[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

[Final Fortune]

Honestly, in the list I'm using above, I don't miss FKZ, and don't think I need a way to win right away. Maybe it's because I don't play much against combo, but for the other match-ups, winning the next turn is enough.
But well the list I play is relatively different too.

In all fairness I don't think a list with lands belongs in this thread, Manaless Dredge is a very specific glass cannon archetype.

[Gui]

In all fairness I don't think a list with lands belongs in this thread, Manaless Dredge is a very specific glass cannon archetype.

I understand. But I've seen it happen before (trying to add lands) and just tryed to take advance of the list that show to create some discussion.

Also, it plays similar to manaless, more than to spell-full versions. But I respect that.

[GoldenCid]

Does it worth to run a set of Dryad Arbor to get a set of reverent silence in the side¿?¿?

[Mindlash]

Does it worth to run a set of Dryad Arbor to get a set of reverent silence in the side¿?¿?

I once tried a sideboard with 3 Forest, 4 Landgrant, 4 Reverent Silence and 4 Nature's Claim. Have seen it somewhere on the internet and gave it a shot.

The first problem ist: You cannot reliably mulligan into the needed cards without timewalking you with this deck.

Second problem was: Once I had the "perfekt" hand to fight Leyline I was dead before I could get into the game. Since you usually win game 1 your opponent gets to choose who goes and who draws. If he is smart he will choose you to go which equalizes him on beeing on the go and draw since you can do nothing turn 1.

If he puts into play a turn zero Leyline and chooses you to go you have your 7 handcards. Play the forest, resolve the reverent silence and pass. You are on 5 hand cards now and have to draw 3 turns to start dredging on the follwing which is pretty slow.

I moved away from the landcards/antileylinecards in my sideboard/maindeck. You are dead even if you managed to destroy the ley.

My Sideboard now contains some cards to slow combo down, accelerate my deck further or kill Elesh-Norn (Sickening Shoal). I think its not worth trying to fight leyline/cage with this deck. I think its not even possible with the cardpool we have without the huge drawback which is why this is my Casual-BBQ-Fun-Dredge Deck for now :-)

Has anyone tested LED with Looting in this Deck? It might be helpful from time to time though you need to have both cards in your starting 7 to take the maximum benefit out of it...perhaps with Serum Powder...I dunno...

[Final Fortune]

Yeah it's been tested, re-read the thread.

[KevinTrudeau]

Has anyone tested LED with Looting in this Deck? It might be helpful from time to time though you need to have both cards in your starting 7 to take the maximum benefit out of it...perhaps with Serum Powder...I dunno...

Read post #458.

I found Serum Powder to be a tad subpar; not completely unplayable, just subpar.

[GoldenCid]

So at last i got my Phantasmagorian is this viable or it's the most effective bizarre / casual deck?

[John Cox]

I think there's better things you can do with dredge right now.

[GoldenCid]

I think there's better things you can do with dredge right now.

Off course, but don't you think that ML Dredge can give fight? I'm not saying winning a SCG open (Who knows anyway?) but making tops.
Indeed i dont see the "fatal cards" so often, that why i'm tempted...

[ESG]

Manaless is still playable, sure. You'll be disadvantaged against fast combo decks and faster Dredge decks, though, so take that into account along with the "fatal" cards.

[GoldenCid]

Manaless is still playable, sure. You'll be disadvantaged against fast combo decks and faster Dredge decks, though, so take that into account along with the "fatal" cards.

Off course. Manaless is a turn slower than the traditional versions, that is true. However in my playtest I have seen that I can really fight. The main advantage of manaless is the very low mull ratio. So the opponent MUST have the right card or combination if them, otherwise, thing could go bad. Indeed!

[Michael Keller]

Got a spicy little brew for the Open in D.C.

I mean. playing LED Dredge for almost two years straight has brought me back around to wanting to try Manaless again - or at least partially without mana in my new version.

[GoldenCid]

- or at least partially without mana in my new version.

I'd be granted if you want to share it! :-)

[Michael Keller]

I'd be granted if you want to share it! :-)

I kind of want to keep it under wraps until after Sunday; it's nothing extravagantly new, but it's been testing pretty strong.

[GoldenCid]

I kind of want to keep it under wraps until after Sunday; it's nothing extravagantly new, but it's been testing pretty strong.

Ok, no problem...at least tell me if it solves at least partially the problem with leyline or cage or if you focused on the actual strenghts of it.

[Michael Keller]

It does not straight-up lose to Leyline or Cage - at all.

And one of the reasons I am playing a variation of it is because of the lack there-of of those two hate cards; Leyline and Cage are actually seeing minimal play right now, as opposed to Crypt and Extraction. I just don't fear them in general.

There will be Ghoultree.

[GoldenCid]

There will be Ghoultree.

Nice but you still need green mana...

[Michael Keller]

Got a spicy little brew for the Open in D.C.

I mean. playing LED Dredge for almost two years straight has brought me back around to wanting to try Manaless again - or at least partially without mana in my new version.

[HokusSchmokus]

So in order to move this discussion to the right forum :
I recently gut the urge to play manaless again because I feel it could ve good right now. I took the list Hollywood posted and changed the sideboard around a bit:
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
2 Griselbrand
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

SB:
4 Sickening Shoal
4 Nature's Claim
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
4 Noxious Revival

I chose to cut the 4 Reverent Silence because I expect a few Cages and no Leylines in my Meta. The Revivals makes you able to find either land or Claim much faster as you can still Dredge while Caged.Also it lets you find Shoals if you board it in against Maverick.
I will play in a tournament tomorrow and I expect lots of Canadian,Maverick and Miracle so I am curious if this is the right call.

[Michael Keller]

Top 8'ed the Jupiter Games Duel for Duals event with Manaless (90 players).

List and report to follow!

[iPhael]

Top 8'ed the Jupiter Games Duel for Duals event with Manaless (90 players).

List and report to follow!

Glad to hear it! I'm excited to see the new brew and how she plays out :)

[Michael Keller]

In the interim, here (http://www.jupitergamesonline.com/articles/2012/51634/nelc-decklists-duel-for-40-duals-september-8th-2012) is the list I played.

Quick Notes

1. Dryad Arbor was awesome.
2. Sundering Titan was awesome.
3. Contagion/Shoal from the main/board (3/1, 1/3) were awesome.
4. Dread Return was the trump.
5. RUG sucks against this deck.

This was an exercise geared specifically towards exploiting the strengths of Dread Return, hence the Arbors. I'll write up a report tomorrow.

[DarkJester]

Congratulations Hollywood,
seems to be the right time to grind a few tournaments with manaless Ichorid.I also T8'ed (5th place) a 45people-event yesterday ;), but without dryad arbors (post-delivery was too slow).
I lost only one Match against RUG with 3 Cages in SB and went 4-1-1 overall, with a draw against a Maverick-Player who managed to play turn2-Ooze in both games...weird...I faced Ooze about 5 times yesterday, but to me it seemed easier to play through Ooze with manaless than with LED-Dredge (which I usually play), because of the threat-density in your graveyard.

Edit: I even managed to perform a Flayer-Kill on camera, seemed to be really my day :)

Match-up's in short:
Round 1 - Maverick: 1-1 (T2-Ooze in both games)
Round 2 - The Rock 2-0 (Ooze G2, luckily no Leylines)
Round 3 - UW-Miracles 2-0 (extracted my NetherShadows G2...seems to be a cool threat ;) )
Round 4 - RUG-Delver 1-2 (T2-Ooze G1, 3 Cages after boarding and the best Brainstorms ever, but this happens )
Round 5 - Bant 2-1 (G3 his T2 Ooze gets contagious, match on camera)
Round 6 - UW-Miracle 2-0 (unless they start to play Cages, this seems to be my most beloved Match-Up, just don't run straight into the Terminus with all your recurring threats)

[Final Fortune]

I totally understand Arbor MD, but why did you cut Probe for Contagion? I'd think being faster and having more accurate Cabal Therapies is a lot better vs the field? Is there something you actually needed 8 removal spells against?

[xikitins]

Congratulations Hollywood,
seems to be the right time to grind a few tournaments with manaless Ichorid.I also T8'ed (5th place) a 50people-event yesterday ;), but without dryad arbors (post-delivery was too slow).
I lost only one Match against RUG with 3 Cages in SB and went 4-1-1 overall, with a draw against a Maverick-Player who managed to play turn2-Ooze in both games...weird...I faced Ooze about 5 times yesterday, but to me it seemed easier to play through Ooze with manaless than with LED-Dredge (which I usually play), because of the threat-density in your graveyard.

Edit: I even managed to perform a Flayer-Kill on camera, seemed to be really my day :)

Match-up's in short:
Round 1 - Maverick: 1-1 (T2-Ooze in both games)
Round 2 - The Rock 2-0 (Ooze G2, luckily no Leylines)
Round 3 - UW-Miracles 2-0 (extracted my NetherShadows G2...seems to be a cool threat ;) )
Round 4 - RUG-Delver 1-2 (T2-Ooze G1, 3 Cages after boarding and the best Brainstorms ever, but this happens )
Round 5 - Bant 2-1 (G3 his T2 Ooze gets contagious, match on camera)
Round 6 - UW-Miracle 2-0 (unless they start to play Cages, this seems to be my most beloved Match-Up, just don't run straight into the Terminus with all your recurring threats)

Could you put your deck list???

I'm looking for new manaless dredge decklist because I think the manaless version is the best one in this new meta full of RUG, Miracles and GW zenith.
But i tested the Youmelia Gay version two weeks ago in a small tournament and did 2-2.

Lost to zombardement. He discarded me each game T1 kozilek, T2 cabal terapy. I never had 8 cards in hand to DDD. Pretty sad. There is no way to win games like those.

Lost to RUG. He played me a tormods with a pretty fast hand in G2, and tormods plus cage in G3.

Beat merfolks and Nic Fit.

The problem with Youmelia gay version (9-0 in GP) was that has no answer to leyline-cage. Leyline don't worry me, but cage does, because RUG and some Miracles with trinket mage are starting to playing it.

What do you think guys about this version??? (non exactly manaless dredge)

Creatures [33]
1 Angel of Despair
2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
3 Ichorid
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith


Instants [5]
1 Darkblast
4 Firestorm

Sorceries [7]
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy

Enchantments [4]
4 Bridge from Below

Lands [11]
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Side:
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Purify the Grave
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Blightsteel Colossus

This decks top8'ed in a 76 people tournament at the beginning of the year.

[DarkJester]

I will post a link to the the tournament-results when the data is online. For fighting cage (i'm not worried about leyline atm) I plan to build a board similar to Hollywood's, but replace the Reverent Silences with either Noxious Revival (I think HokusSchmokus came up with the idea) or even Oxidize.

[Michael Keller]

I totally understand Arbor MD, but why did you cut Probe for Contagion? I'd think being faster and having more accurate Cabal Therapies is a lot better vs the field? Is there something you actually needed 8 removal spells against?

I believe there are several avenues you can take with the deck, one obviously being speed with card draw and the other being a more controlled approach using removal spells. I should probably point out that Contagion was a card that I didn't just intend to use on my opponents' creatures - I would use them on mine to make the necessary amount of tokens at key times thus allowing me to kill them with Dread Return. That actually happened during the course of this event.

Contagion's application is actually a bit more wide than previously expected. Gaining the information off Probe is always nice, and it is certainly a fine card, but I wanted to make sure I had main deck outs to decks which can get off to faster starts (Goblins, Elves) while still being able to shore up some situations with combo-oriented creatures or mana accelerators. I chose to go a more controlled route in both pre and post board, with an additional avenue of attack to stop Knight of the Reliquary and Scavenging Ooze. Being able to draw into these cards is incredibly important, and they're rarely dead.

While I don't want to sound pretentious at all in regards to the skill intensity in regards to a blind Cabal Therapy, if you had seen my on-camera feature matches, you would see I don't miss often with Therapy. In one match I nailed double Force twice. Because I know how to play the card to its maximum value, I would much rather have those slots dedicated to other problematic cards and with a wider application as it pertains to the board and not the opponents' hands. The draw is cool, but I am not so sure it is worth it. Contagion and Sickening Shoal actually do something relevant to change the board state immediately in my favor, and I liked that choice more up front.

Again, Probe is still a fine choice. I just opted to go another route.

[GoldenCid]

Top 8'ed the Jupiter Games Duel for Duals event with Manaless (90 players).

List and report to follow!

Congrats!!! And why so misterious? We want to see your face! :P

Like final fortune i got surprised by the 8 total removal cards!

PS:
1-What happened with Ghoultree?
2- Hated the other decks in top :)

[Michael Keller]

Congrats!!! And why so misterious? We want to see your face! :P

Like final fortune i got surprised by the 8 total removal cards!

PS:
1-What happened with Ghoultree?
2- Hated the other decks in top :)

Thanks, Cid.

Ghoultree is meh. I like it, but I don't think it's worth a slot.

Thing is, Jupiter is always filled with mid-range aggro-control decks that can be just smashed with decks like Manaless. It's not just that no one is prepared for it, it's that no one respects it. LED Dredge is a glass cannon, and while I like it a lot, I kind of prefer the consistency of Manaless. Jupiter has a very predictable meta unfortunately, which is why a consistent deck like Manaless can avoid interaction with all the blue decks everywhere and just win games outright on the back of recursive attackers.

Because I knew there would be a lot of blue decks at this event, I didn't feel as though Leyline would make an appearance. Therefore, I opted to run this and it paid off. It should be noted however that I came with a prepared sideboard for Leyline - which is another reason why I wanted removal main to be able to have important design space geared towards eliminating those other threats without having to pluck here and pick there important pieces of the deck itself. Contagion and Shoal are awesome. Against a deck running heavy enchantment or artifact-based hate, I can just sub out the removal and go from there.

[DarkJester]

http://forum.magickeller.de/viewtopic.php?t=681

As promised, here are the tournament results including my Decklist.

[GoldenCid]

http://forum.magickeller.de/viewtopic.php?t=681

As promised, here are the tournament results including my Decklist. There is a little mistake in my Sideboard, I played 4 Chancellors, not only one.

Congrats very near to my list!! Number of players?

[DarkJester]

As I explained above there were 45 Players showing up at the tournament. :wink:

[Michael Keller]

The report is up (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24620-Report-6th-with-Manaless-Dredge-at-Jupiter-Games-DFD-Event!&p=671349#post671349)!

[GoldenCid]

The report is up (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24620-Report-6th-with-Manaless-Dredge-at-Jupiter-Games-DFD-Event!&p=671349#post671349)!

Thx for the report! And congrats again!

Some question for u...

Running set of removal spells that require the remotion of black cards didnt you feel the lack that black cards such us faerie macabre MD?

How do you deal with faster combo decks without chancellor in side?

[Michael Keller]

Running set of removal spells that require the remotion of black cards didnt you feel the lack that black cards such us faerie macabre MD?

Honestly, I didn't expect a whole lot of Reanimator or any other deck predicated on graveyards there. Jupiter has a tendency to have a large pool of players that play a lot of aggro control, so I really wanted those players to knock out the more problematic match-ups early on and allowing me to get them in rounds three to five. It actually wound up working the opposite here, which was still good because I started off hot.

Faerie Macabre, while incredibly useful, has a different utility than the removal spells. That was strictly a meta call that paid off, although I did get a bit lucky against my Reanimator opponent whiffing multiple times. In that instance, you could substitute a few of the removal spells in the board for the Macabre, but I love the removal spells in the main. I think their application is wider than most give them credit for.


How do you deal with faster combo decks without chancellor in side?

If by faster combo decks you mean Storm, I would then have to race them as fast as I can with Street Wraiths and such. Storm is an awful match-up, but it's not an archetype you run into often - at least not here. If you did, you could try Soul Spike and kill them when they Ad Nauseam. I've actually used that before to success, killing Bryant Cook in a NELC match at Jupiter in the process. Mindbreak Trap is also a nice addition.

Chancellor really doesn't do a whole lot against Storm when they drop a land and Petal/Mox/LED and pay for it. This is just a hard match-up you have to suck up and try to race them as fast as you can.

[Hyv]

Thank you very much for your report Hollywood, an enjoyable read.

As a new player to the dredge archetype, I was hoping you could explain your choice of Griselbrand over Cephalid Sage or Sphinx of Lost Truth as a dread return target. I feel understand the choice of sundering titan, but I would love to hear some thoughts on the more comboish builds that populate this thread that seem to want to win by turning their deck upside down in a single turn.

[Michael Keller]

Thank you very much for your report Hollywood, an enjoyable read.

As a new player to the dredge archetype, I was hoping you could explain your choice of Griselbrand over Cephalid Sage or Sphinx of Lost Truth as a dread return target. I feel understand the choice of sundering titan, but I would love to hear some thoughts on the more comboish builds that populate this thread that seem to want to win by turning their deck upside down in a single turn.

Griselbrand is a black creature which has the ability to feed itself to Ichorid. It allows you to turn your deck upside down and win immediately with either Flayer or FKZ. Aside from that, it can draw you cards if you so choose, and it gains you life in instances where lethal damage presents itself. This occurred in game one of my round five match on camera. I was able to stave off a dual 'Goyf assault for a turn by bringing back Griselbrand and forcing my opponent to pass on attacking. This enabled me to bring back creatures next turn and smash in for a lot of damage.

Manaless Dredge is a combo deck at its very core, hence the Shadows and Dread Returns. Sphinx and Sage are all right, but for what you're getting out of Griselbrand, it really is the best option. I should have also mentioned the reason I ran five targets was to give myself more power against a quick Show and Tell - hence the choice of Griselbrand over the other two choices.

[blindspotxxx]

@Hollywood

I don't feel very confident in 15 Dredgers only. Does it seem consistent? It's just like playing 15 Lands in a deck and we can't afford to really mulligan right?

[Michael Keller]

@Hollywood

I don't feel very confident in 15 Dredgers only. Does it seem consistent? It's just like playing 15 Lands in a deck and we can't afford to really mulligan right?

You really can't afford to mulligan with this deck. However, the chances you'll open with at least one dredger are something like 88.25% in your opening seven if we're talking fifteen (15) dredgers, which is very likely. That number increases to 91.58% on the first draw. That's really what you have to accept when you play with Manaless. You could run sixteen (16), which brings the open hand calculation to 90.08%, but it's rather negligible when you could spend that slot running cards to facilitate faster kills, such as a fourth Phantasmagorian, fourth Dread Return, etc. It really doesn't affect the consistency to the point where it is entirely noticeable outright.

Fifteen is the minimum, however. Sixteen is more common, although once you max out on Trolls, Imps, Thugs, and Shells, well, there really isn't too much beyond that that will help you as far as interaction goes in your deck. (Such as running Life from the Loam, for instance; it has nothing to do with anything else in the deck besides dredging. The other slots can be exiled to Ichorid, which is actually key.)

It is very consistent. In fact, Manaless Dredge is more consistent than its counterpart with LED, although obviously slower. However, the speed that is lost is gained in the consistency the deck provides, and turn two wins are still very possible in conjunction with Street Wraith and multiple Bridges.

[Michael Keller]

Additionally, here is my current sideboard for reference:

[4x] Reverent Silence
[4x] Nature's Claim
[3x] Sickening Shoal
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest
[1x] Contagion

Here is the strategy I would (probably) use against the format's most prevalent match-ups:

U/w/x Stone-Blade
Thoughts: There are a lot of poisonous cards that Stone-Blade has main for us anyhow, so all we need to worry about are cards like Jitte, Extraction and Cage. We'll still keep in a few Contagions, but we want some answers to artifact hate. Additionally, some opponents will board out Wastelands (it has happened and I have seen it), so that works in your favor. But this is a match where you don't want to put your nuts on the table game two until you've seen what they have.

-4 Phantasmagorian
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-1 Sickening Shoal
-1 Contagion

+4 Nature's Claim
+2 Verdant Catacombs
+1 Forest

RUG Delver
Thoughts: This is about as easy a match-up as it gets, as indicated by my 3-0 (6-1) record against it at Jupiter. Just stick with the game plan and grind it out. Ooze is there, but they have no acceleration. You can race a Crypt, but if they have Cage (which is generally at a one or two-of), you'll have to tweak your deck accordingly. Bring in a few Claims and some fetches (if they are off Stifle), and make sure you bring in that critical basic Forest in the event you execute that boarding strategy.

-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Flame-kin Zealot

+2 Sickening Shoal
+1 Contagion

Reanimator
Thoughts: Race them as fast as you can. If they have Crypt or Extraction - which they should - you can race that with a decent hand. You can bring Claims if you want, but I wouldn't. If Reanimator is prevalent in your area, then always, always, ALWAYS use Faerie Macabre. Thankfully my area has little to any, so I board in nothing and hope for the best.

+/- Nothing

R/x Goblins
Thoughts: If they run Leyline, you can play accordingly. Typically Goblins doesn't - and shouldn't - run Leyline, but sometimes you'll run into it. If you do, then hit your opponent with a tack hammer over his or her skull. Or just board the right way.

