
-Rush a moon effect in while they don't know its coming.
-Save Mental Missteps for bolts and chains if your moon is a magus. Save them for Nacatles and paths if your moon is a blood moon.
-Beat them down to 10-12 life with Skinshifter until goyf reaches relevant proportions then fly over.
-Combine early burn spells to get rid of Goyfs and KotR before they become too strong, Ignore the small creatures. When they become huge, burn their life total exclusively.

G2: -3 Blood Moon, +3 Metamorph
-Abuse the fact that they will slowroll their manabase and go for the jugular.
-Save MM for Paths and Bolts. Chains are welcomed because we can always fire them back.
-Try to save burn spells for their life totals as much as possible.
-Metamorph copies Goyf or KotR, which is much better than Finks IMO.

I agree with Thrun fitting in the maindeck, he has a lot of potential. I would never cut a shifter for him though. The card I would most likely cut is MM or Jet.

A matchup I have been troubled by has been Dredge and Reanimator. How much GY hate is necessary to effectively take them down?

[rupus]

Playing against Zoo isn't about surviving long enough. They have KotR and Goyf which are all out of bolt range, and are stronger than any of the creatures we pack. Also, moon effects are quite good against zoo. When layed down on T2, moon puts the hurt on steppe lynx, kird ape/loam lion, and potentially cripples them for a few turns. I always keep the Magus for g2 and it makes things smoother when my opponent is forced to fetch basics only. The matchup is far from hopeless, I have taken a few sets off of zoo quite convincingly. I wouldn't go as far as packing sideboard cards for the MU simply because I can't think of any that would really put the hurt on Zoo such as Perish. I would say it is about 40/60 in their favor. Here is how I play the matchup:

G1:
-Rush a moon effect in while they don't know its coming.
-Save Mental Missteps for bolts and chains if your moon is a magus. Save them for Nacatles and paths if your moon is a blood moon.
-Beat them down to 10-12 life with Skinshifter until goyf reaches relevant proportions then fly over.
-Combine early burn spells to get rid of Goyfs and KotR before they become too strong, Ignore the small creatures. When they become huge, burn their life total exclusively.

G2: -3 Blood Moon, +1 Thrun, +2 Metamorph
-Abuse the fact that they will slowroll their manabase and go for the jugular.
-Save MM for Paths and Bolts. Chains are welcomed because we can always fire them back.
-Try to save burn spells for their life totals as much as possible.

Yeah I would definitely keep magus in. The problem, especially game 2 and 3, is that if they fetch a basic forest T1 they don't really have mana problems. I don't worry about their goyfs because exalted lets mine eat theirs. KOTR also isn't super scary to me. What I don't like is very fast infinite 1 drop builds. They are so brutal. (Also, beast within is a good answer to KOTR but useless vs kird animals/nacatls and goyfs to an extent). Going long I think we have the advantage with jitte, skinshifters and zeniths. A couple finks would really help swing super aggro zoo matchups. 4 life and 2 trades or a trade and a chump would go a long way. What about moment's peace (just kidding, mostly). I guess a bit of luck and a bit of jitte can go a long way.

[rupus]

The more I play with this deck the more I think finks are a good call. So far the 2 toughest matchups are burn and zoo. It's unreasonable to go to a tournament and expect to avoid both of them and finks has the potential to swing both. The other idea I had was chalice because if we bring out bolts hierarchd are our only 1 drops and we can still zenith for them. Chalice would also help vs combo which is another rough matchup. The problem is zoo and burn will likely bring in artifact hate for jitte so chalice would be splash hated. Also I've never played chalice in a non stompy deck so idk relevant it is if you can't drop it t1.

[Freggle]

This is likely Legacy heresy but if you want to shore-up the Zoo, and dredge MU's why don't you test the deck Less (-4) Goyf, and add in (+4) RELIC OF PROGENITUS?

This way your battle plan in to nerf opponents goyf / knights to bolt / block range to bring all the boys to the yard.

You also pick-up a game against dredge, and any yard manipulation garbage these days.

Yes you loose some GSZ synergy & a Legacy staple, but I think it could make for a stronger deck.

I know it sounds wrong, but if you have other quality less vanilla beatz it's better to nerf what is beating you.

You will not out meat them as they are staples because they are so under costed.

I've been testing the Relic plan in my mono-green Enchantress pet deck with moderate success.

[Koby]

I've been testing the Relic plan in my mono-green Enchantress pet deck with moderate success.

Wheel of Sun and Moon does exist.

[Freggle]

Wheel of Sun and Moon does exist.

I don't want to derail this thread.

I know about wheel, but Relic has been working better because Wheel only stops growth on one yard Relic CLEARS both yards.

That leaves a nice clear path for my harder to remove Dungrove Elder(s) to wreak it's (their) havoc.

I'll post my list when I have more testing under my belt, but the Relic Plan MAY be worth testing here too.

