RW Moon

[4eak]

I had been toying with a white-splashed Dragon Stompy (SFM Package is worth testing in almost all non-tribal decks that win with creatures). Chalice of the Void cuts off major red and white spells, and so I tried without it. Pretty interesting.

Rough draft list:

// Mana Sources - 25
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Plateau
2 Plains
2 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Chrome Mox

// SFM Package - 7
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

// Moon - 6
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Blood Moon

// Good-Stuff Permanents - 14
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Tempo Control - 8
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares



peace,
4eak

[Tacosnape]

I like this list. I've also come to the conclusion that Chalice Aggro would be better off ditching Chalices for Mental Missteps in most situations. Unlike you, I've just been too lazy to actually apply this.

I feel like I want a little more clock with this, though. Possibly a second Batterskull. Any drawback to doing so, given the Moxes and Tombs?

And how necessary is Simian Spirit Guide given how low this deck's curve is? Unlike Dragon Stompy, this deck has the potential to battle in a "Cards matter" game if the Moons/Revokers don't outright win. Seems to me like this is a deck where I wouldn't want to see them.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I think this looks pretty interesting too. And not to just play "I agree with Taco," but SSG seems like he might be better off as a different use of space. Personally, I think Aven Mindcensor could be pretty hot in something like this, and I might try something like dropping the Spirit Guides and adding the fourth Ancient Tomb, plus a couple of those dudes.

[nayon]

Ajani Vengeant seems like it can be interesting.

[baghdadbob]

I built a deck similiar to rw dragon stompy a while back with moderate success. I'm not 100% on the list but I believe it looked something like this...

2-3x Koth
1-2x Ajani Vengant
2x Wrath Of God
4x Blood Moon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Chalice
4x Crucible
4x Firespout
2?x Chrome Mox
3-4x Mox Diamond
2?x O-ring
2?x Magus Of The Moon
other stuff that I can't remember right now.......

Sb
2x Anarchy
2x Boil
3x Red Elemental Blast
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Serenity

Positives

-Moon effects are incredible in legacy
-Strong s/b, this deck plays ALOT of hosers
-Aggro match is usually easy with 6 m/b sweepers

Negatives

-Bad top decks (could be changed with some work?)
-Tempo decks are a hard match especially those that play heavy discard

Your decks look more boros aggro esque then dragon stompy so this maybe the wrong thread for my deck, if so sorry.

[nayon]

I really wanna put blue in here but I guess that's too greedy.

[4eak]

I'm also trying Aether Vial.


I feel like I want a little more clock with this, though. Possibly a second Batterskull. Any drawback to doing so, given the Moxes and Tombs?

:w::w: is difficult to achieve, making Elspeth and Mirran Crusader (great cards for this deck, excepting manacosts) unlikable. Batterskull doesn't have that problem, and I have been testing it in multiples already. It may end up going to 2 or even 3 (I've not tried 4, but you know what? I'm gonna. It looks terrible on paper, but I want to try it). The deck wants finishers. 3 Might sound high, but since it is the most common SFM target for this deck, by far, and you want to get one into play asap and with consistency, I think it is acceptable.


Simian Spirit Guide

I'm on the fence. You really, really want to go T2 Moon when you can. SSG is a threat (a mana inefficient one, but when he's not used for mana, it is because you already have it), and does fine equipped.

When I take it out for testing, I'll be putting in more lands/Mox.

My worry is that permanent mana sources are generally a bad top deck at mid and late game. SSG isn't that bad.

I do like moving away from the capricious instability of Stompy/Stax decks which mull into oblivion far too often and pin their hopes on a single opening spell too much. They don't win normal attrition wars, and perhaps moving away from that 'combo' mentality will produce better results. Removing SSG might do that.


I think Aven Mindcensor could be pretty hot in something like this,

I've been trying it out. Pretty sweet in some matches. What I like about it is that it gives you some form of "Moon-like" redundancy without having to run more Moon effects (having too many sucks). T2 Aven is cool, often stopping fetchers from getting the basics they need before you land a Moon, and sometimes being a big boost to tempo (and CA) when they blank on a fetch.