-1 Sundering Titan

+1 Contagion

Merfolk
Thoughts: You want removal over anti-hate, because Merfolk will generally keep a threat-dense hand over a hand with hate any day. You can beat a Relic or a Crypt if you have to - you won't be able to beat a bunch of Merfolk if you dilute your deck into a bunch of artifact or enchantment hate.

-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Sundering Titan
-1 Flame-kin Zealot

+3 Sickening Shoal
+1 Contagion

Sneak/Omni-Show
Thoughts: Wasteland is a non-factor in this match, hence the lack of the basic Forest post-board. Show and Tell puts your Griselbrands and Trolls into play, which is a lot of fun. But you need to be prepared for Leyline and Cage, here. The Burning Wish versions have their merits, but it's really all the same.

-3 Contagion
-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Sickening Shoal
-1 Dread Return
-1 Flame-kin Zealot

+3 Reverent Silence
+3 Nature's Claim
+2 Verdant Catacombs

Elves
Thoughts: Contagion is the nut-high here. Use it and abuse it, and race them to the end. Shoal is good, but not worth hitting a 1/1 or 2/2 that Contagion can do by itself and hit two creatures.

-1 Sundering Titan

+1 Contagion

Maverick
Thoughts: Contagion and Shoal are there to help in game one if they start off with a slow hand. You can beat a turn two Knight because some lists do not run Bog main. You can also beat a turn two Ooze with a solid hand. However, if an opponent starts off with some crazy shit like Thalia into Ooze, well, that's just a problem in general. But Knight game one is generally fine.

Some lists also run Enlightened Tutor, so you should prepare accordingly with either Claim or Silence. Assuming they're not on it, here's what I would do:

-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Sundering Titan
-1 Flame-kin Zealot

+3 Sickening Shoal
+1 Contagion

Storm/High Tide Combo
Thoughts: Win as fast as possible. No, seriously. If you want, you could try and run Soul Spike or Unmask if they are prevalent in your area.

+/- Nothing.

The Rock/BUG
Thoughts: This can be an awkward match because of the discard, creatures and Deeds. However, Sundering Titan is beast here. Game two is similar, and Leyline is a possibility. Wasteland also exists here. This is what I would do:

-4 Phantasmagorian
-2 Contagion
-1 Sickening Shoal
-1 Flame-kin Zealot

+3 Reverent Silence
+2 Nature's Claim
+2 Verdant Catacombs
+1 Forest

Metalworker/MUD
Thoughts: You really don't care a whole lot about cards like Lodestone Golem, but they can be a bitch. Thankfully, our threat-dense deck has creatures that cost nothing to put into play, and our turns can actually be more explosive than their best ones as Griselbrand turns your deck upside down.

-4 Phantasmagorian
-3 Contagion
-1 Flame-kin Zealot
-1 Sundering Titan
-1 Dread Return

+4 Nature's Claim
+3 Sickening Shoal
+2 Verdant Catacombs
+1 Forest

Hopefully this helps some. I'm sure there are other people who feel they would board differently, but this is what I would probably do if I needed to board against the aforementioned decks. Most of the other decks like Nic Fit are similar to decks like the Rock, so you can plug and play and see what works best for you.

[claudio.r]

Hollywood, this might already been discussed, but what are your thoughts on Gigapede?

[scribejones]

Return to Ravnica spoiler:

Bell-Chime Sphinx 4UU
Creature - Sphinx
Rare
Flying
Discard two nonland cards with the same name: Draw four cards.
5/6Could this guy be any good in manaless? Obviously he's worse than Griselbrand, but he seems slightly better than FKZ. With so many 3- and 4-of dredgers, it's easy to meet the discard condition, and he also lets you turn Bridges/Narcos/DRs that are stuck in hand into a big deck flip. He seems worth testing, at least.

...and yes, I just realized that my first Source post (after months of lurking) is suggesting a big, splashy spoiled rare for an established archetype. Feel free to laugh at me. :frown:

[Michael Keller]

Hollywood, this might already been discussed, but what are your thoughts on Gigapede?

It doesn't really do anything except smooth out dredges, but you really shouldn't have any issues with that already. It's a cute card, but honestly it doesn't really do much of anything. You have Phantasmagorian and that should be good enough.

[Felidae]

Return to Ravnica spoiler:
Bell-Chime Sphinx 4UU
Creature - Sphinx
Rare
Flying
Discard two nonland cards with the same name: Draw four cards.
5/6
Could this guy be any good in manaless? Obviously he's worse than Griselbrand, but he seems slightly better than FKZ. With so many 3- and 4-of dredgers, it's easy to meet the discard condition, and he also lets you turn Bridges/Narcos/DRs that are stuck in hand into a big deck flip. He seems worth testing, at least.

...and yes, I just realized that my first Source post (after months of lurking) is suggesting a big, splashy spoiled rare for an established archetype. Feel free to laugh at me.


As you allready said:
If we're going for carddraw then we got Grinselbro or Sphinx. Both cards only require us to have dredgers in our yard ( well and more than 7 life, in case of Grinselbro), without any extra conditions ( such as having 2 cards with the same name in our hand).
Comparing this guy to FKZ is also wrong, as FKZ provides the instant win via hasty zombies, while this guy only provides carddraw ( which we allready got in our deck).

Also:
Welcome to The Source, the forum where we don't laugh about a first post with a constructive idea.


@Hollywood:

Considering your sideboard plans vs Stoneblade:

Between Snapcaster, Surgical, Jitte, Stoneforge, removal, Batterskull and Lingering Souls I'd see myself boarding out FKZ over Flayer, as Flayer doesn't require a hole lot for his oneshot and is, in addition to this, also good on his own to get some extra points of damage out of our guys.
FKZ seems weaker, considering that we aren't likely to get in a situation with enough zombies for his oneshot kill.

[Michael Keller]

As you allready said:
If we're going for carddraw then we got Grinselbro or Sphinx. Both cards only require us to have dredgers in our yard ( well and more than 7 life, in case of Grinselbro), without any extra conditions ( such as having 2 cards with the same name in our hand).
Comparing this guy to FKZ is also wrong, as FKZ provides the instat win via hasty zombies, while this guy only provides carddraw ( which we allready got in our deck).

Also:
Welcome to The Source, the forum where we don't laugh about a first post with a constructive idea.


@Hollywood:

Considering your sideboard plans vs Stoneblade:

Between Snapcaster, Surgical, Jitte, Stoneforge, removal, Batterskull and Lingering Souls I'd see myself boarding out FKZ over Flayer, as Flayer doesn't require a hole lot for his oneshot and is, in addition to this, also good on his own to get some extra points of damage out of our guys.
FKZ seems weaker, considering that we aren't likely to get in a situation with enough zombies for his oneshot kill.

That makes sense. I would probably do that, too. There are just so many configurations you can try. Honestly, it's not worth boarding in against Crypt or Surgical. You can race those cards and shouldn't have too much a problem doing so.

[kwis]

@ Hollywood

Hi,

I've always loved the dredge concept and I finally got around to playing this deck a little bit. I'm curious about how you normally play around a T1 leyline and how the rest of the game feels. Since you're dedicating 11 slots to fighting Leyline/Other hate I'm curious about how effective it is.

[Michael Keller]

Good question.

The chances of an opponent opening up on seven cards with Leyline of the Void in a sixty card deck are 39.95%. This number obviously decreases as an opponent mulligans farther down to six, five, etc.

We're running multiple answers to Leyline as a card. Assuming you are able to open with at least one of your eight anti-Leyline cards in your opening seven (65.36%), you have a good chance of either drawing or opening with a land - and the reciprocal. Leyline of the Void is at a relative low right now, so that obviously alleviates some pressure. However, in order to fight it, you have to have the right cards in your hand to rid the board of it.

Otherwise, you accept the auto-loss to it. I personally won't do that, which is why I have no problem bringing in cards to fight it. It's true a turn one Leyline can cause fits for this archetype. But, assuming an opponent cannot find it after mulling for it, you really kind of just win from there doing business as usual.

[kwis]

Wouldn't it set you back 3-4 turns in DDD while diluting you? That is the part that worries me against anything with pressure.

[Michael Keller]

Wouldn't it set you back 3-4 turns in DDD while diluting you? That is the part that worries me against anything with pressure.

That's a fundamental problem with any variation of Dredge that you have to embrace. If an opponent sticks a hate card with a threat, well then you're going to have to deal with it. This is why I run Contagion and Shoal - to deal with creatures even in post-board settings to buy you time in the event you need it.

You're not really diluting much at all.

[Michael Keller]

Top 8'ed the Mythic Games Legacy Invitational Qualifier in Elmira, NY with Manaless. Picked up a set of Show and Tells and Sneak Attacks to show for it.

Report later.

[GoldenCid]

Top 8'ed the Mythic Games Legacy Invitational Qualifier in Elmira, NY with Manaless. Picked up a set of Show and Tells and Sneak Attacks to show for it.

Report later.

Congrats again!! Some questions for u before your report:

On manaless playstyle: If you win the roll, do you choose to start? This question results key for me in order to understand the removal spells uses. Do you discard you 8th card and go all in? or just draw for a couple of turn to get removal?

I considering this deck as "unexpected" in an invitational tournament where the probable meta includes: reanimator, Show variants and Maverick as prevalent decks. What changes would you do in your MD considering this point? More over most of player here dedicates ALWAYS some slots of grave hate.

I got sourprised that you side out Phantasmagorian, for me is the best card in the deck. Which is the reasoning behind that?

Thx, in advance.

GC.

[Michael Keller]

Congrats again!! Some questions for u before your report:

On manaless playstyle: If you win the roll, do you choose to start? This question results key for me in order to understand the removal spells uses. Do you discard you 8th card and go all in? or just draw for a couple of turn to get removal?

I considering this deck as "unexpected" in an invitational tournament where the probable meta includes: reanimator, Show variants and Maverick as prevalent decks. What changes would you do in your MD considering this point? More over most of player here dedicates ALWAYS some slots of grave hate.

I got sourprised that you side out Phantasmagorian, for me is the best card in the deck. Which is the reasoning behind that?

Thx, in advance.

GC.

When winning a die roll, you ALWAYS elect to draw first. Your strategy is to dump dredgers, so you want the 8th card.

As for changes, I removed the FKZ and subbed in a third Griselbrand. Definitely the right play. It was ace against SneakShow when I had a Griselbrand in hand, and it was responsible for almost all of my wins.

It's too good not to run three. However, most people would want to cut the Titan before the Zealot, but I don't like that. Sundering Titan is a wrecking ball against decks ill-equipped to deal with it and while I might eventually ship him to the board, I think he's still boss against greedy mana bases. I like him.

Phantasmagorian also forces you to dump your hand against hate, so you have to be careful there. This is why I don't normally sub out all of them while boarding, but maybe two. So far there have been no issues with that.

The sideboard still seems good and I've had no issues with it.

[rektareloaded]

ended at 1st place using manaless dredge in a local tourney here in our country (40+ players) 09/15/2012. got a set of force of will of my own (finally)

6 rounds swiss and here's my match ups:
round 1 vs enchantress (2-0) - putting 2 flayer in MB is not a bad idea in matches like this. if not for flayer, the game will end once he played multiple elephant grass etc.

round 2 vs omniscience (0-2) - its a very badmatch up for manaless dredge (aside from ANT) if you ask me. :( . so no need to explain hahaha

round 3 vs merfolk (2-0) -:laugh:

round 4 vs UR delver (2-0) - round 1 got a 2 GP in hand and saw that he got no fow or daze, i DR flayer and win. round 2 he got a good hand (2 surgical , 1 snapcaster, ). i discarded a GGtroll at the end of my turn, he then played his 1st surgical, i respnded by using SW, he respnded by using his 2nd surgical, i responded too by using my 2nd SW and the rest is history :cool:

round 5 vs rug delver (2-1). he locked me up using scavenging ooze on game 2, he manage to draw lands that can produce green mana :cry: . on game 3 he manage to play an early ooze but he only got 1 land that can produce green mana :tongue: . was able to build 12 zombies but he got rough and tumble :cry: . but i manage to win since most of our recurring dudes are alrdy in my graveyard.

round 6 vs rug delver (2-0) quick win in round 1. during round 2 he alrdy shakd my hand after playing DR targeting sphinx of steelwind. :eek:

ended at 2nd place after swiss.

top 8 matches:

1st match vs mud stax (2-1) - round 1 he managed to play a turn 2 wurmcoil engine followd by lodestone golem on his next turn. i managed to survive by endless blocking courtesy of nether shadow, was able to produce a lot of zombies, and over runned him w/ ichorid and bloodghast. round 2 he was able to play 3rd turn blightsteel colossus w/ lightning greaves :cry: . round 3 killed him w/ flayer.

top 4 matches:

VS rug delver (2-0) :cool:

finals:

VS goblins - we agreed that we dont have to play. :tongue:


heres my own version of manaless dredge

Manaless Dredge
by Kathlean Capote

Lands: 4
4 Dakmor Salvage - i maxd out the number for graftdiggers cage purposes.

Creatures: 40
4 Golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
2 shambling shell
4 ichorid
4 bloodghast
4 nethershadow
4 narcomoeba
2 flayer of the hatebound
4 street wraith
4 phantasmagorian

others: 16
4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
4 dread return
4 gitaxian probe

Sideboard: 15
1 Elesh norn, grand cenobite
1 sphinx of steelwind
1 kederekt leviathan
1 terastodon
1 angel of despair
1 jin gitaxias, core augur
3 chancellor of the annex
4 faerie macabre
2 soulspike - for ANT purposes (the plan is putting 4 copies of it bt i only got 2 :cry: )

[GoldenCid]

It's incredible how this deck works in it different versions....

[blindspotxxx]

ended at 1st place using manaless dredge in a local tourney here in our country (40+ players) 09/15/2012. got a set of force of will of my own (finally)

6 rounds swiss and here's my match ups:
round 1 vs enchantress (2-0) - putting 2 flayer in MB is not a bad idea in matches like this. if not for flayer, the game will end once he played multiple elephant grass etc.

round 2 vs omniscience (0-2) - its a very badmatch up for manaless dredge (aside from ANT) if you ask me. :( . so no need to explain hahaha

round 3 vs merfolk (2-0) -:laugh:

round 4 vs UR delver (2-0) - round 1 got a 2 GP in hand and saw that he got no fow or daze, i DR flayer and win. round 2 he got a good hand (2 surgical , 1 snapcaster, ). i discarded a GGtroll at the end of my turn, he then played his 1st surgical, i respnded by using SW, he respnded by using his 2nd surgical, i responded too by using my 2nd SW and the rest is history :cool:

round 5 vs rug delver (2-1). he locked me up using scavenging ooze on game 2, he manage to draw lands that can produce green mana :cry: . on game 3 he manage to play an early ooze but he only got 1 land that can produce green mana :tongue: . was able to build 12 zombies but he got rough and tumble :cry: . but i manage to win since most of our recurring dudes are alrdy in my graveyard.

round 6 vs rug delver (2-0) quick win in round 1. during round 2 he alrdy shakd my hand after playing DR targeting sphinx of steelwind. :eek:

ended at 2nd place after swiss.

top 8 matches:

1st match vs mud stax (2-1) - round 1 he managed to play a turn 2 wurmcoil engine followd by lodestone golem on his next turn. i managed to survive by endless blocking courtesy of nether shadow, was able to produce a lot of zombies, and over runned him w/ ichorid and bloodghast. round 2 he was able to play 3rd turn blightsteel colossus w/ lightning greaves :cry: . round 3 killed him w/ flayer.

top 4 matches:

VS rug delver (2-0) :cool:

finals:

VS goblins - we agreed that we dont have to play. :tongue:


heres my own version of manaless dredge

Manaless Dredge
by Kathlean Capote

Lands: 4
4 Dakmor Salvage - i maxd out the number for graftdiggers cage purposes.

Creatures: 40
4 Golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
2 shambling shell
4 ichorid
4 bloodghast
4 nethershadow
4 narcomoeba
2 flayer of the hatebound
4 street wraith
4 phantasmagorian

others: 16
4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
4 dread return
4 gitaxian probe

Sideboard: 15
1 Elesh norn, grand cenobite
1 sphinx of steelwind
1 kederekt leviathan
1 terastodon
1 angel of despair
1 jin gitaxias, core augur
3 chancellor of the annex
4 faerie macabre
2 soulspike - for ANT purposes (the plan is putting 4 copies of it bt i only got 2 :cry: )

Great report dude, I was your round 4 opponent. That game 2 was double god draw for both us :p Congrats on your force of will.

[sperry023]

round 4 vs UR delver (2-0) - round 1 got a 2 GP in hand and saw that he got no fow or daze, i DR flayer and win. round 2 he got a good hand (2 surgical , 1 snapcaster, ). i discarded a GGtroll at the end of my turn, he then played his 1st surgical, i respnded by using SW, he respnded by using his 2nd surgical, i responded too by using my 2nd SW and the rest is history :cool:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, cycling doesn't using the stack and neither does the replacement effect if Dredge. He wouldn't be able to respond with the second Surgical Extraction here (though he could just Extract whatever hits your GY).

[Michael Keller]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, cycling doesn't using the stack and neither does the replacement effect if Dredge. He wouldn't be able to respond with the second Surgical Extraction here (though he could just Extract whatever hits your GY).

Cycling a card is an activated ability and uses the stack. In Street Wraith's case, paying two life is the cost. His opponent responded with Street Wraith's activated ability by casting Surgical Extraction. And so on and so forth.

Players cannot respond to a Replacement Effect once a card is in the process of being dredged, or for that matter, at all.

[GoldenCid]

Ok guys i shaped my decklist and wanted to share it to you. First of all thx Hollywood for you explanantions. I hope you could aport to my list below.
I ended (partially) considering some points:

-I expect gravehate in artifact form.
-I expect tricky MD permanents (bridge, e.grass, so on)
-I expect S&T vairants and maverick and maybe reanimator
-I suppose that this deck is unexpected

// Lands
4 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [PLC] Phantasmagorian
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Shambling Shell
4 [R] Nether Shadow
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
1 [ZEN] Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [DKA] Flayer of the Hatebound
1 [GP] Angel of Despair

// Spells
4 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [BOK] Sickening Shoal
SB: 1 [AL] Contagion
SB: 1 [ZEN] Forest (2a)
SB: 2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

I had a dichotomy between running G probe or removal spells MD. I decided for probe because i feel very much confortable with it and because i think it increases my chances of winning G1.
I have no griselbrand..so i think sphinx is a decent replacement...maybe FKZ could be replaced with a second one.
Angel is the guy who deals with unexpected permanents, yes it's black but could Woodfall primus replace it? It fits great with Flayer and as angel does not resolve the problem with ooze.

[kwis]

I'm also fairly interested in the value of 4 MD probe for game 1 as opposed to some of the removal that Hollywood maindecks. I have the cards to copy his manaless build as well as a few other variants I have seen.

Interested in how I might go about customizing this if I chose to tune it. I absolutely love the deck so far though, and a resolved Dread Return on Griselbrand simply wins. :)

[Michael Keller]

Report is up from this weekend! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24650-Report-Top-8-with-Manaless-Dredge-Mythic-Games-LIQ!&p=673173#post673173)

[rektareloaded]

Report is up from this weekend! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24650-Report-Top-8-with-Manaless-Dredge-Mythic-Games-LIQ!&p=673173#post673173)


congratulations and nice report hollywood. i might try putting dryad arbor and reverent silence in my SB next time, specially when facing black decks. :laugh:

[NecroYawgmoth]

Congratulations to your playings, Hollywood.

What do you think of this new Bell-Chime Sphinx in RTR? It allows you to Dredge infinite. =P Do you think it is better than Griselbrand in a meta with nearly no S&T?

[kwis]

Congratulations to your playings, Hollywood.

What do you think of this new Bell-Chime Sphinx in RTR? It allows you to Dredge infinite. =P Do you think it is better than Griselbrand in a meta with nearly no S&T?

I think Grisel is probably still better because he doesn't require resources in hand to get started.

However resources in hand vs. life total might be worth some analysis.

[JanoschEausH]

Hey guys, i'm really trying to get into this deck, because i'm not familiar with it's playstyle and want to know how it works to be prepared for it. It's also alot of fun to play and i'm considering to maybe jump on the dredge-train in the future.

I have a few questions regarding Hollywoods manaless list.

How do you handle mulligans? In which cases do you mulligan? Are hands without dredgers impossible to hold?

I had a few cenarios in my testing which i found backbreaking, but i'm really sure i had the wrong approach.

For example i had a game where my opponent dropped T1 Tormod's Crypt. I didnt board in the Nature's Claims, so i had to make him blow it up at the wrong moment.
That was kinda hard, because he had a clock (which i suffered alot of dmg from) which i could have killed with a contagion in my hand. The result would have been me with an empty yard and ~4-5 cards in hand. So i timewalked myself and died shortly after. How do you handle such situations? Do you board in the claim plan against opponents who board Tormod's Crypt?

