[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

[Bobmans]

I understand the the draw 7 effect of Griselbrand is treated as 7 distinct draws so that each draw may be taken from the library or replaced for a dredge. One thing I'm curious about is how the draw 7 is represented on the stack and whether you can cast instants or activate abilities between the draws. For example, if I've already dredged 3 cards using Griselbrands ability (meaning I have another 4 draws) can I use Phantasmagorian to dump my hand back into my graveyard to use for my remaining Griselbrand draw/dredges? I want to say yes but I can't point to anywhere in the rules where this is addressed.

You can't do other interaction then draw 7 times. Like draw, draw, draw, draw, draw, draw, draw. The only thing is replace each draw by dredge. And do that for each draw induvidually. But no interference until the draw seven is completely resolved. You can, however, choose to return a dredger to your hand that was put in the graveyard during a previous draw from the same resolving draw 7.

[easysantiago]

I haven't heard of or seen Manaless posting results lately, and I have been on a summer-long hiatus from MTG myself. Is everyone still pushing the deck?

[DarkJester]

I haven't heard of or seen Manaless posting results lately, and I have been on a summer-long hiatus from MTG myself. Is everyone still pushing the deck?

Yeah, still playing this beast, but switching to LED-Dredge from time to time. Also took a summerbreak from Magic. When I play Manaless I try to improve the version with FoW and Shoal against RiP/Storm.

[Shade909]

I haven't heard of or seen Manaless posting results lately, and I have been on a summer-long hiatus from MTG myself. Is everyone still pushing the deck?

Still playing, just nothing new to report

Still working on my list from last page, hoping to take it to some (fairly small) tournaments in late August/September so will hopefully have some news then

[easysantiago]

I am glad to hear that from both of you! I am looking forward to trying out the blue variant starting in September. I plan to dabble with LEDredge after a few more months of strictly playing Manaless.

Shade909: any length report of the upcoming tournament would be much appreciated.

[Daize]

Just a question in general: I see what game 2/3 strategies e for siding in stuff, but I fail to spot easy siding-out cards. The main-deck seems to be pretty rigid. E.g. if you want to side in Shoals, what would you take out? So much in this deck seems mandatory to play. And getting a list over 60 cards only makes it harder to get to those cards.

[meffeo]

It depends on the version you're playing. If you're following the Griselbrand route, then board out the combo pieces and you'll find 8 free slots for your backup armory.

16 blue cards are enough.

[DarkJester]

Just a question in general: I see what game 2/3 strategies e for siding in stuff, but I fail to spot easy siding-out cards. The main-deck seems to be pretty rigid. E.g. if you want to side in Shoals, what would you take out? So much in this deck seems mandatory to play. And getting a list over 60 cards only makes it harder to get to those cards.

It depends on your list. For example: I am playing with 4 Maindeck Chancellor of the Annex to have another out against a turn 1 Deathrite. When I am boarding FoW and Shoal to fight Rest in Peace I tend to take out the Chancellors first, then maybe some number of Dread Returns, maybe the Flayer. Sometimes I cut one Nether Shadow if I really need the slots. Against Storm, where Chancellors and Countermagic are good I take out the Shadows first most of the time, because they thend to be too slow. Like the poster before me wrote: It all depends on your list and the particular MU.

Cheers.

[Daize]

It depends on your list. For example: I am playing with 4 Maindeck Chancellor of the Annex to have another out against a turn 1 Deathrite. When I am boarding FoW and Shoal to fight Rest in Peace I tend to take out the Chancellors first, then maybe some number of Dread Returns, maybe the Flayer. Sometimes I cut one Nether Shadow if I really need the slots. Against Storm, where Chancellors and Countermagic are good I take out the Shadows first most of the time, because they thend to be too slow. Like the poster before me wrote: It all depends on your list and the particular MU.

Cheers.

Mmm interesting points, specifically the Dread Returns. I'm still figuring out how to get Chancellors in the blue version of the deck, if possible at all. It feels kind of wanting-it-all.

[DarkJester]

Mmm interesting points, specifically the Dread Returns. I'm still figuring out how to get Chancellors in the blue version of the deck, if possible at all. It feels kind of wanting-it-all.

Hey, I want it all is a nice Queen-Song, so there is nothing bad about it. ;)
It's not that hard. Just play the defensive stuff in the board, when your meta is more DRS-Style-Decks.

4 FoW
4 Shoal
7 Something (Faeries come to mind, DR-Targets [Elesh, Ashen Rider], Traps, Leylines, Contagion or Sickening Shoals)...all depends on the expected meta.

Maindeck something like this:

15 Dredgers minimum
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadows
4 Phanta
4 Bridge
4 Therapy
4 Narcomoebas
4 Chancellor
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dread Return
3 Whirlpool Rider / Griselbrand (I'm not disapppointed with Riders in Blue builds but meffeo seems to have another PoV, nice report btw)
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Wraith

1 Free Slot for cute Stuff (maybe a singleton from your Sideboard to open space or random FoW, or the 16th Dredger, nothing is set in stone :wink:)

Cheers and greetinx.

EDIT: If you decide to go the Blue Griselbrand-Route don't play your FoW's main. Noone should expect it from the SB then. Whirlpool Rider signals FoW pretty well.

[Shade909]

Well, it's not a tournament report, but a turn-2 kill! I couldn't not share the fun


Playing against a Knight of the Reliquary brew of a friend's. He says he wants to see how effective Knight+Bojuka Bog is against my deck (list for ref). I resolve to not let him play one.




4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba

4 Phantasmagorian
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Street Wraith

4 Bridge From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return

4 Whirlpool Rider
4 Phyrexian Maurauder
4 Shifting Wall


I win the roll and give him the play
Look at my hand, seems alright, got a dredger (was either an Imp or GGT, I drew the other as my 8th), a Shifting Wall, a Street Wraith and some non-cards
First turns fly by, he plays a fetch, I discard a GGT.
End of his second turn (he played a Bob), I dredge the GGT I discarded using street wraith, revealing:

2 Bridge from Below
1 Whirlpool Rider
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
1 Nether Shadow

We have a quick laugh about my lack of dredgers (or...anything), and I draw my card for the turn. A second Shifting Wall (much love to the top of my deck)

Played both walls for 0, netting me 4 zombies. Proceed to go off, dread returning Whirlpool Rider, ending in Flayer-Combo kill. (If I hadn't known his deck I could have Cabal Therapy'd before going off, either way still had enough zombies!)

This set-up is brilliant, notch up 1 more turn-2 goldfish

[Hencules]

I was watching some manaless dredge footage, and saw Joe losset (miracles) play against Jermey Kacprzak (manaless dredge). Joe has a clique in play en Jeremy combos with balustrade spy. He has three narcomoebas in play and four bridges in the yard. He sacrifices the three narcomoebas to dread return. At this point, joe casts a second clique, killing his first one and thus triggering the bridges (to remove them). Some discussion ensues and in the end the bridges are removed and the dread return resolves. Joe Plows the flayer and proceeds to win the game.

My question is this. When Jeremy sacrifices his narcomoebas, shouldn't 12 (3 narcomoebas x 4 bridges) triggers for a token be placed on the stack? Even though Joe responds with his Vendilion Clique, the triggers are on the stack, right? If that's the case, Jeremy would have 12 additional zombies.

[shopshopshop]

Bridge triggers check on resolution. This: "if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard" is the important text. It means that even if the trigger is on the stack, it won't put a zombie into play unless Bridge is in your graveyard when the trigger resolves.

[Hencules]

Bridge triggers check on resolution. This: "if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard" is the important text. It means that even if the trigger is on the stack, it won't put a zombie into play unless Bridge is in your graveyard when the trigger resolves.

Of course. I thought I missed something. Thanks!

[Heroix]

I win the roll and give him the play
Look at my hand, seems alright, got a dredger (was either an Imp or GGT, I drew the other as my 8th), a Shifting Wall, a Street Wraith and some non-cards
First turns fly by, he plays a fetch, I discard a GGT.
End of his second turn (he played a Bob), I dredge the GGT I discarded using street wraith, revealing:

2 Bridge from Below
1 Whirlpool Rider
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
1 Nether Shadow

We have a quick laugh about my lack of dredgers (or...anything), and I draw my card for the turn. A second Shifting Wall (much love to the top of my deck)

Played both walls for 0, netting me 4 zombies. Proceed to go off, dread returning Whirlpool Rider, ending in Flayer-Combo kill. (If I hadn't known his deck I could have Cabal Therapy'd before going off, either way still had enough zombies!)



I'm still trying to understand some of the nuances but how did you go off DR-ing the Whirlpool Rider? I'm not sure I understand how you went from the whirlpool rider to dredging the Flayer-Combo into your graveyard?

[DarkJester]

I'm still trying to understand some of the nuances but how did you go off DR-ing the Whirlpool Rider? I'm not sure I understand how you went from the whirlpool rider to dredging the Flayer-Combo into your graveyard?

Maybe he therapied himself first for GGT/Imp to ensure to have a dredger in the yard. But even without this, it is too much of a corner case to be relevant at all. At least to me. Sorry, I'm not sold on the Marauder/Wall-Plan.

[Daize]

I'm still trying to understand some of the nuances but how did you go off DR-ing the Whirlpool Rider? I'm not sure I understand how you went from the whirlpool rider to dredging the Flayer-Combo into your graveyard?

So what he does is first draw, discard (a GGT), dredge with street wraith. That's how he gets his dredger in his graveyard.

But your actual question as to hoe he goes from reanimating whirlpool rider --> combo combo: you put whirlpool rider into play, shuffle your hand into your library, and draw that many cards. He apparently still had dredgers in his graveyard, so he continued dredging (instead of "drawing that many cards" he probably "dredged for that many card draws"). With all that dredging and all, he probably got another two Dread Returns in his graveyard together with Flayer & GGT. Happens quite often when you have a whirlpool rider with a decently sized hand, tbh.

I'm not really sold on the X creatures either. To me, the strength of this deck (and also what makes it so hard to improve it) is all the synergy: there are very, very few cards that are really useless in the graveyard. You either want to Dread Return them, they are a good target for Ichorid, they are dredgers, Phantasmagasm... Force of Will, Street Wraith, and Gitaxian Probe are totally worth that - the X creatures haven't really been that to me...

[DarkJester]

So what he does is first draw, discard (a GGT), dredge with street wraith. That's how he gets his dredger in his graveyard.



Most of th time this is the case, but in the given example he whiffed on Dredgers and drew a X-creature. His yard was Wraith, 2 Bridge, Therapy, Shadow, Dread Return, Rider. No way to dredge with Rider before therapying himself. :wink:

[Shade909]

Sorry guys, was at work when I posted this, and my memory is awful. I messed up!

Have just texted my friend and confirmed, I did indeed therapy GGT back to yard, though to be honest I really don't even remember it...guess I should have read my post to see if what I was saying was possible!


I know it's only early in testing (and my poor reporting/playing may turn many off it...), but I'm really enjoying the X creatures, and I genuinely believe they speed up the first game enough to be worth the switch.

However, I'm thinking that maybe it would be better using Balustrade Spy or Grisel, in which case would require my list moving away from Whirlpool and possibly blue sb which is something I really want to keep (I'm more set on Forces than X creatures) so just want to ask:

How many people have run the FOW/Shoal setup without running whirlpool rider?
If you have, how reliable did you find getting active forces/shoal was?
And how often did you draw a force or shoal, no other blue and a spy/grisel and think sad thoughts?

[DarkJester]

I know it's only early in testing (and my poor reporting/playing may turn many off it...), but I'm really enjoying the X creatures, and I genuinely believe they speed up the first game enough to be worth the switch.



Serious question: Why do you think you need to increase your Game1 percentages by speeding up the deck with 0/0-dorks?

[meffeo]

How many people have run the FOW/Shoal setup without running whirlpool rider?
If you have, how reliable did you find getting active forces/shoal was?
And how often did you draw a force or shoal, no other blue and a spy/grisel and think sad thoughts?

Me.
If you draw your first seven and you see a Force / Shoal without a blue pitch AND you're expecting a RiP / Cage, simply go for the draw -> discard way until you'll find a pitch.

Mulligans are not to be considered.

[Daize]

Just throwing some variation out here: I'm running with this MB at the moment. The 2 FoWs may have some people (legitly) thinking if it's worth it, though it does make sure your SB has more options, and I'm able to run Chancellor. I've been trying to find a decent SB, but honestly - it _really_ depends on the meta. I am having a ton of difficulties against ANT, and I'm not sure what to run against it: Leyline of Sanctity _and_ Mindbreak Trap? Any other options here? With this MB the 3-4 shoals and 2 FoWs seem mandatory. Suggestions are welcome.

4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
2 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Whirlpool Rider
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Force of Will

[easysantiago]

Just throwing some variation out here: I'm running with this MB at the moment. The 2 FoWs may have some people (legitly) thinking if it's worth it, though it does make sure your SB has more options, and I'm able to run Chancellor. I've been trying to find a decent SB, but honestly - it _really_ depends on the meta. I am having a ton of difficulties against ANT, and I'm not sure what to run against it: Leyline of Sanctity _and_ Mindbreak Trap? Any other options here? With this MB the 3-4 shoals and 2 FoWs seem mandatory. Suggestions are welcome.

4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
2 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Whirlpool Rider
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Force of Will

I would add another FoW. It seems to me that if you want use FoW, increasing your chances of hitting one (even marginally) and gaining another blue card to pitch is worth it. I realize, however, that this is the more common route.