It stops other things too, which I like. Opposing SFM is a pain in my ass, and Revoker can sometimes be too symmetrical.


Ajani Vengeant seems like it can be interesting.

I will try it. It is easier to cast than Elspeth. I think it is substantially weaker though.


Your decks look more boros aggro esque then dragon stompy so this maybe the wrong thread for my deck, if so sorry

I agree it is a shift away from Dragon stompy. Your deck looks like a shift away also, but not in the direction of aggro, but rather control.


I really wanna put blue in here but I guess that's too greedy.

Full-time Moon decks really can't afford more than 2 colors.



peace,
4eak

[NecroYawgmoth]

4eak...

Why you do this?
Steal my precious idea... T.T

I had the same thoughts of Stoneforge and Moon-Screw to just win and very strong in one deck.
I was trying and testing RW moon for 3 weeks now, in my secret lair...
Now you come up and ruin my plan for dominating Legacy with it, by having the same idea Q_q

->lazy me for not posting it<- *sigh*


It was more a White Chalice Aggro with Stoneforge, Aven Mindcensor and Revokers main, only splashing red for 8 Moons. [No SSGs]. Problem was to find a finisher, so I chose Lodestone Golem, because I can pay him with red mana.

Manabase was something like:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Arid Mesa
4 Plateau
2 Mountain
5 Plains
4 Mox Diamond

I was also looking for an artifact that could provide W other than Mox Diamond... Anyone have any good ideas here, which are better than Boros Signet?

[Koby]

I wonder if Isochron Scepter could be incorporated for a long-game card advantage (severly lacking in :r::w:). I'm not sure how the Scepter/Chant deck did at the SCG Open, but there's room for 2 mana instants. Helix/Bolt on a Scepter is still a 7 turn clock, and backed with Moon, doesn't care about how you cast it.

[Zirath]

I can't say I haven't thought about a similar deck as well:

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Magma Jet
2 Fireblast
4 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Chrome Mox

1 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Plateau
2 Plains
3 Mountain

[baghdadbob]

@Zirath

You are running 7 ways to gain life with heavy burn. I would seriously consider playing 4x Pop either s/b or main. Card is super good at ending games that have gone on for too long with a control deck. I'd probably drop the 2x main Fireblasts and maybe Elspeth and one of the Magma Jets, if you want to put them in the mainboard.

[eq.firemind]

How about Dragon Stompy's new friend Moltensteel Dragon as a finisher?
It costs no colored mana and with 6 strong lifegain cards (4 Mystic, 1 Jitte, 1 Batterskull) it could become a monster of clock. Like, they dealed with you primal win condition (Mystic => stuff), you gained some life in process and then just drop this and turn you excess of life into evasive fiery doom. And you have Moms and Missteps, i.e. pretty nice chances to protect it.
But be carefull about total number of cards to pitch to Chrome Mox.

[NecroYawgmoth]

But be carefull about total number of cards to pitch to Chrome Mox.


That's the reason why I think we should up the landcount and play Mox Diamond here.

[Zirath]

Price could be pretty devastating; I will try it out for sure and see if it does what I want it to do. I'm worried it will really only be good in the match ups where Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon is already good however. In addition, Fireblast + Magus allows me to turn all of my lands into to food for blast.

Should I try Ancient Tomb? It seems like it could be really good in some situations, combined with the fact that I am packing burn.

@NecroYawgmoth: I actually disagree with adding Mox Diamond. There is no way to abuse the excess lands and many times we will probably just draw only mana sources and run out of gas very fast. I'd rather run 22-23 mana sources and more business. A friend of mine had the same problem with BW Stoneblade.

[Jabari]

I've been wanting to build something along these lines for awhile now, but I do have some questions about the original list posted.

4eak: Why the 4-2 Magus-Moon split as opposed to Moon-Magus? I feel like more decks can answer magus than can answer Moon. Yes Magus provides somewhat of a clock, I still feel like the resiliency might be more valuable.

Also why no love for Figure of Destiny? Would it maybe be a better fit than Mom? I say this with the idea of a 4-2 Moon-Magus split, allowing you to focus less on protecting your Magus. With this in mind would Mental Misstep still be needed? Or should that slot just become Lightning Bolt?

