[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

[Michael Keller]

I appreciate everyone's facilitating of the discussion. All of you contribute in a big way and I honestly wouldn't have come up and refined the list I play if it weren't for a good portion of all of your input.

I also have every right to defend my work and opinion openly after having worked as hard as I have trying to evolve the archetype as much as I (think) I have. No one deserves to be berated or belittled, nor should I or anyone else tolerate that type of classless behavior. This is a plague that never seems to desist and occasionally rears itself every so often.

Simply put: thank you to everyone who has helped try and get the deck to the point it's at today. Just because someone perfects and plays a deck doesn't make it "theirs" by default. However, common courtesy should be respected and shown to your peers. Interests and ideals will inevitably conflict - but that shouldn't enable poor behavior by some folks who enjoy perpetrating it.

I've got a fun new list I've been working on that I'll be sure to post soon.

[Vandalize]

I've got a fun new list I've been working on that I'll be sure to post soon.

Tell me it does include Tortured Existence and Street Wraith!

[civet five]

Tell me it does include Tortured Existence and Street Wraith!

I haven't tried TE in Dredge, but I have in a B/G Vengevine-Loltroll-BaskingRootwalla lolz combo, and it was total boss if you could activate it. The biggest reason that would scare me away from trying TE is that you would probably have to give up Dryad Arbor and cram in Dakmor Salvage; otherwise how do you find BB reliably?

[slave]

I haven't tried TE in Dredge, but I have in a B/G Vengevine-Loltroll-BaskingRootwalla lolz combo, and it was total boss if you could activate it. The biggest reason that would scare me away from trying TE is that you would probably have to give up Dryad Arbor and cram in Dakmor Salvage; otherwise how do you find BB reliably?

Maybe trade the Arbor's for fetches and Bayou? I dunno..... Arbor is an automatic 4 slots, gonna be hard to take it out without screwing the deck a bit.

[sherko7]

Not sure if there is any way to do this but I think I've read somewhere that you can, at end of your opponent's turn with Phantasmagorian in GY, discard 3, hold priority, cycle Street Wraith and then after that discard another 3 (including the one you dredge'd). How the hell? :O

[slave]

Not sure if there is any way to do this but I think I've read somewhere that you can, at end of your opponent's turn with Phantasmagorian in GY, discard 3, hold priority, cycle Street Wraith and then after that discard another 3 (including the one you dredge'd). How the hell? :O

You can cycle Wraith anytime you can cast an instant, including when other things are on the stack.
You can also Discard 3 cards, multiple times, off the one Phants, same timing as Wraith.
Both cards can be used in your own end step on turn 1.

So yeah.... I think that's correct.
I'm no rules expert though, maybe kick a question over to the rules section - unless someone here can verify this?

[Countertoplol]

You can cycle Wraith anytime you can cast an instant, including when other things are on the stack.
You can also Discard 3 cards, multiple times, off the one Phants, same timing as Wraith.
Both cards can be used in your own end step on turn 1.

So yeah.... I think that's correct.
I'm no rules expert though, maybe kick a question over to the rules section - unless someone here can verify this?

It works just like he said it did. You activate the phant holding priority then respond by cycling the wraith. Then your opponent gets priority and can respond to it. After the cycling resolves and you dredge whatever you discarded, the phantasmagorian activation is still on the stack and you can activate it again.

[TerribleTim68]

It works just like he said it did. You activate the phant holding priority then respond by cycling the wraith. Then your opponent gets priority and can respond to it. After the cycling resolves and you dredge whatever you discarded, the phantasmagorian activation is still on the stack and you can activate it again.

Hmm, that's an interesting tidbit to know. Now all I need to know is -
Why has this thread (and the LED Dredge thread) been so dead lately? Is Deathrite Shaman that big a deal right now? :confused:

[Countertoplol]

Hmm, that's an interesting tidbit to know. Now all I need to know is -
Why has this thread (and the LED Dredge thread) been so dead lately? Is Deathrite Shaman that big a deal right now? :confused:

I think people just haven't had many ideas for the deck. Deathrite doesn't really seem to be a problem for either version of dredge. I've played a lot against turn 1 deathrites and I'm still able to crush game 1. Sometimes the deathrite decks don't even pack additional hate in the sideboard, which is pretty much an auto win for us.

[TerribleTim68]

Well, I shied away from it (even though it really is the deck I enjoy the most right now) because my meta was overrun with maindeck Rest In Peace, Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman plus a ton of sideboard hate. Basically, my meta isn't very "graveyard friendly" at all so I've gotte naway from anything that uses the graveyard at all. Which sucks because I miss this deck. :frown:

[sherko7]

It works just like he said it did. You activate the phant holding priority then respond by cycling the wraith. Then your opponent gets priority and can respond to it. After the cycling resolves and you dredge whatever you discarded, the phantasmagorian activation is still on the stack and you can activate it again.

OK so if I get it right:

Turn 1: I discard Phantasmagorian
Opponents end of turn: I activate Phantasmagorian, hold priority, cycle Street Wraith and pass priority to him. He chooses not to respond, so I Dredge, say GGT. After Dredging, Phantasmagorian's ability is still on the stack so I can activate it again (discarding the Dredge'd GGT earlier)?

[teonsw]

Well, I shied away from it (even though it really is the deck I enjoy the most right now) because my meta was overrun with maindeck Rest In Peace, Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman plus a ton of sideboard hate. Basically, my meta isn't very "graveyard friendly" at all so I've gotte naway from anything that uses the graveyard at all. Which sucks because I miss this deck. :frown:

This is the main reason i switched from manaless dredge. Do not get me wrong, this deck is awesome but playing in my local meta against nothing but hate made me want to switch it up a bit.

[TerribleTim68]

OK so if I get it right:

Turn 1: I discard Phantasmagorian
Opponents end of turn: I activate Phantasmagorian, hold priority, cycle Street Wraith and pass priority to him. He chooses not to respond, so I Dredge, say GGT. After Dredging, Phantasmagorian's ability is still on the stack so I can activate it again (discarding the Dredge'd GGT earlier)?

Yes sir, that is correct. :wink:

[slave]

I think people just haven't had many ideas for the deck.

Hasn't been anything from Gatecrash too exciting for manaless. Could be a big reason why peeps are getn into other decks.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Hasn't been anything from Gatecrash too exciting for manaless. Could be a big reason why peeps are getn into other decks.

Well... actually the same was true for RTR, M13, AVR, DA, INN, M12...
What do you expect from a deck that actually "casts" only spells that has alternate ways to cast.

The main reason is that it is worse against the new gravehate [RIP, DR-Shaman] then LED-Dredge, IMO.
Manaless was godly in the Mental-Misstep-Era and it also was very strong positioned when the most played gravehate were Crypts and Snappy & Surgical. We don't live in this times anymore, and people are looking for decks that aren't that much meta-dependant.


Oh, and btw:


I've got a fun new list I've been working on that I'll be sure to post soon.

How long do we need to wait? :laugh: ;)

[teonsw]

Well... actually the same was true for RTR, M13, AVR, DA, INN, M12...
What do you expect from a deck that actually "casts" only spells that has alternate ways to cast.

The main reason is that it is worse against the new gravehate [RIP, DR-Shaman] then LED-Dredge, IMO.
Manaless was godly in the Mental-Misstep-Era and it also was very strong positioned when the most played gravehate were Crypts and Snappy & Surgical. We don't live in this times anymore, and people are looking for decks that aren't that much meta-dependant.


Oh, and btw:


How long do we need to wait? :laugh: ;)

You are right, although AVR gave griselbrand the key win con. Dark ascension also gave flayer the true in your face win con. Rtr and gatecrash have given nothing alas. :(

[NecroYawgmoth]

Well, Griselbro can be replaced with Sphinx, and before Flayer we had stuff like FKZ/Elesh Norn/Iona maindeck, which are usually also GG most of the time.

But yeah, I have to admit that I forgot those DR-Targets. Still, I don't think we will get a better creature than Griselbrand in the near future. :cry:

[GerryT]

Hey y'all. The Legacy MOCS is coming up so I decided to buy Dredge online. Since I was only a few cards short of Manaless Dredge, I decided to try that as well and was pleasantly surprised.

I started with Hollywood's list, cut the Reverent Silence package from the board since very few people play Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void online.

I decided to track my matches:

2-0 Jund Nic Fit/Scapeshift
2-0 Esper Stoneblade
0-2 Belcher
2-0 B/G Pox
1-2 Mono-Black Dark Depths
2-0 Aluren
0-2 TES (t2 both games)
2-1 Junk (t1 Deathrite each game)
2-1 Elves (t1 Deathrite each game)
0-2 ANT (t2 both games)
2-0 Elves
0-2 Elves
1-2 RUG (Surgical + Ooze)
1-2 Burn (t1 Relic g2/3)
1-2 MonoG Infect (no dredger in opener all 3 games)

At this point, I started discussing the deck with Mark Sun and Dan Musser. We decided that Chancellor of the Annex was something we wanted to try. Against Deathrite Shaman, you want Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith in your opener, but Chancellor was another thing that would help. Granted, we weren't losing to many Deathrite Shamans, despite several of them being cast, but Storm was the main thing we wanted help against.

2-0 Junk
2-0 Burn
1-2 Elves (I punted very badly)
2-0 Doomsday
0-2 Burn
2-0 Aluren
2-1 Esper Stoneblade
1-2 Elves (Deathrite, Teeg, Mortarpod)
2-0 Jund
1-2 Burn (t3 kill)
2-1 Reanimator (Shoaled his Elesh Norn!)
1-2 B/G Pox (Leyline g2/3)

Here I decided to buy Mindbreak Traps for 17 tickets each because I was losing to Storm and was more committed to the deck, so I didn't mind buying cards I would likely resell at a loss.

2-0 BUG
1-2 ANT (no Leyline, he Therapy-ed my Trap)
2-0 Junk
2-0 BUG
1-2 Elves (Deathrite, Zenith x2 for Deathrites, Thorn, Teeg)
1-2 UR Delver (t1 Relic g2/3)

Overall, I was 17-16 but a lot of that was Storm decks and a lot of it was while I was refining the deck.

This is my current list:

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
3 Nether Shadow
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Sickening Shoal
4 Dryad Arbor
Sideboard
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Angel of Despair
2 Contagion
4 Gitaxian Probe

The Leylines were to help against Storm and Burn. Chalice of the Void is another option if I wanted to become more hateful. I wanted Gitaxian Probe or Call to the Netherworld to speed me up against combo but so far they've been lackluster. Additional hate like Chalice would be much better, even if it means I'm not dredging until turn three or whatever. I've also been considering maindecking the Mindbreak Traps over Sickening Shoal just to try and get an edge against Storm.

I've had 13 hands with no dredger, which has been incredibly disappointing every time it happens. I'm strongly considering the 4th Shambling Shell just to pad my percentages.

Dryad Arbor has been pretty awesome as an accelerator but unfortunately I've never had it whenever they've had Thorn of Amethyst, Thalia, etc. I know Dan is trying lists without it entirely.

I've cut back on the Dread Return package, which might be incorrect, but it's not necessary in most of the matchups. Regardless of whether you want a full DR package or not, I think it's safe to cut one Flayer and one Nether Shadow.

Chancellor of the Annex has been fantastic as a way to steal back initiative. It also makes a fine DR target.

Flayer solves most of the problems that Angel would, but I had the sideboard space and didn't want to run into something I couldn't deal with. That said, I will likely cut it, as those situations are few and far between.

I've had Leyline of the Void put into play against me twice, once by Mono-Black Dark Depths and once by B/G Pox. Obviously I can't beat it, but if I'm doing my job and staying in the winners' bracket, that shouldn't be an issue. Rest in Peace is a "real" card but I'm seeing more traditional Miracles and Stoneblade online.

Honestly, this deck doesn't lose to Deathrite Shaman (nor would normal Dredge if built correctly), so I don't see why people are putting Dredge down. It's the enchantments that are the issue, but those are rarely played except by the most hateful of people.

I like this deck, will continue to work on it, and it's currently my frontrunner for the MOCS.

[Final Fortune]

Hey y'all. The Legacy MOCS is coming up so I decided to buy Dredge online. Since I was only a few cards short of Manaless Dredge, I decided to try that as well and was pleasantly surprised.

I started with Hollywood's list, cut the Reverent Silence package from the board since very few people play Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void online.

I decided to track my matches:

2-0 Jund Nic Fit/Scapeshift
2-0 Esper Stoneblade
0-2 Belcher
2-0 B/G Pox
1-2 Mono-Black Dark Depths
2-0 Aluren
0-2 TES (t2 both games)
2-1 Junk (t1 Deathrite each game)
2-1 Elves (t1 Deathrite each game)
0-2 ANT (t2 both games)
2-0 Elves
0-2 Elves
1-2 RUG (Surgical + Ooze)
1-2 Burn (t1 Relic g2/3)
1-2 MonoG Infect (no dredger in opener all 3 games)

At this point, I started discussing the deck with Mark Sun and Dan Musser. We decided that Chancellor of the Annex was something we wanted to try. Against Deathrite Shaman, you want Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith in your opener, but Chancellor was another thing that would help. Granted, we weren't losing to many Deathrite Shamans, despite several of them being cast, but Storm was the main thing we wanted help against.

2-0 Junk
2-0 Burn
1-2 Elves (I punted very badly)
2-0 Doomsday
0-2 Burn
2-0 Aluren
2-1 Esper Stoneblade
1-2 Elves (Deathrite, Teeg, Mortarpod)
2-0 Jund
1-2 Burn (t3 kill)
2-1 Reanimator (Shoaled his Elesh Norn!)
1-2 B/G Pox (Leyline g2/3)

Here I decided to buy Mindbreak Traps for 17 tickets each because I was losing to Storm and was more committed to the deck, so I didn't mind buying cards I would likely resell at a loss.

2-0 BUG
1-2 ANT (no Leyline, he Therapy-ed my Trap)
2-0 Junk
2-0 BUG
1-2 Elves (Deathrite, Zenith x2 for Deathrites, Thorn, Teeg)
1-2 UR Delver (t1 Relic g2/3)

Overall, I was 17-16 but a lot of that was Storm decks and a lot of it was while I was refining the deck.

This is my current list:

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
3 Nether Shadow
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Sickening Shoal
4 Dryad Arbor
Sideboard
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Angel of Despair
2 Contagion
4 Gitaxian Probe

The Leylines were to help against Storm and Burn. Chalice of the Void is another option if I wanted to become more hateful. I wanted Gitaxian Probe or Call to the Netherworld to speed me up against combo but so far they've been lackluster. Additional hate like Chalice would be much better, even if it means I'm not dredging until turn three or whatever. I've also been considering maindecking the Mindbreak Traps over Sickening Shoal just to try and get an edge against Storm.

I've had 13 hands with no dredger, which has been incredibly disappointing every time it happens. I'm strongly considering the 4th Shambling Shell just to pad my percentages.

Dryad Arbor has been pretty awesome as an accelerator but unfortunately I've never had it whenever they've had Thorn of Amethyst, Thalia, etc. I know Dan is trying lists without it entirely.

I've cut back on the Dread Return package, which might be incorrect, but it's not necessary in most of the matchups. Regardless of whether you want a full DR package or not, I think it's safe to cut one Flayer and one Nether Shadow.

Chancellor of the Annex has been fantastic as a way to steal back initiative. It also makes a fine DR target.

Flayer solves most of the problems that Angel would, but I had the sideboard space and didn't want to run into something I couldn't deal with. That said, I will likely cut it, as those situations are few and far between.

I've had Leyline of the Void put into play against me twice, once by Mono-Black Dark Depths and once by B/G Pox. Obviously I can't beat it, but if I'm doing my job and staying in the winners' bracket, that shouldn't be an issue. Rest in Peace is a "real" card but I'm seeing more traditional Miracles and Stoneblade online.

Honestly, this deck doesn't lose to Deathrite Shaman (nor would normal Dredge if built correctly), so I don't see why people are putting Dredge down. It's the enchantments that are the issue, but those are rarely played except by the most hateful of people.

I like this deck, will continue to work on it, and it's currently my frontrunner for the MOCS.

If you're trying to play Mindbreak Trap in your MD then the card that you're really looking for is Unmask, it's fast enough to stop ANT from going off on turn 3 and TES only goes off on Turn 2 about 20% of the time - and it's obviously not dead vs every other deck in the format.

Otherwise, I completely agree with cutting the Reverent Silence package in exchange for more SB space, I'd rather have 7+ more cards for Combo than an answer to a linear SB card that no one is really playing post Deathrite Shaman. Furthermore, I'm not really impressed by Dryad Arbor if its not contributing to the Reverent Silence SB package because it does nothing without a Cabal Therapy or Dread Return in your graveyard compared to something like Chancellor of the Annex etc.

I go back on forth on Gitaxian Probe because I'm not certain whether or not it's better to have a card that speeds you up as opposed to a card that slows them down, but fwiw disruption seems to be better draw because "Dazing" the opponent on his first turn or Unamsking the opponent on your second turn prevents him from raping you before your Gitaxian Probe would give you any dividens (you have to wait until your third turn to activate Ichorid and Nethershadow in order to flashback Cabal Therapy etc.)

Chancellor of the Annex and Unmask MD over Sickening Shoal and Dryad Arbor I think is better rounded vs the format, because delaying the Deathrite Shaman until turn 2 lets you activate your first Dredge unmolested, at which point Deathrite Shaman is mediocre disruption instead of a hard lock, and Unmask is more reliable turn 2 disruption than Dryad Arbor + Cabal Therapy.

[SaintS]

I´m not a huge fan of Chancellor of the Annex nor am I of Dryad Arbor, but I think the second one is more usefull in my meta, so I´m sticking with it.
One thing that I really miss is Bloodghast and Dakmor Salvage which can be usefull from times to times.


now the only thing I would like to know is : where is your new list hollywood??!! ^^

[teonsw]

Hey y'all. The Legacy MOCS is coming up so I decided to buy Dredge online. Since I was only a few cards short of Manaless Dredge, I decided to try that as well and was pleasantly surprised.

I started with Hollywood's list, cut the Reverent Silence package from the board since very few people play Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void online.

I decided to track my matches:

2-0 Jund Nic Fit/Scapeshift
2-0 Esper Stoneblade
0-2 Belcher
2-0 B/G Pox
1-2 Mono-Black Dark Depths
2-0 Aluren
0-2 TES (t2 both games)
2-1 Junk (t1 Deathrite each game)
2-1 Elves (t1 Deathrite each game)
0-2 ANT (t2 both games)
2-0 Elves
0-2 Elves
1-2 RUG (Surgical + Ooze)
1-2 Burn (t1 Relic g2/3)
1-2 MonoG Infect (no dredger in opener all 3 games)

At this point, I started discussing the deck with Mark Sun and Dan Musser. We decided that Chancellor of the Annex was something we wanted to try. Against Deathrite Shaman, you want Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith in your opener, but Chancellor was another thing that would help. Granted, we weren't losing to many Deathrite Shamans, despite several of them being cast, but Storm was the main thing we wanted help against.

2-0 Junk
2-0 Burn
1-2 Elves (I punted very badly)
2-0 Doomsday
0-2 Burn
2-0 Aluren
2-1 Esper Stoneblade
1-2 Elves (Deathrite, Teeg, Mortarpod)
2-0 Jund
1-2 Burn (t3 kill)
2-1 Reanimator (Shoaled his Elesh Norn!)
1-2 B/G Pox (Leyline g2/3)

Here I decided to buy Mindbreak Traps for 17 tickets each because I was losing to Storm and was more committed to the deck, so I didn't mind buying cards I would likely resell at a loss.

2-0 BUG
1-2 ANT (no Leyline, he Therapy-ed my Trap)
2-0 Junk
2-0 BUG
1-2 Elves (Deathrite, Zenith x2 for Deathrites, Thorn, Teeg)
1-2 UR Delver (t1 Relic g2/3)

Overall, I was 17-16 but a lot of that was Storm decks and a lot of it was while I was refining the deck.

This is my current list:

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
3 Nether Shadow
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Sickening Shoal
4 Dryad Arbor
Sideboard
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Angel of Despair
2 Contagion
4 Gitaxian Probe

The Leylines were to help against Storm and Burn. Chalice of the Void is another option if I wanted to become more hateful. I wanted Gitaxian Probe or Call to the Netherworld to speed me up against combo but so far they've been lackluster. Additional hate like Chalice would be much better, even if it means I'm not dredging until turn three or whatever. I've also been considering maindecking the Mindbreak Traps over Sickening Shoal just to try and get an edge against Storm.

I've had 13 hands with no dredger, which has been incredibly disappointing every time it happens. I'm strongly considering the 4th Shambling Shell just to pad my percentages.

Dryad Arbor has been pretty awesome as an accelerator but unfortunately I've never had it whenever they've had Thorn of Amethyst, Thalia, etc. I know Dan is trying lists without it entirely.

I've cut back on the Dread Return package, which might be incorrect, but it's not necessary in most of the matchups. Regardless of whether you want a full DR package or not, I think it's safe to cut one Flayer and one Nether Shadow.

Chancellor of the Annex has been fantastic as a way to steal back initiative. It also makes a fine DR target.

Flayer solves most of the problems that Angel would, but I had the sideboard space and didn't want to run into something I couldn't deal with. That said, I will likely cut it, as those situations are few and far between.

I've had Leyline of the Void put into play against me twice, once by Mono-Black Dark Depths and once by B/G Pox. Obviously I can't beat it, but if I'm doing my job and staying in the winners' bracket, that shouldn't be an issue. Rest in Peace is a "real" card but I'm seeing more traditional Miracles and Stoneblade online.

Honestly, this deck doesn't lose to Deathrite Shaman (nor would normal Dredge if built correctly), so I don't see why people are putting Dredge down. It's the enchantments that are the issue, but those are rarely played except by the most hateful of people.

I like this deck, will continue to work on it, and it's currently my frontrunner for the MOCS.

I dont know if i agree with cutting the shadow and flayer and griselbrand. Chancellor of the annex in my opinion is just not that great. In addition leyline seems like a bad choice that time walks us. Playing against storm i have just won turn 2 dread return griselbrand dredge the whole deck flayer combo. This has happened time and time again and cutting the DR package limits the explosiveness and consistency of manaless.

[NecroYawgmoth]

So...

I think I want Chancellor of the Annex back in the main.

I apollogize for all my nay-saying, but Deathrite Shaman really seems not as bad, as I thought it is.

Still... I think our 8 outs [Phantasmagorian & Street Wraith] aren't enough to fight them. I really like Contagion [see... I learned how to write it =P], but it is more a pseudo-out, and I like it MUCH more against turn 2 Shamans or Oozes or whatever. With 4 Chancellors main we could get a little edge against combo, and we would have 90,1% chance to open one of 16 outs [if you count Contagion], to really trump the massively overplayed Shaman.

Problem is, what to cut? I tryed to shrink the DR-Package [-1 Griselbro, Flayer, Dread Return], and -1 Shambling Shell.
[Dropping the propabilities from 88,2%/91,6% to 86,1%/89,8%] opening with a dredger. [7/8 cards drawn]

But I am not sure if this is the way to go. I don't see any other cards, that seem cut-able, which is the main problem, IMO. In the past, I'd said Phantasmagorian, but not in these times.

[Mark Sun]

I dont know if i agree with cutting the shadow and flayer and griselbrand. Chancellor of the annex in my opinion is just not that great. In addition leyline seems like a bad choice that time walks us. Playing against storm i have just won turn 2 dread return griselbrand dredge the whole deck flayer combo. This has happened time and time again and cutting the DR package limits the explosiveness and consistency of manaless.

Chancellor is as good as advertised. I have the deck in paper (and Dan online) and we're sort of trading off a little bit each week, keeping the local metagame honest against either of us. It's a DR target in a pinch, it protects us from t1 Deathrite Shaman and helps us "reset" the play/draw position back to favor us. The first time I played the stock list, I knew that I wanted this type of effect. This deck is very explosive, but it always seemed about a turn too slow to get into good position against the DRS decks.

Leylines are pretty necessary, actually, if you don't want to lose to the faster combo decks in the format. Since LED decks are a much larger pillar in the online metagame than on paper, this makes sense. You can say that you can race them all day, but sometimes you just get t2'ed anyways (see Gerry's summary of matches). Leyline loses you a turn, but if you have it in your opener, they probably lose way more than one turn trying to find an answer.

[sherko7]

Another rules question. Do players keep passing priority at end of turn? Say example...

During my opponents end of turn I activate my Phantasmagorian, hold priority, cycle Street Wraith and then my opponent doesn't respond so I dredge with the wraith... After which I respond and activate Phantasmagorian again... After the Phantasmagorian returns to my hand, can I still cast Noxious Revival? Or does it automatically go to my untap step since my opponent decides not to respond?

[GerryT]

Another rules question. Do players keep passing priority at end of turn? Say example...

During my opponents end of turn I activate my Phantasmagorian, hold priority, cycle Street Wraith and then my opponent doesn't respond so I dredge with the wraith... After which I respond and activate Phantasmagorian again... After the Phantasmagorian returns to my hand, can I still cast Noxious Revival? Or does it automatically go to my untap step since my opponent decides not to respond?

It only goes to the next phase after both players pass on an empty stack.

[Darklingske]

Since everything is put on the stack, you can still keep doing stuff.

[sherko7]

Well done - seems you've been having a pretty good run lately!
People must see you and immediately get their GY hate ready:laugh:

I have to ask about Soul Spike. How many are you playing? I assume you only play them out of the side?
Do you find the life gain is worth the extra card exile, compared to Shoal?


You are spot on about this. When people in our area come to the tournaments and see him around, GY hate will surely rise. Not to mention that when he gets paired, his opponents always choose to draw :laugh:

[Jankwolf]

Hello all!
I will be writing a tournament report soon from the experience I gained at NELC over the weekend.
Some minor input to add to the discussion though. Main I will be running 4x Probe as well as 4x Unmask in the main. The biggest problem I had was not getting a Therapy online early enough to disrupt my opponents. Against storm I see Unmask being invaluable. With Probe, not only does it give manaless more explosive power behind it but it also makes Therapy that much more threatening. I will be posting my newest list here soon that has the ability to win on turn two more reliably.

[BOSCA]

I have seen some manaless variants online.
http://www.mtgpulse.com/search#[informat=4&witharchetype=63]

[slave]

Hi all,
Could you please help me with some specifics with Manaless Dredge?
I know the deck well fairly well, but lately I've been getting some questions about the technical stuff and I'm not that sure of a few things!

Let's say i begin turn one on the draw. Draw a card.
8 cards, end of turn I discard down to 7 - is it the clean up step or the end step this happens?

Now once I've discarded down to 7 cards at the end of my own turn 1, I can then cycle a Street Wraith or activate Phantasmagorian (or both).
Can these two lines of play be used in the clean up step?

Phants uses the stack, but does Street Wraith use the stack when you cycle?
I always assumed so....
(I ask because of Extirpate states no other cards may be placed on the stack)

Cheers!

[Shawon]

Hi all,
Could you please help me with some specifics with Manaless Dredge?
I know the deck well fairly well, but lately I've been getting some questions about the technical stuff and I'm not that sure of a few things!

Let's say i begin turn one on the draw. Draw a card.
8 cards, end of turn I discard down to 7 - is it the clean up step or the end step this happens?

Now once I've discarded down to 7 cards at the end of my own turn 1, I can then cycle a Street Wraith or activate Phantasmagorian (or both).
Can these two lines of play be used in the clean up step?

Phants uses the stack, but does Street Wraith use the stack when you cycle?
I always assumed so....
(I ask because of Extirpate states no other cards may be placed on the stack)

Cheers!

You discard at the clean up step, which is after the end step. No spells or abilities can be activated at the time of the cleanup step. You can activate Phantasmagorian + Street Wraith during your end step, but it would probably be your next end step after your first turn because you had to skip your end step to go to the cleanup in order to discard.

Cycling, in general, is an activated ability, so yes Street Wraith uses the stack if you cycle it.

[werlin]

1st, hi everyone, i'm new to the forum :smile:

secondly, i have a question.. how does manaless tipycally deals with mulligans? since, unless i'm missing something, i don't see a manner of discarding a single card without getting up to 8

3rd i really like this list:
maindeck: 60
4 Golgari gravetroll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 dakmor salvage
4 ichorid
4 narcomoeba
4 nether shadow
4 bloodghast
4 phantasmagorian
4 streetwraith
4 gitaxian probe
4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
4 dread return
2 griselbrand
2 flayer of the hatebound

SB: 15
4 dryad arbor
4 reverent silence
2 natures claim
1 verdant catacombs
1 forest
3 soul spike

but i haven't yet managed to win one post board.. how do you guys normally manage to do it with all the hate? i don't seem to have as much trouble with the l.e.d. version..

what about this sb?
4 soul spike
4 bump in the night
4 dryad arbor
3 putrid imp

why not try to bypass the hate altogether? make a few dents where you can and stick'em with some spikes and bumps?

[Jankwolf]

4 Golgari gravetroll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 Unmask
4 ichorid
4 narcomoeba
4 nether shadow
4 phantasmagorian
4 streetwraith
3 gitaxian probe
4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
4 dread return
3 griselbrand
2 flayer of the hatebound
4 Dryad Arbor

Side:
2 Forest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Natures Claim
3 Reverent Silence
4 Sickening Shoul or Contagion

I'm not a huge fan of Bloodghast and Drakmor Salvage. I haven't tested the above list out yet but I like being aggressive and being proactive by disrupting key pieces in their hand. While maintaining explosive power. I've played this deck for a few months now and I have notice one thing. The longer the game plays out for manaless the worse the game gets for the dredge player.

Ill have to correct my post later. There is only supposed to be 3 g.probe.

[Shadowmap]

@werlin There is almost no reason to ever mulligan with this deck, because as you noted you cannot discard until you hit 8 cards so a mulligan is a timewalk. This has been extensively discussed in the thread, and there have been a couple scenarios mentioned that might actually demand a mulligan.



4 Golgari gravetroll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 Unmask
4 ichorid
4 narcomoeba
4 nether shadow
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 phantasmagorian
4 streetwraith
3 gitaxian probe
4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
4 dread return
3 griselbrand
2 flayer of the hatebound

Side:
2 Forest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Natures Claim
3 Reverent Silence
4 Sickening Shoul or Contagion



The 6 Probes is obviously a mistake, and you seem to be missing a 4 of in the maindeck unless I'm misscounting?

[werlin]

thx Shadowmap :wink:

may you give me the general outlines of those extreme situations?

[TerribleTim68]

. . .I have notice one thing. The longer the game plays out for manaless the worse the game gets for the dredge player. . .

I don't agree. I've played this deck in tournaments and find that the longer the game goes the better positioned I was. Typically, Legacy decks come out of the gates pretty fast. If you can hang with them they run out of gas while this deck never did. The only thing that stopped me from playing it was the intense amount of maindeck GY hate in my local meta. But when they weren't expecting it or they blinked, I usually ran them over since they can't interact with 90% of this deck.

As for the mulligan discussion, you need to go back through the thread. It's in there. But basically, if you run the standard list you shouldn't have to worry about it. I run Hollywood's standard list with only minimal SB changes and I've NEVER mulliganed. You're better off NOT mulliganing and learning how to play with what you drew, PERIOD!!!! Seriously, that's the best advice we can give you. Just keep your 7 and go from there and learn how to manage it. Don't dwell on "when should I mulligan", just go with the 7 you drew.

[Jankwolf]

I don't agree. I've played this deck in tournaments and find that the longer the game goes the better positioned I was. Typically, Legacy decks come out of the gates pretty fast. If you can hang with them they run out of gas while this deck never did. The only thing that stopped me from playing it was the intense amount of maindeck GY hate in my local meta. But when they weren't expecting it or they blinked, I usually ran them over since they can't interact with 90% of this deck.