[Michael Keller]

I would add another FoW. It seems to me that if you want use FoW, increasing your chances of hitting one (even marginally) and gaining another blue card to pitch is worth it. I realize, however, that this is the more common route.

You know [and this is just a thought], but if you dredge enough cards game one for an opponent to see Force of Wills hit the bin, then fake out like you're boarding into a good deal of cards, it's possible you can throw them off into playing more conservatively games two and three and just stick with the Forces to do the job alone.

This seems more applicable to non-glass-cannon decks, though,

EDIT: I'll be switching back to Manaless again; I miss it too much.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Welcome back! Yeah, it seems as good a time as ever to play graveyard strategies. When the maximum number of hate cards people play is three, we should do just fine.

@FoW subject
I don't think you want to tip the fact you have Forces during g1. The mb needs to be streamlined and the cards you add warp your Dread Return numbers too much to be played. When the Forces do come in, you want it to be a complete surprise. If your opponent saw a Whirlpool Rider, they would know what's up, and frankly, I've never thought that card has been good enough. It doesn't work well with Phant, which is our best t1 play.

[Michael Keller]

Welcome back! Yeah, it seems as good a time as ever to play graveyard strategies. When the maximum number of hate cards people play is three, we should do just fine.

@FoW subject
I don't think you want to tip the fact you have Forces during g1. The mb needs to be streamlined and the cards you add warp your Dread Return numbers too much to be played. When the Forces do come in, you want it to be a complete surprise. If your opponent saw a Whirlpool Rider, they would know what's up, and frankly, I've never thought that card has been good enough. It doesn't work well with Phant, which is our best t1 play.

For what it's worth, I'm exploring other options aside from the blue build. This includes older builds with Arbors and the like.

[Daize]

That's always worth something :-).

I see how you wouldn't want to show your FoWs to make them play carelessly (e.g. Tormod's Crypt/Grafdigger's Cage turn 1, or RiP turn 2 without counter backup. You do kind of need the riders though to make FoW worthwhile. Let me think about it.

[Michael Keller]

I'm kind of tinkering with the blue-based list again with some changes. I'll post them later!

[easysantiago]

I'm kind of tinkering with the blue-based list again with some changes. I'll post them later!

Looking forward to it!

[Mr. Froggy]

I'm kind of tinkering with the blue-based list again with some changes. I'll post them later!

Great to see you back!

[Michael Keller]

How do you guys feel about Snapback as an option in the blue-based build? Free spell, pitches to Shoal, has some legitimate utility against opposing creatures.

[DarkJester]

How do you guys feel about Snapback as an option in the blue-based build? Free spell, pitches to Shoal, has some legitimate utility against opposing creatures.

My first thoughts on this card were:

1. Yeah, I didn't know it
2. The only creature I care about is DRS in Game 1 most of the times.
3. Chancellor of the Annex as additional out to T1 DRS serves this role while having broader application.

Never tested this card. Do you think it is worth the slot? Why?

[scottpou]

Doesn't help against Thalia but it does against elesh and griselbrand.

[Daize]

Helps against Gaddock Teeg. Too, though it's not like maverick isn't a lost cause anyway..

I took the shittiest version ever to a legacy tournament I stumbled upon yesterday... I was still building the deck, but I wanted to play anyway, and I hit 6th place out of 24 (which is enormous fun when you're playing with a deck worth as much as 1 Force of Will):

4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
3 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Whirlpool Rider
4 Ballustrade Spy

0 Phantasmagorian
1 Nether Shadow
1 Contagion
3 Gigapede
3 Disrupting Shoal

Sideboard
3 Faerie Macabre


Round 1 | Esper Stoneblade | 2 - 0
Game 1, Contagion on his Batterskull fetched with Stoneblade Mystic to buy myself time, combo off
Game 2, Combo off early, done

Round 2 | | 2 - 1
Game 1 I combo off early, not a lot to say here
Game 2 I'm lacking my Ichorids and Narcomoebas, he has 2 FoWs and 1 Spell Pierces and he just beats me to death with 2 True-Name Nemesis and a Delver of Secrets.
Game 3 I combo off with a Whirlpool Rider, and I didn't have enough creatures/Cabal Therapies left to check his hand, and he STPs my Flayer of the Hatebound. Luckily, Whirlpool Rider left 1 (!) card left in my deck, so I can attack with my GGT, Nether Shadow and Ichorids next turn - which he sees, and scoops

Round 3 | Maverick god no Maverick | 2 - 1
Game 1 I get lucky with comboing off. He had 2 dual lands, Dryad Arbor, and Wasteland in play, I had one Bridge from Below in my graveyard. I can combo off, and I start with flashbacking Cabal Therapy on myself - in response, he kills his Dryad Arbor with his Wasteland. Detail is: he also had a Qasali Pridemage, and an untapped, no summoning sickness Stoneforge Mystic in play and a Jitte in his hand. I continue with calling Bridge from Below to my Therapy, discarding one. I continue to combo off, and after he scoops he realises that he could have tapped the Dryad Arbor for mana before killing it off.

Game 2, he mulligans to 5, I mulligan to 6: I have a hand with a GGT, Gitaxian Probe, and Street Wraith and hope for the best. The Street Wraith cycle does not hit a dredger and he gets Thalia out the turn after.

Game 3, I forgot what I have, but he starts out with a Leyline of Sanctity, and Teeg together with a Sword of Fire and Ice. He pounds me 2 or 3 times, then I manage to get 2 zombies out but of course he slams down a Noble Hierarch before he attacks again with his Teeg.

Round 4 | Reanimator | 2 - 1
Game 1 he cycles through his deck with a couple of Careful Studies, and I combo off.
Game 2 I side in my only sideboard cards, Faerie Macabre. I get a hand with a Street Wraith, GGT and a Probe and decide to (stupid) keep it. He goes Entomb, Elesh Norn, Exhume. I scoop.
Game 3 I start with Faerie Macabre in a decent hand. He tries the same as last game but with Reanimate, and I Macabre him. A couple turns later I grind out his hand, and combo off.

Round 5 | Miracles | 2 - 0
I'm not sure what exactly happened here, but I know I played through some counterspells and picked his hand apart. It's amazingly cool to get Dazed, count the cards in his hand, name FoW to get it out whatever he does - and combo off the same turn.

T8!

Knockout round 1 | The_same_Maverick_player | 2 - 1
I win game 1 by making a shitton of zombies.
Game 2 has a T2 Thalia, and I have nothing to do against it, and Stoneforge Jitte follows.
Game 3 again a Thalia T2, and rapid succession of other wrecking white stuff.

Things learnt:
* 4 Nether Shadow is a must
* Post-Sideboard 3 Disrupting Shoals is _not_ enough, didn't we all know that already :-)
* I'm not sure whether I missed Phantasmagorian... I did not meet any DRS, but then again there might be a sideboard spot for them against those decks, depending on the meta... argue me!
* I feel like Whirlpool Rider is just better than Ballustrade Spy (if you didn't go go all out with Phantasmagorians just some turns before): it doesn't create an all-or-nothing scenario when you can't get all your creatures straight, used up your Cabal Therapies/already lost some bridges, or if someone just STPs your first returned creature... But it sure is nice to have more than 4 options in your graveyard.

I know it's nothing big, but I thought I'd share.

[Michael Keller]

It's a nice slot that fills the gap for the 16th blue card if you're going with four Forces.

[Daize]

Honestly the only reason I see not to play blue is when you expect a metagame that plays Leyline of the Void. And then, honestly, I wouldn't play Manaless at all. But how do you know that people will play leyline instead of Tormod's Crypt, Rest in Peace, or Grafdigger's Cage?

[Michael Keller]

Honestly the only reason I see not to play blue is when you expect a metagame that plays Leyline of the Void. And then, honestly, I wouldn't play Manaless at all. But how do you know that people will play leyline instead of Tormod's Crypt, Rest in Peace, or Grafdigger's Cage?

Leyline of the Void is in practically no one's sideboard, ATM. And even if it is, if you get the luck of the draw and get paired against them, take solace in the fact that you will likely win game one anyhow and force them to mulligan into oblivion if need be games two and three to seal the round. Sometimes, they just don't have it - and a tantalizing hand without Leyline can corrupt their decision to mulligan down to four or even three cards.

Either way, the card is generally rare to see in sideboards these days.

[Daize]

That's great, I see your point. In that case, in the right meta I wouldn't see Snapback as a bad addition at all. Also, I updated 2 posts ago with a random unexpected local tourney here ^_^. For shits and giggles.

[TheYoungster]

Hello everyone. I have recently been expanding my collection from strictly MUD, and looking to get into some of legacy's combo decks. Dredge, is probably the cheapest and most resilient so naturally this is where I chose to start. I have borrowed mana versions from a couple friends and played those to reasonable success in the past couple weeks and I have recently decided to take a look at the manaless version, mainly because its cheaper, though it doesn't give me an excuse to buy LED's. Anyway I've seen this deck make top 8 more consistently than the mana version over the past 4 months or so, so my interest is piqued. What I want to ask is what are the advantages/disadvantages of this deck in relation to its brethren, and is it as vulnerable to hate as much as people say (at least relative to the other variants)? Any responses are appreciated and I think I might try to borrow the cards for an upcoming tournament and test it out to see how much I like it.

[Daize]

Read the entire thread, it's a long shot but it's so, so worth it. It'll give you an idea how to play, what the pros and cons are as well.

Pros: less all in on Bridge from Below, more resilient to counters
Cons: less explosive than LED.

[Doishy]

So Hollywood, now that you are back on the manaless train.....any chance of that shiny new primer? ;)

[Michael Keller]

I am definitely going to push ahead and finish it.

[Mr. Froggy]

Read the entire thread, it's a long shot but it's so, so worth it. It'll give you an idea how to play, what the pros and cons are as well.

Pros: less all in on Bridge from Below, more resilient to counters
Cons: less explosive than LED.

I find it's also just more resilient in all aspects. Just not as fast.

[Bookwizard]

I am a recent dredge convert, and have built the manaless dredge deck. I am reading every article and watching every video I can find on manaless dredge. I read Michael Keller's article in "Cutting Room Floor" as well. Thank you for this primer as well as the former article.

What I would like is a sideboarding guide that tells me what cards to remove when I bring in the sideboard cards. I don't want to ruin the main deck by replacing the wrong cards after game one.

The build I am starting with:

Creature [44]
4 Ichorid
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Nether Shadow
4 Street Wraith
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Griselbrand

Instant [4]
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal

Sorcery [8]
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy

Enchantment [4]
4 Bridge from Below

Sideboard [15]
1 Forest
3 Nature's Claim
3 Noxious Revival
2 Sickening Shoal
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Reverent Silence

I look forward to your reply.

Thank you,

Bookwizard

[Mr. Froggy]

Depending on the matchup you can sometimes remove Bridges or the Reanimation package, shave a Nether Shadow here and there.

What match ups do you want more info on?

[Bookwizard]

I am interested in a side boarding plan for all of the major Legacy decks. So any advice you can give will be of great help.

[jamie7keller]

Hi all, I posted this in the regular dredge thread by mistake. Thanks to Michael for pointing me here. I was frustrated at how little manaless stuff there was on that thread and now I know why :)

Anyway, I have a manaless dredge question. Here is my current list (sideboard is a bit of a mess):

Creature (44)
4x Balustrade Spy
4x Chancellor of the Annex
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Phantasmagorian
3x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Street Wraith

Sorcery (12)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
4x Gitaxian Probe

Enchantment (4)
4x Bridge from Below

Sideboard (15)
1x Ashen Rider
4x Faerie Macabre
2x Greater Mossdog
2x Mindbreak Trap
4x Noxious Revival
1x Sickening Shoal
1x Contagion

I am considering the transformative anti-hate sideboard of Hollywood, http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52180/the-cutting-room-floor-manaless-dredge-in-legacy (its a little dated, but the sideboard is interesting), as shown below:

4 Reverent Silence
3 Nature’s Claim
3 Noxious Revival
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Sickening Shoal
1 Forest
(4 dryad arbors in the main)

What do you all think? Also, I have considered a serra avatar or something similar, so that if i am stopped from winning after a spy combo (which entire library in graveyard) i don't automatically mill myself the next turn. I know cabal therapy should keep my win safe, but am I right to worry? Also, having that lets me drop the spy to an opponent's show and tell and win the next turn.

If the answer to all this is "go read the first 100 pages of this thread, we already covered all this," that's fine and I'll do that. :)

Edit: I just backed up a few pages and I see the blue discussion, and think it is fascinating. I will not be going that route, as saving $$$ on Force of Will is a big part of what started my interest in manaless dredge. I have two decks now, this and elves, to give me a little ability to swap decks for different metagames (though both decks are good against FoW and bad against turn one combo wins)

[Daize]

What I did just this other tourney is going budget FoW --> Disrupting Shoal. You got your 1 mana in Gitaxian probe, and your 2 mana in Narcomoeba & Whirlpool Rider, would you choose to play that one. Budget!

[igri_is_a_bk]

We've tried to make Reverent Silence work, but the truth is that it never won me a game. For it to work, you need to let RiP hit play and that in itself is the problem. Assuming you've kept a full hand, you will be down to six cards after you've played RS + Arbor/forest so you're still two turns from discard (unless you also have Unmask). After that, you're at least another turn from winning if you dredge perfectly and have some combination of Wraith/Probe. It's just all too unlikely. What's more likely is that you've been beat down by a couple of arbitrary dorks in those five or so turns. Additionally, you can't play Balustrade Spy.

