[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

[ahg113]

Goldfishing with the Spy version, I've been able to combo out on turn 4/5/6. Is that about normal for this deck? On play style, when would you opt to draw a card rather than dredge, given that you have a dredger in your graveyard. Should get the rest of the cards in the deck this week, may play it this weekend. Some of the nuances I'm trying to figure out still. While gold fishing, I'm hesitant to attack because I don't want the bridges to blow up, if I have them. If they're not there, I swing just because.

There's a lot of blue in the Northeast (Philly). How does Manaless handle counterspells? I'm guessing sac dudes for Therapy prior to sacing for DR.

Also, what are the mulligan scenarios? Typically, if I have either a Phantasmagorian or a dredger in hand, especially with G.Probe or SW, I'll keep. A hand of 2-Icky, 2-BtB, DR, Therapy, and SW, that's a mulligan correct?

[RThomas-]

Goldfishing with the Spy version, I've been able to combo out on turn 4/5/6. Is that about normal for this deck? On play style, when would you opt to draw a card rather than dredge, given that you have a dredger in your graveyard. Should get the rest of the cards in the deck this week, may play it this weekend. Some of the nuances I'm trying to figure out still. While gold fishing, I'm hesitant to attack because I don't want the bridges to blow up, if I have them. If they're not there, I swing just because.

There's a lot of blue in the Northeast (Philly). How does Manaless handle counterspells? I'm guessing sac dudes for Therapy prior to sacing for DR.

Also, what are the mulligan scenarios? Typically, if I have either a Phantasmagorian or a dredger in hand, especially with G.Probe or SW, I'll keep. A hand of 2-Icky, 2-BtB, DR, Therapy, and SW, that's a mulligan correct?

Here are some of my experiences to answer your questions and comments regarding the Spy version:


I find the turn of critical damage to occur most often around turn 4; a simple average, however, might put it a tick earlier than that. It's certainly possible to combo on turn 2 with a cantrip or two, and it's also possible to start with Shambling Shell and hit air for several turns. So your average should lie on the low end of your experiences so far, in my opinion.

Drawing instead of dredging happens seldom: perhaps if you're digging for a Shoal/Contagion against Deathrite, Ooze, or a reanimator creature; or if you're guarding against maindeck gravehate or a Cunning Wish for Ravenous Trap, something like that.

Swinging with Bridges in play is certainly situation-dependant. You'll have to make a judgment call. If you're forced onto the aggro strategy, swinging into creatures is probably the right move since you're trying to deal 20 damage quick; your guys will come back again the next turn and you'll have a chance to refill your graveyard with more Bridges.

Either version of the deck is pretty terrific against counterspells because you don't need to play them. Both versions are well-equipped to beat down with your returned creatures without ever needing to cast Dread Return. Of course, you'll find that you want to run your Therapies and Dread Returns into counterspells anyway to amass a critical attack the next turn with Bridge zombies.

I don't know how other people handle mulligans with either version of the deck, but I don't think I've ever mulliganed in tournament play. In the few cases where I don't have a dredger, or even some with a lone Shell, I'll play Probe or cycle Wraith on the first turn to find a bigger dredger. With your cited hand, you might see one of your dredgers or Phants since you're going second anyway, or you might go: cycle Wraith, hit air, discard an Ichorid, attack next turn. If you found a Phantasmagorian, discard, then discard Ichorid-Therapy-Bridge, and if you find a dredger in your next draw, Therapy it out of your hand and gain a free zombie from Bridge. You'll have to play around and find the most comfortable play for you. Of course, if you don't find a dredger in a few draws, you lose. This happens.


There are a lot of nuances to playing with the deck like others have noted thus far. You'll require a lot of rounds of tournament play to see the fine points but once you do you'll discover a myriad of unseen interactions that'll make others jump.

[slave]

There are a lot of nuances to playing with the deck like others have noted thus far. You'll require a lot of rounds of tournament play to see the fine points but once you do you'll discover a myriad of unseen interactions that'll make others jump.

^^
This.
Take the time to read through the entire thread. It's well worth the time, simply to pick up on possible tricks, sideboard strategy and other "good stuff" cards that may make the deck.
Many of the cards have interactions not overly obvious at first sight, like using the one Phantasmagorian twice whilst the first trigger is on the stack for example.

RE: Mulligan's, this is a hard one. I try not to, but if you get a hand without a dredger and an answer to hate postboard, you're gonna find it hard to win.

[ahg113]

So in my meta there's a bunch of storm, and I've seen Sneak and Show players play Leyline of Sanctity in order to combat it. I'm thinking a Chancellor of the Forge is worthwhile in the SB in order to change the dynamic of the combo kill. Has anyone played around with this one yet? I read slave tried Craterhoof, but that only affects the creatures that are able to attack, it doesn't grant haste. Thinking I'd like to MD 1 Forge, 3 Annex.

Protip question. For the Spy Builds, putting in the land and green hate, what comes out? Obviously Spy and "shuffler", prolly the Dread Returns, that's 8 cards. What else do you find "extra"? Guessing Probes is another 4 slots to make 12.

My current SB is something like
4 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Nature's Claim
3 Reverent Silence
1 Angel of Despair
1 Kederket Leviathan

[slave]

So I took my Spy-Manaless-variant along to a meet.
And I got thumped!!

Apart from my 3rd round bye, I went 1 win and 3 losses.
I won against Jund,
Lost against RiP/Helm, Show n Tell (with Omniscience) & Enchantress/Solitaire.
Show and Tell first up, comboed out with T2 Omniscience both games. I had no chance from there in!
Next I came up aginst Jund, which I quickly killed in 2.
I then had a bye.
The next two games were long and drawn out....
Rest in Peace/Helm was painful. What a crappy matchup! I had no chance against this guy, but for whatever reason he couldn't put me away. He was running Enlightened Tutor and hit one on T1 every time, but even with RiP in play, couldn't hit a Helm b4 I killed his RiP. He'd then play another RiP.....:cry:
Then it was Solitaire. I got a great draw in game 1 and comboed out on T3 for the win. From there, Enchantress took AGES as he hid behind Elephant Grass inboth postboard games and just durdled like he didn't know the deck. I couldn't find a Dread Return to save my life!
Whilst he was dropping perm's like a man possessed, I couldn't find a Claim or a Reverent either.... A very.... long.... prolonged.... boring.... death.

Anyways.
After rolling with Spy for over a month > Hollywood Manaless VS. Spy Manaless????
I've run a Spy-variant 4 times now at a meet from memory, against quite varied opponents.
(I've got much more than that in experience with the hollywood list)

So what do I think after playing with Spy so much?!
Both lists have the exact same weaknesses really, but to me the main difference is whether you see Dryad Arbor as being a must in the main.
Really.
I consider any combo deck to be all about achieving the combo, not the strength of the combo, after actually doing the combo.
So for me, achieving the Spy combo is slightly weaker as we have no dryad arbor, although post combo we have a substantially stronger win-con.
Being able to combo below 7 life in a major plus, so that MUST be considered also, as this enabled me to win quite a few games. ....maybe not this week, but previously it sure did!:laugh:

Anyways... just my 0.02c.
I'm gonna give manaless a break, I've been rockin this deck so hard my opponents know what I'm playing b4 I even sit down. :cool:

[Txisvurger]

So how does the standard griselbrand list look like right now? Is it correct to MB Annex or Dryad arbors (or both? :really:)

Is it better to run 2 flayers? In this case do we run 2 Grisels or 3? And where do we stand on the number of dredgers? 16+?

PS: I was playtesting against elves and found green sun's zenith into scavenging ooze is pretty much a scoop without wraiths in hand. Do we MB removal given that there are a number of threats out there (ooze, DRS, goblins) or do we play it cool and just SB them?

As you can tell, I'm kind of confused atm :rolleyes:

[Varal]

I had a pretty interesting game this week at the legacy tournament.

He decides to start the second game, bad decision but it happens often. I show a Chancellor of the Annex so he is forces to use his fetchland to play his two lotus petal (Me: 20, Him: 19). I discard a card during the end step. He plays Show and Tell, Flayer of the Hatebound and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn enter play. I cycle Street Wraith to dredge (18,19). I bring back Ichorid (18,16) and dredge. On his turn he attacks me. I sacrifice my board. Flayer of the Hatebound comes back (18,11). I lose 15 life (3,11). I bring back Ichorid (3,8) and dredge. I attack with both my creatures (3,0). I win against turn 2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. In retrospective, he shouldn't have attacked but I guess he never even thought about not attacking.

My opponent made many mistakes even if he's good usually, but it shows the bad effects of auto-play. I was really impressed with how fast the damages accumulates once Flayer of the Hatebound hits the table.

@Txisvurger: Usually there is Contagion and Sickening Shoal maindeck. Standard Split is 3/1. It also helps against Deathrite Shaman.

[slave]

So how does the standard griselbrand list look like right now? Is it correct to MB Annex or Dryad arbors (or both? :really:)
I would. Annex is effective against any matchup should you get a grip with it.

The hollywood list above ^^^ on this page is pretty tidy.
Whether you go with 15 or 16 dredgers, Annex or removal or more acceleration in Probe's, or even Unmasks are all kinda open to how you wanna play.
Some peeps run Bloodghast & Dakmor Salvage for maindeck answers to gravehate.
The Hollywood list does have the advantage of having a more flexible sideboard with Dryad Arbor in the main.
My 0.02

[GoldenCid]

What is this for?






Kederekt Leviathan

[ahg113]

What is this for?

Another show'n'tell tech. Whatever they put into play gets returned to their hand. It probably should be another Angel, but I saw it mentioned and figured it'd be worth a shot for the heck of it. Recently completed deck, haven't had chance to play it yet.

[GoldenCid]

Another show'n'tell tech. Whatever they put into play gets returned to their hand. It probably should be another Angel, but I saw it mentioned and figured it'd be worth a shot for the heck of it. Recently completed deck, haven't had chance to play it yet.

I thought so, but just 1 seemed poor to me.
I run 1 Angel of despair MD and 2 aditional Venser, Shaper Savant to increase the chance to see it from the begining of g2.

On the other side, how do you feel guys with cards that need you to exile cards from your hand (unmask, shoal, contagion, so on)? Do you suffer the lack of 2 cards for turn discard or the benefit overcome the risks¿?

GC.

[slave]

I thought so, but just 1 seemed poor to me.
I run 1 Angel of despair MD and 2 aditional Venser, Shaper Savant to increase the chance to see it from the begining of g2.

On the other side, how do you feel guys with cards that need you to exile cards from your hand (unmask, shoal, contagion, so on)? Do you suffer the lack of 2 cards for turn discard or the benefit overcome the risks¿?

Ha ha Venser - completely forgot about that card! Haven't seen that in ages! That's ctually pretty nice tech too.

I think Unmask, COntagion & Shoal are all meta-call's. Gonna be totally up to what matchups you expect to face. You could lump Gitaxian Probe amongst these too.
And for me, the biggest problem comes down to when you play these cards. Being playable from your 2nd turn onwards only (unless you like the idea of a timewalk of course :laugh:) is a pretty big whole lotta suck, but then again - killing a goblin lackey is always a good move!

[Txisvurger]

Been playtesting, just realised how much of a pain RiP is (well, I already knew, but this time I felt it). Anyways, have a doubt: Can I cycle street wraith in response to an oponent thoutseizing it?

PS: I'm in love with gitaxian probe.

[Holly]

If he casts Thoughtseize you can respond with cycling Street Wraith, however if you let it resolve and he's allready chosing what you're discarding then no you can't cycle Street Wraith anymore.

[Txisvurger]

Thx, I imagined that but needed confirmation.

[chlb]

Hi all, first time posting here but I have been following this thread for a good while.

At the moment my decklist looks like this:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Griselbrand
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

Sideboard:
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Angel of Despair
3 Nature's Claim
4 Reverent Silence
1 Forest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest

It is pretty much the standard Hollywood list, with the removal package in the main replaced by the Chancellors. On the sideboard I have cut one Nature's Claim for Angel of Despair against Show & Tell.

I am planning to take this deck to a local "legacy champs" (http://porotour.com/porotour-events/legacy/) event later this month. So far I have played the deck in a GPT and a trial tournament for the big event, both times going 3-2 in the swiss. I got two more trials coming up before the main event, so I get to see more of the expected meta and fine-tune the list accordingly.

Biggest issue I have had so far is double Deathrite Shaman. The first one can be delayed with Chancellor of the Annex so I can get a dredger in the yard first, and after getting started a single Shaman can rarely keep up. But two of them usually put me into a situation very difficult to get out of. Any tips on how to survive this scenario? Just hope to have a Phantasmagorian to discard or have something like double Street Wraith at the ready when they try to eat my dredger?

Guess switching back to the the removal package might be the way to go if more people pick up Death & Taxes after its win in Strasbourg. I just like the Chancellor because having it in the opening hand is useful against almost any deck.

[chlb]

Played Manaless in another trial for the upcoming big legacy tournament, this time again falling one win short of dredging into the top 8.

Left Chancellors at home and switched back to the Contagion + Shoal deal.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Griselbrand
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

Side:
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Angel of Despair
3 Nature's Claim
4 Reverent Silence
1 Forest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest


Round 1: RUG Delver 2-0
Both games I got to make tons of zombies and they eat him.

Round 2: Belcher 2-0
He mulls to five in game one, I have the nuts and bust out a turn 2 kill. Second game he has the pieces to go off but I have Mindbreak Trap in my opening hand.

Round 3: TES 0-2
A guy from the group I have been travelling to local legacy events with. Last time we faced I beat him, so now was his time to have revenge. Game one I have the nut hand but he tendrils me on turn 2. Game two I had multiple Mindbreak Traps ready, but he proceeds to silence into tendrils on turn 2 again. After the fast games, we get some food and he proceeds to win the whole trial.

Round 4: Stoneblade with Deathrite Shaman 1-2
Game one he scoops to my zombie army. Games two and three are grindy with me fighting past both Deathrite and Rest in Peace, but both times losing too much momentum and getting beat to death with Jitte.