[NecroYawgmoth]

@NecroYawgmoth: I actually disagree with adding Mox Diamond. There is no way to abuse the excess lands and many times we will probably just draw only mana sources and run out of gas very fast. I'd rather run 22-23 mana sources and more business. A friend of mine had the same problem with BW Stoneblade.

Problem IMO is, that you mostly have R mana if a Moon is resolved, and you haven't drawn a Plains yet...
It is quite frustrating to resolve a Moon 1st or 2nd turn, and not seeing anything that could make W in the next 6 turns. [let's take a 3 Lands, Mox, Moon, 2 random W creatures/whatever cards scenario for example] Tomb -> Diamond -> Moon, and a 2nd turn Stoneforge or Mindcensor whatever [W has the better creatures] is much better, than playing more R cards to imprint in Mox, because we need constantly R and W IMO... with many R cards for Mox, we could just go and play DS...

[Zirath]

Problem IMO is, that you mostly have R mana if a Moon is resolved, and you haven't drawn a Plains yet...
It is quite frustrating to resolve a Moon 1st or 2nd turn, and not seeing anything that could make W in the next 6 turns. [let's take a 3 Lands, Mox, Moon, 2 random W creatures/whatever cards scenario for example] Tomb -> Diamond -> Moon, and a 2nd turn Stoneforge or Mindcensor whatever [W has the better creatures] is much better, than playing more R cards to imprint in Mox, because we need constantly R and W IMO... with many R cards for Mox, we could just go and play DS...

I totally agree with that. You can be completely color screwed out of white sources if you play it out wrong. That's part of the reason I am running Lightning Helix so if my hand is strong but I am having trouble getting the right colors with it, I can make my mox do more work for me. I am actually thinking of going back to Figure of Destiny (I had it at one point) just so I can get more value out of Mox.

Mox Diamond has an enormous mana requirement. We don't get enough of a benefit out of running 26 mana sources without Loam, KotR or Crucible. Maybe if we ran Crucible and attempted to use Wastelands to go for the full color screw in case Moon can be dealt with.

I guess my list isn't build to cast turn 1 Magus with ease, so I give myself enough time to play Stoneforge first. Should I run Tomb? I know its devastating since I used to play DS but is it better than just running out Stoneforge and following with Magus?

[Mr Pirakos]

I feel like I want a little more clock with this, though.

What about replacing SSG with Mirran Crusader? Fixing the mana sources to enable double white would be tricky but double strike is never a joke when you can tutor/cheat equipment into play.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I am testing a list towards the Steel Stompy direction. Huge threats are not mandatory in a deck so accessible to equipments. Etched Champion and Lodestone Golem are the two threats I like most in Steel Stompy and they work great here. I never liked Master of Etherium and Magus is an easy replacement. Also, Phyrexian Metamorph is too good to be excluded. Sideboard addresses yard decks, combo decks and mono-color aggro decks. The plan is to sub out Moons by Kavu, Reinforcement and Sword, but I need to test against Merfolks, Goblins, D&T, Black aggro to tell if it is a right call as they all play Wasteland and many play manlands.


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Ancient Den
4 Great Furnace
2 Plains
2 Plateau

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Etched Champion
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Metamorph

4 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Cranial Plating
2 Blood Moon
1 Batterskull

SB:
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Thorn of Amethyst
Sundial of the Infinite
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Flametongue Kavu
2 Timely Reinforcements

[NecroYawgmoth]

DERP... stupid forum...
erased my written stuff...
All again in short:


I like that list.

I would exchange the artifact lands with 4 Arid Mesa and 2 Mountains for a higher out on 1st turn Moon.

28 Artifacts should still be enough with Champion.

Exchange Plating for SoF&I then.

Inkmoth and Moon look really antisynergistic together, maybe exchange them also.

[tsabo_tavoc]

DERP... stupid forum...
erased my written stuff...
All again in short:


I like that list.

I would exchange the artifact lands with 4 Arid Mesa and 2 Mountains for a higher out on 1st turn Moon.

28 Artifacts should still be enough with Champion.

Exchange Plating for SoF&I then.

Inkmoth and Moon look really antisynergistic together, maybe exchange them also.