You gain on both dredge and Zoo MU's

[rupus]

I've been playing with 2x relic 2x crypt in my board. Relic is underwhelming. Like I said goyf and KOTR aren't the real problem. It's just getting overwhelmed by their aggressive 1 drops and burn. Cutting goyf for crypts main is ridiculous. It's the worst idea I've ever heard. I might pick up a game vs dredge here and there but at the cost of all the other matchups. Goyf is just too good to cut. Vs. 90% of decks relic is a 2 mana cantrip. Eww...

[Qweerios]

I don't see whats the big deal with the Zoo MU... it's not that bad. In fact, out of 4 best of 3s, I won 3. G1 is such in our favor when they find themselves completely shut by moon (unless they draw basics).

[Qweerios]

I love Relic against land-less dredge, it's an auto-win on T1-2. I added a couple of finks to the sideboard for the Zoo matchup but mostly for the goblin matchup. A welcomed addition against sligh and burn too and a creature to add in against decks that we have dead main cards against and no sideboard options.

[rupus]

I love Relic against land-less dredge, it's an auto-win on T1-2. I added a couple of finks to the sideboard for the Zoo matchup but mostly for the goblin matchup. A welcomed addition against sligh and burn too and a creature to add in against decks that we have dead main cards against and no sideboard options.

I've never played gobbos. Was that a difficult matchup? On the other hand I did some testing vs affinity the other day and stomped them all day long. There's not much they can do about a moon effect and lavamancer and jitte kill all their dudes. Jitte can even kill Progenitus Jr. (etched champion). Relic is really bad for manaless dredge. They need a bunch of street wraiths, baubles, or probes to get around it. There's actually a ton of discussion in that thread about relic.

One matchup I would like to test more is Hive Mind. I imagine an early moon is pretty rough for them but I don't know if it's enough (especially because they have force). This seems to be getting more and more popular and it's probably pretty important to have a good matchup vs them.

Also, any plans on taking this bad boy to a tournament soon?

[muscleb]

I am going to try out a deck like this at a tournament for sure. "When?" is the actual question, since I still need alot of those cards

[Qweerios]

Goblins get hard when ringleader kicks in...

MM, REB, and Metamorph are really good against all form of Blue/SnT combo decks. MM takes care of their brainstorms or ponders while REB shuts down Intuition, SnT, and Force of Will quite convincingly. Metamorph handles Emrakul and regular mana accel does a great job at paying for pacts.

As soon as I get to trade my Scrublands for Taigas i'll be posting tournament results (it may take a while).

[Freggle]

Goblins get hard when ringleader kicks in...

MM, REB, and Metamorph are really good against all form of Blue/SnT combo decks. MM takes care of their brainstorms or ponders while REB shuts down Intuition, SnT, and Force of Will quite convincingly. Metamorph handles Emrakul and regular mana accel does a great job at paying for pacts.

As soon as I get to trade my Scrublands for Taigas i'll be posting tournament results (it may take a while).

I don't see a list with Metamorph is there an updated one?

I'ts not 100% but Mindbreak Trap in the board could help wonders against Hive Mind Pacts.

Not quite sure how to help with gobos... What's working and what's not?

[Koby]

I'ts not 100% but Mindbreak Trap in the board could help wonders against Hive Mind Pacts.


They will copy your Trap, and exile your Trap. Fighting Hive Mind with hard counters is ineffective.

[Qweerios]

Skinshifter is a great card for this deck but I think that cutting the amount of copies down to 1 and make space for a GSZ toolbox is a good call. Adding a single Scavenging Ooze to the deck gives it a maindeck answer to Dredge, Reanimator, EE/Ruins, KotR, and more. Adding Ooze also allows us to cut some SB GY hate. I think at least 1 mainboard answer to artifacts is a must in a Stoneforge era and that Vithian Renegades is a reasonable one. A single sideboard Gaddock Teeg is also a possibility.

-3 Skinshifter, +1 BoP, +1 Ooze, +1 Renegades

Any ideas of good/cheap/versatile green creatures that would fit into this deck?

EDIT** is Burning-Tree Shaman great at anything else than punishing Top?

[henry808]

for a utility sideboard card... why not Vexing Shusher as a 1-of? your control matchups should already be pretty good, so that frees up a spot or too from the REBs for more GY hate or Pyrostatic Pillar or the like.

also... what about Fireblast as a 1 or 2-of in this deck? it can pull wins out of nowhere... just a thought.

EDIT: so i threw this together on MWS... and all i can say is Wow. this blew away my expectations... it literally beats every control deck with no problems, and it has a good game against mid-range as well. Zoo and Combo are definitely the worst matchups, but it still doesnt roll over and die to anything.

this is the list I've come up with after just todays testing and looking over the thread:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Skinshifter
1 Vithian Renegades
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

4 Mental Misstep
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Fireblast
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Blood Moon

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windsweapt Heath
4 Taiga
3 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Gaddock Teeg

from what I've seen today... I think burn is underrated in this deck. the addition of Fireblasts has helped me close out games against control, and give me a fighting chance at racing aggro. Every spell in this deck has been great... seriously guys... this is special.