I'm not completely sold that you want only Spy as a target, but you definitely want a nonzero number in your list. Some number of Griselbrand may be correct too. It's hard to tell because I win every game that I resolve DR, but there are benefits to each creature. Like, Spy is unconditionally going to flip your entire library, while Griselbrand can do the same but you need to be at least 7 obviously. On the other hand, the fact Griselbrand can leave some library remaining is a good thing if you were unable to Therapy, Probe or Unmask them before DR.

Nature's Claim on Grafdigger's Cage works in theory. I gave up on it before it actually happened, but it does seem more useful than RS as Cage doesn't reset your progress. I'd still rather have FoW and Shoal though.

As for the Serra Avatar/Progenitus slot, I think it's worth it. Especially if you have FoW/Shoal in your sb because Progenitus gets you to 17 blue cards without Whirlpool Rider.

[Daize]

Alright, Hollywood - any updates? :-)

[Mr. Froggy]

Just bought my first Beta Nether Shadow :D so sexy!

[P-E]

welldone 3 more to find ^^

[Mr. Froggy]

welldone 3 more to find ^^

Yeah I thought of the sane thing.. it's gonna be a heck of a hunt!

[jimmythegreek]

Yeah I thought of the sane thing.. it's gonna be a heck of a hunt!

Uuuummmm. eBay? Don't believe the four-way mis-cut nether shadows though.......All hand cut from sheats.

[P-E]

Congrats Juha !!
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=73416

[Stomping Grounds G&H]

Can someone explain the Blightsteel Colossus in Juha's maindeck?

[ahg113]

Can someone explain the Blightsteel Colossus in Juha's maindeck?

It allows for an extra turn after the Spy goes off (and potentially others pending on hand size and active Phanta's). When spy flips the library, the replacement trigger on Blightsteel puts it back in the library, so you don't effectively deck yourself. This is because either you lack an alpha strike/combo after flipping, or you put in a spy off an opponents Show'n'Tell, Hypergenesis, or Eureka.

Other creatures that do the same
Serra Avatar
Progenitus
World Spine Wurm

[Daize]

Oh wow, just the leyline against hate (that'd be, Tormod's crypt, nothing else really). Sickening Shoal works against Teeg, but not against Thalia... seems like a meta call. Are there any match descriptions available?

[Michael Keller]

Oh wow, just the leyline against hate (that'd be, Tormod's crypt, nothing else really). Sickening Shoal works against Teeg, but not against Thalia... seems like a meta call. Are there any match descriptions available?

Sickening Shoal does not work against Teeg.

[Daize]

Right, wasn't fully awake I guess. Thanks.

[AlmostGrown]

Is there any answer for teeg? Or is the answer just "grind them out"

[P-E]

If you re not confident with grind plan and your meta is full of teeg snapnack could do the trick

[Daize]

Then you'll see Thalia (which usually goes hand in hand with Teeg) hit the board first.. in that case, I don't know if I'd rather go hard on counters, or just side out the combo pieces. I think I'd go hard on counters.

[Shade909]

Does anyone think the new delve cards will change the types of grave-hate seeing play?

Now that every deck that can run blue is going to be casting Ancestral Recall with threshold, non-blue decks could hurt them by running RIPs (I feel this is less likely), and blue decks that ran RIP could be moving to cage/relic/crypt

May end up making no difference but you know, just a thought :rolleyes:

[Michael Keller]

Does anyone think the new delve cards will change the types of grave-hate seeing play?

Now that every deck that can run blue is going to be casting Ancestral Recall with threshold, non-blue decks could hurt them by running RIPs (I feel this is less likely), and blue decks that ran RIP could be moving to cage/relic/crypt

May end up making no difference but you know, just a thought :rolleyes:

No one is bringing in graveyard hate to fight Treasure Cruise. You're better off actually playing Treasure Cruise as opposed to fighting it - assuming you're playing blue.

Graveyard hate isn't changing at all. Cage and 'Peace will continue to see play in normal numbers. You might see a small spike in hate on the card, but that's all jitters and bad sideboarding strategy. No need to worry.

[Shade909]

Graveyard hate isn't changing at all. Cage and 'Peace will continue to see play in normal numbers. You might see a small spike in hate on the card, but that's all jitters and bad sideboarding strategy. No need to worry.

I'm not thinking about a spike, I'm thinking about a reduction just in RIP. I only bring it up because a friend has changed his grave-hate from RIP due to testing Treasure Cruise *shrug*
Admittedly, I'm referencing a pretty small sample size here so probably best to ignore me :wink:

[Michael Keller]

I'm not thinking about a spike, I'm thinking about a reduction just in RIP. I only bring it up because a friend has changed his grave-hate from RIP due to testing Treasure Cruise *shrug*
Admittedly, I'm referencing a pretty small sample size here so probably best to ignore me :wink:

Well, players that run Cruise that also run Rest in Peace probably need to rethink their sideboarding strategy, because that seems incredibly counterproductive. The idea is to fill your graveyard to draw three cards as soon as possible, and even though it's possible anyone running Cruise could sub it/them out for Peace, it just seems bad overall. Players will probably pick up on this if they already haven't, and will likely either stay clear of playing Cruise in that deck or readjust their sideboard so they can justify running it.

Honestly, Tormod's Crypt in the wake of CruiseMania might see a small resurgence in general graveyard hate. It puts a card in your graveyard for free while nuking an opponent's graveyard. Relic is counterproductive in a deck running Cruise, and Cage changes nothing. But again people shouldn't be boarding in hate to fight Cruise, because that's just bad play.

Deathrite Shaman could see a nice increase in play I suspect as a nice side bonus of countering the use of early Cruises, which wouldn't surprise me one bit.

[Parcher]

Well, players that run Cruise that also run Rest in Peace probably need to rethink their sideboarding strategy, because that seems incredibly counterproductive. The idea is to fill your graveyard to draw three cards as soon as possible, and even though it's possible anyone running Cruise could sub it/them out for Peace, it just seems bad overall. Players will probably pick up on this if they already haven't, and will likely either stay clear of playing Cruise in that deck or readjust their sideboard so they can justify running it.

Honestly, Tormod's Crypt in the wake of CruiseMania might see a small resurgence in general graveyard hate. It puts a card in your graveyard for free while nuking an opponent's graveyard. Relic is counterproductive in a deck running Cruise, and Cage changes nothing. But again people shouldn't be boarding in hate to fight Cruise, because that's just bad play.

Deathrite Shaman could see a nice increase in play I suspect as a nice side bonus of countering the use of early Cruises, which wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Legacy is slow moving and reactionary. What I believe will happen is first, players will start running more stuff like RiP and Relic. As they are what I call "Stuarts". "Look what I can do! I can hate on both gravyard, AND delve decks!" Which basically means that they are too lazy and stupid to find the best home for these overpowered cards, and would rather feebly attempt some half-measures to contain them. Eventually the format will come around, and people will realize it is better to try and break cards like Treasure Cruise, than it is to try and directly fight them.

[Michael Keller]

Legacy is slow moving and reactionary. What I believe will happen is first, players will start running more stuff like RiP and Relic. As they are what I call "Stuarts". "Look what I can do! I can hate on both gravyard, AND delve decks!" Which basically means that they are too lazy and stupid to find the best home for these overpowered cards, and would rather feebly attempt some half-measures to contain them. Eventually the format will come around, and people will realize it is better to try and break cards like Treasure Cruise, than it is to try and directly fight them.

Deathrite Shaman is the best hate to fight the use of the card because of its multifaceted applicability to game one-three utility. I still give folks who play Legacy the benefit of the doubt, because I believe there are more skilled, intelligent players who won't make ridiculous deck-building decisions like that. At least in the venues I play in. The card is brand new and the knee-jerk reaction is to quash its widespread use or join the ranks. Seeing it as a four-of in a championship deck certainly doesn't help.

As far as hate goes, I expect no change.

[ahg113]

Legacy is slow moving and reactionary. What I believe will happen is first, players will start running more stuff like RiP and Relic. As they are what I call "Stuarts". "Look what I can do! I can hate on both gravyard, AND delve decks!" Which basically means that they are too lazy and stupid to find the best home for these overpowered cards, and would rather feebly attempt some half-measures to contain them. Eventually the format will come around, and people will realize it is better to try and break cards like Treasure Cruise, than it is to try and directly fight them.

So REB/Pyro are bad ideas to fight Cruise with?

About manaless to keep it on track- I'm in the Griz over Whirlpool rider camp. I go back and forth, but Griz is just such a beater and generally better card. Griz also lacks that miniscule anti-synergy with Phanta that Rider does. Not sure if I notice the lack of the extra blue cards. Seldom do I get a hand that has a pitch-counter and Griz so...

[Stomping Grounds G&H]

Another question about the deck that got 3rd at SCG NJ; what is Ashen Rider usually sideboarded in for?

[davelin]

Another question about the deck that got 3rd at SCG NJ; what is Ashen Rider usually sideboarded in for?

Show and tell?

[Darklingske]

Another question about the deck that got 3rd at SCG NJ; what is Ashen Rider usually sideboarded in for?

Yes, show & Tell and Lands too if they play Glacial Chasm.

[funnywille]

So, I was considering building a budget deck for MTGO, so I was wondering how much worse the non-blue decks without Unmask are. I've flipped through the last 15 pages or so and gone through this year's Dredge decks from Opens, and I don't see much of those. Would it be viable to do decently in dailies?

[Daize]

I've played at a tourney with a very sub par manaless dredge deck. It always depends on metagame, and they weren't playing a lot of hate / couldn't find it: ended 6th. Didn't have phantasmagorians (had gigapede but phantasmagorian is soporte much better), had 1 nether shadow and no chancellor of the annexes.
You can easily play with both spy and whirlpool rider as well as disrupting shoal main. No idea about your Meta though.

[funnywille]

I was talking about the MTGO meta actually. Ironically, I have the expensive cards all in real life. I'm just not super invested in MTGO at the moment, and I really don't want to blow a few hundred on an MTGO deck yet.

I'll probably have to proxy this up IRL and goldfish quite a few times to at least understand the basics. On a side note, I recall someone here had a bunch of videos on Youtube with Dredge...but it's too hard to find in this massive thread, and there isn't actually a primer. Does anyone remember who the person was?


I was looking at something like:

Creatures [44]
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Shambling Shell
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith


Sorceries [12]
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

Enchantments [4]
4 Bridge from Below

Sidedeck [15]
1 Forest
4 Dryad Arbor
1 Reverent Silence
3 Nature's Claim
3Sickening Shoal
3 Contagion

[Mr. Froggy]

Its still a really powerful deck, but Manaless is popular on MTGO since its so cheap to build, so the hate is there.

[Mindlash]

I was talking about the MTGO meta actually. Ironically, I have the expensive cards all in real life. I'm just not super invested in MTGO at the moment, and I really don't want to blow a few hundred on an MTGO deck yet.

I'll probably have to proxy this up IRL and goldfish quite a few times to at least understand the basics. On a side note, I recall someone here had a bunch of videos on Youtube with Dredge...but it's too hard to find in this massive thread, and there isn't actually a primer. Does anyone remember who the person was?


I was looking at something like:

Creatures [44]
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Shambling Shell
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith


Sorceries [12]
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

Enchantments [4]
4 Bridge from Below

Sidedeck [15]
1 Forest
4 Dryad Arbor
1 Reverent Silence
3 Nature's Claim
3Sickening Shoal
3 Contagion

The Maindeck is the same I am running when playing manaless dredge. Only difference is that I am playing 3 spy and 4 shell.

I am not sold on the sideboard though. Is it common to play an anti-hate package while on the spy plan or are you boarding out all spies? I have seen the green anti-hate only with Griselbrand in the main, because he works with lands.

I play the same split between Contagion and Sickening Shoal. I also use 4 Mindbreak Trap against combo right now.

Last 5 cards are not set right now. Probably 1 Ashen Rider against SnT or prison effects and 1 Serra Avatar against Painter and SnT.

Greetings Mindlash

[funnywille]

The Maindeck is the same I am running when playing manaless dredge. Only difference is that I am playing 3 spy and 4 shell.

I am not sold on the sideboard though. Is it common to play an anti-hate package while on the spy plan or are you boarding out all spies? I have seen the green anti-hate only with Griselbrand in the main, because he works with lands.

I play the same split between Contagion and Sickening Shoal. I also use 4 Mindbreak Trap against combo right now.

Last 5 cards are not set right now. Probably 1 Ashen Rider against SnT or prison effects and 1 Serra Avatar against Painter and SnT.

Greetings Mindlash

Yeah, I'm starting to lean towards a fourth Shambling Shell myself. I'm getting frustrated with how often I dredge 5/6 and mill 0 dredgers.

Err, well, my sideboard plan is actually budgeted. I'm unwilling to put $65 towards a set of Mindbreak traps, so I'm willing to toss the storm matchup and attempt some kind of playable sideboard. I'd love to hear any better ideas.