Round 5: UWR Delver 1-2
Another guy from my travelling group. Game one I miss on my dredges a few times but end up amassing a lethal force of zombies. Game two he blows me out with RIP. Game three he mulls into a hand which seems to be just RIP and lands. I play a Dryad Arbor, he Wastelands it. Second Arbor sticks, and proceeds to beat him for six turns while he tries to draw a clock of his own and I try to draw into my enchantment hate. Eventually he gets Vendilion Clique and I get Reverent Silence, but he has a hand full of sweet countermagic. Clique proves to be a faster clock than Arbor and he proceeds into the top 8.


Overall I like the current configuration of the deck so far. The removal package really helps in some fights, I just need to learn to avoid sideboards with RIP better. I will probably not make any changes for the next trial and just rock the same list.

[Karbunkelsopp]

Played manaless in a tournament last thursday. 34 people entered.

Played a more or less standard Hollywood list.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Griselbrand
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

Side:
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Contagion
3 Unmask
4 Reverent Silence
1 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills

Game 1 vs. Punishing Jund
Round 1, won the roll, chose draw.
No dredgers in opening hand, but chose to keep since the deck often manages anyway.
A turn 1 thoughtseize slowed me down further and i died quickly to two 6/7 Tarmogoyfs. Ouch. 0-1
Round 2, chose draw again. He slams down a leyline. I had no answers in opening hand and found nothing for 5 turns.
0-2, not a fantastic start.

0-1

Game 2 vs. Monoblack discard
Round 1, won the roll, chose draw.
Turn 1 ritual into hymn that misses all dredgers. Slows me down quite a bit. Turn two another hymn which also misses my dredgers. I now have bridge, Icorid and 2 contagions in my graveyard... Slowly I gather my cards until turn 5 when an Inquisition of Kozilek forces me to discard a cabal therapy. I die the following turn to evil small vampires with lifelink. 0-1
Round 2, chose draw.
Repeat performance with dark ritual and hymn, this time she hits Nether shadow and grave-troll! Much better!
After a few turns dredging I combo out and hit her face with about 30 dmg. 1-1
Round 3, she puts me on the draw after thinking a bit. Thanks! ;)
No dredger in opening hand but choose to keep anyway, had Reverent Silence and Dryad Arbor.
Turn 1 she plays Swamp into Planar Void and passes the turn. I play Arbor, Reverent silence and feel good.
This round continues with probably the worst possible draw from this deck as I continue for another 10-15 turns without seeing as much as a single dredger. I finally die to small vampires eating my face, sparing me further humiliation.
1-2, better than game one but still not enough...

0-2

Game 3 vs. Goblins
Round one, wins the roll chooses draw.
No dredger in opening hand but choose to keep anyway. Persistance!
He slams down Thalia after a few turns and we both grind out a long game of trading small guys until I find Arbor and contagion and can finally combo with Grisel. This took about 15-20 turns... 1-0
Round 2, he puts me on the draw (!)
He plays a sharpshooter that effectively shuts down my zombies by shooting his own guys and exiling all my bridges. lots of goblins run through my meagre defences and smash my face. 1-1
Round 3, i choose draw.
He plays land, vial, go. I discard a dredger. He puts Thalia into play before i can combo out and follows up with Rest i Peace the following turn. I die horribly to Piledrivers soon after. 1-2

0-3

Game 4 vs CounterTop Miracles
Round 1. Won the roll chose draw.
After a long game of building zombie armies, having dread returns force of willed or dazed and running into several(!) miracle terminus I manage to do a miscount of the cards left i my library. After drawing of griselbrand I now have zero cards left. This is not something I would recommend. I manage to put my opponent at 2 life and passes the turn. He does very little and I die in my upkeep from loss of library. This is the one game the entire tourney I really feel I messed up. Big time. One more card and i would have attacked for 30+ damage and Griselbrand... 0-1
Round 2, chooses draw.
After discarding my one dredger, a Shambling Shell, he uses a surgical extraction before I can dredge it. This puts me back a bit. After a few turns I start dredging and try to combo with grisel in the graveyard. Dread Return tastes a spell pierce and the next turn He plays Entreat the Angels for lots of fliers in my face. 0-2

0-4

Game 5 vs. Burn
Round 1, won the roll chose draw.
He burns me in all ways possible and I go down to 6 life before comboing out and winning. Deck worked perfectly. 1-0
I board out Contagion and sickening shoal since I didnt see a single creature on his side game one. More fun with Unmask and chancellor and anti hate!
Round 2 he puts me on the draw (again!)
Dredging works ok but he plays Tormods crypt before I can go off. Just when I get the dredging going again he kills me with goblin guides and lightning bolts. 1-1
Round 3, I choose draw.
Ensnaring bridge prevents me from attacking, but I can still rip apart his hand with therapy and combo out with flayer and troll. 2-1 First win!

1-4

Game 6 vs ANT.
Round 1, won the roll - chose draw.
He plays land and passes, I discard a troll and feel good about it.
He then comboes with Dark rituals, cabal rituals and Ad Nauseam drawing 20+ cards and going to 5 life before passing the turn. Last chance and I get more or less nothing from the dredge. His third turn is more or less playing and drawing lots of cards, gaining just enough mana and shooting me with a tendrils for lots and lots... 0-1
Round 2, I chose draw.
I show him a chancellor i my opening hand, he looks at it and sighs.
He can do more or less nothing before I combo out for lots of damage. 1-1
Round 3. He puts me on the play! At least one player understands how to play against my deck...
But! I actually have Unmask, a black card and a dreger in my opening hand and, after forcing myself to discard, I can start dredging the following turn anyway! Happy times!
My Shambling shell manages to hit a few narcomoebas and I can proceed to rip his hand apart with cabal therapy over the next few turns. First therapy is a miss, second hits two dark rituals and the third hits Past in flames. He still manages to combo on round 4 with lots of card draws, mana and a lethal Tendrils... 1-2

1-5

Did not make it into top 8, no surprise since this was my first ever tournament.
What I think is surprising is my (as I see it) total lack of any luck with the draws for so many of the games.
I actually won ALL the die rolls and thus lost all surprise factor in round one of all games. What I got when choosing draw was raised eyebrows and "oh, so youre playing THAT deck...".
Also, people still put me on the draw more or less all the time, often on pure reflex or habit. One opponent even thought long about it and said out loud "I probably should put you on the play but that just feels wrong..." and then put me on the draw anyway.

When it works the deck performs admirably regardless of the opposition.
When it doesnt you get what I got in most games. But thats no different than other decks in this format.
Manaless doesnt have manascrew but "dredgescrew" can be equally painful.
I managed to dodge all 5-6 death and taxes decks in the tournament. Death and taxes won the whole tourney.
Thalia with rest in peace backup is not nice.
I like Chancellor and Unmask in the deck but the most important parts in the board is still the antihate package.
I need to play more games in order to learn other decks and hit more with therapy.
And I need to learn how to count the cards left in my library...

It was fun though and I will probably play the deck in the same tournament next year.
With a bit better luck hopefully.

/Erik (Karbunkelsopp)

[eao]

What is the strategy when sideboarding anti-graveyard-hate with this deck? Do we cross our fingers and hope we draw an opener with BOTH Reverent Silence AND the mana to cast it? Do we mulligan until we find an answer? I would imagine the answer to this is no since we want to immediately DDD. However, is our top priority then to dredge like normal or topdeck until we find an answer?

[kwis]

What is the strategy when sideboarding anti-graveyard-hate with this deck? Do we cross our fingers and hope we draw an opener with BOTH Reverent Silence AND the mana to cast it? Do we mulligan until we find an answer? I would imagine the answer to this is no since we want to immediately DDD. However, is our top priority then to dredge like normal or topdeck until we find an answer?

We're pretty threat dense so we do OK against the kind of hate that hoses most GY based decks such as Crypt, Relic, Surgical, DRS. Leyline isn't a great diceroll against us but it will eventually hit given a large enough sample size. RIP is probably the most annoying card but they still have to find it and cast it, we have the potential to be putting guys on the board and casting therapy by that point.

The forest package is a bit rough to play with and I'm not really sure if it's worth the slots. However since the alternative is just auto losing to that kind of hate I guess you have to hedge your bets one way or another.

[chlb]

I usually just play normally after sideboarding against hate. If I am expecting something like RIP, I might not choose not to discard the whole six cards with Phantasmagorian but that's about it. Like kwis wrote, there is always the chance we get some guys into play and therapy the hate away from our opponent's hand before they get the chance to use it.

If the hates hits, then I just try to recover and then continue the usual business. I guess the most important thing is not to give up too easily, I've managed to pull out victories from seemingly impossible situations by just keeping my spirits up and continuing playing.

One game I was left with two narcos and a couple of zombies against my opponents RIP, two Dark Confidants, Knight of Reliquary, Scavenging Ooze, and Quasali Pridemage. I just kept attacking with the narcos while letting him attack with his Confidants, only using my zombies to chump or trade with his other creatures. Eventually he gets so low that the Bobs might just be too much for him, so he ends up blowing his own RIP with the Pridemage in order to get some life-gaining food for the Ooze. Unfortunately for him the Primade gets exiled before the RIP goes away so I hit him to one life (I was at three myself) and on his upkeep he reveals a land... and Inquisition of Kozilek.

Other game against Show and Tell he plays a Grafdigger's Cage. I don't have Nature's Claim or a green source, but I have Griselbrand in my hand if I remember right. I draw into a forest or Dryad Arbor and then I just keep dredging normally, making note if any of my Claims hit the bin so I know to switch back into drawing mode if necessary. Eventually he plays Show & Tell, dropping Emrakul while I drop my Griselbrand. Haven't seen any Claims yet, so I proceed to draw 14 cards during his end step, hitting two Nature's Claims. I try to destroy the cage, but he has countermagic. I try again on my turn, and the cage breaks down. With my graveyard free and fully stacked, I proceed to combo kill him with Flayer and Troll while his Emrakul stares at me across the table.

[slave]

What is the strategy when sideboarding anti-graveyard-hate with this deck? Do we cross our fingers and hope we draw an opener with BOTH Reverent Silence AND the mana to cast it? Do we mulligan until we find an answer?

Comes down to what you're willing to include in your side.

I prefer to run 8 answers, in Reverent Silence & Nature's Claim.
I used to run 2 Verdant Catacomb's with a single forest, but having dredged away my single forest more than once, and Dryad Arbor's getting nailed with removal immediately, it's persuaded me to run more than one basic forest. I now run 2 Verdant & 2 Forest for the typical Manaless-Griselbrand deck.
It's a lot of sideboard space, but if RiP, Leyline, Grafdigger's etc are common for you, it may be nice to have the option.

RE: Mulligan's;
This is almost always a no. But I have done it postboard after seeing what kind of hate they're packing.
If they're just going with OOze, DRS or relic's, then I proceed as normal.
If they're packing a Helm/RiP combo deck, I may just be mulling (once only) for either a green source or an answer, if I draw neither.
I would never mull to find both pieces below 6. That's crazy talk!!!:laugh:

And do we cross our fingers?
Yes.
And also yes.

------------------------------------------------------------------

I ran a blue combo deck last wknd, and got absolutely pummelled!!
Far OUT!! ....such a hostile environment for combo right now!

Think I might just return to the dark side.:tongue:

[eao]

So against DRS or Relic of Progenitus we just play normal, more or less. Against more serious hate like RiP you're willing to mulligan once to find either a mana source OR an anti-hate card. Assuming you do start with one of the two are you just playing like normal until the hate comes down at which point you start drawing instead of dredging to find the other piece (the mana or anti-hate) that you didn't start out with?

[slave]

So against DRS or Relic of Progenitus we just play normal, more or less. Against more serious hate like RiP you're willing to mulligan once to find either a mana source OR an anti-hate card. Assuming you do start with one of the two are you just playing like normal until the hate comes down at which point you start drawing instead of dredging to find the other piece (the mana or anti-hate) that you didn't start out with?

I tend to dredge slower, (ie I don't use Phantasmagorian or go below 7 cards in hand) if someone has a Tormod's/Relic on the field. That way, if they pop it - whoop-dee-fuckin-do.
With these "*POP* it's gone"-style artifacts I don't bother looking for hate/mana, I just wait, playing anything relevant like Therapies ASAP.

Against decks running RiP, Leyline, Grafdiggers , I've found it'll depend on how many cards they kept. I try to stay at 7 cards unless I'm going off.
If my opp. has mulled down to 3 or 4 cards or so, (which happens against dredge!) I tend to go aggressive, forcing them to play their hand quickly. If they snap keep at 7, I play pretty cautiously! With Grafdigger's and Leyline we have no option but to draw if they've come out turn 1 or earlier.
Until hate hits the table, I tend to play as per normal, although staying at 7 - always using Therapies to drop their hate, or sometimes their eminent win-con if required, to the bin.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After getting smashed with Blue combo this week, I went with good ole' Manaless this week. There's just something I love about this deck!
Went 2-3.
I thought I did okay considering what I came up against.
Losses against R/G Belcher (turn 1 wins both games! :mad:), SnT Omniscience (T2 combos both games) & Miracles.
Miracles was a very entertaining match, going to 3. I won the first, he then Terminus'd his way to victory as I faced numerous hate cards.
Wins against High Tide combo (3 games, won the second two) & Jund (won both quickly with god-draws).

My matchup against Miracles has convinced me that 2 forests & 2 Verdants is where I wanna be. Summoning sickness sucks..... that is all.

[chlb]

Played in the last qualifier for the local WPN premium legacy tournament (http://porotour.com/porotour-events/legacy/), dredging my way into the finals. The tournament was a bit smaller (guess everyone was preferring ice hockey or recovering from Eurovision or whatever), we played only four swiss rounds and cut to top 4.

I got back from a week long work trip just one day before the event, so I decided to play my previous list without any changes. This is how it went.

Round 1: RUG Delver 2-0


Both games went pretty much the usual way my RUG matchups tend to go. Make zombies, eat brains.