[Qweerios]

I just played a series of epic games with Maverick. I am surprised how good this deck is mid-late game with the GSZ toolbox. I am sold on Vithian Renegades as it is my only maindeck answer to SFM and beats for 3 afterwards. Consistently playable on T3, he is worse than Qasali Pridemage in some ways but better in others (he beats for 3 after he nukes artifacts).

I thought of Vexing Shusher for the SB but I really don't know he would be effective against what deck. Usually against control decks, I would prefer tutoring up a Thrun than a Shusher. The REB are there mainly as counterspells for Hive Mind, Show and Tell, and double up as counterspell for counterspells and Jace removal. i would play 4 if I had the space. I suppose I could try out Shusher over a Kitchen Finks.

[Qweerios]

I just re-sleeved the deck and did very good against BUG control, Soul Sisters, The Rock, and OK against goblins. I also posted an updated version in the opener.

Now that Mental Misstep is banned, I wonder if this deck would be a good choice. Since Chain Lightning doesn't work, what would be good burn spells include in this deck aside from Fireblast? I tested the card and really don't feel like it belongs in a midgame game like this one. I Find myself siding it out against anything playing blue.

My greatest challenge at the moment is beating Combo and getting past Goyfs and KotR. Does anybody have experience with Countryside Crusher?

[Seems Good]

Did you consider Trinisphere at all? Easy to power out T2 with mana dorks, flips over with BBE (not sure if this card is staying cut?) and utterly crushes combo. Only cards that it really hurts on your end are dorks/lavamancer/bolt, the 2 drops are still affordable at 3 IMO.

[from Cairo]

I'd suggest pushing a Sylvan Safekeeper into your GSZ package. Being able to protect Grim and Magus from StPs/burn is pretty solid. Scavenging Ooze might be worth a 2nd slot as well.

I'd personally probably cut a copy from the Goyf and Crusher slots, but it could by variable depending on playstyle.

[Qweerios]

I really don't like Trinisphere because it hurts me about as much as it hurts my opponent, except that it's costing me a card to do that...

Oh wow, Sylvan Safekeeper would go great with Countryside Crusher! I have found Thrun to be very lacking in a lot of ways and I think Safekeeper is exactly what I needed.

Bloodbraid Elf is definitely out of the deck. Her mana cost is too high for her size and there are too many cards in the deck that aren't worth cascading into.

The reason I play Tarmogoyf is because I need his speed. I don't play Goyf to fetch him with a GSZ (Although, a 3 mana Goyf is still a good play), I play him to capitalize on Moons. I am not trying to play a midgame deck, I want to be aggressive and prevent my opponent from developping a board position. The role this deck plays varies according to what it plays against, for example:
-If I play against Zoo, I want to stabilize and beat them with my superior threats.
-If I play against Maverick, I want to prevent them from reaching that midgame state where they are better than me. I need to be able to capitalize on an early Moon or removal spells by dropping threatening creatures (surprisingly, Maverick has been favorable so far).

In my recent testing, I found out that Magma Jet was not powerful enough to make the cut. No matter how awesome using a burn spell with Scry2 with a Crusher in play is, 2 mana for 2 damage is by far the weakest card in the deck. Besides, one of the problems I am facing right now is getting rid of big creatures like KotR, Tombstalkers, and Goyfs. Dismember is the best removal I found for this purpose so far.

As much as I love having Eternal Witness in my GSZ toolbox, this deck doesn't really offer any good Witness targets aside from Lightning Bolt and Dismember, she is better with a couple more diverse spells and Wastelands. She also has obvious disynergy with Grim Lavamancer.

The addition of Crusher has caused me to change Noble Hierarch for Birds of Paradise. Double red mana is now a requirement to be met by T2.

What would be the best choice between Top and Sylvan Library? Top is easier to cast, more versatile, and more resillient than Library. You can also use Top during your upkeep prior to a Crusher trigger. However, Library turns unused life points into additional cards. I prefer Top in the midgame and Library in the early game.

Also, what do you guys think of Sarkhan Vol? His +1 is a bit weak but it can be powerful. It acts as an offensive lord effect and giving Haste to Goyf or Renegade is a pleasant idea. What interests me the most, though, is the -2 ability that would use those big creatures I have trouble getting rid of and turn them against my opponent. Stealing a KotR for a turn with all the fetchlands and Crushers I play is a scary thought. Coupled with early aggression, it can be backbreaking. The -6 ability is fairly easy to achieve too and wins the game the following turn.

[muscleb]

I want to play this deck, when I played back when I was a kid and Ice Age was brand new, I played R/G beats with kird apes and Erham Djinns and such. I want to relive the magic frmo my childhood.

Anyway, the points brought up by Qweerios seems to make alot of sense, and I will definately bring this deck to battle against the usual suspects of the current meta.