I'm actually now leaning toward the following board now. I've very rarely boarded in all of the removal...though it might be more because I'm bad at sideboarding. I haven't jammed enough games yet to figure out which cards are essential. I'm trying to evaluate Chancellor at the moment. I very rarely board them out right now, but I think it isn't good enough against non-T1 discard or non-combo decks. I've been leaving them in against UR Delver too, but I think it's possible that they aren't fast enough for me to leave them in...
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Nature's Claim
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Serra Avatar
2 Contagion
2 Sickening Shoal

[Domel]

Hi,

Have you ever considered Dinrova Horror as a DR target in blue version instead of Asher Rider? Last weekend i've decided to give "blue" manaless a try and went 3-1 (loosing to Merfolks in last round). I really like te build but since the deck can be quite short on blue cards I've searched for a creature that might be a substitution for Ashen Rider (for games you want to bring them in from your SB) that might also serve as blue card.

What's your oppinion on this card?

[meffeo]

So, went 3-0 in our local tournament yesterday.

Faced UWR (2-0), ANT (2-0) and S&S (2-1).


First game I saw 3 Cabal Therapies and went comboing, second game again Therapies, but this time the whole playset. Pretty impressive. Dredgin is easy against empty hands, I'd say.

ANT, terrible MU, was pretty interesting. G1 my opponent kept a slow hand and was not able to find the kill before tokens and ichorids reached a conclusion. G2 my opponent on the play went unprotected Petal, Ritual, Ritual, Ad Nauseam. Response: Mindbreak Trap. Won some turn later with the undead army.

Last turn, Sneak & Show. G1 after several combat phases my opponent was at 1 life and me at 5, thanks to the Flying Spaghetti Monster; dreadreturning a Flayer was the simplest choice. G2 an early Cage leaded us towards G3, in which I had a Fow but no other blue cards in hand (revealed by a Probe). Some mind Jedi tricks, some Cabal Therapy and some slow dredging until mighty Nether Shadows sealed the deal.


I’ve tried the playsets of those shiny X mana artifacts and I’m pretty satisfied. Once a player slam a Cage which we aren’t able to counter, we could try to overwhelm him with tokens. I’d give it a try.

[Mitalca]

Just finished reading the whole thread. Took me a few of weeks but it was worth it
I started playing the deck for budget reasons (spy version obv) but fell in love with it and with all the passion you all guys put into it.
I'm now just 2 FoW away from having the full blue version. But still tinkering with the idea to keep the spy md and bring the whole U pack from the Side, even the riders. I know it's a waste of space but I want to give the full surprise at least for a couple tourneys

Anyway, thanks to all of you, specially those who've been around for a long time

[easysantiago]

Just finished reading the whole thread. Took me a few of weeks but it was worth it
I started playing the deck for budget reasons (spy version obv) but fell in love with it and with all the passion you all guys put into it.
I'm now just 2 FoW away from having the full blue version. But still tinkering with the idea to keep the spy md and bring the whole U pack from the Side, even the riders. I know it's a waste of space but I want to give the full surprise at least for a couple tourneys

Anyway, thanks to all of you, specially those who've been around for a long time

Welcome to the archetype and have fun getting your last 2 FoWs. I have also flirted with the idea of running the Spy list with a transitional blue sideboard for game 2. Perhaps the more experienced Manaless players here can discuss why this will or will not work. If you try it out, please let us know how it goes!

[Daize]

Depending on your metagame (e.g. if you have a lot of STP against you... maybe be careful) you can indeed perfectly pull this off. I'm not an expert-expert, but I've noticed that you're very, very likely to win game 1. It's game 2 and game 3 that are the ones that matter. So if your metagame and sideboard space allows it, you might as well solidify your game 1 chances (even more), and go for a slower but more resilient build game 2 & 3.

[slave]

....I have also flirted with the idea of running the Spy list with a transitional blue sideboard for game 2. Perhaps the more experienced Manaless players here can discuss why this will or will not work. If you try it out, please let us know how it goes!
Sure it could work, but it really comes down to how you construct your side as to whether it's worth it.
The whole point of the blue side is to increase the options in your side by running as many blue cards in the main as you can.

After running the blue side for well over a year now, my thought is that regardless of which side-plan you run, I'd rather have a way to handle their sideboard options coming in rather than surprise them.

[Echelon]

Depending on your metagame (e.g. if you have a lot of STP against you... maybe be careful) you can indeed perfectly pull this off. I'm not an expert-expert, but I've noticed that you're very, very likely to win game 1. It's game 2 and game 3 that are the ones that matter. So if your metagame and sideboard space allows it, you might as well solidify your game 1 chances (even more), and go for a slower but more resilient build game 2 & 3.

Lol. StP is the least of our problems. The turn you go off, you have no problem if the Spy were to be StP'd and, most often before you go off (specifically when facing anything playing blue) you strip/explore their hand with Cabal Therapy anyway. Heck, after you flip your library you can fire off 4 Cabal Therapy to catch anything that'd mess with the Flayer. I don't see the problem.

If they manage to play another certain white card... well... yeah... that's a different story.

[potatodavid]

SCG is coming to my home town of Minneapolis. I've been playing around with delver shenanigans for the past 6 months or so. Looking to head back to the deck where lands don't exist for the occasion. Is the Blue Manaless still a potentially viable deck? Or was that just a flash in the pan?

[Mitalca]

I think the consensus is that the blue version is the most solid because of the ability to fight the hate and some really bad matchs
But it has yet to get validation in the form of big tournament results. In that regard, spy all in lists have been better

[potatodavid]

I think the consensus is that the blue version is the most solid because of the ability to fight the hate and some really bad matchs
But it has yet to get validation in the form of big tournament results. In that regard, spy all in lists have been better

Fair deal. I may dust off the old Lion's Eye Diamonds then.

[Mitalca]

Well, to be fair, its been a while since I've seen Led dredge do well in tournaments

[DarkJester]

Well, to be fair, its been a while since I've seen Led dredge do well in tournaments

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14818&iddeck=109765
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14751&iddeck=109244
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14743&iddeck=109070
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14558&iddeck=107590

Just counting tournaments with 100 people+ :confused:

[gibbousm]

With the rise of Treasure Cruise and U/R Delver how would you say this affects the meta with regards to graveyard hate?

UR Delver has a fair amount of counterspells and cantrips as well as a fairly fast clock backed up by burn to kill us or to kill their own guys and deal with Bridges.
From what I've seen a lot of UR Delver lists are preparing for the mirror cutting Dazes for Pyroblasts which is good for us as Pyroblast only hits Gitaxian Probe.

As a deck whose success is tied to the amount of graveyard hate present how do you think things will be in the coming months?
Probably less Relics and more Crypts but beyond that I don't know.

[potatodavid]

With the rise of Treasure Cruise and U/R Delver how would you say this affects the meta with regards to graveyard hate?

UR Delver has a fair amount of counterspells and cantrips as well as a fairly fast clock backed up by burn to kill us or to kill their own guys and deal with Bridges.
From what I've seen a lot of UR Delver lists are preparing for the mirror cutting Dazes for Pyroblasts which is good for us as Pyroblast only hits Gitaxian Probe.

As a deck whose success is tied to the amount of graveyard hate present how do you think things will be in the coming months?
Probably less Relics and more Crypts but beyond that I don't know.

I feel like cage will be the predominate GY hate which we can smoke that with Shoal/FOW easily enough. Its the public enemy #1 DRS that i'm mostly concerned about.

[Daize]

? Cage does nothing against Treasure Cruise... I feel like Tormod's Crypt or just leylines are more likely to enter the game. Tormod's Crypt doesn't slow a player down mana-wise and doesn't need to be a dead card later, though Leyline is...

[gibbousm]

While I do like the power and flexibility of the Blue Board (4 FoW + 4 Shoal) being able to be anti-hate as well as hate itself is nice. My current sideboard is pretty much all combo-hate + Contagions for DRS/Scooze.
What do you cut from the main deck from siding 8 cards in? Right now I usually only bring in about 4-6 cards depending on the match up cutting my Shambling Shells, the worst dredger, most frequently. I know a lot of people who run Chancellor of the Annex cut that first when sideboard, but I like being able to blank my opponent's turn 1 play especially if I'm set on the play after winning game 1. Though if I have counters I wouldn't need Chancellor post-board doing the same thing. I don't like the idea of bringing in 8 counters + 4 removal spells vs a deck with DRS it dilutes the deck too much.

What do most people's Blue Board look like? How do you fill up the other 7 slots?

[Mitalca]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14818&iddeck=109765
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14751&iddeck=109244
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14743&iddeck=109070
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14558&iddeck=107590

Just counting tournaments with 100 people+ :confused:

I stand corrected

[DarkJester]

While I do like the power and flexibility of the Blue Board (4 FoW + 4 Shoal) being able to be anti-hate as well as hate itself is nice. My current sideboard is pretty much all combo-hate + Contagions for DRS/Scooze.
What do you cut from the main deck from siding 8 cards in? Right now I usually only bring in about 4-6 cards depending on the match up cutting my Shambling Shells, the worst dredger, most frequently. I know a lot of people who run Chancellor of the Annex cut that first when sideboard, but I like being able to blank my opponent's turn 1 play especially if I'm set on the play after winning game 1. Though if I have counters I wouldn't need Chancellor post-board doing the same thing. I don't like the idea of bringing in 8 counters + 4 removal spells vs a deck with DRS it dilutes the deck too much.

What do most people's Blue Board look like? How do you fill up the other 7 slots?

No Shaman,No Discard, No Combo? Cut the Cancellors.
If you wanna grind, try out some numbers of Dread Returns, one Phanta maybe, the mentioned 4th Shell. Use the shave tech. Against really fast decks, I usually board out my Shadows first.

[Daize]

Heya guys how're you doing, today I could have made 1st on this GP New Jersey trial, but I misplayed :/. Because of all I've learnt from you guys and to share experiences, I won't do anything less than get a write up for you... a long one. Sorry for that =/. EDIT: added youtube links, and my god my Spanish is horrible -.-

GP Trial New Jersey
We had a 5 round GP New Jersey trial today in our local shop Retromex at the big central park (La Alameda) in Mexico City here, where I reached to the 2nd place :-).

Decklist:
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
3 Phantasmagorian
2 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Whirlpool Rider
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Force of Will
2 Balustrade Spy
SB: 3 Disrupting Shoal
SB: 2 Force of Will
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Balustrade Spy
SB: 1 Shambling Shell
SB: 2 Whirlpool Rider
SB: 1 Contagion
SB: 1 Phantasmagorian
Decklist explanation:
I wanted to try a different route here. Since I "always" win game one, I want to try to put sideboard elements into it while still ensuring victory in game 1 (i.e. if you usually beat the opponent 10 floors into the ground, why not use your energy differently if 1 floor into the ground is enough), mostly in this:

3 Phantasmagorian instead of 4: I feel that Phantasmagorian is great, but not always necessary: usually just discarding a dredger will do just perfectly. If you have something in your hand that needs to go to the graveyard, you can still do it 8th card-in-hand end of turn, or with a Phantasmagorian that comes later / Cabal Therapy. Against DRS, I kept one in the SB for safety.

2 Force of Will instead of 3-4: If we can beat someone to brambles with 0 FoW mainboard, why not beat someone solidly KO while at the same time saving up 2 SB spots.

2 Balustrade Spy and 2 Whirlpool Rider instead of 4 Whirlpool Rider: Balustrade Spy is definitely more solid considering Phantasmagorian shenanigans as well as a Ichorid target, while Whirlpool Rider is great for FoW. I liked this setup, definitely because it gave me a more solid chance against combo (being certain about a kill right here right now). On the other hand Whirlpool Rider was amazing against DRS where the opponent would always keep DRS open until my end of turn to wait for the Flayer. Whirlpool Rider is great if having 4/5th of your library in your graveyard is almost a certain win, but 5/5 of your library in your graveyard is plain death.

Sideboard: don't mind it too much, I didn't have mindbreak traps. It was mostly for flexibility options. Shambling Shell in case I didn't have enough dredgers (2 Shambling Shells wasn't a problem), 1 Balustrade Spy to go all in harder against decks on a clock, 2 Whirlpool Rider to go all in harder against a clock and/or fuel for my counters, Phantasmagorian against Deathrite Shaman/Surgical Extraction and the like.

Round 1: Vs Alberto, Thalia Goblins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NrqgsDqc2A
First game, he doesn't get mana quickly for Thalia (which he accidentally shows via mountain, wasteland, Thalia... oops) and I get to start and continue dredging via Street Wraith, and Gitaxian Probe, getting the necessities for comboing out. A typical "goldfish match" - playing my own game, without anything to really bother me, but do me some damage. EDIT: I forgot, I didn't even get to playing that Probe, he scooped before I could.
SB:
-2 Balustrade Spy
-4 Chancellor of the Annex
-1 Nether Shadow
+2 Force of Will
+3 Disrupting Shoal
+2 Whirlpool Rider
SB reasoning: Whirlpool Rider in for Balustrade Spy as explained above, Nether Shadow I thought would be a bit slow (and cutting one isn't that bad), Forces in against possible Rest in Peace, and Thalia, as well as Disrupting Shoal. Chancellor out was because he can throw a cheap goblin and then play RiP anyway his second turn, or he can wait a turn and still be really aggressive. Chancellor wouldn't mean the difference between life and death here. Also, the other 3 (if I start with just one in hand) would be dead cards later.
SB reflection: Taking out the Chancellors was a good idea, Nether Shadow seems.. okay, with Thalia out it's good to have him, with the chance of RiP without counter he's not worth anything.

