[SCD] Aven Mindcensor

[John Cox]

Currently in legacy most decks have fetch lands, and a lot of the top tier decks use things like natural order, stoneforge mystic and green sun's zenith.
Why does almost no one use Aven mindcensor?

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGFUT/aven_mindcensor.jpg

I see lots of Vendilion clique being played, but crippling a three colour manabase or shutting off Green Sun's Zenith , Natural Order and/or stoneforge mystic all seem like better things. Vendilion clique and Aven mindcensor do different things, -clique cycles away the card you least want them to have, while aven mindcesnor helps win attrition wars and gain advantage.

Aven mindcensor has also always been a strong sleeper card, it was an answer to Mystical Tutor, Survival of the fittest and Storm combo pre Mental Misstep. With that said, very few people gave it a try in those era's.

Does the new rise of library manipulation warrant it's use now, and is it better than Vendilion clique ?

[hyc8028]

The problem with Mindcensor is that it has 2 power while clique has 3. It is a world of difference in terms of clock.

Mindcensor is slightly annoying, but it just doesn't do anything ground breaking on the battlefield. It is average at best.

[catmint]

I also thought about him and in theory he is very good against all the cards you mentioned.
Problem is you need acceleration to ensure he can come down T2, which not many decks have. If GSZ, Stoneforge was played or 2 lands are already in play his effect is not that strong. Besides that legacy has so much removal that he won't stick around fast. Since he is also not applying pressure, he does not do much except for this lock...

So overall I think it makes sense that it is only a SB option for GW Midrange. They have acceleration and loose to a bigger dude called Progenitus. Even for that purpose he does not do so well, because the NO RUG player can see it coming easily and has countermagic.

For decks that have the dedicated purpose to lock there are more powerful 3 mana options...

[kiblast]

Durward did play Mindcensor as a 2x in his Blue Zoo sideboard. I think is playable even MD if you run a reasonable amount of mana ramp turn 1 such as GSZ into Dryad or Hierarch. Dropped turn 2 against certain decks is must Force or must Sword or GG.

He's not Clique, but dropped turn 2 off a Hierarch he's a solid 3/2 attacker on turn 3. I would not dismiss it only for his little body.

[bruizar]

This has been a longtime vintage staple. Just because he deals 2 damage doesn't mean its a bad card. Following the same line of thought must mean that SFM (Squire) BoB (Expensive Savannah Lion) are not good enough to see legacy play either.

[.nemesis]

Over here in germany, there is a big wave of GW Maverick style decks. Those decks run up to 3 copies of Mindcensor maindeck because SFM-based decks have a big impact on our metagame and almost every second matchup you see at a tournament is a Stoneforge mirror match. Also, because of this wave of GW decks (it's like 1/3rd of the metagame) people play Storm again and Mindcensor is basically game over against most Storm decks if he isn't dealt with immediately. This is to be taken literally because "immediately" means "with the tutor effect on the stack". Basically, you can't combo off if your opponent has 2W open and at least 1 card in hand that you don't know. Furthermore, GW runs Mother of Runes, so the answer for Mindcensor wants to have Split Second too.

Sudden Death is a really good card for Combo players nowadays.

[CorpT]

I love Aven Mindcensor. Absolutely love it.

But it just has never worked out as well as I've wanted most of the time. There are a few subtle differences with Vendillion Clique.

1) Vendillion Clique can be used offensively. Meaning that you can use it when you want to do something on your turn that you want to make sure happens. So, if you're playing against a deck with Counterspells, you run it out at the end of their turn and see if the coast is clear. Aven Mindcensor can't do that. It is only reactive.

2) Vendillion Clique pitches to Force of Will.

3) Vendillion Clique is played with cards that can stop/slow your opponent down before you get to 3 mana. This is probably the biggest one. When you're on the draw against a SFM deck and they play a turn 2 SFM, AM is useless. Same situation with a VC and the cards around VC will likely stop it.

4) Vendillion Clique can be used to cycle cards out of your own hand.

5) AM is better against worse players. NO RUG payer taps out to play Natural Order against a deck that may have AM. The good player either waits a mana to have Bolt/Grim backup or makes sure he has FoW/Daze backup. The bad player gets blown out.

6) Sometimes AM just doesn't work. I played it against someone and tried to make their SFM useless. The card they wanted was in the top 4.

[GGoober]

Not to nitpick, but wanted to point out some other points so people don't get misleaded by thinking about things from just one perspective


I love Aven Mindcensor. Absolutely love it.