Another cenario was against Maverick. He had T1 Noble Hierarch and T2 Ooze with Mana open. I coud have killed the Ooze but then my grave would be empty and me again with 5 cards in hand. Is it possible to play around such situations?

I'm sorry for this wall of text and those elementary questions, but i hope you can help me :)

[rektareloaded]

Hey guys, i'm really trying to get into this deck, because i'm not familiar with it's playstyle and want to know how it works to be prepared for it. It's also alot of fun to play and i'm considering to maybe jump on the dredge-train in the future.

I have a few questions regarding Hollywoods manaless list.

How do you handle mulligans? In which cases do you mulligan? Are hands without dredgers impossible to hold?

I had a few cenarios in my testing which i found backbreaking, but i'm really sure i had the wrong approach.

For example i had a game where my opponent dropped T1 Tormod's Crypt. I didnt board in the Nature's Claims, so i had to make him blow it up at the wrong moment.
That was kinda hard, because he had a clock (which i suffered alot of dmg from) which i could have killed with a contagion in my hand. The result would have been me with an empty yard and ~4-5 cards in hand. So i timewalked myself and died shortly after. How do you handle such situations? Do you board in the claim plan against opponents who board Tormod's Crypt?

Another cenario was against Maverick. He had T1 Noble Hierarch and T2 Ooze with Mana open. I coud have killed the Ooze but then my grave would be empty and me again with 5 cards in hand. Is it possible to play around such situations?

I'm sorry for this wall of text and those elementary questions, but i hope you can help me :)


if i were in that situation ill do the same thing, blow his tormods as early as i can (ex. if i have 2-3 bloodghast in GY in turn 2-3 ill just play dakmor salvage from hand)
that will force him to blow his own tormods.

for a turn 2 ooze w/ an open green mana scenario, pray that you'll be getting atleast 1 street wraith on your opening hand or its over. street wraith is the key. contaigion might not be the answer, even if you manage to kill the ooze, you will end up having 5 cards in hand (3 timewalks for opponent).

to make it simple, street wraith is our best friend in this deck :laugh:

[Michael Keller]

@Necro: Griselbrand is simply better because it's Yawgmoth's Bargain on a stick. No contest here, really. It's also good against Show and Tell when you have one in hand. Bell Chime is decent, but not nearly as good.

In regards to mulligans: you never really want to take one with this deck. In the rarest of circumstances I suppose you could, but you really don't want to unless you absolutely have to. Otherwise (99% of the time), you keep. You also shouldn't really board in anti-hate against Crypt or Surgical, because you can simply just win against those cards.

A well-timed Crypt is good, but it doesn't mean you flat out lose. Scavenging Ooze takes a few turns to get online, and by the time it does, you really should have either combo-ed out or have a Contagion or Shoal in hand to kill it. Either way, I've never had an issue with it.

If your opponent has a turn two Ooze with mana open to activate it, that's a pretty uncommon start by Maverick. However, it does happen once in a while. In that instance, you could either kill their accelerator during their upkeep after you've discarded (which is usually the right play), or you could just kill it with the activated ability on the stack with a Shoal or Contagion. Generally speaking, killing the accelerator is the right play because it stops a turn two Knight and it stops a turn two Ooze with activation - and it could potentially be a crippling blow anyhow to their mana progression if they kept a one-lander.

And, of course, Street Wraith is lights out against a turn two Ooze activation. This is why I play Contagion and Shoal main: to shore up that scenario with some solid removal that has a wider application.

[nakazkirai]

Before Avacyn Restored i used to play a different version of the deck in MOL.


2 Chancellor of the Forge
2 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Chancellor of the Dross
4 Street Wraith
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
1 Karmic Guide
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Call to the Netherworld

SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 4 Land Grant
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Dryad Arbor
SB: 4 Reverent Silence


Before grafdigger's cage it played very well and fast but I have sold the deck to test a new one. But I will show some tech that I used.

Instead a Big Creature per turn I tryed to combo and get a 1 turn kill. At that time Burn was playing too much so I used maindeck 4 Chancellor of the Dross because the extra life can save you until you get the combo and they are food to Ichorid. The Chancellor of the Annex is a good card because the extra turn you get is very important and it can save you against some combo decks if you revive it. Chancellor of the Forge is not only a 1st turn token generator but its the finisher of the deck.
Sphinx of Lost Truths are for the mill part because sometimes you don't have the life to pay but it stills a good card. The Call to the Netherworld speeds the mill because you can get your discarded Street Wraith and you can cast it for free during your end phase or by Phantasmagorian effect.
The combo starts with Karmic Guide and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. Dredge Return the Karmic Guide and revive together Mikaeus. With Mikaeus on the field every Cabal Therapy in your graveyard will be turned into a "extra" dredge return because you can sacrifice your karmic guide to remove a card from opponent's hand and revive itself and another monster. If you need to mill your deck you can bring back the Sphinx and sacrifice the Sphinx to mill more cards. The Kill condition will be to return Chancellor of the Forge with Mikaeus on the field. You will get the zombie tokens via bridge from bellow and will get goblin tokens with haste for each creature on your side of the field. You can sacrifice the Chancellor of the Forge to double the number of goblin tokens. And Mikael will boost your non Human monsters with +1/+1. So your Nether Shadows,Ichorids and goblin tokens will be huge. With that you can end with more than 200 damage if you maximize dredge return and cabal therapy. The Blightsteel Colossus is to dont mill all the deck.

The deck can win even if Karmic or Mikaeus are removed. But the deck have few problems with the grafdigger's cage so i think You can mix some ideas from Hollywood and substitute some cards to get more artifact removal. And remove some Chancellor of the Dross if you don't have too much burn decks. And substitute one Sphinx for one Griselbrand and Flayer of the Hatebound against control.

I liked the Contagion idea so mix some would be cool.

Thats it. =)

[crusherdodge]

@ Hollywood

Congrats on your tournament finishes. (I just dusted off my dredge deck.)

I watched both of your matches...as you dredged it looked like you were changing the order of your cards as you placed them in the graveyard.

I always thought that you had to put the cards into the graveyard as they came off your library.

Can you stack the dredged cards in any order you wish as they go to the graveyard?

Thanks,

Crusher Dodge

[NecroYawgmoth]

Dredge is a replacement effect of drawing.

It counts as one action [1 replacement of the draw] and all the cards are put in the graveyard at the same, so you can choose the order.

It's basically the same way, as when I "Wrath of God" the field. All creatures die at the same time, so you can choose the order how they are put in the graveyard.

However, you can only choose the order for the cards from one! dredge. Like... if I play a Careful Study and Dredge 6 cards two times, [2 Golgari Grave Trolls] I have two piles of 6 cards to arrange [the first 6 cards dredged from the first Troll, and then the second 6 cards from the other Troll] as I like, but NOT 1 pile of 12 cards.

Hope that wasn't too confusing. =P

[Final Fortune]

Griselbrand is also a pre-emptive answer to other pseudo combo decks like Burn, honestly I don't know why you'd ever play anything else than Griselbrand and Flayer of the Hatebound as your Dread Return targets.

Cool to see you still doing well with this deck Hollywood, I don't really know what advantages it has over LED or LEDless Dredge, but it's still one of my favorite decks.

Regarding the "manabase" are you sure 4 Dryad Arbor is any better than 1 Dryad Arbor and 3 Fetchlands? I'd think it'd be better to have 1 Drayd Arbor, 5 Fetchlands and 1 Forest for Nature's Claim so you could have 6 lands that could instantly cast it, where skipping a turn for Dryad Arbor's summoning sickness is risky business vs anything that'd actually play Leyline of the Void or Grafdigger's Cage.

I'm still not really sure I like Dryad Arbor and Contagion MD over Chancellor of the Annex and Gitaxian Probe, because in a lot of ways Dazing your opponent and accelerating your Dredging accomplishes the same goals as you're trying to accomplish but they're just better than Dryad Arbor or Contagion because they don't rely on Dread Return or Cabal Therapy to be in the graveyard to disrupt your opponent or accelerate your Dread Return and drawing cards is conditionally better than casting Contagion on yourself pretty much always if they don't have anything worth Contagioning.

I'm cool with Dryad Arbor MD if you get more SB space out of the deal, but Contagion over Gitaxian Probe just doesn't feel right to me.

[nakazkirai]

I think Hollywood plays more arbors than fetch lands because if you dont get neither during your first hand they wont be a dead card in the graveyard. If you mill the Arbors, they will count as creatures so It will support Neither Shadow more than fetch lands. I think contagion over gitaxian because if the Ooze enters fast its 90% gg the same to Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben but dryad arbor may help to cast contagion.

[rektareloaded]

I think Hollywood plays more arbors than fetch lands because if you dont get neither during your first hand they wont be a dead card in the graveyard. If you mill the Arbors, they will count as creatures so It will support Neither Shadow more than fetch lands. I think contagion over gitaxian because if the Ooze enters fast its 90% gg the same to Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben but dryad arbor may help to cast contagion.

IMO thalia isnt a threat to manaless dredge at all. you just cant cast cabals and DR but w/ thalia you can just build your zombie army w/ ichorid. the good part about is that your bridges wont blow up since she's a first strike babe. :tongue:

[Michael Keller]

I like running the four Arbors pretty much for the aforementioned reasons: that they aren't dead-stacked cards with Nether Shadow and that they fuel immediate Dread Returns in the event you can only make two creatures (which is actually quite often as I'm sure most of you know). Dryad Arbor, in all honesty, has been the best card in this deck recently. It just does so much.

Contagion has been ace in many circumstances, and I'm still getting a feel for its utility. So far I'm absolutely loving it. Gitaxian Probe, while good, doesn't really do anything more except dredge a card, and while information is important, I really don't have a problem hitting with Therapies. I mean, there are different ways you can go with the deck, so it really kind of depends on your tastes. But this version has been giving fits to a lot of decks unprepared to deal with it, which is why it has been doing well.

Chancellor is good, but again I'm just trying something different to see if it is worth the effort. I am really into Contagion and Shoal right now. So far, they've been great, and it's one of those choices where I would weigh its effectiveness against other possible candidates - which I have. At this point the deck is firing on all cylinders, but we'll see how that goes. I might switch back to the Chancellors as a free "Daze" has its merits.

[Final Fortune]

If you're that enamored with Dryad Arbor have you tried Chancellor of the Forge? I know SB space is kind of a thing, but 8 removal and 7 forests should be fine if you can get away with not playing the black removal spells.

[Michael Keller]

I suppose you could. The reason I like Dryad Arbor is that it can be naturally drawn as the eighth card instead of having to be in your opening seven to be as effective as Chancellor would be. Dryad Arbor kind of just fits the bill in so many different ways, it's really hard to pass up. I've just really liked it since I've started playing it.

However, I'm open to trying something new and that sounds like it has its merits. I'm not so sure yet. Tonight at the local I'm going to try Annex and see how he turns out.

[ykpon]

Hi.

I've been playing dredge for years already but am new to a manaless version. A couple of random questions I got after some days of testing with Hollywood's list:

1. Is Forest better than Bayou here?
2. I don't get adding anything to a Griselbrand-Flayer package unless there are some Glacial Chasms or something like that in your meta so you also add Woodfall Primus to have a chance. Sundering Titan is cute but is it really necessary?

Thank you for your help :)

[Michael Keller]

u
Hi.

I've been playing dredge for years already but am new to a manaless version. A couple of random questions I got after some days of testing with Hollywood's list:

1. Is Forest better than Bayou here?
2. I don't get adding anything to a Griselbrand-Flayer package unless there are some Glacial Chasms or something like that in your meta so you also add Woodfall Primus to have a chance. Sundering Titan is cute but is it really necessary?

Thank you for your help :)

1. Yes. You purposely run a basic Forest in the event an opponent has Wasteland ready. You need to be able to circumvent that otherwise you're asking for a blowout.

2. Flayer does a bit more than that. It gets around Propaganda, Elephant Grass, Moat, Ensnaring Bride, etc.
Flayer wins without having to necessitate an attack, and that is important.

Sundering Titan at the moment is the most questionable slot, but he has his merits. That will likely change into some sort of removal to help against hate. It's a pretty wide open slot.

[TraxDaMax]

I used to be on the 4 dryad arbor, 1 forest, 4 fetch route in sideboard, but after goldfishing, dryad arbors are just too good not to plsy I think. They can easily act as creature 2 and/or 3 for targeting dread return. And they help dodge daze, thalia and spell pierce sometimes.

[NecroYawgmoth]

What's the best replacement for Sundering Titan in the main? - I just don't like him.

More Shoal / Contagion? Or another DR-Target which kills problematic Permanents like Terastodeon? [stuff like Solitary Confinement for example...]

[L10]

What's the best replacement for Sundering Titan in the main? - I just don't like him.
I am playing with Hollywood's latest list but replaced the Sundering Titan with the 4th Shambling Shell. I felt uncomfortable with only 15 dredgers, even if the 16th dredger is statistically irrelevant. The deck was brilliantly designed.

[Mindlash]

What's the best replacement for Sundering Titan in the main? - I just don't like him.

More Shoal / Contagion? Or another DR-Target which kills problematic Permanents like Terastodeon? [stuff like Solitary Confinement for example...]


Depends what you look for. With a free slot I would add the forth Shambling Shell, because mulliganing is not an option. Additional removal might be ok.

@Flayer: It also kills those Peacekeepers and cleanse the path for you ;-)

Greetings Mindlash

[Final Fortune]

I suppose you could. The reason I like Dryad Arbor is that it can be naturally drawn as the eighth card instead of having to be in your opening seven to be as effective as Chancellor would be. Dryad Arbor kind of just fits the bill in so many different ways, it's really hard to pass up. I've just really liked it since I've started playing it.

However, I'm open to trying something new and that sounds like it has its merits. I'm not so sure yet. Tonight at the local I'm going to try Annex and see how he turns out.

There are disadvantages to Dryad Arbor as well, regardless of being an option when you draw a Dryad Arbor as opposed to not being an when you draw a Chancellor of the Forge to put a creature into play, you have to physically put Dryad Arbor into play from your hand where you get to keep Chancellor of the Forge in your hand and put a token on the board. Not only do you get your creature a turn earlier, not only do you get to attack with said creature two turns earlier (Haste) but you also get to keep 7 cards in your hand to either keep DDDing the same Dredger (Golgari Grave Troll to maximize your Dredging) but you get to discard an additional card if you're chain Dredging instead (a Cabal Therapy for example)

Ofcourse, the Goblin Token doesn't activate Bridge from Below, but Chancellor of the Forge is a much more attractive Dread Return target, so trade offs, trade offs trade offs as they say.

[nakazkirai]

There are disadvantages to Dryad Arbor as well, regardless of being an option when you draw a Dryad Arbor as opposed to not being an when you draw a Chancellor of the Forge to put a creature into play, you have to physically put Dryad Arbor into play from your hand where you get to keep Chancellor of the Forge in your hand and put a token on the board. Not only do you get your creature a turn earlier, not only do you get to attack with said creature two turns earlier (Haste) but you also get to keep 7 cards in your hand to either keep DDDing the same Dredger (Golgari Grave Troll to maximize your Dredging) but you get to discard an additional card if you're chain Dredging instead (a Cabal Therapy for example)

Ofcourse, the Goblin Token doesn't activate Bridge from Below, but Chancellor of the Forge is a much more attractive Dread Return target, so trade offs, trade offs trade offs as they say.

I think in Hollywood's build its better to play dryad arbor than chancellor of the forge because if u dont start with them its better to return other target for dread return. The arbors are superior during the sideboard because your chances to cast an artifact/enchantment hate is better than starting with 4 chancellor.

[Michael Keller]

There are disadvantages to Dryad Arbor as well, regardless of being an option when you draw a Dryad Arbor as opposed to not being an when you draw a Chancellor of the Forge to put a creature into play, you have to physically put Dryad Arbor into play from your hand where you get to keep Chancellor of the Forge in your hand and put a token on the board. Not only do you get your creature a turn earlier, not only do you get to attack with said creature two turns earlier (Haste) but you also get to keep 7 cards in your hand to either keep DDDing the same Dredger (Golgari Grave Troll to maximize your Dredging) but you get to discard an additional card if you're chain Dredging instead (a Cabal Therapy for example)

Ofcourse, the Goblin Token doesn't activate Bridge from Below, but Chancellor of the Forge is a much more attractive Dread Return target, so trade offs, trade offs trade offs as they say.

Yeah. I'm just sold on Dryad Arbor for its overall utility. It's a very attractive card with Dread Return, and as previously stated it alleviates some pressure when you move to the sideboard when boarding in lands and such. Keeping Chancellor in hand is nice, but the bonus of creating tokens and adding mana is what I'm after, really.

[slave]

Hi everyone,
Very interested in this deck.

I have a couple question's;
I get why Grisel & Flayer are so killer, not just for SnT matchups, but could you guys explain some thing for me?
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur draws you 7 cards at end of turn, but also nukes your opponents' cards in hand, killing their chance to prevent you just winning next turn if they can't win straight away.
After going through this thread (that took a while! Cheers for the read), even before Grisel was around, Jin wasn't making much of a mention.
Given it's a guarauntee'd way to Dredge your deck when your life is lower than 7, is it playable?

Cards like Contagion, Shoal etc;
When you cast those, you have to have a Dredger in the GY or it's just a very nervous and possible scoop right?

Finally, is anyone still playing Gitaxian Probe anymore? IS the extra consistency it provides really needed?
Being able to see their hand turn1 just seems pretty handy to me....

Thanks!

[kwis]

I think the biggest problem with Jin is that you have to wait a turn after you return it to nix thier hand and win.

The Grisel option just lets you win outright with a flayer-->troll kill off 3 dread returns if your opponent can't interact.

Older options were things like Sage or Sphinx to try and simulate similar options with a flame-kin kill, however Grisel Flayer is so explosive there is little reason to play the alternatives unless you're worried about having the life to pitch to Grisel. Jin might be playable as a 1-of sideboard card if you were using a manaless build that had silver bullet slots. If we're talking about hollywoods list you don't really have that flexibility unless you're cutting Rev Silence or Shoal/Contagion. Cutting the artifact destruction would likely be a mistake with cage running around.

I see Contagion/Shoal as cards that you play on T3-T4 rather than things you're going to play before dredge engine is running. I think that once the new W/G 2/1 gets printed it will make things significantly more difficult to deal with.

Did you mean see their hand T2? Don't you normally use Probe similarly to street wraith to accelerate your DDD? I'm considering bringing probe in for extra consistency in Game 1 because the decks I play against don't have that many annoying creatures that need to be removed in Game 1. GSZ takes an extra turn to fetch an answer and I'm willing to rely on that timing and a potential Therapy. I appreciate Therapy is strong when you're familiar with what's running around, but given that probe also accelerates DDD and lets you know what line of play you can go all-in on I think it's possibly better to be proactive in Game 1 rather than reactive.

[slave]

I think the biggest problem with Jin is that you have to wait a turn after you return it to nix thier hand and win. The Grisel option just lets you win outright with a flayer.....

Did you mean see their hand T2? I'm considering bringing probe in for extra consistency in Game 1 because the decks I play against don't have that many annoying creatures that need to be removed in Game 1.....I appreciate Therapy is strong when you're familiar with what's running around.

Cheers.
Yeah I thought that was the thought behind Jin. He's a beast in Reanimator, but then with SnT running in those decks now Jin seems to have lost his place to the Grisel.

You're right :wink: - Gitaxian Probe is far better once a dredger is in the yard, so it would be turn 2.
I'm actually thinking about running Hollywoods' list (Thanks Hollywood!!) except with a slight change.
Opting the creature hate out for game 1 and running Gitaxian Probe instead for a higher chance of having either that or Street Wraith in hand, making my dredge on turn 2 more explosive. Whilst I see Sundering Titan as a very valid choice, I think I might just go for another Shambling Shell.
I'm sure this isn't gonna be as resilient as Hollywoods' list, so I'll try both this and his list against a variety of match-ups and see how I go. I'm pretty keen to see how both versions fair against heavy counter, storm and Show'n'Tell decks.

I just wanna thank everyone here for their contribution to this thread - very good read, very informative and well thought out. Thanks heaps!!

[GoldenCid]

Guys...i had the idea of runnig this deck tomorrow in a big tournament here. A friend of mine who know the meta better than me told me that i will be full of burn, goblins and maverick. Do you think that is wise going with manaless??

[Michael Keller]

Guys...i had the idea of runnig this deck tomorrow in a big tournament here. A friend of mine who know the meta better than me told me that i will be full of burn, goblins and maverick. Do you think that is wise going with manaless??

Sure, why not? If you peruse around and see a lot of Burn, you could even flex the Titan slot for an Iona or Ancestor's Chosen. Contagion also helps against Goblins and Maverick. It's at least something to consider - and it depends strongly on the list you opt to run.