As for the mulligan discussion, you need to go back through the thread. It's in there. But basically, if you run the standard list you shouldn't have to worry about it. I run Hollywood's standard list with only minimal SB changes and I've NEVER mulliganed. You're better off NOT mulliganing and learning how to play with what you drew, PERIOD!!!! Seriously, that's the best advice we can give you. Just keep your 7 and go from there and learn how to manage it. Don't dwell on "when should I mulligan", just go with the 7 you drew.

I've mulled with 0 dredge cards in hand and came out on top. That may be luck on my part. I should have clarified with my longer games comment. That only applys to post board. Allowing them to dig for more hate is a no go especially if we get stuck trying to deal with a Leyline or RIP.

[slave]

I'll back up Terrible time here, mulligan = :cry:

Post board the gamestate is all about what biz your opponent can top deck to beat you.
Therapy can do enough to let you DDD enough to not even care, but going all in (less than 7 cards in hand) is something I usually don't do unless I'm winning on THAT turn, post board.

Probe is a card I want to run, but I just always find myself needing stuff other than more speed. It's always the first card I would board out, meaning I have to question why it's in my deck to start with.

[rektareloaded]

I don't agree. I've played this deck in tournaments and find that the longer the game goes the better positioned I was. Typically, Legacy decks come out of the gates pretty fast. If you can hang with them they run out of gas while this deck never did. The only thing that stopped me from playing it was the intense amount of maindeck GY hate in my local meta. But when they weren't expecting it or they blinked, I usually ran them over since they can't interact with 90% of this deck.

As for the mulligan discussion, you need to go back through the thread. It's in there. But basically, if you run the standard list you shouldn't have to worry about it. I run Hollywood's standard list with only minimal SB changes and I've NEVER mulliganed. You're better off NOT mulliganing and learning how to play with what you drew, PERIOD!!!! Seriously, that's the best advice we can give you. Just keep your 7 and go from there and learn how to manage it. Don't dwell on "when should I mulligan", just go with the 7 you drew.

i have to agree with TerribleTim68 on this. I played this deck too for a long time now, the longer it gets the better. why? aside from doing your griselbrand no jutsu thing... your recurring creatures would eventually show up, beat them up with ichorids, or build your own "the walking dead" strategy with bridge from below. there's just so little your opponent can do against you. most of the decks cant interact with it. even deathrite shaman is having a hardtime against this deck specially if they're not familiar with the build. :tongue: . i'm also a fan of dakmor/bloodghast package.

for mulligan. its rare for this deck to mulligan unless you dont have at least 1 dredger (out of 15-16 dredger cards) in hand .

[Michael Keller]

Made the Finals of our local event with Manaless Dredge. I'll post details from it tomorrow.

[Michael Keller]

Here were my match-ups from this last Thursday:

Burn [W: 2-0]
Storm [L: 1-2]
Storm [W: 2-1]
U/w StoneBlade [W: 2-0]
Undercity Combo [W: 2-1]
Storm [L: 0-2]

My article this week will be covering Manaless a little more extensively, with my new list as well.

Also just picked up my third Beta Nether Shadow!

[slave]

Congrats Hollywood. Sucks you came up against Storm so often.
Beating U/W Stoneblade must have been great! I've been pummelled by that deck often.:mad:
I haven't seen Undercity combo yet... Undercity Informer looks interesting, I'm curious how this matchup went.

Storm is almost non-existent around me, might have something to do with Legacy being an outrageously Blue format here.
Is Storm that common right now for you, or is it just bad luck?

[Michael Keller]

Congrats Hollywood. Sucks you came up against Storm so often.
Beating U/W Stoneblade must have been great! I've been pummelled by that deck often.:mad:
I haven't seen Undercity combo yet... Undercity Informer looks interesting, I'm curious how this matchup went.

Storm is almost non-existent around me, might have something to do with Legacy being an outrageously Blue format here.
Is Storm that common right now for you, or is it just bad luck?

Storm is practically everywhere in my meta right now. I'm running Manaless to absorb the testing and see what sideboards work best. The match-up on paper looks awful, but it's a lot closer than you'd think. Fortunately, my board is ready for Storm right now.

[sherko7]

Need... Hollywood's... New... Manaless... List...:tongue:

Hope its a really HUGE change! That would give me something to toy around :)

I'm finally selling my LEDs to pickup duals for a new deck. I'm really loving how Manaless plays, and I've decided it will be the Dredge deck I'll be keeping. Honestly before building up the Manaless list I certainly thought it was the inferior, more linear, less challenging deck among the two Dredge variants. I was wrong... It fights through hate better, has quite a few options and is of course more consistent. Although the LED Dredge can be more explosive most of the time, I'd trade it for consistency any day.:laugh:

[Michael Keller]

Need... Hollywood's... New... Manaless... List...:tongue:

Hope its a really HUGE change! That would give me something to toy around :)

I'm finally selling my LEDs to pickup duals for a new deck. I'm really loving how Manaless plays, and I've decided it will be the Dredge deck I'll be keeping. Honestly before building up the Manaless list I certainly thought it was the inferior, more linear, less challenging deck among the two Dredge variants. I was wrong... It fights through hate better, has quite a few options and is of course more consistent. Although the LED Dredge can be more explosive most of the time, I'd trade it for consistency any day.:laugh:

Well, the only thing I've changed around is the board. The main hasn't changed because it's ridiculously consistent and I'm not fixing or changing anything out of boredom. The article tomorrow will open up a lot about the sideboard.

[Ghiwo]

Need... Hollywood's... New... Manaless... List...:tongue:

Hope its a really HUGE change! That would give me something to toy around :)

I'm finally selling my LEDs to pickup duals for a new deck. I'm really loving how Manaless plays, and I've decided it will be the Dredge deck I'll be keeping. Honestly before building up the Manaless list I certainly thought it was the inferior, more linear, less challenging deck among the two Dredge variants. I was wrong... It fights through hate better, has quite a few options and is of course more consistent. Although the LED Dredge can be more explosive most of the time, I'd trade it for consistency any day.:laugh:

Hi everyone!
I'm new to Manaless Dredge, I play LedDredge since a lot of time instead. I'm really interested in this deck, because it's different, and it seems a lot fun and unfair. I tried it some dozens of times, but still I have some questions to ask, because I know that there's an answer, but I'm not able to identify it properly.

I quoted Sherko because he says all the things I would like to ask.. Can someone tell me why Manaless is more consistent than LedDredge, and, especially can someone tell me why Manaless fights better through hate?
I can understand that the threat density helps a lot against surgical effects, also I learned how to avoid DeathriteShaman, but what about Tormod's Crypt effects? Ok, you don't overcommit, but after the Crypt has been blown up how can you recover without any Careful Study/Faithless looting/Cephalid Coliseum? Please, explain me this, because I really can't imagine a scenario different from you go up to 8 and start discarding again.. So slow...
Also, I read that the deck is really fast... I tried it, and probably I am missing something, because the deck seems to me everything but fast! The only "accelerator" we have is Street Wraith, and if we don't have it in our first 8 we are pretty much dredging 1 card per turn until we hit a griselbrand.. Is that fast? Please, tell me what I'm missing!
That's all for now, I thank a lot anyone who would like to reply me, and I'm really sorry for the noob questions!
Bye :)

[Michael Keller]

I quoted Sherko because he says all the things I would like to ask.. Can someone tell me why Manaless is more consistent than LedDredge, and, especially can someone tell me why Manaless fights better through hate?

Manaless Dredge has a higher threat-density and more ways of recurring creatures onto the battlefield. It focuses primarily on a combo finish in conjunction with Dread Return as opposed to LED Dredge grinding games out. Speed is a big difference in this comparison, but what Manaless lacks in speed it definitely makes up for in consistency. It also avoids interaction - something that can be incredibly important in counter-heavy metas.

However, Manaless has a harder time fighting through varied types of hate like Grafdigger's Cage and Leyline of the Void. Conversely, it has a much easier time fighting through hate like Deathrite Shaman and Surgical Extraction with the multitude of threats the deck possesses and hate-dodging utility like Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian.


I can understand that the threat density helps a lot against surgical effects, also I learned how to avoid DeathriteShaman, but what about Tormod's Crypt effects? Ok, you don't overcommit, but after the Crypt has been blown up how can you recover without any Careful Study/Faithless looting/Cephalid Coliseum? Please, explain me this, because I really can't imagine a scenario different from you go up to 8 and start discarding again.. So slow...
Also, I read that the deck is really fast... I tried it, and probably I am missing something, because the deck seems to me everything but fast! The only "accelerator" we have is Street Wraith, and if we don't have it in our first 8 we are pretty much dredging 1 card per turn until we hit a griselbrand.. Is that fast? Please, tell me what I'm missing!
That's all for now, I thank a lot anyone who would like to reply me, and I'm really sorry for the noob questions!
Bye :)

The deck can fight through Crypt with some relative ease. Some players will blow the Crypt too early and others will wait on it until they get the most value out of it. Either way, it's a one-time effect that can in some instances be hard to recover from. Otherwise, a simple discard will do the trick. Thorough testing and an understanding how to play around hate takes time and practice - two things you're going to need to succeed with this deck.

[kwis]

The deck got a bit of visibility on SCG the other day.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25634_Traditional-And-Manaless-Dredge.html


He talks about cutting the RS package from the board and adding 4x Chancellor of the Annex and the 4th Shambling Shell to the main. He accomplished this by cutting the Creature removal from the main as well as 1 of the Flayers.


It seems like the deck should have a much worse match up against Deathrite than he thinks it should while not drastically increasing his matchup against storm combo. When you consider that you're only going to open up a Chancellor 40%? of the time and every Mulligan is a time walk it seems inefficient.

[Michael Keller]

New article is up!

[Final Fortune]

The deck got a bit of visibility on SCG the other day.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25634_Traditional-And-Manaless-Dredge.html


He talks about cutting the RS package from the board and adding 4x Chancellor of the Annex and the 4th Shambling Shell to the main. He accomplished this by cutting the Creature removal from the main as well as 1 of the Flayers.


It seems like the deck should have a much worse match up against Deathrite than he thinks it should while not drastically increasing his matchup against storm combo. When you consider that you're only going to open up a Chancellor 40%? of the time and every Mulligan is a time walk it seems inefficient.

Chancellor of the Annex isn't intended to win the Storm match up for you, it's intended to Time Walk you into your Unmask or Cabal Therapy, which should subsequently Time Walk you into Dread Return -> Chancellor of the Annex for the lock. Also Chancellor of the Annex is just generally good vs anything that can race us like Goblin Lackey, go or Elves.dec

@Hollywood

I think you really have to bite the bullet and cut the lands and the Reverent Silences from the SB in order to concentrate on improving your deck vs a specific match up, Storm or Show&Tell for example, instead of preparing for a card that nobody really plays anymore (Leyline of the Void) and doesn't protect us from every card that'd threaten to blow us out anyway (Grafdigger's Cage.)

We shouldn't fear the hate, we should just focus on improving our worst match ups vs other binary decks because Storm, Show&Tell and even to a lesser extent Reanimator are very winnable with the right SB.

[Michael Keller]

Chancellor of the Annex isn't intended to win the Storm match up for you, it's intended to Time Walk you into your Unmask or Cabal Therapy, which should subsequently Time Walk you into Dread Return -> Chancellor of the Annex for the lock. Also Chancellor of the Annex is just generally good vs anything that can race us like Goblin Lackey, go or Elves.dec

@Hollywood

I think you really have to bite the bullet and cut the lands and the Reverent Silences from the SB in order to concentrate on improving your deck vs a specific match up, Storm or Show&Tell for example, instead of preparing for a card that nobody really plays anymore (Leyline of the Void) and doesn't protect us from every card that'd threaten to blow us out anyway (Grafdigger's Cage.)

We shouldn't fear the hate, we should just focus on improving our worst match ups vs other binary decks because Storm, Show&Tell and even to a lesser extent Reanimator are very winnable with the right SB.

Okay, so what do you propose?

[BOSCA]

Add full set of Probe md, Chancellor and maybe only one Iona.
You may also try Gilded Drake in sb but Angel of Despair seems more useful.

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
44 creatures

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

Hollywood in your opinion if i add speed with Probe can cut one Griselbrand ?

[sconnell]

New article is up!
In the storm example, the opponent Gitaxian probes turn 1 seeing Mindbreak Trap and then walks right into the trap a turn later. This seems like bad play on the storm player's part - you suggest they used Ponder to find Ad Nauseum or mana, when perhaps they should have been searching for a silence or a discard spell. Maybe they're assuming that you're going to go off on the next turn, and the best shot at stopping them is to try and go off.


This is why Chancellor alone might not be worth it in this match-up. The Storm player can afford to pay a mana for their cards like Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal and Gitaxian Probe, but when they do and pass the turn you’re still discarding and waiting the next turn to try and kill them (or rip their hand apart). With Trap you can just wreck them with nothing else to worry about.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get across here. The scariest thing about Storm, in my experience, is that they can win in the first couple of turns, before manaless usually has been able to do much. Unless they have a turn 1 win, Storm generally wants to be casting a Ponder/Brainstorm type-card to set up for turn 2. Forcing them to blunt a Chancellor instead means they don't get a nicely set up turn 2, which probably means they can't win, and they spend turn 2 setting up for turn 3, so their first real shot at winning is turn 3. Turn 3 is the stage of the game where manaless also has a decent shot at doing broken things, so Chancellor alone can have a big impact on the game. Of course, sometimes (like in this example), they'll have enough mana and business spells to just go off.

Trap can be dealt with via Duress and Silence, so you "nothing else to worry about" seems to be overstating things a bit.

Perhaps the point you were trying to make was that, in the example given, Chancellor wasn't enough to stop a turn 2 kill, but Mindbreak Trap alone would have more of an impact on the game. Perhaps, but perhaps not. Suppose you have Trap but not Chancellor. Turn 1 the opponent probably goes Probe->land->Ponder. Since they know you have trap, they are now searching for a discard spell or silence to knock out Trap before you go off (which is one more card and one more mana than Chancellor, but remember they got to cast Ponder turn 1.) We then discard Phantasmagorian. Turn 2, maybe the opponent's put together a solution for the Trap plus a kill. If not, they probably cast some setup spells. We then have a good shot at killing or massively disrupting them on our turn 2, but maybe they can brainstorm something relevant to the top and win on the next turn, if we aren't comboing them out.


There really is no contest between Force Spike and a big Mind Twist in this match-up, which for all intents and purposes is what Chancellor and Mindbreak Trap represent here. With Trap you’re depleting an opponent of their Storm buildup and knocking out their key spells when they’re cast. That’s huge and something that simply cannot be ignored.


Again, I'm not quite sure what you're getting across. Are you suggesting that Trap is the better card if you only have 4 sideboard slots for Storm (and, I guess, High Tide) in the board? That might be the case, but Chancellor can also be useful against other decks with powerful turn-1 plays (eg Goblins), which might be a reason to end up playing Chancellor over Trap if you have limited sideboard slots.

Finally - with 4 Reverent Silence / 3 lands / 4 Mindbreak Trap / 4 Chancellor in the board, you're effectively going fearless against Grafdigger's cage. That might be a legit metagame call, but I wonder if 4 Nature's Claim might be better than 4 Reverent Silence. Reverent Silence is much better than Nature's Claim against Leyline of the Void/Rest in Peace (waiting a turn to cast Claim because your land has summoning sickness sucks), but is that enough to justify having nothing against Cage?

[Michael Keller]

In the storm example, the opponent Gitaxian probes turn 1 seeing Mindbreak Trap and then walks right into the trap a turn later. This seems like bad play on the storm player's part - you suggest they used Ponder to find Ad Nauseum or mana, when perhaps they should have been searching for a silence or a discard spell. Maybe they're assuming that you're going to go off on the next turn, and the best shot at stopping them is to try and go off.

In case you missed the thread where I had posted the article, I explained that scenario. My opponent's hand was predicated on an all-in type of scenario. The point is to illustrate the strength of Trap's potential. It might seem like my opponent made a bad play, but the fact is they were legitimately screwed from the start with Ichorid, dredger, Street Wraith and Cabal Therapy. Your point is valid in that they thought I was going to go off the following turn - so it's either milk the Trap out of my hand and hope I jump the gun on it or bank on me whiffing on my dredge, which I didn't.

My opponent in that scenario trying to find a discard spell or something else to buy them time would be effectively moot if I'm able to rip their hand apart over the course of one to three turns. I managed to hit on my first Therapy blind by taking Dark Ritual out of their hand. This was enough to stunt their ability to go off - even in the face of a Trap.


I'm not sure what you're trying to get across here. The scariest thing about Storm, in my experience, is that they can win in the first couple of turns, before manaless usually has been able to do much. Unless they have a turn 1 win, Storm generally wants to be casting a Ponder/Brainstorm type-card to set up for turn 2. Forcing them to blunt a Chancellor instead means they don't get a nicely set up turn 2, which probably means they can't win, and they spend turn 2 setting up for turn 3, so their first real shot at winning is turn 3. Turn 3 is the stage of the game where manaless also has a decent shot at doing broken things, so Chancellor alone can have a big impact on the game. Of course, sometimes (like in this example), they'll have enough mana and business spells to just go off.

Trap can be dealt with via Duress and Silence, so you "nothing else to worry about" seems to be overstating things a bit.

Not quite.

Trap can be dealt with via Duress or Silence, but you're predicating your example on what is likely a scenario within the first two turns. Otherwise, they're not going to have a hand. Aside from that, if an opponent just happens to have the nuts with Silence or a discard spell, then none of this really matters because that's just ridiculous to beat.

When I say there's nothing else to worry about, I meant just that. Storm can't just walk straight into an opponent knowing the blowout is waiting, but if that's their only shot at milking it from your hand before you discard into Street Wraith into recursion and into discard, then it doesn't matter. This is also all based on a Chancellor effect to start the game, because your opponent isn't Duressing or Silencing you at all - at least not likely.

You're also partially right and partially wrong about turn three in Manaless Dredge being the stage of the game where it has a decent shot at doing broken things. As soon as you discard a Troll or Phantasmagorian in conjunction with Street Wraith EOT--> holding priority, you're fundamentally (and for all intents and purposes) winning the game then and there. Chancellor's biggest impact on the game comes on the first turn where an opponent realistically has to drive head-first into it or risk countering a key spell, and if they do, they're tapping their lands out and are opening themselves up to some serious damage on your turn two. With a depleted hand and no realistic chance of recovery, turn three (if it gets to that) becomes a "cleanup" situation where an opponent is just trying to keep their head above water.

Meanwhile, you're turning your deck sideways. This is why we run Dryad Arbor: to mitigate situations where we need that creature to Dread Return faster.

The third turn is generally where Manaless has established presence and card advantage with Bridge from Below and Cabal Therapy. This is why the first two turns are realistically where the game will be determined - either you're blowing them out with Therapies and Traps or they're just going to Silence-Duress you and goldfish you then and there. Turn three is acceptable as a fatal turn for your opponent if they can't deal with your deck, but if you're playing against Combo and they know they have to either win then and there or risk losing the next turn, then they'll do it. Mindbreak Trap will cause a huge headache for Storm players because realistically how are they supposed to know when to go off or not?

What if they don't have a Probe or discard spell?

And, if they're casting Silence during your turn to stop you from ripping their hand apart, you've got Trap ready to go the following turn.


Perhaps the point you were trying to make was that, in the example given, Chancellor wasn't enough to stop a turn 2 kill, but Mindbreak Trap alone would have more of an impact on the game. Perhaps, but perhaps not. Suppose you have Trap but not Chancellor. Turn 1 the opponent probably goes Probe->land->Ponder. Since they know you have trap, they are now searching for a discard spell or silence to knock out Trap before you go off (which is one more card and one more mana than Chancellor, but remember they got to cast Ponder turn 1.) We then discard Phantasmagorian. Turn 2, maybe the opponent's put together a solution for the Trap plus a kill. If not, they probably cast some setup spells. We then have a good shot at killing or massively disrupting them on our turn 2, but maybe they can brainstorm something relevant to the top and win on the next turn, if we aren't comboing them out.

I...agree? I'm not quite sure what you're trying to prove here, because I agree with all of your points. However, I'm still not going to be main-decking Chancellor of the Annex. The format may have Storm in it right now, but it's still not a majority. And the truth is Manaless has a good match-up against a lot of decks in the format. You can ask Bryant Cook if you don't believe me - this is a match-up that always looks much worse on paper than it really is. It takes a lot of setting up and some luck to actually kill someone on turn one, and even more luck to kill someone with some form of protection. If the turn gets passed to us and we have a turn with action, it's going to hurt the Storm player immensely - either suffering from a Dread Return or a rash of Therapies bludgeoning their hand.


Again, I'm not quite sure what you're getting across. Are you suggesting that Trap is the better card if you only have 4 sideboard slots for Storm (and, I guess, High Tide) in the board? That might be the case, but Chancellor can also be useful against other decks with powerful turn-1 plays (eg Goblins), which might be a reason to end up playing Chancellor over Trap if you have limited sideboard slots.

It's obvious what I was getting across in the article and all my points, or at least it should be. I've been clear about this before: aside from Storm, Manaless already has a decent to good match-up against most of the format with removal as a key source of protection against hate-bears. We're also living in a Jund/Junk-infested format, and still maintaining an answer to Deathrite Shaman and those power-plays like turn-one Lackey is critical. I understand what Chancellor does from a basic standpoint in that it counters those turn one plays, and I used it myself for a very long time. But the format plays more creatures right now than it does Tendrils of Agony and I want to be proactive in being able to knock-off those threats or possibly my own to enable a faster Dread Return.

And yes, I'm saying that Trap is strictly the better card post-board if you're dedicating only four slots to it. I'm sure you would agree that Cabal Therapy is sick in this match-up, so supplementing them with four more Traps should be enough without over-committing slots to a match-up that will likely pass in the coming weeks to a month or two. I'm testing Chancellor as an auxiliary to Trap, and so far it has been decent. But I'm not completely sold on it yet, even though I have used the card extensively before in an older version of the deck.


Finally - with 4 Reverent Silence / 3 lands / 4 Mindbreak Trap / 4 Chancellor in the board, you're effectively going fearless against Grafdigger's cage. That might be a legit metagame call, but I wonder if 4 Nature's Claim might be better than 4 Reverent Silence. Reverent Silence is much better than Nature's Claim against Leyline of the Void/Rest in Peace (waiting a turn to cast Claim because your land has summoning sickness sucks), but is that enough to justify having nothing against Cage?

Cage is Cage and this deck has never had an easy time fighting it. You have to get a Forest that sticks and a Nature's Claim in hand to fight it, and that's hard to do. My meta rarely sees it, so I don't board for it. Perhaps the sideboard needs to be overhauled again.

That being said, I do not like losing to Leyline of the Void (this opinion dates back years ago if you can find it in this thread), and Rest in Peace is a thing right now. Anyone can tailor their sideboard the way they so choose, so I'm just going to say I'm tinkering with a bunch of configs and seeing what works best. But I'd like to hear peoples' ideas.

[ykpon]

I don't really see any reason not to run maindeck Chancellor over removal. Chancellor's upsides are innumerable:

a) unlike Shoal/Contagion, Chancellor is pretty useful in absolutely every matchup you might meet
b) Chancellor answers a lot of non-creature things we care about like Thoughtseize, Ponder, Enlightened Tutor and many more
c) it also answers creatures and usually is even better than removal against them (especially against Deathrite Shaman or with some Bridges in the graveyard)
d) while non-black, it's still a creature for your Shadows
e) it sometimes forces your opponents to 'mulligan' just to be able to play magic with you (e.g. to waste a Brainstorm to be able to cast a turn two Stoneforge Mystic)
f) it's sometimes a good Dread Return target (e.g. against Leyline of Sanctity + Supreme Verdict)

And it looks like there are only two minor downsides:

a) Chancellor is a bad topdeck turn one
b) no more cool tricks involving killing your own creatures

I don't think wasting sideboard slots with Chancellors makes any sense. It isn't "a card against storm" at all, it's a card againt everything.



Btw I wonder what's your opinion on another question. Imagine you're going to a tourney and are absolutely sure this time it would be correct to cut Claims and Silences completely. Will you still play a full set of Dryad Arbors maindeck? Shield Spheres? Gitaxian Probes?

[Michael Keller]

I don't really see any reason not to run maindeck Chancellor over removal. Chancellor's upsides are innumerable:

a) unlike Shoal/Contagion, Chancellor is pretty useful in absolutely every matchup you might meet
b) Chancellor answers a lot of non-creature things we care about like Thoughtseize, Ponder, Enlightened Tutor and many more
c) it also answers creatures and usually is even better than removal against them (especially against Deathrite Shaman or with some Bridges in the graveyard)
d) while non-black, it's still a creature for your Shadows
e) it sometimes forces your opponents to 'mulligan' just to be able to play magic with you (e.g. to waste a Brainstorm to be able to cast a turn two Stoneforge Mystic)
f) it's sometimes a good Dread Return target (e.g. against Leyline of Sanctity + Supreme Verdict)

And it looks like there are only two minor downsides:

a) Chancellor is a bad topdeck turn one
b) no more cool tricks involving killing your own creatures

I don't think wasting sideboard slots with Chancellors makes any sense. It isn't "a card against storm" at all, it's a card againt everything.



Btw I wonder what's your opinion on another question. Imagine you're going to a tourney and are absolutely sure this time it would be correct to cut Claims and Silences completely. Will you still play a full set of Dryad Arbors maindeck? Shield Spheres? Gitaxian Probes?

Okay so, let's back up here a minute: I don't want to step over folks' input. I want to hear what you guys would run. I have about ten sideboards I flux through, this is just one for right now.

[sconnell]

Cheers for the response. I think don't think we have any major disagreements, I just didn't quite get what conclusions you were wanting to draw from the article.

I think the storm matchup is a bad one without 8 slots devoted to it (between sideboard and main.) I've been playing 4 Chancellor (only) side against storm, and it doesn't really feel like enough. Having Chancellor in the opening hand is great, and is sometimes (but not always) enough to make the game go long enough so I can really take over. However, there are only 4 in the deck, and you can't mulligan. 4 Mindbreak Trap 4 Chancellor seems to be the best combination to me (especially since Chancellor is useful against other decks.) Whether 4 Chancellor has a place in the main probably comes down to whether you want creature removal main or side. For most metagames, I'd imagine it's main.

I think we're pretty much on the same page that the first couple of turns are going to determine the game against storm. Chancellor might get you one turn, but it probably won't get two. Barring good draws, manaless only really starts doing relevant stuff on turn 3 - so to compete with storm we need to play cards that do stuff on turn 1 and 2.


Cage is Cage and this deck has never had an easy time fighting it. You have to get a Forest that sticks and a Nature's Claim in hand to fight it, and that's hard to do. My meta rarely sees it, so I don't board for it. Perhaps the sideboard needs to be overhauled again.

That being said, I do not like losing to Leyline of the Void (this opinion dates back years ago if you can find it in this thread), and Rest in Peace is a thing right now. Anyone can tailor their sideboard the way they so choose, so I'm just going to say I'm tinkering with a bunch of configs and seeing what works best. But I'd like to hear peoples' ideas.

Yep, your position on going fearless with respect to Leyline has been clear and consistent - which is why I was a bit surprised to see you without a solution to Cage. At least Cage isn't mulliganable to the way Leyline is.

As I said earlier, I think storm needs 8 slots (though I suppose 6 or 7 might be doable, there's no particular reason to stick to multiples of four.) That doesn't leave much room for anti-hate and the lands needed to support it. Basically, we just have to make some hard choices: something has to give, whichever way you look at it. I don't think it's possible to make the deck without some weaknesses - you just get to pick whether you're weaker to storm, cage, enchantments or creatures.

[Final Fortune]

I don't really see any reason not to run maindeck Chancellor over removal. Chancellor's upsides are innumerable:

a) unlike Shoal/Contagion, Chancellor is pretty useful in absolutely every matchup you might meet
b) Chancellor answers a lot of non-creature things we care about like Thoughtseize, Ponder, Enlightened Tutor and many more
c) it also answers creatures and usually is even better than removal against them (especially against Deathrite Shaman or with some Bridges in the graveyard)
d) while non-black, it's still a creature for your Shadows
e) it sometimes forces your opponents to 'mulligan' just to be able to play magic with you (e.g. to waste a Brainstorm to be able to cast a turn two Stoneforge Mystic)
f) it's sometimes a good Dread Return target (e.g. against Leyline of Sanctity + Supreme Verdict)

And it looks like there are only two minor downsides:

a) Chancellor is a bad topdeck turn one
b) no more cool tricks involving killing your own creatures

I don't think wasting sideboard slots with Chancellors makes any sense. It isn't "a card against storm" at all, it's a card againt everything.



Btw I wonder what's your opinion on another question. Imagine you're going to a tourney and are absolutely sure this time it would be correct to cut Claims and Silences completely. Will you still play a full set of Dryad Arbors maindeck? Shield Spheres? Gitaxian Probes?

This, the problem with Manaless Dredge as it is, is that Manaless Dredge hasn't adapated its MD or SB to the printing of Deathrite Shaman and the rise of Jund. Cards like Sickening Shoal and Contagion are unnecessarily two for oneing yourself and double Time Walking you vs Shaman instead of removing Ooze and is essentially a dead card in a non trivial number of match ups compared to Chancellor of the Annex.

Dryad Arbor is just a mediocre card that doesn't do anything signifcant until turn 3, where Unmask is the card that lets you live vs Storm and other combo decks in the MD.

The fundamental problem with Manaless Dredge is that it doesn't interact on turns one and two vs decks that have strategic superiority, MDing Chancellor of the Annex and Unamsk are what solves that problem - at least as much as it can be solved.

I think just -4 Sickening Shoal, -4 Dryad Arbor for +4 Chancellor of the Annex, +4 Unmask and then having a SB of 4 Mindbreak Trap, 4 Angel of Depair and 7x other cards of merrit gives you a much better fighting chance vs Storm.

[rektareloaded]

This, the problem with Manaless Dredge as it is, is that Manaless Dredge hasn't adapated its MD or SB to the printing of Deathrite Shaman and the rise of Jund.
i have to disagree with this mate. i wonder why we need to adapt to the rise of jund? why fear deathrite shaman when using manaless dredge? we have atleast a minimum of 8 cards ( 4 phantasmagorian, 4 streetwraith) as an answer to turn 1 deathrite (for hollywoods build they got 12 cards in MD) and we only need 1!, just 1 to show up.

due to the fact that they have 4 MD GY hate in the form of shaman, some builds dont bring in GY hate in their SB anymore. if you ask me im more afraid of decks who cant use shaman coz for sure they have 5-6 GY hate in their SB specially decks who got access for white mana.


I think just -4 Sickening Shoal, -4 Dryad Arbor for +4 Chancellor of the Annex, +4 Unmask and then having a SB of 4 Mindbreak Trap, 4 Angel of Depair and 7x other cards of merrit gives you a much better fighting chance vs Storm.