Round 2: BUG Delver 2-1


Got paired against a friend of mine from my travelling group. Game one ends with me ripping his countermagic away with Therapy, he scoops when I Dread Return targetting Griselbrand.

Game two he has good Deathrite Shamans and ends up beating me to death with a Tombstalker.

Game three we got to the same point as in game one, me reanimating Griselchops and him scooping in response.


Round 3: UWR Delver 1-2


Same guy from my travelling group who I faced in the previous qualifier. He wins the roll, smiles and puts me on the play. I always joke doing that gives bad karma, and as it were he loses the first game.

Game two he finds RIP with Enlightened Tutor. I have Arbor and Reverend Silence, but he has the countermagic. He proceeds to drop a fast clock in the form on Geist of St. Traft and I can't find any answer in time.

Game three is best summed up by the following sequence: RIP, Reverent Silence, Daze, Reverent Silence, Daze, Reverent Silence, RIP, Nature's Claim
I have two Dryad Arbors staring down his Geist, but he flashes in Vendilion Clique on my end step. I don't have removal in my hand, so the game ends with him at 40 life, while I am exactly at 7.

Round 4: RUG Delver 2-0


Game one ends with me passing the turn with reanimated Flayer while having graveyard stocked with Nether Shadows and Ichorids. He scoops.

Game two I get all the pieces I want in the bin. He tries to find his gravehate with a ponder and two brainstorms, but hits nothing and that's
it.

I end up being the top seed after the swiss (best part of the day: I heard someone yell "PHANTASMAGORRRRRRIAN!" in a growly voice after the final swiss standings were announced), so I got to put everyone on the play in top 4. Quite good since by that point everyone in the room knew what I was playing.

Top 4: The Rock 2-1


Can't remember much of the specifics anymore. Game one I beat with Ichorids and Nether Shadows.

Game two he gets the Deathrite Shamans going and I can't get rid of them fast enough.

Game three I get nut dredges and make a zombie army during a Therapy session. I remember him having one mystery card in hand, as he draws his card few turns later. He goes like "If this is a land, I cast this Maelstrom Pulse!". He drops the land down... then reveals Knight of the Reliquary and extends the hand.

It was a hot day, and I felt I got a bit dehydrated. Luckily my brother had decided to stay and watch the top 4 so he ran to get some hydration for me and I was able to hold it together.

Finals: Goblins 1-2


Game one I kill him by reanimating Griselbrand, drawing/dredging 14 cards and ending it with Flayer & Grave-Troll combo.

Game two he mulls to 4, keeping a hand with Tormod's Crypt and land. He top decks Relic of Progenitus, an event that causes everyone to burst into laughter. I Contagion the first goblin he plays while figuring out if I can manage to draw into green source in time (I think I had Claim in my hand at the time). Turns out I couldn't.

Game three he drops turn 1 Lackey, my starting hand is quite bad so I decide to drop down a Dryad Arbor ready to trade. That ends up being my fatal mistake, as he proceeds to remove it from the Lackey's path and I end up getting overrun. My turn to extend the hand.

The guy in the finals was really nice and good to play against though, so I'm glad he got to take goblins to the top.

Most people seem to know the trick already, so I was thinking of switching my sideboard around a bit to counter people putting me into play. With the help of Unmask I could punish people for keeping or mulliganing into a shady hand with hate. And it pitches to Contagion/Shoal.

Something like this, perhaps?
4 Unmask (this would be the new thing I try out)
4 Mindbreak Trap (definately expecting TES)
4 Nature's Claim (RUG and BUG seem side in Surgical and/or Cage)
1 Forest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest

RIP would still be a heavy beating and I don't know if trying to make them discard it is better than trying to blow it up if after it lands. Any input on this would be welcome.

I have one small tournament next Wednesday where I can test my changes, then it is show time in the big event.

[syfilisx]

That was me shouting phantasmagorian, haha. Congrats on finals place, also nice report.

[slave]

Seems with M14 we have some new rules.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26102-Changes-to-the-planeswalker-uniqueness-rule

So what are the implications for Manaless?
Personally, I hate the new rules about legendary perm's, I think it's just stupid possibly having 2 Emarkul's, or 2 Griselbrands, or two Jace, the Wallet Raper in play.
But;
If we now have the ability to play our Griselbrand in response to Show and Tell.deck, and can get it into play without the legend rule killing it, enabling us to dredge off it - could this be in our favour?

You out there Hollywood?
What's everyone's thoughts on this?

[Final Fortune]

Seems with M14 we have some new rules.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26102-Changes-to-the-planeswalker-uniqueness-rule

So what are the implications for Manaless?
Personally, I hate the new rules about legendary perm's, I think it's just stupid possibly having 2 Emarkul's, or 2 Griselbrands, or two Jace, the Wallet Raper in play.
But;
If we now have the ability to play our Griselbrand in response to Show and Tell.deck, and can get it into play without the legend rule killing it, enabling us to dredge off it - could this be in our favour?

You out there Hollywood?
What's everyone's thoughts on this?

Considering they get to activate their Griselbrand and play their cards before we do it likely favors them more than us, we can't block Omniscience decks from casting Griselbrand, finding Burning Wish and then killing us anymore.

[eao]

Considering they get to activate their Griselbrand and play their cards before we do it likely favors them more than us, we can't block Omniscience decks from casting Griselbrand, finding Burning Wish and then killing us anymore.

I was under the impression that 3 Griselbrands were typically included in the main-deck so that there would be a high chance of being able to cast him off of an opponents Show and Tell. With the change in the legend rule would it be wise to consider cutting 1 Griselbrand in favor of another utility creature or possibly a silver bullet? Or is the main reason for 3 Griselbrands to have a high probability of dredging him and subsequently being able to Dread Return him?

[kwis]

I was under the impression that 3 Griselbrands were typically included in the main-deck so that there would be a high chance of being able to cast him off of an opponents Show and Tell. With the change in the legend rule would it be wise to consider cutting 1 Griselbrand in favor of another utility creature or possibly a silver bullet? Or is the main reason for 3 Griselbrands to have a high probability of dredging him and subsequently being able to Dread Return him?

Dread Return on Griselbrand against an opponent without Force is basically game over if you have a few dredgers in your yard. You draw 7, turn your library upside down, and DR into Flayer into Gravetroll then dome them for a lot. Being able to Show and Tell him was seemingly just a nice bonus.


I think that we are less likely to see the implications of the changes affect us directly but rather shape the meta around us. That being said I don't really have a problem playing against some of these Jace decks.

[Jankwolf]

So I might as well title this as "Lessons and Theories". To be specific, I experiment with different versions of Manaless Dredge and lessons that I have learned from each one. I have tried the traditional "Hollywood" List and I have gone as far as using Unmask, Gitaxian Probe, Chancellor of the Annex to using Leyline of Sanctity.
This a tournament report with what I think is my fastest list and very very far from perfect. I'll write up my current list and possible choices that I have used and what I have found. I will further explain my choices after I give a brief summary of the tournament.

And now...without further delay. I present to you...my deck list lol

4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ichorid
4x Nether Shadow
4x Narcomoeba
4x Dryad Arbor
4x Gulgari Gravetroll
4x Gulgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Griselbrand
2x Flayer of the Hatebound
1x Forest
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
2x Shambling shell

Sideboard:
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
4x Reverent Silence
4x Nature's Claim
4x Leyline of Sanctity


Round 1 Against Matt/ Dragon Stompy (From what I could tell) Win
Game 1: The only thing relevant from this game was a turn 2 Phyrexian Revoker on Phantasmagorian. The game was finished by a turn 3 Griselbanned>Flayer>Troll
Game 2: Was over quick by a turn 2 Grisel>Flayer>Troll

Round 2 Against John/ Esper Blade of some flavor. Loss
Game 1: Ended up with me going down to one life from Griselbrand and winning through Flayer/Troll
Game 2: I lost due to a random fluke of getting all 4 Nether Shadows in on the second turn in my hand of no dredgers. They were Surgical Extracted soon after I threw them in the graveyard via Phantasmagorian.
Game 3: No dredgers or gas of any kind.
Note* I am not discrediting my opponents play skill at all. John is a very calculated and deliberate player and an utter blast to play against. The point I am trying to make is that I wouldn't have won if my hands were better, there is no way of knowing that. But I can assure you, games 2 and 3 would have been closer.

Round 3 Against Chris/ ANT
Round 1: Tendrils kill me early
Round 2: Revert to round 1

Round 4: I didn't get my opponents name/ Some random Dead guy B/W home brew something?
Game 1: The only game we played It was straight Flayer into Ichorid/Shadow recursion.
My opponent didn't know how to handle Manaless and due to the fact that he drew a previous round he didn't have a chance of sliding into the top 8.

Round 5: Jeff/ Some new flavor of show and tell/omniscience/omnimaniac/Infinite Cunning or whatever you would call this Dreamhalls abuser.
Game 1: I lost via some Ant/Clash card.
Game2: I we both opened with LoS and I eventually got there with Zombie beat down.
Game 3: Laboratory Maniac did his thing.

I dropped after that..
So what I have learned. This build is very explosive and I didn't have a complaint about the build. That being said I would change a few things to adjust for what I saw.
First the sideboard, I have seen a few things that have shown that grave hate isn't presented in the usual LotV or Tormod's Crypt. The grave hate I have been seeing is ether none at all, DRS or SE. So it seems people are onto bigger and better things than trying to prove that Dredge is dead. As for what I would change it would look something like this.

4x Nature's Claim
2x Reverent Silence
4x Dryad Arbor
2x Forest
2x Verdent Catacombs
1x Unmask

Reasons behind moving Dryad Arbor. One, switching it out with Chancellor of the Annex isn't plan breaking. It has been argued that Dryad Arbor is your answer to decks that main deck hate bearers like Thalia etc. But decks that run cards like that also run Wasteland and from what I have found Dryad Arbor doesn't normally stick around long enough for it to become tapped. Second, another argument is that Dryad Arbor is another creature to be stacked above Nether Shadow. If I need to explain this I truly feel sorry for your deductive skills. To put it in "Connect the Dot" style, one creature is being moved out and one creature is being moved in.

As for changes to the main deck...

4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ichorid
4x Nether Shadow
4x Narcomoeba
4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Gulgari Gravetroll
4x Gulgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Griselbrand
2x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
3x Unmask
1x Shambling shell

-1 Forest
-4 Dryad Arbor
-1 Shambling Shell
-1 Gitaxian Probe

The reason behind all this is to shore up things like targeted turn 1 discard which has the potential to slow us down. Chancellor has the ability to slow this down as well as slow combo long enough to get Cabal Therapy online. Unmask gets rid of problem cards like RiP, Surgical..Pick your flavor of grave hate.
This is most likely this list I will be running at SCG Baltimore. If anyone as further questions or any productive comment they would like to add I am all ears (or eyes in this case.)

[slave]

As for changes to the main deck...

4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ichorid
4x Nether Shadow
4x Narcomoeba
4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Gulgari Gravetroll
4x Gulgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Griselbrand
2x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
3x Unmask
1x Shambling shell

-1 Forest
-4 Dryad Arbor
-1 Shambling Shell
-1 Gitaxian Probe

The reason behind all this is to shore up things like targeted turn 1 discard which has the potential to slow us down. Chancellor has the ability to slow this down as well as slow combo long enough to get Cabal Therapy online. Unmask gets rid of problem cards like RiP, Surgical..Pick your flavor of grave hate.
This is most likely this list I will be running at SCG Baltimore. If anyone as further questions or any productive comment they would like to add I am all ears (or eyes in this case.)

Good Luck.
I'd be wary of running so few dredgers. Only 13 is an open invitation for discard and extraction to ruin your day IME.
Unmask & Probe are both only really useful on turn 2. Just sayin...

If you're not running any lands in the main, had you tried Balustrade Spy?
I ran a version (along with RThomas and a few others) with him a few pages ago on this thread, for quite a few weeks in a row - did plenty of testing too.
I found it to be quite effective against decks that pummel your life total quickly, like Burn, Goblins etc.
Personally, I chose to stay with Grisel, but only because I favour Dryad Arbor in the main - no other reason.

Back to the Legend Rule;
We may see cards like Jitte, Thalia, Giest etc. becoming a lot more prevalent. Jitte especially... which I personally hate playing against with this deck, as they can kill any creature we play b4 a Dread Return. I'm gonna be running Manaless the next few weeks and see if I notice any changes in relation to the new rules.

[Jankwolf]

The number of dredgers is fine, I've made it into top 8's with less.
I have one big problem with spy in the fact it's very one sided. Griselbrand is more versatile and in this build is often of the field by turn 2-3. I've taken several sample hands and they all have an element we require to stay competitive. Unmask, Chancellor, Probe or Wraith all generate an advantage of one kind or another.
It's a balance of speed to disruption. I've played several different lists, ones where it devoted everything to speed and others that favored the disruption path of things. I'm not claiming to be an expert on Manaless so what I'm suggesting is just what I think is the best route to go.

In several tournaments I've been in it's important for this deck to do something very relevant on turn two (assuming you're on the draw). I dislike pitching a dredger on turn one and just dredging on turn two. I feel like there are more options available to us than that. I have a whole lot more testing to do before I even try to back up any of my points so right now it's just an idea that I'm going to run with.

[chlb]

Managed to dredge my way into the top 8 of the local WPN premium legacy tournament, also known as Poro Tour Legacy 2013.

I was expecting a lot of RUG delver (I don't think I have even lost a game against it with manaless) so I felt pretty good with my deck selection. Turns out I faced all the other decks instead.

Decklist can be found here:
http://porotour.com/2013/05/26/poro-tour-legacy-2013-top-10-decklists/

I tested the Unmask sideboard tech in one tournament before this one, but could not get enough data from that to really decide if I wanted them or not. So I took the safe route and packed 4 Reverent Silences with 4 Nature's Claims.

Don't remember much of the games anymore, so here is just a list of results.