[GoldenCid]

Sure, why not? If you peruse around and see a lot of Burn, you could even flex the Titan slot for an Iona or Ancestor's Chosen. Contagion also helps against Goblins and Maverick. It's at least something to consider - and it depends strongly on the list you opt to run. one very similar to yours but with sphinx instead of griselda because of burn...

[Felidae]

one very similar to yours but with sphinx instead of griselda because of burn...

Don't underestimate a 7/7er lifelinker in this matchup. I'd stick with Grinselbro, as you can eihter go for the combo kill once he's tapped out ( or once you got rid of cards like Fireblast, etc. via Therapy) or simply grind them out with his body ( boy that sounds creepy).
As Hollywood allreaddy suggested: Rather go for an Iona / Ancenstors Choosen in the flex slot and don't worry about the matchup at all ( while also improving your other matchups, as Grinselbro is better in each of those, compared to Sphinx).


Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur draws you 7 cards at end of turn, but also nukes your opponents' cards in hand, killing their chance to prevent you just winning next turn if they can't win straight away.


You had allready answerd your own question with the underlined parts, turning your whole deck upside down eot, only to run straight into hate , kinda sucks.

I'm going to play Manaless next wednsday ( Hollywoods list with a little tweak: Maindeck -1 Titan +1 Vizzedrix ( because I have to rum him, at least once) and SB -2 Forest +2 Bayou (I'll explain that choice later).

cheers

[Final Fortune]

one very similar to yours but with sphinx instead of griselda because of burn...

Cutting Griselbrand vs Burn is like cutting Force of Will vs Storm, don't do it. Seriously, people shoudl just cut all of the bullshit Dread Return targets from their deck and just play Griselbrand and Flayer of the Hatebound, there's no reason to play anything else.

[slave]

Hs anyone tried running more than one Flayer?
I'm thinking two Flayer, three Grisel at the mo'. I did about 3 hours with this deck last night goldfishing/playing - five Dread Return Targets feels good.
For some reason with a single Flayer I just never find it, and my mate just kept extracting my Grisel (proxy).

[Michael Keller]

Getting your Griselbrands Surgically Extracted isn't the worst thing that can happen to you.

However, two Flayer seems like a reasonable number to me - with three Griselbrand.

[(nameless one)]

What's the best replacement for Sundering Titan in the main? - I just don't like him.

More Shoal / Contagion? Or another DR-Target which kills problematic Permanents like Terastodeon? [stuff like Solitary Confinement for example...]

What about Realm Razer?

It deals with all the lands on the field, even lands without basic types. It also gets mono-color decks.

Also, would Iona, Shield of Emeria be good? She can randomly shut down a lot of decks by herself.

I've posted this at the other Dredge thread:

Speaking of LED Dredge vs. Manaless Dredge:

I'm contemplating to update my old list. I am not planning to pilot it more often (I have MUD as my primary deck) but I do like having options when the local meta shifts.

Anyways, what would be the better deck to catch a meta that will run less gravehate but resilient enough against the current DtB list?

Personally I'm contemplating on upgrading to Manaless since its cheaper ($240 for playset of LED is debatable in my budget).

Thanks in advance!

I'm also looking for advices here.

[Michael Keller]

If you guys are looking for dedicated targets, I would keep it simple; Griselbrand and Flayer do the job perfectly. They are the best at what they do and effectively win the game on the spot. You really don't have to worry too much about Burn being an issue with Griselbrand and Therapies.

Certain games can be an issue, and if your meta is flooded with good Burn players then you could consider an Iona or Chosen. Aside from that, you really don't need to worry too much about it.

That being said, here is my current list:

//Dredgers
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[3x] Shambling Shell

//Recursive Threats
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow

//Combo Enablers
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Phantasmagorian

//Utility Cards
[4x] Dryad Arbor
[3x] Contagion
[1x] Sickening Shoal

//DR Package
[4x] Dread Return
[3x] Griselbrand
[2x] Flayer of the Hatebound

//Sideboard
[4x] Nature's Claim
[4x] Reverent Silence
[3x] Sickening Shoal
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest
[1x] Contagion

Obviously interchangeable utilities with each of these cards. I'm also really liking the versatility of the second Flayer.

As for Bayou, eh. I don't really like it in the sideboard and I think it's more of a liability against decks running Wasteland. I think you should take advantage of a hand opening with a fetch against those decks so you can reliably have something to keep in play while playing or drawing into anti-hate. It's not worth risking the blowout or deepening a hole you could (potentially) be in.

I've also thought about trimming down the Contagion out of the board. What would go in its place is anyone's guess, but it's just a thought. I really like opening with removal and it gives you some breathing room when you have a slower start.

EDIT: Mindbreak Trap is also helpful against Storm.

[L10]

Hey Hollywood, why not have Ancient Grudge in the SB? It seems a lot less awkward to cast from the grave than to cast by hand since we are not going to mulligan anyways. Nature's Claim also does nothing against MUD sometimes because they play Chalice @ 1. Seems to be an overall better artifact hate. Though, I guess we still need enchantment hate in some form. I fear Rest in Peace will see use once RtR comes out.

Ray of Revelation is also a flashback enchantment hate option. Obviously does nothing against LotV or RIP, but still a SB choice to consider.

[Mindlash]

Hey Hollywood, why not have Ancient Grudge in the SB? It seems a lot less awkward to cast from the grave than to cast by hand since we are not going to mulligan anyways. Nature's Claim also does nothing against MUD sometimes because they play Chalice @ 1. Seems to be an overall better artifact hate. Though, I guess we still need enchantment hate in some form. I fear Rest in Peace will see use once RtR comes out.

Ancient Grudge does nothing against Leyline and Rest in Peace like you already said.
In Hollywoods Deck is green mana only...so it also does nothing against Cage (no flashbacking Grudge for green when Cage is active).

Chalice 1 does not hurt much. You can still recurr all your creatures and sac them into DR for Griselbrand into Flayer or something like that. Chalice 1 only permits the use of Cabal Therapy here and of course the Anti-Hate in form of Claim.

Greetings Mindlash

[Michael Keller]

Ancient Grudge does nothing against Leyline and Rest in Peace like you already said.
In Hollywoods Deck is green mana only...so it also does nothing against Cage (no flashbacking Grudge for green when Cage is active).

Chalice 1 does not hurt much. You can still recurr all your creatures and sac them into DR for Griselbrand into Flayer or something like that. Chalice 1 only permits the use of Cabal Therapy here and of course the Anti-Hate in form of Claim.

Greetings Mindlash

If we're talking about games two and three, I don't know why an opponent would keep Chalice in to begin with. It counters Therapy and that's about it. And that doesn't stop tokens off Bridge, anyhow.

[rektareloaded]

Hey Hollywood, why not have Ancient Grudge in the SB? It seems a lot less awkward to cast from the grave than to cast by hand since we are not going to mulligan anyways. Nature's Claim also does nothing against MUD sometimes because they play Chalice @ 1. Seems to be an overall better artifact hate. Though, I guess we still need enchantment hate in some form. I fear Rest in Peace will see use once RtR comes out.

Ray of Revelation is also a flashback enchantment hate option. Obviously does nothing against LotV or RIP, but still a SB choice to consider.


i think you're in the wrong thread mate!. you're referring to manadredge. this is manaless dredge thread lol

manaless is not afraid of chalice as mentioned above we can still play our creatures for free

[sherko7]

With Rest in Peace coming up, do you think Manaless Ichorid will be more affected by it than Mana Dredge/the Quad Laser lists?

[Michael Keller]

With Rest in Peace coming up, do you think Manaless Ichorid will be more affected by it than Mana Dredge/the Quad Laser lists?

Rest in Peace is a card that will see fringe play. It costs two to play, so it isn't getting "cheated" into play like Leyline would. It won't be any more than a one or two-of in sideboards of decks that play Enlightened Tutor, and it's a card that can be destroyed by Nature's Claim and Reverent Silence. It might be maxed out in Helm decks trying to be good, but that will fade into obscurity when people realize it isn't all that good.

Decks that will be abusing this strategy probably won't be using blue all that much anyhow, so no, I don't see it as a problem anymore than any of the other sideboard cards that give the deck fits as it is. It's just a new card so it will see a spike in play to being with, that's all.

[L10]

I am mainly afraid of not being able to kill Platinum Emperion with the protection of Chalice of the Void @ 1 (stops Nature's Claim) vs. MUD. The only other option I see it to burn Platinum Emperion with Flayer. MUD Stompy is actually my primary deck, and Platinum Emperion usually results a concession against the Dredge player, unless they board in artifact hate. But I have Chalice and Trinisphere to stop that from happening.

[rektareloaded]

I am mainly afraid of not being able to kill Platinum Emperion with the protection of Chalice of the Void @ 1 (stops Nature's Claim) vs. MUD. The only other option I see it to burn Platinum Emperion with Flayer. MUD Stompy is actually my primary deck, and Platinum Emperion usually results a concession against the Dredge player, unless they board in artifact hate. But I have Chalice and Trinisphere to stop that from happening.

again chalice is not a problem w/ manaless dredge. thre real problem is when a stax player played plat emperion + lodestone golem. then we cant DR flayer for win, :cry:

[Mindlash]

I am mainly afraid of not being able to kill Platinum Emperion with the protection of Chalice of the Void @ 1 (stops Nature's Claim) vs. MUD. The only other option I see it to burn Platinum Emperion with Flayer. MUD Stompy is actually my primary deck, and Platinum Emperion usually results a concession against the Dredge player, unless they board in artifact hate. But I have Chalice and Trinisphere to stop that from happening.

Sickening Shoal with Griselbrand might also work if they did't board out their Chalice.

[nakazkirai]

I like to use 4 Call to the Netherworld to recycle Street Wraith. You can recycle milled/used Wraith to speed the mills. You can discard it during your end phase, cast by madness, recycle the Wraith and you can even discard your dredge from your hand. Or if the opponent use surgical extraction targetting Ichorid you can save it by Phantasmagorian discard eff.

Have someone tested Spinning Darkness and/or Unmask Main/Side?

[rektareloaded]

I like to use 4 Call to the Netherworld to recycle Street Wraith. You can recycle milled/used Wraith to speed the mills. You can discard it during your end phase, cast by madness, recycle the Wraith and you can even discard your dredge from your hand. Or if the opponent use surgical extraction targetting Ichorid you can save it by Phantasmagorian discard eff.

Have someone tested Spinning Darkness and/or Unmask Main/Side?

nice idea about call to the underworld. :tongue: but i like gitaxian probe more :laugh: . but ill give it a try :wink:

[slave]

In the decks running Dryad Arbor like Hollywoods' list;

Has anyone tried running Carpet of Flowers against blue decks post SB?
Just an idle thought, I haven't tested it, but I was wondering if it may be an additional way to help playing through graveyard hate like Grafdigger's, by putting our cheap creatures in play and hitting. Thoughts?

[rektareloaded]

In the decks running Dryad Arbor like Hollywoods' list;

Has anyone tried running Carpet of Flowers against blue decks post SB?
Just an idle thought, I haven't tested it, but I was wondering if it may be an additional way to help playing through graveyard hate like Grafdigger's, by putting our cheap creatures in play and hitting. Thoughts?

in my list i MB 4 dakmor salvage for me to play my thugs and stinkweed imps

[Michael Keller]

I like to use 4 Call to the Netherworld to recycle Street Wraith. You can recycle milled/used Wraith to speed the mills. You can discard it during your end phase, cast by madness, recycle the Wraith and you can even discard your dredge from your hand. Or if the opponent use surgical extraction targetting Ichorid you can save it by Phantasmagorian discard eff.

Why do I get a hard-on thinking about this line of play?

[Mindlash]

Why do I get a hard-on thinking about this line of play?

I do like the additional lines of play with this card. It accelerate dredges, protects cards from targeted hate and last but not least: fits into the style of a gravedeck cardwise :-)

Naturally it fits perfect in the probe slots. Now we have either Arbor or the removals to cut...both of which I really like in this deck :-/

Perhaps we can shave-cut it into the deck somewhere.

Addionally if you already have Shoal in your hand but are in need of a fatty, you can blast through tough creatures like Platinum Emperion with ease by getting Grisel back in your hand for the pitch.

[nakazkirai]

I do like the additional lines of play with this card. It accelerate dredges, protects cards from targeted hate and last but not least: fits into the style of a gravedeck cardwise :-)

Naturally it fits perfect in the probe slots. Now we have either Arbor or the removals to cut...both of which I really like in this deck :-/

Perhaps we can shave-cut it into the deck somewhere.

Addionally if you already have Shoal in your hand but are in need of a fatty, you can blast through tough creatures like Platinum Emperion with ease by getting Grisel back in your hand for the pitch.

Using Hollywood's list as reference you can make that substitutes:

Remove:
[2x] Shambling Shell
[1x] Phantasmagorian
[1x] Sickening Shoal


Add:
[4x] Call to the Netherworld

//Dredgers
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[1x] Shambling Shell

//Recursive Threats
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow

//Combo Enablers
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Bridge from Below
[3x] Phantasmagorian

//Utility Cards
[4x] Dryad Arbor
[3x] Contagion
[4x] Call to the Netherworld

//DR Package
[4x] Dread Return
[3x] Griselbrand
[2x] Flayer of the Hatebound

//Sideboard
[4x] Nature's Claim
[4x] Reverent Silence
[3x] Sickening Shoal
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest
[1x] Contagion

Why I choose to remove that cards is because you really don't need more than 1 Shambling Shell because rarely you won't start with a dredge card and after you have your graveyard with more than one dredge you will never choose to dredge by Shambling Shell. Removed 1 Phantasmagorian because you dont need more than 3, with 1 you can trigger it as many necessary to drop all the cards from your hand, they can be food for Ichorid but it don't really matters because the focus is to win the fast as you can so you dont need that many copies. And the last card is Sickening Shoal but it can be 1 Contagion it depends of you like most.

I have uploaded a game using Call to the Netherworld against affinity and how it helped to speed my game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGsqi05HhrQ

Gitaxian Probe is good because it can help you to see oponnent's hand and use with Cabal Therapy but using Call to the Netherworld speeds more because you can activate during opponent's end phase so your nether shadows/Ichorid can enter next turn.

[slave]

Netherworld looks awesome - cheers for the Vid.

Mikaeus?
I'm guessing this is all about the combination of Flayer & Dread Return, but do you find it really that useful?

[(nameless one)]

Hey guys, if you side in the Forest + Fetchlands, do you side out the Dryad Arbors?

[Mindlash]

Hey guys, if you side in the Forest + Fetchlands, do you side out the Dryad Arbors?

The Arbors are in the Maindeck to save sideboardspace and because they work really well in this deck. You board your Fetchlands and the Forest in addition to Arbors to fight hate.

Hollywoods posted some boardingplans on page 27 for reference.

Greetings Mindlash

[Michael Keller]

In Manaless, you really don't want to go below fifteen (15) dredgers. Cutting Shell down to one seems iffy here.

[(nameless one)]

The Arbors are in the Maindeck to save sideboardspace and because they work really well in this deck. You board your Fetchlands and the Forest in addition to Arbors to fight hate.

Hollywoods posted some boardingplans on page 27 for reference.

Greetings Mindlash

Oh okay. My idea was wrong them.

I was going to switch the Arbors to Dakmor Salvage and use Bloodghasts instead of Nether Shadow but now I do see that having virtually three green mana source post-board won't work.

[nakazkirai]

Netherworld looks awesome - cheers for the Vid.

Mikaeus?
I'm guessing this is all about the combination of Flayer & Dread Return, but do you find it really that useful?

thanks. I'm making some tests with other cards to see how they work with the deck. Griselbrand and Flayer are sufficient to end game but I like how Mikaeus boost all the tokens and other creatures of the deck and how it gives undying to them. With Mikaeus on the field every Ichorid become 4/2 and they undye during end phase and survives until opponent's end phase. So every creature will double the tokens of bridge and gives a new "effect" to every non used cabal therapy. Like I said Grisel and Flayer are enought to end game.
One card I really like is Chancellor of the Annex because the free "Daze" slow down opponents and make their free first turn not so great. And sometimes gives an extra turm against a fast show and tell omniscience because if they are tapped they can't play free griselbrand.


In Manaless, you really don't want to go below fifteen (15) dredgers. Cutting Shell down to one seems iffy here.

Well it's working for me but u can cut other cards too. Uploaded a video with the list i posted against a LED dredge.

I think the Call to the Netherworld is better than gitaxian because you don't loose life if they counter that spell. And the main reason is if you chain phantasmagorian during opponent's end phase your chances to bring back an ichorid/nether shadow during your next upkeep is better than a main phase gitaxian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7krTEH7gtg

[(nameless one)]

I don't get it,

How do you chain Call of the Netherworld to Phantasmagorian. It returns it back to your hand, not draw it.

I think I am missing something, can anyone explain please.

Thanks

[Michael Keller]

thanks. I'm making some tests with other cards to see how they work with the deck. Griselbrand and Flayer are sufficient to end game but I like how Mikaeus boost all the tokens and other creatures of the deck and how it gives undying to them. With Mikaeus on the field every Ichorid become 4/2 and they undye during end phase and survives until opponent's end phase. So every creature will double the tokens of bridge and gives a new "effect" to every non used cabal therapy. Like I said Grisel and Flayer are enought to end game.
One card I really like is Chancellor of the Annex because the free "Daze" slow down opponents and make their free first turn not so great. And sometimes gives an extra turm against a fast show and tell omniscience because if they are tapped they can't play free griselbrand.

Mikaeus is just a terrible option. You're better off playing simply Griselbrand and Flayer of the Hatebound. Both are simple and the most effective at what the deck is ultimately trying to accomplish. Mikaeus is simply a worse Flame-kin Zealot, really nothing more.


Well it's working for me but u can cut other cards too. Uploaded a video with the list i posted against a LED dredge.

I'm sure your sample size is distorting your long-term percentages with this sort of build. Beginning the game with an 83.72% chance of opening a dredger seems incredibly low in a deck that inherently cannot mulligan. You simply cannot afford to start a game without a dredger - easily the most important card(s) in this archetype.


I think the Call to the Netherworld is better than gitaxian because you don't loose life if they counter that spell. And the main reason is if you chain phantasmagorian during opponent's end phase your chances to bring back an ichorid/nether shadow during your next upkeep is better than a main phase gitaxian.

I would agree in certain circumstances that Call is better than Probe, but there are also instances where Probe is simply better. If by "chain" you mean having two Phantasmagorian, then yes you could chain them into each other. Call is a spell that can only be used once and aside from its application with Street Wraith really is more overkill than anything else once you go to the sideboard.

The one thing I do like about Call is how it is less dependent on opening or drawing into mana than something that would necessitate mana, like Claim, although both are used for different purposes. You really don't need to board against Surgical Extraction because it is the worst hate an opponent can use against you in most circumstances. Call is more overkill than anything else in that Street Wraith itself is useful against Extraction on dredgers. It's something I would consider; aside from that it's simply more cute than anything else.

[nakazkirai]

Mikaeus is just a terrible option. You're better off playing simply Griselbrand and Flayer of the Hatebound. Both are simple and the most effective at what the deck is ultimately trying to accomplish. Mikaeus is simply a worse Flame-kin Zealot, really nothing more.



I'm sure your sample size is distorting your long-term percentages with this sort of build. Beginning the game with an 83.72% chance of opening a dredger seems incredibly low in a deck that inherently cannot mulligan. You simply cannot afford to start a game without a dredger - easily the most important card(s) in this archetype.



I would agree in certain circumstances that Call is better than Probe, but there are also instances where Probe is simply better. If by "chain" you mean having two Phantasmagorian, then yes you could chain them into each other. Call is a spell that can only be used once and aside from its application with Street Wraith really is more overkill than anything else once you go to the sideboard.

The one thing I do like about Call is how it is less dependent on opening or drawing into mana than something that would necessitate mana, like Claim, although both are used for different purposes. You really don't need to board against Surgical Extraction because it is the worst hate an opponent can use against you in most circumstances. Call is more overkill than anything else in that Street Wraith itself is useful against Extraction on dredgers. It's something I would consider; aside from that it's simply more cute than anything else.

ok, sorry for my opinions

[Michael Keller]

ok, sorry for my opinions

It's okay to be opinionated; there's no need to fetch sympathy from anyone. I am simply giving my opinion too, but you should consider the added risks you are involving when you remove key slots in the deck that could create long-term issues.

Continue to promote ideas!

[nakazkirai]

I don't get it,

How do you chain Call of the Netherworld to Phantasmagorian. It returns it back to your hand, not draw it.

I think I am missing something, can anyone explain please.