I learned a few lessons and started Ctrl+C longer replies.

Many ideas were imported from Steel Stompy and 6 Artifact lands is the golden number there (a balance between speed and hate resistance). As many as 28 nonland artifacts sound, 8 of them cost 4+ (although Phyrexian Metamorph effectively costs 3, we normally do not play it early), but we want Etched Champion online as early as possible. Moreover, playing less artifact lands renders Mox Opal far less useful. I don't understand why Artifact lands would impair the counts of turn1 Moon, as 1 Mox Diamond must be involved and there would be hence no color issue. There are 12 red sources and 12 white sources in my list, while your suggestion would bring up the numbers to 14 each. If ever there would be color issue, Inkmoth Nexus is the card to replace.

You are right that Inkmoth and Moon do not work together at all. However, once Moon is down, you should be ahead and the lack of manland does not matter. Still, a Nexus under Moon is as good as a Plateau. More often than not, the Moon gets countered or removed and then you won't regret having the Inkmoth. The beauty of Inkmoth is beyond being a flyer, an early defense and a fast clock with equipment, it taps itself to enable Metalcraft while dodging artifact hates!

I tested 18 preboard games with NO RUG and went 8-10, a bit better than the percentage as I tested UB Steel Stompy VS NO RUG. Moon won a couple games, but most of the time, RUG worked around it.

[NecroYawgmoth]

okay, the Artifactland idea was a brainfart... I thought too much in DS ways, where you can play a turn 1 Moon with 1 Mountain ^^

Nevertheless, I'd up the Moons to 4 [cuz they autowin], and cut the Inkmoth Nexus for something other.

I have no playing experience with Champions, but they seem to be really good...

Do you have experience with any other common MUs with your list? [mainly Merfolk and Zoo]

I can't reallife test this deck, [only cockatrice] but I really want to build it, [no Diamonds and Plateaus] because I have an Angel Stompyish deck, and a Dragon Stompy, and it would be nice, if I can combine their Power =P

I will test a few things in the next time, and hope others here will help too ;)

[tsabo_tavoc]

Nevertheless, I'd up the Moons to 4 [cuz they autowin], and cut the Inkmoth Nexus for something other.

I have no playing experience with Champions, but they seem to be really good...

Do you have experience with any other common MUs with your list? [mainly Merfolk and Zoo]

I can't reallife test this deck, [only cockatrice] but I really want to build it, [no Diamonds and Plateaus] because I have an Angel Stompyish deck, and a Dragon Stompy, and it would be nice, if I can combine their Power =P

I will test a few things in the next time, and hope others here will help too ;)

I have just tested 12 preboard games against Big Zoo and went 7-5, which is a bit of surprise to me. Most of the games took quite some time, as is common for Midrange against Midrange. The Zoo list packs 4 Green Sun + 2 Qasali which are just mean to the deck. 3 Knights + 4 Wasteland ended a few games when Moons were not on the battlefield. Fast beats from Zoo finished some games but Stompy stabilised at 1 life in 2 of the games. Stompy has plenty of tools in this matchup, Chalice, Revoker and Moon have high impacts, but the MVP has to be Etched Champion, who stalls the early game, gains life (with Batterskull or Jitte) in the middle and seals the deal with Plating. Needless to say, it is SFM who always searches for the right tool.

Moons worked better than I expected. Many games just started from turn 1-2 Moon with the opponent having no opportunity to fetch for basics. Even when basic Forest and Plains are on the other side of the table, Moons prevent Wasteland eating your manabase. I actually subbed out 3 Phyrexian Metamorphs for 2 Blood Moon and 1 Plateau in the later half of the games. I liked 8 Moons in the Big Zoo matchup, but I am still debating on the number, as 21 creatures are barely enough.

The slightly favourable results really boosted my confidence. I am very interested in testing other MUs, maybe we can arrange a time to test on Cockatrice. The decklist is not very far from optimum, but still has a few questionable slots. 4 Inkmoth Nexus with 8 Moons are not very hot, but the slots belong to Lands to feed Mox Diamond. Mox Diamond is the core of the deck, but Plateau is definitely replaceable, say, by Battlefield Forge (don't run Glimmervoid by the way).