I'll only agree to this only if i will see atleast 8 people who "consistently" plays storm in our country and always make it to the top 8, otherwise ill not change our usual SB cards like reverent silence and natures claim, on the other hand i always have a place for chancellor of the annex in my SB but not in MD.


for Unmask.... i think i will only use it if bazaar of baghdad is legal in legacy.. just my 2 cents

[Final Fortune]

i have to disagree with this mate. i wonder why we need to adapt to the rise of jund? why fear deathrite shaman when using manaless dredge? we have atleast a minimum of 8 cards ( 4 phantasmagorian, 4 streetwraith) as an answer to turn 1 deathrite (for hollywoods build they got 12 cards in MD) and we only need 1!, just 1 to show up.

due to the fact that they have 4 MD GY hate in the form of shaman, some builds dont bring in GY hate in their SB anymore. if you ask me im more afraid of decks who cant use shaman coz for sure they have 5-6 GY hate in their SB specially decks who got access for white mana.



I'll only agree to this only if i will see atleast 8 people who "consistently" plays storm in our country and always make it to the top 8, otherwise ill not change our usual SB cards like reverent silence and natures claim, on the other hand i always have a place for chancellor of the annex in my SB but not in MD.

cage isnt a problem for players who's using the dakmor/bloodghast package coz they can still cast their 2 cc , 3cc, 4 cc creatures and rely on bridge, but then again destroying the cage via arbor and natures claim is better.

It's not a question of adapting the deck vs Jund, it's a question of adapting the deck vs the metagame that Jund has created. Post Deathrite Shaman, players aren't SBing dedicated Dredge hate, Leyline of the Void or Grafdiggers Cage, and they aren't SBing significant graveyard hate in addition to Deathrite Shaman. If nobody is playing dedicated Dredge hate and nobody is playing graveyard hate in addition to Deathrite Shaman, then why should we dedicate 4 MD slots on a completely mediocre MD card like Dryad Arbor and 7 SB slots on a SB card that only answers half of the dedicated Dredge hate anyway? If there are arguably more Storm and S&T decks in a tournament than there are Leylines of the Void, then ask yourself how much utility Dryad Arbor, Fetchlands and Reverent Silence really have. Should we be any less scared of decks that can Storm us out on turn 2 than decks that may SB Leyline of the Void? Because I'd much rather address my win% vs an entire archetype of decks that people are playing than MD and SB 11 cards just to check for any monsters under the bed.

Furthermore, you can't even know if your opponent is or isn't playing Leyline of the Void in his SB for certain, are you going to automatically SB in 7 cards every game 2 and make your deck that much worse just on the off chance he SBs Leyline of the Void? And if you're not automatically SBing in those 7 cards, are you really happy with playing SB cards that you only use in 1/3 of your games? I really don't think playing Dryad Arbor over Chancellor of the Annex and/or Unmask is worth having a marginal chance of beating a deck with Leyline of the Void compared to having a good chance of beating any combo archetype game 1 and a great chance game 2.

The deck has to concentrate on the matchups it can win, not firing back at silver bullets. If you run into the guy SBing 4 Rest of Peace, then it either wasn't your lucky day or you were playing the wrong deck in the first place.

[sherko7]

i have to disagree with this mate. i wonder why we need to adapt to the rise of jund? why fear deathrite shaman when using manaless dredge? we have atleast a minimum of 8 cards ( 4 phantasmagorian, 4 streetwraith) as an answer to turn 1 deathrite (for hollywoods build they got 12 cards in MD) and we only need 1!, just 1 to show up.

due to the fact that they have 4 MD GY hate in the form of shaman, some builds dont bring in GY hate in their SB anymore. if you ask me im more afraid of decks who cant use shaman coz for sure they have 5-6 GY hate in their SB specially decks who got access for white mana.



I'll only agree to this only if i will see atleast 8 people who "consistently" plays storm in our country and always make it to the top 8, otherwise ill not change our usual SB cards like reverent silence and natures claim, on the other hand i always have a place for chancellor of the annex in my SB but not in MD.


for Unmask.... i think i will only use it if bazaar of baghdad is legal in legacy.. just my 2 cents

This is true. I play in the same area as this master dredger. We only get an avg of 2 people playing storm per 50-80 player tourney. I have simply decided to give up boarding in against Storm and rather focus on playing against the more dominant archetypes/decks (i.e. DRS.dec, GSZ.dec). Sure, we have a healthy matchup against those decks pre-board, and some people even like to argue that we have more than 60% positive matchup against those decks seeing as they would need to mull into turn 1 DRS to have an edge.

Timewalking myself twice for the sake of killing of a turn one DRS is no problem. Like Hollywood said, they won't be able to win against me during those 2 turns, even if their DRS survives somehow. I'm still playing the 4 Claim 4 Rev Silence 7 land 4 Removal SB and I'm liking it against the current meta. Chancellor MD though is something that might be worth a try. :laugh:

[SBGpinas]

It's not a question of adapting the deck vs Jund, it's a question of adapting the deck vs the metagame that Jund has created. Post Deathrite Shaman, players aren't SBing dedicated Dredge hate, Leyline of the Void or Grafdiggers Cage, and they aren't SBing significant graveyard hate in addition to Deathrite Shaman. If nobody is playing dedicated Dredge hate and nobody is playing graveyard hate in addition to Deathrite Shaman, then why should we dedicate 4 MD slots on a completely mediocre MD card like Dryad Arbor and 7 SB slots on a SB card that only answers half of the dedicated Dredge hate anyway? If there are arguably more Storm and S&T decks in a tournament than there are Leylines of the Void, then ask yourself how much utility Dryad Arbor, Fetchlands and Reverent Silence really have. Should we be any less scared of decks that can Storm us out on turn 2 than decks that may SB Leyline of the Void? Because I'd much rather address my win% vs an entire archetype of decks that people are playing than MD and SB 11 cards just to check for any monsters under the bed.

Furthermore, you can't even know if your opponent is or isn't playing Leyline of the Void in his SB for certain, are you going to automatically SB in 7 cards every game 2 and make your deck that much worse just on the off chance he SBs Leyline of the Void? And if you're not automatically SBing in those 7 cards, are you really happy with playing SB cards that you only use in 1/3 of your games? I really don't think playing Dryad Arbor over Chancellor of the Annex and/or Unmask is worth having a marginal chance of beating a deck with Leyline of the Void compared to having a good chance of beating any combo archetype game 1 and a great chance game 2.

The deck has to concentrate on the matchups it can win, not firing back at silver bullets. If you run into the guy SBing 4 Rest of Peace, then it either wasn't your lucky day or you were playing the wrong deck in the first place.

Just my two cents...

I understand your point, and what you say is valid in a meta where everybody switches decks every event... everybody's playing the flavor of the month, thus everybody else is dedicating their SB to beat that one deck.

Not so where I come from...

Where I come from (and rektareloaded and sherko7), there is not one deck to beat. People generally stick to what they know, even if there's a new DTB in town. UW Miracles players still play UW, Burn players still play burn, and more importantly, Dredge players still play Dredge.

Thus, everybody and their mother dedicates slots in their 15 for Dredge-hoser cards. What changes with every event is the number of these cards in the SB, but they never go away - even when it is detrimental to their deck design. It's because nobody wants an auto-loss when they do face Dredge.

So in our meta, we always expect everybody to playing a few copies of either Grafdigger's Cage, Leyline of the Void and/or Rest in Peace. And so far, we've been right. So we have no choice but to prepare Silver bullets, because nearly 100% of the time, our opponent will play dedicated Dredge hate during game 2 and 3.

[slave]

...in our meta, we always expect everybody to playing a few copies of either Grafdigger's Cage, Leyline of the Void and/or Rest in Peace. And so far, we've been right. So we have no choice but to prepare Silver bullets, because nearly 100% of the time, our opponent will play dedicated Dredge hate during game 2 and 3.

Makes perfect sense.
I don't get a lot of Storm either, so my side is similar to yours. Over here it's very blue and combo happy.
But I do like the discussion about beating Storm :smile:

I don't think I could drop the Dryad Arbors though, it saved me being stuck on zero or two creatures plenty, regardless of the whole sideboarding for answers blah blah.
I'm gonna have to start recording my win/loss against certain decks with the deck/side I'm running.

Final Fortune, I'll give your deck/side a spin, see how I go with it.
Curious to see how Annex/Unmask do in the same deck with side of Angel/Mindbreak....

[ykpon]

Dryad Arbor is just a mediocre card that doesn't do anything signifcant until turn 3, where Unmask is the card that lets you live vs Storm and other combo decks in the MD.

The fundamental problem with Manaless Dredge is that it doesn't interact on turns one and two vs decks that have strategic superiority, MDing Chancellor of the Annex and Unamsk are what solves that problem - at least as much as it can be solved.

I think just -4 Sickening Shoal, -4 Dryad Arbor for +4 Chancellor of the Annex, +4 Unmask and then having a SB of 4 Mindbreak Trap, 4 Angel of Depair and 7x other cards of merrit gives you a much better fighting chance vs Storm.

I'm still not sure about Arbors. I understand they are really mediocre without green sb but cutting them completely means cutting 1/4 of all our creatures while early Dread Return is important in a lot of matchups (especially against Storm).

However probably Dryad isn't the best creature you can run here. It's obviously better than Memnite, but how about Shield Sphere which can give us a couple of additional turns against aggro? Another option is Gitaxian Probe which isn't a creature but digs for other creatures and seems to be better against Storm. Dryad is uncounterable and sometimes allows to pay for Daze/Cursecatcher though.


i have to disagree with this mate. i wonder why we need to adapt to the rise of jund? why fear deathrite shaman when using manaless dredge? we have atleast a minimum of 8 cards ( 4 phantasmagorian, 4 streetwraith) as an answer to turn 1 deathrite (for hollywoods build they got 12 cards in MD) and we only need 1!, just 1 to show up.

Eight isn't enough for one to show up, that's why we run more than 8 dredgers here. Twelve is already a good number but, unlike Chancellor, removal isn't really a good answer to Shaman. You timewalk yourself twice with Shoal, then they timewalk you one more time with Thoughtseize or cast another Shaman and at this point you understand you can't really win this game anymore. And it's even worse against BUG where countering your removal is just a blowout. Chancellor is uncounterable and saves number of cards in your hand, that's why it should be back now when everyone and his mother run Deathrites.

[Final Fortune]

I'm still not sure about Arbors. I understand they are really mediocre without green sb but cutting them completely means cutting 1/4 of all our creatures while early Dread Return is important in a lot of matchups (especially against Storm).

However probably Dryad isn't the best creature you can run here. It's obviously better than Memnite, but how about Shield Sphere which can give us a couple of additional turns against aggro? Another option is Gitaxian Probe which isn't a creature but digs for other creatures and seems to be better against Storm. Dryad is uncounterable and sometimes allows to pay for Daze/Cursecatcher though.



Eight isn't enough for one to show up, that's why we run more than 8 dredgers here. Twelve is already a good number but, unlike Chancellor, removal isn't really a good answer to Shaman. You timewalk yourself twice with Shoal, then they timewalk you one more time with Thoughtseize or cast another Shaman and at this point you understand you can't really win this game anymore. And it's even worse against BUG where countering your removal is just a blowout. Chancellor is uncounterable and saves number of cards in your hand, that's why it should be back now when everyone and his mother run Deathrites.

Unmask is just clearly better vs combo in every conceivable way compared to Dryad Arbor, I find the card far too linear to bother playing with personally - it does practically nothing before turn 3 -

[Michael Keller]

Unmask is just clearly better vs combo in every conceivable way compared to Dryad Arbor, I find the card far too linear to bother playing with personally - it does practically nothing before turn 3 -

That's really not true. Dryad Arbor is a major contributor to powering outer faster Dread Returns, which enables us to combo out faster than our opponents.

That's a primary reason why it's in the deck.

[Malakai]

Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace are ubiquitous. I understand regular dredge's plan, but what can manaless even do against turn 1 Relic on a stick?

[sconnell]

Unmask is just clearly better vs combo in every conceivable way compared to Dryad Arbor, I find the card far too linear to bother playing with personally - it does practically nothing before turn 3 -


That's really not true. Dryad Arbor is a major contributor to powering outer faster Dread Returns, which enables us to combo out faster than our opponents.

That's a primary reason why it's in the deck.

I'm on the Dryad Arbor/Hollywood side on this. Arbor is also a Therapy enabler, and having it in the deck increases the chances of a turn 2 Therapy. Arbor is also a creature, which is relevant for Nether Shadow and Grave-Troll. It is one of the cards I could see being taken out of the deck if a better candidate comes up, but I'm not sure that's happened.

Unmask takes 2 cards out of your hand and means you can't DDD. That means you can only Unmask turn 2 if you've gotten a second dredger into the graveyard, so it's not actually guaranteed that you can even play Unmask turn 2.

[sconnell]

Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace are ubiquitous. I understand regular dredge's plan, but what can manaless even do against turn 1 Relic on a stick?

I'm guessing by "relic on a stick" you mean Deathrite?

Phantasmagorian/Street Wraith tricks, and removal. See http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/52883/the-cutting-room-floor-manaless-unplugged-vol-i

[ykpon]

Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace are ubiquitous. I understand regular dredge's plan, but what can manaless even do against turn 1 Relic on a stick?

Aforementioned plus Chancellor of the Annex.


That's really not true. Dryad Arbor is a major contributor to powering outer faster Dread Returns, which enables us to combo out faster than our opponents.

That's a primary reason why it's in the deck.

But is it better than Shield Sphere? And do you feel that four is the exact number of cmc0 creatures this deck needs?

[sconnell]

But is [Dryad Arbor] better than Shield Sphere? And do you feel that four is the exact number of cmc0 creatures this deck needs?

Arbor is clearly > other "free" creature options, and should be a 4-of, if you're running Nature's Claim or Reverent Silence in the board.

If not however ... both (i) what's the optimal number of "free" creatures? and (ii) what's the best "free" creature? become questions worth asking.

Regarding the second question, our options are (unless I missed anything):
1-power:
1/1 Dryad Arbor - vulnerable to land removal (especially Wasteland), can't be targeted by Abrupt Decay
1/1 Memnite - vulnerable to artifact removal
0-power:
0/1 assorted Kobolds
0/2 Ornithopter - vulnerable to artifact removal, can block flyers
0/3 Phyrexian Walker - vulnerable to artifact removal
0/6 Shield Sphere - vulnerable to artifact removal, high toughness means it's hard to kill with direct damage

As far as 1-power creatures go, the main different between Arbor and Memnite is that Arbor's vulnerable to Wasteland and immune to Abrupt Decay, and Memnite is the opposite. I don't think either is clearly superior.
Shield Sphere seems to be the clear winner in the 0-power creature camp, and I think is probably best overall. It can probably block an early creature several time before dying, and can't just be bolted out of the way.

Edit: Dryad Arbor is a land so is immune to counterspells, and doesn't give the opponent an opportunity to respond. These are fairly major omissions, and probably tip things towards Arbor even without wanting green mana.

[ykpon]

Shield Sphere seems to be the clear winner in the 0-power creature camp, and I think is probably best overall. It can probably block an early creature several time before dying, and can't just be bolted out of the way

Running Arbor over Shield also somehow decreases a chance of turn 2 Dread Return because you can only play one per turn. On the other hand, Arbor makes it possible to cast stuff under Thalia or Cursecatcher.

[Michael Keller]

Dryad Arbor is better than any and all of the other suggestions here, folks. It does not require using the stack and hits the battlefield immediately just like the others do.

The bonus of it being a creature is what makes it great in Manaless. (That and it adds critical green mana.) It's primarily used to facilitate Dread Return and to soften your resources for games two and three. This is where adjusting the sideboard becomes important. It's got too many positive attributes associated with it in this particular deck to remove it for creatures like Memnite or Shield Sphere. I get that you can Dread Return faster that way, but Dryad Arbor is really important for the aforementioned reasons.

That to me is just too good to pass up. The less interaction, the better.

[slave]

Dryad Arbor is better than any and all of the other suggestions here, folks. It does not require using the stack and hits the battlefield immediately........That to me is just too good to pass up. The less interaction, the better.

And this is why I'd rather run it, regardless of game 2 & 3.

Shield SPhere isn't bad, but it can be countered and faces just as much hate. Lets be honest, it's not like our opponent can't see our Dread Return sitting in the graveyard, and they won't miss the fact we're putting a third creature into play.
Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance etc., are fairly common round me, and Shield Sphere doesn't dodge them.
But what about Thalia, Daze, Lodestone Golem etc etc. Arbor has saved me from taxing effects quite a few times too. If our opponent has a taxing effect in play, we can't combo without Arbor unless we hit removal, for which we may need Arbor also.

In defence of Shield Sphere I will say this - opponent creatures getting chumped by Sphere wouldn't cause you to lose your bridges, whereas Arbor has the potential to actually kill something if you chump with it. This can be a good or bad thing depending on game state.

[kwis]

Dryad also pays for Daze mana, which can be relevant.

[Final Fortune]

That's really not true. Dryad Arbor is a major contributor to powering outer faster Dread Returns, which enables us to combo out faster than our opponents.

That's a primary reason why it's in the deck.

Yes it is, disrupting the opponent on T2 is more important than Dread Returning on T3 vs Storm, and I don't think Dryad Arbor necessarily contributes more to a T3 Dread Return than Gitaxian Probe does.

@Sconnel

The odds of being able to Unmask on T2 are significantly higher than the odds of being able to play Dryad Arbor and flashback Cabal Therapy on T2 for certain, and furthermore playing Dryad Arbor has virtually the same effect as playing Unmask on your ability to Dredge because you've decreased your hand size below 8 cards for the clean up step.

Saying Dryad Arbor is a creature in the graveyard is about as relevant as saying "it pitches to Force of Will," IMO. Those observations are difficult to quantify, because who is to say being a creature in the graveyard is any more or less important than revealing your opponent's hand in the case of Gitaxian Probe etc. etc.

@Dryad Arbor

I'm not saying Dryad Arbor is a bad card, I'm saying Dryad Arbor is a linear card that requires a Cabal Therapy or Dread Return in order to be relevant, where a card like Unmask or Gitaxian Probe always advance your game state regardless of your board position or graveyard composition by decelerating your opponent or accelerating you a turn earlier than Dryad Arbor in most cases.

As far as synonyms for Dryad Arbor are concerned, the obvious replacement is Chancellor of the Forge for being an uncounterable 1/1 with Haste that can deal 2 damage before T3 and not require you to play a card from your hand and reduce your hand size below 8. Furthermore Chancellor of the Forge is a reasonable Dread Return target, provided no better targets are available. I think it's probably the closest analogue to Dryad Arbor, altho' I can't say it's any better. For all I know, you should be playing both if you're trying to maximize your T2 Cabal Therapys and T3 Dread Returns. It'd be interesting to test their effects on your average turn for disruption your opponent or resolving Dread Returns compared to the 8 Bauble builds at least.

Edit: Or you should be playing 4 Dryad Arbor and 4 Fetchlands instead of 4 Chancellor of the Forge in order to condense your SB space for Reverent Silence, that actually makes a world of sense.

@Thread

Whether or not you're going to play Dryad Arbor over any other card in your MD is your business, but I'm pretty sure Chancellor of the Annex is better than Sickening Shoal in the MD - that card has always been awful IMO -, and I'm positive not playing with Unmask some where in your 75 is a mistake you'll pay for dearly vs combo. Maybe you'll find an amalgamation of ideas between a MD with 4 Chancellor of the Annex and Dryad Arbor in the MD, and 4 Mindbreak Trap and Unmask, 4 Reverent Silence and 3 Fetchlands in the SB.

[sherko7]

Unmask is clearly good but I think a deck like this already lacks space to play 4. I wouldn't cut Dryad Arbor as it has saved me shitload of times. Removal can probably be cut but not quite yet... Not quite yet... :tongue:

Haven't really tried Chancellor of the Annex, but I do agree that it is MD-able material. I'd rather not play it from the board. The deck is already quite fast, not as fast as TES and ANT (probably somewhere between TES/ANT and Burn) but probably by playing Chancellor we can close the gap between us and TES/ANT. :)

[ykpon]

As far as synonyms for Dryad Arbor are concerned, the obvious replacement is Chancellor of the Forge for being an uncounterable 1/1 with Haste that can deal 2 damage before T3 and not require you to play a card from your hand and reduce your hand size below 8.

It isn't that obvious because Chancellor of the Forge is the only free creature (apart from Pact of the Titan, lol) that doesn't work with Bridge from Below.


Edit: Or you should be playing 4 Dryad Arbor and 4 Fetchlands instead of 4 Chancellor of the Forge in order to condense your SB space for Reverent Silence, that actually makes a world of sense.

Adding maindeck fetchlands is an interesting idea but 4+4 seems to be too many because of all those hands with 2+ Arbors while not being able to play them all.

[sherko7]

It isn't that obvious because Chancellor of the Forge is the only free creature (apart from Pact of the Titan, lol) that doesn't work with Bridge from Below.



Adding maindeck fetchlands is an interesting idea but 4+4 seems to be too many because of all those hands with 2+ Arbors while not being able to play them all.

Agreed. Also kinda sucks to lower the deck's threat density.

I'm kinda rethinking slipping back Noxious Revival into an SB that looks like this:

2 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
3 Nature's Claim
4 Reverent Silence
2 Contagion
3 Noxious Revival

Noxious Revival helps you get back Dredge's hate cards against Grafdigger's Cage, as well as quite a lot of other things like returning that sac'd Narcomoeba, protecting that Bridge, etc... Its a great utility card especially against today's meta IMHO.

[rektareloaded]

with SnT variants showing up again lately heres a SB that i can think of....

1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Kederekt Leviathan (just for SNT and/or enchantress maybe???)
4 Dryad Arbor (yup thats correct coz my MD is dakmor/ghast)
4 Reverent Silence (i would rather lose to a belcher/TES/ANT than to a turn 0 or turn 2 enchantment with a -100% misplay :mad: )
4 Chancellor of the Annex :laugh:

hopefully this will work in our local :cry:

[ykpon]

with SnT variants showing up again lately heres a SB that i can think of....

1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Kederekt Leviathan (just for SNT and/or enchantress maybe???)
4 Dryad Arbor (yup thats correct coz my MD is dakmor/ghast)
4 Reverent Silence (i would rather lose to a belcher/TES/ANT than to a turn 0 or turn 2 enchantment with a -100% misplay :mad: )
4 Chancellor of the Annex :laugh:

hopefully this will work in our local :cry:

What matchups are Chancellors for? And why Leviathan over Angel of Despair? She seems to be strictly better in every aspect.

Btw probability of getting one of 5 Arbors and one of 4 Silences together is low. Not to mention getting both still sometimes doesn't help because of opponent's discard or countermagic. Even if everything goes perfect and you destroy that enchantment, you get left with 6 cards in your hand and without a graveyard so they have plenty of time to get another copy. I don't think it's worth it to waste sb slots trying to fight three cards you can't win through, I'd focus on beating everything else instead.

[slave]

What matchups are Chancellors for? And why Leviathan over Angel of Despair? She seems to be strictly better in every aspect.

Lets have a look;
Leviathan handles all threats in play outside lands. Angel only kills one of them, and only if she can target it.
Sure, Leviathan doesn't kill them, it only postpones them, but that can be enough if they're relying on something like SnT etc.
Angel can also cop Misdirection, which I see occasionally.
Leviathan also fills back up our hand, which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on game state.

I've tried both. And I see occasions where I'd rather have either.
I like Leviathan, it's really useful against creature decks (like Goblins, Elves, token decks, (sometimes merfolk) etc etc.,) that swarm the board and can possibly kill our bridges, or against locks that prevent us doing anything.
That said, Angel seems a better choice against decks concentrating on combo like SnT.

Choice is yours. I see merit in both.

[ykpon]

Leviathan handles all threats in play outside lands. Angel only kills one of them.

Single Angel can deal with up to three permanents, just chain your Therapies and Dread Returns correctly.


Angel can also cop Misdirection, which I see occasionally.

Misdirection does nothing against Angel.


Leviathan also fills back up our hand, which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on game state.

Filling your hand with a bunch of zombie tokens instead of winning seems to always be a bad thing.

[rektareloaded]

i guess playing leviathan really depends on the meta in your area. if you're expecting SnT variants and enchantress then play leviathan. if you have no idea what the meta is... then use angel against all other threat.

[Michael Keller]

So, assuming I'm running the four Arbors maindeck (which I likely will continue doing), here are a bunch of sideboard configurations I've kept in mind for quite some time:

//Config. I
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex
[4x] Reverent Silence
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest

//Config. II
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Noxious Revival

//Config. III
[4x] Reverent Silence
[4x] Nature's Claim
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest

//Config. IV
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Unmask
[3x] Noxious Revival
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Sickening Shoal

//Config. V
[4x] Reverent Silence
[3x] Noxious Revival
[3x] Sickening Shoal
[2x] Nature's Claim
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest

//Config. VI
[4x] Chancellor of the Forge
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Sickening Shoal

There are plenty of other configs, but these are a few that have been testing decent in specific metas.

[ykpon]

i guess playing leviathan really depends on the meta in your area. if you're expecting SnT variants and enchantress then play leviathan

Can you explain your desire to play Leviathan over Angel against Show and Tell decks? I don't get it at all.



//Config. VI
[4x] Chancellor of the Forge
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Sickening Shoal[/cards]

What are red Chancellors for?
Also have you tested Surgical Extractions? That's the only card I never cut from my sb. I covered some of its advantages on page 44 if interested.

[BOSCA]

When i'm Running Hollywood decklist with Arbor and 3 Contagion / 1 Shoal this is my sb:

2 Forest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Nature's Claim
2 Reverent Silence
3 Unmask
4 Chancellor of the Annex

I think the biggest problem of manaless is biuld a stong sb. All t1 have a great sb options and this deck cant do it.

[rektareloaded]

Can you explain your desire to play Leviathan over Angel against Show and Tell decks? I don't get it at all.



player played show and tell... both players place a card facedown (normally) you showed angel and he showed sneak attack assuming that he still got an open mana. angel triggers, SnT player responded by playing emrakul or whatever. point is in this situation he can still give you 15 damage. which is crucial coz we cant pay 7life anymore with griselbrand

another example.
SnT player played turn 1 cage. then played ancient tomb on turn 2 for Snt. both player played facedown card. you showed angel and he showed emrakul. which will you destroy?

i know its not happening all the time..

i get your point. im also running angels before but we have to assume that they know we have angel of despair on our deck

. and im pretty sold with leviathan thats all . :wink:

[NecroYawgmoth]

another example.
SnT player played turn 1 cage. then played ancient tomb on turn 2 for Snt. both player played facedown card. you showed angel and he showed emrakul. which will you destroy?


Emrakul of course. You still have 4 turn clock against them, then.

Example 1 is really akward. It really looks like a made up situation to make Leviathan look > Angel, because A) in the reality you get S&T Emrakuled way more often than this way, and B) This situation is only better that way if you have no permanents on the battlefield, at this point, and in this situation you would lose anyways. Also, Angel is better overall.

[Final Fortune]

So, assuming I'm running the four Arbors maindeck (which I likely will continue doing), here are a bunch of sideboard configurations I've kept in mind for quite some time:

//Config. I
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex
[4x] Reverent Silence
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest

//Config. II
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Noxious Revival

//Config. III
[4x] Reverent Silence
[4x] Nature's Claim
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest

//Config. IV
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Unmask
[3x] Noxious Revival
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Sickening Shoal

//Config. V
[4x] Reverent Silence
[3x] Noxious Revival
[3x] Sickening Shoal
[2x] Nature's Claim
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest

//Config. VI
[4x] Chancellor of the Forge
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Sickening Shoal

There are plenty of other configs, but these are a few that have been testing decent in specific metas.

I think you're making a very big mistake by SBing Chancellor of the Annex instead of MDing him over Sickening Shoal and Contagion. Stop and consider that Chancellor of the Annex is already a better answer to Deathrite Shaman than Sickening Shoal is by delaying Deathrite Shaman for a turn instead of killing him in exchange for not double Time Walking yourself. Now consider that Chancellor of the Annex is good vs every, single deck in the format while Sickening Shoal does practically nothing vs any deck that doesn't turn creatures sideways. Finally consider how much more powerful other cards in your SB can be in any given match up compared to Chancellor of the Annex, is SBing in Chancellor of the Annex vs Storm anywhere near as effective as Mindbreak Trap or even Unmask? Hell no, it's a weak ass card compared to the impact other bullets can have on specific match ups, Mindbreak Trap and Unmask vs Combo, Leyline of the Void vs Dredge mirrors or Angel of Despair vs Show&Tell are way better investments.

If you want to keep Dryad Arbor and Reverent Silence as a part of your strategy, I think cutting Sickening Shoal/Contagion from your MD in favor of Chancellor of the Annex and SBing 4 Mindbreak Trap, 4 Unmask, 4 Reverent Silence and 3 Fetchlands (WTF at Forest without Nature's Claim?) makes way more sense then what you're proposing.

Chancellor of the Forge is a horrible SB card IMO. If you are going to cut the Reverent Silence package, I think you just want to play with cards that straight up blow other decks out of the water like 4 Leyline of the Void and/or 3 Angel of Despair. Your SB cards should provide you with massive value in match up dependent situations, not cutesy shit like Sickening Shoal or Noxious Revival that don't do dick vs anything other than hate.

Right now I play 4 Chancellor of the Annex and 4 Gitaxian Probe MD and 4 Mindbreak Trap, 4 Unmask, 4 Leyline of the Void and 3 Angel of Despair SB and really, really like that setup vs the more abusive decks in the metagame. Vs Storm you're like aggro-control on fucking steroids by playing all 4 Chancellor/Mindbreak/Unmask.

[rektareloaded]

Also, Angel is better overall.

no one said leviathan is better than angel :smile:

[sherko7]

I think you're making a very big mistake by SBing Chancellor of the Annex instead of MDing him over Sickening Shoal and Contagion. Stop and consider that Chancellor of the Annex is already a better answer to Deathrite Shaman than Sickening Shoal is by delaying Deathrite Shaman for a turn instead of killing him in exchange for not double Time Walking yourself. Now consider that Chancellor of the Annex is good vs every, single deck in the format while Sickening Shoal does practically nothing vs any deck that doesn't turn creatures sideways. Finally consider how much more powerful other cards in your SB can be in any given match up compared to Chancellor of the Annex, is SBing in Chancellor of the Annex vs Storm anywhere near as effective as Mindbreak Trap or even Unmask? Hell no, it's a weak ass card compared to the impact other bullets can have on specific match ups, Mindbreak Trap and Unmask vs Combo, Leyline of the Void vs Dredge mirrors or Angel of Despair vs Show&Tell are way better investments.

If you want to keep Dryad Arbor and Reverent Silence as a part of your strategy, I think cutting Sickening Shoal/Contagion from your MD in favor of Chancellor of the Annex and SBing 4 Mindbreak Trap, 4 Unmask, 4 Reverent Silence and 3 Fetchlands (WTF at Forest without Nature's Claim?) makes way more sense then what you're proposing.

Chancellor of the Forge is a horrible SB card IMO. If you are going to cut the Reverent Silence package, I think you just want to play with cards that straight up blow other decks out of the water like 4 Leyline of the Void and/or 3 Angel of Despair. Your SB cards should provide you with massive value in match up dependent situations, not cutesy shit like Sickening Shoal or Noxious Revival that don't do dick vs anything other than hate.

Right now I play 4 Chancellor of the Annex and 4 Gitaxian Probe MD and 4 Mindbreak Trap, 4 Unmask, 4 Leyline of the Void and 3 Angel of Despair SB and really, really like that setup vs the more abusive decks in the metagame. Vs Storm you're like aggro-control on fucking steroids by playing all 4 Chancellor/Mindbreak/Unmask.