Swiss:
Round 1 Omni-Sneak 2-0
Round 2 UW Control 2-1
Round 3 UB Tezzeret 1-2
Round 4 Esper Blade 2-1
Round 5 Stasis 2-1
Round 6 Merfolk 1-1-1
Round 7 Rw Goblins 2-0

After the cut to top 8 a friend of mine was the top seed and I was the last, so we had to battle each other (that's what I get for going to time in game 3 with merfolk :tongue:). All in all three guys from our group ended in top 8, with one more hanging close by at 9th place.

Top 8:
Quarters UR Nivmagus 0-2

Got crushed quickly by the blue-red elemental eating all the Flusterstorms, so I grabbed my prize money and joined the cheerleader squad.

To celebrate, I will reward my trolls and ichorids with some diamonds. Lion's eye diamonds. So next time I will be filling the graveyards while shooting away with some quadlazers. :smile:

[slave]

Managed to dredge my way into the top 8 of the local WPN premium legacy tournament, also known as Poro Tour Legacy 2013.
......
To celebrate, I will reward my trolls and ichorids with some diamonds. Lion's eye diamonds. So next time I will be filling the graveyards while shooting away with some quadlazers. :smile:

Congrats.
Funny you mention LED's - they're the first thing I purged my store credit towards too!
That and foiling out some of the cheaper cards....:laugh:

[TableTopMagic]

This is what I am looking at right now for my manaless version. I am hoping to take this to a SCG Open in August. (If the Meta looks bad for Dredge I will most likely just play Goblins) Thoughts and comments are welcome.


Basic Package.

4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Phantasmagorian
3x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Street Wraith
4x Bridge from Below
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
4x Gitaxian Probe

My spin in the package.

3x Balustrade Spy
2x Flayer of the Hatebound
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
4x Chancellor of the Annex



Legacy for the most part is dead in my area. (Just Moved here from Cali) When I mention it at most of the LGS it is normally confused with ether casual table top Magic, or hateful turn two I am dead logic. Ether way it is hated on. Since Cockatrice is now down I don't have much in the way of play testing I am hoping to come here and bounce a few ideas around. Maybe see what sticks. I will need help with a side tho but I am not to worried about that until the weeks before the event.


Balustrade Spy

I am using the Spy over Griselbrand because I like the fact that I don't have to pay 7 life to dump my deck into the graveyard. I feel it can be relevant on games against RDW and super aggro decks that can try to race me. Making this choice as also forced me to drop all lands, which is fine with me. I did once ran the Dakmor Salvage/Bloodghast variant. Then the Dryad Arbor with the 9-12 cards dedicated sideboard. I didn't like it. I am not a fan of swapping out a 1/6 of my deck to help with one possible card in a sideboard. The numbers didn't add up to me. I have since moved away from those two into the fully Manaless version you see now.


Flayer of the Hatebound



Flayer is my main win-con. It does it dirty work and in a pinch it can be reanimated then sacrificed to a Cabal Therapy to squeak in a few extra points of damage. Hopefully making a couple more zombies for my Army. :P


1x Flame-Kin Zealot

Second win-con, gives me options since Ill placed Surgical Extraction can really cripple a Hatebound, Spy or Troll.


Chancellor of the Annex

I really like seeing this in my opening hands. I helps keep things a little even since my first turn isn't spectacular. Slowing them down even one turn makes all the difference in competitive Legacy. Exspecially if they don't particularly know how to deal with Manaless Dredge.

[dsck]

Well this deck is a lot fun!

Only problem I've had so far has been how to sideboard most effectively, any tips? My list is similar to what chlb ran at this event http://porotour.com/2013/05/26/poro-tour-legacy-2013-top-10-decklists/


Chancellor of the Annex instead of Mindbreak Traps in the sideboard.

If theres lots of Deathrites around are 1 shoal and 3 contagion maindeck enough?

[chlb]

Only problem I've had so far has been how to sideboard most effectively, any tips?


There's quite good sideboarding breakdown in post #541 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21544-Deck-Manaless-Ichorid&p=671928&viewfull=1#post671928). It's for an older version of the deck but the principles are the same.

Cards I used for sideboarding were the removal package, Phantasmagorians, 1 Flayer, 1 Griselbrand, 1-2 Dread Return. Depending on the matchup and what hate I was expecting, some selection of the mentioned cards got switched out. You don't always need to bring in the forest; if you see no Wastelands you can manage with 4 Arbors and the fetches. The sideboard package I most often brought in was 4 Nature's Claim, 1 fetch, 1 forest/fetch.


If theres lots of Deathrites around are 1 shoal and 3 contagion maindeck enough?

I've found Deathrite Shaman can't really keep up if you can get a good dredge in (this deck being more threat dense than the LED version it happens more often than not). With the standard list in main you got 4 pieces of removal, 4 Street Wraiths, and 4 Phantasmagorians that can beat turn 1 Deathrite. And if you have Chancellors in the sideboard bringing those in can delay Deathrite by one turn.

[birdbrains]

I played this deck yesterday to a top 4 finish at the MTG Deals Legacy Open. It was just short of 100 players with a $4k prize pool, and we ended up splitting top 4 for $600 each.

Here's the list I played:

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Narcomoeba
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
3 Griselbrand
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal

Sideboard:
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Reverent Silence
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest


The report is from some notes I took, so some of it might be incomplete, but I've tried to recreate the games as best as possible. All games 2 and 3 where the opponent had the choice, they chose to play, unless I made a note of it. I think it was 3 game 2s all day that I had to pass turn 1.

Round 1 - Deathblade

Game 1 - I keep a hand that's something like double Dread Return, double bridge, but no dredgers, and hope I'll see one in the first couple of turns. Unfortunately, I don't see a dredger until the turn before I die to a Geist of St Traft.

Board:
-2 Dread Return
-1 Griselbrand
-1 Flayer
+4 Chancellor of the Annex

Game 2 - I start off with a couple decent dredges. I don't remember him doing anything relevant other than a deathrite that I contagion. A couple turns later, I reanimate 2 Chancellors of the Annex and he scoops.

Game 3 - I get a fast start with a Street Wraith + Dredger hand, and kill him with a growing army of zombies and Ichorids.

Record: 1-0


Round 2 - Dustin Cristos with ANT

Game 1 - He leads off with a Probe, revealing a hand with a couple dredgers. I think I get two dredges in while he cantrips a little, then kills me on turn 3 with a PiF loop while I have the kill in my graveyard for the next turn.

Board:
-3 Contagion
-1 Sickening Shoal
-1 Dread Return
-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Griselbrand
+4 Mindbreak Trap
+4 Chancellor of the Annex

Game 2 - He puts me on the play. I get a fast hand with a dredger + Street Wraith + Mindbreak Trap. I get a couple early ichorids to build some early pressure, then he probes me, revealing the Trap I have. Unfortunately for him, he doesn't have a discard spell, and doesn't realize how to play around Trap until after the game. He passes the turn, and I kill him with DRs on two Flayers.

Game 3 - My notes on this one are really short, all it shows is that he combos early, but doesn't quite kill me, then combos again a little later(?). Either way, I lose this one quick. I think I just kept a hand without hate. This ends up being my only loss in the Swiss.

Record - 1-1


Round 3 - Deathblade

Game 1 - According to my notes, he drops a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, but somehow I get dredges in. Eventually leading up to me building a couple zombies and Ichorids up. I therapied him for Stoneforge, but he reveals 2 FoW, 2 Jace and a land, so I just make a bunch of zombies with Ichorids and kill him. This game for me really showed how people absolutely don't know how to play against this deck. He had an active DRS since turn 2, and I was still able to take over the game.

Board:
-2 Dread Return
-1 Griselbrand
-1 Flayer
+4 Chancellor

Game 2 - He gets another turn 1 DRS, as I have a hand without Chancellors and without acceleration. Followed with turn 2 SFM, turn 3 Batterskull, turn 4 Jitte puts the game away for him.

Game 3 - This game went very long, and my notes are pretty short. But I'll try to cover what was relevant. I reveal a turn 0 Chancellor, and the first turn is land go for him and DDD for me. Turn 2, he plays another land, then plays a DRS for just G. I stop him, call a judge and the DRS gets countered, and I start dredging. My dredges were pretty bad, and the game goes pretty long, ending up with me having 5 cards left in my library and being down to just drawing single cards. He had two detention spheres over the course of the game. One snagged 3-4 zombies and the other got a pretty big 10. With 3 cards left, I make a bunch of zombies hoping he doesn't have a third Sphere, and pass the turn. He doesn't and I swing for lethal the next turn.

Record - 2-1


Round 4 - Death & Taxes

Game 1 - He leads off with Plains into Aether Vial, and I discard Phantasmagorian. He doesn't do anything turn 2, and I have Dredger + Wraith to get my yard pretty full on turn 2 by activating Phantasmagorian, cycling Wraith in response, and discarding more. I think I get a Nether Shadow or two that turn, and Therapy for Thalia. I get to see 2 Mindcensors, 2 Revokers, Jitte and Karakas. He plays both Mindcensors and a Revoker on Griselbrand and manages to get me down to 11 before I build up a lethal army of zombies.

Board - I was all set to board in the full enchantment hate package, expecting my opponent to be playing at least a couple RiP in the board, but while boarding, he flips a Relic, and I put everything back in the box and settle for just Chancellors. I end up doing:

-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Dread Return
-1 Griselbrand
+4 Chancellor

Game 2 - My first few turns are slow dredges and his are Turn 2 Ethersworn Canonist, Turn 3 Thalia, Turn 4 Mirran Crusader. Meanwhile, I just build up zombies by not attacking with my Ichorids, and somewhere around turn 5 or 6 alpha strike with 14 zombies, 2 Ichorids and 2 Nether Shadows. Blocks bring him to 1, then on his turn he draws a card and extends the hand. He showed me his board afterwards which was a couple Relics, the Canonist and a couple completely irrelevant cards.

Record - 3-1


Round 5 - Bernardo (?) with Esper Blade

Game 1 - He has a turn 2 Stoneforge, telling me it's just another Blade deck, but I get lucky this time and I don't even have to play around DRS. I bring back Ichorids for a few turns before killing him with a Flayer.

Board:
Same as the other two Blade decks

Game 2 - I keep a Street Wraith hand and get a couple early Ichorids, he has a StP for one, and adds a Bob to the board. But a turn later, I have the combo finish and kill him with the Flayer.

Record - 4-1


Round 6 - Mike Hadley with Goblins

Game 1 - He leads off with a first turn Lackey, but I have a Contagion for it. I'm able to get a few dredges in, while he builds up a board presence. He manages to get me down to 11 with Warchief and another goblin, but I'm able to DR Griselbrand into the Flayer kill.

Board-
Same as Blade decks

Game 2 - He plays the Sac a Goblin: Add R dude turn 1, and I get a dredge in revealing a Bridge, but no Ichorids/Shadows. He clears the bridge after a turn, but he stays stuck on one land. A couple turns later, my yard is huge, I have a bunch of zombies and Ichorids ready to come back, and he's still on one land with a Relic. If he'd had the relic a turn earlier or had one more land, I would have lost this game, but I got lucky. He told me after the game he kept because of the sac dude and a war marshal in his hand, which would have controlled my bridges for multiple turns.

Record - 5-1


At this point, we all look at the standings and I'm in 7th place, just short of being able to draw in. The Deals crew had finally got their equipment working, and the feature match up, and right before pairings they call me over to be on camera. I was very excited as not only was it the first feature match of the Deals Opens, but it was my first on camera match as well. I know there were some misplays, but overall the match went very in my favor.

The coverage can be found here: http://www.twitch.tv/mtgdeals/b/426829677

Pre-match commentary starts at 5:44


Round 7 - Donald Campbell with Belcher

Since it's on camera, I think it might be better to go over what I was thinking during the round, instead of a play-by-play.

When he probed me, I put him on Storm, and the Chrome moxes made me think TES. Once he emptied for 8, though I figured the game was over but I'd play it out. The Contagion + Shoal hand made me feel like if I got real lucky I could pull it off, and obviously drawing the second Contagion was that much better. I felt pretty in control, but knew I had to put the game away quickly at that point because Belcher can build up pretty fast for a second shot. I got really scared when it looked like he might have it, but luckily for me, he hadn't imprinted his second Mox.

Game 2, I wasn't completely sure how to board. I knew I needed both a fast start and my main deck kill spells to survive a turn 1 Empty, but I also needed the full 4 Chancellors and Traps. I believe my board ended up being:

-1 Dread Return
-2 Griselbrand
-2 Flayer
-1 Cabal Therapy
-2 Phantasmagorian
+8 Hate cards

I started the game with the 2 Chancellors, which took Donald completely by surprise, I think. It took him a while to come around to it, but the Lotus Petal was definitely the right play there. Once again, I got super lucky with him deciding to combo a turn too early, and was just able to take the game over with the Therapy and the Chancellors. I'll fully admit I had no right winning this game and didn't expect to. But thanks to a series of small misplays I was on my way to top 8 as the first seed.

There's also an on camera interview about the deck and the match around 50:30.


Top 8 - Quarterfinals vs Geoffrey with Punishing Jund

We do a ballot, and end up playing out the Quarters. Punishing Jund isn't an awful matchup for us, it's a fair deck and as long as we don't get Thoughtseized and Durressed into oblivion, I think it's pretty solid. Interestingly, this entire round, I didn't see a single Bridge from Below. But I luckily had a pretty fair density of recursion creatures that were able to take over the matches for me. It goes to show if your opponent Surgicals your bridges, the matchup can still be very winnable with the right dredges.

Game 1 is pretty quick, he gets me down to 11 with a combination of bolts and fast creatures, but I'm able to Dread Return Griselbrand, then Draw 7 to DR two Flayers for the kill.

Game 2 I had boarded pretty much the same as against the Blade decks. Chancellors keep him off his turn 1 DRS, but he's able to build up a force pretty quick. I dread turn flayer with both of us at 9, and have the Therapy to finish him off.

Top 4 we split for $600 each. I would have played RUG, but wasn't sure if it would be that or Omnitell, so a 50/50 coin flip wasn't worth 360 bucks to me.