[NecroYawgmoth]

If we take the best out of Dragon, Angel and Steel Stompy, and try to merge it, we would get a core like this:

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of The Moon
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire & Ice / Plating [maybe both]
4 Etched Champion
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

39-40 cards

We need enough lands to feed Mox so lets say +15 Lands [rough number] (Artifact Lands, Plateaus, Arid Mesas, Battlefield Forge)

leaves 5-6 cards...

The most important thing is to optimize the manabase, now...


What absolutely needs to be in the deck in the last 5 slots? [more creatures IMO]...

Do we need Simian Sprit Guide? I think not. What about Aven Mindcensor? ...or is he to small?

[tsabo_tavoc]

leaves 5-6 cards...

The most important thing is to optimize the manabase, now...


What absolutely needs to be in the deck in the last 5 slots? [more creatures IMO]...

Do we need Simian Sprit Guide? I think not. What about Aven Mindcensor? ...or is he to small?

I agree with the core. 4 of the remaining slots are Lodestone Golem. People even attempted to fit it to Dragon Stompy despite some obvious dissynergy, namely being an Artifact and having a symmetric effect. Here, being an Artifact is a plus and the core only has 12 nonartifact cards. Golem, at the high end of the curve, is a mediocre beater (next to Champion) but the disruption is very valuable. Until now, I have not seen any threat beating him for the slot.

SSG is a high loss, medium reward card. We only benefit from it for landing a first turn Moon, or saving a critical spell from Daze. Otherwise, it had better sit on a Chrome Mox, which we don't play.

Aven Mindcensor is a good card, but there is a reason why it has not seen much play. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21531-SCD-Aven-Mindcensor
Here, it is worse than Moons and too bad it is not an Artifact. Well, at least it flies (the deck has no flier), and I would be happy to find some slots for it, were it an Artifact.

I tried cutting Inkmoth Nexus and has not missed it much so far. My current list looks like

39 core
4 Ancient Den
4 Great Furnace
3 Arid Mesa
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Plains / Karakas / Inkmoth Nexus
1 Mox Opal
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

8 artifact lands is fine as Null Rod and Energy Flux have disappeared from SB, and one deserves losing to Deed while playing 8 Moons.

I played a few more games against Big Zoo and the MU was about even (9 win, 8 loss). I plan to test it against a few tempo decks (Team America, U Zoo).

[NecroYawgmoth]

Well, I like Phyrexian Metamorph at least at a 2 off, [3 is more likely], because it can copy Skulls and other useful stuff, and is an out against Progenitus and the like...

I am going to try 21 Lands with no Mox Opal, because Opal does less than I thought it woud do.


EDIT: Tested a few matches against Folks, Energy Flux is horrible... No chance against it with so many Artifacts =(
Also played Lodestones in this deck today for the first time, and it was always worse than Metamorph IMO...

[tsabo_tavoc]

Well, I like Phyrexian Metamorph at least at a 2 off, [3 is more likely], because it can copy Skulls and other useful stuff, and is an out against Progenitus and the like...

I am going to try 21 Lands with no Mox Opal, because Opal does less than I thought it woud do.


EDIT: Tested a few matches against Folks, Energy Flux is horrible... No chance against it with so many Artifacts =(
Also played Lodestones in this deck today for the first time, and it was always worse than Metamorph IMO...

How about the preboard games against Merfolk, are they somehow favored? (Steel Stompy used to have a favorable MU against Merfolk). Also, not all Merfolk builds have Energy Flux, at least, none from the 3 decks that top16ed SCG Pittsburgh.

I tested 40 preboard games against Team America (G Thompson's build) and ended with a 19 - 21 record. Moons and SFM are stellar against them, but Chalice is crappy and their disruptions can be very harsh. I am brainstorming which cards can help the tempo MUs from the SB as the postboard matches get more difficult as they board out dead cards and bring in relevant removals.

As for Golem VS Metamorph, the real con of Golem is its higher cost and starters with multiple Golems are often mulled. I am considering a 3/2 split instead of the 4/1. I decided to use a Mountain in the flexible land slot, and 15 red sources and 15 white sources are plenty.