This sold me to play Chancellor MD instead of Contagion and Shoal. I'm keeping at least 4 removal in the SB though. :)

[Final Fortune]

This sold me to play Chancellor MD instead of Contagion and Shoal. I'm keeping at least 4 removal in the SB though. :)

Another thing that occured to me is that I think it may be better to play an Angel of Despair in the MD over a Flayer of the Hatebound because the two cards serve similar roles, circumventing Elephant Grass, Ghostly Prison, Peacekeeper, Glacial Chasm etc. and having a free bullet vs Show&Tell 1/6 games gives the card a little more utility. It also feed Ichorid, pitches to Unmask and is a better stand alone reanimation target (I think).

[ykpon]

Emrakul of course. You still have 4 turn clock against them, then.
Cage if you win next turn, Emrakul if you don't. But a good SnT player would never make such play unless time is over.


Another thing that occured to me is that I think it may be better to play an Angel of Despair in the MD over a Flayer of the Hatebound because the two cards serve similar roles, circumventing Elephant Grass, Ghostly Prison, Peacekeeper, Glacial Chasm etc. and having a free bullet vs Show&Tell 1/6 games gives the card a little more utility. It also feed Ichorid, pitches to Unmask and is a better stand alone reanimation target (I think).
Check page 44 to see what happens when you speak about cutting Flayer and delete your post before it's too late :)

[Michael Keller]

Another thing that occured to me is that I think it may be better to play an Angel of Despair in the MD over a Flayer of the Hatebound because the two cards serve similar roles, circumventing Elephant Grass, Ghostly Prison, Peacekeeper, Glacial Chasm etc. and having a free bullet vs Show&Tell 1/6 games gives the card a little more utility. It also feed Ichorid, pitches to Unmask and is a better stand alone reanimation target (I think).

Flayer of the Hatebound is one of this archetype's most important cards. Cutting it is definitely not the right play unless you have some freakish sideboard-special creature to take its place.

And that would have to be a very special creature.

[NecroYawgmoth]

...still I am quite sure you rarely to never need the 2nd one, because you'll flip your deck anyways when you DR Griselbro, otherwise you are in a losing position anyways. Why do we need 2, when we cast DR rarely on him before Grisel?

[SBGpinas]

...still I am quite sure you rarely to never need the 2nd one, because you'll flip your deck anyways when you DR Griselbro, otherwise you are in a losing position anyways. Why do we need 2, when we cast DR rarely on him before Grisel?

Because having 2 Flayers in the GY already allow you to combo-out for fatal damage, even without Griselbrand.

Situation: 2 Flayers, 2 Dread Returns, 1 Cabal Therapy and 1 Bridge in GY

Dread Return for Flayer#1 - Deal 4 damage to opponent (Total of 4 damage)
Dread Return for Flayer#2 (using Flayer#1 as sacrifice) - Undying for Flayer 1 Kicks in, dealing 5 damage, then Flayer 2 Enters play dealing 4 damage twice (because you have 2 Flayers; Total of 17 damage)
Cabal Therapy using Flayer #2 as sacrifice - Undying kicks in for Flayer 2, dealing 5 damage twice (Total of 27 damage)

With only a few Griselbrands in the main, you'd want some form of redundancy to your combo, and having 2 Flayers main deck allow you that

[slave]

no one said leviathan is better than angel :smile:

Leviathan would be preferred when you're seeking to return everything back to thier hands, and you have Bridges in the yard you don't wanna nuke.
Angel is no doubt, a better card, and not just because it's black either. I just find Angel ends up getting Bridges exiled for me quite often. :mad:

Like rektareloaded, I've tried running both out of the board.
Leviathan gets a lot stronger when you can bring it into play and you have Therapies in the yard aswell as Bridges.
Provided the main opponents' threat is creature based, I don't think Angel isn't always the better option.
Depends greatly on what deck your opponent is playing, what they're doing, and what the current board state is like.

[slave]

Because having 2 Flayers in the GY already allow you to combo-out for fatal damage, even without Griselbrand.

With only a few Griselbrands in the main, you'd want some form of redundancy to your combo, and having 2 Flayers main deck allow you that

I can attest to needing more than 1 Flayer.
When I forst started playing this deck I only used one.
Been quite a few times I've discovered a Flayer sitting on the bottom of my library after needing one to get past Leyline of Sanctity.

Since I've been running two, the likelihood of me winning with Flayer > DR > Troll through Sanctity became much more likely and consistent.
I've been fairly reluctant to try running no FLayer and 4 Grisel. Extraction blows.....

[Final Fortune]

Flayer of the Hatebound is one of this archetype's most important cards. Cutting it is definitely not the right play unless you have some freakish sideboard-special creature to take its place.

And that would have to be a very special creature.

I've never had issues with running 1, returning Griselbrand is usually enough anyway.

[NecroYawgmoth]

@SBGpinas: You call 3 Griselbrands a few? You could easily add the 4th Grisel over the 2nd Flayer to have similar effects. I know that you can combokill easily with 2 Flayers, but it's much more likely to have 1 DR and 1 Grisel to win, instead of having 2 Flayers, 2 DRs and 1 Cabal Therapy. =0

@slave: How does Flayer win through a Leyline? I think Angel is better here. =P

That said, my favorite main configuration is still: 3 Grisel, 1 Flayer, 1 Angel.

[SBGpinas]

@SBGpinas: You call 3 Griselbrands a few? You could easily add the 4th Grisel over the 2nd Flayer to have similar effects. I know that you can combokill easily with 2 Flayers, but it's much more likely to have 1 DR and 1 Grisel to win, instead of having 2 Flayers, 2 DRs and 1 Cabal Therapy.

For one thing, 3 is a few when you consider the fact that a deck has 60 cards... Math sucks, eh?

And another, the scenario I described is just a scenario. I'm not saying that that is the only reason why 2 Flayers are crucial.

More than anything, the 2 Flayers provide the deck with combo-redundancy... Saying it doesn't need redundancy is like saying ANT should just use 3 Ad Nauseam and call it a day... After all, by your logic, 3 copies is not "a few", and it should be enough for ANT to steamroll a lot of matchups... See where that takes you.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Well... 2 is fewer than 3, so math sucks, eh? Even if you'd play a card 4 times it is "few" in your mathematical point of view, so why bother with numbers at all?

The scenario was a very bad scenario, cuz you are basically saying. If I have this 5 cards I can win, with otherwise wouldn't be possible. If one of these 2 Flayers were a Griselbrand for example, you could easily win with much lesser cards in your graveyard. [Hint: It's only 1 Return which is needed.] 2nd Flayer IMO is ALWAYS worse than 4th Griselbrand. You should even win the game right on the spot if you have 1 Flayer and 2 Dread Returns in the grave 95% of the times. There is really no need for a second one.

And ANT with 3+ Ad Nauseams? LOL, In what world do you life?

[ykpon]

Double Flayer allows you to win without Trolls (e.g. after Extirpating them).

Running less than four Griselbrands seems to be a mistake, you always need one as soon as possible and additional copies can feed Ichorid. Personally, I only run 4 Griselbrands and 1 Angel and have never lost a game after resolving Dread Return yet. If I expect Elves, i can see adding Elesh Norn to sb because that's the only deck that sometimes can suvive a chain of Therapies and Angels.

[BOSCA]

For lillte Elf we have Contagion, Elesh is still too good vs some mu but hard to find slot for her.

[ykpon]

For lillte Elf we have Contagion, Elesh is still too good vs some mu but hard to find slot for her.

Well, Contagions require more slots than Elesh. And don't get me wrong - Elesh should only be considered if you cut Flayer.

[SBGpinas]

Well... 2 is fewer than 3, so math sucks, eh? Even if you'd play a card 4 times it is "few" in your mathematical point of view, so why bother with numbers at all?

The scenario was a very bad scenario, cuz you are basically saying. If I have this 5 cards I can win, with otherwise wouldn't be possible. If one of these 2 Flayers were a Griselbrand for example, you could easily win with much lesser cards in your graveyard. [Hint: It's only 1 Return which is needed.] 2nd Flayer IMO is ALWAYS worse than 4th Griselbrand. You should even win the game right on the spot if you have 1 Flayer and 2 Dread Returns in the grave 95% of the times. There is really no need for a second one.

And ANT with 3+ Ad Nauseams? LOL, In what world do you life?

I see you conveniently ignored the point of my reply...

no use explaining it to you then... I just literally heard the "WOOOOSH" of the idea flying over your head from here...

[blindspotxxx]

Because having 2 Flayers in the GY already allow you to combo-out for fatal damage, even without Griselbrand.

Situation: 2 Flayers, 2 Dread Returns, 1 Cabal Therapy and 1 Bridge in GY

Dread Return for Flayer#1 - Deal 4 damage to opponent (Total of 4 damage)
Dread Return for Flayer#2 (using Flayer#1 as sacrifice) - Undying for Flayer 1 Kicks in, dealing 5 damage, then Flayer 2 Enters play dealing 4 damage twice (because you have 2 Flayers; Total of 17 damage)
Cabal Therapy using Flayer #2 as sacrifice - Undying kicks in for Flayer 2, dealing 5 damage twice (Total of 27 damage)

With only a few Griselbrands in the main, you'd want some form of redundancy to your combo, and having 2 Flayers main deck allow you that

There's another way to do this as said by rektareloaded the demon god of manaless dredge here in the Philippines lol

I think it's DR the 1st Flayer deal 4 to opponent ( 4 Damage)
DR 2nd flayer targetting the 1st Flayer dealing 4 to the 1st Flayer and 4 to the opponent from the 2nd Flayer. Undying Triggers so deal another 5 to the opponent and another 5 to the 2nd Flayer. (9 Damage)
2nd Flayer undying triggers Deal 10 Damage to the opponent from 1st and 2nd Flayer. (10 Damage)

[slave]

@slave: How does Flayer win through a Leyline? I think Angel is better here. =P

That said, my favorite main configuration is still: 3 Grisel, 1 Flayer, 1 Angel.
Whoops - i said the wrong card. Must have been thinking about a "can't attack me card" like Blazing Archon.:cry: Duh!

Yeah I like 3 Grisel too. I did try running four, and whilst I can see the reason for it - a good reason at that - I still want an alternate way to hit my opponent through soft-lock scenario's.
I still have an Angel in the board, but I have been alternating between that and Leviathan a bit...next time I leave the house with Manaless I'll pop both in and see which one gets the job done. The main thing that gets me is the way that Levy helps protect bridges... I think I have to get past that.:really:


There's another way to do this as said by rektareloaded the demon god of manaless dredge here in the Philippines lol

I think it's DR the 1st Flayer deal 4 to opponent ( 4 Damage)
DR 2nd flayer targetting the 1st Flayer dealing 4 to the 1st Flayer and 4 to the opponent from the 2nd Flayer. Undying Triggers so deal another 5 to the opponent and another 5 to the 2nd Flayer. (9 Damage)
2nd Flayer undying triggers Deal 10 Damage to the opponent from 1st and 2nd Flayer. (10 Damage)
Demon god?
Nice.
How much is a soul worth these days? Any chance I could sell it for a pretty nympho who only speaks dirty, dressed in lederhosen and a set of keys to a private yacht?

[SBGpinas]

Demon god?
Nice.
How much is a soul worth these days? Any chance I could sell it for a pretty nympho who only speaks dirty, dressed in lederhosen and a set of keys to a private yacht?

Lol. rektareloaded has been in the Top 8 of at least 6 different major events here with Manaless Dredge. He's probably the person in our country who has clocked the most number of hours of playtesting with the deck.

So yeah some people have started calling him a Demon God due to his success with the deck hahaha!

I would listen to what he has to say. Some people might not agree with his choices, but you can be assured that there was a lot of thought put into his decisions in card choices.

[rektareloaded]

Lol. rektareloaded has been in the Top 8 of at least 6 different major events here with Manaless Dredge. He's probably the person in our country who has clocked the most number of hours of playtesting with the deck.

So yeah some people have started calling him a Demon God due to his success with the deck hahaha!

I would listen to what he has to say. Some people might not agree with his choices, but you can be assured that there was a lot of thought put into his decisions in card choices.

OMG :eek: demon god? its just pure luck :laugh:

anyway here's my short tournament report. i joined a local legacy tournament in my area (total of 10 players)
reason for joining is that i need the free "1st round bye" for the upcoming paeng cup V (major legacy event)

Game 1 vs RW Goblins (2-1)
round 1 -> he got a slow start by playing a turn 1 vial. i discarded phantasmagorian at my discard step. he played the dble strike "lackey" dude on his turn, at EOT my GY went crazy. i was able to get couple of bridges, shadows and ichorids on my turn. eventually i got lots of zombies to block his goblins. win
round 2 -> he played a turn 1 lackey . i played my verdant catacomb on my turn. he attack his lackey but i responded by getting dryad arbor via verdant, then blocked his lackey. he played his RIP on the same turn. played my arbor then played rev silence as an answer (timewalk :cry: ) . he was able to play the instigator on his turn. eventually i lose.
round 3 -> he mulled to 6 trying to get a better hand. but luckily he didnt. killed him with my ichorids and zombie army



Game 2 vs Omnitell (2-0)
round 1 -> he kept his hand with 1 land but with 2 cantrips. luckily he never got his 2nd land till his 3rd turn. he played his show and tell + omniscience. i played stinkweed imp? :frown: . but he never got his winning card and was able to beat him on my turn.
round 2 -> i got a kederekt leviathan :laugh: , SW, phantasma, 2 dredgers and 2 narcomoeba :cry: in hand (I KEEP!!! :tongue: ). was able to stip his hand on my turn via cabal therapy. win!


Game 3 vs RDW (2-0)
round 1 -> im down to 4 life and got a resolved griselbro in play. he got no more cards in hand :laugh: . Win!
round 2 -> im down to 7 life, i was able to cabal his fireblast. he only got 1 mountain in play with 2 chainlightning remaining in hand. he played his chainlightning on his turn. beat him with ichorids, shadows and zombies. win

Game 4 vs Goblins (2-0)
round 1 -> i almost lose on this round. he got alot of goblins in play. he played his krenko via lackey. my only way out is to kill the krenko guy with my flayer and set up zombie blockers. i dredge for 2 with dakmor due to i alrdy got 3 ghast in GY. the 2 cards that was dredged was a (2nd) dread return and a bridge. Wow! he is down to 14 life was able to beat him by returning flayer in the field shooting 4 damage, then played the land to return 3 ghast shooting 6 damage then played my 2nd DR returning GG troll. but he's alrdy dead by then once undying triggered. win

round 2 -> he mulled to 4 cards hoping he will draw his LOTV. he keep his 4 cards in hand. sadly he drawed his lotv on his turn. drop phantasmagorian in my GY at end of his turn. 3rd turn kill via griselbro. win!

ended at 1st place at (4-0) standing.
got a free entrance and 1 round bye to the much anticipated paeng cup V (legacy tournament)

thanks for reading!

[slave]

Congrats DG.:tongue:
Sounds like you've got your sideboarding worked out if you can win that convincingly!

On a whole other note - I'm not one for pimping decks, but I totally understand why those that do, choose to do it.
Played against a Merfolk player a coupel of months back with an almost completely foil deck..... pretty!
So to all you in Manaless land;
...I'm kinda curious whether all the manaless staples can actually be found in foil tbh!
Have you got a pimp deck? Have you got all the foils? Have you got signed or alternate art cards?

[rektareloaded]

Congrats DG.:tongue:
Sounds like you've got your sideboarding worked out if you can win that convincingly!

On a whole other note - I'm not one for pimping decks, but I totally understand why those that do, choose to do it.
Played against a Merfolk player a coupel of months back with an almost completely foil deck..... pretty!
So to all you in Manaless land;
...I'm kinda curious whether all the manaless staples can actually be found in foil tbh!
Have you got a pimp deck? Have you got all the foils? Have you got signed or alternate art cards?


man this is my long term goal.. to pimp the deck...i think only nether shadows cant be foiled out. so you need to buy the alpha version

[Michael Keller]

man this is my long term goal.. to pimp the deck...i think only nether shadows cant be foiled out. so you need to buy the alpha version

Just got my fourth Beta Shadow; deck is completely pimped.

[BOSCA]

@rektareloaded
decklist ? Bloodghast+Savage ?
happy sunday :smile:

[rektareloaded]

@rektareloaded
decklist ? Bloodghast+Savage ?
happy sunday :smile:

yup! im using my same build

4 LANDS
4 Dakmor Salvage

40 CREATURES
4 Street Wraith
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bloodghast
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Griselbrand

12 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 OTHER SPELLS
4 Bridge from Below

SIDEBOARD
4 Dryad Arbor
1 Nature's Claim
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
2 Kederekt Leviathan
2 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Reverent Silence

Happy Sunday !

[blindspotxxx]

OMG :eek: demon god? its just pure luck :laugh:

anyway here's my short tournament report. i joined a local legacy tournament in my area (total of 10 players)
reason for joining is that i need the free "1st round bye" for the upcoming paeng cup V (major legacy event)

Game 1 vs RW Goblins (2-1)
round 1 -> he got a slow start by playing a turn 1 vial. i discarded phantasmagorian at my discard step. he played the dble strike "lackey" dude on his turn, at EOT my GY went crazy. i was able to get couple of bridges, shadows and ichorids on my turn. eventually i got lots of zombies to block his goblins. win
round 2 -> he played a turn 1 lackey . i played my verdant catacomb on my turn. he attack his lackey but i responded by getting dryad arbor via verdant, then blocked his lackey. he played his RIP on the same turn. played my arbor then played rev silence as an answer (timewalk :cry: ) . he was able to play the instigator on his turn. eventually i lose.
round 3 -> he mulled to 6 trying to get a better hand. but luckily he didnt. killed him with my ichorids and zombie army



Game 2 vs Omnitell (2-0)
round 1 -> he kept his hand with 1 land but with 2 cantrips. luckily he never got his 2nd land till his 3rd turn. he played his show and tell + omniscience. i played stinkweed imp? :frown: . but he never got his winning card and was able to beat him on my turn.
round 2 -> i got a kederekt leviathan :laugh: , SW, phantasma, 2 dredgers and 2 narcomoeba :cry: in hand (I KEEP!!! :tongue: ). was able to stip his hand on my turn via cabal therapy. win!


Game 3 vs RDW (2-0)
round 1 -> im down to 4 life and got a resolved griselbro in play. he got no more cards in hand :laugh: . Win!
round 2 -> im down to 7 life, i was able to cabal his fireblast. he only got 1 mountain in play with 2 chainlightning remaining in hand. he played his chainlightning on his turn. beat him with ichorids, shadows and zombies. win

Game 4 vs Goblins (2-0)
round 1 -> i almost lose on this round. he got alot of goblins in play. he played his krenko via lackey. my only way out is to kill the krenko guy with my flayer and set up zombie blockers. i dredge for 2 with dakmor due to i alrdy got 3 ghast in GY. the 2 cards that was dredged was a (2nd) dread return and a bridge. Wow! he is down to 14 life was able to beat him by returning flayer in the field shooting 4 damage, then played the land to return 3 ghast shooting 6 damage then played my 2nd DR returning GG troll. but he's alrdy dead by then once undying triggered. win

round 2 -> he mulled to 4 cards hoping he will draw his LOTV. he keep his 4 cards in hand. sadly he drawed his lotv on his turn. drop phantasmagorian in my GY at end of his turn. 3rd turn kill via griselbro. win!

ended at 1st place at (4-0) standing.
got a free entrance and 1 round bye to the much anticipated paeng cup V (legacy tournament)

thanks for reading!

You probably had that 1 pc Kederekt Leviathan in the SB and manage to draw it vs Omnishow. How many young virgins were sacrificed yesterday for that to happen? lol

[rektareloaded]

no virgins were sacrificed.. hahaha i just believe in the strength of the deck thats all!

im not like that yu-gi-oh guy who always got a good "top deck" after thinking all of his friends (memory flashback thingy). its like he got a vampiric tutor every turn lol

Edit:

i noticed that they no longer using cage these days. thats good news for us. they normally still use surgicals, tormods and rest in peace (for decks with white access to white mana)

[SaintS]

no virgins were sacrificed.. hahaha i just believe in the strength of the deck thats all!

im not like that yu-gi-oh guy who always got a good "top deck" after thinking all of his friends (memory flashback thingy). its like he got a vampiric tutor every turn lol

Edit:

i noticed that they no longer using cage these days. thats good news for us. they normally still use surgicals, tormods and rest in peace (for decks with white access to white mana)


That's the power of friendship! (I think it's also the name of a "My Little Poney" Serie ... not sure :P)

Anway congratz for the result, I was test a version w/o Bloodghast MD, but I miss him too much, and seeing your decklist, I'll go back to that version.

I just have one question, isn't 8 draw effect (street wraith & probe) too much? how have been the probe?

[rektareloaded]

That's the power of friendship! (I think it's also the name of a "My Little Poney" Serie ... not sure :P)

Anway congratz for the result, I was test a version w/o Bloodghast MD, but I miss him too much, and seeing your decklist, I'll go back to that version.

I just have one question, isn't 8 draw effect (street wraith & probe) too much? how have been the probe?

although it can be countered. probe makes the deck more consistent but in a sorcery speed. it lets you convert the draw into dredge and lets you see your opponents hand.
it makes your 1st therapy count.
knowing your opponents hand before deciding to do something is a big factor to win a match.
also its not a dead card vs any deck whatever that may be.

[BOSCA]

Agree with rektareloaded.

Chancellor MD seems comparable with Contagion:

Chancellor: Helps you and Shadow in all mu but isn't definitively

Contagion: Useful card, great in some mu

Gitaxian Probe: Useful card, give's you more speed and informations.


In my opinion the best card of the deck is: Street Wraith.
If Wizzy will print another card with the same effect but with another name like Giude manaless will be a great deck

Core:

- Best dredger
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

- Other
4 Street Wraith
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
maybe Griselbrand and Flayer

- Spell
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

I'm testing for nex week if is possibile cut Shadow for this form: Arbor + Bloodghast + Probe + Chancellor
In my mind there is this:
Take time with Chancellor
Dredge a lot and fast
win
Fist problem: few food for Ichorid. Second problem: which big monstrers..
Aniway probably this isnt grat.

[slave]

Bosca, I'm not sure cutting Shadows is a great idea. I love the Shadows!
Whilst I can see the pro's of your suggestion, having a recursive threat outside Ichorid, that doesn't rely on a land hitting play like Ghast, is very important to getting those Dread Returns firing.
As far as big creatures go, the Grisel/Flayer two header rocks. Having an alternative like Angel of Despair or Leviathan is nice too.

Goood Luck

[SaintS]

Bosca, I'm not sure cutting Shadows is a great idea. I love the Shadows!
Whilst I can see the pro's of your suggestion, having a recursive threat outside Ichorid, that doesn't rely on a land hitting play like Ghast, is very important to getting those Dread Returns firing.
As far as big creatures go, the Grisel/Flayer two header rocks. Having an alternative like Angel of Despair or Leviathan is nice too.

Goood Luck

I have to agree on what you say there!
Taking into account that I'm for the moment playing Hollywood's list, I would do -4 dryad -3 Contagion -1 Sickening Shoal to do +4 ghast and +4 Dakmor Salvage but I would not get rid of the shadows, I find them too good!

A little question for someone a bit newbie as I am, If I have a griselbrand and 3 dredgers in my grave. I decide to use his ability and draw 7, do I get to dredge 3 times then draw 4 times, or do I dredge the first time, see if I have a new dredger, then dredge the second card, etc.? So if I get 4 other dredgers, do I get to dredge 7 times in total?

thanks a lot for your answer, I hope I was clear in my question ^^"

- SaintS

[slave]

A little question for someone a bit newbie as I am, If I have a griselbrand and 3 dredgers in my grave. I decide to use his ability and draw 7, do I get to dredge.......

Firstly, Drayd Arbor is an awesome card like Shadow - it enables a lot of Dread Returns.

Anyways;
Dredging with Grisel, is effectively Draw 1 card, times 7.
So that's seven separate instances od dredging/draw. So you dredge once, choose the order of said cards and put them into the yard. Then from the cards in the yard you get to choose another dredger for draw a card version 2. As each dredge/draw is a seprate action, you can choose a card from the graveyard that has previously been put there during the same "Draw 7" from Grisel.

[Darklingske]

man this is my long term goal.. to pimp the deck...i think only nether shadows cant be foiled out. so you need to buy the alpha version

I've got the whole deck foil, except for 3 Shadows wich I'm still looking to change in Japanese BB. And yes, it is a long process, but sooooooo rewarding :smile:

[NecroYawgmoth]

Foils are ugly, in my opinion.

I have the whole Deck in German black boardered.

It was annoying enough to get all the cards in german, even as a german player. =P

[Final Fortune]

That's the power of friendship! (I think it's also the name of a "My Little Poney" Serie ... not sure :P)

Anway congratz for the result, I was test a version w/o Bloodghast MD, but I miss him too much, and seeing your decklist, I'll go back to that version.

I just have one question, isn't 8 draw effect (street wraith & probe) too much? how have been the probe?

Doubtful, one of the original versions of this deck played with eight baubles in order to golfish as quickly as possible, but personally I feel it's more important to be as disruptive as possible in the first two turns if you want to beat Storm in a match.

[BOSCA]

Storm is a good deck but isn't overplayed and creatures removal are good but in Hollywood example Manaless vs BUG (most played deck in Italy):
t1 fetch bayou + shaman (or Thoughtseize)
t1 discard
t2 unkeep contagion on Shaman: ok Hollywood explain he cant play daze taking back an island, but he can exile fetch for U mana and tap land for daze or Brainstrom for FoW.

if you reveal chancellor:
t1 pass or hi mull to 6 countering a spell for annex ability
t1 discard
t2 scaman tap 2
Chancellor helps Shadow and usefull in all mu, creatures and cantrip.

I'm a Gitaxian fan, it helps us at take information and find a dredger if we havn't in initial's hand. We can see 9 cards instead 8.
I'm also Iona's fan, it's a one card combo unbeatable fore many mu and still a 7/7 fly. In a prevuoius post someone speak like Elesh destroy Elves, Iona do the same naming green.

There are some path to run this deck and for sure this isnt the best deck in the format but maybe can be consistent against every mu(inckuding sb).
Only my 2 cents.

[slave]

I've got the whole deck foil, except for 3 Shadows wich I'm still looking to change in Japanese BB. And yes, it is a long process, but sooooooo rewarding :smile:

Nice!
What were the hardest foils to find?

I love foils, but a lot of the older foils I have are really warped, the cards just won't flatten out no matter what I try.
Do you have this problem also?

[haxorz]

Tournament Report: Top 8 @ Channel Fireball Monthly Legacy (17 Feb).

This was my second ever Legacy tournament, and first time at Channel Fireball. There were ~25 players, so 5 rounds of swiss with a cut to top 8. One thing to note for Manaless Dredge is that Channel Fireball uses a modified play/draw rule for the top 8; the higher seed always chooses to play/draw game 1.

I had been practicing the deck by myself for several weeks, so I was pretty confident in my ability to make correct plays. But I wasn't completely settled on a decklist, especially the sideboard (my biggest weakness as a player is sideboarding). After all the recent discussion in this thread and the articles on Dredge, I wanted to try out Chancellor of the Annex. Here's the decklist I played:

//Main
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[3x] Shambling Shell
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Dread Return
[3x] Griselbrand
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound
[1x] Angel of Despair
[4x] Dryad Arbor

//Sideboard
[4x] Nature's Claim
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest
[4x] Sickening Shoal
[4x] Unmask

Coming into the event, I expected a lot of storm combo, show and tell variants, and jund (since Modern is pretty big at Channel Fireball). The Angel of Despair was for Show and Tell and the Unmasks were for combo decks.

Round 1: Paul with Burn & Dudes
Game 1: He wins the die roll and opens up with a really quick start with two Goblin Guides by the second turn. I kept a really slow hand and end up dying on turn four, right before I was about to stabilize.
In: 4x Sickening Shoal
Out: 1x Dread Return, 1x Griselbrand, 1x Flayer of the Hatebound, 1x Angel of Despair
Game 2: He again opens up quickly with two Goblin Guides by turn two. But I have a really good start and stabilize quickly with a Nether Shadow, Narcomoeba, a bunch of zombie tokens, with two Bridges in my graveyard. After I get rid of the remainder of his hand with Cabal Therapy, he's forced to play defensively. Unfortunately, he topdecks two burn spells in a row to bring me to 0, the turn before I would have alpha-striked.
L 0-2

Round 2: Adam with Burn & Dudes
Game 1: He kept a single-land hand with Goblin Guide, Lightning Bolt, and a bunch of expensive cards like Flame Rift. I have a quick start and Therapy away his Bolt and win the race with zombie tokens.
In: 4x Sickening Shoal
Out: 1x Dread Return, 1x Griselbrand, 1x Flayer of the Hatebound, 1x Angel of Despair
Game 2: I forget what happened here but from my notes it looks like he won via a topdeck after I cleared his board and emptied his hand.
Game 3: A Chancellor in my opening hand makes his turn two Grim Lavamancer feel quite lonely. I forget exactly how the game went, but I remember being it a situation where I had a Bridge and Phantasmagorian in the 'yard with a Arbor, Therapy, and another Bridge in my hand. He Flame Rifts me and then attacks with a Hellspark Elemental and Goblin Guide, hoping to clear the Bridge and win a couple of turns. I trade with his team using a Narcomoeba and zombie token, get another token from my Bridge trigger, and then discard the Bridge and Therapy to Phantasmagorian, play and sac the Arbor to Therapy (whiffing on Fireblast), but seeing a couple more Flame Rifts, meaning he loses the race.
W 2-1

Round 3: Oscar with U/W Stoneblade
Oscar is friends with Adam from last round, so he was well aware of my deck.
Game 1: I don't remember the beginning of the game, but it ended with me having Dread Return and a Griselbrand in my graveyard. I knew his four-card hand was Intuition, JTMS, Land, and ___. He has four lands untapped and is dead on the board next turn from Ichorids. I flashback one of the Dread Returns on Griselbrand, forcing him to use the Intuition to answer the Griselbrand. He gets Force, Spell Pierce, Spell Pierce. I give him the Force and he Forces the Dread Return pitching JTMS. He then draws a blank for his turn and that's the game.
In: 4x Nature's Claim, 2x Verdant Catacombs, 1x Forest
Out: 1x Dread Return, 2x Griselbrand, 1x Flayer of the Hatebound, 1x Angel of Despair, 2x Phantasmagorian
Game 2: I keep a really fast hand with Chancellor. The Chancellor slows him down but my dredges are terrible. I Dread Return a Chancellor, which got Sworded a few turns later. It comes down to him barely stabilizing with Swords on my Ichorids and a Batterskull token, but I just play patiently and mass up a huge army. After the game he tells me he had taken his Rest in Peaces out of his sideboard for this tournament.
W 2-0

Round 4: Jeremy with Leyline, Opalescence & Serra's Sanctum combo
Game 1: I have the almost-nuts and kill him on turn 3. I take note of his weird deck and prepare for Leyline of the Void and other enchantment-based hate in the next game.
In: 4x Nature's Claim, 2x Verdant Catacombs, 1x Forest, 4x Unmask
Out: 2x Dread Return, 3x Griselbrand, 1x Flayer of the Hatebound, 2x Phantasmagorian, 2x Nether Shadow and I forget what else
Game 2: He mulls to seven via Serum Powder, and then to six. I keep a hand with Arbor, Nature's Claims, Street Wraith, and a Dredger. He starts the game with a red Leyline and a Serra's Sanctum. I discard my dredger and pass. On his turn, he plays a plains and a Rest in Peace. I think this is fine since I have the Arbor + Nature's Claims in my hand. So I play the Arbor and pass. But on his turn he plays another Rest in Peace. I'm play draw-go and cycle my Street Wraith for a turn or two. But I get extremely lucky, as there are two more Claims in the top four cards of my deck. I didn't want to start destroying his Rest in Peace's immeadiately since he played Idyllic Tutor the first game, and I didn't want him to tutor up a (second) backup Rest in Peace. My plan works as he instead tutors up an Opalescence, hoping to cast it the next turn. But I EOT Claim one Rest in Peace, and untap and destroy the other one, leaving him without enough mana (via Serra's Sanctum) to play anything. I get to work dredging and win several turns later.
W 2-0

Round 5: Don with U/W Stoneblade
Game 1: I played very conservatively, knowing a win or draw puts me in the top 8. It comes down to me stripping his hand before doing the Dread Return -> Griselbrand, Dread Return -> Flayer, Dread Return -> Troll combo. During the combo turn, I make a mistake and had misread Flayer (thought it triggered whenever a creature entered my battlefield from anywhere), and so I get a warning.
Game 2: He mulligans to four or five, looking for hate cards. It comes down him playing Stoneforge Mystic (getting a Batterskull) -> I Therapy away the Batterskill -> He plays another Mystic (getting a Jitte) -> He equips the Jitte on the first Mystic, attacks me and then kills itself with the -1/-1 counters, removing three Bridges from my graveyard. (I think he should have declined his first Mystic's trigger, since he knew I was going to Therapy away the Batterskull.) No matter - on my turn I animate Griselbrand (I had sided out the Flayer) and draw (not dredge!) a bunch of cards to find a Forest + the final Nature's Claim for his Jitte.
W 2-0

I finish 4-1, in 3rd place.