Thanks

If Phantasmagorian is in your graveyard you can discard Call of the Netherworld and before Phantasmagorian returns to your hand you can cast Call for its madness cost and return Street Wraith if you have it in your graveyard or other black creature



It's okay to be opinionated; there's no need to fetch sympathy from anyone. I am simply giving my opinion too, but you should consider the added risks you are involving when you remove key slots in the deck that could create long-term issues.

Continue to promote ideas!

Ok, i'm giving my opinions too but its not just thinks that I thought that "would work" or "would be better than or not". Before just posting I'm testing it everyday on Magic Online at tournament practice so they are not just opinions that maybe work or not. Thats why I removed some cards to use Call main deck because it turns 4 street wraiths into 8 street wraiths, if you dont start with Street Wraith you have more chances to get them back from graveyard and do extra mills the Tech against surgical extraction is just a plus and not a really side against it. The same happens if you dont start with contagion in your openning hand they are just dead card in graveyard but they are great if you start with. During sideboard depending of how many hates I sideboard i remove the call from Main deck.
And like i said for Mikaeus: " I'm making some tests with other cards to see how they work with the deck. Griselbrand and Flayer are sufficient to end game".
And I have tested it before just "random insert into deck" and I test the cards before saying its worse or not. I know that Grisel and Flayer are just enought.

[(nameless one)]

I missed the Street Wraith. Now I see it.

[rektareloaded]

just tried the dryad arbor maindeck build. no offense but i didnt like it. i noticed that if you dont have DA in hand (which happens most of the time) your bloodghast is like a deadcard in GY unless you'll waste 1 DR to resurrect your dryad, and i think its a waste of dread return. unlike if im using the traditional dakmor salvage, even if i didnt have it in hand, once it shows up in my GY in a few turns, i can just dredge it back and play it to get bloodghast out.

also about the call to the netherworld thing, i think ill choose gitaxian probe over it coz you need phanstagorian/8cards in hand and a streetwraith in GY for you to use it.

just my opinion :smile:

[Mindlash]

just tried the dryad arbor maindeck build. no offense but i didnt like it. i noticed that if you dont have DA in hand (which happens most of the time) your bloodghast is like a deadcard in GY:

Bloodghast in the Dryad Arbor build? What am I missing? Perhaps you should try Hollywoods build before you dislike Arbor ;-)

[nakazkirai]

also about the call to the netherworld thing, i think ill choose gitaxian probe over it coz you need phanstagorian/8cards in hand and a streetwraith in GY for you to use it.

just my opinion :smile:

For the Call thing you don't need phantasmaghorian in hand its gonna be in your graveyard and anyway you will need 8 cards to discard during your first end phase. You can trigger phantasmagorian eff during opponent's turn too so you can discard Call without need to wait your end phase discard. And you can trigger Phantasmagorian eff multiple times to its own eff.

And I'm testing too a version with Bloodghast they are great when you have a Flayer on the field. Just for test i'm testing with Ichorid, Nether Shadow, Bloodghast and 2 Ashen Ghouls. Working with more returns you have more options against surgical extraction targets. The Ashen ghoul works with Dakmor salvage because anyway they are going to enter tapped and after some time they will be with no use unless you use cabal therapy from your hand but during your next upkeep you can use ashen ghouls eff. And using Dakmor Salvage it allows Darkblast. I'm testing with 4 arbors and 2 dakmor.

I like any build with gitaxian/Call because both have great synergys with other cards in the deck. There is no really best deck version of manaless the best is the one that works fine with your playstyle and against the metagame from were you are. :smile:

[kwis]

Bloodghast in the Dryad Arbor build? What am I missing? Perhaps you should try Hollywoods build before you dislike Arbor ;-)

It's generally pretty foolish to be playing Blood without Salvage.

[L10]

Bloodghast?


//Dredgers
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[3x] Shambling Shell

//Recursive Threats
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow

//Combo Enablers
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Phantasmagorian

//Utility Cards
[4x] Dryad Arbor
[3x] Contagion
[1x] Sickening Shoal

//DR Package
[4x] Dread Return
[3x] Griselbrand
[2x] Flayer of the Hatebound

//Sideboard
[4x] Nature's Claim
[4x] Reverent Silence
[3x] Sickening Shoal
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest
[1x] Contagion

[(nameless one)]

I think I started this confusion.

The debate was Dryad Arbor + Nether Shadow vs. Dakmor Salvage + Bloodghast.

I have both Bloodghasts and Salvages so I am trying to justify not getting the other package. But if it's suboptimal, then it will not work out and will run the other pieces.

[slave]

I think I started this confusion.

The debate was Dryad Arbor + Nether Shadow vs. Dakmor Salvage + Bloodghast.

I have both Bloodghasts and Salvages so I am trying to justify not getting the other package. But if it's suboptimal, then it will not work out and will run the other pieces.

Considering Mana-less dredge is already a less optimal version of dredge I don't think this would be a massive problem. :wink:

I like both, but only one of them allows you access to green for ench & artifact hate, and the other one lets you cast Cabal Therapy lots....
I know it's not quite that simple, there's lots of lines of play here, but Manaless relies on Dredging for 5 or 6, using it for Dakmor Salvage means the Ghasts' have to be worth taking that draw.

[Michael Keller]

Considering Mana-less dredge is already a less optimal version of dredge I don't think this would be a massive problem. :wink:

What planet are you living on?

Being a "suboptimal" version of another deck configured to operate totally different is completely irrelevant; Manaless Dredge is a much better choice given the general status of the meta right now. In fact, Manaless - right now - is better in almost every way, IMO. With decks like Miracles, RUG and fast aggro (Goblins) taking the driver's seat, there's no question Manaless has the advantage and doesn't get blown out by a Spell Pierce, Force, Wasteland or Daze on a potentially weak keep. Those slower decks are easy prey to a deck dedicated to beat them.

The reason I switched away from LED Dredge was due in large part to the abhorrently inconsistent scenarios that would pop up so often: lack of a good threat density, high susceptibility to Bridges and Narcomoebas being 'Extracted, leaning on two Ichorids or the more conditional Ashen Ghoul as backups, etc. Believe it or not, but varied hate is actually more backbreaking against LED Dredge, not only for the aforementioned reasons, but because if you've played against it enough it is very easy to beat - which is why it continues to only put up slightly above average results (barring a big placing here and there) with the retarded number of people playing it.

The most popular form of graveyard hate right now would have to arguably be Surgical Extraction, Scavenging Ooze and Tormod's Crypt - with Relic not too far behind. Manaless has game against each of those and has a powerful enough sixty to compliment its sideboard when an opponent brings in hate. Mulling into Leyline is just a joke if you have a decent hand, but LED Dredge continuously has issues post-board when a skilled opponent understands what to hit and how to beat it. That is what I got tired of, at least for now, with LED Dredge: it just kept getting hated out the correct way. People running decks like RUG and Stone-Blade can't beat the lack of interactiveness Manaless brings to the table.

Right now, I believe Manaless is a better option and in no way, shape or form is a "suboptimal" version of Dredge. Although, one could make an argument for it being more susceptible to specific forms of hate, notably Leyline of the Void.

[rektareloaded]

ended at 1st place again using manaless dredge. total of 48 players participated (if im not mistaken). taking home a set of tarmogoyf :laugh:

will post my tournament report tomorrow coz im alrdy tired playing 6 rounds of swiss and 3 games in top 8.

cheers!:laugh:

[nakazkirai]

ended at 1st place again using manaless dredge. total of 48 players participated (if im not mistaken). taking home a set of tarmogoyf :laugh:

will post my tournament report tomorrow coz im alrdy tired playing 6 rounds of swiss and 3 games in top 8.

cheers!:laugh:

:smile:

Congratulations! =D Did u use manaless with bloodghast?

[Mindlash]

ended at 1st place again using manaless dredge. total of 48 players participated (if im not mistaken). taking home a set of tarmogoyf :laugh:

will post my tournament report tomorrow coz im alrdy tired playing 6 rounds of swiss and 3 games in top 8.

cheers!:laugh:

Congratulations. :-)

Really awesome pricepool for 48 players Oo
You have to win a 80 person tournament to get first pic for 1 dual land here :-(

Manaless really performs well in this meta.
Looking forward to your report.

Greetings Mindlash

[slave]

Right now, Manaless is a better option and in no way, shape or form is a "suboptimal" version of Dredge.

No worries - I can respect that, didn't mean to stir the pot.
I like Manaless a lot.
No offense intended Hollywood.

I've tested your Manaless version against friends' legacy decks in proxy form quite a bit.
You said that Manaless plays through hate better;
I'm not doubting that the opponent can interact with us less with Manaless, thereby having fewer ways to stop us, but could you explain this for me?

I find whenever a Tormod's Crypt resolves, nuking the GY - I'm usually left waiting to get back up to 7 cards in hand to discard and start again, if I'm lucky enough to survive that long....
With LED-Dredge, there's the possibility of playing a Faithless/Careful etc. to drop a dredger in the yard.
Is there something I'm missing, or do we just always just have to wait until we get back to 8 cards, should Crypt nail the GY?

[Holly]

When fighting crypt/relic when do you not have 7 (8) cards in hand? (Besides discard)

The only times you have less then 7(8) cards in hand is when using Contagion, Shoal, Nature's Claim or playing Dryad Arbor, well or using Phantasmagorian
Well if they do have Crypt/Relic & Ooze at the same time so you do have to use your removal, then yes you have to build up to 8 cards again, but I do believe this does not happen enough of the times to matter.
Playing a Claim (and a land for it) does indeed sucks since you lose 2 cards, but you only need it for Cage & Leyline.
Playing Arbor post-board..well you should probably only do it when you have use of it, like flashbacking Theraphy for their hate or casting Dread Return etc.
On the matter of using Phantasmagorian, its kinda like LED post board. It's not that much of an all in but still feels kinda like it. You don't want to use it when they have the possibilty of Crypt/Relic, if you still have it in your deck post-board you're probably using it rarely, most of the times when you win in the same turn (or creating a winning situation in which your graveyard doesn't matter anymore).

[blindspotxxx]

ended at 1st place again using manaless dredge. total of 48 players participated (if im not mistaken). taking home a set of tarmogoyf :laugh:

will post my tournament report tomorrow coz im alrdy tired playing 6 rounds of swiss and 3 games in top 8.

cheers!:laugh:

Congrats Idol! Back to Back tournaments Force of Will and Tarmogoyf! As for me I absorbed all my bad matchups lol

Round 1: Tes - Lose

Round 2: Omniscience Show - Lose

Round 3: Tes - Win! <-- Wtf!

Round 4: Fish (Double Tormod's Game 3 :( )

Round 5: Burn - Win

Round 6: Burn (Scoop for Higher chance of prizes lol She was ranked 1 slot higher than me.)

I'm gonna use Soul Spike from now on. I think it could really steal games against Burn and Tes. I'll also probably put Show and Tell utility creatures for the Show and Tell Match ups. Terrastodon or Angel of Despair?

[ykpon]

I'll also probably put Show and Tell utility creatures for the Show and Tell Match ups. Terrastodon or Angel of Despair?

Angel for sure. It's black and able to destroy Emrakul/Griselbrand.

[rektareloaded]

Angel for sure. It's black and able to destroy Emrakul/Griselbrand.

kederekt leviathan for me... :laugh:

im working on the report now.. will post asap.

cheers!

[rektareloaded]

ended at 1st place again using manaless dredge. a total of 58 players participated (my apologies :laugh: )

match ups:

Round 1 vs The Gate (monoblack) - 2-0
i got 2 street wraith in hand and was able to attack w/ 2 ichorid on my 2nd turn. he got a bojuka bog on his hand as an answer on his turn.
i was able to recover since i still have 7 cards w/ stinkweed imp in hand, actually im expecting monoblacks to have 4 bojuka bog in their deck thats why i didnt go all out on that turn. was able to build my armies until i was able to DR flayer for the win. on our 2nd game my heart almost stop when he keep his opening hand (OMG NOOOOOO LOTV!! ) but nothing happened (cheers!) he was able to bojuka bog me again but i still recovered. got zombies bloodghast, ichorid, shadow, narco on the table. he got no answers = win.
after the match he told me its the first time he sided-out Leyline of the void in a tournament (wow! lucky me! :laugh: )

round 2 vs MUD stax -> 2-0
he played a turn 2 lodestone golem, i answered by playing 2 SW before the end of his turn. was able to dredge out 2 ichorid, 1 shadow , and 2 bridges and dredgers. eventually i overrunned him w/ my zombies in the next few turns. killed him by flayer on our game 2.

round 3 vs ANT -> 0-2
worst match ever! this is the time when you need all the luck you can get when facing this deck, instead my deck gave me slow hand w/ only dakmor salvage as a dredger :cry: . it was like bonus stage for him

round 4 vs RUG -> 2-0

round 5 vs OmniTell -> 2-1
this is the most heart stopping match i've ever had in the tournament. he was able to play show and tell bringing down emrakul vs my narcomoeba . i attacked w/ my 2 narco and ichorid, after blockers have been assigned, i then discarded my hand via phantasmagorian bringing down 2 bridges and 2 bloodghast. i then played my dakmor salvage to bring back my bloodghast to create more tokens once he attacks, i was able to win game 1 thanks to bridge from below. game 2- he played turn 1 graftdiggers cage, i was able to dredge out my lands and played them (total of 3 dakmors in play) but i cant kill him fast enough w/ golgari thugs and stinkweed imp, he won via omniscience bringing down griselbrand then draw 7 cards bringing down emrakul and the rest is history. round 3- i got good opening hand, he then played turn 2 show and tell he played griselbrand vs my kederekt leviathan, he draw 7 cards before returning but he got lands and cantrips . he returned my leviathan via echoing truth but he got no other answer for my zombies and ichorid. win!

round 6 vs RUG 2-0 =)

ended at 1st place after the swiss

top 8 game:

vs punishing maverick -> 2-1
i got good hands in game 1, was able to kill him on turn 2 via flayer and gravetroll w/o even attacking. game 2 he got all the hates he need to stop me (bojuka bog, teeg, jitte, etc, ). got no answer, i lose game 2. during round 3 i was shocked when he played enlightened tutor at the end of my turn (OMG im dead its wheel of sun and moon! NOOOOOO). luckily he revealed pithing needle???? (yey!). he then played it but i responded by playing streetwraith on my dredger. eventually he was able to play teeg and KOTR but i alrdy got a lot of zombies and recurring dudes in play. Win!

top 4 game:
vs reanimator -> 2-0

Finals:

VS URW miracle
quick win in game 1 via flayer. during round 2 he played 2 meddling mage naming dread return and cabal therapy, but was able to overrun him w/ zombies and recurring gang. Win.

here's my deklist

Manaless Dredge
by Kathlean Capote

Lands: 4
4 Dakmor Salvage

Creatures: 40
4 Golgari grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell
2 Flayer of the hatebound
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith

Others: 16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Gitaxian Probe

Sideboard: 15
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Sphinx of Steelwind
1 Kederekt Leviathan
1 Angel of despair
1 Terastodon
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Reverent Silence
1 Sickening Shoal
2 Soul Spike

as you can see i removed my 4 faerie macabre coz im not expecting to face any graveyard deck. i still cant find 2 copies of soul spike (i hope someone can send me those 2 for free hahahah)

some photos:
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/132339_10151087101976868_820159176_o.jpg
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/322894_10151087104771868_1429021474_o.jpg
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/340974_10151087097086868_186943565_o.jpg
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/267049_10151087096911868_1386186001_o.jpg
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/322894_10151087104771868_1429021474_o.jpg
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/201017_10151087086616868_96365797_o.jpg
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/240418_10151087099686868_439658688_o.jpg
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/240031_10151087103491868_1134774025_o.jpg
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/622644_10151087103866868_1931552500_o.jpg
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/326839_10151087083576868_672099492_o.jpg

Thanks for reading :tongue:

Cheers!

[nakazkirai]

nice report. But you don't fear grafdigger's cage?
I when someone sideboard it and I don't have an answer =/

[rektareloaded]

nice report. But you don't fear grafdigger's cage?
I when someone sideboard it and I don't have an answer =/

i dont fear graftdiggers cage. i can still play thugs, shadows, ghast, stinkweeds via dakmor salvage. thats why even if theres a cage in play i still choose to dredge on my turn to get the lands :laugh:

[aluisiocsantos]

My brother has been playing Manaless Dredge and I just started playing a zoo version with Thalia.
The thing is that Thalia does quite a number on the deck. You can't Dread Return, and she basically is "Protection from Zombies/Ichorid" with the First Strike. The only solution to this would be overwhelming the player with zombies?

[Holly]

With Zombies & Ichorids & Nethershadows since Thalia can only block one at a time.. the first strike actually is quite good for us since we don't have to fear getting our Bridges removed.
Otherwise we can play a Therapy before she lands, or if one's playing with Dakmore Salvage/Dryad Arbor simply play that to cast a Dread Return.

[rektareloaded]

With Zombies & Ichorids & Nethershadows since Thalia can only block one at a time.. the first strike actually is quite good for us since we don't have to fear getting our Bridges removed.
Otherwise we can play a Therapy before she lands, or if one's playing with Dakmore Salvage/Dryad Arbor simply play that to cast a Dread Return.


well said....

to make it short. thalia is our best buddy in their deck. there are times when we dont have to use dread return or cabal therapy to win (which normally happens in manaless dredge). just dredge out our recurring dudes and go for the kill. :laugh:

[Shadowmap]

Just had to share this hear and see what you guys would do in the scenario...

Goldfishing Hollywood's list -4 removal +4 call to the netherworld (removal is boring to goldfish with) and drew the following hand.

Street Wraith
Narcomoeba
Cabal Therapy
Narcomoeba :frown:
Narcomoeba :mad:
Cabal Therapy :rolleyes:
Narcomoeba :cry:

After dying a little bit inside I mainphased SW hitting Call, EoT discard Call returning SW, draw Dread Return for turn, mainphase SW into DR... cry myself to sleep.

Statistically this is very uncommon but it can happen, I was considering that this might be the 1% of the time that you want/need to mulligan and I was curious about what those on here think?

[TraxDaMax]

Just had to share this hear and see what you guys would do in the scenario...

Goldfishing Hollywood's list -4 removal +4 call to the netherworld (removal is boring to goldfish with) and drew the following hand.

Street Wraith
Narcomoeba
Cabal Therapy
Narcomoeba :frown:
Narcomoeba :mad:
Cabal Therapy :rolleyes: I
Narcomoeba :cry:

After dying a little bit inside I mainphased SW hitting Call, EoT discard Call returning SW, draw Dread Return for turn, mainphase SW into DR... cry myself to sleep.

Statistically this is very uncommon but it can happen, I was considering that this might be the 1% of the time that you want/need to mulligan and I was curious about what those on here think?


I would definately mull that and timewalk myself.