Game 2 (11:00 on youtube), he starts (which he later tells me he shouldn't have, so I can't draw, discard, dredge - only one other player did the same) he drops with Cavern of Souls. Instead I get to go fast via Street Wraith, get a Narcomoeba in play in my second turn, and Nether Shadow + Ichorid in my graveyard. I face off against Thalia, Goblin Lackey[cards], [cards]Goblin Rabblemaster, Goblin Warchief, and I win the arms race via Ichorids, a Narcomoeba, and a Nether Shadow (I end up at 5 when he dies).

Round 2: vs Cesar, BUG
He starts, throwing down a DRS. Luckily I have my Phantasmagorian, which gives me some options (Golgari Thug, Stinkweed Imp and X). It's hard for me to start going because he keeps slowing me down with DRS and I just don't get what I need. He counters my first Dread Return (casted blindly considering I'm on the clock), I try to get some shenanigans in with Ichorid and Nether Shadow, but he annoys me with Stifle on Ichorid, removing Nether Shadow with DRS, and something I forgot - all in one turn. He has to make some decisions on what to remove, but in the end my Bridge From Belows stay, and dredgers and Ichorids mostly go. I end up being able to combo him down with a second Dread Return.
SB:
-2 Balustrade Spy
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-1 Dread Return
-1 Nether Shadow
-1 Dread Return
+2 Force of Will
+3 Disrupting Shoal
+1 Phantasmagorian
+2 Whirlpool Rider
SB reasoning: two Gitaxian Probes out because i want to avoid easy targets for Daze, I wanted rather to focus on uncounterable threats. Otherwise.. I don't really know what I was thinking :/. Obviously I wanted to have some fuel against his counters, considering his DRS (and maybe Scavaging Oozes) would keep me on a clock. Plus the Phantasmagorian vs DRS.
SB reflection: I am still having a hard time deciding what to side out, and I obviously did some skimming here. Nether Shadow is slow at times, Dread Return should probably have been something else because it's always a game-ending threat with the right circumstances. Keeping Chancellor in was amazing, to give myself some time.
I start with Chancellor in hand, he throws a Delver of Secrets, and throws down a DRS next turn (followed by another one 4 turns later). I decide not to counter it with Force of Will (I also let a Tarmogoyf resolve), because I want to be able to counter one of his, him throwing me a clock anyway graveyardwise. This turns out to be a good choice: IIRC he uses a Flusterstorm on a Cabal Therapy, and I can Dread Return -> Whirlpool Rider most of my library in my graveyard, countering his Daze. There was some confusion because we both forgot the lifegain from his two DRS, and in one turn (when he remembers), he gains 8 life... I wasn't sure about this ruling, but the judge said so. I want to Dread Return my Flayer of the Hatebound, but he removes it with DRS. I proceed with the Bridge from Belows - he has a Tarmogoyf out, I have 13 tokens, 3 Nether Shadows, and 2 Ichorid against his 25 hp, Tarmogoyf, and 2 active Deathrite Shamans, but decide to wait to kill him off in one go the next turn with more tokens, exactly 29 in one go.

Round 3 vs Luis, Midrange
I start with a Phantasmagorian, dredger, and Chancellor in hand, he plays around it (but loses time) and gets a Deathrite Shaman down. However, via two Bridge from Belows, an Ichorid returned and hitting a Narcomoeba when dredging, using Cabal Therapy on myself for Dread Return, I get two tokens which I can use together with Ichorid to revive Chancellor of the Annex - he calls for the second match.
SB:
+ 1 Phantasmagorian
+1 Contagion
+1 Balustrade Spy
-2 Force of Will
-1 Nether Shadow
SB reasoning: you guys must go crazy seeing how I sideboard. My thoughts were: getting rid of Force of Will because if he plays Leyline of the Void: it doesn't help me, and his other threats I can play around if I'm fast enough - or I can use contagion for that, considering I have way more black spells. The extra Balustrade Spy was to increase my chances to combo off (considering I'm on a clock with DRS and he doesn't have counters).
SB reflection: it turned out that he played 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Nihil Spellbomb, and 1 Tormod's Crypt. Ouch. Always expect hate, although I was lucky here.
The second match I cannot really recall, I think I comboed off pretty easily. Only notable thing is that I used Cabal Therapy on myself to get Flayer of the Hatebound in my graveyard. Pretty standard, but I love doing that.

Round 4: Cesar, Affinity
We get a deckcheck, and even though earlier the judge looked at my 2 deck box and said "make sure you have your deck in 1 box next time", he did a "boxcheck" 1 round later and gave me a gameloss because I had a 5th Force of Will (in a different sleeve, for trading) in the box. Ugh.
We proceed and the game seems to be going quite well: I slow him down with Chancellor of the Annex. He gets an Etched Champion, I build up a token base with Ichorids, and get him down to 3. I'm at 12, he would get me down to about 4 life with his Etched Champion and Cranial Plating and.... topdecks another Cranial Plating. Oh well.

Round 5: Cesar, Imperial Painter (decided to 1-1 so we both get into top 8)
He is just too fast. We played 4.5 matches for fun, and with Ensnaring Bridge, siding out Blood Moons and the versatility and resilience of his deck and the speed: it's difficult to win. In the end it was 1-1 (2-0 and 0-2), mostly having difficulties with his Red Elemental Blasts and Pyroblasts when he tries to put down a Painter. This deck packs hate.


Knock-out rounds:

Quarter finals, top 8 vs Mager, BUReanimator
I get him the first game where we both make a terrible mistake: he tries to reanimate my first discarded Golgari Grave-troll with Animate Dead - while he had no creatures in his graveyard. To make matters worse, I Force of Will it. What-the-hell? He takes out some dredgers by using up two more Animate Dead on Golgari Thug and Stinkweed Imp, hoping for an Entomb (or anything like that), but he doesn't and I combo out with Balustrade Spy.
I totally forgot writing down what I sideboarded here, but it looked a bit like this:
+ 2 Force of Will
+ 1 Disrupting Shoal
+ 1 Ravenous Trap
+ 3 Faerie Macabre
+ 3 Whirlpool Rider
- 2 Balustrade Spy
- 4 Nether Shadow
- 1 Shambling Shell
- 2 Cabal Therapy
??
SB reasoning: Nether Shadow is too slow, if I can play Cabal Therapy, he is already having enough trouble and I'm on steam anyway, and I can perfectly disrupt his plays. Disrupting Shoal is too much of a miss here sometimes I felt considering the mana costs.
SB reflection: Disrupting Shoal would have been great against 8 of his reanimation spells (Exhume and Animate Dead), but honestly I just did not know what to take out.

Game 2:I can't remember a lot of this match, except that he was.. fast. He gets a griselbrand in his graveyard quickly, he searches for an Anger, attacks with Griselbrand[cards], draws another 7, finds his guns and Entombs an Elesh Norn which gets resurrected. Game over.

Game 3: I start with a.. I think a Stinkweed Imp in my graveyard, and two Street Wraiths in my hand. To keep my tempo up I decide to bait a possible Surgical Extraction with a Street Wraith, and I do get it. In response, I use my second (crowd goes wild). I get a good start with a Cabal Therapy, start beating him with Ichorid, and I still have a Ravenous Trap in my hand. When he is at 13 he gets his griselbrand on, Entombs an Elesh Norn but doesn't have anything to reanimate her. I cast Ravenous Trap at the end of his turn (considering Lotus Petals, Entomb and Elesh) and... it gets Dazed. My dredge however the next turn is amazing, and I combo him down.

Semi-finals: Rodrigo, Burn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XbSt-USB5E
We decide to split, which I do under one condition: play it out. He has a flash start with T1 [cards]Monastery Swiftspear, T2 Monastery Swiftspear and Suspend Rift Bolt. I take the turn with 13 life, and get up to tempo with a Gitaxian Probe, seeing Gunshot, Fireblast, Lightning Bolt. Then I dredge a Narcomoeba, and with a Bridge from Below in my graveyard, a Phantasmagorian in my graveyard and Cabal Therapy in hand and one in Graveyard, I put my second Cabal Therapy in my graveyard with Phantasmagorian, and Therapy out the Fireblast and Lightning Bolt. He draws into Chain Lightning (although it could have been any of the burn spells he had). Rift Bolt, 13->10. Chain Lightning, 10->7. Gunshot, 7->6, and the two 4/5 Monastery Swiftspears finish me off.
SB:
+1 Contagion
+ 2 Force of Will
- 2 Nether Shadow
- 1 Gitaxian Probe
SB reasoning: I thought he might not see the Contagion coming for his Swiftspears, though chances are I can't even kill even just one with it. Force of Will against the staying threats, and the Nether Shadows are just slow. I don't know why I took Gitaxian Probe out, it doesn't make sense.
SB reflection: I should have bordered in Whirlpool Rider without taking Balustrade Spy out, I think. With his clock but close to free reign, I should focus on comboing out asap. Again, no idea what to side...

Game 2 (Youtube 10:00), He throws a Tormod's Crypt to Chancellor, and starts off with a Monastery Swiftspear, T2 Eidolon. I get an amazing start with at the end of my T2 (with Street Wraith and Probe) an Ichorid used for Cabal Therapy, Narcomoeba in play, and in my graveyard a Nether Shadow, 2 Bridges, Dread Return, He gets me down to 10 with mostly Eidolon of the Great Revel and a Monastery Swiftspear, and I combo him out then with Balustrade Spy. I'm editing this, back then I didn't even realize that that was a T2 kill.

Game 3, (Youtube 21:00) he starts with a T2 Eidolon, T3 Goblin Guide, after which I have a "lucky" dredge with after a Street Wraith having 3 Bridge from Below in my graveyard but no creature to do anything with it. The next turn he throws a Lightning Bolt at his own Goblin Guide to get rid of the bridges, but I manage to get a Dread Return out two turns later on a Balustrade Spy with a Nether Shadow, Ichorid and Narcomoeba, turning 3 Narcomoebas into my graveyard to finish it.

Finals: Victor, Storm (the guy going to New Jersey)
The first game he delays me a ton with Duress, Thoughtseize, and Cabal Therapy, but I do the same to him with 4 (!) Cabal Therapies while beating him with Ichorid. When he's at 9 and in topdeck mode, I manage to get Dread Return casted on Flayer of the Hatebound, and sacrificing him to another Dread Return without deck turners in my graveyard.
SB:
+2 Whirlpool Rider
+2 Force of Will
+1 Disrupting Shoal
-3 Nether Shadow
-2 Balustrade Spy
SB reasoning: I feel like Nether Shadow again is too slow here, and I need to focus on disruption.
SB reflection: I should have boarded in 2 more Disrupting Shoals to focus countering Infernal Tutor. I don't really have experience playing against storm, but you'll read this later on.

Game 2: Youtube 16:25 He went so fast this time. Second turn, he has a Lotus Petal, and plays a Lion's Eye Diamond. I feel the need to throw a Force of Will at it, he just plays another one, and Infernal Tutors his way to his combo. Darn! Learned something here.

Game 3: Youtube 23:20 I boarded in 2 more shoals for.. I don't know! What should I take out! He starts disrupting my every turn again starting out well since he puts me on the play. He can see my Disrupting Shoal, Narcomoeba, Force of Will, and Whirlpool Rider sitting in my hand. He first forces out the Force of Will by casting Ad Nauseum, and obviously seeing my hand (with Gitaxian Probe) but not finding an answer yet, I'm not finding my creatures. I guess I should not have taken out so many Nether Shadows? He later finds his answer in Lion's Eye Diamond, mana fixers, and hardcasted Past in Flames - picking my hand apart all again - and discarding an Infernal Tutor with his LED.

It was a great ride, I learned a lot, though I really need to work on my sideboarding. If your head hurts seeing this, then good! Tell me what you think!
Also, the deck is a blast to play.


PS the semi-finals and the finals are probably recorded and will be put up somewhere coming week, if anyone is interested

[easysantiago]

Heya guys how're you doing, today I could have made 1st on this GP New Jersey trial, but I misplayed :/. Because of all I've learnt from you guys and to share experiences, I won't do anything less than get a write up for you... a long one. Sorry for that =/.

GP Trial New Jersey
We had a 5 round GP New Jersey trial today in our local shop Retromex at the big central park (La Alameda) in Mexico City here, where I reached to the 2nd place :-).

Decklist:
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
3 Phantasmagorian
2 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Whirlpool Rider
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Force of Will
2 Balustrade Spy
SB: 3 Disrupting Shoal
SB: 2 Force of Will
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Balustrade Spy
SB: 1 Shambling Shell
SB: 2 Whirlpool Rider
SB: 1 Contagion
SB: 1 Phantasmagorian
Decklist explanation:
I wanted to try a different route here. Since I "always" win game one, I want to try to put sideboard elements into it while still ensuring victory in game 1 (i.e. if you usually beat the opponent 10 floors into the ground, why not use your energy differently if 1 floor into the ground is enough), mostly in this:

3 Phantasmagorian instead of 4: I feel that Phantasmagorian is great, but not always necessary: usually just discarding a dredger will do just perfectly. If you have something in your hand that needs to go to the graveyard, you can still do it 8th card-in-hand end of turn, or with a Phantasmagorian that comes later / Cabal Therapy. Against DRS, I kept one in the SB for safety.

2 Force of Will instead of 3-4: If we can beat someone to brambles with 0 FoW mainboard, why not beat someone solidly KO while at the same time saving up 2 SB spots.