Quarterfinals: Ricky with Nic Fit
By this time, everyone (including Ricky) knows what I'm playing, but I don't know what he is playing.
Game 1: Ricky keeps a hand with Thoughtseize and Scavenging Ooze (!). I have a Chancellor, forcing him to let his turn 1 Top get countered so he can Thoughtseize on Turn 2 (he must have not realized that I have no maindeck answer to Ooze). I lose fairly quickly after the Ooze comes down.
In: 4x Sickening Shoal
Out: 1x Dread Return, 1x Griselbrand, 1x Flayer of the Hatebound, 1x Angel of Despair
Game 2: He again has a super early Ooze (turn 2?), but I stall with Street Wraith + Phantasmagorian shenanigans. I'm start drawing cards looking for a Shoal but Ricky plays a Gaddock Teeg. I hold out for several more turns with Bridge tricks, but eventually succumb to the Ooze.
L 0-2

Overall I had fun. The deck is a blast to play.

I didn't like the maindeck Angel - As some people have pointed out already, I think just having the second Flayer is more useful.

[RThomas-]

Hi folks, I've been playing around with this deck for a month or two and have a couple things to add.

First, I played this deck at Xanadu Games in Baltimore this past Sunday. I've been out of tournament play for a year or two and it really showed in my 1-3 -> drop record. The only match I won was a depressing mirror against sourcer Jankwolf. The deck has great consistency and broken starts but really under-performs if you don't know what you're doing. I lost to Faeries by mis-naming with Therapy, Show and Tell by mis-sideboarding, and to Reanimator by being too slow. I played the version sourcer Hollywood prefers with an extra Sickening Shoal in the main for Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze, which would have been nice if I played against those decks. So I'd add for those considering this deck to make sure you know what you're doing against each deck; do lots of test-runs beforehand against live opponents (this really hurt me).

I haven't seen it mentioned yet in this thread, so I thought I'd throw this out there: has anyone brainstormed a build incorporating Balustrade Spy? I've been looking this over for about a week or so with some mixed results. So far, I've tried something like this:

4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Shambling Shell

4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe/Chancellor of the Forge
4 Phantasmagorian

3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Contagion/Sickening Shoal

It would work something like this (please correct me if I'm off): find three creatures, Therapy away permission or creature removal, play Dread Return for Balustrade Spy, mill your deck, play Dread Return for Flayer and then Grave-Troll. I'm sure there could be a lot of other iterations but this is what I've looked at so far. I see this sort of build as somewhat similar to the Dakmor Salvage/Bloodghast decks in that a lot of matches would be the same postboard: you're bringing in lands/Reverent Silence for combo pieces (from what I understand, the Salvage/Bloodghast combo comes out, but I haven't tried that one so I'm not sure how those familiar would do it).

So far, the deck has worked somewhat similar to how Griselbrand works: if it comes into play, you usually win. The Spies might cover those conditions where you don't have enough life or can't risk it to win immediately with Griselbrand; admittedly though, I wonder if those similar positions are abundant enough to change the deck's strategy. It takes the tough part of the Salvage build post-side too, so perhaps it isn't worth it. I'm wondering if anyone else has given Balustrade Spy a go yet; I'd like to hear if and how it's working for everyone else.

[Karbunkelsopp]

Balustrade Spy looks interesting.
Upside is you don't have to pay 7 life and you always flip your entire library.

Downside is you have to take out Dryad Arbor (or put it in sideboard) and against Show and Tell you can't mirror the play "he dropped Emrakul, I dropped Griselbrand and won during my turn". It gets more like "he dropped Emrakul and I went Balustrade Spy - my turn -draw - lose". Which is bad.
Could be countered with Noxious Revival though...

Anyways, that makes it at least ONE interesting card from Gatecrash! :cool:

[slave]

It would work something like this (please correct me if I'm off): find three creatures, Therapy away permission or creature removal, play Dread Return for Balustrade Spy, mill your deck, play Dread Return for Flayer and then Grave-Troll.

Balustrade Spy?
Now that's not something I'd even thought of!
I think it could be a worthy new version.

SO lets think about this, this is a one-shot deal.
You're either gonna win or lose when this comes out, but this build relies completely on Flayer being in the graveyard.
Without Flayer, I don't see how you could win on that turn before you get decked. I hoenstly think you'd need more than one FLayer, just to make sure you get around simple removal, like Swords to Plowshares.
Maybe include a single alternate win con in Laboratory Maniac?

So what could stop you game1 once Spy hits the table?
Leyline of Sanctity is the obvious one, but that's not usually in the main, and post board we'll have a load of things to fight through.
Extracting Flayer is the obvious one too. I'm not sure there's many decks that have an option to do much about this in the main for game1, aprt form maybe some rogue mill deck using Leyline of the Void.
Misdirection however is an issue....although that isn't a common card around me.

The worry I have is game 2 or 3, as without Arbor the deck may potentially be slower to rip out a Dread Return or answer multiple hate.

Considering we can't have Dryad Arbor in the deck with Spy, how about Elvish Spirit Guide to cast our Claims or get through the permission crap like Thalia?
This means we'll lose the ability to play Reverent of course, cutting our answers down a bit.....It's not perfect, but it's an option..
Noxious Revival might be an option to get what you need to fight through hate, or to fetch back another Claim possibly. Even post Spy (if you have it in hand of course), and could give you an extra turn if needed (yeah, right:tongue:)

I like the idea. Even if it does seem a little more "All In".
I'm gonna go play around with some ideas.

[rektareloaded]

Tournament Report: Top 8 @ Channel Fireball Monthly Legacy (17 Feb).


not bad! nice finish!

@RThomas
just practice and read some of the previous pages in this thread about what to take out if facing another deck.
for balustrade spy... i dunno ... i dont have to heart to give up griselBANNED! he's just too good facing some decks (burn, rug, etc)

[slave]

....balustrade spy... i dunno ... i dont have to heart to give up griselBANNED! he's just too good facing some decks (burn, rug, etc)

And that's the point isn't it - Spy would have to be better, or more consistent than Grisel.

I've been goldfishing for the last few hours with a slightly differnt list than RTHOMAS, and I've got to admit;
Spy feels very risky.
Once we flop out the entire deck, if either Flayer or Dread Return get extracted we're toast, and even with Labmaniac for an alternate win, we have no way to protect that win-con from simple removal.
At least with Grisel we can leave a small amoutn of cards in the library and give ourselves a few more turns to get the job done if needed.


I'm sure there will be a way to change a list a little to make it more consistent or resilient, but so far I'm not sure about Spy....

[Karbunkelsopp]

Maybe bring back 1-of Flame-Kin Zealot for those extraction moments?
Alpha strike for the win!

Edit: for when flayer gets extracted at least...

[Holly]

Nobody's gonna extract Flayer when they can hit the DR..

[RThomas-]

Good thoughts so far. To cover some areas being questioned,

--Obviously, we don't have to drop Spy when Show and Tell is played. I'm not sure what all of our metas are like, but if we see Show and Tell decks enough that dropping a big creature when they play it is a concern, perhaps we should be looking in other directions for our deck choices.

--Once we Dread Return on our Spy, our entire deck hits the graveyard. I wouldn't think we'd have any trouble winning at that point, since we'd have all of our Therapies and Dread Returns in the grave, along with all of the Narcomoebas left out on the field. On that note, a build with Chancellor of the Forge keeps us away from losing when Flayer is removed by Extract effects. One or two Dread Returns using our leftover Narcomoebas should net the necessary amount of haste Goblins. Perhaps that's a good reason to play Chancellor over something like Gitaxian Probe.

On the other hand, we're certainly not protected when Dread Return is Extracted... if that happens after we return Spy. I would think that if we're doing this correctly, we've played Therapy on whatever relevant hindrance is in their hand in the post-side game. I'd think that Dread Return-ing Spy when Extract effects are possible and unknown is shooting yourself in the foot. That said, there's really no reason that Spy has to be our win every game, just as Griselbrand doesn't; how often, realistically, are we beating down for the win, or Dread Return-ing something else just to get there?

Well done, I'm interested to see where else this goes.

[SquirtMcGirt]

I have led dredge made but I am totally building this deck! Looks hella fun! I am putting together hollywoods list with a few sideboard changes. This deck looks so fun!!! Is the non interactivity the only reason you would play this deck though? Like in a heavy counterspell meta? I just like the idea of playing magic by not playing magic lol.

[Final Fortune]

And that's the point isn't it - Spy would have to be better, or more consistent than Grisel.

I've been goldfishing for the last few hours with a slightly differnt list than RTHOMAS, and I've got to admit;
Spy feels very risky.
Once we flop out the entire deck, if either Flayer or Dread Return get extracted we're toast, and even with Labmaniac for an alternate win, we have no way to protect that win-con from simple removal.
At least with Grisel we can leave a small amoutn of cards in the library and give ourselves a few more turns to get the job done if needed.


I'm sure there will be a way to change a list a little to make it more consistent or resilient, but so far I'm not sure about Spy....

I don't think it's worth it, because if Griselbrands Draw 7 to 14 isn't "full combo mode" then it's close enough, and I think a lot of people fail to appreciate the ability to actually draw, not dredge, 7 cards in order to have business spells in multiple zones of the game so a single Wrath of God or Tormod's Crypt doesn't blow you out.

Spy is probably playable, but he's no where near as flexible as Griselbrand is, and unless he proves himself significantly better than Griselbrand in "full combo mode" then you're just making your deck worse vs Show&Tell and losing the option to play Dryad Arbor. Personally, I don't see the upsides.

[slave]

I don't think it's worth it, because if Griselbrands Draw 7 to 14 isn't "full combo mode" then it's close enough, and I think a lot of people fail to appreciate the ability to actually draw... in order to have business spells....
Spy is probably playable, but he's no where near as flexible as Griselbrand is,....Personally, I don't see the upsides.

Agreed. I don't draw 7 off Grisel very often, but you have a good point. I'm still gonna play around with the list a bit more and see of I can tweak it a bit more in Spy's favour..see if I can come across anything more useful than status quo.


I have led dredge made but I am totally building this deck! Looks hella fun! I am putting together hollywoods list with a few sideboard changes. This deck looks so fun!!! Is the non interactivity the only reason you would play this deck though? Like in a heavy counterspell meta? I just like the idea of playing magic by not playing magic lol.
Counter can still deny you playing anything but the grind-it-out gameplan. Games against counter-heavy decks are easier than with a "fair" deck though, as they'll only be able to stop the combo part of the deck, provided Therapy hasn't worked it's magic. Hyuk!
When I first started playing this deck I thought Manaless was the poorer, less useful cousin of LED Dredge (High five to Hollywood for correcting me on that!:wink:)
Manaless is more consistent than LED Dredge, although less likely to go BANG!!! on turn 2. The non-interactivity is a major plus to getting in a winning position.
LED Dredge tends to crumple to hate a lot easier than Manaless, due to having less threat density, and part of that is being a lot more vulnerable to counter. Manaless also doesn't worry much about Wasteland, as Dryad Arbor isn't necessary to kick some arse.
Don't take my word for it though, I'm a little biased now, as I'm lovin this deck more than any other right now.:tongue:

[rektareloaded]

I have led dredge made but I am totally building this deck! Looks hella fun! I am putting together hollywoods list with a few sideboard changes. This deck looks so fun!!! Is the non interactivity the only reason you would play this deck though? Like in a heavy counterspell meta? I just like the idea of playing magic by not playing magic lol.


you should try using this on a big event.. but try to do some solitaire first before you join and see how it works :laugh:

[sherko7]

Agreed. I don't draw 7 off Grisel very often, but you have a good point. I'm still gonna play around with the list a bit more and see of I can tweak it a bit more in Spy's favour..see if I can come across anything more useful than status quo.


Counter can still deny you playing anything but the grind-it-out gameplan. Games against counter-heavy decks are easier than with a "fair" deck though, as they'll only be able to stop the combo part of the deck, provided Therapy hasn't worked it's magic. Hyuk!
When I first started playing this deck I thought Manaless was the poorer, less useful cousin of LED Dredge (High five to Hollywood for correcting me on that!:wink:)
Manaless is more consistent than LED Dredge, although less likely to go BANG!!! on turn 2. The non-interactivity is a major plus to getting in a winning position.
LED Dredge tends to crumple to hate a lot easier than Manaless, due to having less threat density, and part of that is being a lot more vulnerable to counter. Manaless also doesn't worry much about Wasteland, as Dryad Arbor isn't necessary to kick some arse.
Don't take my word for it though, I'm a little biased now, as I'm lovin this deck more than any other right now.:tongue:

My sentiments as well... I've actually sold my LEDs after a few tournies playing Manaless. I might have placed better with the Quadlaser List, but even while just starting out Manaless seems to be the better option.:tongue:

[rektareloaded]

short tournament report on a local tourney in our area last saturday. (22 players showed up)

game 1 vs high tide (2-0) -> he got no candelabra in the deck so he needs to play more lands to combo out. win!

game 2 vs goblins (2-0) -> he didnt sacrifice his siege gang which griselbrand blocked. Win! :laugh:

game 3 vs omnitell (0-2) -> turn 2 snt to omniscience to enter the infinite playing borborigmos discarding all his lands :eek:

game 4 vs affinity (2-0) -> its his first time facing a dredge deck . Win!

game 5 vs nicfit (2-0) -> :smile:

ended at 2nd place getting 2 pcs hellrider (foil)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

short tournament report again for today's game

game 1 vs elves (0-2) -> got a slow opening hand in rd1 lose!. he drawed his 3 pcs relic of progenitus :cry:

game 2 vs manaless dredge -mirror- (2-1) -> rd 1 he won on his 2nd turn :eek: lose. rd 2 and 3.. 3rd turn kill i think. win!

game 3 vs omnitell (1-2)

game 4 vs the gate (2-1)

game 5 vs RDW (2-0)

10 people showed up.. ended at 5th place.. 8 combo decks and 2 non combo... bad meta for me :laugh:

[slave]

Hey peeps.

A few observations.
Took manaless along recently and had a rude shock.
Deathrite Shaman is weasling into almost every single bloody deck! Now I know this is not a new thing, but every single deck I faced was playing them. Contagion has never been more relevant. Even monogreen rogue decks I played against were playing that little pest.:mad: I had a tough time against all those GSZ > DRS turn 1 plays.

Secondly - Annex is kinda average. I tried it. Don't like it.
(could be more to do with me not facing any Storm the last two outtings I've been packing Manaless btw.)
It's only relevant to turn 1, and almost any deck will just get rid of their least useful spell, or simply pay the mana on turn 2. So the most we hope can for is to slow them down. Now I realise this can potentially be a big thing against Storm - I'm not saying it's a bad choice - but I don't like it.
Nature's Claims for Grafdigger's Cage etc., seems a far better choice in the side for me.

I also gave Unmask a go in the main. I tried to like it, but a lot of the time I found it to be tricky to get the best out of. Against fast combo (that can win t2 or 3) I tried using it quickly, only Brainstorm etc., screws us. Copping a Brainstorm to see nothing relevant (and Therapy next turn will still be a guess for whatever they hid) sucks considering it can cost us a timewalk....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So for me;
Contagion is going up to 4, dropping Sickening SHoals. I've only ever cast SS maybe two or three times EVER after drawing off Grisel (how often that happen right?) And most of the time I wish I had a Contagion instead. Are most of you on the same page here?

RE: Annex - I'm gonna try Forge. It gives me a blocker against so many T1 creature threats (Lackey etc.) and possibly accelerates out a DR on T2 aswell. It's not gonna help against Storm, but I see aggro a lot more than STorm.

One last thing;
I've been running the 2 Verdant Catacomb, 1 Forest tech for ench/art removal for ages.
Lately, this is what's been happening;
Game2 answers & hate, Verdant in my starting 7; T1 lame duck discard, Opponent T2 = Gradigger;s Cage etc., I Wraith on opponent's T2 > My T2 Dredge = Forest in the graveyard.
SHIT!!!:mad:
Now Catacombs isn't just a forest, it's also Dryad Arbor, sure;
But Arbor just BEGS for removal for a turn, and if your opponent is clever Arbor eats it, and your answer is gonna just fester in your hand while they close you out of the game. The only saving grace here, is that no-one would ever comtemplate extracting Arbor.
So I think I'm gonna run an extra forest in the side.

[ykpon]

How is it possible to have a tough time against DRS and dislike Chancellor at the same time? Chancellor is not a combo hate card, in the first place it's your best answer to DRS and discard.


Contagion is going up to 4, dropping Sickening SHoals. I've only ever cast SS maybe two or three times EVER after drawing off Grisel (how often that happen right?) And most of the time I wish I had a Contagion instead. Are most of you on the same page here?
Personally, I have never cast removal after drawing it off Griselbrand yet, when do you need this instead of just winning?


I'm gonna try Forge. It gives me a blocker against so many T1 creature threats (Lackey etc.) and possibly accelerates out a DR on T2 aswell. It's not gonna help against Storm, but I see aggro a lot more than STorm.
If you feel you need a non-Abrob free creature, it's probably a better idea to try Shield Sphere. It has some advantages over red Chancellor, the most important of which is being able to deliver Zombie tokens.

[slave]

Just letting you all know my findings after running Annex & Trap.


How is it possible to have a tough time against DRS and dislike Chancellor at the same time? Chancellor is not a combo hate card, in the first place it's your best answer to DRS and discard. .
And you'd be right most of the time, but last time I left the house with Manaless, Chancellor didn't help me much in this regard.

Simply, they put us on the roll. We get timewalked.
Even if it goes to plan;
Thier turn 2, they pop down a second land and play DRS. Now this isn't bad, but this assumes they're not playing any 0-cost artifacts or alternate mana-sources or other spells that have 0 or alternate costs that cheat into play and only need to pay one to Chancellor.
Paying the Chancellor off (or a 0-coster), and plonking their DRS down on turn 1 is very possibe. Chancellor isn't a strangle hold on turn 1 like we all wish it was!
Okay...maybe I've had a few dud matchups, i dunno. I did face a few rogue decks....
Chancellor didn't seem to slow my opponents hating my turn1 graveyard anywhere near as much as I thought it would.

Personally, I have never cast removal after drawing it off Griselbrand yet, when do you need this instead of just winning? .
A few ways, like Platinum Angel for one - I've had to deal with that thing a few times.
I've never seen Lich in play before, but that's another possibility...
Most of the time, FLayer is enough to deal with it, provided your opponent doesn't have Misdirection/hexproof effects running on the thing.


If you feel you need a non-Abrob free creature, it's probably a better idea to try Shield Sphere. It has some advantages over red Chancellor, the most important of which is being able to deliver Zombie tokens
Maybe, but that's also a Timewalk. Red Chancellor gives me a creature without losing a card from my hand.

[Final Fortune]

Just letting you all know my findings after running Annex & Trap.


And you'd be right most of the time, but last time I left the house with Manaless, Chancellor didn't help me much in this regard.

Simply, they put us on the roll. We get timewalked.
Even if it goes to plan;
Thier turn 2, they pop down a second land and play DRS. Now this isn't bad, but this assumes they're not playing any 0-cost artifacts or alternate mana-sources or other spells that have 0 or alternate costs that cheat into play and only need to pay one to Chancellor.
Paying the Chancellor off (or a 0-coster), and plonking their DRS down on turn 1 is very possibe. Chancellor isn't a strangle hold on turn 1 like we all wish it was!
Okay...maybe I've had a few dud matchups, i dunno. I did face a few rogue decks....
Chancellor didn't seem to slow my opponents hating my turn1 graveyard anywhere near as much as I thought it would.

A few ways, like Platinum Angel for one - I've had to deal with that thing a few times.
I've never seen Lich in play before, but that's another possibility...
Most of the time, FLayer is enough to deal with it, provided your opponent doesn't have Misdirection/hexproof effects running on the thing.


Maybe, but that's also a Timewalk. Red Chancellor gives me a creature without losing a card from my hand.

No deck in the format plays Deathrite Shaman and 0cc artifacts, and I think in order to gain an appreciation for how good Chancellor of the Annex is in Dredge then you actually have to play against Dredge with Chancellor of the Annex to understand how annoying it is.

[rektareloaded]

since I'll be joining tomorrow's major legacy event in our country, I took some time to browse some of the top decklist we can see in SCG and in other countries to see what are the things they usually have for GY hate/dredge hate. this is also to help myself and some of my fellow dredgers to figure out or to have an idea what other decks might have for us on postboarding.

let's take a look at UW/UWB stoneblade

SIDEBOARD #1
1 Force of Will
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Path to Exile
1 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Perish

SIDEBOARD #2
1 Force of Will
1 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Hydroblast
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Disenchant
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Duress
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction

SIDEBOARD #3
2 Force of Will
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Detention Sphere
2 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Flusterstorm
1 Perish
1 Deathmark
1 Celestial Purge

so we might be facing surgicals and relic (and extirpate for some) vs this deck
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
vs RUG Delver

SIDEBOARD #1
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Chill
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
2 Rough / Tumble

SIDEBOARD #2
1 Rough / Tumble
4 Submerge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Divert
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Pithing Needle

SIDEBOARD #3
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough / Tumble
2 Pithing Needle
4 Submerge
2 Engineered Explosives

i guess it will still be surgical , rough/tumble and explosives
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
vs SNT variants

SIDEBOARD #1
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wipe Away
1 Misdirection
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Mindbreak Trap

wow! this one hurts!

SIDEBOARD #2
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pyroclasm
2 Through the Breach
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wipe Away

SIDEBOARD #3
4 Defense Grid
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Stifle
2 Karakas

OMG!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
vs BUG variants (aside from drs)

SIDEBOARD #1
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Engineered Plague
4 Force of Will
1 Life from the Loam
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize

SIDEBOARD #2
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Submerge
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction

probably surgicals
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
vs Jund

SIDEBOARD #1
1 Punishing Fire
2 Extirpate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Krosan Grip
1 Choke
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Confusion in the Ranks
1 Angel of Despair
2 Duress

SIDEBOARD #2
1 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Plague
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Duress
3 Pyroblast

SIDEBOARD #3
1 Punishing Fire
1 Angel of Despair
1 Confusion in the Ranks
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Extirpate
2 Duress

=>tormod's crypt and extirpate (and some explosives)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

wish us luck for tomorrows event.. hopefully one of us here will take home the set of taiga

[slave]

No deck in the format plays Deathrite Shaman and 0cc artifacts, and I think in order to gain an appreciation for how good Chancellor of the Annex is in Dredge then you actually have to play against Dredge with Chancellor of the Annex to understand how annoying it is.

Well I guess the peeps around me play decks a bit different than around you?
Fact is, I played against it. If 0cc cards and DRS together in the same deck aren't popular round you, than I can understand your viewpoint.

But I can think of one deck straight off the top of my head that plays DRS and 0-cc cards, Pact Spanish Inquisition.
My knowledge of Legacy "decks" is quite limited, I'm sure many of you know more achetypes than me. But there's got to be more than that, just based on what I played against.
CHalice of the Void is pretty common round here, pretty easy to ditch that to Chancelllor and then drop DRS (which is what happened to me twice in game 2 and 3 of one MU)
Or;
Maybe just some original builds floating around?, or some peeps chucking DRS into other well-known decks that have G or B?
I dunno. Of the matchups I had that I did recognise, NicFit was good fodder for Annex, as was Jund. Both decks were as you say. The others I didn't recognise.

Annex was good - no question it made opponents play out their hand differently, and for that it is a good choice - but the other night it didn't stop the majority of turn1 plays like I thought it would. I was playing it out of the side only.

You guys seem pretty happy with Annexs' inclusion.
Do you all play this bugger out of the side, or are you mainboarding it?

[Graf_Caligula]

Hello folks,

I am new to this forum but lingered around here for a while.

I play hollywood's list exept -1 Flayer +1 Angel of Despair.




You guys seem pretty happy with Annexs' inclusion.
Do you all play this bugger out of the side, or are you mainboarding it?

Atm I am giving it a try MD with 2shoals and 2contagion in SB.

It helps if you are on the draw, even more if you are put on the play, protects against early discard, is nice for Dread return if you have no Grisel/Flayer in your graveyard and helps our nether shadows. And all that without timewalking ourselves. Seems nice to me.

It does not do very much on his own but it seems to have a good synergy with the deck. I like when it shines in my starting hand to ease the first turns.

MD or SB? Mmh... Since our first turns are crucial I would play it MD. Postboard it helps too.
On the other hand manaless is that consistant so that it might not be really necessary MD.

I do not play much against TES or ANT but I like it, too, in other matchups.

Only my humble opinion. Cya

P.S.: Good luck, Rektar!

[SquirtMcGirt]

Cards on the way to finish the deck! I'll have led dredge and manaless dredge put together. Won't even have to swap cards. I cant wait to get this together and play with this beast!

[kwis]

Playing Spy would require you to cut Dryad Arbors and any potential Dakmoar Salvage - Bloodghast plan. I'm not sure that I'd want to cut those, however on the flip side if you can hit it with DR then you're guaranteed to hit all the remaining resources in your deck.

It also seems more vulnerable to Stifle.

[slave]

Playing Spy would require you to cut Dryad Arbors and any potential Dakmoar Salvage - Bloodghast plan. I'm not sure that I'd want to cut those, however on the flip side if you can hit it with DR then you're guaranteed to hit all the remaining resources in your deck.

It also seems more vulnerable to Stifle.

Yeah, it is a risky play.
I wouldn't worry too much about Stifle, as it'll only delay you. Just DR another Spy....
Moreso I'd worry about all the POP artifacts like Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progentius that could be sac'd in response.

Since RThomas suggested it I've tried quite a few different builds.
And no matter how I do it, I can't seem to cure the vulnerable side of it and retain the character of manaless.
The best I've tested is a less likely to win in a single turn version. Simply include a single Land/Dryad Arbor, similar to Charbelcher decks do. Less chance of killing yourself, but also less likely to win immediately, although it would force us to win via grinding it out like most post-side games.
Post sideboard, this would be a nightmare to win through hate......
other versions sacrificed safety for speed or vice-versa.

I give up!

[sherko7]

I've been considering going "fearless" against artifact/enchantment hate, as number 1 they're rarely being played now due to DRS, and number 2 they're simply unreliable/inconsistent. You need BOTH Arbor and Claim/Silence in your opening hand or you're screwed, no way am I mulling for those. With Arbor gone, this can easily be replaced by 4 Chancellor of the Annex, which in my opinion, is simply the SHIT. I've been playtesting this against a couple of the more popular decks in our meta and it has worked wonders! Not only does it delay Brainstorm/Ponder for blue-based decks, it stalls DRS by a turn (and as all of you might already know, turn 1 DRS is the only DRS that a capable Manaless Dredge player fears), screws loose keeps (oh, so you kept a zero 1-drop hand because you had 2 lands and a Bob/SFM huh?) and finally it helps the deck go "faster" as our opponents go "slower".

By going "fearless", we open up shitloads of space in our SB. Removal obviously is the first choice (I've delegated much of the removal in the board as I am playing around with Bloodghasts and Probes again) followed by more combo hate (Mindbreak Trap). I can finally alot 2-4 spaces for the SnT matchup (Kederekt Leviathan and/or a split with Angel of Despair). I'm also trying to fit in 7-8 slots for LEDs and Faithless Looting which helps a lot when our opponent "time walks" us G2:

2 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Kederekt Leviathan
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Faithless Looting

Anyway, will be busy playing Nic Fit for a while :)

[slave]

I've been considering going "fearless" against artifact/enchantment hate, as number 1 they're rarely being played now due to DRS.

I wish you luck!
I would think your game1% will be boosted, but after that I'm curious just how much this side would benefit you running without answers to ench/art's.
I'm too scared, as I hate just copping Grafdigger's/LotV/RiP two games in a row with no answer at all.
I run 4 (forest & 3 verdant) additional sources in the side personally.

If you're truly going down this path, please let us know your game win/loss %'s though games 1, 2 and 3.
And don't forget that even decks like Goblins are running RiP these days....
I would consdier testing against a Enlightened Tutor deck too.

[TraxDaMax]

I've been considering going "fearless" against artifact/enchantment hate, as number 1 they're rarely being played now due to DRS, and number 2 they're simply unreliable/inconsistent. You need BOTH Arbor and Claim/Silence in your opening hand or you're screwed, no way am I mulling for those. With Arbor gone, this can easily be replaced by 4 Chancellor of the Annex, which in my opinion, is simply the SHIT. I've been playtesting this against a couple of the more popular decks in our meta and it has worked wonders! Not only does it delay Brainstorm/Ponder for blue-based decks, it stalls DRS by a turn (and as all of you might already know, turn 1 DRS is the only DRS that a capable Manaless Dredge player fears), screws loose keeps (oh, so you kept a zero 1-drop hand because you had 2 lands and a Bob/SFM huh?) and finally it helps the deck go "faster" as our opponents go "slower".

By going "fearless", we open up shitloads of space in our SB. Removal obviously is the first choice (I've delegated much of the removal in the board as I am playing around with Bloodghasts and Probes again) followed by more combo hate (Mindbreak Trap). I can finally alot 2-4 spaces for the SnT matchup (Kederekt Leviathan and/or a split with Angel of Despair). I'm also trying to fit in 7-8 slots for LEDs and Faithless Looting which helps a lot when our opponent "time walks" us G2:

2 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Kederekt Leviathan
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Faithless Looting

Anyway, will be busy playing Nic Fit for a while :)

I don't understand how running LED's and Faithless Lootings sideboard is any different in the consistency then running lands and Disenchant effects in the side.

[sherko7]

I don't understand how running LED's and Faithless Lootings sideboard is any different in the consistency then running lands and Disenchant effects in the side.