Props-

-My buddy Greg Borish who Top 4'd with me playing Punishing Jund
-Leo for keeping me roasty toasty throughout the Swiss with that rice crispy treat
-The MTG Deals staff & judges for a great tournament. Everything was extremely well run and a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to playing in future opens at the Hangar.
-Vietnamese food after the event. Pho is pretty tasty when it's the first thing you've eaten all day.
-Everyone in the event for thinking Dredge was dead and not packing enough hate.

Slops-
-California, for being way too hot in the summertime. That building was like a furnace.

[Michael Keller]

Very well done!

I watched the video of your match with Belcher, and although there were misplays, it was nice to see Manaless do some damage. Very nice.

I also added the video to the Dredge primer!

(Thanks for the shout out!)

[P-E]

good job Birdbrains ^^
i think you have to be more focused to not miss some triggers.

what about miracle matchup , there are none in your area ?

[GoldenCid]

Wowowo, nice to see good results with the deck!!! Makes me feel great about giving it a new chance!!!

[Corto]

@Birdbrains
Congratz on your result.

I would like to discuss something you mentioned in your report though.

"I reveal a turn 0 Chancellor, and the first turn is land go for him and DDD for me. Turn 2, he plays another land, then plays a DRS for just G. I stop him, call a judge and the DRS gets countered"


I am not a judge, but that sounded weird to me so I asked on another board, and the reply of someone qualified confirmed my doubts.

How could the events lead to the DRS being countered ?
You are actually the controller of the trigger of the Chancellor, so if he pays 1 for DRS and both of you forget to put the trigger onto the stack, then the DRS is in play and it's your loss.
If you remind him of the trigger, as you should, he always has the opportunity to pay 1.

So I don't understand that a judge, who you called, ruled that DRS was countered.

[birdbrains]

Hi Corto,

The ruling was made and appealed, then upheld by the HJ of the event, Arthur Halavais, who's a fairly prominent West Coast L2 (maybe L3 I'm not 100%).

To help understand, here's a script of what happened:

Turn 0: Reveal Chancellor of the Annex, opponent acknowledges.

Turn 1: They play land, go. I draw and discard.

Turn 2: Opponent taps 1 land for Deathrite Shaman.

Opponent: Okay?

Me: Sure. (Opponent attempts to put it into play) That's countered on resolution.

Opponent: Judge!

The reason this works is because Chancellor's effect is a delayed trigger, not a static effect like Thalia or Thorns. Chancellor doesn't require them to pay the extra mana, it triggers if they don't. This lets them, for example, play Abrupt Decay for 2 mana and still resolve it.

You're correct that I'm responsible for my triggers, but I'm not required to play the game for my opponent and tell them that they need to pay 1 more mana. Saying "Sure" meant I acknowledged they were casting the DRS and that I had no response to him casting it. I properly announced the delayed trigger when DRS was countered on resolution.

Edit: also, for reference, the original floor judge Was Kevin Long (L2), the head judge was Arthur Halavais, and I am An L1 with a fair amount of Comp REL experience. I'm 100% sure this is the correct ruling.

[Corto]

So you mean that by having him pay one mana for his DRS, it implies that he let's it be countered ?

Because I think it should have gone otherwise, I'll go in the details :

Turn 2: Opponent taps 1 land for Deathrite Shaman.

Opponent: Okay?

Me: Sure. (Opponent attempts to put it into play) That's countered on resolution.

-> not it's not. You Say sure, but never announces that there is a trigger on the stack.


To make a comparison, if I attack with Emrakul. Declare him attacker, don't say anything, my opponent says ok, then asks if he takes 15 damages and I say yeah, we are on another phase, and I missed
the annihilator trigger. If I say "no : you have to sacrifice 6 permanents ", then the trigger was announced.

You say :" I properly announced the delayed trigger when it's countered on resolution ", but if it's not announced before when the trigger , well, triggers, then that trigger has been forgotten.


I know the judge ruled in your favor, and I'm inclined to respect what a level 2 says, but it goes against a lot of my understanding of the new rules about triggers and whatnot...

Anyway I'll pass this story around me, see if someone can explain it to me in a way I'd understand ( quite of a thick skull sometimes >_< :) ).

Still, happy for your result with dredge ! I love that deck :)

[birdbrains]

Your Emrakul example is a different beast entirely. You're going through several steps in a phase, and passing visual changes to game state on the way to missing your trigger. In that case, the Annihilator trigger has an effect on the Declare Blockers step, and you made it clear they already took damage.

With the Chancellor trigger, my opponent went from DRS being on the stack to assuming it resolved, not giving me a chance to put my trigger on the stack. I called my trigger at the first opportunity I had. Chancellor also differs from Emrakul in that it has a Default Action (compare to Tabernacle), that is, it says "Do X or Y happens." anytime there is a "missed" trigger with a default action, it's assumed the player did not take the action and the trigger resolves.

So I guess technically you're right, I missed my trigger, but so did my opponent. I also called my trigger at the first available opportunity, which means I did not violate the IPG. Yeah, it's a really gotcha situation, but it's a gotcha card. It did its job to a T, and was within the rules.


Edit: I wrote this pretty hurriedly on my phone while at work and now that I have a minute, let me clarify some things I feel might have gotten muddled.

In Magic there's something called "Default Actions" which are usually formatted as "Something happens, unless something else is done." So for example, on Chancellor, the part that says "Counter that spell unless its controller pays {1}," or on Tabernacle how creatures get "...Destroy this creature, unless you pay {1}." so basically, when the ability triggers the ability is going to do what it says. At the time it triggers, you can pay the costs to stop the default action from happening. If you miss the trigger, it can still be put on the stack, but with the caveat that it will resolve only the default action. So Chancellor will counter the spell and creatures will die because you don't get a second chance to pay 1.

Also the new missed trigger rules only require you to acknowledge the trigger when it has a visual impact on the board. Using the classic Pyreheart Wolf example, if I attack with Pyreheart Wolf and say nothing about the trigger, my opponenr can attempt to block with two creatures, as long as I say "Trigger" and point at the Wolf, it's assumed I didn't miss it, even if he's already moving two creatures onto it. If I let him block with two creatures, however, and say something like "Damage?" or make a life total change, now there's a visual difference to the board state and I've clearly let him block without acknowledging the trigger. In that case, it's missed.

So, looking specifically at him casting the DRS, let's walk through it.

Opponent: Deathrite Shaman? (Tapping 1 mana, putting it on the stack.)

At this point, Chancellor triggers, I'm not required to point out "Hey you need to pay an extra mana" or acknowledge it at this point. He is the Active Player, so when Chancellor triggers he has priority, and passes it by allowing this to happen:

Me: Sure (you can cast your Deathrite)

At this point, the Chancellor trigger has resolved. We both "passed priority" over the stack. So we move on. My opponent attempts to put DRS into play (a visual change), at which point I stop the game. I didn't have a chance to say anything between Chancellor resolving and him attempting to put it into play, so this is the first point I legally must acknowledge the trigger.

So the judge is called and the situation is explained. We look at the game state and the trigger was properly announced/acknowledged in an appropriate time frame. So we look at what the trigger was - a delayed trigger with a default action. The "fix" is that the trigger resolves and the default action happens. We are passed the point where he can pay the mana because it didn't happen when the trigger happened.

Keep in mind as well, this was at a Comp REL event, which is much different than a Regular REL event. You should have a firm grasp on the rules of the game, and are expected to. It's on the player for not knowing that it was a default action. The game state doesn't back up because you made a bad play, it will only back up if there is a fixable GRV, which there was not.

Emrakul was a bad example because it's not a delayed trigger OR a default action, it's simply a triggered ability. And in your example, you clearly advance past the point you can acknowledge it when you say "Take 15?" Delayed triggered abilities are when it says "At the beginning of the next..." or "When blah blah happens,..."

[Michael Keller]

Getting pumped to play Manaless again.

I'm trying out some lists that eschew lands entirely. I'm looking into playing Balustrade Spy as the primary win-condition. So far, I really like it. There's other lists that I'm tinkering with that use lands out of the board with Arbor to win with.

I think the meta is decent for Manaless right now. It really hasn't changed much (at least the hate) from late last year and into this year. We'll see how it rolls out.

[Thrasher]

I've been playing manaless,lately the classic build with Dryad Arbor. The only difference is Unmask, either as a sideboard or maindeck card. It works really well, it fights for the slots with contagion and sickening shoal, though. I've sent it to the sideboard due to the high number of deathrite shamans that are around, but so far i've liked Unmask's utilty a lot more than contagion/shoal. We need removal to fight those shamans, though, so i guess i'll have to play a generally weaker card that does the job against DRS.

What i like about unmask is that it "fills" the second turn, which is often a dredge-go. Sometimes it's not good to waste 2 turns starting the dredge engine and doing nothing. Unmask helps in that case, specially with cabal therapy (Unmask + therapy = extreme hand raping).
It's pretty cool in g2, too, against decks that you know are playing rip. If they mull to find it, unmask on turn 1 is quite a cool play, which has won me some games. Both miracles and d&t are just not fast enough to compete without rip. Even double time-walking them with unmask isn't a problem.

@Hollywood: I've seen a build with balustrade spy top8ing a 27 players tournament. No lands at all means conceding to every LotV, but saving sideboard slots for stuff like Faerie Macabre+Chancellor+Unmask, and maybe more removal and Mindbreak trap. I would still keep Griselbrand, though. Sometimes you just can't win in one turn,specially in g2, and the spy mills your entire deck. I like Griselbrand's p/t with lifelink, though, it's often useful.

[Final Fortune]

I don't like Balustrade Spy, RDW is not an argument against Griselbrand it is an argument for Griselbrand because he's a 7/7, Flying, Lifelink and doesn't automatically lose you the game whenever he's revealed off of a Show&Tell.

Unmask belongs some where in your 75 if you want to beat Turn 3 Tendrils decks, Chancellor of the Annex is a better answer to Deathrite Shaman than Contagian because it doesn't cost you two turns worth of Dredging and once you've started Dredging Deathrite Shaman is only a mere nuisance. Chancellor of the Annex is also an excellent SB card vs OmniTell.

I cut the 4th Shambling Shell for the 4th Griselbrand awhile ago in order to have MD "hate" vs Show&Tell decks, and I think the 2nd Flayer of the Hatebound is a mistake because you're not trying to combo-kill your opponent, you're ensursing that you wont lose to an Elephant Grass etc. I don't know what the lower bound is for Shambling Shell, but less than 2 is pushing it. One possible solution to the Shambling Shell issue is Serum Powder, where' theoretically any Shambling Shell would become a 7 card mulligan into a hand with a better Dredger while being a blank post-Dredge.

I don't like Dryad Arbor or any of the enchantment removal cards in the SB, Leyline of the Void doesn't exist and Rest in Peace is best answersed by enter scoop phase. I'd much rather dedicate my SB to cards that dramatically turn the tide vs a naturally predatory archetype like Storm, Mindbreak Trap is going to do so much more vs Storm as a 4 card investment than a 15 card investment is going to do vs Rest and Peace etc.

I typically think Probe and Unmask are what the deck wants because it provides it with consistent "2 drops," maybe Unamsk SB and Chancellor MD if Deathrite Shaman is everywhere. Otherwise Faerie Macabre is probably one of the best SB cards left you can play to turn around a match up vs Reanimator and such, and I think if you want to concentrate on just speed the Baubles are the only other card I would consider MDing where the old Bauble Dredge list was just amazingly solid at winning on turn 4 in a gold fish scenario.

Definitely play 4 Griselbrand tho', DRing that guy is GG.

[Mr. Froggy]

This is really awesome! I started playing Manaless on MTGO because it was so inexpensive to build, and before I knew it people started doing the same thing. ;)

I wish I was better at playing it though. :(

[Modus Pwnens]

I managed to top4 "LQ4 + GPT Chile" at Mundo Kinoene yesterday with this list:
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Shambling Shell
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal

Sideboard:
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Reverent Silence
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
4 Mindbreak Trap


Went 4-1 in the swiss, most of my opponents had no idea how to face this deck, lol.
It went like this:
R1: Reanimator 0-2 (T2 Elesh Norn both games)
R2: UR Delver 2-0
R3: Shardless BUG? 2-0
R4: Deathblade? 2-0
R5: Jund 2-1 (lost g1 because of a Scavenging Ooze, which surprised me, since i had just killed a DRS the turn before)
Top8: Burn 2-0
Top4: Split

It was almost a goldfish all the way up into a top4 split, I also got R$200,00 + Brazillian National Legacy invitation for my troubles.
We splitted the prize pool, but i guess that was a mistake, since there were only favorable matchs ups in the top4 anyway.

I also didn't had to use my SB in any game, guess i could have gone with a 15 Islands SB plan instead, lol.

Btw, there was another Manaless Dredge in top4. (Griselbrand + Arbor version)

[Mr. Froggy]

I managed to top4 "LQ4 + GPT Chile" at Mundo Kinoene yesterday with this list:
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Shambling Shell
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal

Sideboard:
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Reverent Silence
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
4 Mindbreak Trap


Went 4-1 in the swiss, most of my opponents had no idea how to face this deck, lol.
It went like this:
R1: Reanimator 0-2 (T2 Elesh Norn both games)
R2: UR Delver 2-0
R3: Shardless BUG? 2-0
R4: Deathblade? 2-0
R5: Jund 2-1 (lost g1 because of a Scavenging Ooze, which surprised me, since i had just killed a DRS the turn before)
Top8: Burn 2-0
Top4: Split

It was almost a goldfish all the way up into a top4 split, I also got R$200,00 + Brazillian National Legacy invitation for my troubles.
We splitted the prize pool, but i guess that was a mistake, since there were only favorable matchs ups in the top4 anyway.

I also didn't had to use my SB in any game, guess i could have gone with a 15 Islands SB plan instead, lol.

Btw, there was another Manaless Dredge in top4. (Griselbrand + Arbor version)

Manaless is making a come-back!

Also, I really like your maindeck, looks a lot like mine.