[sherko7]

ended at 1st place again using manaless dredge. a total of 58 players participated (my apologies :laugh: )

match ups:

Round 1 vs The Gate (monoblack) - 2-0
i got 2 street wraith in hand and was able to attack w/ 2 ichorid on my 2nd turn. he got a bojuka bog on his hand as an answer on his turn.
i was able to recover since i still have 7 cards w/ stinkweed imp in hand, actually im expecting monoblacks to have 4 bojuka bog in their deck thats why i didnt go all out on that turn. was able to build my armies until i was able to DR flayer for the win. on our 2nd game my heart almost stop when he keep his opening hand (OMG NOOOOOO LOTV!! ) but nothing happened (cheers!) he was able to bojuka bog me again but i still recovered. got zombies bloodghast, ichorid, shadow, narco on the table. he got no answers = win.
after the match he told me its the first time he sided-out Leyline of the void in a tournament (wow! lucky me! :laugh: )

round 2 vs MUD stax -> 2-0
he played a turn 2 lodestone golem, i answered by playing 2 SW before the end of his turn. was able to dredge out 2 ichorid, 1 shadow , and 2 bridges and dredgers. eventually i overrunned him w/ my zombies in the next few turns. killed him by flayer on our game 2.

round 3 vs ANT -> 0-2
worst match ever! this is the time when you need all the luck you can get when facing this deck, instead my deck gave me slow hand w/ only dakmor salvage as a dredger :cry: . it was like bonus stage for him

round 4 vs RUG -> 2-0

round 5 vs OmniTell -> 2-1
this is the most heart stopping match i've ever had in the tournament. he was able to play show and tell bringing down emrakul vs my narcomoeba . i attacked w/ my 2 narco and ichorid, after blockers have been assigned, i then discarded my hand via phantasmagorian bringing down 2 bridges and 2 bloodghast. i then played my dakmor salvage to bring back my bloodghast to create more tokens once he attacks, i was able to win game 1 thanks to bridge from below. game 2- he played turn 1 graftdiggers cage, i was able to dredge out my lands and played them (total of 3 dakmors in play) but i cant kill him fast enough w/ golgari thugs and stinkweed imp, he won via omniscience bringing down griselbrand then draw 7 cards bringing down emrakul and the rest is history. round 3- i got good opening hand, he then played turn 2 show and tell he played griselbrand vs my kederekt leviathan, he draw 7 cards before returning but he got lands and cantrips . he returned my leviathan via echoing truth but he got no other answer for my zombies and ichorid. win!

round 6 vs RUG 2-0 =)

ended at 1st place after the swiss

top 8 game:

vs punishing maverick -> 2-1
i got good hands in game 1, was able to kill him on turn 2 via flayer and gravetroll w/o even attacking. game 2 he got all the hates he need to stop me (bojuka bog, teeg, jitte, etc, ). got no answer, i lose game 2. during round 3 i was shocked when he played enlightened tutor at the end of my turn (OMG im dead its wheel of sun and moon! NOOOOOO). luckily he revealed pithing needle???? (yey!). he then played it but i responded by playing streetwraith on my dredger. eventually he was able to play teeg and KOTR but i alrdy got a lot of zombies and recurring dudes in play. Win!

top 4 game:
vs reanimator -> 2-0

Finals:

VS URW miracle
quick win in game 1 via flayer. during round 2 he played 2 meddling mage naming dread return and cabal therapy, but was able to overrun him w/ zombies and recurring gang. Win.

here's my deklist

Manaless Dredge
by Kathlean Capote

Lands: 4
4 Dakmor Salvage

Creatures: 40
4 Golgari grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell
2 Flayer of the hatebound
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith

Others: 16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Gitaxian Probe

Sideboard: 15
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Sphinx of Steelwind
1 Kederekt Leviathan
1 Angel of despair
1 Terastodon
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Reverent Silence
1 Sickening Shoal
2 Soul Spike

as you can see i removed my 4 faerie macabre coz im not expecting to face any graveyard deck. i still cant find 2 copies of soul spike (i hope someone can send me those 2 for free hahahah)

some photos:
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/132339_10151087101976868_820159176_o.jpg
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/322894_10151087104771868_1429021474_o.jpg
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/340974_10151087097086868_186943565_o.jpg
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/267049_10151087096911868_1386186001_o.jpg
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/322894_10151087104771868_1429021474_o.jpg
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/201017_10151087086616868_96365797_o.jpg
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/240418_10151087099686868_439658688_o.jpg
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/240031_10151087103491868_1134774025_o.jpg
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/622644_10151087103866868_1931552500_o.jpg
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/326839_10151087083576868_672099492_o.jpg

Thanks for reading :tongue:

Cheers!


Congrats on the back to back win sir!:) Next time, let us other Dredge players win too ;) Haha

[rektareloaded]

I would definately mull that and timewalk myself.

i will definitely do the same. worst hand ever hahahah:laugh:

[slave]

kederekt leviathan for me... :laugh:

I never even thought of using Kederekt - I'll have to give it a go against aggro decks like goblins for sure - get rid of those pesky vials!

I'm honestly loving Gitaxian so much I wanna run it.
Against counter it's not so great of course, but having 8 Draw spells in the deck makes turn 2 much more consistent, and having two or more in hand can get a turn two or three win possibly.
BUT;
I'm guessin some of you don't run it because of counter, and the sheer lack of SB slots for the anti-hate plan if we run it?

[rektareloaded]

I never even thought of using Kederekt - I'll have to give it a go against aggro decks like goblins for sure - get rid of those pesky vials!

I'm honestly loving Gitaxian so much I wanna run it.
Against counter it's not so great of course, but having 8 Draw spells in the deck makes turn 2 much more consistent, and having two or more in hand can get a turn two or three win possibly.
BUT;
I'm guessin some of you don't run it because of counter, and the sheer lack of SB slots for the anti-hate plan if we run it?

i love gitaxian probe.. i dont think theyll counter it (well, most of them dont). they'll just let you see their hand before realizing it that the probe got draw a card lol

[rektareloaded]

Congrats on the back to back win sir!:) Next time, let us other Dredge players win too ;) Haha

thanks... i just got lucky .. see you in the next tournament mate

[Gocho]

Isn't Elesh Norn a better option vs Goblins and other Aggro decks?

Leviathan clean both tables and dies easily.

[rektareloaded]

Isn't Elesh Norn a better option vs Goblins and other Aggro decks?

Leviathan clean both tables and dies easily.

i agree... for creature based decks elesh is a better option than kederekt.

im only using the leviathan as an answer to omnitell or any show and tell variants :laugh:

or do the kederekt leviathan and terastodon combo, DR terastodon 1st hitting opponents land then DR kederekt leviathan then smile. most of you guys alrdy aware of it but i just want to share this anyway. :wink:

[sherko7]

I am a Quadlaser Dredge player and have recently tried playtesting this deck as I have the parts for it. I am currently using rektareloaded's list with a few minor changes (adding 2 Sphinx of the Lost Truths MD in place of the 4th Gitaxian Probe and 4th Dakmore Salvage). Anybody else having issues with Burn? I have tried Hollywood's list against Burn and I haven't won a single match (we played 4 best of 3's, match is 0-4, games about 3-8). Have not tried Burn using rektareloaded's list.

[blindspotxxx]

I am a Quadlaser Dredge player and have recently tried playtesting this deck as I have the parts for it. I am currently using rektareloaded's list with a few minor changes (adding 2 Sphinx of the Lost Truths MD in place of the 4th Gitaxian Probe and 4th Dakmore Salvage). Anybody else having issues with Burn? I have tried Hollywood's list against Burn and I haven't won a single match (we played 4 best of 3's, match is 0-4, games about 3-8). Have not tried Burn using rektareloaded's list.

I have beaten burn and storm with hollywood's list lol I think I'm extremely lucky at the moment

[DarkJester]

In general I would ignore this match-up, it may be a coinflip. But if it should be played often in your meta and you have issues with them I would try Ancestors Chosen or Iona... but Griselbrand is enough most of the time. Maybe Sphinx of the Steel Wind?

[rektareloaded]

for me ill choose iona and sphinx of steelwind as my DR target in round 2.

[Michael Keller]

I don't see how any of you are having trouble against a linear deck like Burn, where really the only thing you need to do is strip their hand with Therapy, reanimate a Griselbrand or attack them out. Either you're playing it wrong or you're not paying attention to detail. Burn stuck on lands and bad sorceries is like ringing the dinner bell: you just don't lose to it unless your opponents are extremely lucky. It's really that simple.

It really isn't a tough match; I don't think I've ever lost a round to Burn. Burn is a turn three combo deck at best; we're easily turn two. And if it's not turn two, it's at minimum a thrashing to their hand.

[(nameless one)]

Hey Hollywood,

Has there been any changes to your list such as any inclusions of Call of the Netherworld?

[Michael Keller]

Nope. I'm running the two Flayer and three Griselbrand, but aside from that nothing else.

[HokusSchmokus]

I don't see how any of you are having trouble against a linear deck like Burn, where really the only thing you need to do is strip their hand with Therapy, reanimate a Griselbrand or attack them out. Either you're playing it wrong or you're not paying attention to detail. Burn stuck on lands and bad sorceries is like ringing the dinner bell: you just don't lose to it unless your opponents are extremely lucky. It's really that simple.

It really isn't a tough match; I don't think I've ever lost a round to Burn. Burn is a turn three combo deck at best; we're easily turn two. And if it's not turn two, it's at minimum a thrashing to their hand.

It's really kind of strange. Maybe always on the play? But still, we are way faster than burn, where 1-2 correct Therapies almost always wins on the spot, as they have no carddraw. Also, a huge flying lifelinker should do some work.

[P-E]

Testing the deck for some weeks now ^^

it's amazing vs tier 1 decks!!
i love playing against RUG , uw and mav haha

thanks hollywood

at least the deck gets some reward
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/24983-Eternal-Europe-Surviving-In-The-Age-Of-Miracles.html

i'll switch from quad to manaless i think even less interaction with opponent (that and the fact i poorly lost to moat with quad haha)

what's the point of view of german ichorid players HokusSchmokus ? i find it better placed in current meta , but we'll see if deathrite shaman and rest in peace will see a lot of play in legacy

[Gocho]

It really isn't a tough match; I don't think I've ever lost a round to Burn. Burn is a turn three combo deck at best; we're easily turn two. And if it's not turn two, it's at minimum a thrashing to their hand.

I'm testing the deck and never win at T2.

At the best, I discard Grave-troll at T1, SW EOT, return some critter at upkeep and keep dredging T2. I get a good advantage, but don't win T2. You must be very lucky to get Griselbrand + Dread Return + 3 creatures at T2.

[teonsw]

Gocho, I at first didn't think it was possible either to get turn two kills. Until last night the fastest I had ended a game was turn 3. Then last night while playing against aggro loam I ended the game on turn 2 a few times. On a side note I also played against elves last night that ran death rite shaman and cabal therapy starting without phantsmagorian or street wraith ended up not being able to get off the ground while he could just combo out. What is the best way to deal with turn 1 death rite? Without the most optimal hand.

[kwis]

Made a critical mistake playing against burn the other day. Didn't help that the guy was incredibly lucky either.

Needless to say I'm probably always naming Fireblast with blind Therapy in the future. I was 1 turn away from winning because for whatever reason I named a bolt card, only to tank and alternative bolt and die to blast.

[P-E]

On a side note I also played against elves last night that ran death rite shaman and cabal therapy starting without phantsmagorian or street wraith ended up not being able to get off the ground while he could just combo out. What is the best way to deal with turn 1 death rite? Without the most optimal hand.

you have crea removal with contagion and shoal which can slow him

[rektareloaded]

turn 2 win is possible.. its the 1st time ive done it facing maverick in the top 8 match.


for the burn topic i sometimes lose to burn too. its just like facing UR delver.. its always the top card of opponents library who will decide the match coz normally we ended both at down to 3 life points. its like if he get a bolt or any 3 damage spell he win, if not i win. :tongue:

[sherko7]

I have not done any T2 kills with the list, but I think you'd have to be pretty lucky. Also, it seems Street Wraith on your opening hand is a must if you wanna win T2-3. I might be playing this wrong, or I may have been too comfortable with Quadlaser. I think this deck struggles with winning fast, unlike Quadlaser that consistently wins T2 while stripping your opponent's hand T1 even after a mull to 5.

I am not sure, but in my opinion Dryad Arbor's place is in the SB. I am liking rektareloaded's list as G1 it is quite consistent, and makes your post boarding plans easier. Of course, SB space is what suffers but that's a different story.

I've figured out that boarding in hate-hate isn't really necessary G2 if you win G1. Firstly, boarding in those Nature Claims/Reverent Silence isn't going to help if your opponent runs Surgical Extractions. Manaless wins against Surgical Extractions (so does Quadlaser albeit a bit tighter). Might as well gamble G2 and try to outrace him. Remember, he still needs to mull for hate. If he plays Leyline turn 0, then too bad for us. Play it out a bit and try to see if he still has other hate up his sleeves then go to G3. This has been consistently working for me, as I hate drawing into dead cards post board. Quadlaser or Manaless, Dredge is built to win with speed. Slowdredging of course works, but against other decks, it isn't literally "slow".

I still think Quadlaser plays the meta out better. But I will keep playtesting this...

I could be doing it wrong after all :wink:

[Gocho]

I was doing this at MTGO with Hollywood's list.

I always won game 1, didn't board nature's claim game 2 because the list can race Surgical and Tormod's or Relic, only to face T1 Leyline (gobbos) and T1 Cage (GW Zenith) or T2 win (ANT and Reanimator).

So, I always board claims now. And change T3 if I lose. I know that it can be dead card, but without phantasmagorian, you get a lot of dead cards in your hand anyway.

I think that I'll try the bloodghast list because it can play with cage on board and must race the other hate too.

[rektareloaded]

we have another tournament tomorrow here in our country. wish us (fellow dredge players) luck .

w/ rtr being legal to play alrdy. i might add some enchantment hate in my SB. im expecting people to play RIP since its still new.

[slave]

I'm testing the deck and never win at T2.

Yeah a turn 2 win can be fairly rare - but your opponent can help you along a fair bit too though. Some cards like Show and Tell with a Grisel in hand can be great if you survive til your next turn.:wink:

Some of this comes with running certain cards.
Running Gitaxian Probe increases the chances of a turn 2 go-nuts, especially if you also have a Wraith in hand to use on your T1 end step.
I'm now running Probe aswell, just to double my "Wraith count";
Knowing whether our opponent has a Tormod's Crypt in hand ready and waiting.........:eek:.

[rektareloaded]

didnt made it to the top 4.

lessons learned:

deathrite shaman - can lock you up if you dont have a removal or streetwraith

facing a miracle in postboarding is really a headache, specially when they're playing graftdiggers cage in turn 1 and a rest in peace in turn 2 (H&*y S&#t?!) and a bunch of "counterspell" cards in hand

@sherko
congrats for taking home an izzet and golgari duel deck!

[Kich867]

you have crea removal with contagion and shoal which can slow him

From the elf players perspective (I was the one playtesting a G/B elves list) this matchup seems grossly in our favor. Deathrite Shaman and Cabal Therapy are insanely strong together, and maybe I just drew the stone cold nuts every game, but a resolved Deathrite Shaman on turn 1 typically loses you the game. Unless you have contagion/shoal and phantasmagorian in hand in order to kill it and dredge heavily the next turn.

Contagion is unfortunately unable to 2-for-1 in this situation since the shaman is a 1/2. Any game that I got him online and he didn't have a perfect hand to handle the situation, he would lose. Actually the one game I believe he did, but I cleared the way with a turn 1 cabal therapy hitting his contagion, which blanked his ability to discard a dredger, which pretty much made it the same as playing Deathrite on turn 1.

I think the correct strategy to playing against Deathrite Shaman is to aim for a discarded phantasmagorian, wait an entire turn cycle, and then discard a dredger with another dredger in hand--you either need to kill it after you discard phantasmagorian or present too many targets for it to stop your dredge.

[sherko7]

didnt made it to the top 4.

lessons learned:

deathrite shaman - can lock you up if you dont have a removal or streetwraith

facing a miracle in postboarding is really a headache, specially when they're playing graftdiggers cage in turn 1 and a rest in peace in turn 2 (H&*y S&#t?!) and a bunch of "counterspell" cards in hand

@sherko
congrats for taking home an izzet and golgari duel deck!

Thanks!:) At least my 2-2-1 was not for nothing... Got a Blood Crypt on the pack I won as well yay!

I might be trying the Manaless build next tourney, especially if Miracles are still prevalent. Seems against them, Manaless trumps Quadlaser.

Gitaxian Probe also seems hard to cut, it helps the deck against faster matchups.

Off topic: Been playing with the IvG decks, we took 15-30 minutes per game LOL.
:laugh:

[rektareloaded]

i think ill include 4 chancellor of the annex next time in my SB just to delay the impending disaster :tongue:

[teonsw]

This might be a simple answer, but how do we deal with a turn 2 teeg while playing maverick? Since we cannot use shoal or contagion against him. Is there anyway besides the use of our re-occurring beaters such as ichorid, shadow,and our zombies from bridge? Or would this be the only way while we hope for no surgical extraction?

[slave]

This might be a simple answer, but how do we deal with a turn 2 teeg while playing maverick? Since we cannot use shoal or contagion against him. Is there anyway besides the use of our re-occurring beaters such as ichorid, shadow,and our zombies from bridge? Or would this be the only way while we hope for no surgical extraction?

Surgical Extraction isn't that bad against us - we have plenty of ways to play around that if we don't Cabal Therapy it first, although it can be pretty uphill against Mav should they take away our bridges.
Bear in mind that Contagion is an instant too. Should they cast Surgical, we can immediately use Contagion on one of their weenies to remove our Bridges from the graveyard, thereby negating Surg.
Although Teeg makes this play null.

I've never seen a list running more than 1 or 2 Teeg's. So beat their face.
I'd be more concerned about Mav lists running Rest in Peace than Teeg to be honest.

[rektareloaded]

Surgical Extraction isn't that bad against us - we have plenty of ways to play around that if we don't Cabal Therapy it first, although it can be pretty uphill against Mav should they take away our bridges.
Bear in mind that Contagion is an instant too. Should they cast Surgical, we can immediately use Contagion on one of their weenies to remove our Bridges from the graveyard, thereby negating Surg.
Although Teeg makes this play null.

I've never seen a list running more than 1 or 2 Teeg's. So beat their face.
I'd be more concerned about Mav lists running Rest in Peace than Teeg to be honest.

i believe that mavs will not use rest in peace

[slave]

You're dead right if we're talking about maindeck.

Whether we see some players using a few in the sideboard we'll have to wait and see.
RE: MAV, I find most people playing Scavenging Ooze can slow us down, but doesn't stop us if we race them.
Seeing how a 2nd turn RiP just outright shuts down Reanimiator & Dredge completely, and to a lesser extent some Storm variants that use cards like Past in Flames, Ill-Gotten Gains etc., I'm sure we'll see it in some lists.
I just hope it's not too common!!

[rektareloaded]

yeah its a headache if they start playing combinations of cage and RIP.

as for the mav topic. most of the mav players that i know of here in our country will not play RIP in SB. 1 reason is that their KOTR will stay as 2/2 forever. for punishing build, no more punishing fire for them. they prefer wheel of sun and moon instead

[slave]

.....most of the mav players that i know of here in our country will not play RIP in SB. 1 reason is that their KOTR will stay as 2/2 forever.

You're probably right.
But considering it would still be an auto win against Reanimator & Dredge decks should they not be able to deal with it, even with just their weenies attacking us.

Which country are you in rektareloaded, if you don't mind me asking?

[P-E]

Slave> RiP is just a bad Leyline of the Void that comes turn 2. RiP doesn't stop Reanimator by the way post board all Rea Decks have Show&Tell and bounce.

If we can fight leyline with reverent silence and claim ,we can fight RiP.

[rektareloaded]

Which country are you in rektareloaded, if you don't mind me asking?

I'm from the land of Manny Pacquiao... Philippines!

the problem is the one who will play RIP is a miracle player and our reverent silence can be countered lol.

[Michael Keller]

Slave> RiP is just a bad Leyline of the Void that comes turn 2. RiP doesn't stop Reanimator by the way post board all Rea Decks have Show&Tell and bounce.

If we can fight leyline with reverent silence and claim ,we can fight RiP.

You're forgetting one fundamental difference here: Rest in Peace exiles all graveyards when it enters the battlefield and is less intensive to cast in the first few turns. Leyline has to be in a player's hand turn zero to be effective, otherwise it's a dead card. Rest in Peace is also a good top-deck, which in turn means you needs to play smart and accordingly.

I agree that Silence and Claim helps in the fight against those cards, but be careful you don't overextend into a blowout. You should, however, play to win and not to lose.

I know it was mentioned a while back, but Noxious Revival might necessitate some testing if things get out of hand, which I don't believe they will. Enlightened Tutor strategies are everwhere right now - and that can be bad for Manaless. Rest decks will see slight to fringe play, and it's obvious it's a niche card that didn't even make a very big impact in its debut. It's even worse in a Maverick shell.

[Karbunkelsopp]

Hi!

Im kind of new to this deck and as such im trying to find my very own way of breaking the game... :wink:

What are your opinions on:
1: using Bloodghast and Dakmor Salvage together with Edge of Autumn? With Dakmor in play an Edge basically becomes "Tap Dakmor salvage: put all Bloodghasts in your graveyard into play and dredge 2". And you can even use the mana from dakmor first if you want to...

2: Using a dedicated reanimate pack of either 4 Bladewing the risen or 4 Sharuum the hegemon. With 2 of the same legend in your graveyard and at least one Bridge from below you can get an "infinite" number of zombies in play, just reanimate one, put the other into play via trigger from first, legend rule says die, put trigger from second on stack, rinse and repeat. Until you get bored :rolleyes:.

Last, thanks to all for a great thread!

[slave]

It's a nice deck to get into!

1. Edge of Autumn is very conditional, and room is already pretty tight in the deck.
Dakmor salvage and Bloodghast are already fairly conditonal for this deck, but don't help against hate at all. Look to Hollywoods list for a deck that can fight through hate.
If you're looking for free draw spells outside Wraith & Gitaxian Probe that work with this deck well - let us know when you find 'em! :smile:

2. True - that would be an infinite number of zombies potentially.
As long as your opponent doesn't have an Echoing truth/Pyroclasm etc., you'd be definitely killing them that turn if you get through another Dread Return for Flame-Kin Zealot.

[Que]

Played Hollywood's list at an SCG IQ. Went 2-2 drop. I started 2-0 beating Bant and U/W Miracles which I was expecting with such a deck. Then proceeded to drop the next two rounds to Burn which got me game 1 because I didn't open on dredger and it took 4 turns before I found one and was just dead. G2 hand was slow dredge and he did was burn does and killed me turn 4. T1 Bolt, T2 Flame Rift, T3 Bot, Chain, Spike, T4 Rift .... lol

Round 3 lost to combo elves. Turn 1 elf, My turn 1 discard, Turn 2 more elves, my turn 2 dredge, T3 Glimpse game over...