LEDs in your opening hand in G2 work great even without Looting. It also gives us the option to mull for it in G2 as even without Looting in your GY you still get to discard your whole hand. You basically go from all in G1 to NUTS AND BALLS ALL IN G2 if need be. Mulling/inconsistency issues with the anti-hate we pack post board is a different thing. LEDs post board offers explosiveness on the play. You only need LEDs in the opening hand, Looting is not an issue. Even if you keep 7 and DDD, you can keep the LED until you have Looting in the yard and just fuck the game up. FEARLESS :laugh:

I will definitely try this out, maybe in the next few bigger tourneys in our country. But time is not yet ripe. Everyone is still scared of Mr. rektareloaded! :laugh:

[slave]

LEDs in your opening hand in G2 work great even without Looting. It also gives us the option to mull for it in G2 as even without Looting in your GY you still get to discard your whole hand. You basically go from all in G1 to NUTS AND BALLS ALL IN G2 if need be. Mulling/inconsistency issues with the anti-hate we pack post board is a different thing. LEDs post board offers explosiveness on the play. You only need LEDs in the opening hand, Looting is not an issue. Even if you keep 7 and DDD, you can keep the LED until you have Looting in the yard and just fuck the game up. FEARLESS :laugh:

I will definitely try this out, maybe in the next few bigger tourneys in our country. But time is not yet ripe. Everyone is still scared of Mr. rektareloaded! :laugh:

I'd like to know how you go with LED's. They solve the mulling prob. like you say.
Anti-Synergy with Wraith & Probe seems pretty *meh* though, they are definitely putting all your efforts into the yard, hoping your dredging turns something up worth the effort.
So you have Annex to slow them down, and LED with Wraith, Probe & Phants to accelerate before they can hate your first dredger in the yard.
Gonna have to test it myself, so much accleration has me very curious!.:cool: although I'm still a bit scared of hate.....

[sherko7]

I'd like to know how you go with LED's. They solve the mulling prob. like you say.
Anti-Synergy with Wraith & Probe seems pretty *meh* though, they are definitely putting all your efforts into the yard, hoping your dredging turns something up worth the effort.
So you have Annex to slow them down, and LED with Wraith, Probe & Phants to accelerate before they can hate your first dredger in the yard.
Gonna have to test it myself, so much accleration has me very curious!.:cool: although I'm still a bit scared of hate.....

Not really anti-synergy, you can cast Probe or cycle Wraith, hold priority, and activate LED. Much like how it works with Breakthrough :laugh:

[Mrheizenberg]

I've been considering going "fearless" against artifact/enchantment hate, as number 1 they're rarely being played now due to DRS, and number 2 they're simply unreliable/inconsistent. You need BOTH Arbor and Claim/Silence in your opening hand or you're screwed, no way am I mulling for those. With Arbor gone, this can easily be replaced by 4 Chancellor of the Annex, which in my opinion, is simply the SHIT. I've been playtesting this against a couple of the more popular decks in our meta and it has worked wonders! Not only does it delay Brainstorm/Ponder for blue-based decks, it stalls DRS by a turn (and as all of you might already know, turn 1 DRS is the only DRS that a capable Manaless Dredge player fears), screws loose keeps (oh, so you kept a zero 1-drop hand because you had 2 lands and a Bob/SFM huh?) and finally it helps the deck go "faster" as our opponents go "slower".

By going "fearless", we open up shitloads of space in our SB. Removal obviously is the first choice (I've delegated much of the removal in the board as I am playing around with Bloodghasts and Probes again) followed by more combo hate (Mindbreak Trap). I can finally alot 2-4 spaces for the SnT matchup (Kederekt Leviathan and/or a split with Angel of Despair). I'm also trying to fit in 7-8 slots for LEDs and Faithless Looting which helps a lot when our opponent "time walks" us G2:

2 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Kederekt Leviathan
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Faithless Looting

Anyway, will be busy playing Nic Fit for a while :)

I'm pretty happy to see some others Manaless players trying LED in their SB.

I just think you still have some fear with this type of SB :

Try this list, it is really tight and scoops on Leyline but very fun :

ManaLeD

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

SB: 3 Deep Analysis
SB: 4 Desperate Ravings
SB: 4 Lion's Eye Diamond
SB: 4 Sickening Shoal

The goal is pretty simple, to go off before hate comes. You add massive business in G2 to explode T1-T2.

+11 cards : 4 LED +7 Blue draw spells (you will see why i don't use faithless)
-11 cards : -1 Flayer, -4 Phantasman, -3 Shambling, -2 Grisel - 1 Shadow

In this type of plan, Chancelor is really nut, it gives protection to land a LED and use a draw spell and also is a Fat target to DR. Taxing effect T1 is quite insane.
You got 15 draw spells and you can chain them :

Put LED in play :
Play Probe in response recycle Streetwraith and in response crack LED. I got 7 chances to draw more with Analysis + desperate taking blue mana from LED (got a fizzle factor if i run Faithless)


I don't understand how running LED's and Faithless Lootings sideboard is any different in the consistency then running lands and Disenchant effects in the side.

With disenchant effects you can't decently take a mulligan and it results to some more timewalk for you. With a LED side based, you can mulligan if your hand is really horrible or just mull to get a LED and a dredge card with the drawback that you scoop against LL.

[sherko7]

I'm pretty happy to see some others Manaless players trying LED in their SB.

I just think you still have some fear with this type of SB :

Try this list, it is really tight and scoops on Leyline but very fun :

ManaLeD

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

SB: 3 Deep Analysis
SB: 4 Desperate Ravings
SB: 4 Lion's Eye Diamond
SB: 4 Sickening Shoal

The goal is pretty simple, to go off before hate comes. You add massive business in G2 to explode T1-T2.

+11 cards : 4 LED +7 Blue draw spells (you will see why i don't use faithless)
-11 cards : -1 Flayer, -4 Phantasman, -3 Shambling, -2 Grisel - 1 Shadow

In this type of plan, Chancelor is really nut, it gives protection to land a LED and use a draw spell and also is a Fat target to DR. Taxing effect T1 is quite insane.
You got 15 draw spells and you can chain them :

Put LED in play :
Play Probe in response recycle Streetwraith and in response crack LED. I got 7 chances to draw more with Analysis + desperate taking blue mana from LED (got a fizzle factor if i run Faithless)



With disenchant effects you can't decently take a mulligan and it results to some more timewalk for you. With a LED side based, you can mulligan if your hand is really horrible or just mull to get a LED and a dredge card with the drawback that you scoop against LL.


Why Deep Anal? Faithless Looting pls :laugh: And I don't think playing more than 4 draw spells (other than Probe, Wraith isn't a spell) is good. They're dead in your opening without LED. On the other hand, LED is certainly as good with or without a draw effect.

[Ziilot]

Why Deep Anal? Faithless Looting pls :laugh: And I don't think playing more than 4 draw spells (other than Probe, Wraith isn't a spell) is good. They're dead in your opening without LED. On the other hand, LED is certainly as good with or without a draw effect.

Because you want to crack LED for U

[slave]

Because you want to crack LED for U

Only if you're playing Desperate Ravings and Deep Analysis.
Faithless is good because the dredgers you just gained go back to the yard, instead of being stuck there hoping for Phantasmagorian.

I don't think I'd wanna play with 8 cards in the main that need an LED, seeing as LED's don't return from the yard......:confused:

[Final Fortune]

LEDs in your opening hand in G2 work great even without Looting. It also gives us the option to mull for it in G2 as even without Looting in your GY you still get to discard your whole hand. You basically go from all in G1 to NUTS AND BALLS ALL IN G2 if need be. Mulling/inconsistency issues with the anti-hate we pack post board is a different thing. LEDs post board offers explosiveness on the play. You only need LEDs in the opening hand, Looting is not an issue. Even if you keep 7 and DDD, you can keep the LED until you have Looting in the yard and just fuck the game up. FEARLESS :laugh:

I will definitely try this out, maybe in the next few bigger tourneys in our country. But time is not yet ripe. Everyone is still scared of Mr. rektareloaded! :laugh:

I'd be super excited in order to be able to play the Serum Powder, Lion's Eye Diamond and Faithless Looting package again

[TraxDaMax]

LEDs in your opening hand in G2 work great even without Looting. It also gives us the option to mull for it in G2 as even without Looting in your GY you still get to discard your whole hand. You basically go from all in G1 to NUTS AND BALLS ALL IN G2 if need be. Mulling/inconsistency issues with the anti-hate we pack post board is a different thing. LEDs post board offers explosiveness on the play. You only need LEDs in the opening hand, Looting is not an issue. Even if you keep 7 and DDD, you can keep the LED until you have Looting in the yard and just fuck the game up. FEARLESS :laugh:

I will definitely try this out, maybe in the next few bigger tourneys in our country. But time is not yet ripe. Everyone is still scared of Mr. rektareloaded! :laugh:

As much as I love inovation and trying stuff, I still don't really get the LED package. Sorry :-)
Why would you want that explosiveness game 2?
I could understand LED/Faithless main and side it out game2, since this could have us actually be able to start game 1. And be explosive game 1, while having less fear of hate game 2.
The other way around just sounds strange to me.

[slave]

Why would you want that explosiveness game 2?
Leyline of the Void = autolose.:cry:
Considering RiP comes in on turn 2, speed would be everything provided LotV has been dodged.

[TraxDaMax]

Leyline of the Void = autolose.:cry:
Considering RiP comes in on turn 2, speed would be everything provided LotV has been dodged.

Well, I thought that was the reason we played Dryad Arbor, and Reverent Silence plus Nature's Claim in side.

Before Hollywood brought Dryad maindeck, I was running 4 Dryad, 3 Fetch, 1 Forest side together with 4 Nature's Claim and 3 Rev. Silence. And I more then once blew up Leyline turn 1 or 2.
Usually because opponents back then didn't expect it.

But being explosive game 2 doesn't help game 2 against leyline of the void.

[sherko7]

Because you want to crack LED for U


Only if you're playing Desperate Ravings and Deep Analysis.
Faithless is good because the dredgers you just gained go back to the yard, instead of being stuck there hoping for Phantasmagorian.

I don't think I'd wanna play with 8 cards in the main that need an LED, seeing as LED's don't return from the yard......:confused:

Definitely I would only want 3-4 Faithless Lootings with 4 LEDs in the SB. I think more would just kill us unless there's any way to play 5-8 LEDs :)


I'd be super excited in order to be able to play the Serum Powder, Lion's Eye Diamond and Faithless Looting package again

Serum Powder might work well with the game plan post board but it just takes too much space. LED is the only dead card I want in my GY, as it makes up for that fact by being just plain explosive in your opening.


As much as I love inovation and trying stuff, I still don't really get the LED package. Sorry :-)
Why would you want that explosiveness game 2?
I could understand LED/Faithless main and side it out game2, since this could have us actually be able to start game 1. And be explosive game 1, while having less fear of hate game 2.
The other way around just sounds strange to me.


Well, I thought that was the reason we played Dryad Arbor, and Reverent Silence plus Nature's Claim in side.

Before Hollywood brought Dryad maindeck, I was running 4 Dryad, 3 Fetch, 1 Forest side together with 4 Nature's Claim and 3 Rev. Silence. And I more then once blew up Leyline turn 1 or 2.
Usually because opponents back then didn't expect it.

But being explosive game 2 doesn't help game 2 against leyline of the void.

Don't get me wrong, but I am just trying out a new route by going "FEARLESS". My stand is that anti-hate is simply useless if you don't draw it in your opening, and with how Manaless works you simply can't afford to mull down to even 6 for that. I can't recall the number of times that I just prayed I draw 1 Arbor 1 Nature's Claim in my opening as I knew my opponent was playing Cage, then I just don't get it and decide to keep a hand that just dies to it. Add that to the fact that most people are already foregoing GY-specific hate cards as they're confident their DRS or their friends'/other players' DRS scare the dredge players away.

Basically, since we'll usually be on the play post-board, by bringing in LEDs and Lootings we will have the ability to mull to LED, show a Chancellor, and then just freakin' win the following turn. :)

Of course, haven't tested it too much. Will let you guys know how it pans out. :smile:

[slave]

Call to the Netherworld if you're going fearless?
Sac LED, then discard your hand = pay the madness cost, and then recur a Wraith to your hand to dredge some more..... just an idea.
Could also use it at end of turn to grab a Wraith from the yard a second time and DDD.

Wha'chu think Sherko?

[SquirtMcGirt]

Hey guys! I just got this deck a few days ago and have been goldfishing it intensely lol. Today i finally got to play some real games and I am kinda stuck with what I want to do. I played extensive games against belcher, elves, reanimator (not tin fins) a UR delver snapcaster burn thing and high tide. THIS. DECK. IS. THE. SHIZ. It is so consistent! I am playing hollywoods list. I don't want the creature removal main deck, so that gives me four slots to fill. Chancellor was definitely an mvp in the slot. It helped soooo much against every deck i played and seems to give you just enough of a boost in the beginning to start getting things done. But I also tried gitaxian probe in the slot too and i liked it a whole lot as well, knowing what to call on the first therapy was awesome and it gives you basically a +1 turn worth of dredging boost. And that's where I'm torn. I like chancellor for the early disruption, its a good DR target and triggers nether shadow. I like gitaxian probe because it speeds you up a turn (theoretically lol) and makes therapy count. I cant decide which is better. What do you guys think?

[slave]

I don't want the creature removal main deck, so that gives me four slots to fill. Chancellor (or) gitaxian probe?

Annex is better. It acts as pseudo-protection for your end-of-first-turn discard, as without them blowing up a 0-cost spell, they won't be able to pay the 1.
Probe can't be played until turn 2, so it means that DRS, Relic of Progenitus etc will still be able to kill your first turn discard, and stop you doing anything besides wish mummy would fix it.:cry:

Don't worry about always hitting with Therapy, you'll get better as you get to know the deck types and learn which cards are murderous against us.

After a dickload more testing, I've dropped the maindeck removal and put Annex in there too.
Despite my earlier whinging about it....... it's pretty good.

[sherko7]

Call to the Netherworld if you're going fearless?
Sac LED, then discard your hand = pay the madness cost, and then recur a Wraith to your hand to dredge some more..... just an idea.
Could also use it at end of turn to grab a Wraith from the yard a second time and DDD.

Wha'chu think Sherko?

Call to the Netherworld would be great! But I really don't like building too much around the post board LEDs. As I said earlier, the 3-4 Faithless Lootings would suffice for me. Call to the Netherworld would probably be an option if and only if it was MD-able. Too bad it isn't. :(

[SquirtMcGirt]

Annex is better. It acts as pseudo-protection for your end-of-first-turn discard, as without them blowing up a 0-cost spell, they won't be able to pay the 1.
Probe can't be played until turn 2, so it means that DRS, Relic of Progenitus etc will still be able to kill your first turn discard, and stop you doing anything besides wish mummy would fix it.:cry:

Don't worry about always hitting with Therapy, you'll get better as you get to know the deck types and learn which cards are murderous against us.

After a dickload more testing, I've dropped the maindeck removal and put Annex in there too.
Despite my earlier whinging about it....... it's pretty good.

Chancellor felt like the better card overall, but there were instances when it felt like being a little faster would have won games, but chancellor left me feeling like it was was better. It really shined against reanimator (fuck you entomb for elesh norn lol) and against belcher. This deck is amazingly consistent though holy hell.

[sherko7]

Chancellor felt like the better card overall, but there were instances when it felt like being a little faster would have won games, but chancellor left me feeling like it was was better. It really shined against reanimator (fuck you entomb for elesh norn lol) and against belcher. This deck is amazingly consistent though holy hell.

Sometimes, you get to DR Chancellor on your first actual turn (the turn you dredge)... And boy o boy, what an amazing feeling that is. :laugh:

[SquirtMcGirt]

Sometimes, you get to DR Chancellor on your first actual turn (the turn you dredge)... And boy o boy, what an amazing feeling that is. :laugh:

That is dirty as hell man! Lmao

[slave]

Dread Return a Chancellor - First turn? How?
Once you first turn discard, I thought that was it - you couldn't activatePhants/Wraith your dredger until your opponents' end step, therefore DR until turn 2?
(DR is a sorcery anyways)

[sherko7]

Dread Return a Chancellor - First turn? How?
Once you first turn discard, I thought that was it - you couldn't activatePhants/Wraith your dredger until your opponents' end step, therefore DR until turn 2?
(DR is a sorcery anyways)

If you read closely I did say "first actual turn" with "the turn you Dredge" in parenthesis :laugh: Did this against Elves combo (my brother) the other day... Damn fun times. :laugh:

[slave]

If you read closely I did say "first actual turn" with "the turn you Dredge" in parenthesis :laugh: Did this against Elves combo (my brother) the other day... Damn fun times. :laugh:

Oh man.... I guess I didn't think about that one much b4 I hit reply. :confused:
Although;
If you have a dredger in hand, Wraith, Probe and LED on turn 1, instead of end of turn discard; > Play LED, Cast Probe, Cycle Wraith, Activate LED > Dredge away.
And who knows, you may even get a first turn Therapy that way too?:cool:
With DRS around the traps, I like this option!

[sherko7]

Oh man.... I guess I didn't think about that one much b4 I hit reply. :confused:
Although;
If you have a dredger in hand, Wraith, Probe and LED on turn 1, instead of end of turn discard; > Play LED, Cast Probe, Cycle Wraith, Activate LED > Dredge away.
And who knows, you may even get a first turn Therapy that way too?:cool:
With DRS around the traps, I like this option!

In G2 this is almost always a good play. Firstly, blue decks like to board out FoW against us. Second, well you're on the play. Third, might as well go nuts the first turn instead of going DDD if you have a draw effect and LED in your opening. :tongue:

[SquirtMcGirt]

What do you guys think about this sb (i know your talking about led in the sb, but if i wanna run led i would just play mana dredge)

4 reverent silence
2 natures claim
2 verdant catacombs
1 forest
3 noxious revival
3 unmask

I was thinking about maybe changing the revivals to something else but they have worked out great for me so far. I really like unmask out of the board on top of chancellor of the annex. Really seems to be getting it done against belcher and reanimator.

[TraxDaMax]

What do you guys think about this sb (i know your talking about led in the sb, but if i wanna run led i would just play mana dredge)

4 reverent silence
2 natures claim
2 verdant catacombs
1 forest
3 noxious revival
3 unmask

I was thinking about maybe changing the revivals to something else but they have worked out great for me so far. I really like unmask out of the board on top of chancellor of the annex. Really seems to be getting it done against belcher and reanimator.

For me, this is pretty much the way I'd build my sideboard, with the Unmasks being the flex spots.

[SquirtMcGirt]

For me, this is pretty much the way I'd build my sideboard, with the Unmasks being the flex spots.

There are a couple if times i wished that unmask was removal, but most of the time its good enough.

[slave]

In G2 this is almost always a good play. Firstly, blue decks like to board out FoW against us. Second, well you're on the play. Third, might as well go nuts the first turn instead of going DDD if you have a draw effect and LED in your opening. :tongue:

So I've been having a go at the fearless approach.
I'm not having much fun with Faithless Looting. Having a LED in the starting 7 is a pretty low chance.:rolleyes:
LED already has probe/wraith that do well with it, that don't need LED to be a good card. Looting feels a bit win-more.
Are you finding the same so far in testing?

What about Mishra's Bauble or Urza's Bauble as accelerators?
I don't remember them being fantastic or anything, but I'm gonna try em out again, see if your ASAP approach makes them any better.
Not better than Looting combined with LED, but the baubles give us acceleration regardless of LED.
The biggest drawback I can see so far, is that playing these means you may not be sac'ing them until turn2 to setup turn 3, should you have no acceleration in your starting 7.
Of course, with a hand like Wraith, Probe, LED and Bauble... oh man!

[sherko7]

So I've been having a go at the fearless approach.
I'm not having much fun with Faithless Looting. Having a LED in the starting 7 is a pretty low chance.:rolleyes:
LED already has probe/wraith that do well with it, that don't need LED to be a good card. Looting feels a bit win-more.
Are you finding the same so far in testing?

What about Mishra's Bauble or Urza's Bauble as accelerators?
I don't remember them being fantastic or anything, but I'm gonna try em out again, see if your ASAP approach makes them any better.
Not better than Looting combined with LED, but the baubles give us acceleration regardless of LED.
The biggest drawback I can see so far, is that playing these means you may not be sac'ing them until turn2 to setup turn 3, should you have no acceleration in your starting 7.
Of course, with a hand like Wraith, Probe, LED and Bauble... oh man!

Not much testing on my part, been pretty busy. :( But really though, instead of Baubles I'd still prefer Looting. You really don't need to have to be able to cast Looting before using LED. G2 I'd just play it and just pass the turn even without draw spells in hand. Of course, you could always mull. Basically the LED gives you an opportunity to discard your hand even on the play, and start dredging the next turn, regardless of whether or not you can cast Looting with it. :smile:

[SquirtMcGirt]

Wouldnt running led undermine the whole point of the deck? I mean as far as giving your opponent as little chance of interacting with you as possible? I mean i understand your just trying to go balls out as quick as possible but the way i see it, your probably gonna win game 1, but games two and three are where you have to worry (unless your playing that gay ass rest in peace deck with helm) wouldnt bringing in led and spells hurt you? And even worse, what if you lose g2? Now they are ready for you g3. Wouldnt it just be better to go with your plan and worry about their hate? I understand trying to innovate and be more creative with the deck but i dont know if thats worth it if your going to undermine the while point of the deck in the first place, which is non interactivity with your opponent. I could be wrong though, keep testing. I just feel like if i wanna play led and spells i might as well run land and play led dredge.

[slave]

Wouldnt running led undermine the whole point of the deck? I mean as far as giving your opponent as little chance of interacting with you as possible?.. ...wouldnt bringing in led and spells hurt you? ... I understand trying to innovate (but why) undermine the while point of the deck in the first place, which is non interactivity with your opponent

All good points, but isn't it fun doing it anyway? :laugh:

I'm digging the interaction between Probe, Wraith & LED.
I've been trying a few different lists.
The biggest issue I find with LED (or any list with lots of accleration) and no Dryad Arbor, is that getting to 3 creatures isn't that easy, especialy if you have exile-type removal to contend with. Arbor was quite helpful there...
I've had fun goldfishing with;
4 of the CORE 4 dredgers (4 of all except 3 of SS), 4 Icky & 4 Shad's.
4 Probe, 4 LED, 4 BfBelow, 4 Therapy and 4 Dr's.
3 Balustrade Spy, 1-2 Flayer, 1 Worldspine Wurm/Blightsteel Colossus.

So why Spy?
Since Rthomas suggested this little dude, I've been goldfishing a bit trying to get a list going to have some fun with. A combo approach sucks, cos you have no plan B, but in the manaless build, you have a few different ways to kill.
If DR gets this guy into the field, you have a high chance of winning. If you don't manage to win on that turn, Worldspine Wurm (or Blightsteel Colossus etc.) will give ou another turn, in which Flayer together with a mass army of Ichorids and Shadows will burn out your opponent. If that doesn't happen, just swarm attack them for the win.
Spy doesn't care if you have less than 7 life, like Mr. Grisel either.

So far in goldfishing I've managed to combo off a Spy on turn 1 a few times, turn2 quite a few times.
YES, a turn 1 win with manaless! Is it reliable - Hell NO!
Is it playable? Dunno.. but I've been having some fun with it. :wink: I might just take this sucker to the next night out for a laugh.

[SquirtMcGirt]

That sounds cool man! But...magic for fun? Who does that? Lmfao jk jk. See i really like probe in the deck but the only thing id be willing to cut would be chancellor of the mother fucking annex...and that card is balls out awesome against everything. And not having dryad arbor would suck. That card wins games for real. I love just plopping that little fucker down like dread return? Lol

[RThomas-]

Some notes to share based on what slave- and I have tried:

We're making some progress but I think we're on the wrong track regarding what works well in the deck. Specifically, regarding a "combo" with Spy versus Dryad Arbor and Griselbrand, we should ask:


What configuration of cards gets us to three creatures the best?
What can we do with one configuration that we can't do with another?
How do those configurations help or hurt us over a three-game match?


The deck doesn't have a great deal of trouble getting to three creatures by the third turn unless it doesn't give any dredgers (which is a wash for all strategies), no matter what the configuration. The deck still executes its beatdown strategy well enough to win games on its own. But clearly the Griselbrand (and Spy) strategy are powerful enough to win it all, and they fill a somewhat similar role.

While some say Spy leaves you vulnerable to Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, I think that's a red herring. What situations is your opponent holding Extraction for your Dread Return where you're not already filling your graveyard with other stuff, or where you don't have Cabal Therapy for it? Wouldn't your opponent have used it already on whatever dredger or Bridge from Below that you dropped first? It seems like a stretch, but it's worth a think. At the very least, if you're scared of such a thing, you might just side out the Spies and a Dread Return for a relevant matchup card from your sidepile.

So perhaps the difference isn't so much in what Griselbrand and Spy do on their own, but the configurations they allow to run around them. With Griselbrand you'll likely have Dryad Arbor and something else, perhaps Contagion and Sickening Shoal. With Spy you're probably a bit more open and you can try Probe, Annex Chancellor, Forge Chancellor, or something else (Unmask comes to mind). Then you go into your sidepile strategy, and while the standard bearer of this deck has obviously found great success with Reverent Silence, Nature's Claim and Forest, it isn't my personal preference. I feel like I foul up the deck up by siding in a marquee of cards, when I can devote the sidepile to other weak spots, like combos or Reanimator or Show and Tell. You could put things like Colossus, Faerie Macabre, or Contagion, or whatever in your board and you'd be in good standing. Again, personal preference.

I look at the Spy version of the deck as a Spy strategy in a Dredge deck. That is, instead of playing Lotus Petal and Summoner's Pact and running blind against discard and blue spells, you slow down and employ the Dredge beatdown strategy as well. It's in the same vein but a comparable sort of variation, where you don't worry about blue cards when you beatdown and combo through the finish against other stuff.

@slave-: A turn one win is terrific, but ultimately unnecessary in this format. With Street Wraith and Probe in the deck, the turn two kill is not out of the question and turn three while disrupting is nearly the "standard" here with all the dredging we'll do. If you're really anxious about getting to three guys, you might try Forge Chancellor for Annex Chancellor or Probe to fight off removal, but I haven't felt it's necessary where I play. Finally, I wouldn't play the deck without 16 dredgers; there are enough situations that come up where I have 0 or 1 dredgers, and the deck just poops out when it doesn't dredge the draw step.

[slave]

Yeah, who woulda thought eh, SquirtMcGurt? :tongue:
I love Dryad Arbor too, I love the way it can't be countered etc., been singin it's praises for a while too.

I'd like to try and see how far we might be able to push the Fearless approach, and maybe Spy could be part of that too?


While some say Spy leaves you vulnerable to Surgical Extraction/Extirpate....
If we doctor up Spy, having a single turn more to smash them with Ichorids, Shadows, remaining Narc's and shitload of zombies, should hopefully be enough, even if they do extract Flayer or Troll (which is likely)
BTW, I've been preferring Worldspine Wurm in testing. Having it in hand is great agianst SnT.
If Show+Smell shows up an Emrakul, and if we then end up getting everything annihilated, we can DoctoR up our next turn. Ha!

I look at the Spy version of the deck as a Spy strategy in a Dredge deck. That is, instead of playing Lotus Petal and Summoner's Pact and running blind against discard and blue spells, you slow down and employ the Dredge beatdown strategy as well. It's in the same vein but a comparable sort of variation, where you don't worry about blue cards when you beatdown and combo through the finish against other stuff.
Most of the Spy decks out there have been combo-based, totally open to blue counter. Meh.
Ichorid says, "Win fast blueboy b4 I eat your face!".:cool:


@slave-: A turn one win is terrific, but ultimately unnecessary in this format. With Street Wraith and Probe in the deck, the turn two kill is not out of the question and turn three while disrupting is nearly the "standard" here with all the dredging we'll do. If you're really anxious about getting to three guys, you might try Forge Chancellor for Annex Chancellor or Probe to fight off removal, but I haven't felt it's necessary where I play. Finally, I wouldn't play the deck without 16 dredgers; there are enough situations that come up where I have 0 or 1 dredgers, and the deck just poops out when it doesn't dredge the draw step.

Anything less than 15 to 16 dredgers is a deal breaker for me, as is dropping the numbers of Ichorids or Shadows. Dropping any of them would mean our beatdown win-con is at risk.
If the Manaless Dredge-Spy deck is gonna be a thing, it has to be as consistent as regular-manaless normally is, and Arbor is part of that, as is the high (black) creature count for Ichy & Shadsy.
Because we're not running Arbor, fearless and fast seems to only way to go, and Unmask sounds a good option here too (side) to deal with Side-options like Rip, Graf etc.

Whilst I'm not aimin for a turn 1 win with this deck, I would like to try and make the deck less likely to auto-scoop as much as I can.
Whilst I don't disagree with the Spy-bashing going on in the large part, I wanna see how far we can push this version of the deck, seeing how traditional hate like Leyline of the Void doesn't seem to be super-popular anymore.

[SquirtMcGirt]

Have you guys tried running a gristlebrand spy split?

[slave]

Have you guys tried running a gristlebrand spy split?

No I haven't, how about you RT?

If I was gonna run Grisel, I'd want Dryad arbor in there too. Just opens up the possibilty of combatting hate.
Spy warps the deck into more of a go-stupid b4 hate shuts you down type proposition, which has actually been a lot of fun testing so far.
...kinda reminds of a fragile Storm deck approach like PactSI, which goes big quick, or dies trying.

[SquirtMcGirt]

No I haven't, how about you RT?

If I was gonna run Grisel, I'd want Dryad arbor in there too. Just opens up the possibilty of combatting hate.
Spy warps the deck into more of a go-stupid b4 hate shuts you down type proposition, which has actually been a lot of fun testing so far.
...kinda reminds of a fragile Storm deck approach like PactSI, which goes big quick, or dies trying.

Well i was just thinking if you ran like 3 of each or something like that it would give you an option to win either way. Just a thought. Trying to help u guys out. What is the list your actually running currently? I sgould be playing with my friends here shortly I'll play it and give you guys notes and such.

[RThomas-]

No I haven't, how about you RT?

If I was gonna run Grisel, I'd want Dryad arbor in there too. Just opens up the possibilty of combatting hate.
Spy warps the deck into more of a go-stupid b4 hate shuts you down type proposition, which has actually been a lot of fun testing so far.
...kinda reminds of a fragile Storm deck approach like PactSI, which goes big quick, or dies trying.


Well i was just thinking if you ran like 3 of each or something like that it would give you an option to win either way. Just a thought. Trying to help u guys out. What is the list your actually running currently? I sgould be playing with my friends here shortly I'll play it and give you guys notes and such.

I have not included both at the same time. They both seem to have the same role, but perhaps Griselbrand is stronger if you're expecting to play against Show and Tell. On the other hand, if you expect to play against Show and Tell, you might put a Colossus or Wurm in the maindeck and drop Spy to win the next turn, if that parlay works out for you. This seems to be a likeable option if you're playing against something like Show and Tell/Sneak Attack, or perhaps Twelveposts, which this deck seems very bad against... but then again, it doesn't really help if they drop Primeval Titan either. So I suppose that approach doesn't get us very far.

I think that you really don't need an abundance of Dread Return targets; aside from whatever combo creature you include, you also have Flayer of the Hatebound or a big Grave-Troll. So I pick one or the other.

Here's what I'm screwing around with:

16 dredges
4 Ichorid
4 NShadow
4 Phantasmag
4 SWraith
4 Therapy
4 DReturn
4 Narco
4 Probe
4 Bridge
4 Annex Chancellor
3 Spies
1 Flayer

I try some combination of sidepile cards that includes Unmask, Mindbreak Trap, Faerie Macabre, Colossus, Contagion/Shoal, Leylines... you get the idea.

I suppose an interesting answer to some troubling decks like Tin Fins, Twelvepost, Lands, Enchantress, Show and Tell/Griselbrand to some extent, if we're thinking outside the box, might be Leyline of Punishment. It gets after Glacial Chasm, Griselbrand, Solitary Confinement, and some other cards. Of course, it doesn't really have anything to do with your strategy, so you might want to look another direction. But some of those are bad matchups for us and they're being played more and more, so it's worth a look.