2 Balustrade Spy and 2 Whirlpool Rider instead of 4 Whirlpool Rider: Balustrade Spy is definitely more solid considering Phantasmagorian shenanigans as well as a Ichorid target, while Whirlpool Rider is great for FoW. I liked this setup, definitely because it gave me a more solid chance against combo (being certain about a kill right here right now). On the other hand Whirlpool Rider was amazing against DRS where the opponent would always keep DRS open until my end of turn to wait for the Flayer. Whirlpool Rider is great if having 4/5th of your library in your graveyard is almost a certain win, but 5/5 of your library in your graveyard is plain death.

Sideboard: don't mind it too much, I didn't have mindbreak traps. It was mostly for flexibility options. Shambling Shell in case I didn't have enough dredgers (2 Shambling Shells wasn't a problem), 1 Balustrade Spy to go all in harder against decks on a clock, 2 Whirlpool Rider to go all in harder against a clock and/or fuel for my counters, Phantasmagorian against Deathrite Shaman/Surgical Extraction and the like.

Round 1: Vs Alberto, Thalia Goblins
First game, he doesn't get mana quickly for Thalia (which he accidentally shows via mountain, wasteland, Thalia... oops) and I get to start and continue dredging via Street Wraith, and Gitaxian Probe, getting the necessities for comboing out. A typical "goldfish match" - playing my own game, without anything to really bother me, but do me some damage.
SB:
-2 Balustrade Spy
-4 Chancellor of the Annex
-1 Nether Shadow
+2 Force of Will
+3 Disrupting Shoal
+2 Whirlpool Rider
SB reasoning: Whirlpool Rider in for Balustrade Spy as explained above, Nether Shadow I thought would be a bit slow (and cutting one isn't that bad), Forces in against possible Rest in Peace, and Thalia, as well as Disrupting Shoal. Chancellor out was because he can throw a cheap goblin and then play RiP anyway his second turn, or he can wait a turn and still be really aggressive. Chancellor wouldn't mean the difference between life and death here. Also, the other 3 (if I start with just one in hand) would be dead cards later.
SB reflection: Taking out the Chancellors was a good idea, Nether Shadow seems.. okay, with Thalia out it's good to have him, with the chance of RiP without counter he's not worth anything.
Game 2, he starts (which he later tells me he shouldn't have, so I can't draw, discard, dredge - only one other player did the same) he drops a Thalia, and I don't have a counter. Instead I get to go fast via Street Wraith, face off against Thalia, Goblin Lackey[cards], [cards]Goblin Rabblemaster, Goblin Warchief, and I win the arms race via Ichorids, a Narcomoeba, and a Nether Shadow (I end up at 5 when he dies).

Round 2: vs Cesar, BUG
He starts, throwing down a DRS. Luckily I have my Phantasmagorian, which gives me some options (Golgari Thug, Stinkweed Imp and X). It's hard for me to start going because he keeps slowing me down with DRS and I just don't get what I need. He counters my first Dread Return (casted blindly considering I'm on the clock), I try to get some shenanigans in with Ichorid and Nether Shadow, but he annoys me with Stifle on Ichorid, removing Nether Shadow with DRS, and something I forgot - all in one turn. He has to make some decisions on what to remove, but in the end my Bridge From Belows stay, and dredgers and Ichorids mostly go. I end up being able to combo him down with a second Dread Return.
SB:
-2 Balustrade Spy
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-1 Dread Return
-1 Nether Shadow
-1 Dread Return
+2 Force of Will
+3 Disrupting Shoal
+1 Phantasmagorian
+2 Whirlpool Rider
SB reasoning: two Gitaxian Probes out because i want to avoid easy targets for Daze, I wanted rather to focus on uncounterable threats. Otherwise.. I don't really know what I was thinking :/. Obviously I wanted to have some fuel against his counters, considering his DRS (and maybe Scavaging Oozes) would keep me on a clock. Plus the Phantasmagorian vs DRS.
SB reflection: I am still having a hard time deciding what to side out, and I obviously did some skimming here. Nether Shadow is slow at times, Dread Return should probably have been something else because it's always a game-ending threat with the right circumstances. Keeping Chancellor in was amazing, to give myself some time.
I start with Chancellor in hand, he throws a Delver of Secrets, and throws down a DRS next turn (followed by another one 4 turns later). I decide not to counter it with Force of Will (I also let a Tarmogoyf resolve), because I want to be able to counter one of his, him throwing me a clock anyway graveyardwise. This turns out to be a good choice: IIRC he uses a Flusterstorm on a Cabal Therapy, and I can Dread Return -> Whirlpool Rider most of my library in my graveyard, countering his Daze. There was some confusion because we both forgot the lifegain from his two DRS, and in one turn (when he remembers), he gains 8 life... I wasn't sure about this ruling, but the judge said so. I want to Dread Return my Flayer of the Hatebound, but he removes it with DRS. I proceed with the Bridge from Belows - he has a Tarmogoyf out, I have 13 tokens, 3 Nether Shadows, and 2 Ichorid against his 25 hp, Tarmogoyf, and 2 active Deathrite Shamans, but decide to wait to kill him off in one go the next turn with more tokens, exactly 29 in one go.

Round 3 vs Luis, Midrange
I start with a Phantasmagorian, dredger, and Chancellor in hand, he plays around it (but loses time) and gets a Deathrite Shaman down. However, via two Bridge from Belows, an Ichorid returned and hitting a Narcomoeba when dredging, using Cabal Therapy on myself for Dread Return, I get two tokens which I can use together with Ichorid to revive Chancellor of the Annex - he calls for the second match.
SB:
+ 1 Phantasmagorian
+1 Contagion
+1 Balustrade Spy
-2 Force of Will
-1 Nether Shadow
SB reasoning: you guys must go crazy seeing how I sideboard. My thoughts were: getting rid of Force of Will because if he plays Leyline of the Void: it doesn't help me, and his other threats I can play around if I'm fast enough - or I can use contagion for that, considering I have way more black spells. The extra Balustrade Spy was to increase my chances to combo off (considering I'm on a clock with DRS and he doesn't have counters).
SB reflection: it turned out that he played 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Nihil Spellbomb, and 1 Tormod's Crypt. Ouch. Always expect hate, although I was lucky here.
The second match I cannot really recall, I think I comboed off pretty easily. Only notable thing is that I used Cabal Therapy on myself to get Flayer of the Hatebound in my graveyard. Pretty standard, but I love doing that.

Round 4: Cesar, Affinity
We get a deckcheck, and even though earlier the judge looked at my 2 deck box and said "make sure you have your deck in 1 box next time", he did a "boxcheck" 1 round later and gave me a gameloss because I had a 5th Force of Will (in a different sleeve, for trading) in the box. Ugh.
We proceed and the game seems to be going quite well: I slow him down with Chancellor of the Annex. He gets an Etched Champion, I build up a token base with Ichorids, and get him down to 3. I'm at 12, he would get me down to about 4 life with his Etched Champion and Cranial Plating and.... topdecks another Cranial Plating. Oh well.

Round 5: Cesar, Imperial Painter (decided to 1-1 so we both get into top 8)
He is just too fast. We played 4.5 matches for fun, and with Ensnaring Bridge, siding out Blood Moons and the versatility and resilience of his deck and the speed: it's difficult to win. In the end it was 1-1 (2-0 and 0-2), mostly having difficulties with his Red Elemental Blasts and Pyroblasts when he tries to put down a Painter. This deck packs hate.


Knock-out rounds:

Quarter finals, top 8 vs Mager, BUReanimator
I get him the first game where we both make a terrible mistake: he tries to reanimate my first discarded Golgari Grave-troll with Animate Dead - while he had no creatures in his graveyard. To make matters worse, I Force of Will it. What-the-hell? He takes out some dredgers by using up two more Animate Dead on Golgari Thug and Stinkweed Imp, hoping for an Entomb (or anything like that), but he doesn't and I combo out with Balustrade Spy.
I totally forgot writing down what I sideboarded here, but it looked a bit like this:
+ 2 Force of Will
+ 1 Disrupting Shoal
+ 1 Ravenous Trap
+ 3 Faerie Macabre
+ 3 Whirlpool Rider
- 2 Balustrade Spy
- 4 Nether Shadow
- 1 Shambling Shell
- 2 Cabal Therapy
??
SB reasoning: Nether Shadow is too slow, if I can play Cabal Therapy, he is already having enough trouble and I'm on steam anyway, and I can perfectly disrupt his plays. Disrupting Shoal is too much of a miss here sometimes I felt considering the mana costs.
SB reflection: Disrupting Shoal would have been great against 8 of his reanimation spells (Exhume and Animate Dead), but honestly I just did not know what to take out.

Game 2:I can't remember a lot of this match, except that he was.. fast. He gets a griselbrand in his graveyard quickly, he searches for an Anger, attacks with Griselbrand[cards], draws another 7, finds his guns and Entombs an Elesh Norn which gets resurrected. Game over.

Game 3: I start with a.. I think a Stinkweed Imp in my graveyard, and two Street Wraiths in my hand. To keep my tempo up I decide to bait a possible Surgical Extraction with a Street Wraith, and I do get it. In response, I use my second (crowd goes wild). I get a good start with a Cabal Therapy, start beating him with Ichorid, and I still have a Ravenous Trap in my hand. When he is at 13 he gets his griselbrand on, Entombs an Elesh Norn but doesn't have anything to reanimate her. I cast Ravenous Trap at the end of his turn (considering Lotus Petals, Entomb and Elesh) and... it gets Dazed. My dredge however the next turn is amazing, and I combo him down.

Semi-finals: Rodrigo, Burn
We decide to split, which I do under one condition: play it out. He has a flash start with T1 [cards]Monastery Swiftspear, T2 Monastery Swiftspear and Suspend Rift Bolt. I take the turn with 13 life, and get up to tempo with a Gitaxian Probe, seeing Gunshot, Fireblast, Lightning Bolt. Then I dredge a Narcomoeba, and with a Bridge from Below in my graveyard, a Phantasmagorian in my graveyard and Cabal Therapy in hand and one in Graveyard, I put my second Cabal Therapy in my graveyard with Phantasmagorian, and Therapy out the Fireblast and Lightning Bolt. He draws into Chain Lightning (although it could have been any of the burn spells he had). Rift Bolt, 13->10. Chain Lightning, 10->7. Gunshot, 7->6, and the two 4/5 Monastery Swiftspears finish me off.
SB:
+1 Contagion
+ 2 Force of Will
- 2 Nether Shadow
- 1 Gitaxian Probe
SB reasoning: I thought he might not see the Contagion coming for his Swiftspears, though chances are I can't even kill even just one with it. Force of Will against the staying threats, and the Nether Shadows are just slow. I don't know why I took Gitaxian Probe out, it doesn't make sense.
SB reflection: I should have bordered in Whirlpool Rider without taking Balustrade Spy out, I think. With his clock but close to free reign, I should focus on comboing out asap. Again, no idea what to side...

Game 2, he gets me down to 10 with mostly Eidolon of the Great Revel and a Monastery Swiftspear, and I combo him out then with Balustrade Spy.

Game 3, he starts with a T2 Eidolon, T3 Goblin Guide, after which I have a "lucky" dredge with after a Street Wraith having 3 Bridge from Below in my graveyard but no creature to do anything with it. The next turn he throws a Lightning Bolt at his own Goblin Guide to get rid of the bridges, but I manage to get a Dread Return out two turns later on a Balustrade Spy with a Nether Shadow, Ichorid and Narcomoeba, turning 3 Narcomoebas into my graveyard to finish it.

Finals: Victor, Storm (the guy going to New Jersey)
The first game he delays me a ton with Duress, Thoughtseize, and Cabal Therapy, but I do the same to him with 4 (!) Cabal Therapies while beating him with Ichorid. When he's at 9 and in topdeck mode, I manage to get Dread Return casted on Flayer of the Hatebound, and sacrificing him to another Dread Return without deck turners in my graveyard.
SB:
+2 Whirlpool Rider
+2 Force of Will
+1 Disrupting Shoal
-3 Nether Shadow
-2 Balustrade Spy
SB reasoning: I feel like Nether Shadow again is too slow here, and I need to focus on disruption.
SB reflection: I should have boarded in 2 more Disrupting Shoals to focus countering Infernal Tutor. I don't really have experience playing against storm, but you'll read this later on.
Game 2: He went so fast this time. Second turn, he has a Lotus Petal, and plays a Lion's Eye Diamond. I feel the need to throw a Force of Will at it, he just plays another one, and Infernal Tutors his way to his combo. Darn! Learned something here.

Game 3: I boarded in 2 more shoals for.. I don't know! What should I take out! He starts disrupting my every turn again starting out well since he puts me on the play. He can see my Disrupting Shoal, Narcomoeba, Force of Will, and Whirlpool Rider sitting in my hand. He first forces out the Force of Will by casting Ad Nauseum, and obviously seeing my hand (with Gitaxian Probe) but not finding an answer yet, I'm not finding my creatures. I guess I should not have taken out so many Nether Shadows? He later finds his answer in Lion's Eye Diamond, mana fixers, and hardcasted Past in Flames - picking my hand apart all again - and discarding an Infernal Tutor with his LED.

It was a great ride, I learned a lot, though I really need to work on my sideboarding. If your head hurts seeing this, then good! Tell me what you think!
Also, the deck is a blast to play.