Its my first outing with the deck. It did beat the decks it was supposed to though so thats good. I think it will suffer against faster combo unless you have extra gas. and for the most part I felt a slave to my hand. Regardless of what was in it I felt I had to keep it as long as it had a dregdger because afterall thats our whole engine. the end step. Every mulligan is a timewalk.

Just my little blurbs. I still think the deck is rad and has great recursive creatures to be abused. Perhaps some type of hybrid list between Mana and manaless needs to be heralded again. :U

[slave]

...for the most part I felt a slave to my hand.

Yeah I felt that way a little too - I've been running GItaxian Probe for that reason.
Running it does however make sideboarding a bit tricker.

I'm been running the standard core cards;
IN: Gitaxian Probe & Dryad Arbor.
NO: Bloodghast, Dakmor Salvage or Contagion/Shoal.
Running Arbor MD has made it easier for sideboarding game 2, however most of the time I'm not missing Contagion/Shoal, unless I encounter stuff like Scavenging Ooze etc.

[Calado]

What to do against fast decks? Btw, I'm facing Show and Tell too much, and it looks like that waiting for turn 3 to cast Therapy is too late.
Any tips?

[rektareloaded]

What to do against fast decks? Btw, I'm facing Show and Tell too much, and it looks like that waiting for turn 3 to cast Therapy is too late.
Any tips?

try to win your game 1 if possible
in game 2 board in all your DR targets (ex. kederekt leviathan, angel of despair, teratodon, griselbrand, iona)

[slave]

try to win your game 1 if possible
in game 2 board in all your DR targets (ex. kederekt leviathan, angel of despair, teratodon, griselbrand, iona)

I have the same problem - having lots of threats that can "Enters the battlefield" like Angel of Despair REALLY helps here, but does leave you in no-mans land against hate.
Depends whether you wanna have a sideboard devoted just to this matchup.
How often do you encounter it, compared to say Mav or Miracles?

BTW;
I've been testing Bladewing the Risen as 4-of with 3 Grisel for funzies.
In one game I tested against my friends' SnT deck. He drops Emrakul, saying "Annihilation Time!!", then I drop Bladewing (one in GY with BfB) to give me 99 zombies.
He saw the funny side.... :laugh:

[NecroYawgmoth]

Well, Bladewing is defenite "Danger of cool things".

I'd rather play a 4th Griselbrand than this one. That are 4 outs to S&T which lets you win. You can add an Angel, if you want 5, but 4 Grisels seem more than enough.

He drops Emrakul, at end of his turn you activate Griselbrand, and just win. I see no need for fancy stuff like Bladewing. Why would you play other targets than Griselbrand, Angel, Elesh, Iona or Flayer anyways?

[slave]

Why would you play other targets than Griselbrand, Angel, Elesh, Iona or Flayer anyways?

Well you wouldn't competitively - we were just having fun.
Grisel nd Flayer are my fave's for sure.
Elesh & Iona are great SB for certain matchups, but I find it hard to include them with all the ench/art hate we need to pack in.

[rektareloaded]

any match up in this "time of miracles". hopefully more match ups will be posted so that we can learn something new

[Michael Keller]

If I do decide to play Manaless at the NELC at Jupiter Games again this weekend, I'll have an updated list ready to go.

[jjflipped]

Id be very interested to see this update Hollywood.

[teonsw]

I am currently running Hollywood's list, and i was debating pulling out the removal 2 contagions and 1 shoal for 3 probes. Has anyone tried this? Or does removing our removal spells cripple us against certain match ups?

[Michael Keller]

I am currently running Hollywood's list, and i was debating pulling out the removal 2 contagions and 1 shoal for 3 probes. Has anyone tried this? Or does removing our removal spells cripple us against certain match ups?

With Deathrite Shaman and Dryad Militant coming out of the gates, that would probably be a mistake (currently).

[teonsw]

I completely forgot about dryad militant. I've played against deathrite and it seems as if you can race it with street wraith and probe, but you are correct Dryad Militant is going to be an issue without spot removal.

[Michael Keller]

I completely forgot about dryad militant. I've played against deathrite and it seems as if you can race it with street wraith and probe, but you are correct Dryad Militant is going to be an issue without spot removal.

Yeah. It just seems tacky losing to a 2/1 creature for one mana. It's actually kind of humiliating, which is why I want to keep answers in for that.

[teonsw]

Knowing they are playing Dryad Militant would you mull to contagion? Only due to the fact that if we don't get it in our starting hand, the chances we can use it during the game are slim to none.

[slave]

With Deathrite Shaman and Dryad Militant coming out of the gates, that (playing without removal) would probably be a mistake (currently).

I agree.

But is Dryad Militant really that bad?
We've got only Therapy & Dread Return that it cares about, and we can otherwise still get our creature beats goin, unless they don't force us to suck on a Leyline or Rest in Peace or whatever we can't answer in game one. Therapy n DR are a big part of us winning, but our means of achieving the win is left otherwise uneffected, and that's 90% of the deck.
So I don't know...it would depend on the rest of their deck strategy whether I would give them a TimeWalk or just try and play through it.

Deathrite Shaman however, gives me the SHITS!
That little creature hosed me over the wknd in two seperate matches - seems a few decks have taken up playing it.
I'm still not too versed with the names of all the decks out there, but I'm certain one of them was NicFit or some version of Rock.
So against that deck - Game1, I won the roll, elected to draw (duh). They played Deathrite.
I had no removal or Wraith in hand, so I discarded a dredger as per normal.....he proceeded to remove my dredger's turn, after turn, after turn.
7 turns later they won.
....kinda funny it took him 7 turns to kill a player without a single permanent on the board.
Game2, I drew an almost perfect 7 with trolls, creature removal, Probe and a wraith. He played Leyline. :mad:

A question I have for all of you playing this deck;
Stoneforge Mystic
Would you use removal on it?
Personally, I don't see a reason to, as chances are the opponent already has a Jitte in hand for their next turn, as Jitte is a great weapon against us.
But I'd like to see what everyone else here thinks, considering other targets like Batterskull etc.
....And whilst I'm on the subject of using removal - what are everyone's MUST ANSWER targets to use removal for?

[rektareloaded]

I agree.

But is Dryad Militant really that bad?
We've got only Therapy & Dread Return that it cares about, and we can otherwise still get our creature beats goin, unless they don't force us to suck on a Leyline or Rest in Peace or whatever we can't answer in game one. Therapy n DR are a big part of us winning, but our means of achieving the win is left otherwise uneffected, and that's 90% of the deck.
So I don't know...it would depend on the rest of their deck strategy whether I would give them a TimeWalk or just try and play through it.

Deathrite Shaman however, gives me the SHITS!
That little creature hosed me over the wknd in two seperate matches - seems a few decks have taken up playing it.
I'm still not too versed with the names of all the decks out there, but I'm certain one of them was NicFit or some version of Rock.
So against that deck - Game1, I won the roll, elected to draw (duh). They played Deathrite.
I had no removal or Wraith in hand, so I discarded a dredger as per normal.....he proceeded to remove my dredger's turn, after turn, after turn.
7 turns later they won.
....kinda funny it took him 7 turns to kill a player without a single permanent on the board.
Game2, I drew an almost perfect 7 with trolls, creature removal, Probe and a wraith. He played Leyline. :mad:

A question I have for all of you playing this deck;
Stoneforge Mystic
Would you use removal on it?
Personally, I don't see a reason to, as chances are the opponent already has a Jitte in hand for their next turn, as Jitte is a great weapon against us.
But I'd like to see what everyone else here thinks, considering other targets like Batterskull etc.
....And whilst I'm on the subject of using removal - what are everyone's MUST ANSWER targets to use removal for?



dont be afraid of stoneforge mystic.. cabal therapy is their worst nightmare :tongue:

[Michael Keller]

Stoneforge Mystic is nothing more than a Squire against Manaless Dredge. Even if an opponent somehow found a way to actually drop a Batterskull or Jitte onto the battlefield, it isn't going to protect them from an onslaught of attackers - even without Bridge from Below (assuming they have connected with Jitte equipped to something). Subsequently, it isn't going to save them from a Flayer kill - which would be an abitrary amount of damage paired with Troll.

And I wouldn't mull into Contagion; I would just go with my seven and play it out. Worse comes to worst, you just draw into removal for it. However, I don't think it will be that big of a deal in the format and we're more apt to run into Rest in Peace because of R2R's recent release.

Aside from that, pretty standard procedure how we move forward.

[slave]

....I don't think it will be that big of a deal in the format and we're more apt to run into Rest in Peace because of R2R's recent release.

Because I've been playing this deck a bit lately, a friend of mine has started playtesting a RiP/Helm combo deck. I hope we don't ever get grouped together!!

Yeah really, the main issue I have is cards like Relic of Progenitus.
At least we get to dredge once with Deathrite provided we're on the draw. I don't like it, but as long as we get more than one dredger in our first dredge we have a chance.
The last couple of meets I've run with only four creature removal cards in the sideboard, and those were the only matches where I wish I'd drawn them, the rest of the time I only wanted enchantment/artifact removal.

There are plenty of annoying creatures, like Mother of Runes, Delver etc. but I wouldn't consider them worth removing.
Goblin Lackey is one I'm not sure about.
One of my matchups against Goblins, I had lackey go stupid.
Lackey hit, brought out a Ringleader - and then another Ringleader - and then a Krenko!
He attacked me once and played/cycled Gempalm for the win on turn 3.
I still won 2-1 against the small green ones, but it was very close in both games I won.
In both of those winning games, I found Griselbrand trouble, as I couldn't just draw 7 immediately without killing myself.
I may try going back to Sphinx against Aggro/Burn matchups, even though I know Grisel is game when it lands - I'm just gonna test it out a bit more.

There are plenty of artifacts and enchantments we MUST answer or we're scooping, but I'm still curious;
What creatures do you guys consider MUST answer's?

[Final Fortune]

Stoneforge Mystic is nothing more than a Squire against Manaless Dredge. Even if an opponent somehow found a way to actually drop a Batterskull or Jitte onto the battlefield, it isn't going to protect them from an onslaught of attackers - even without Bridge from Below (assuming they have connected with Jitte equipped to something). Subsequently, it isn't going to save them from a Flayer kill - which would be an abitrary amount of damage paired with Troll.

And I wouldn't mull into Contagion; I would just go with my seven and play it out. Worse comes to worst, you just draw into removal for it. However, I don't think it will be that big of a deal in the format and we're more apt to run into Rest in Peace because of R2R's recent release.

Aside from that, pretty standard procedure how we move forward.

I'm not convinced Manaless Dredge is a good metagame call right now, Deathrite Shaman is the real deal and having to either MD or SB 8 Contagion and Death Shoal effects is getting to the point where soft counters to Dredge like Deathrite Shaman and Relic of Progentius are becoming hard locks to Manaless Dredge that completely distort your SB and your MD for "answer their hate or lose" cards that take advantage of Manaless Dredge's reliance on the end step as opposed to Dredge's reliance on the graveyard.

When your deck loses to Elves, and it does, it's probably time to go back to playing lands and Firestorm. Manaless Dredge just isn't providing any real tactical or strategic benefits to the Dredge archetype right now, and being the absolute worst version of archetype vs combo, giving the opponent an additional card game 2 in order to Dredge and having an additional exploit vs your discard mechanic is too much ground to surrender just for the distinction of not tapping lands to cast spells.

[Michael Keller]

Well, I'm 2-0 with Manaless right now at Jupiter's Dual

Land event. That works for me.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Blah.

I'm convinced you only come to The Soruce to troll people.

@Hollywood: Nice rips against Gobbos during game three.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Well, I'm 2-0 with Manaless right now at Jupiter's Dual

Land event. That works for me.

Can't wait to see your updated list. =)

Beat them all, man... good luck

[(nameless one)]

Hey Hollywood, we're you the feature match on the stream vs. Goblins?

If thats you, where did you get your sleeves? They look classy.

[Michael Keller]

That was me...thanks!

I'm 3-1 currently.

[Michael Keller]

I'm not convinced Manaless Dredge is a good metagame call right now, Deathrite Shaman is the real deal and having to either MD or SB 8 Contagion and Death Shoal effects is getting to the point where soft counters to Dredge like Deathrite Shaman and Relic of Progentius are becoming hard locks to Manaless Dredge that completely distort your SB and your MD for "answer their hate or lose" cards that take advantage of Manaless Dredge's reliance on the end step as opposed to Dredge's reliance on the graveyard.

When your deck loses to Elves, and it does, it's probably time to go bacAk to playing lands and Firestorm. Mless Dredge just isn'providing any real tactical or strategic benefits to Dredge archetype right now, and being the absolute worst version of archetype vs combo, giving the opponent an additional card game 2 in order to Dredge and having an additional exploit vs your discard mechanic is too much ground to surrender just for the distinction of not tapping lands to cast spells.

Aaaand made Top 8.

Again.

And for what it's worth...I beat Deathrite Shaman, Leyline and Surgical.

[(nameless one)]

Looking forward to the report already.

Ps. Add your sideboard options for g2-3 for each match. That would be greatly appreciated. Cheers!

[Michael Keller]

Just made Top 4. Waiting for opponents to finish.

[rektareloaded]

wow congrats hollywood.


on my end only made it to top 3 in a minitournament (total of 18 players) 4-1-0

round 1 vs UR delver = 2-0
round 2 vs junk = 0-2 -> 1st turn duress, 2nd turn thoughtseize, 2 timewalks lol. on game 2 i got street wraith in hand but he played extirpate (OMG :eek: )
round 3 vs nicfit = 2-1
round 4 vs RUG = 2-0
round 5 vs Goblins = 2-0

i think its effective if you will wait what SB they'll bring in game 2.


goodluck hollywood!

[rektareloaded]

on the other hand.. you just have to trust your deck if this deck works for you then play it, if not then go back to the traditional ledless or led dredge. a good friend of mine (RUG player) told me that he nver lose to LED/Ledless versions, if he count it right he said its like 12-0 now but vs manaless its 1-7 alrdy (thats me :laugh: ).

all in all, just believe in yourself. cheers!


@hollywood

you got a good hand vs bant if not for that tormods crypt . S%#*t happens. still congratulations :smile:

[sherko7]

Playing around with a Manaless list with 4 LED and 3 Looting. Its a bit more explosive, at the cost of your opponent's counter suite going live. Still though, might be worth toying around with. Also trying out Soul of the Harvest MD. It wins the turn after you DR it, a bit pointless to play over Griselbrand but 1) I don't have Griselbrands yet, 2) I've tried 2 Sphinx and it ain't really my style, 3) Soul of the Harvest is cutesy. :tongue:

[Michael Keller]

Took home a set of Tropical Islands for my troubles. There were I believe close to seventy (70) players in this event. I'll be sure to write up a report.

And for the record: I had Ali from Cairo in my sideboard just for shits and giggles.

[Final Fortune]

Aaaand made Top 8.

Again.

And for what it's worth...I beat Deathrite Shaman, Leyline and Surgical.

I never said it was impossible, I said I don't see the point in playing a deck less equipped to deal with Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage, more vulnerable to Relic of Progentius and Deathrite Shaman and that gets raced by every other combo deck in the format and gives the opponent a free card game 2. What is it about Manaless Dredge that makes it worth playing over other Dredge variants, because being able to win with it regardless isn't really an argument - altho' I understand the justification.

[ykpon]

Hollywood, what do you think about cutting Flayers and one-two other cards for 3-4 md Angels of Despair? Unlike Flayer, they technically don't win the game right after entering the battlefield, but:

1) they make any SnT matchup awesome
2) they are blacker than Flayers
3) we still can win through things like Ensnaring Bridge, but now also through Solitary Confinement or Glacial Chasm (not that these cards are popular novadays..)

So besides mirror (which is less popular than SnT decks in my meta), are there any matches where Flayer is really better than Angel?

[Kich867]

I never said it was impossible, I said I don't see the point in playing a deck less equipped to deal with Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage, more vulnerable to Relic of Progentius and Deathrite Shaman and that gets raced by every other combo deck in the format and gives the opponent a free card game 2. What is it about Manaless Dredge that makes it worth playing over other Dredge variants, because being able to win with it regardless isn't really an argument - altho' I understand the justification.

I went to jupiter with a friend of mine who was also playing manaless dredge. I watched him fight through a lot of hate. Relics and crypts aren't enough to beat the deck, leyline can be tough but that's a serious commitment to fighting graveyard decks--mulling to oblivion to find it could lose you the game as it is and you're certainly not hitting four land--and as if LED dredge is any better equipped to handle the card. It's the same token of "You need to have your answer in your opener or in the next few cards". I guess you can mulligan to shit hoping you find an assortment of: land dredger answer draw, but that doesn't sound that exciting to me.

The more and more I watch the deck the more it seems like a far more consistent dredge deck. Sometimes speed isn't the only thing worth looking at.

[Final Fortune]

I went to jupiter with a friend of mine who was also playing manaless dredge. I watched him fight through a lot of hate. Relics and crypts aren't enough to beat the deck, leyline can be tough but that's a serious commitment to fighting graveyard decks--mulling to oblivion to find it could lose you the game as it is and you're certainly not hitting four land--and as if LED dredge is any better equipped to handle the card. It's the same token of "You need to have your answer in your opener or in the next few cards". I guess you can mulligan to shit hoping you find an assortment of: land dredger answer draw, but that doesn't sound that exciting to me.

The more and more I watch the deck the more it seems like a far more consistent dredge deck. Sometimes speed isn't the only thing worth looking at.

Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt are not comparable, if they play Relic of Progentius turn 1 then it hard locks you out of the game with its secondary ability.

Yes Mana Dredge is better equipped to address Leyline of the Void than Manaless Dredge, because you have anywhere from 4 to 9 more mana sources for your removal spell and 8 cantrips to find said removal spell. I'm not saying Leyline of the Void is necessarily the main concern regarding graveyard hate, personally I wouldn't invest any SB answers against it over Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze, but the trade off in being a slower Dredge deck that's more vulnerable to Leyline of the Void, Grafdigger's Cage, Relic of Progenitus, Deathrite Shaman and Scavening Ooze in favor of being more resilient to Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt isn't a straight forward call.

The deck does a good job vs Snapcaster and Surgical Extractions, but when the metagame broadens its hate to include cards that are significantly stronger vs you than vs Mana Dredge or specifies its hate to "answer me or loss" cards like Leyline of the Void, Grafdigger's Cage or Rest in Peace the lack of speed and one dimentional discard outlet are going to come back to haunt you.

I feel like the deck in its current form is just an exploit vs all of the hate in the format becomming skewed towards Surgical Extraction (or Tormod's Crypt)

[NecroYawgmoth]

Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt are not comparable, if they play Relic of Progentius turn 1 then it hard locks you out of the game with its secondary ability.


Why does it hardlock you out of the game? You know that no one gets priority in the cleanup step? You just need to be prepared and know how to fight it. It slows you down 1-2 turns, but the same does Tormod's Crypt. Here are some examples how to play around it:


Street Wraith:
They open with Relic, you DDD a Dredger. They can't use Relic in that turn. If they use it in their turn you can cycle a Street Wraith in response, and Dredge cards, then you can exile whatever you want. They are forced to use the Relic to stop you, in that case, you start DDDing next turn again.

Gitaxian Probe:
DDD a card. They will most likely use Relic on it during their or our next turn. This will tap the Relic. on your turn, you will play a Probe and draw a card. At the end of your turn you DDD a dredger. If they use the relic, you exile the Probe.

Baubles:
If many players play Relics, you could always Play Urza's / Mishra's Bauble in the Sideboard.
You draw to 8 cards, play a Bauble, pass the turn. Next turn you DDD a dredger, if they use the tap-ability you sacrifice the Bauble in response and exile the Bauble. If they sacrifice the Relic you have 9 handcards at your next endstep and can DDD 2 cards in the next turn which will directly make you immune to the next Relic.

[nakazkirai]

Hollywood, what do you think about cutting Flayers and one-two other cards for 3-4 md Angels of Despair? Unlike Flayer, they technically don't win the game right after entering the battlefield, but:

1) they make any SnT matchup awesome
2) they are blacker than Flayers
3) we still can win through things like Ensnaring Bridge, but now also through Solitary Confinement or Glacial Chasm (not that these cards are popular novadays..)

So besides mirror (which is less popular than SnT decks in my meta), are there any matches where Flayer is really better than Angel?

Flayer is better because you can win against lock cards like Ensnaring Bridge, Moat or things like that just by reanimating Flayer and just one Golgari Grave Troll. The only deck that uses solitary confinement is enchantress so sidedeck can deal with it.

[Final Fortune]

Why does it hardlock you out of the game? You know that no one gets priority in the cleanup step? You just need to be prepared and know how to fight it. It slows you down 1-2 turns, but the same does Tormod's Crypt. Here are some examples how to play around it:


Street Wraith:
They open with Relic, you DDD a Dredger. They can't use Relic in that turn. If they use it in their turn you can cycle a Street Wraith in response, and Dredge cards, then you can exile whatever you want. They are forced to use the Relic to stop you, in that case, you start DDDing next turn again.