[slave]

What is the list your actually running currently? I sgould be playing with my friends here shortly I'll play it and give you guys notes and such.

Appreciate it. :wink: More help the better!

I'm testing two versions right now.
One the same as RTs' list except swap the C-Annex for LED's. I like it so far as LED gives it the option to go stupid on turn 1, and allows a mulligan.
I also have Worldspine Wurm in the side for when decks give me a reason to need another turn post DR, or I'm gonna expect SnT.

The other one, is one I'm testing - still not sure about yet.
Basically the same list but has Chancellor of the Forge in there, currently trying it by dropping 2 Shadow & 2 Shells.
I'm testing using different cards to cut, still working on it, so don't judge me or anything!
I'm still not sure I like it, as Forges' little goblin is gonna be open to removal, however, it is defence against Lackey etc.
If any of you find good results with a certain config please post your thoughts.:smile:

I tested with Baubles, and whilst the accleration is good, the deck is just so tight as it is.....


I think that you really don't need an abundance of Dread Return targets; aside from whatever combo creature you include, you also have Flayer of the Hatebound or a big Grave-Troll.

...... Glacial Chasm, Griselbrand, Solitary Confinement, and some other cards.

No we don't - you're right. But we do need an answer to one of these "You can combo, but you can't win" perm's, that Flayer isn't up to burning out.
I'm gonna try fit in a single Angel of Despair in the side for this exact problem.

Lastly, with Spy we can't run Arbor - but we can run Elvish Spirit Guide potentially.
I don't think this is an option. I mean, even if we have 8 Claim/Rev's in the board, the chances of getting ESS & one of those in our 7? :eyebrow:

[RThomas-]

No we don't - you're right. But we do need an answer to one of these "You can combo, but you can't win" perm's, that Flayer isn't up to burning out. I'm gonna try fit in a single Angel of Despair in the side for this exact problem.

A single Forge Chancellor helps you win through Leyline of Sanctity. Dread Return it after you flip your deck with Spy and you should have enough tokens to crash; if not, Therapy it back to graveyard and do it again. I'm not sure what else lets you combo but not win.


Tried this deck tonight at a small tournament (25-28) and came out 3-1, four rounds of swiss but no elimination rounds.

I used the list above, my sideboard:

3 Faerie Macabre
3 Unmask
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Punishment
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Terastodon

Round 1: Jund (Doug). Game 1 I had Annex Chancellor to start, but no dredges on first turn. He had turn 2 and 3 Thoughtseize and played a Dark Confidant, but nothing other than that. I Therapied away something before I put Spy into play on the fifth or so turn.
Game 2 there was Annex Chancellor again to start, but he lead with land Tormod's Crypt. I discarded a Thug to dredge slowly, and he blew Crypt after two turns right after Surgical Extraction on Bridge from Below. Since my hand was full I discarded Grave-Troll immediately and started to dredge again. When I he was around 6-8 life he played Engineered Plague on Illusions, for Narcomoeba, but I had two Nether Shadows and two Ichorids come into the graveyard and I beat to zero life the next turn.

Round 2: UWr control (TheInfamousBearAssassin). Game 1 I had Nether Shadows and Ichorids coming into play each turn, but the Ichorids were hit with Swords. I dredged a lot to try and find three creatures through which I could reanimate something, but Swords and Snapcaster Mage kept me at bay. I went too deep into the deck and punted away the game.
Game 2 I was hit with Surgical Extraction four times because of Snap Mage. Bridge from Below, Grave-Troll, Ichorid, and I gave up when Nether Shadow was hit. Jack was on top of the game hitting creatures with Swords in my upkeep instead of allowing me to use them main phase.

Round 3: BW Stoneforge and tricks (Konstantin). Game 1 I reanimated Spy on turn 2 with Therapy protection and also had Annex Chancellor to slow him down.
Game 2 I cycled three Street Wraith on his second endstep and he scooped with five creatures on my board.

Round 4: Merfolks (Chris). Game 1 was reanimate Spy on the second turn again with Probe clearing the way. Game 2 I punted: there were two Lord of Atlantis and Cursecatcher on his side and Narcomoeba, two Ichorid, two zombies on my side. I played Dread Return at six or so life for no good reason and he Forced it. I still had Narcomoeba and a zombie untapped, and he attacked into them. Next turn I brought back a Shadow and two Ichorids, attacked, and reanimated an Annex Chancellor with two untapped zombies. He didn't draw Relic of Progenitus at all and gave up the next turn.

Some things I noticed:

-My opponents except for Jack weren't very familiar with how the deck functions, even outside of Spy tricks. You need to remove my guys before main phase rolls around. Also, opponents kept putting me on the draw. Knock that off.

-It seems like people Extracted the wrong things. Bridge from Below was the first to go in the Jund game I won, but it didn't matter much because there are still twelve free creatures in the deck. I felt like Extracting the dredgers would have set me back much more. Take advantage of people not knowing what to do against this deck; everyone I played against said they hadn't ever seriously tested against Ichorid.

-Make sure you know what you're doing; there's a lot to juggle between triggers in phases, combat math, planning ahead for future opponent draws, playing Therapy properly, other things. Don't punt like I did and give your opponent a free pass when they don't realize what's going on.

-I didn't use Leyline or Terastodon at all so I don't know how they're doing. Unmask was a good card for me, I wanted it boarded in in every matchup. I really appreciated Annex Chancellor, I enjoyed it every time it showed up and it didn't mess with me when it didn't.

That's all, will play again Sunday.

[slave]

A single Forge Chancellor helps you win through Leyline of Sanctity. Dread Return it after you flip your deck with Spy and you should have enough tokens to crash; if not, Therapy it back to graveyard and do it again. I'm not sure what else lets you combo but not win.

My opponents except for Jack weren't very familiar with how the deck functions, even outside of Spy tricks. You need to remove my guys before main phase rolls around. Also, opponents kept putting me on the draw. Knock that off.

Unmask was a good card for me, I wanted it boarded in in every matchup. I really appreciated Annex Chancellor, I enjoyed it every time it showed up and it didn't mess with me when it didn't.

Well done! So despite some hate you still didn't cop a Leyline of the Void of a Rest in Peace type lock? Encouraging.:smile:
A Snap-Swords combo? That sucks, but oh well, not much you can do about that besides extraction.
On that, since we are playing with Spy - Therapy/Unmask combined with Surgical Extraction could help us lock-out graveyhate.
....seems a waste of sideboard space. Wha'chu reckon?
RE: Extracting the wrong things, I get that too. The smart ones extract Troll, Therapy and Dr., but extraction doesn't really destroy us consistently anyway.

I see what you're saying about Forge. But I'm not liking it.
Stuff like Glacial Chasm are the things we need to answer, as no matter how much we attack or burn it won't matter.
I know it's not common, but I play it in a few of my combo decks to buy time against dumb aggro.
My version packing 4 Forge has been problematic. I don't think it's possible to fit enough accleration etc.
I gave it about 3 hours of testing, trying different cards out for the forge. Not very good no matter what I did.

Making millions of tokens wth Forge - is it needed? With Last-Ditch Effort? Ha ha, only joking...the flavour text makes my point I think!:laugh:
Seriously though, after Spy, we should have a load of creatures and zombies ready to attack next turn anyway provided we have a 1-more-turn card in the deck. The reason I'm trying out LED is to try get Spy into play earlier.
Post combo, I would assume most of the time a single Angel would be enough to kill whatever obstruction they have, and resume FLayer/beatdown kill. And of course being black is good.

[NecroYawgmoth]

BTW, I've been preferring Worldspine Wurm in testing. Having it in hand is great agianst SnT.
If Show+Smell shows up an Emrakul, and if we then end up getting everything annihilated, we can DoctoR up our next turn. Ha!


I think, I still want Blightsteel Colossus here. If they S&T Emrakul, and we have Blightsteel, we force them to block, otherwise they die. A 4/4 Annihilator 6 shouldn't be that problematic for Manaless. =P

[RThomas-]

I think, I still want Blightsteel Colossus here. If they S&T Emrakul, and we have Blightsteel, we force them to block, otherwise they die. A 4/4 Annihilator 6 shouldn't be that problematic for Manaless. =P

It really isn't. Like Progenitus, Emrakul still gives us an extra turn to return our Nether Shadows and Ichorids, so we still have some play against Show and Tell. And of course if they block the Blightsteel, we've got an excellent clock to give Manaless a run, like you pointed out. I just didn't have it for that tournament I played in.

Clearly, we're just grasping at straws when we're considering sidepile cards. The point of the build (which apparently we've co-opted the thread with) is to reanimate Spy and make it go. I'm sure we could side in to Show and Tell killers by putting in three or four Angel of Despairs or something like that. But if we're launching into an unknown meta, that seems silly.

I'm looking at the deck as a Spy deck that has a Dredge beatdown alternate win. But the beatdown win is good enough to make up for the difference that the All Spells deck has in speed. We're playing this build for Annex Chancellor to get an extra turn and for Probe/Therapy, another draw and disrupt effect. Obviously we lose to Void Leyline and Rest in Peace, but really we should beat all of the other decks before we run into stuff that has these cards, perhaps in elimination rounds.

Good stuff, keep it coming.

[Bobmans]

I think, I still want Blightsteel Colossus here. If they S&T Emrakul, and we have Blightsteel, we force them to block, otherwise they die. A 4/4 Annihilator 6 shouldn't be that problematic for Manaless. =P

Sower of Temptation seems cute to.

Aside from this, as i am not to familiar with this deck, what's the strategy for removing Leyline of the Void when dropped in turn 0? Edit: specificly with the balustrade spy version.

[RThomas-]

Sower of Temptation seems cute to.

Aside from this, as i am not to familiar with this deck, what's the strategy for removing Leyline of the Void when dropped in turn 0? Edit: specificly with the balustrade spy version.

With Balustrade Spy, you don't. The Dryad Arbor version plays Nature's Claim and Reverent Silence.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Sower of Temptation seems cute to.

Aside from this, as i am not to familiar with this deck, what's the strategy for removing Leyline of the Void when dropped in turn 0? Edit: specificly with the balustrade spy version.

Sower isn't that good, because the card should have the "reshuffle" trigger, for that rare situations, where we can't kill directly when DRing Balustrade Spy. I just pointed out, that Blightsteel is better against S&T than Worldspine.

Leyline & RiP: Just ignore them. You go fearless against these cards. If they have them, you lose.

There is the possibility that we make a board like:

1-2 Forest
2 Fetch
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Reverent Silence
3-4 Natures Claim

Against specific hate like Leyline, we board out Balustrades, Blightsteel, and some other stuff. Problem would be, that we are very slow without DR-targets, so maybe cut 1 Forest and 2 Claims, and just play DR Targets here. :cool: =D

[Michael Keller]

I think it would be wise to think about running Faerie Macabre again in the main to combat the growing popularity of Tin Fins. It already has a wide application across the format, but it might be decent to consider.

[RThomas-]

I think it would be wise to think about running Faerie Macabre again in the main to combat the growing popularity of Tin Fins. It already has a wide application across the format, but it might be decent to consider.

At the risk of monopolizing the thread, I'll bite. Do you see Contagion/Shoal as the weakest part of the deck, worthy of sacrificing some measure of protection against Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze for the utility of Faerie Macabre (given a clear image of what to expect in your meta), or some other component? For all of its usefulness, Deathrite Shaman is still quite slow and surely something that we don't mind making our opponent slow down with.

[Michael Keller]

At the risk of monopolizing the thread, I'll bite. Do you see Contagion/Shoal as the weakest part of the deck, worthy of sacrificing some measure of protection against Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze for the utility of Faerie Macabre (given a clear image of what to expect in your meta), or some other component? For all of its usefulness, Deathrite Shaman is still quite slow and surely something that we don't mind making our opponent slow down with.

Well, with combo really all over the place right now and cards like Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian shoring up issues with Deathrite Shaman, Faerie Macabre can be really useful against other graveyard-based decks, with the obvious catalyst being Tin Fins.

It's more of a meta call than anything else at this point.

[slave]

So I took my LED-Spy deck along last night, and had a bash.
I've not played LED-dredge at a game-night before, only ever online, so I was a bit anxious how it would go against blue.
It did surprisingly well!, especially considering a few of the dudes there know which deck I usually play. LOL
It was a bit of a poor turn out, but I got in 4 matches, won 3. Just a bit of fun, casual matches.

The one I lost was to Elves-combo, who just raced me to plop down so many elves I couldn't do anything about it in both games. Man what a boring game when you sit and wait for 10-15 minutes as your opponent does an infini-combo of slow death.... yawn.
Of the matches I won, two of them were against blue control (one was miracles i think, and the other a faerie-counter heavy thing) which surprised me big time, as they usually deny me playing any DR's at all. Luckily I drew LED in game 1 of both blue matches and ended up comboing out a Spy on turn 2 or 3 both times, after Therapy got a taste for blue counter.
Both matches were grinded out in the 2nd and 3rd games and for some reason they kept letting me play LED. Huh? But I thought LED was a "you counter this or else" kinda card? I'd like to know what all your thoughts are on this....
My other match was against an aggro white weenie deck packing permission effects. What a joke against manaless....

So;
Thoughts on LED in a Spy deck = great. If they counter it, you've only lost a turn, and you've now learned what strategy they're on.
I'm still not conviced it's absolutely necessary in the deck, but I'm really enjoying it.

My current list is;
4 Thug, Troll, Imp, Therapy, Doctor, LED, Probe, Narc, Phants, Bridge, Wraith
3 Spy, Shell, Shadow, Ichorid, Annex
1 Flayer, 1 Worldspine Wurm
I'm still playing around with numbers, still not quite happy with it yet.
My side comprised of Unmask, Mindbreak Trap, an Angel of Despair, Kederekt Leviathan, the remianing Shell, Shadow, Ichorid & Annex.
The reason why I kept all the singles, was so I could revert to the grind plan if LED was getting countered everytime it hit play.


Blightsteel is better against S&T than Worldspine.

There is the possibility that we make a board like:
1-2 Forest
2 Fetch
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Reverent Silence
3-4 Natures Claim
Against specific hate like Leyline, we board out Balustrades, Blightsteel, and some other stuff. Problem would be, that we are very slow without DRs, so maybe cut 1 Forest and 2 Claims, and just play DR Targets here. :cool: =D

RE: Spine vs Blight.
I'll give Blightsteel a go. My whole reason to use Wurm was for dread return. I tested a proxy Blighty, just don't own one. I found that whilst Wurm is great for tokens, you still have to get through the counter.
So what other decks have bilateral plop into play besides Show & Hypergenesis that Blighty could help with?

[RThomas-]

I enjoy writing, so I wrote a report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25716-A-new-player-in-SCG-Washington-Manaless-Dredge) about my experiences with this deck in the Tournament Reports forum. I played this weekend at SCG Washington, DC, and I went 6-3.

[slave]

Well done RT, nice report.

Very glad to hear you dodged a lot of gravehate - maybe Dredge isn't dead afterall? :laugh:
RE: Unmask.
Yeah I kinda found the same thing. I want to like it, but we can only really use it T2 and beyond. Given we're starting on the draw a lot of the time, we're open to Brainstorm, Enlightened Tutor and all the normal crap. On T1 we cop a timewalk on the draw, or a Time Stretch if we're on the play.

Kinda expected that some think Manaless is a poor deck choice, I've copped that a couple times too from the Angry Nerd Patrol.
I think some of this might be attributed to Manaless being a fairly budget/entry-level deck, so you get a lot of newbies playing it, taking really long turns etc.
So what, right? I hope the irony isn't lost on those judgmental types should they lose....:laugh:

[NecroYawgmoth]

Hey RThomas, thanks for the report.

I have a question regarding to your maindeck.

Have you considered to run Chancellor of the Forge instead of Gitaxian Probe? It "speeds" the deck up, by providing one creature for DR [like Arbor in the "normal manaless-build"], and it helps in the first few Dredges to get 3 creatures over Shadow [unlike Probe]. It also serves as an alternate wincondition.

Happy dredging, everybody.

[RThomas-]

Hey RThomas, thanks for the report.

I have a question regarding to your maindeck.

Have you considered to run Chancellor of the Forge instead of Gitaxian Probe? It "speeds" the deck up, by providing one creature for DR [like Arbor in the "normal manaless-build"], and it helps in the first few Dredges to get 3 creatures over Shadow [unlike Probe]. It also serves as an alternate wincondition.

Happy dredging, everybody.

You're welcome, I enjoy writing about my experiences and wish more would do the same. You may read a bit about my initial consideration of Forge Chancellor on pages 57 and 58. I felt that I needed to pick two things out of three regarding Annex, Forge, and Probe. I chose Annex and Probe because I'm still a bit unfamiliar with exactly what people are holding (to help out with Therapy); Probe helped out when my opener did not contain a dredger (which happened a startling four times); and I felt that I had to weigh having one less creature to reanimate something against dredging extra on turn two. It's relevant that Forge Chancellor cannot be Duressed or Inquisitioned away, as an ancillary point. I felt that the Probe/Therapy combo and filling my graveyard more quickly, which incidentally also protects against Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze to an extent, was stronger than Forge Chancellor. I think that any combination of those three may be played, or perhaps there can be some sort of three-way split.

I found in practice that Forge Chancellor was marginally quicker than Probe to make three creatures, and only just. Perhaps making your disruption hit a little harder is best in this combo-filled metagame, or perhaps getting there faster is the correct answer. We'll have to check it out. I had Forge Chancellor in my sidepile as a one-of to win through Leyline of Sanctity. It also served a purpose against aggro decks.

[SquirtMcGirt]

Hey guys! I tried the list with spies and i gotta say, while it is cool and different, i am really preferring hollywoods list with maindeck chancellor of the annex. I just felt like it didnt have enough going on with no arbors and probe. I struggle to get to 3 creatures. I may just need to play it a bit more though ill do a full write up of my findings withyour lists after a few more playtesting sessions. I have settled on a side board for the "standard" list though. I have been having alot of luch with this.

2 verdant catacombs
1 beta forest lol (has to be beta)
2 noxious revival
2 reverant silence
2 natures claim
3 contagion
3 sickening shoal

Here is my reasoning: I dont feel like we need 4 reverant silence.yes the hate sucks, but the only hate that is really relavent too it is leyines and rest in peace. I dont have any rest in peace to worry about where I play. I feel like running less gives me a chance to still be reactive and hate, while dilluting my deck less and being consistant still. The contagion is fo elves. fuck elves. That deck can be so explosive and win out of nowhere. killing a couple early gus coupled with chancellor wins that easy enough though. The sickening shoal is fo large troublesome creatures. I have a reanimator style deck that I play against and elesh norn and platinum empyrion rape my face. Shoal is a good answer to those cards. with the revivals I can run 4 of each artifact/enchantment hate technically, plus ruin tricks for my opponent with brainstorm and other things, and I can run up to five of each of the creature kill spells. if you dont or havent played with noxious revival I recommend you try it. I have also been playing against alot of belcher/tes. I was running unmask for these matchups, but I really never liked it. It was always relevant too late. with a decent hand and chancellor it seems to be enough to slow them down to cast a couple therapies. from there its straight winning. honestly reanimator and elves have been giving me the most trouble, so I have adjusted my sb to deal with those decks. Thoughts? What do you guys think?

[RThomas-]

I rarely found the need to play Contagion/Shoal post-board unless I was facing Goblin Lackey or Scavenging Ooze. There just aren't a lot of creatures that pressed me except for those. I would take the above suggestion of Faerie Macabre into serious consideration: while Reanimator might not see much play anymore, Tin Fins and ANT certainly do, and Faerie Macabre won me games in both of those matches in the report above.

Also, if you'd like to play Reverent Silence package in the sidepile, there really needs to be four, or perhaps three. Even though your points are taken into consideration, I'm not sure what the parlay is between gaining one of your seven land and one of your two Silences. It must be very low. Since the deck loses if an enchantment hits play without an answer, it's best to bite the bullet and put four in your sidepile. I suppose all of this is dependent on your specific metagame but I feel four is quite applicable across the board.

[MrSoze]

I played RT's list of Manaless Dredge to 19th place at SCG: KC, 6-2 record.

Round 1: The Mirror. Yes, I'm serious. Nice guy. He wins the die roll and chooses to draw. I drop my head and smile. Show him Chancellor of the Annex before G1, stop his first Therapy. He's playing a non-combo version. We both discard Phantasmagorian on T1, I have Grave-Troll, he doesn't. I combo him on T3. We both side 4 Macabres. G2, I once again draw Grave-Troll, he doesn't. Very anti-climactic games. 1-0

Round 2: Solidarity. Game 1, he preordains on T1 and T2. I DDD, with a Street Wraith in hand. Rip his hand apart with Cabal Therapies, combo him. G2, he attempts to combo on T3, misses. I don't. Played through Surgical on Grave-Troll this game. 2-0 (Note: My opponent chose to play first game 2)

Round 3: Pox. Yep. Game 1, I show him Chancellor, he, like most of my opponents, has to read it. Stop his first spell, Inquisition. Discard Phantasmagorian, he doesn't play anything other than an Urborg and a Mishra's Factory before I combo him. I therapy to try to get an idea of what I'm up against. G2, not sure what's coming in, Extirpate or Surgical or Leyline. I take a chance and don't side. For reference, my board was 4 Macabres and an anti-hate package of 3 Verdant Catacombs, 3 Forest, 1 Dryad Arbor (Forgot my Arbors at home), 2 Nature's Claim, 2 Reverent Silence. He mulls to 6, slams T0 Leyline and I scoop. I board in the anti-hate. Have the Verdant in hand G3, never draw one of my 4 pieces of anti-hate. He slams T0 Leyline again, I lose to Urborg into Factory. The turn before I die, he completely locks me out with Nether Void. He only had 3 Leylines in his board. Bad luck, oh well. 2-1. (Note: once again, my opponent chose to play first game 2)

Round 4: TES. He looks surprised when I go on the draw, but seems okay with it. He never finds a Tutor, I turn 3 combo him. Game 2, he mulls to 5, keeps, and I show him Chancellor before the game starts, he sighs. He kept a double Gitaxian Probe, no land hand at 5. His first probe gets countered, I rip apart the rest of his hand with Therapies and combo him easily. He drew terribly this match. 3-1. (Note: once again, my opponent chose to play first game 2)

Round 5: Merfolk. Oh, this match. So, I win game 1, as expected. He seems to not know how to play against Dredge at all. I combo with him holding two irrelevant cards relatively easily. G2, I show him Chancellor. He plays T2 Relic, and I punt. I decide to take that one turn and go for it all, as I have 2 Street Wraith in my hand. This is stupid, as I may have to use them later to recover. Instead, I go all-in and the first Relic goes boom. He has no real action, but he does have a 2nd Relic, which spells my doom when he finally starts drawing Lords. Of note, he sided in Pithing Needle naming Bridge from Below. Poor guy. G3, he leads with T1 Relic again, which I play through. I have 26 cards left in my library when the crucial turn comes against him - I have Grave-Troll in yard, Street Wraith in hand, and 2 Bridges in the deck. I need one to win the game, I miss on all 12 cards and die. Later, I found out that he had tapped out to attack me with a dismember in hand and 2 creatures + mutavault on board that turn, so he punted and I couldn't return it. Nice guy, but I went off at his poor play, apologized later. Had to unsteam myself off tilt. 3-2 (Note: My opponent finally chose to draw first game 2)

Round 6: 12post. Guy who finished 2nd in the Standard open. Game 1 is a war. He gains a bunch of life off of Glimmerpost, and Crop Rotations Bojuka Bog, but I slow-dredged against him to guard against it. Turn before he dies to Zombies, he casts Glacial Chasm. He bricks 5 draw steps in a row. I finally hit Spy the turn after he lets Chasm go, I have to think. I'm basically dead to Emrakul at any point here, as I have lost life to both Wraith and Probe to stay in the game. Shrug, go for it. Last card he has in hand is a Repeal for the Flayer in response to the 2nd Dread Return, with Top on board. He spins it, draws Preordain. I still dead to either Emrakul or Eye of Ugin at this point. He misses on the Preordain, draws Ponder blind. Ponders, shuffles, misses. He then punts, probably out frustration (not that I blame him at this point), and activates Top to look at top 3, then in response activates to draw a card and cracks a fetch. He should have done it the other way around. He misses. The game took 30 minutes, very tense. Game 2, he gets an early Prime Titan. I dredge, hit spy, but need a Dread Return. I never get the chance - Prime Time finds Eye of Ugin, finds Emrakul, the Spaghetti Monster kills me. G3, Cabal Therapy rips him up, I combo him quickly. 4-2 (Note: My opponent chose to draw first game 2)

Round 7: Jund. Oh, Sweet Jesus, yes. I show him Chancellor before G1, he reads it and sighs. He runs a thoughtseize into it, to resolve T2 Deathrite. I discard Phantasmagorian, he tries to remove it, I respond. Combo him. G2, he has basically no board for me besides Surgicals, and those do nothing, really. Easy combo G2 with protection. 5-2. (Note: My opponent chose to play first game 2)

Round 8: Jund. I almost giggle, really. He leads with Bloodstained Mire, Deathrite. I discard Troll, he takes the bait and tries to remove it. I respond with Street Wraith, he slumps. Combo him T3 through the Shaman. He boards 3 cards. Mulls. Keeps his hand, I'm fine. Show him Chancellor. Easily combo him with minimal resistance. When I Therapy him to clear the way for the Spy, his hand is Bolt, Hymn x2, and Thoughtseize x2. Sickening. 6-2. (Note: My opponent chose to play first game 2)

6-2 is good for 19th place and $100. The deck piloted smooth as silk, despite the annoyance of always seemingly having at least 2 Narcos in my hand. Most opponents seemed helpless against it, as targeted gravehate did very little to me, and I sided out the combo against potential RiP or Leylines most of the time. Not totally sure it was worth it, but I easily could have won both matches I lost. Would play the deck again, 100%. 5 out of my 8 opponents, after losing G1, still chose to play first G2. I won every game 1.

[RThomas-]

I played RT's list of Manaless Dredge to 19th place at SCG: KC, 6-2 record.

Hey dude,

I'm glad you decided to give the list a go! It's surely a glass cannon against prepared opponents (to be sure, at least the one I've prepared), but those opponents number in the single digits, and it looks like you ran the gauntlet and performed well, kudos to you!!!

Against 12Post, you've got a nigh-unwinnable match unless your vs. punts, which he did, and that's a function of the deck, so more kudos to you. Even with your whole graveyard revealed, it's easy to punt against this deck if you don't know what you're doing. Well done.

As an aside, picking the play against you is a huge mistake; it's basically a Time Walk for you. I did it recently in a small tournament as Spiral Tide; I didn't even get close. Your opponents have to be on their game or its curtains for them since Therapy rips them apart! I emphasize this in my reports but opponents just don't pick up on it. Well done!

[MrSoze]

Hey dude,

I'm glad you decided to give the list a go! It's surely a glass cannon against prepared opponents (to be sure, at least the one I've prepared), but those opponents number in the single digits, and it looks like you ran the gauntlet and performed well, kudos to you!!!

Against 12Post, you've got a nigh-unwinnable match unless your vs. punts, which he did, and that's a function of the deck, so more kudos to you. Even with your whole graveyard revealed, it's easy to punt against this deck if you don't know what you're doing. Well done.

As an aside, picking the play against you is a huge mistake; it's basically a Time Walk for you. I did it recently in a small tournament as Spiral Tide; I didn't even get close. Your opponents have to be on their game or its curtains for them since Therapy rips them apart! I emphasize this in my reports but opponents just don't pick up on it. Well done!

What surprises me the most is how much people don't know how to play against Dredge, honestly. It's not really a secret deck or anything, but people punt all over the place. It's pretty amazing. I don't get to as many opens as I would like, but the last time I made the money was in KC, it was Legacy, and I was playing regular Dredge. I've won about 75-80% of my matches with Dredge at SCG:Opens, it takes Dredge winning before people put the tougher cards to beat in the board.

I would say the list is just fine, so long as people don't play the RiP/Leyline/Wheelofsunandmoon-type hate. Pinpoint stuff, like Surgical/Extirpate really does nothing assuming you know what you're doing, and playing through Crypt/Relic just takes practice. I will say that I probably wouldn't play this version without the Spy combo, just because it gives the ability to just win the game straight out, while keeping the Dredge options for winning on as well. It's a very tight list, so kudos to you, sir. I did like having the out against Leyline-type effects with the side, so I would probably keep it that way - there was no hate I couldn't play through otherwise.

As an aside, you haven't lived until you dread return Chancellor of the Annex against a Solidarity opponent who now realizes that you blanked their first High Tide, and they need to draw two to win.....except they're dead on the next swing. Truly fun stuff. Also played through a tabernacle at pendrell vale using Nether Shadow/Ichorid. The lines of attack the deck uses are extremely varied, and it really seems to frustrate people.

[slave]

Well done MrSoze.
a 6-2 is pretty good given how glass-cannon a Spy deck can be.

I took my Spy-variant along tonight, did pretty well - I'll post how I went in the morning - too tired right now!

[slave]

Okay, so last night I gave the Spy deck another go.
I know SPy isn't the optimal version of the deck, but I've been testing it a bit - running a simialr list as RThomas, except LED's are in there for more acceleration.
I have also been running a single Worldspine Wurm in the side, cos I still don't have a Blightsteel.

I don't tend to write anything down, I played;
Burn, Burn (again!), Reanimator, High Tide & Goblins.
Went 3-2.
Against all decks I owned game 1, except against Reanimator.

The Burn decks both had me perilously close to 3 life in game 2, so Spy here was very welcome compared to Grisel. I forgot how much I love Goblin Guide when I'm trying to find an answer to grave hate.:tongue:
Against Reanimator I got hands with very little action, and in game 1 & 2 they Griselbanned me on T2/3 and proceeded to stomp me out. Copped a Bojuka Bog in game2.
No G-demon in the yard to use the legend rule to my benefit. Boooo!

High Tide was a very tight match! Best match by far. Funny we have both played against a Hightide deck Mr Soze!
In game1, when I started dredging my opponent lets out a "bugger", giving me a dodgy look. I went stupid on T3 despite force.
Game 2 I got a slow hand, and by around turn 5 (i think) I've still had no Dread Return's appear, so I'm just proceeding to stomp face and therapy his biz. He has two cards in hand and life around 3 to 5 from memory. He then lands a 5th island, a High Tide and taps his Candlelabra of Tawnos...... and drops a Time Spiral!
Fuck me backwards! I forgot they run that card!
I had only a couple Shadows, so I just hoped I got another turn to finish it. He proceeded to go infinite-turn and went through half his deck, casting a second Time Spiral, going thorugh another 20 or so cards before he plonked down a monster Brain freeze doing the Spy-dance followed by Blue Sun's Zenith.
Game 3 he was bouncing my Icky's and I couldn't get to 3 creatures despite Doctor & Annex staring me in the face. Once again, I had his life pretty low from Icky-beats. Eventually he chained a long turn into a Cunning Wish, fetched a Brain Freeze and killed me with another BSZ.
Having never played against High Tide before I made a few bad plays, but oh well.... We had a good laugh - great fun.

The Goblin deck was a R/W variant running Thalia. I won game 1 quick, he smashed me in game 2 on the back of Krenko, RiP & Thalia. Game 3 was close, as I got a grip of hate in my 7 with land, answers and dredgers - won game 3 via Spy/Flayer. Thalia & Skirk Prospector suck balls!