PS the semi-finals and the finals are probably recorded and will be put up somewhere coming week, if anyone is interested

Congrats and thanks for the report! I am interested in seeing the finals.

[Thrasher]

....
Congratulations on the result!

On the list: i wouldn't cut the 4th phantasmagorian. Deathrite shaman is one of the few cards that can make you lose game one, so having at least 12 answers to it seems the minimum, to me. Force of Will is not good at dealing with it.

On the sideboarding strategies:
Match 1: seems fair.
Match 2: i would not side in shoal. It's bad at dealing with cage, and most lists don't play more than two of those. Force is fine, but i would not cut Gitaxian Probe. You can blind therapy before casting it to make sure it resolve. I'd have left in Nether Shadow and 2 Probes.
Match 3: i don't think you need more DR targets. They have DRS to weaken Dread Returns and you already have enough targets for that.
Match 5: siding versus reanimator is really complicated. Probably doing +2 Rider +2 Shoal instead of +3+1 is safer. You aren't going to win if you don't stop him from comboing anyway.
Match 6: as you said, it was probably better to keep probe in.
Match 7: Disrupting Shoal > Whirlpool Rider. Chancellor is stellar as a DR target in this matchup, whirlpool rider often becomes unnecessary: i usually leave only one in. Flayer is not necessary, either: If you resolve a DR on rider, reanimating 1/2 chancellors + therapies is more than enough. You win anyway without dedicating a slot for a card that's dead in a lot of situations.

[Mitalca]

Congrats on the result man! Really nice
Still, I don't get this: play FoW main as a way to free SB space, and then fill the SB with what is normally MD cards
I mean, I'm not sure about cutting Phanta or the Shell, but if you do, I think you should cut them for good. But if you do that, you lose the classic "I don't know what else to take" board option
And 2 FoW seems so little to me, most times it's just telling what you'll do game 2. From your report, it seems like you only got to use them 1 time in game 1, even if it was a mistake. Do you still think is ok to keep 2 FoW main?
On the side, I never cut more than 2 Shadows, and almost never more than 1
Anyway, just one counter away from winning the tournament, so it was a great ride

[Daize]

Hehe thanks guys, it was pretty close indeed :-)

The idea is that with drawing 4-6 cards a turn, it's fine to have just some dead cards around. FoW may "just alright" to have in your opening hand - it's like an unexpected treat, but won't be missed otherwise in game 1. It won't prevent you from going off either: it's 2 out of 60, and with "drawing 4-6 cards a turn" you won't have a so called useless draw either.

However, from the sideboard perspective, 2 out of 15 is a lot. One big thing which probably confuses you a lot, is that my sideboard is far from ready. Furthermore, I wanted to try this out, and be able to side in if it didn't work out.

Normally my sideboard would probably roughly look like this:
2 FoW
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Faerie Macabre <-- these are just insane, extremely versatile.

Metagame dependent:
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ashen Rider
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Sickening Shoal

I'm indeed cutting the shell and phantasmagorian for good. It's also fine if they can see me play FoW: we exert such an amount of pressure that regularly doesn't use up about 5 cards in hand, so we keep them guessing if we have it or not. Meanwhile, we continue. In that sense, the deck is pretty straightforward, IMO.

[easysantiago]

Any concerns about Containment Priest? I don't think it is anymore of a problem than TC, RIP, DRS, etc., but I thought I would table the issue for discussion.

Containment Priest:
1W
Creature - Human Cleric
Flash
If a nontoken creature would enter the battlefield and it wasn't cast, exile it instead.

[Mr. Froggy]

Any concerns about Containment Priest? I don't think it is anymore of a problem than TC, RIP, DRS, etc., but I thought I would table the issue for discussion.

Containment Priest:
1W
Creature - Human Cleric
Flash
If a nontoken creature would enter the battlefield and it wasn't cast, exile it instead.

Damn it... why oh why do they hate us so much?

[Daize]

Kinda annoying that it's a human and like Thalia can be cast off of Cavern of Souls. Against us having both of them is a perfect lock. Meh, what're you gonna do. They'll have to remove something to add this baby, we'll see whether it'll be worth it to them. You'd play counters against it, I don't think it'll be worth it to play e.g. Sickening Shoal/Contagion just because of it (considering RiP and Thalia will still be around anyway), but depends on your metagame -_-

[meffeo]

Crappy new card

Imho, it will be played. It hurts not only Dredge but also Reanimator and S&S, not to mention Elves (GSZ...).

Fortunately W isn't so popular these Delver days... Anyway, we should bring again the Disrupting Shoal (if anyone of you ever took them out) and not let the Priest solve.

Did I forget something? Yeah, right, it's called Flickerwisp dude...

[gibbousm]

While I am worried about Containment Priest its not that scary. As a creature its more vulnerable to removal. Also its a nonbo with Aether Vial so it likely won't be run in the mainboard. While it does worry me, after thinking things through, it doesn't worry me as much as it used to. Considering that both it and RIP have the same cost it doesn't worry me any more than RIP does.

[easysantiago]

Damn it... why oh why do they hate us so much?

Yeah...*cries tears of blood into the void*

[potatodavid]

Thalia is harder to deal with that the priest.

[Mr. Froggy]

My friend is gonna rock my Griselbrand Manaless at GPNJ this weekend! He's been doing pretty good with during our testing.

[Mr. Froggy]

My friend 4-0'd at our LGS today with my list! I lost to him...

[P-E]

well done what was your list ?

long time since i didn't play manaless but how is containement priest affecting us ?
some contagions/shoal in side ?

[jamie7keller]

I have been concerned seeing chalice of the void grow in popularity (largely to fight UR Delver). With Cabal Therapy shut off, we can't make the coast clear for dread return. I am a little behind the times, not having counter spells in the deck, but if I can't make them discard their counters, my goal of dread return spy, dread return flayer of the hatebound, dread return grave troll seems dangerous.

Has anyone else had a problem with Chalice? Is this really a "play force of will or get out" sort of meta for manaless?

[Mr. Froggy]

I've been explaining this to people, Manaless doesn't need the combo win, just grind out the games with Ichorid and Nether Shadow. They are more than enough.

[jamie7keller]

I've been explaining this to people, Manaless doesn't need the combo win, just grind out the games with Ichorid and Nether Shadow. They are more than enough.


Oh, I agree and have done that. But if I can't clear their hand, it makes even attempting the combo a risk, as a good player would let you deck yourself and then counter your game winning reanimations.

I'm not sure chalice is enough of a problem yet, but is there a point where the combo becomes so unlikely/dangerous that we cut the combo From the deck, or maybe add worldspine worm type cards to keep us from decking ourself after a spy?

[Mr. Froggy]

I run Griselbrand as my DR target because he adds flexibility to the deck, as well as being a threat by himself.

[Michael Keller]

And decks that tend to run Chalice aren't likely to run Force of Will or Daze. Chalice is really the least of this deck's problems.

[jamie7keller]

Ok. Thanks. I havnt been playing manaless as much lately as I would like, or even following coverage as close as I should, so have had to guess how the meta shifts will affect my decks. Thanks for clearing that up that I was overly worried (or worried about the wrong thing)


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[Daize]

It's been really silent here... I guess atm the deck is pretty much finished, can't make a lot of metagame choices, and not a lot of new cards are coming out for it...

[jamie7keller]

I have faith and remain vigilant. Dredge is always strong when no one expects it. If it it poorly placed now, it will be absent from tournaments (or at least top tables) and everyone will ease off their graveyard hate. Patience. :)


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[easysantiago]

It's been really silent here... I guess atm the deck is pretty much finished, can't make a lot of metagame choices, and not a lot of new cards are coming out for it...

I am planning to run a pretty standard Spy list at my LGS in two weeks (Legacy night doesn't come often where I play). The deck is still around; it just isn't making it to SCG coverage anymore.

[Daize]

Oh, I meant 'finished' as in: there's not a lot we can do to optimize it even more, I feel :-). Otherwise, I don't feel like the graveyard hate has become too much.

[Daize]

About that: is SCG really the only big MTG coverage / website thing left?

[jamie7keller]

SCG is the biggest and best. Chanel fireball does coverage also, as does wizards.


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[easysantiago]

Oh, I meant 'finished' as in: there's not a lot we can do to optimize it even more, I feel :-). Otherwise, I don't feel like the graveyard hate has become too much.

Ah, I see. My mistake! I am still holding out that someone with more experience and some time to spare will further optimize the deck.

On another note, WotC hasn't printed anything in Khans that is too detrimental to the Dredge archetype; perhaps in the next block WotC will incidentally print new tech.

[jamie7keller]

So this is a side topic, but I had to ask. With Golgari Grave Troll unbanned in modern, can anyone figure out how to make a modern deck out of manaless dredge? I've seen a few lists but they all seem terrible.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Ah, I see. My mistake! I am still holding out that someone with more experience and some time to spare will further optimize the deck.

On another note, WotC hasn't printed anything in Khans that is too detrimental to the Dredge archetype; perhaps in the next block WotC will incidentally print new tech.

Unfortunately, we're stuck with narrow options when it comes to a mana less deck. I can't get away from any of these cards in my main

16 dredgers
12 free creatures
4 Bridges
4 Therapy
4 DR
4 DR targets
4 Phantasmagorian
8 free cantrips

and that only leaves 4 available spots for flexibility without sacrificing consistency.

A problem that I've encountered one too many times is getting locked out by Thalia, and I'm pretty close to adding a single Dakmor Salvage just to escape that lock. To be honest, there aren't many game one problems that require us to change the deck. But post-board we still have work to do since our wins come by and large because our opponent whiffs on hate either g2 or g3. FoW and Shoal have been the best in my experience, but I'd be happy to find something even better.

[Echelon]

and that only leaves 4 available spots for flexibility without sacrificing consistency.


Well... I did switch dredger no. 16 for a Progenitus. It helps in long, grindy games where you've already burned through a number of DR's before getting Spy on the battlefield. It allows you to set up a nice Ichorid/token-onslaught by the time your opponent goes topdeck mode.

Heck, I've even managed to fend off an Entreat the Angels with that little trick. My opponent couldn't kill me in 1 swing so he had to keep his ponies home to do some blocking until a couple of turns later he succumbed to my ever growing army. Who needs a library anyways?

On the downside - dredging into Progenitus just sucks. And since Progenitus is Progenitus, he likes to show up as often as he can. Three times in a row, if needed *sigh*.

[jimmythegreek]

so its been awhile since I've played this deck but I figured it was time to bring manaless back to my local store. I'm playing the normal list with balustrade spy and flayer. Theres alot of bug delver, dnt, some storm and other rwu delver variants. Honestly theres a little of everything at my lgs but mostly tier 1 decks, ive seen very few graveyard strategies hence why I feel it's time to give manaless a go.

Sideboard:
4 Mindbreak trap
3 Contagion
2 Ashen tider
2 Sickening shoal
4 Faerie macabre ( should this be lotv?)

Any advice is totally appreciated and shall be considered. Against something like reanimator its correct to bring in grave-hate plus the shoals, what else are shoals used against? I am a bit concerned with thalia.....is it reasonable to cut a spy for one griselbrand and side a darkmor salvage? Hopefully I can get a mini report up by sunday, thanks!

[Echelon]

Don't discount the number of Containment Priest/Grafdigger's Cage/Rest in Peace in the various sideboards. Last tournament I was in had me face that stuff in 3 of my 4 MU's. The 4th MU being vs. ANT, so that wasn't much better.

Admittedly, I was playing Elves! but still... Being on Manaless would have made me an even sadder panda, lol.

[BJeagle]

Just started to play M. Dreadge and play the nofear version. My sb is mostly against combo and gravyard, my favorit is Unmask. Like the option to target my self and then start to dredge turn 1. When i was looking at the "database" and found the blue chancellor (chancellor of the spires). Isnt this a really good card for at explosiv start? Or am I missing something?

[dte]

When i was looking at the "database" and found the blue chancellor (chancellor of the spires). Isnt this a really good card for at explosiv start? Or am I missing something?

It's indeed the best card you can imagine in the first grip ... of your opponent.

If you can persuade him/her to play it, you will have really explosive starts.

[BJeagle]

Each opponent... Ahh, haha. Sorry.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Dakmor Salvage proved to be completely useless. It never worked, even in sb games where DnT had some number of Port/Wastes removed from their deck.

You can play the counterspells main board in your flex spots and by trimming elsewhere. You'll be a little less consistent but you'll have outs to Thalia game one, as well as opposing combo. You also open up 8 sideboard slots, which really makes this idea appealing now that I think about it.

And while I'm on the subject, this deck's sideboard has always been terrible. Has anybody tested any ideas for new sideboard cards or even looked? I know I haven't tried very hard.

[Echelon]

The only "odd" thing that I've been running is a Bane of Progress so I don't get locked out of the game when my opponent lands Platinum Angel + Lightning Greaves, but that is so incredibly corner case that it's hardly worth considering.

That's a dream I lived... well... once! After Unmasking a Trinisphere no less, lol.

On another note, what do you people board out to make room for other cards in games 2 and 3? I tend to take our Gitaxian Probes first (since Ichorid can't eat them) and after that the Street Wraiths go. The deck gets a bit slower, but the engine is kept intact. I tend to board in like 8 to 10 cards whenever I'm sideboarding, lol. For cards 9 and 10, it depends on the MU and is often a combination of Progenitus/Dread Return/Balustrade Spy/Chancellor of the Annex, though never more than 1 of each.