Gitaxian Probe:
DDD a card. They will most likely use Relic on it during their or our next turn. This will tap the Relic. on your turn, you will play a Probe and draw a card. At the end of your turn you DDD a dredger. If they use the relic, you exile the Probe.

Baubles:
If many players play Relics, you could always Play Urza's / Mishra's Bauble in the Sideboard.
You draw to 8 cards, play a Bauble, pass the turn. Next turn you DDD a dredger, if they use the tap-ability you sacrifice the Bauble in response and exile the Bauble. If they sacrifice the Relic you have 9 handcards at your next endstep and can DDD 2 cards in the next turn which will directly make you immune to the next Relic.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something,

Player 1: Land, Relic of Progenitus
Player 2: Draw a card, discard a Dredger
Player 1: Taps Relic of Progenitus to RFG the Dredger.

Without a Phantasmagorian to protect the Dredge from the secondary ability, but play into the primary ability, a pre-emptive Gitaxian Probe on Player 2's Turn 1 or a reactive Streetwraith that's GG.

The deck has a resilience vs Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt based on its threat density by a weakness vs Relic of Progenitus and Deathrite Shaman based on its over reliance on your discard phase. And yes, while I understand there are possible outs to a Relic of Progenitus lock, that doesn't mean giving Relic of Progenitus additional EV is acceptable.

So, in the event Deathrite Shaman gains traction or Relic of Progenitus makes a come back, Manaless Dredge is going to have serious problems. Which makes me conclude that Manaless Dredge is an exploit vs linear graveyard hate i.e. Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt effects and if Goblins, for example, decided to SB 4 Relic of Progenitus or Maverick decided to MD 4 Deathrite Shaman that'd be bad for Manaless Dredge in ways it wouldn't be bad for Mana Dredge etc.

Basically, the increased linearity and decrease speed of this deck gives the opponent more possible avenues of extreme hate from otherwise unassumming cards, and I'm not certain whether or not the deck actually has an obviously increased win percentage vs aggro-control or control that justifies playing it when it has a clearly decreased win percentage vs combo. Granted those two matches are heavily weighted towards aggro-control or control if an increased win percentage does exist. I feel like people came back to this deck because combo is a small portion of the metagame and the "boogie man" cards that were suppose to make this deck unplayable were never played in SBs, but with Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace being released I fear we're going to hit another cycle of "new scary hate card gets played, this deck gets shelved until people realize new scary hate card sucks," or Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace will actually stick somewhere.

Ok, so my question is does this deck actually have a higher win percentage vs the tier 1 aggro-control and control decks than any other variant?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something,

Player 1: Land, Relic of Progenitus
Player 2: Draw a card, discard a Dredger
Player 1: Taps Relic of Progenitus to RFG the Dredger.




Player 1 cannot tap the Relic after you discarded a card in your turn, because he gets no priority in the cleanup-step. The earliest moment when he could use his Relic after discarding is in his upkeep.

Actually Wraith, Probe and Baubles are better protetion from Relic than Gorian is. You DDD a Gorian, they tap Relic in their turn. You response by discarding 3 cards. They sacrifice their Relic. Congraulations, you triple-timewalked yourself. :eek:

[Michael Keller]

Look for a report soon.

[slave]

Player 1 cannot tap the Relic after you discarded a card in your turn, because he gets no priority in the cleanup-step. The earliest moment when he could use his Relic after discarding is in his upkeep.

But we're still boned without Wraith in hand, right?
I got locked out that very way just recently.

On another point, I've started looking at other options for Enchantment/Artifact hate.
Now I want something flexible, and as good as Nature's Claim is, I'm curious what other options we may have.
Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation pique the interest, but they don't look playable considering the hate we're facing.
Has anyone played them and had good results?

[Kich867]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something,

Player 1: Land, Relic of Progenitus
Player 2: Draw a card, discard a Dredger
Player 1: Taps Relic of Progenitus to RFG the Dredger.

Without a Phantasmagorian to protect the Dredge from the secondary ability, but play into the primary ability, a pre-emptive Gitaxian Probe on Player 2's Turn 1 or a reactive Streetwraith that's GG.

The deck has a resilience vs Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt based on its threat density by a weakness vs Relic of Progenitus and Deathrite Shaman based on its over reliance on your discard phase. And yes, while I understand there are possible outs to a Relic of Progenitus lock, that doesn't mean giving Relic of Progenitus additional EV is acceptable.

So, in the event Deathrite Shaman gains traction or Relic of Progenitus makes a come back, Manaless Dredge is going to have serious problems. Which makes me conclude that Manaless Dredge is an exploit vs linear graveyard hate i.e. Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt effects and if Goblins, for example, decided to SB 4 Relic of Progenitus or Maverick decided to MD 4 Deathrite Shaman that'd be bad for Manaless Dredge in ways it wouldn't be bad for Mana Dredge etc.

Basically, the increased linearity and decrease speed of this deck gives the opponent more possible avenues of extreme hate from otherwise unassumming cards, and I'm not certain whether or not the deck actually has an obviously increased win percentage vs aggro-control or control that justifies playing it when it has a clearly decreased win percentage vs combo. Granted those two matches are heavily weighted towards aggro-control or control if an increased win percentage does exist. I feel like people came back to this deck because combo is a small portion of the metagame and the "boogie man" cards that were suppose to make this deck unplayable were never played in SBs, but with Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace being released I fear we're going to hit another cycle of "new scary hate card gets played, this deck gets shelved until people realize new scary hate card sucks," or Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace will actually stick somewhere.

Ok, so my question is does this deck actually have a higher win percentage vs the tier 1 aggro-control and control decks than any other variant?

I can't speak to Relic (though I've seen the deck fight through it many times), this deck barely gives a shit about Deathrite Shaman unless it either has no gorian or street wraith in hand. Deathrite shaman hoses this deck in the other circumstances, but mathematically your chance of having one of those two cards in your hand is significantly higher than anyone opening with a deathrite shaman.

If they run 4 DS's, you're looking at 8-16 outs to the card post-board. How is this a big deal to you? Contagion kills him, shoal kills him, phantasmagorian fizzles the ability and street wraith fizzles the ability.

Also, seriously, 0 people are running RIP outside of that cutesy control/combo deck that won't see much play. Too many decks give a shit about their graveyard. In fact, every relevant white deck gives a shit about it's graveyard outside of like Death and Taxes, who still probably won't run it because 2 mana is -still- too slow for graveyard hate. The graveyard decks you want it against (Reanimator / Dredge) are too far along at that point. And even this deck runs sideboard Reverent Silence which hoses it out. At 2cmc it's too answerable for GY decks, it'll be relevant against the pseudo-GY decks like Aggro Loam, but when you're boarding in RIP for that matchup, at that point you have to ask yourself what your deck is really doing..

[Final Fortune]

Player 1 cannot tap the Relic after you discarded a card in your turn, because he gets no priority in the cleanup-step. The earliest moment when he could use his Relic after discarding is in his upkeep.

Actually Wraith, Probe and Baubles are better protetion from Relic than Gorian is. You DDD a Gorian, they tap Relic in their turn. You response by discarding 3 cards. They sacrifice their Relic. Congraulations, you triple-timewalked yourself. :eek:

So the opponent just activates Relic of Progenitus on his turn and you're still completely fucked without an answer to it, it's a problem all the same.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Thats why you need to learn how to react against it. If you expect many Relics and no Leylines in your meta, you can play Baubles in the board. Without any of the 16 mentioned cards, there is not much that we can do, but we still can have up to quadruple the number of anti-cards than they have Relics.

Shoals, Contagions, Baubles, Reverent Silence, etc. are all meta-calls IMO. You need to know what hate they are packing, and build your deck for that tourney. Manaless is a meta-deck, so you need to adapt to the hate-meta. If you can't life with that you should probably play the standard quad-lazer list.

[slave]

....this deck barely gives a shit about Deathrite Shaman unless it either has no gorian or street wraith in hand. Deathrite shaman hoses this deck in the other circumstances, but mathematically your chance of having one of those two cards in your hand is significantly higher than anyone opening with a deathrite shaman.
If they run 4 DS's, you're looking at 8-16 outs to the card post-board. How is this a big deal to you? Contagion kills him, shoal kills him, phantasmagorian fizzles the ability and street wraith fizzles the ability.
Also, seriously, 0 people are running RIP outside of that cutesy control/combo deck that won't see much play. Too many decks give a shit about their graveyard.

All good points.
I totally agree that our hate choices are entirely meta-influenced.
For me - I did come up against Deathrite on two occassions, but I have to ask how useful it's ability really is for deck synergy, and whether the card will stay in *said* decks for the long haul. Honestly, given that it can't do a thing about Mavericks' KoTR, (the most pop. deck in my area) I'm not sure I'll be bothered for too long....

[P-E]

Holly From Cairo , less teasing more posting :laugh:

Really nice holly it's good you keep playing the deck ^^
waiting for the report with impatience

[Michael Keller]

Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24895-Report-Return-of-the-Living-Dead-3rd-Jupiter-Games-NELC-w-Manaless-Dredge!&p=681607#post681607) is up!

[Final Fortune]

Thats why you need to learn how to react against it. If you expect many Relics and no Leylines in your meta, you can play Baubles in the board. Without any of the 16 mentioned cards, there is not much that we can do, but we still can have up to quadruple the number of anti-cards than they have Relics.

Shoals, Contagions, Baubles, Reverent Silence, etc. are all meta-calls IMO. You need to know what hate they are packing, and build your deck for that tourney. Manaless is a meta-deck, so you need to adapt to the hate-meta. If you can't life with that you should probably play the standard quad-lazer list.

I understand it's not the equivalent of Leyline of the Void and Enchantment destruction, but what I'm saying is the deck is weaker to cards like Relic of Progenitus, Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze and has a reduced fundamental turn vs combo (i.e it loses to Storm) in order to be stronger vs Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt, so Manaless Dredge seems like a metagame call for Force of Will.dec where Mana Dredge has a more rounded game vs tertiary hate cards and combo decks faster than Show&Tell (I don't think Show&Tell is a problem because 4 Angel of Despair in the SB puts that match up on lock down)

[Karbunkelsopp]

Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24895-Report-Return-of-the-Living-Dead-3rd-Jupiter-Games-NELC-w-Manaless-Dredge!&p=681607#post681607) is up!

Thanks for the report, always a pleasure to see your matches!

Edit: Really liked Ali from "frikkin Cairo", what matchup would you sideboarded him in for? (If any)
Wood Elemental next up? :cool:

[slave]

Well Done Hollywood - great write-up, cheers for the read.
Ali gave me a "WTF am I not seeing here moment"...until I read further. LOL.
Just one question
(I don't think I've ever mulled with the is deck yet, but there's definitely a few occasions where it may have helped.)
Was there any game you actually mulled your hand?

Also - what you said about Grave-Troll & Flayer being the main win-con;
I'm finding that too.
Flayer has been my primary DR target lately whenever I have the opportunity for a double DR (which has been surprisingly often lately)

I'm playing a singleton Reveillark in the sideboard to mix it up...it's pretty win-more, but it should be good for giggles.
Dunno how long I'll keep it, but I'm enjoying Reveillark for it's synergy with DR & Therapy

[Michael Keller]

I actually considered mulling my hand in game one of the Top Four, but figured I would play it out and see what happens.

Ali From Cairo would never come in any matches; he's strictly a joke.

[birdbrains]

I just took hollywood's list to a 3-0-1 finish at a local tournament, and thought I'd write a small report on it.

Round 1 - Greg B. U/W Miracles

This round was against my main playtest partner, so we did some math an figured out if we drew we still had a chance to win if we went 3-0-1. So we play a practice game and scout the field.

0-0-1

Round 2 - Mike D. High Tide

I had no idea how this matchup was supposed to go. I figured it was that I have to either combo or tear his hand apart before he does. Game 1, I misplayed terribly. On turn 2 I had 3 creatures in play and 3 therapies in the yard, but didn't cast none of them. He went off on his turn 3 with 2 time spirals and a meditate but fizzled. I took 2 extra turns and we up my graveyard again. The game was over shortly after. Game 2 was the same with him going off under pressure on turn 3, and fizzling.

1-0-1

Round 3 - Chad W Jund Nic Fit

I had tested against this deck before and the veteran explorer/therapy combo is good against my bridges. Game 1 I kept a hand with Phantasmagorian and Street wraith. Chad put me on storm which is what I usually play and cast a first turn therapy naming brainstorm, only to see I was on dredge. Then dredge did its thing and game 1 was over. Game 2 he puts me on the play and I keep a hand of grave troll and triple street wraith. He plays a nihil spellbomb and I drew it out with a narcomoeba on my first wraith. The next time I discard the grave troll, he tries to surgical it, but I cycle in response and he scoops the next turn to a zombie Griselbrand.

2-0-1

Round 4 - Anthony I. Goblins

My opponent is the only remaining undefeated player, so my draw round 1 ended up paying off. Unfortunately, Greg lost to my round 3 opponent in round 2, and he ended up coming in 5th. I lose the die roll and gladly take the draw. He opens with an aether vial and I discard a Phantasmagorian, pitching grave troll and two imps on his end step. He makes a couple goblins and I develop my graveyard until I reanimate Griselbrand and flip my deck. He dies to flayer. Game 2 he puts me on the draw again and leads with lackey. I discard grave troll and on his turn contagion eats the lackey, which he follows up with a second one. I get a couple of turns to make some nether shadows before I see a relic. On my next upkeep my opponent misplays and lets me get back two ichorids and 3 nether shadows, then cleans my yard with the relic in response to a narco trigger in my draw step. I get set back 4 turns but I have board presence. I get lucky and my opponent doesn't attack aggressively with his creatures, so I build back up and shoal two goblins once I get a dredger, and two turns later flayer comes back to kill him.

3-0-1

[Michael Keller]

Congrats on the finish.

I'm looking to update my sideboard for this weekend's NELC. Nothing major, but I'm entertaining ideas. As of right now, the Reverent Silences, lands and Shoals are a sure thing. I'm not so sure about Nature's Claim, although it's probably the right card to still play. I just haven't had to board it in at all because there are cards (like Street Wraith) and lines of play that just win in their own right against cards like Relic and Crypt.

So, I'm just wondering what - if anything - needs to change for its continued success? As far as I'm concerned, there are a few flex slots that are meta dependent - those being the Claims and Dread Return target(s).

[slave]

One card I see every now and then is Glacial Chasm.
Given some decks can plonk it down and avoid the upkeep with other stuff in play, or combo out before the upkeep becomes a worry, I'm wondering whether a single creatute to kill it may be worth including, like good ole Woodfall Primus.

[kwis]

One card I see every now and then is Glacial Chasm.
Given some decks can plonk it down and avoid the upkeep with other stuff in play, or combo out before the upkeep becomes a worry, I'm wondering whether a single creatute to kill it may be worth including, like good ole Woodfall Primus.

Is it worth trying to bring in hate instead of just going for flayer troll?

[(nameless one)]

Is it worth trying to bring in hate instead of just going for flayer troll?

I believe it is since Glacial Clasm also prevents damage.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I'd simply play 3 Griselbrand, 1 Flayer and 1 Angel of Despair as DR-Targets to prevent those situations.

It's also 1 card more to "have" against S&T.

Btw, I have 2 open SB Slots atm.

4 Claim
4 Silence
2 Fetch
1 Forest
2 DR-Targets

Does it make sense to fill the other 2 slots with more Lands? I am convinced that I will not need more than a split of 4 Shoals/Contagion main, so playing 2 more of them in the side seems wasted to me.

[slave]

I'd simply play 3 Griselbrand, 1 Flayer and 1 Angel of Despair as DR-Targets to prevent those situations.

It's also 1 card more to "have" against S&T.

Btw, I have 2 open SB Slots atm.

4 Claim
4 Silence
2 Fetch
1 Forest
2 DR-Targets

Does it make sense to fill the other 2 slots with more Lands? I am convinced that I will not need more than a split of 4 Shoals/Contagion main, so playing 2 more of them in the side seems wasted to me.

I've not had a huge problem with creatures - I'm running 6 Shoals/Contagion split between main and side, and most of the time I'm boarding them all out in game 2 and 3. There not many creatures we can just play around.
Angel of Despair seems a good inclusion TBH, I spaced on that one. I may keep one in the side myself for Chasm, but I prefer 2 Flayers in the main.

Are you running Gitaxian Probe?

[Final Fortune]

Congrats on the finish.

I'm looking to update my sideboard for this weekend's NELC. Nothing major, but I'm entertaining ideas. As of right now, the Reverent Silences, lands and Shoals are a sure thing. I'm not so sure about Nature's Claim, although it's probably the right card to still play. I just haven't had to board it in at all because there are cards (like Street Wraith) and lines of play that just win in their own right against cards like Relic and Crypt.

So, I'm just wondering what - if anything - needs to change for its continued success? As far as I'm concerned, there are a few flex slots that are meta dependent - those being the Claims and Dread Return target(s).

The problem with Nature's Claim is that it's unnecessary vs artifact hate and unreliable vs Leyline of the Void because every deck that plays Leyline of the Void in the SB plays Wastelands and creature removal in the MD, Goblins specifically, making Dryad Arbor a liability.

I think Angel of Despair(s) is pretty much a free bullet vs Show&Tell, and Unmask is incredibly underrated as a reliable source of turn 2 disruption - I'm beginning to strictly prefer it to Dryad Arbor, because I don't think Leyline of the Void is really worth SBing lands for and it'll help us race T3 combo and improve our accuracy with Cabal Therapy.

[Michael Keller]

The problem with Nature's Claim is that it's unnecessary vs artifact hate and unreliable vs Leyline of the Void because every deck that plays Leyline of the Void in the SB plays Wastelands and creature removal in the MD, Goblins specifically, making Dryad Arbor a liability.

I think Angel of Despair(s) is pretty much a free bullet vs Show&Tell, and Unmask is incredibly underrated as a reliable source of turn 2 disruption - I'm beginning to strictly prefer it to Dryad Arbor, because I don't think Leyline of the Void is really worth SBing lands for and it'll help us race T3 combo and improve our accuracy with Cabal Therapy.

You don't play Dryad Arbor until you plan to actually do something with it. The only time you would play it straight out is if you are boarding in Nature's Claims against Leyline and your opponent drops a Leyline. Arbor is strictly a tool main-deck to facilitate tokens with Dread Return and Therapy, in addition to being a resource to accelerate into a faster Dread Return without being stuck on two creatures.

I am seriously beginning to question just how necessary Claim is in the sideboard, but you really want to have Silence. It's just too good to pass up. I also think that Angel of Despair is decent in the sideboard, but if an opponent is Showing in Emrakul or Griselbrand, you're really just going to beat them anyway by matching Griselbrand for Griselbrand or plowing through your deck against Emrakul with your Griselbrand that sticks.

Omniscience is another story, and obviously Angel is better against that. However, I don't see a lot of Omni-Show in my area, so I'm not worried. Most of it is Sneak-Show.

Glacial Chasm is a card and does see play in a few decks (Lands and 12Post), but it's really not that big of a deal. When you strip an opponent's hand of anything relevant and they're forced to pay the painful upkeep of it before it dies, their life total is still dwindling to keep it going. In that respect, you can burn out their hand and hope they find nothing. But it's too narrow a card to board in anything specific for.

[Final Fortune]

You don't play Dryad Arbor until you plan to actually do something with it. The only time you would play it straight out is if you are boarding in Nature's Claims against Leyline and your opponent drops a Leyline. Arbor is strictly a tool main-deck to facilitate tokens with Dread Return and Therapy, in addition to being a resource to accelerate into a faster Dread Return without being stuck on two creatures.

I am seriously beginning to question just how necessary Claim is in the sideboard, but you really want to have Silence. It's just too good to pass up. I also think that Angel of Despair is decent in the sideboard, but if an opponent is Showing in Emrakul or Griselbrand, you're really just going to beat them anyway by matching Griselbrand for Griselbrand or plowing through your deck against Emrakul with your Griselbrand that sticks.

Omniscience is another story, and obviously Angel is better against that. However, I don't see a lot of Omni-Show in my area, so I'm not worried. Most of it is Sneak-Show.

Glacial Chasm is a card and does see play in a few decks (Lands and 12Post), but it's really not that big of a deal. When you strip an opponent's hand of anything relevant and they're forced to pay the painful upkeep of it before it dies, their life total is still dwindling to keep it going. In that respect, you can burn out their hand and hope they find nothing. But it's too narrow a card to board in anything specific for.

I understand Dryad Arbor's MD roles as a value card for Cabal Therapy and Dread Return, I just think having cards that concretely speed you up or slow your opponent down are more important, i.e. Gitaxian Probe and Unmask.