But it just has never worked out as well as I've wanted most of the time. There are a few subtle differences with Vendillion Clique.

1) Vendillion Clique can be used offensively. Meaning that you can use it when you want to do something on your turn that you want to make sure happens. So, if you're playing against a deck with Counterspells, you run it out at the end of their turn and see if the coast is clear. Aven Mindcensor can't do that. It is only reactive.

Mindcensor can most definitely be played proactively. HAving flash allows EOT Mindcensor and its effect starts applying. Sure it's better to catch them on a fetch, but doesn't mean you can't run one out against a SFM deck pro-actively.



2) Vendillion Clique pitches to Force of Will.

This has been the most hated clause I've started to experience in Legacy. Playing card X because it pitches to FoW is not a reason to playing card X over Y. Sure Clique pitches to FoW, but a deck playing Clique/Mincensor + Fow should always ensure that they have enough blue count to pitch to FoW in the first place. Same reason people always go RWM is better than Goyf because it pitches to FoW or some other examples like that. A deck with FoW already has the precondition that it needs to have FoW supported, so this statement is really starting to bug me considering we're in this format for such a long time we should already know this.



3) Vendillion Clique is played with cards that can stop/slow your opponent down before you get to 3 mana. This is probably the biggest one. When you're on the draw against a SFM deck and they play a turn 2 SFM, AM is useless. Same situation with a VC and the cards around VC will likely stop it.

I agree here. However, Clique against SFM on the draw is also a little too slow. They go turn 2 SFM, you go turn 2 nothing, turn 3 they get the Equipment in play, Clique does nothing. Clique could at least stop a turn 2 SFM on the PLAY. I do love Clique against NO though, but the same can be said for Mindcensor which also stops NO stonecold. Clique doesn't really get rid of 2x NO scenarios but Mindcensor does. This analysis is highly subjective to the matchup and scenario. Both cards are good in different ways



4) Vendillion Clique can be used to cycle cards out of your own hand.

Yes, this is very nice, especially with Karakas :O



5) AM is better against worse players. NO RUG payer taps out to play Natural Order against a deck that may have AM. The good player either waits a mana to have Bolt/Grim backup or makes sure he has FoW/Daze backup. The bad player gets blown out.
Well where's the analysis for Clique? Your opponents will have the FoW/Daze for Clique as they would for Mindcensor. The thing is, AM is just really really good against NO because it actually starts the disruption even before NO (against fetchlands etc)



6) Sometimes AM just doesn't work. I played it against someone and tried to make their SFM useless. The card they wanted was in the top 4.
Sometimes Clique doesn't work too, because they will flip the card that you just put at the bottom, or you Clique and see a hand of multiple SFM/NO. ONce again the analysis depends on the situation.

[CorpT]

Mindcensor can most definitely be played proactively. HAving flash allows EOT Mindcensor and its effect starts applying. Sure it's better to catch them on a fetch, but doesn't mean you can't run one out against a SFM deck pro-actively.

It loses a lot of value this way though. It opens AM up to removal which just makes it a 2/1 for 3...


This has been the most hated clause I've started to experience in Legacy. Playing card X because it pitches to FoW is not a reason to playing card X over Y. Sure Clique pitches to FoW, but a deck playing Clique/Mincensor + Fow should always ensure that they have enough blue count to pitch to FoW in the first place. Same reason people always go RWM is better than Goyf because it pitches to FoW or some other examples like that. A deck with FoW already has the precondition that it needs to have FoW supported, so this statement is really starting to bug me considering we're in this format for such a long time we should already know this.

It's a valid point though. FoW decks have been edging lower and lower on the Blue count and VC as both a pro-active good attacker and a Fow pitch card is very relevant.

Believe me, I love AM. It's just been frustrating because he never seems to work out when I want him to. He's either a turn too late, removed or misses entirely. Flying and Flash are great abilities on a disruptive creature, but I've always ended up disappointed in AM when I've played him. It's a little strange because Gaddok Teeg has always been solid for me and they do similar things.

[TossUsToLions]

Believe me, I love AM. It's just been frustrating because he never seems to work out when I want him to. He's either a turn too late, removed or misses entirely. Flying and Flash are great abilities on a disruptive creature, but I've always ended up disappointed in AM when I've played him. It's a little strange because Gaddok Teeg has always been solid for me and they do similar things.

I can agree with this. I play Maverick and test heavily against NO RUG. Even in that matchup (tons of fetches, GSZ, Natural Order), sometimes he just does not work out. He is a bit too slow and feels a little clunky. Like you said, he is a turn too late almost every single time. Other than that, in the matchups he's good against, other than storm, the opponent will have removal for him, unless you have Mother of Runes out to protect it (in which case he is coming down t3 instead of t2, which doesn't help against Stoneforge Mystic).