[Fatal]

Good suggestion for all ppl playing Balustrade Spy -> replace it with Griselbrand - it has better body, its also black (feed Ichorids) and you don't lose to crop rotation/bojuka bog after it resolves since you can control how many cards you want to dredge (dredging 7 cards mean 7 x 5-6 - enough to kill)

[Modus Pwnens]

Good suggestion for all ppl playing Balustrade Spy -> replace it with Griselbrand - it has better body, its also black (feed Ichorids) and you don't lose to crop rotation/bojuka bog after it resolves since you can control how many cards you want to dredge (dredging 7 cards mean 7 x 5-6 - enough to kill)

Lol, that is not the case. Both can do the same thing, and they win games just as easily. Why would you DR spy if your opponent can wipe your graveyard at instant speed, anyway?

I switched to Spy because i wanted more answers to Deathrite Shaman game1. (Chancellor + Contagion) If deathrite decks weren't so dominant in my meta, i would just go back to Grisel+Dryad anyway. (Dryad is better vs Thalia decks)

[Michael Keller]

Lol, that is not the case. Both can do the same thing, and they win games just as easily. Why would you DR spy if your opponent can wipe your graveyard at instant speed, anyway?

I switched to Spy because i wanted more answers to Deathrite Shaman game1. (Chancellor + Contagion) If deathrite decks weren't so dominant in my meta, i would just go back to Grisel+Dryad anyway. (Dryad is better vs Thalia decks)

With Phantasmagorian, Contagion and Street Wraith, how many more slots realistically should one commit to a single creature? You have a far better chance of beating a turn-one Deathrite Shaman than they have of sticking one without an answer.

I'm actually in the process of switching over to the Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast package, with a sideboard that compliments the Salvages with Riftstone Portal, Undiscovered Paradise and slight anti-hate. I'm finding that the Dryad Arbors, while still useful, are susceptible to removal - which is a really bad hindrance with their post-board utility. Salvage allows for the return of at least one other body from the graveyard, which in turn enables Dread Return like the Arbors do. You can't tap an Arbor for mana the turn it comes into play, much like you can't tap a Salvage the turn it comes into play either. The only difference here is that Reverent Silence can work with Arbors and Salvage can't. Arbors are still bodies for Nether Shadow shenanigans, but the Bloodghasts fill that gap nicely.

I do know that my previous sideboard ran two fetches and a basic land, but I'm not really sure that's necessary at this point. In a build that maxes out on anti-hate in the board I can see that utility. However, I'm looking at a more redundant approach out of the board that can happily fight through hate as a bonus - not as a commitment.

The biggest difference here is access to green mana for the sideboard. This is a hot topic between Manaless players because some feel as though it is unnecessary to jam cards into a sideboard to fight certain hate cards like Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void. I've been testing Portals incessantly and have found they're actually more useful than originally imagined. Not only do they help turn on your anti-hate, they also become more reliable in the first few turns when you're realistically going to be dredging once or twice and hitting one to turn on your Salvages as faux-Savannahs.

The point is you're playing your game as you normally would with the nice bonus of naturally turning over green mana with dredges as opposed to being forced to open with a combination of cards and the inability to mulligan.

I'm being really careful what I say here, because I don't want anyone to think this is the absolute way to go; I'm simply trying something different that I'm finding some really good results with. I think the shift may be worth looking at more closely.

[Thrasher]

I don't understand the purpose of Rifstone Portal. Is it supposed to help you casting your anti-hate? It would be useless against rip or leyline.

I don't mind Dryad being susceptible to removal, i often play it right before sacrificing it to something, so that my opponent doesn't get the priority before me. And by the way, most opponents use swords to plowshares on ichorids/shadows at the end of draw step, they usually won't have more. Still, the bloodghast package might have it pro's, i think i might try it again before dismissing it completely. It just seemed kinda slow, the first time i have tried it.

Has anyone tried cutting Contagion/Shoal? I'm currently trying a build that does it, and it's working surprisingly well. Chancellor of the Annex maindeck semms a more flexible answer to DRS, a dredge usually is enough to get phantasmagorian in the grave and ignore the shaman. I have a big event in less than a month, so i am trying to build something as flexible as possible, and i don't like contagion being dead against miracles,tendrils,Omnitell and ,well, most combo decks. I might find one or two slots for contagion in the sideboard.

About the sideboard: I have cut the single forest, i'm playing with 4 arbors maindeck + 2 misty rainforest sb. I just couldn't remove enought stuff to bring in 4 Unmask, 4 Silence, 2 misty rainforest and 1 forest. Even without the forest it's kinda hard to choose properly what to cut for g2, but i like having 8 answers to rip post board. 4 Seems just too random.

[Modus Pwnens]

With Phantasmagorian, Contagion and Street Wraith, how many more slots realistically should one commit to a single creature? You have a far better chance of beating a turn-one Deathrite Shaman than they have of sticking one without an answer.
I understand your point, but sometimes you just don't draw the godlike hand with Gorian and multiple wraiths.
Sometimes a Shaman can be hard to deal with, if he is coupled with tarmogoyf/Spellbomb/relic/Surgical/removal. A single shaman can nullify your dread returns, and eat your ichorids while your opponent uses AbruptDecay/Bolt/PunishingFire/Liliana to destroy our bridges, and possibly beat our face with goyf.
Its also hard to recover from a wiped graveyard if they have a shaman online.

Those kind of situations happens a lot over here, that is why I went the chancellor+contagion route.


I'm actually in the process of switching over to the Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast package, with a sideboard that compliments the Salvages with Riftstone Portal, Undiscovered Paradise and slight anti-hate. I'm finding that the Dryad Arbors, while still useful, are susceptible to removal - which is a really bad hindrance with their post-board utility. Salvage allows for the return of at least one other body from the graveyard, which in turn enables Dread Return like the Arbors do. You can't tap an Arbor for mana the turn it comes into play, much like you can't tap a Salvage the turn it comes into play either. The only difference here is that Reverent Silence can work with Arbors and Salvage can't. Arbors are still bodies for Nether Shadow shenanigans, but the Bloodghasts fill that gap nicely.

I do know that my previous sideboard ran two fetches and a basic land, but I'm not really sure that's necessary at this point. In a build that maxes out on anti-hate in the board I can see that utility. However, I'm looking at a more redundant approach out of the board that can happily fight through hate as a bonus - not as a commitment.

The biggest difference here is access to green mana for the sideboard. This is a hot topic between Manaless players because some feel as though it is unnecessary to jam cards into a sideboard to fight certain hate cards like Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void. I've been testing Portals incessantly and have found they're actually more useful than originally imagined. Not only do they help turn on your anti-hate, they also become more reliable in the first few turns when you're realistically going to be dredging once or twice and hitting one to turn on your Salvages as faux-Savannahs.

The point is you're playing your game as you normally would with the nice bonus of naturally turning over green mana with dredges as opposed to being forced to open with a combination of cards and the inability to mulligan.

I'm being really careful what I say here, because I don't want anyone to think this is the absolute way to go; I'm simply trying something different that I'm finding some really good results with. I think the shift may be worth looking at more closely.
Well, that is interesting!
I assume the antihate of choice would be Ancient Grudge/Ray of Revelation? Rip/Cage/Leyline would still be a problem, because they turn off your riftstone portal.

[Michael Keller]

Riftstone Portal is more of a gimmick effort at this point than anything else, however I still feel it has its merits in a deck that cannot afford to mulligan. The point behind it is that no matter what happens, if an opponent drops a Rest in Peace you can respond to the trigger by destroying it with a Ray of Revelation or something similar. If you take a close look at the format right now, we're seeing less and less of Show and Tell and more and more of fair aggro decks using Young Pyromancer and Shardless BUG. Pyromancer is obviously a relatively simple match-up, as we're all but devoid of any interaction, but BUG - while still popular - is in my mind on a downtrend. Greedy manabases like that cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars to assemble, which is why we're seeing decks packing Blood Moon knock them out on their way to Top Eight finishes.

It's no fluke Imperial Painter made it twice(!) as far as it did, which leads me to believe we could be in for a renaissance with this archetype once again. I don't want to jump the gun, but it certainly seems possible. That all aside, I am definitely on the fence at this point with Dryad Arbors main. I love them and think they're incredibly good, but I also think at the same time we could be utilizing those slots for more redundancy in Bloodghasts and Dakmor Salvages. Three Salvages with a potential cut of a single Shambling Shell brings the deck up to seventeen dredgers (4/4/4/3/2) - which I really like.

I do really think though that a deck sporting a set of Bloodghasts should at least somehow be abusing Undiscovered Paradise's return-to-hand effect. It's not only great for sideboarding, but it can double-up as card advantage with Bloodghasts. There's also a hidden, yet critical aspect behind its utility: upon bringing it back to one's hand it could benefit the Manaless player with the Draw/Dredge bringing you back up to eight cards faster.

To me, that seems really good. Again, let's stir the pot and get the creative juices flowing again.

[aahz]

Again, let's stir the pot and get the creative juices flowing again.
What about lands like Maze of Ith and Diamond Valley/Phyrexian Tower/High Market out of the board? Maze can deal with some problem creatures and Valley allows for timing shenanigans in zombie production and combat tricks vs. creature decks to protect Bridges. I've had opponents side out Wastelands, so functional lands out of the board seems promising, at least in theory. Thoughts?

I find Manaless Dredge fascinating, though I only play it rarely and mostly just for the lulz. Most of my technical Dredge experience comes from Vintage, which is why I prefer Manaless (over the LED version) in Legacy. Except in Legacy you don't have to brave a field where half the decks pack 4xLeyline of Void in the side, so actually playing manaless is viable. Don't take my list too seriously (which is hopefully pretty obvious, I mean, look at that ridiculous sideboard). However, I did manage to take it to the Top 8 of a recent event (see here for decklist (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=748035&viewfull=1#post748035)).

[ahg113]

So, something with Dakmor and Bloodghast...

Something like?


4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
3 Griselbrand
3 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
4 Chancellor of the Annex
SB: 3 Forest
SB: 4 Reverent Silence
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 Dryad Arbor


Anything with lands involves Griz instead of Balustrade Spy. I like it in principle, but I get jammed, I'd like to add another Flayer, couldn't find space at all for Undiscovered Paradise nor Riftstone Portal. U. Paradise doesn't make sense if it ends up in the yard. Riftstone Portal just seems a little gimmicky. Maybe in the SB, replace Forest, keep Arbor?

Mindbreak Trap vs. Nature's Claim is a Metagame call in my opinion.

[Michael Keller]

Anything with lands involves Griz instead of Balustrade Spy. I like it in principle, but I get jammed, I'd like to add another Flayer, couldn't find space at all for Undiscovered Paradise nor Riftstone Portal. U. Paradise doesn't make sense if it ends up in the yard.

Right, but by that logic Verdant Catacombs, Forest, Contagion, Reverent Silence and Nature's Claims don't make any sense when they hit the yard either. I'm weighing in-hand utility.

I like the list but am currently not 100% sold on Chancellor main.

[ahg113]

Right, but by that logic Verdant Catacombs, Forest, Contagion, Reverent Silence and Nature's Claims don't make any sense when they hit the yard either. I'm weighing in-hand utility.

I like the list but am currently not 100% sold on Chancellor main.

Yes and no, hitting a land with Spy is a lot worst than actually drawing cards with Griz or your draw step. The deck doesn't mulligan, so we're all used to sticking with the opening seven adn going from there, maybe unless it's four Nacros and three Ickys.

Have a list that makes sense, feel free to PM so not to put it on blast, I'll test it, cause I want it to work.

[Michael Keller]

Yes and no, hitting a land with Spy is a lot worst than actually drawing cards with Griz or your draw step. The deck doesn't mulligan, so we're all used to sticking with the opening seven adn going from there, maybe unless it's four Nacros and three Ickys.

Have a list that makes sense, feel free to PM so not to put it on blast, I'll test it, cause I want it to work.

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not talking about Spy lists, I'm referring to non-Spy lists. I've got a list I'm going to play next week in a big tournament, I'll let you guys know how it goes.

[Modus Pwnens]

A few things to take note:
-Surgical Extraction can 7 for 1 us, if they hit Dakmor Salvage
-Deathrite Shaman can also eat our Dakmors, turning off Bloodghasts
-I would add another DR if you are going the Chancellor route, sometimes they can win games on their own. (If you happen to not find a Grisel to do the job)
-Dakmor + Riftstone portal/Undiscovered Paradise + Ray of Revelation seems to be a more viable SB option than the full Reverent Silence Package(11 Slots).

Some random, and certainly bad, ideas:
Edge of Autumn could be used to recurr dead bloodghasts with the same land, and can take advantage of Dakmor Salvage to act as a pseudo-StreetWraith, its probably too narrow, tho.
Petrified Field could be used in SB in conjunction with Utility Lands like Bojuka Bog, etc


Edit:
This MD might work better with Bloodghasts, and it also frees up some SB slots:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Griselbrand
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
4 Dryad Arbor

[ahg113]

This MD might work better with Bloodghasts, and it also frees up some SB slots:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Griselbrand
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
4 Dryad Arbor

Good catch on the Salvage S.E interaction. That's all sorts of frown town.

The only thing I'm not wild about, is the lack of either removal or Chancellor. I feel as though either or should be in the deck for game 1, way too many DRS running around to just hope not to play against one. Make sense or am I just not ballsy enough?

Otherwise I like this deck config. What are you thinking for a SB?

[dunk]

It's no fluke Imperial Painter made it twice(!) as far as it did, which leads me to believe we could be in for a renaissance with this archetype once again. I don't want to jump the gun, but it certainly seems possible.

I definitely agree, the deck seems to be well positioned right now. Sure, Deathrite is everywhere, but the deck can handle a deathrite pretty well. There's usually too much to remove ;) The deck is probably better than Dredge with lands in the current metagame. Also, Phantasmagorian is such a beast. I look forward to see the deck in a SCG or similar t8 soon!