Thoughts.
I didn't see a lot of hate relevant to stopping dredge dead, only one RiP all night, however I did see a couple Tormod's Crypt and a Bojuka Bog.
Chancellor of the Annex is great, but I didn't see it in my opening 7 once. Balls!
As far as Spy is concerned, LED is great - but it does require you drop some stuff to fit it in... still not sure it's actually necessary.
The Spy list feels just as consistent, only slightly faster, compared to the normal Hollywood list game1, however I've been finding it's trickier to get to 3 for the Doctor postboard.
That said - I do like this version of the deck, especially since it gets rid of the tedious dredge 7 bit and just lets me turn the library over, and my win-loss is about the same as normal Manaless.
But;
Spy isn't where I wanna be - I miss Dryad Arbor in the main horribly. Grisel would've given me a fighting chance (maybe :wink:) against reanimator.
Next time I play manaless, I'll be dropping Spy and going back to my bastardised "Hollywood" list.

[grip]

So ... im new here because on the german boards nobody is interested in the manaless version.
Just took hollywood's list to our weekly local.
Md were 4 Faerie of Macabre instead of removal. Everything else was pretty standard.

R1 vs SneaknTell
G1 i loose to a turn2 Emrakul. Not much to say - just some bad "draws"
G2 i win threw a Relic of Progenitus. He didnt expected Nature's Claim in manaless drege. lol.
G3 he only found Pyroclasm after a bunch of cantrips. With Therapy i saw 2 Sneak Attack,2 Grisel and 1 Emrakul. No problem since i kept ky own Grisel in hand for the case he would play Show and Tell.

2/1

R2 vs Spanish Inquisition
i already know what he plays so i tinkered a bit if i directly scoop 0/2 but ...
R1 he fizzles on 1 life in turn 3 or so. After that he geschrieben hast beaten by Shadows and Ichorids.
R2 i get belchered.
R3 another time he fizzles and did a missplay. I hit with Therapy his whole hand of Cabal Rituals and Infernal Tutor. After that it's quickly over.

yeah another 2/1

R3 UW Control
G1 is pretty much a bye. He really does nothing dangerous.
G2 i get beaten up by Geist of Saint Traft. I can handle his RiP. At one point i can play DR. He has lethal damage and i dont got bridges but he has another Tutor and Force + pitchcard ...
G3 he does not found any hate. I can rip his hand and a couple of zombies eat his brain.

and again 2/1

Last round is coming and im the only one who stands 3/0 at this moment.
I afford a draw and my opp accepts so i a m save in the first place. Afterwards it turns out that it a mistake because if i would have lost we would be save in the first two places and play about the first pick.
We play for fun and i got crushed by an artifact.deck with welder, painter, trinket mage, sdt etc.

So overall 3/0/1 and i take home a Dark Confidant ((by 10 players))

[Slag]

Hey everybody, I've got another report to add onto the heap, although I ran a slightly different list. Tonight at Atomic Empire's 15 man legacy tournament, I took first place with rektareloaded's maindeck from page 33 of this thread. The sole change to the main was that I ran one Balustrade Spy over one flayer because I...forgot to buy another flayer before the tournament started. My sideboard was like so:
3 Aethersnipe
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Unmask
4 Chancellor of the Annex

I was fairly pleased with the board, although I will be the first to tell you that I dodged a lot of the graveyard hate tonight. The Aethersnipes are for sneak and show. I never brought in the Faeries, but I wouldn't remove them from the board. Unmask and Chancellor came in often, and I got a lot of mileage out of them both. I tend to side out the Bloodghast/Salvage combo when sideboarding, but I do like having them both in the main, and Bloodghast won at least one game for me.

The tournament (plug: come out for the big legacy tournament tomorrow! It's a great environment, solid players with competitive decks, and what I estimate to be a bajillion judges in the player pool) was four rounds. I'll spare you the repetitive details of playing dredge, and try to hit the highlights.

Round one was against Sneak and show. Game one I took an Emrakul on the chin, but managed to Dread Return flayer and troll the following turn at one life. Game two I managed to stall for a few turns with two chancellors, and gathered several zombie tokens. I managed to return a chancellor and although my opponent was able to put into play a gristlebrand and draw seven, he couldn't crack a fetch at one life to finish me, so tokens took the game.

Round two was against a UWR delver deck. The first game I was able to race through his delver. For the second game, my opponent shrewdly elected to draw. His hand was good enough to roll with it, but I unmasked my own grave troll and dredged with a Gitaxian probe. I hit a couple of bloodghasts, and cabal therapied for his business cards. Chancellor also stalled him for a turn.

Round three was against UR delvernought. The first game was fairly standard, I believe returned a flayer. The second game, he was able to put me off my game plan by repeatedly stifling my Ichorids, and delver beat me down. Game three, he had tons of reach, but not the mana to play it, and I gathered several zombie tokens. I used Unmask to take a dreadnought that would have removed my bridges the next turn.

Round four was against UW miracles. The first game he was unable to find a Rest in Peace despite a number of draw spells. The second game, I had just about the only hand that will beat a deck with RIP: Phantasmagorian, Imp, Imp, Nether Shadow, Wraith, Wraith, and I believe an ichorid. My dredges coughed up two Narcomoebas, and I was able to Dread Return a Chancellor to stall off RIP for a turn. I had a number of zombies, but he couldn't get a terminus with his top.

I'll reiterate that I did get very lucky with respect to the amount of grave hate I faced; I didn't see any of the Deathrite decks, and I had effectively no answer to leyline or RIP. I will go on record as saying that I think both unmask and chancellor deserve serious consideration when building a sideboard. I know you all are largely sold on Chancellor, but unmask was able to hit both my own cards and my opponents'. So, come on down to Durham tomorrow(Saturday, 3/30), and bring all the grave-hate you want, because I'll have to miss the event.

[RThomas-]

Hey everybody, I've got another report to add onto the heap, although I ran a slightly different list.
3 Aethersnipe
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Unmask
4 Chancellor of the Annex

...

Well done. A couple points to make:

--Was there a reason to throw in Spy when you had Dakmor Salvage in the deck? My choice would be Griselbrand, since it does just about the same thing with Salvage or Arbor in the deck. I don't know if you didn't have them available, but I think it would be a stronger choice. Unless your thinking was to bin a bunch of cards, dredge Salvage the next turn, and recur your Bloodghasts. Then I understand but Griselbrand feels much stronger.

--You might also consider Angel of Despair or Kederekt Leviathan in the AEthersnipe spot for the Show and Tell game since their utility is a bit wider, but this may also be card availability.

--I'm glad you found some good use out of Unmask; perhaps I'm not playing it properly, but I never liked having it in the second and third games. It works best when you delay a turn with Annex Chancellor and it looks like you took advantage of that.

It looks like a pretty good time to try this deck out if you're not seeing much of Leyline and Rest in Peace; I've seen either of those cards exactly once in a couple months of tournament play. We've already established that Deathrite Shaman is not a huge problem for the deck, since it can surely blow right through it, so it's good to see the deck performing well.

[Slag]

Well done. A couple points to make:

--Was there a reason to throw in Spy when you had Dakmor Salvage in the deck? My choice would be Griselbrand, since it does just about the same thing with Salvage or Arbor in the deck. I don't know if you didn't have them available, but I think it would be a stronger choice. Unless your thinking was to bin a bunch of cards, dredge Salvage the next turn, and recur your Bloodghasts. Then I understand but Griselbrand feels much stronger.

--You might also consider Angel of Despair or Kederekt Leviathan in the AEthersnipe spot for the Show and Tell game since their utility is a bit wider, but this may also be card availability.

--I'm glad you found some good use out of Unmask; perhaps I'm not playing it properly, but I never liked having it in the second and third games. It works best when you delay a turn with Annex Chancellor and it looks like you took advantage of that.

It looks like a pretty good time to try this deck out if you're not seeing much of Leyline and Rest in Peace; I've seen either of those cards exactly once in a couple months of tournament play. We've already established that Deathrite Shaman is not a huge problem for the deck, since it can surely blow right through it, so it's good to see the deck performing well.

The story with spy was this: I only had one flayer, so I tossed in the spy while I was playtesting. I Dread Returned it a couple of times, but it rarely did anything significant. I came to the tournament fully intent on replacing it, but forgot. Flayer, Gristlebrand, Worldspine Wurm, even Dripping Dead would have been more useful. There was, indeed, conflict between salvage and the spy; I would rather have the ghasts in the main than spy.

Angel of Despair would be a better choice in the snipe slot. Kederekt Leviathan would be good against Staxx or Enchantress, I suppose, but I rarely see that around here. I think the ability to bounce one permanent and then attack with a bunch of tokens is preferable to a clean sweep at the moment.

Unmask and Chancellor are, as you surmise, BFFs, and I never boarded in Unmask without the Chancellor. If your opponent elects to draw, the duo pretty much mitigate any tempo loss, whether it be delaying your opponent or using unmask on yourself. Unmask was also good for clearing the way for a Dread Return against control/aggro control.

Several times during the tournament, my opponents (or passersby) remarked that their deck had significantly better game against traditional LED/looting dredge, and I believe it. Manaless is very consistent, and I think consistency can go a long way in the current environment. I will go ahead and advocate on the side of more dredgers, rather than fewer, however.

[slave]

It looks like a pretty good time to try this deck out if you're not seeing much of Leyline and Rest in Peace; I've seen either of those cards exactly once in a couple months of tournament play. We've already established that Deathrite Shaman is not a huge problem for the deck, since it can surely blow right through it, so it's good to see the deck performing well.

I'm finding the same thing - because DRS is good enough to slow down a fair amount of graveyard decks, a lot of people seem to be devoting their side to anything but dredge.
Despite Rest in Peace being around (I've seen it every 2nd time I go out), I'm finding this deck in a fair position to beat face right now.
The best thing I'm finding is the deck has a lot of interactions that opponents just don't even know about, and few sideboard cards can shut down.

RThomas;
RE: Balustrade Spy
I'm still toying with it... I just cast put the deck down. I do miss Arbor, but damn - those foil Spy's are purty lookin :cool: ..and cheap!
I have been runnin 2 Flayers (if someone Extracts my Trolls) = you can burn them out for 27 damage from only 2 Dr's.
Troll gets extracted a lot I find, for some reason people still use extraction in the side like it matters against us! :eyebrow:
Have you considered running a 2nd one for the alternate win-con in your Spy version?

That said, it would probably come at the expense of a Blightsteel Colossus-type singleton. I have mine in the side, as I've rarely needed it. Thing is, if you can DR up a Spy without them having anything relevant on the board, what can they do to stop you winning outside of immediately extracting Dr's? They should have already played that out before you cast spy I would think.
Do you guys n gals running Spy find Blighty needed much against control decks?

Also, regarding Show and Tell, Reanimator, Hypergensis matchups, I've tested a few cards.
After quite a few games, I favour Kederekt Leviathan & ANgel of Despair.
Terastodon and Aethersnipe both have major drawbacks.
Levy protects your bridges and potentially boosts your hand up to 7, Levy can't touch lands, this might be relelvant for some of you, but I find it rarely is.
Angel can kill anything and can also be exiled for Icky's, Contagion, Unmask etc., but most of the time you'll be killing an artifact or enchantment with it, so killing your bridges isn't always relevant.

[Michael Keller]

RE: Balustrade Spy
I'm still toying with it... I just cast put the deck down. I do miss Arbor, but damn - those foil Spy's are purty lookin :cool: ..and cheap!

You really shouldn't be predicating your decisions regarding the mechanics and productivity of the deck because a card looks good foiled-out, just saying.

[slave]

You really shouldn't be predicating your decisions regarding the mechanics and productivity of the deck because a card looks good foiled-out, just saying.

Hyuk.
I know the Arbor version is better, and still my favoured version - but Spy has been fun workin with, and so far against aggro it allows us to combo out below 7 life. I think that's worth a thought.

Whats your whole take on this Hollywood?

Edit;
My list with Spy is currently the *Hollywood List*
-4 Annex, + 4 LED
-4 Arbor, +4 Probe.

[grip]

Agree to Hollywood.
We should discuss the best cards to play. Even when Legacy is the "casual-type" Spy has its own deck already.

Played this weekend a frustrating 1/3. Loosing to paranoid ppl (4 Leylines, 4 Extirpates ) to Staxx (3sphere with a followed RiP) and to Ant.
Nothing much to discuss about. Vs the paranoid Deadguy-player i could have won if i had found some business in within 40 cards ... lol.

Aslong the Meta turns more into Combo im changing to Led-Dredge to keep up with the speed.

[slave]

Agree to Hollywood.
We should discuss the best cards to play. Even when Legacy is the "casual-type" Spy has its own deck already.

Tough draw against so much hate.

RE: Best cards - there's no question what this thread is for.
I don't think anyone is arguing that Spy is stronger than the current Manaless tried and true version.
But it does have a few pro's and con's worth thinking about.
Generally experience will teach how effective a given card will be, although testing can prove/disprove it given time and slight adjustments to a given list.

The pro's and con's of Spy have been beaten to death already, so lets look at odds using (hypergeometric distribution)
Chances of drawing an Arbor in your starting 7 is ~34%
More than one Arbor = 6%
More than or equal to 1 is ~40%
No Arbor ~60%.
Now I don't know about you guys, but the math doesn't always back me up. I could shuffle and deal 7, and I doubt I'd get an Arbor 34% of the times, but this kind of math doesn't really allow for poor shuffling or cards getting clumped together etc etc.

Now lets pretend we're post board.
We've sided in a pair of Verdant Catacombs and a Forest, 4 Claims and 4 Reverent Silence.
Chances of drawing a mana source in your first grip ~42%.
None = 39%
More than 1 = 18%.
And what about if we MULLIGAN looking for a green source?
None = 45%
1 green source ~40%
More than 1 = 14%.

Answers in Reverent Silence & Nature's Claim, assuming you have all 8 in from the side;
None = 34%
1 ~42%
More than one ~23%.
MULLIGAN for an answer?
None = 41%
1 ~ 41%
More than one ~17%.

Now lets pretend you've sided in some Mindbreak Traps And Annex for Storm, and are willing to mull to grab one.
Opening grip has one or more = 65%
MULL to 6, 1 or more = 59%
MULL to 5, 1 or more = 52%
MULL to 4 (:tough:), = 44%.

Okay, that out of way, what developments have actually happened lately that's new to the deck?
The core hasn't changed, and I doubt it will.
Of the fringe cards - Annex is an oldie but a goodie. Unmask, Mindbreak Trap are cards well known about.
Another version of the deck uses Bloodghast & Dakmor Salvage.
The newest additions are Mr Grisel and Flayer as far as I can tell.

But since those newer Dr. targets have been added, there's not exactly been an avalanche of new thoughts or viable new cards for the deck.
This is why I've been testing Spy a bit, tryin to get the best out of it, and developing a side is a big part of that.

[MrSoze]

I think that the only question before us is whether or not the ability to just kill the opponent outright is worth the stretch in consistency.

Against both Storm and High tide, the fact that I didn't need to use the attack step to win definitely gave me, in my opinion, a stronger game. No reanimating Griselbrand and having to win in the attack step, no dropping dryad arbors, etc.

Now, of course, most of the time in my one draw step, if I drew Spy, I would rather have had Arbor, so there's the dilemma.

Speaking strictly for myself, I was totally fine with the Spy version - since we have an equal chance of scooping to Leyline/RiP, I would rather board the removal package and keep the maindeck combo focused - the varied lines of attack against the various archetypes was what won me the game, in my opinion. But I'd like to hear what Hollywood has to say, since he's put in a ton of work on the archetype.

[slave]

I think that the only question before us is whether or not the ability to just kill the opponent outright is worth the stretch in consistency.

Against both Storm and High tide, the fact that I didn't need to use the attack step to win definitely gave me, in my opinion, a stronger game. No reanimating Griselbrand and having to win in the attack step, no dropping dryad arbors, etc.

Now, of course, most of the time in my one draw step, if I drew Spy, I would rather have had Arbor, so there's the dilemma.

Speaking strictly for myself, I was totally fine with the Spy version - since we have an equal chance of scooping to Leyline/RiP, I would rather board the removal package and keep the maindeck combo focused - the varied lines of attack against the various archetypes was what won me the game, in my opinion. But I'd like to hear what Hollywood has to say, since he's put in a ton of work on the archetype.

Spy may be better situationally, than Griselbrand, due to it being able to go off below 7 life.
This is very relevant for me against many decks packing hate post board, like Burn packing extraction for example. Slowing us up just enough can be enough.

The REAL question is not really Grisel VS Spy, it's whether you favour Dryad Arbor in the main, and what to do post board with or without Spy.
And additonal to this, whether you favour having sideboard space for Mindbreak Trap, Unmask or anything else.

Personally, I used to drop a lot of acceleration from a Grisel list to focus on the grind plan with Dread Return still in there.
But a Spy deck is different.
I'm favouring a completely green side full of Arbor, Land, Claim & Reverent, and siding it in for Dread Returns, Flayer, Spy, Annex (maybe), Blightsteel etc. to focus on grinding. Arbor is still relelvant here, with Therapies and Bridges of course.
Most postboard games for me very rarely (if ever) have me resolving dread return due to gravehate or counter, so for me - having a grind plan WITH all the acceleration in the deck seems the way to go with Spy. Having the acceleration in there should help too.
I'm still testing it.... See what you think.:wink:

[rektareloaded]

after taking a month break in legacy ...
man i need to read more than 5 pages on this thread lol

it seems like storm/TES/Ant is winning lately in some scg opens.. jund is still there ... Elves is more deadly now with deathrite, Natural order + behemoth....
i might have to try 4 chancellor of the annex in mainboard

i agree to the previous post that running 16 less dredgers is a suicide, on the last big tournament i played i mulled 3 games in a row not getting a single dredger in my opening hand, :frown: dropped! :laugh:

@RThomas
not bad on your recent tournament in scg considering its been 7 years since you last played on a big event

@slave
is spy more consistent vs griselbro?

[slave]

i agree to the previous post that running 16 less dredgers is a suicide, on the last big tournament i played i mulled 3 games in a row not getting a single dredger in my opening hand, :frown: dropped! :laugh:

@slave
is spy more consistent vs griselbro?

Agreed.
Here's the numbers (which are somewhere in the bowels of this thread too)
12 dredgers is an ~81% chance of getting one or more in your first grip.
15 = 88%
16 = 90%
If you're considering more, like say Dakmor Salvage, Greater Mossdog for example;
20 dredgers = 95%

As to Spys' consistency?
We're gonna need a few more people testing in different meta's to really know. Any volunteers? :wink:

I assume by "vs Griselbro", you mean not against other G-man decks, like SnT, Hypergenesis, Tinfins, Reanimator etc., but compared to the manaless-Griselbrand build?

Balustrade Spy seems good enough for my small group, but I'm not repeatedly facing the top tier decks in every match, only occasionally as my group has a few very competitive types who always have top8 decks, many people there for fun (like me) who usually mix up their deck choice on a regular basis, and a few players who like to play homebrews with good cards.
It seems to have the same effect as Grisel against the opponents I've been facing, in that when you resolve a Grisel it's almost a win right there most of the time. Only you have more time (life points) against decks that hit you quickly, like Burn.
This is the biggest difference with Spy.
I'm sure I'm not the only one whose Dr'd up a Grisel and passed the turn because of low life points..... and then lost before the next attack phase.

As long as you include a Blightsteel you have an extra turn to attack with everything (or many more if you have 7 cards and they're not running discard), and have an answer against Painter in the main if you can stay to 7 cards also.
You'll make sure you get all the business out of your deck on your "go silly" turn (Angel of Despair & Flayer singletons, all your therapies etc. etc.) The point of getting all the juice out of the deck is a valid one, as I've lost games in the past after draw/dredging 7 off G-man, only to have that Angel of Despair still in the library with only 5 or 6 cards left. A second Draw7 not being possible!

Spy has a few cool interactions I've noticed too. Like when you're facing someone playing Goblin Charbelcher, who's already played/tutored up their Dryad Arbor & Dual Land via Land Grant. Play Spy on THEM for the mill-win.:tongue:
Bet they've never had dredge do that to them before!

[rektareloaded]

here's my current list of dredger: 4 troll, 4 imp, 4 thug, 3 dakmor, 3 SS..

[grip]

here's my current list of dredger: 4 troll, 4 imp, 4 thug, 3 dakmor, 3 SS..

I seriously dont know why do you tell us you are running ~8 other cards in maindeck since the core with 15 dredgers is pretty common.
Its your favoured playstyle but at the moment i dont see an average running the bloodghast package over arbor.

On the other side i dont got much time for testing due to my job but im trying to stay updated.

[rektareloaded]

@grip: i dont know too ;) ........ @all have anyone tried the deck vs NOelves? i need your thoughts about this.. coz im scared fighting this deck lol

[GoldenCid]

Just want to comment a situation:

I was running my manaless against omni-tell. He goes snt, omni and me sphinx! Dredge tree, 2 moebas appear with 2 bridges 2 nether shadow and 2 ichorids! He cast emrakul and gets the aditional turn ans attacks! i sac my guys and get 6 tokens and 3 lifes total. My turn double shadow, double ichorid + six 2/2 and that's all!!

what do you think i would hab happen if i drop a Griselbrand¿?

On the other hand: is any body running sickening shoal or contagion to kill shaman in side or i'm alone?

GC.

[slave]

I was running my manaless against omni-tell. He goes snt, omni and me sphinx!
what do you think i would hab happen if i drop a Griselbrand¿?

On the other hand: is any body running sickening shoal or contagion to kill shaman in side or i'm alone?

GC.

Sphinx is good, but either Grisel or Spy ( are both better in the right deck, although Grisel is a hreat straight swap) would mean a massive beating coming out.
They attack you after either of these guys hit the field, and your zombie army will be all-conquering (if you survive Omni coming out that is...)
You can bet they'll know attacking you is a baaaaaaad idea if they can't finish you, so they may be going for an alternate win-con in Brainfreeze.
Spy here, with backup from Blightsteel Colossus saves you here until you can get a beating in, but that's assuming a lot.

Contagion & SS are still good. I think a lot of peeps are running Annex right now instead to negate the Lackey, DRS etc. turn 1 plays that's also useful against Ponder/Brainstorm etc.

[grip]

I played another dissapointing 2/2.

Lost vs Canadian (the typical "FU! i'm Canadian-Draw")
Won vs BUG with a Tempo.shell
Won vs Esper Blade
Lost vs UW Control with e. Tutor (didnt found a dredger within 16 cards)

Random is random.

G1 vs Canadian was prety awesome. Reanimate Grisel on my Turn 2 with double Therapy-backup.
G2 i loose vs 2 Goyfs (he only plays 2 !!!) followed by a faerie macabre (wtf) and firespout to clean the way (another wtf)
G3 i loose due to Goyf, Lavamancer, Surgical, Delver and Counterbackup

I played Chancellor of the Annex in the main because this time i expected much combo ... and as you see i dodged them perfecly.
All in all im tending to dislike Chancellor since he does most of the time nothing. Of course it slows in the best scenario but at maximum for one turn. I always wished in these situations for a Faerie or Removal. When i wanted removal, it was mostly irrelevant if it would be Shoal or Contagion.

My thoughts so far

[slave]

I played another dissapointing 2/2.

I played Chancellor of the Annex in the main ...... All in all im tending to dislike Chancellor since he does most of the time nothing.

That's fair - I tend to side it out for game2 and 3 unless I'm against Storm/Combo or DRShit.

I had a night out on thursday night.
I went 5 from 5 with Spy.
My list;
4 Troll, 4 Imp, 4 Shell, 4 Thug, 4 Annex, 4 Bridges, 4 D.R., 4 Icky, 4 Phants, 4 Shadow, 3 Probe, 4 Therapy.
3 Spy, 1 Flayer, 1 Worldspine Worm (should be Blightstell Colossus)
Side of;
4 Dryads, 4 Reverents, 4 Claims, 3 Forests. (no fetches)

I chose to run 3 forests, instead of 2 Verdants and a single Forest, just in case the single Forest was dredged into the yard already.

The decks I faced in no order in particular, were Burn, Elves, UB Reanimator, 12post UG Eldrazi & MonoBlue Self-Mill.
Why do I always face bloody burn every single meet!?!?.
The Self Mill deck was via Mesmeric Orb & Basalt Monolith (a deck I have, a little wierd to face off against it!!)
The wierdest part was after my 12post opponent had brought out an Emrakul (hardcast of course) but chose not to attack due to me having a few bridges and quite a few creatures in play that would've given me a gigantic zombie army!!! I comboed out anyway. LOL.

Three of my opponents didn't seem to find any grave-hate whatsoever, so that definitely helped me.
The reanimator player seemed a bit green with the deck, didn't seem to know he could use Entomb during my endstep etc., and brought out Blazing Archon as his first choice in all three games, after he'd managed to ride it to victory in game 1. Sensing he was a noob, I stayed with my main list for g2 & 3.
Flayer got a hard-on and sprayed all sorts of evil devil jizzem all over his shit in game 2 and 3!
Turns out he wasn't running Griselbrand or Jin, so I gave him some pointers without being a dick about it, and tried to help him get to know the deck a little better, as all three games were over fairly quickly.

All in all, I had a very lucky night.
Seeing how I had a pretty easy run, I think it's unfair to judge whether Spy is viable or not, on this night though.

[ahg113]

My current list is;
4 Thug, Troll, Imp, Therapy, Doctor, LED, Probe, Narc, Phants, Bridge, Wraith
3 Spy, Shell, Shadow, Ichorid, Annex
1 Flayer, 1 Worldspine Wurm
I'm still playing around with numbers, still not quite happy with it yet.
My side comprised of Unmask, Mindbreak Trap, an Angel of Despair, Kederekt Leviathan, the remianing Shell, Shadow, Ichorid & Annex.
The reason why I kept all the singles, was so I could revert to the grind plan if LED was getting countered everytime it hit play.

Hey all,

So I'm typically a Belcher player, and I want to get into Dredge. I'm more interested in the Landless version, and since I have a playset of LED's wanted to utilize those as well. After perusing the last several pages, this is the decklist I think I'm most keen on, as I like the Spy.deck. Also, LED is just a discard enabler, correct?

Quick question, how can people be using Blightsteel Colossus as a DR target when the card has a replacement effect that puts it back into the library? That seems like a nom-bo to me, or am I missing something obvious? And since I'm new... why wouldn't Flamekin-Zealot be a finisher anymore? Is it possible a few people post a couple of current decklist, either spy or not spy. I checked the first post and that hasn't been updated, post referring to Hollywood's list are a needle in a haystack kinda thing.

Cheers,
took me way too long to figure out Doctor = Dread Return... tricky...

[Michael Keller]

Hey all,

So I'm typically a Belcher player, and I want to get into Dredge. I'm more interested in the Landless version, and since I have a playset of LED's wanted to utilize those as well. After perusing the last several pages, this is the decklist I think I'm most keen on, as I like the Spy.deck. Also, LED is just a discard enabler, correct?

Quick question, how can people be using Blightsteel Colossus as a DR target when the card has a replacement effect that puts it back into the library? That seems like a nom-bo to me, or am I missing something obvious? And since I'm new... why wouldn't Flamekin-Zealot be a finisher anymore? Is it possible a few people post a couple of current decklist, either spy or not spy. I checked the first post and that hasn't been updated, post referring to Hollywood's list are a needle in a haystack kinda thing.

Cheers,
took me way too long to figure out Doctor = Dread Return... tricky...

Blightsteel Colossus is used as a niche sideboard option against Painter's Servant decks. The Replacement Effect essentially wins you the game if they don't have something to wipe your graveyard with.

[ESG]

The Self Mill deck was via Mesmeric Orb & Basalt Monolith (a deck I have, a little wierd to face off against it!!)

That deck is likely not what you or he should play, assuming it's Four Horsemen:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24651-SCG-LA-Four-Horseman-in-17th-How&highlight=four+horsemen

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24091-Four-Horseman-Legality&highlight=four+horsemen

[NecroYawgmoth]

Quick question, how can people be using Blightsteel Colossus as a DR target when the card has a replacement effect that puts it back into the library? That seems like a nom-bo to me, or am I missing something obvious?

And since I'm new... why wouldn't Flamekin-Zealot be a finisher anymore?

Blightsteel Colossus is there to prevent you from selfmilling if you play the version with Balustrade Spy.

Flamekin Zealot is no Finisher anymore, because Flayer of the Hatebound wins the game with less setup, and wins through cards like Moat / Blazing Archon, etc.

[kwis]

That deck is likely not what you or he should play, assuming it's Four Horsemen:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24651-SCG-LA-Four-Horseman-in-17th-How&highlight=four+horsemen

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24091-Four-Horseman-Legality&highlight=four+horsemen

I thought the deck was pretty cool, of course it'd be a nightmare playing against a slow opponent using the deck.

[slave]

Not four horsemen - it was a "Booberry" variant, almost identical to the list I run, when I feel like playing blue combo (which is rare!)

He ran the Basalt Monolith, Memeric Orb enabler (c/o 12 blue filter in ponder, perordain, brainstorm), into a Dread Return via narcomoeba's > Angel of Glory's Rise > Laboratory Maniac & Azami, Lady of Scrolls > Tap two wizards = Win. :tongue:
His version ran a white splash for Enlightened Tutor, so I was VERY surprised he wasn't running a silver bullet style side to hate me out, OR a Show and Tell deck-morpher sideboard to negate any hate I may have sided in. (I've tried both)
I didn't know this til after the match, but we had a laugh about it after. The meta I play has been very DRS dominated lately (thankfully I've dodged them lately) so he didn't consider graveyard strategy to be much of a threat. He did say his game against Elves was an auto-win once he landed Mesmeric orb though.:laugh:

[ahg113]

I went 5 from 5 with Spy.
My list;
4 Troll, 4 Imp, 4 Shell, 4 Thug, 4 Annex, 4 Bridges, 4 D.R., 4 Icky, 4 Phants, 4 Shadow, 3 Probe, 4 Therapy.
3 Spy, 1 Flayer, 1 Worldspine Worm (should be Blightstell Colossus)
Side of;
4 Dryads, 4 Reverents, 4 Claims, 3 Forests. (no fetches)


What was your reasoning for moving away from LEDs? And did you find more trouble with enchantments than the Kraken or Angel could solve? What are your sideboard strategies for the forest package? I take it the reduction of 1 Probe is to make it a 60 card deck. Any particular reason you didn't keep it at 61?

[slave]

What was your reasoning for moving away from LEDs?
Situational. You need acceleration in hand to make them good. They're great with the right hand, but the chances of drawing that hand aren't great either.

And did you find more trouble with enchantments than the Kraken or Angel could solve?
Plenty.
e.g. Rest In peace and Leyline of the void landed early suck.

What are your sideboard strategies for the forest package?
Spy limits what side you can run. Taking out the Dread Return stuff against hate isn't ideal, but I've been testing the deck without all of it and retaining lots of acceleration.

[Michael Keller]

Running Manaless tomorrow at a big event.

[ahg113]

Running Manaless tomorrow at a big event.

Happy hunting, share the experience.

[rw1347]

Hey, I want to give manaless dredge a try in some testing, can someone show me a good list to start with.

[slave]

Hey, I want to give manaless dredge a try in some testing, can someone show me a good list to start with.
This is the standard "Hollywood" list. You really should try this before you try anything else.
The only difference as of lately, might be changing the removal for Chancellor of the Annex.

2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
3 Griselbrand
4 Dryad Arbor

4 Bridge from Below
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return

Sideboard:
4 Nature's Claim
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Reverent Silence
1 Forest
2 Verdant Catacombs

[rw1347]

thanks for the help!