On the other hand, if your opponent doesn't expect him (Maverick still isn't even considered to be a real deck by some here in America), he can be backbreaking. I've had a few games where I cast him in response to an opponent playing NO, and just winning the game because of it. The look on my opponents' faces is priceless!

[Malchar]

It loses a lot of value this way though. It opens AM up to removal which just makes it a 2/1 for 3...

In fact, it's always vulnerable to removal, even if played in response to a fetch/sfm. If they're about to search, and you flash in the aven, they can just kill it at instant speed and then proceed with the search. Compare this to vendilion clique's ability which still works even if they kill it.

[John Cox]

I think your comparing them too literally. Aven Mindcensor is a CA/ tempo generator where as clique is a one shot tool. Even if mindcensor gets plowed and they keep searching you got a one for one trade, -cliqued is that at best. Mindcensor lets you build tempo and win the long game.

[CorpT]

I think your comparing them too literally. Aven Mindcensor is a CA/ tempo generator where as clique is a one shot tool. Even if mindcensor gets plowed and they keep searching you got a one for one trade, -cliqued is that at best. Mindcensor lets you build tempo and win the long game.

See the sig. I have no idea what you're talking about when you say that AM lets you build tempo and win the long game or how it generates you CA.

[John Cox]

See the sig. I have no idea what you're talking about when you say that AM lets you build tempo and win the long game or how it generates you CA.
Aven mindcensor shuts off more cards in your opponents deck than the one card aven mindcensor is, over the few turns it's out they're will be dead fetchlands and other cards sitting in your opponents hand and and on their board. When my one Aven Mindcensor shuts of your fetches, Natural Order and Green sun zenith that's card advantage. When their deck is that crippled pulling ahead of a them isn't difficult.

[CorpT]

A) That's not Card Advantage.
B) I've seen plenty of fetchlands used successfully with AM in play.
C) Your AM has lived longer than any AM I've ever seen.

Regardless, the only thing you've "proven" is that AM is ok when you're ahead, if it lives, and if they haven't drawn Goyfs, Cliques, Grim, Bolt or Fire/Ice.

[Octopusman]

A) That's not Card Advantage.
B) I've seen plenty of fetchlands used successfully with AM in play.
C) Your AM has lived longer than any AM I've ever seen.

Regardless, the only thing you've "proven" is that AM is ok when you're ahead, if it lives, and if they haven't drawn Goyfs, Cliques, Grim, Bolt or Fire/Ice.

I think we are referring to virtual card advantage. You're not drawing cards, but you're turning some of theirs off as mentioned.

Sure, searches can still work with Mindcensor. It's a great effect because it is one sided and even if it fails, it is still pretty strong. How strong? Viable strong? I suppose that is what the thread is for.

Not everything gets removed. I often played AM alongside removal and countermagic. Keeping an AM around isn't the most impossible game state.
It carries equips like a champ too.

Aven Mindcensor has been a love/hate card for me. I hate it because I'm not certain (even with thorough use) that it's effect is strong enough to warrant inclusion in the agro/control decks I was playing. I'm looking forward to hopefully using it again soon because I believe that it's powerful. Maybe the current Meta is a good time for it. I always wanted it when I didn't draw it. However, at 3CMC it was hard to devote a lot of slots to it.

Comparing Mindcensor to Clique is a decent exercise. I think the argument boils down to, if you could only play one or the other, which would you choose? People choose Clique because it "races" and because it will affect things right now and discredit Mindcensor by believing that its effect is weaker, it's more likely to be removed, and can't kill opponents as quickly.
Perhaps they are right.

I feel it could be a good time for Mincensor now. I am glad that this thread exists and hopefully more testing will be posted here.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In Maverick you can fairly reliably drop AM on turn 2, and I don't think "It can be killed" is a great argument, especially when simultaneously defending Clique. And certainly not in a deck with 25 or more creatures.

On the other hand I am somewhat skeptical of the card's power because it's a pretty weak flyer for three mana if you don't get much use out of its abilities. I can see it in metas where the mirror and storm come up a lot.

I'm not really sure what other deck wants it though, aside from like Angel Stompy if that's even still a thing.