[Final Fortune]

Riftstone Portal is more of a gimmick effort at this point than anything else, however I still feel it has its merits in a deck that cannot afford to mulligan. The point behind it is that no matter what happens, if an opponent drops a Rest in Peace you can respond to the trigger by destroying it with a Ray of Revelation or something similar. If you take a close look at the format right now, we're seeing less and less of Show and Tell and more and more of fair aggro decks using Young Pyromancer and Shardless BUG. Pyromancer is obviously a relatively simple match-up, as we're all but devoid of any interaction, but BUG - while still popular - is in my mind on a downtrend. Greedy manabases like that cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars to assemble, which is why we're seeing decks packing Blood Moon knock them out on their way to Top Eight finishes.

It's no fluke Imperial Painter made it twice(!) as far as it did, which leads me to believe we could be in for a renaissance with this archetype once again. I don't want to jump the gun, but it certainly seems possible. That all aside, I am definitely on the fence at this point with Dryad Arbors main. I love them and think they're incredibly good, but I also think at the same time we could be utilizing those slots for more redundancy in Bloodghasts and Dakmor Salvages. Three Salvages with a potential cut of a single Shambling Shell brings the deck up to seventeen dredgers (4/4/4/3/2) - which I really like.

I do really think though that a deck sporting a set of Bloodghasts should at least somehow be abusing Undiscovered Paradise's return-to-hand effect. It's not only great for sideboarding, but it can double-up as card advantage with Bloodghasts. There's also a hidden, yet critical aspect behind its utility: upon bringing it back to one's hand it could benefit the Manaless player with the Draw/Dredge bringing you back up to eight cards faster.

To me, that seems really good. Again, let's stir the pot and get the creative juices flowing again.

I've tried Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghasts in the past, I don't think Dredge 2 or returning an extra creature(s) is any more effective than just playing a Bauble list where in reality all you're really doing is trying to speed up the number of bodies you can put on the board for Dread Return, Griselbrand and GG. It does have the advantage of being more resilient to certain kinds of hate, but Tormod's Crypt seems to be a rarity these days. I think that kind of density is more effective as a SBing plan for when you do see one shot hate.

Probe is like insanely good, why do you never play that card?

[Michael Keller]

I've tried Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghasts in the past, I don't think Dredge 2 or returning an extra creature(s) is any more effective than just playing a Bauble list where in reality all you're really doing is trying to speed up the number of bodies you can put on the board for Dread Return, Griselbrand and GG. It does have the advantage of being more resilient to certain kinds of hate, but Tormod's Crypt seems to be a rarity these days. I think that kind of density is more effective as a SBing plan for when you do see one shot hate.

Probe is like insanely good, why do you never play that card?

Just picked up my Jap foil set...I'm definitely trying it out.

[sconnell]

Probe is like insanely good, why do you never play that card?

Probe is amazing when it's good, but it has some significant downsides. It's horrible if it gets counterspelled (you end up going -1 hand size and can't discard.) Playing Probe means you're not playing another dredger/utility card in that slot.

[Michael Keller]

I really think Gitaxian Probe is highly underrated in this deck. I used to play it in the deck's competitive infancy, and it was good when it worked. The issue I have with it is that for so many of the upsides to it, there are still the downsides of it being a completely useless card outside of your opening hand. I'm not mocking its utility, because I know how powerful it is, it's just that some cards when they cannot possibly be used from your hand still find corner-case utility, which I really like.

Take for example Bloodghasts. An earlier poster discussed how Bloodghasts would become effectively useless if someone decided to Surgical Extraction Dakmor Salvages from your deck. Bloodghasts can still be exiled to satisfy Ichorid in that instance. Additionally, if we were to go the Balustrade Spy route (which I like, too) and you choose to run a main-deck Blightsteel Colossus, you get some game against the stock-now-rising in Painter-Grindstone combo. It even gives you some more game against Show and Tell variants.

Even if you chose to run Chancellor of the Annex, he's still a decent Dread Return target.

Probe, on the other hand, is strictly only good from the opening hand and nowhere else. Every other card in the deck has at least some sort of utility outside of its natural use save for maybe Contagion, which is useless aside from your opening hand (but critical against Shaman).

Again, I see the upside of Probe and I'll give it a shot again. I just don't know if in the wide array of tools this deck uses that it's head and shoulders above other options.

[sconnell]

Again, I see the upside of Probe and I'll give it a shot again. I just don't know if in the wide array of tools this deck uses that it's head and shoulders above other options.

You may want to try testing 1 or 2. This decreases the chance of drawing multiples in counterspell matchups where you don't really want to see the card, and also decreases the chance of a crucial early dredge hitting multiple Probes instead of cards that actually do stuff in the graveyard. Last time I played manaless in a tournament, I played 1 Probe I believe.

Perhaps there's an optimal number of "does nothing in GY" slots in the deck which can be divided between Probes/Contagion/Shoal/Unmask etc.

[ahg113]

You may want to try testing 1 or 2. This decreases the chance of drawing multiples in counterspell matchups where you don't really want to see the card, and also decreases the chance of a crucial early dredge hitting multiple Probes instead of cards that actually do stuff in the graveyard. Last time I played manaless in a tournament, I played 1 Probe I believe.

Perhaps there's an optimal number of "does nothing in GY" slots in the deck which can be divided between Probes/Contagion/Shoal/Unmask etc.

There's an aspect of luck with every opening hand. A lil living the dream, removal, couple dredgers, an arbor maybe, a wraith and a phant. More or less what you draw is what you have. My realized knock on G.Probe vs. removal, I will occasionally draw a card trying to luck sac to removal. I will never draw a card looking for probe. That's my reason not to play it.

[RThomas-]

I really think Gitaxian Probe is highly underrated in this deck. I used to play it in the deck's competitive infancy, and it was good when it worked. The issue I have with it is that for so many of the upsides to it, there are still the downsides of it being a completely useless card outside of your opening hand. I'm not mocking its utility, because I know how powerful it is, it's just that some cards when they cannot possibly be used from your hand still find corner-case utility, which I really like.


You may want to try testing 1 or 2. This decreases the chance of drawing multiples in counterspell matchups where you don't really want to see the card, and also decreases the chance of a crucial early dredge hitting multiple Probes instead of cards that actually do stuff in the graveyard. Last time I played manaless in a tournament, I played 1 Probe I believe.

This ten times. When I tried new things with the Spy list played before, I started with four Probe and nearly always cut to zero for a new card. I believe this was a mistake. I'm usually quite glad to see this card in my hand regardless of the opponent's deck. While it might be countered on turn two and leave you without an ability to discard a dredger into your empty graveyard, such a parlay is unlikely. If your plan is full-speed ahead and you find yourself only stymied by a counter on Probe, perhaps casting it was a good plan in itself, since you should seek to clear the way for Dread Return in such a match anyway. If the argument against Probe is that it is not as good as removal, you could say that an extra dredge is more speed towards your combo finish, but such a thing is a more theoretical argument and probably not expected to be settled here. Perhaps if one kept track of games in which Deathrite Shaman landed and you cast either Probe or a removal spell (or play both ends out) and see which one comes up the winner, we'll know what's best.

[TableTopMagic]

I just wanted to add my opinion on the on the Dakmor Salvage vs Surgical Extraction.

Our deck is pretty out there. It is by far on the fringe side of Legacy. Manaless Dredge with Drakmor Salvage is even on the other side of the tracks as far as manaless goes. (In recent years) Even LED Dredge is on the fringe right now. I can't quote numbers, but at any given SCG I would guess that 5-25% have ever played against Manaless Dredge. Only a percentage of that know the deck well enough to know what are optimal plays an what are not. Mixing those numbers with the plethora of assorted random cards that are getting dumped into our grave each turn. There are a lot of really tempting cards in our grave that would at least "look" like much better targets than a land that comes into play tapped that Dredges for two. If I didn't know the deck I would see a dozen better looking targets I would pick over that. Maybe they would catch on if it goes into game three. That probably would only happen if Riftstone Portal rained colored mana into your other board tech.

I think for now the Dakmor Salvage and Riftstone Portal tech sounds like a breath of fresh air for this build. Only if I could find room for Chancellor of the Annex with all of this without sacrificing my removal spells... :(

[ahg113]

I think for now the Dakmor Salvage and Riftstone Portal tech sounds like a breath of fresh air for this build. Only if I could find room for Chancellor of the Annex with all of this without sacrificing my removal spells... :(

+1

I prefer Chancellor, but the way to make it work is just trim everywhere else, not ideal. The deck is redundant, so luck isn't all that important for the actual game. It does seem though that we are asking to be lucky with our opening hands.

[bruizar]

I would consider Horizon Canopy either alongside or without Riftstone Portal.

[Michael Keller]

I would consider Horizon Canopy either alongside or without Riftstone Portal.

The idea is to play off the strengths of your graveyard and not your opening hand when it comes to Portal. It's easier to dredge into a Portal and turn on your Salvages (which already exist for Bloodghast) than it would be to simply open-hand one without mulling.

Granted, this is all in its infancy of testing, but so far I like it. I'm playing in a big tournament this weekend and I'll be sure to let you guys know how that goes.

[GoldenCid]

I managed to top4 "LQ4 + GPT Chile" at Mundo Kinoene yesterday with this list:
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Shambling Shell
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal

Sideboard:
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Reverent Silence
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
4 Mindbreak Trap




This list looks great!!! What can you tell us about chancellor MD? Did it worth?? And congratz!!!

[Final Fortune]

Probe is amazing when it's good, but it has some significant downsides. It's horrible if it gets counterspelled (you end up going -1 hand size and can't discard.) Playing Probe means you're not playing another dredger/utility card in that slot.

I rarely find that to be the case, you'd have to Dredge X on your 2nd turn, not mill 1 of your twenty Dredgers or Phantasmagorian and then be stupid enough to cycle Gitaxian Probe instead of DDDing your only Dredger in hand. I mean that's just a combination of bad luck and stupidity.

There are no other Dredger's to put in that slot, barring Moss Dog, and we're already cutting Shambling Shells as it is. As far as other utility spells, you have a SB for utility spells, and unrestricted Time Walk + free Peek is pretty high up there on utility.

I'm pretty sure Ariston's 8 Bauble list at the beginning of the thread was objectively the fastest, stock list and Gitaian Probe is strictly better than a Bauble now. The Dakmor Salvage/Bloodghast list was slower than the Bauble list, but obviously it was less dependent on your starting hand and more resilient to SB hate - Tormod's Crypt - which are rarely played today. Pre-Deathrite Shaman, I found concentrating on speed game 1 and resiliency game 2 was the best overall strategy, where speed helped Goldfish T4 combo decks like High Tide, Elves etc. or baited Counter Spells for Dread Return, while resiliency reduced the efficacy of Tormod's Crypt and Surgical Extraction where speed game 2 was less effective because you'd either have no Dredgers to accelerate or you'd lose a set of Ichorids, Bridges from Below or Dread Returns and need to combine as many odd kill conditions as possible in order to generate a lethal board presence. I think it's a mistake to play less than 4 Dakmor Salvage if you're playing 4 Bloodghast, because naturally playing Dakmor Salvage from your hand signifcantly increases your gold fish; it is effectively a free spell, a dredger and counters Thalia.

The only thing that caused me to rethink this strategy was Combo, Deathrite Shaman and Relic of Progenitus, where disruption vs opponents is better than acceleration because Chancellor of the Annex "Time Walked" the opponent into your first turn or delayed Deathrite Shaman and Relic of Progenitus from hard locking, Chancellor of the Annex was a body for Golgari Grave Troll and Nether Shadow and a counter vs Omnitell. Furthermore Unmask, provided Combo hasn't gold fished us on either turn 1 or turn 2, sets Storm further back than Bauble speeds Dredge up, clears Counter Spells for Dread Return or discards a critical combo piece in your hand. So I turned from Baubles to MD Chancellor of the Annex and Unamsk and kept SB Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast because I had no idea what to SB. Then I realized the culmination of Chancellor of the Annex, Unmask and either Mindbreak Trap or Faerie Macabre made Storm and Reanimator strategies winnable, Sickening Shoal was a better sub for Unmask vs Deathrite Shaman and that Chancellor of the Annex and Unmask were still serviceable vs blue decks that didnt play Deathrite Shaman. so I dedicated my SB vs combo and Deathrite Shaman with 4 Mindbreak Trap, 4 Faerie Macabre, 1 Blightsteel Colossus, 4 Contagion, 1 Sickening Shoal (Contagion over Sickening Shoal because Elves is now a thing) and 1 Shambling Shell (always SB out Flayer of the Hatebound for Shambling Shoal for consistency vs any deck not playing Elephant Grass etc.) and currently believe it's the most optimal list in a competitive meta, otherwise I'd just go for pure speed and resiliency

I think people are getting "caught up" in being holistic with Dredge and with every card being "functional" from your graveyard, every Manaless Dredge deck could play 8 Kobolds and still win against all of their favorable match ups game 1 the majority of the time (And yes, I've tried it), it's the cards that give you a chance to win your unfavorable match ups vs; Goblin Charbelcher, Storm, High Tide, Painter's Servant, Hermit Druid, Reanimator, Show&Tell, Elves and BUG that you need to concentrate on. I'd love to be able to just play Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast in an inbred, blue meta, but the fact of the matter is that Deathrite Shaman is ubiquitous and there are decks that are more unfair than us.

I realize this seems contradictory to my statements on Gitaxian Probe, but I think what I've finally realized is that disruption is better than acceleration in the sense that MDing Chancellor of the Void and Unmask save SB space for all of the potential hate vs all of the potential combo decks in the metagame and having answers vs Deathrite Shaman MD is a practical necessity. Unmask is also strictly worse than Contagion vs any deck that plays Deathrite Shaman, and I'd prefer to have 16 answers to Deathrite Shaman post-board and a 2 4 1 vs Elves and Goblins otherwise.

I don't see the point of Rifstone Portal, why are you playing a land that doesn't cast your answers in order to make your other lands that don't cast your answers able to cast your answers once its in your graveyard, when all of the answers that you'd want to cast in your deck with at least 8 lands that don't cast any answers in your deck are strictly vs Leyline of the Void and Rifstone Portal, which both invalidate Rifstone Portal altogether and leaves you with your 8 lands that aren't able to cast your answers and your answers that you aren't able to cast in hand? Confused yet? That's because it's a bad idea.