[igri_is_a_bk]

The only "odd" thing that I've been running is a Bane of Progress so I don't get locked out of the game when my opponent lands Platinum Angel + Lightning Greaves, but that is so incredibly corner case that it's hardly worth considering.

That's a dream I lived... well... once! After Unmasking a Trinisphere no less, lol.

On another note, what do you people board out to make room for other cards in games 2 and 3? I tend to take our Gitaxian Probes first (since Ichorid can't eat them) and after that the Street Wraiths go. The deck gets a bit slower, but the engine is kept intact. I tend to board in like 8 to 10 cards whenever I'm sideboarding, lol. For cards 9 and 10, it depends on the MU and is often a combination of Progenitus/Dread Return/Balustrade Spy/Chancellor of the Annex, though never more than 1 of each.

If you're playing Unmask, then those were cards #57-60 added to your deck and they're the first to be sided out. Unmask is really good against Stoneforge decks, so that is the only time I'd say to excuse this rule.

But you're also running Chancellor which means your deck is configured differently than mine. Regardless, those can also be sided out in high numbers. They are not mandatory at all for the engine, but help every MU just like Unmask. I'd side out those fluff cards before any "core" stuff like dredgers, DR, DR-targets, etc.

[Echelon]

I used to run Unmasks in the MB as well. At some point I chose to switch them out for Chancellors as they buy you some time while not requiring another card to do so (where Unmask does). Also, the Chancellor's ability can't be countered where Unmask can. I mean, in that regard we're pretty much powerless vs. FoW/Daze. I like how Chancellor turns into a nice DR target. I prefer having a Chancellor in the graveyard over having an Unmask there.

I agree on the siding out Unmasks, I used to do that too with mine (where I tend to keep the Chancellors in when SB'ing), hence my question. The only real fluff cards that are left when playing Chancellors are Probe & Wraith (or at least in my opinion).

For reference, here is my 60:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Progenitus
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Nothing special, but what the heck. The sideboard is a mix of Mindbreak Traps, Contagions, Unmasks, Faerie Macabres and the Bane of Progress (I believe 4/4/4/2/1).

[Michael Keller]

Thinking about firing up the Manaless train again.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I purchased this deck on modo so I'm going to have a lot more opportunities to fiddle with it. I did go with Chancellors instead of Unmask mostly because of the price tag. It was something like 0.1 tickets vs. 25 tickets :eyebrow:

[Empyrica]

I purchased this deck on modo so I'm going to have a lot more opportunities to fiddle with it. I did go with Chancellors instead of Unmask mostly because of the price tag. It was something like 0.1 tickets vs. 25 tickets :eyebrow:


:eyebrow: why would it be so expensive on MTGO? A rise in Vintage popularity online maybe?

[datanaga]

Hi all,
today i purchased this complete deck in paper for about 85 USD (price was calculated without 3x nether shadow and 2x leyline of the void which I already have) deckbox, double sleeves and 20 zombie tokens included. Crazy price compared to my other legacy decks/staples:)

decklist:

mainboard:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Balustrade Spy
2 Unmask
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Flamekin Zealot

sideboard:

4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Ashen Rider
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Mishra´s Bauble
4 Sickening Shoal
1 Noxious Revival

Not sure if decklist above is optimal, because I have never played this archetype, but I have a lot of legacy experience.

I probably would prefer play Chancelors main (over Unmask) to fight Deathrite Shamans (jund and bug delver is popular in my meta right now). Im not sure if I like Unmask (on the draw) very much, because we want 8 cards in hand at the end of turn one, right? It means that we usually want to play it on turn two? It seems bit late to me, because on the draw, opponent can already play his one drop (deathrite) and two drop (thalia, rip post sb).

Btw I also already have some other free probably SB cards which are possible to use:

4 leyline of the void
4 faerie macabre
4 surgical extraction
4 force of will
4 contagion (sickening shoal seems better to me, because it can kill scavenging ooze with thoughtness bigger than 2)
4 tormods crypt

actually dont have any:
white leylines, mindbreak traps

Any recommendations are welcomed:)

Regards and sorry for my English Im not native speaker:)

[Mitalca]

The best advice I can give is to read the whole thread. At least the last pages
There you'll find what seems to be the optimal build with fow and blue shoal. Some put them in the main, some in the side
You should change the spys for Whirlpool rider
Mindbreak trap is recommended

Ps: whats your native language?

[Echelon]

There you'll find what seems to be the optimal build with fow and blue shoal.


Except that build never put up any respectable finish whatsoever where the Spy/Griselbrand-version has (on extremely rare occasion, lol).

I prefer the Spy-list with Chancellors. You don't have to care about your hand and eliminate the risk of turning the Rider into a blank b/c you emptied out your hand. It gives you the best chance for the combo finish (which can happen as early as turn 2).

[datanaga]

Thanks for advices I will study this thread and all decklists.

Ps: whats your native language? Im from Prague / Czech Republic

[Mitalca]

I've won a 33 players tournament with it, not a lot but more than usual around here
Anyway, everyone can have his opinion. There was a consensus in the thread, thought

[Michael Keller]

Except that build never put up any respectable finish whatsoever where the Spy/Griselbrand-version has (on extremely rare occasion, lol).

I prefer the Spy-list with Chancellors. You don't have to care about your hand and eliminate the risk of turning the Rider into a blank b/c you emptied out your hand. It gives you the best chance for the combo finish (which can happen as early as turn 2).

I'd like to think placing 13th out of 173 people is a bit more than respectable.

That aside, pick your poison.

[d0nkey]

To each their own.

I love the unmask version. But make no mistake, this is a gimmick deck. You'll win when people are unprepared to fight dredge, and you'll lose when they are. Them's the breaks.

I play this deck when I'm really drunk or I don't feel like grinding out games locally. I wouldn't take this to a major event.

[Mitalca]

The idea behind the blue package was to reduce that fragility you mention.
Even so, If everyone is bringing a LOT of hate for the match, you'll loose. But any deck can be hated out
I'll take this to a major event, and I think it has better chances there, where everyone is bringing a more wide spectrum side

[jimmythegreek]

Dredge is an extremely powerful mechanic and when people are unprepared they lose, this is nothing new. Yes, if people are prepared in your local meta its gonna be tough to compete with decks packing cage or rip especially the ones with cantrips. In larger tournaments people are gonna eschew copies of hate to fight more popular archetypes, rather two to three copies rather than a possible four. Dredge is much more than a "niche" deck. It's a deck that punishes the unprepared and thrives in diverse metas. In the end I play dredge cuz it's just soo cool and different and I know I may lose to top-decked hate. I also understand I can win in absolutely dominating fashion while my opponent sits there with an empty hand completely helpless. For me playing this deck is a personal choice. I dredge, I don't brainstorm......and you'll never see me cast stoneforge mystic.

[Echelon]

The idea behind the blue package was to reduce that fragility you mention.

Unfortunately at the cost of the combo finish, which is the biggest thing pulling me to this deck. You just keep your beats on while threatening to go off.

[Shoggoth]

Unfortunately at the cost of the combo finish, which is the biggest thing pulling me to this deck. You just keep your beats on while threatening to go off.

Having played a blue build in competitive events for quite a while now, I can tell you that it is pretty rare that resolving a Dread Return on a Whirlpool Rider does not result in a kill that turn. Being able to interact with hate post board, as well as having game against faster combo decks, makes it a massively better deck than the "pray they have nothing" approach. That is a budget build, which is why it has been played a lot more, which is why a couple people have managed to get lucky enough to make decent finishes with it. That's really all there is to it.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Having played a blue build in competitive events for quite a while now, I can tell you that it is pretty rare that resolving a Dread Return on a Whirlpool Rider does not result in a kill that turn.

That's only true if you are always setting up for it, which sometimes means waiting beyond a turn that Griselbrand or Spy would have won the game. Any hand with Phantasmagorian + Nether Shadow* is going to require us to dump six cards on our opponent's EOT to use Shadow on our upkeep. That means we have three cards in hand for a turn two DR. We just can't afford to lose to our own deck ever when we aren't given many lines of play in the first place.

*Not considering Street Wraith in the hand because 3 card combo at that point.

[Shoggoth]

That's only true if you are always setting up for it, which sometimes means waiting beyond a turn that Griselbrand or Spy would have won the game. Any hand with Phantasmagorian + Nether Shadow* is going to require us to dump six cards on our opponent's EOT to use Shadow on our upkeep. That means we have three cards in hand for a turn two DR. We just can't afford to lose to our own deck ever when we aren't given many lines of play in the first place.

*Not considering Street Wraith in the hand because 3 card combo at that point.

How often are you Dread Returning on turn two, with any build of this deck? Requires quite the nut draw. Turn 3-4 is normal. Even worst case scenario, in terms of hand size, if you are Returning a Whirlpool Rider with three cards in hand, that really isn't even that bad. Protip: if one trigger doesn't get you to Flayer, you can usually just Return a Rider again, using Cabal Therapy to sac the one in play if you don't have another in the yard by that point. You have four Returns, and only need three for the "combo kill."

I am not denying that a blue build is slightly less efficient in game 1. However, that is well worth the massive increase in resiliency in post-board games.

[Mitalca]

I think that anyone who sees this as an all-in-combo deck is just not seeing the strongest side of the deck, its resiliency
Plus, T2 kill without wraith or probe means you need the god hand and the god dredge

[Echelon]

I think that anyone who sees this as an all-in-combo deck is just not seeing the strongest side of the deck, its resiliency

That would be your typical opponent, lol.

[Michael Keller]

The new primer is coming.

[meffeo]

The new primer is coming.

Go for it. Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

[Mr. Froggy]

I think that anyone who sees this as an all-in-combo deck is just not seeing the strongest side of the deck, its resiliency Plus, T2 kill without wraith or probe means you need the god hand and the god dredge I love that the deck can go off when the opponent least expects it. But yeah, the resiliency of Manaless is awesome.

[easysantiago]

The new primer is coming.

Looking forward to it!

[Echelon]

The new primer is coming.

Awesome!

[Michael Keller]

After quite some time, it finally felt great to indulge in Manaless once again. I wound up going with my traditional blue list:

Manaless Dredge
by Hollywood

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Dread Return
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Gitaxian Probe
[3x] Force of Will
[3x] Shambling Shell
[3x] Whirlpool Rider
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

//Sideboard
[4x] Disrupting Shoal
[4x] Contagion
[2x] Ashen Rider
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Snapback
[1x] Force of Will

Here were my match-ups:

Death and Taxes: Destroyed them game one, and brought in the Shoals and Force. Opponent goes for the turn-two Rest in Peace and I counter it with Disrupting Shoal pitching Narcomoeba. I had previously discarded a Golgari Grave-Troll for the turn and proceeded to dredge into Ichorids and Shadows over the next few turns. I also had two more Forces in hand.

[1-0]

U/b Tezzeret: I started off with a slow hand using Shambling Shell to get things going. By the time I could get business going, he landed Humility. I did have Bridges in my graveyard, but with a Sword of the Meek in play he managed to top-deck a Thopter Foundry (naturally after the turn I cast Cabal Therapy for it). I didn't know if he had Grafdigger's Cage as a sideboard option, as I was expecting Nihil Spellbomb. I didn't board into Shoals and took my chances. He opened with Cage and I scooped them up.

[1-1]

Burn: I opened with double-Street Wraith and Golgari Grave-Troll, which wound up just destroying him. It was four life paid, but I finished the game at about six life and ripped his hand apart. I also Forced a Flame Rift at one point. I then paid the burn player back with Flayer and Troll for arbitrary. In game two he just couldn't open with a Crypt and I wound up just demolishing him again with Ichorid and Shadow systematic beats.

[2-1]

Sneak and Show: After my opponent durdles for a little while with cantrips, I'm able to begin the assault with multiple Ichorids in conjunction with Cabal Therapy. That alone forced him to dump his hand with multiple Forces, and all he had in his hand were two Emrakuls and a Spell Pierce - with no open blue. I Dread Return Flayer and kill him. I actually did the unthinkable in game two and mulliganed(!). My opening hand was atrocious, and I figured I got a freebee because my opponent mulliganed as well. If he was going for the fast Show and Tell, I wanted to make sure I opened with Ashen Rider. Sure enough, my opponent on his second turn cast Show and Tell. He flips Omniscience and I flip Ashen Rider. From there five damage a turn did him in. (He did manage to Echoing Truth the Rider at four life, but the beats came with Shadows and Ichorids which sealed the deal.)

[3-1]

I felt very comfortable with the list and sideboard for my meta. The counter package proved huge in critical situations, especially against Rest in Peace. I always tinker around with the board, but again I like the two Faerie Macabres main to combat troublesome graveyard-based strategies game one. It also augments Ichorid and Nether Shadow, in addition to breaking the Relic lock. Highly multifaceted and still a part of my main. A very slow hand and start game one against Tezz just did me in, as I couldn't hit any Phantasmagorian, Street Wraith or Probe, so I kind of slow-dredged the game out.

It kind of made me get an itch to try Serum Powder again.

[Michael Keller]

Just beat two Relics and a Surgical. Always fight the good fight:



http://i.imgur.com/PBHCkBk.jpg

[Michael Keller]

New primer can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29336-Primer-Manaless-Dredge)!

Still more to come!

[easysantiago]

New primer can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29336-Primer-Manaless-Dredge)!

Still more to come!

This is fantastic.