[overpowered]

Generating "tempo" at a 1:1 trade isn't a realistic argument, especially considering that they've paid 1 mana to your 3. Clique denies card quality, which is an important factor in a meta littered with "brainstorm" and other card quality devices (top, jace, etc.). I think that it's important to note that an unanswered mindcensor denies card quality considering the immense amount of fetches, tutors and other tricks that decks play in order to GAIN card quality, but if answered immediately it has nearly zero impact on the game where the Clique at least has an EtB (Enter the Battlefield) effect.In many other scenarios, the Clique can deny the opponent the card they're looking to use unless they can brainstorm in response. The AM can only deny effects in a mainly reactive way.

The comparison is ultimately in the favor of Vendillion Clique imo. It is not a fair comparison considering the cards have different effects on the game. For the sake of saving this thread and any further discussion of the mentioned comparisons, Clique is a stronger card in nature. That being said, the AM is good in the right deck. The problem then becomes finding him a home rather than finding out if another 3 drop is better. Let's continue this discussion in a more constructive way:


G/W Mav having been mentioned, Stax is another shell where the AM shines and can be dropped on turns one or two. However, the lack of other threats makes him a prime target for removal. What other decks is his ability strong in? Death and Taxes? Their three slot is already stuffed with Flickerwisp and Mangara. Also, with Stonecloaker for GY hate in some metas makes AM the weakest of the 4. I do not think the card has enough overall power to reliably hinder the opponent in the way that many other cards do... Which is unfortunate because I love the card.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean I think except for having the extra point of power, which is important, Clique compares reasonably to Mindcensor but in most decks, I think that's more of an argument against Clique than for Mindcensor. Like they're both playable, but 3cc utility evasion dorks aren't the most busted things going on in Legacy. At that cost you could be dropping 7/7 utility monsters.

[CorpT]

Every time someone says that AM can be used in a GW Maverick deck, I can't help but notice that everything AM does, Teeg does better.

1) More reliably cast turn 2 (and can helped by Mom on turn 2)
2) Stops more things (Jace, FoW, GSZ & NO vs GSZ & NO)
3) Dies to the same removal
4) Stops other decks as well (Stax, Spiral)

It just seems like one of those situations where in the decks he makes sense in, there is already a better card.

In DnT: Mangara/Flickerwisp
In GW Maverick: Teeg
In UW Tempo: Vendillion Clique

Where does that leave him?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Every time someone says that AM can be used in a GW Maverick deck, I can't help but notice that everything AM does, Teeg does better.

...

No?

GT doesn't fly, shuts down your own GSZ + any NO/Wave/Planeswalkers you're running, doesn't hurt mana development, doesn't stop SFM or Matron or a Tendrils/HighTide deck tutoring for a Chain of Vapor.

I mean this is an obviously flawed comparison, whatever the card's sum strengths.

[TsumiBand]

It's not entirely unpossible to catch a fetchland with Mindcensor, but if that's why you're playing him you're doing it weird.

Mindcensor with MoR in play has guns against decks which would actually want to get rid of it, so that's something, but it's going to be hard to make the argument that it gives you card advantage unless the opponent's tutor effects are so narrow that they can't find something that fits the requirements in the top 4. Fetchlands were mentioned; I don't think that GSZ actually gets 'turned off' as bad as it seems like it would, I think Teeg would be much better at that. Obviously the good Black tutors still grab a card; suffice to say it just makes life sort of awkward for the opponent, unless it doesn't.

[nyoro]

Every time someone says that AM can be used in a GW Maverick deck, I can't help but notice that everything AM does, Teeg does better.

1) More reliably cast turn 2 (and can helped by Mom on turn 2)
2) Stops more things (Jace, FoW, GSZ & NO vs GSZ & NO)
3) Dies to the same removal
4) Stops other decks as well (Stax, Spiral)

It just seems like one of those situations where in the decks he makes sense in, there is already a better card.


...you can't be serious.

there are benefits AM provides that teeg doesn't in maverick in which other people have addressed in the thread. It also stops intuition when SnT hive mind is becoming prevalent, and it can randomly manascrew people when they pop their fetch lands.

[CorpT]

...you can't be serious.

there are benefits AM provides that teeg doesn't in maverick in which other people have addressed in the thread. It also stops intuition when SnT hive mind is becoming prevalent, and it can randomly manascrew people when they pop their fetch lands.

AM doesn't stop fetches the way you want it to. If that's why you're playing it, just play something like Suppression Field or Stifle. Other than that, AM turns off Intuition. Is that it? It turns off one of the tutor effects one deck runs that they don't even really need to use to win.

FYI: this is why Teeg sees play and AM doesn't. Teeg stops GSZ and NO. AM doesn't. Teeg stops Jace and FoW. AM doesn't.

[John Cox]

AM also deals well with Stoneforge Mystic. The concept that Vendilion Clique is bigger and thus more of a threat is interesting because if I was worried about a 7 turn clock I would have ample time to swords or bolt it.
I don't think of either of these as my goto win conditions and for that reason I can care less about their power and toughness. What I see when I look at these is:
Card A) Your opponents search effects become nearly useless
Card B) Target player cycles their best card
I like "Card A" better.

[CorpT]

So have you guys had a lot of success with AM that no one else is having? Because every time I play it, it is a disappointment. It's like Jotun Grunt. At first glance, the card looks amazing. A 4/4 for 2! And it can screw with their graveyard! How can you beat that.

Except that Grunt never does that. It either can't be played early, doesn't last long enough, doesn't damage their graveyard enough or shrinks your own Goyf. This is where theorycraft stops being useful and testing kicks in.

For me, testing has revealed that AM is unreliable and often a turn too late. Testing has also revealed that Teeg is very, very good against a lot of decks and Vendillion Clique is very good. Teeg reliably shuts off cards I want shut off. It comes down when I want it. It can be tutored with GSZ. Clique is good whenever I need it. I get it's effect immediately. It pitches to Force.

So, unless you're having crazy success with AM that no one else is... I'm just not seeing it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

AM doesn't stop fetches the way you want it to. If that's why you're playing it, just play something like Suppression Field or Stifle. Other than that, AM turns off Intuition. Is that it? It turns off one of the tutor effects one deck runs that they don't even really need to use to win.

FYI: this is why Teeg sees play and AM doesn't. Teeg stops GSZ and NO. AM doesn't. Teeg stops Jace and FoW. AM doesn't.

Teeg sees play because you can grab it with GSZ. That's it. That's the entire reason.

It's really weird that you're following this line of argument since the two really don't have much overlap.


So, unless you're having crazy success with AM that no one else is... I'm just not seeing it.

Lists with AM have been doing pretty well in Europe. It's probably the most popular of the non-core cards.

[kiblast]

For me, testing has revealed that AM is unreliable and often a turn too late. Testing has also revealed that Teeg is very, very good against a lot of decks and Vendillion Clique is very good. Teeg reliably shuts off cards I want shut off. It comes down when I want it. It can be tutored with GSZ. Clique is good whenever I need it. I get it's effect immediately. It pitches to Force.

So, unless you're having crazy success with AM that no one else is... I'm just not seeing it.

Yeah you probably don't see that is one of the best, if not the best, hatebear currently available in legacy.

For example, I mainly play landeed and I hope that all the maverick players are like you because, frankly, I almost don't give a f- to Gaddock, which can be dealt in a million ways; but an AM turn 2 in response to a fetch is substantially gg unless I find a way to deal with it in 2-3 turns.



FYI: this is why Teeg sees play and AM doesn't. Teeg stops GSZ and NO. AM doesn't. Teeg stops Jace and FoW. AM doesn't.

Yeah, except that the decks playing NO (ex: NOrug), or Jace/Fow (ex.Landeed, UWx) run a shitload of answers to your 2/2 hatebear. Instead failing a Fetchland while having one of your duals Wasted, now that is a risky situation for the Rug/Landeed/UWx player.

Against non control decks, such as Stoneblade fish builds, or against Goblins, or Storm, or GSZ.dec mirrors, forcing your opponent to search for something (which he probably plays as a 1-2of) in the top 4 cards instead of 50 is very, very strong. Blanking a GSZ@2 at instant speed? no goyf this turn? sign me up.

[nyoro]

AM doesn't stop fetches the way you want it to. If that's why you're playing it, just play something like Suppression Field or Stifle. Other than that, AM turns off Intuition. Is that it? It turns off one of the tutor effects one deck runs that they don't even really need to use to win.

FYI: this is why Teeg sees play and AM doesn't. Teeg stops GSZ and NO. AM doesn't. Teeg stops Jace and FoW. AM doesn't.

Actually, stopping that one card alone means a lot because it's a major part of hive mind's engine. do you know how much consistency these show & tell decks lose if they can't cast intuition? They can only ponder or brainstorm to dig like crazy, and you just mental misstep those cantrips so they will never find what they need. Intuition pretty much goes into every show & tell decks and other combo decks, it's the 2nd best card in combo decks that aren't storms.

AM stopping kotr from activating and sfm from searching in a mirror match is also huge. You have no idea how shitty these cards are if they can't use their abilities, which gaddock teeg couldn't stop.