Basically, people need to stop playing shit just to play shit in Dredge, like Balustrade Spy which requires you to always keep Flayer of the Hatebound in your MD or even play Flayer of the Hatebound at all (Some one made a really good argument to me that Angel of Despair addresses all of the same problems as Flayer of the Hatebound and actually has added functionality with Ichorid, Unmask, Contagion and Show&Tell), and actually address the metagame with their MD and SB. And when I say address the metagame with their SB, I don't mean playing Forests and casting Nature's Claim in a losing battle vs Miracle, I mean playing cards that actually give you a chance of winning vs difficult match ups instead of trying to win vs the unwinnable match ups with a SB full of cards for just 1 possible deck.

The only thing that could get me to change my deck is if Thalia.dec reappears and Storm gets pushed out of the metagame, at that point I'd be willing to reconsider MD Dryad Arbor, SB Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast and playing less anti combo specific cards like Unmask. Until that day, I think I'm ok with playing a slightly "unfocused" deck vs RUG and Snapcaster decks packing Surgical Extraction post-board as long as Chancellor of the Annex and Unmask still provide some utility and my threat density is still enough to win. If your meta is skewed towards one end or the other, obviously you have to make your own call. I could see doing stuff like playing Contagion over Unmask MD, cutting Faerie Macabre under the assumption you wouldn't play in a metagame conducive to Reanimator (which I think is kind of odd considering you're also playing a graveyard deck) cutting the Blightsteel Colossus assumming you'd never see High Tide or Painters Servant, cutting the Sickening Shoal because it's kind of redundant or cutting the Shambling Shell because you're a Timmy that likes to Flay people but unless you actually have 7 to 8 slots for the full Darkmor Salvage and Bloodghast package to improve your RUG match up, I don't know what else you'd actually play in those slots other than maybe Gitaxian Probe which would be an odd SB card. Maybe extra Angel of Despair just to give Show&Tell the finger? Surgical Extraction to double down on Reanimator?

[ykpon]

If somebody still plays Angel of Despair over Flayer here (check page 44 if you wonder what's the reason to do so) then this Theros card is strictly better:

Ashen Rider (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145534&stc=1&d=1378678240)
Creature - Archon
4WWBB
5/5
Flying
When Ashen Rider enters the battlefield or dies, exile target permanent

[blindspotxxx]

Holy Moly! Manaless Dredge in the top 8 of SCG!!!

[TableTopMagic]

Holy Moly! Manaless Dredge in the top 8 of SCG!!!

Yes and I love it!
I just got done playing Manaless at my LGS, then I get home to see it on SCG. :P

BTW Reid doesn't look amused right now... :P

Edit..
PS, It kinda sounds like the announcers are a little biased against the deck btw... :mad:

[Michael Keller]

Holy Moly! Manaless Dredge in the top 8 of SCG!!!

Not just any Manaless Dredge in the Top 8: Manaless Dredge with three...yes, three...Cabal Therapies.

Ugh. This is why I fucking can't stand the SCG Open Series and refuse to play in them anymore. Not only has the deck been re-exposed, it's been re-exposed with with a suboptimal variation. I mean, kudos for the placing but seriously that's just ridiculous.

And Leylines in the sideboard? Am I missing something, or is it acceptable somehow to put yourself at a disadvantage to start the game off? If you're afraid of Storm, play the Traps like you did. But that's just terrible, I'm sorry.

[Mr. Froggy]

I have a feeling people have started playing Manaless again after they've seen me on MTGO playing the deck ;)

I swear, I built the deck because it was crazy inexpensive a couple weeks ago (I was going to build LEDless instead), and people started watching my games and BAM! :P

Anywho, I'd like to think it's because of me :P

On a more serious note, SCG Open commentators are the worst... -_-

[TableTopMagic]

Not just any Manaless Dredge in the Top 8: Manaless Dredge with three...yes, three...Cabal Therapies.

Ugh. This is why I fucking can't stand the SCG Open Series and refuse to play in them anymore. Not only has the deck been re-exposed, it's been re-exposed with with a suboptimal variation. I mean, kudos for the placing but seriously that's just ridiculous.

And Leylines in the sideboard? Am I missing something, or is it acceptable somehow to put yourself at a disadvantage to start the game off? If you're afraid of Storm, play the Traps like you did. But that's just terrible, I'm sorry.

I was planning on playing this deck at a SCG next month, but I doubt I will unless the Gravehate cools down. Well burn here I come... lol


I have a feeling people have started playing Manaless again after they've seen me on MTGO playing the deck ;)

I swear, I built the deck because it was crazy inexpensive a couple weeks ago (I was going to build LEDless instead), and people started watching my games and BAM! :P

Anywho, I'd like to think it's because of me :P

On a more serious note, SCG Open commentators are the worst... -_-
Idk
Theo looked like he knew the deck very well. I somewhat doubt he started playing it in the last few weeks.

[GoldenCid]

Holy Moly! Manaless Dredge in the top 8 of SCG!!!

Where's decklist???

[TableTopMagic]

Where's decklist???

Ask and you shall receive.


Creatures (45)

4 Balustrade Spy
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
Spells (15)

4 Bridge from Below
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Contagion
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Sickening Shoal
1 Cabal Therapy

[(nameless one)]

Where's decklist???

Ask and you shall receive (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58918)

[Final Fortune]

Not just any Manaless Dredge in the Top 8: Manaless Dredge with three...yes, three...Cabal Therapies.

Ugh. This is why I fucking can't stand the SCG Open Series and refuse to play in them anymore. Not only has the deck been re-exposed, it's been re-exposed with with a suboptimal variation. I mean, kudos for the placing but seriously that's just ridiculous.

And Leylines in the sideboard? Am I missing something, or is it acceptable somehow to put yourself at a disadvantage to start the game off? If you're afraid of Storm, play the Traps like you did. But that's just terrible, I'm sorry.

Not sure Leyline is that bad, it looks like a "free win" vs Ad Nauseam decks that don't SB against it, if they didn't SB in Empty the Warrens (and why would they vs Dredge) or if they didn't SB in bounce (again why would they vs Dredge) then some opponent's just enter scoop phase. It looks like a cheap attempt at a knock out punch vs a deck that he probably needs to steal at least 1 game from after dropping the first. I can see the merrit of the card because it also pretty much fucks Belcher if they didn't end up on Empty the Warrens or Burning Wish, and considering he isn't playing Unmask anywhere in his 75 he probably has to rely on surprise tactics to pick up game 2.

Yeah, to hell with Balustrade Spy and 3 Cabal Therapy tho', people need to stop playing that stupid shit.

Edit: I also discovered the best argument ever for Sickening Shoal over Contagion last night, after miss Sbing I had a Sickening Shoal in my deck and managed to kill an Elesh Norn by throwing a Phantasmagorian at it and winning on the next turn, I about died laughing. Ironically I realized Griselbrand, Phantasmagorian and Angel of Despair all work with it, so I think it might actually be a viable surprise weapon considering you're running it for Shaman and Ooze anyway.

[Final Fortune]

If somebody still plays Angel of Despair over Flayer here (check page 44 if you wonder what's the reason to do so) then this Theros card is strictly better:

Ashen Rider (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145534&stc=1&d=1378678240)
Creature - Archon
4WWBB
5/5
Flying
When Ashen Rider enters the battlefield or dies, exile target permanent

I pretty much agree with the arguments on page 44, I've never lost a game because I had Angel of Despair over Flayer of the Hatebound and I've actually won games because I had Angel after discarding it to Unmask, Sickening Shoal or playing it off a Show&Tell etc.

[blindspotxxx]

Not just any Manaless Dredge in the Top 8: Manaless Dredge with three...yes, three...Cabal Therapies.

Ugh. This is why I fucking can't stand the SCG Open Series and refuse to play in them anymore. Not only has the deck been re-exposed, it's been re-exposed with with a suboptimal variation. I mean, kudos for the placing but seriously that's just ridiculous.

And Leylines in the sideboard? Am I missing something, or is it acceptable somehow to put yourself at a disadvantage to start the game off? If you're afraid of Storm, play the Traps like you did. But that's just terrible, I'm sorry.

The player actually said that he regretted not putting in the 4th Cabal Therapy. I can see cutting a Chancellor or a Shambling Shell for it.


Not sure Leyline is that bad, it looks like a "free win" vs Ad Nauseam decks that don't SB against it, if they didn't SB in Empty the Warrens (and why would they vs Dredge) or if they didn't SB in bounce (again why would they vs Dredge) then some opponent's just enter scoop phase. It looks like a cheap attempt at a knock out punch vs a deck that he probably needs to steal at least 1 game from after dropping the first. I can see the merrit of the card because it also pretty much fucks Belcher if they didn't end up on Empty the Warrens or Burning Wish, and considering he isn't playing Unmask anywhere in his 75 he probably has to rely on surprise tactics to pick up game 2.

Yeah, to hell with Balustrade Spy and 3 Cabal Therapy tho', people need to stop playing that stupid shit.

Edit: I also discovered the best argument ever for Sickening Shoal over Contagion last night, after miss Sbing I had a Sickening Shoal in my deck and managed to kill an Elesh Norn by throwing a Phantasmagorian at it and winning on the next turn, I about died laughing. Ironically I realized Griselbrand, Phantasmagorian and Angel of Despair all work with it, so I think it might actually be a viable surprise weapon considering you're running it for Shaman and Ooze anyway.

Ballustrade is actually great as you don't need to pay anything to flip your deck. That 7 Life can mean life or death :)

[Ramanas]

Ballustrade is actually great as you don't need to pay anything to flip your deck. That 7 Life can mean life or death :)

Ballustrade forces you to run no lands for max efficiency, which hurts your ability to fight against hate cards.

[ahg113]

So I played Manaless at Philly yesterday to a tune of 5-4. First lost was to Goblins by Jim Davis... so that's not as bad I guess. Then I lost to a U/W/R Delver/Geist deck... Smart opponent, bad flips, such is life. I punted by not desideboarding correctly against a winnable Infi-Life Combo Pod/Rector/Nightmare deck, and I lost to ANT. Losing to ANT didn't hurt my feelings, all the others could have been wins.

I won against two D&T decks, Shardless BUG, U/W/R Delver/Geist, and RUG.

My List-

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Griselbrand
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
4 Dryad Arbor
SB: 2 Reverent Silence
SB: 4 Chancellor of the Annex
SB: 3 Riftstone Portal
SB: 3 Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 Nature's Claim


I'm a fan of the Ghasts, and of Salvage. More of my games were won by creature damage making huge swaths of zombies and beating down with tokens and Ickys, Shadows and Ghast. When unmolested, I'd combo kill, but in SB games Flayer usually left and that meant beats. I don't think the Reverent Silences are necessary, and at times I did miss removal spells- thinking -2 R.Silences, -1 Riftstone Portal, +3 Shoals (corner cases of killing Elesh, Griz, Archon). Chancellors usually came in, Arbors sometimes left, got to use Nature's Claim (but didn't win game), Ray of Revelation got a little play, better as a threat than anything else. Riftstone was good, one in yard, one in hand, best of both worlds.

[Final Fortune]

The player actually said that he regretted not putting in the 4th Cabal Therapy. I can see cutting a Chancellor or a Shambling Shell for it.



Ballustrade is actually great as you don't need to pay anything to flip your deck. That 7 Life can mean life or death :)

Ballustrade is a gold fish card that doesn't take into consideration what happens when the opponent Surgical Extractions your Narcomoebas, Bridges from Below or Cabal Therapys on the combos ability to go off, where Griselbrand is always Griselbrand, a 7/7 Flying, Life Link that at the very least will either establish a board presence, Dredge X cards or draw a new hand no matter what the opponent has done to your deck or graveyard and unlike Ballustrade Spry, Griselbrand is actually good off of an opponent's Show&Tell.

Not to mention, Ballustrade Spy limits your SBing options, instead of SBing out any 8 cards, 4 of those 8 cards have to be Ballustrade Spy and Flayer of the Hatebound - and Flayer of the Hatebound is strictly worse than Angel of Despair or now Ashen Rider -

About the only, conceivable reason to play Ballustrade Spy is if you want to save 40$ on 3 Griselbrands and an Angel of Despair and you plan to SB out your Dread Return targets for Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghasts or lands + answers etc. and rely on only Golgari Grave Troll, Chancellor of the Annex or Phantasmagorian beat down off Dread Return.

That combo package is about as clearly functional in the deck as it is clearly worse IMO.

[ahg113]

Ballustrade is a gold fish card that doesn't take into consideration what happens when the opponent Surgical Extractions your Narcomoebas, Bridges from Below or Cabal Therapys on the combos ability to go off, where Griselbrand is always Griselbrand, a 7/7 Flying, Life Link that at the very least will either establish a board presence, Dredge X cards or draw a new hand no matter what the opponent has done to your deck or graveyard and unlike Ballustrade Spry, Griselbrand is actually good off of an opponent's Show&Tell.

Not to mention, Ballustrade Spy limits your SBing options, instead of SBing out any 8 cards, 4 of those 8 cards have to be Ballustrade Spy and Flayer of the Hatebound - and Flayer of the Hatebound is strictly worse than Angel of Despair or now Ashen Rider -

About the only, conceivable reason to play Ballustrade Spy is if you want to save 40$ on 3 Griselbrands and an Angel of Despair and you plan to SB out your Dread Return targets for Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghasts or lands + answers etc. and rely on only Golgari Grave Troll, Chancellor of the Annex or Phantasmagorian beat down off Dread Return.

That combo package is about as clearly functional in the deck as it is clearly worse IMO.

The guy played against my buddy whom I also played piloting Shardless BUG, but Theo was doing something correct to top 8.

Says the guy who placed 81st

[Final Fortune]

The guy played against my buddy whom I also played piloting Shardless BUG, but Theo was doing something correct to top 8.

Says the guy who placed 81st

I'm sure it's functional, I just think it's clearly worse.

[sconnell]

Ballustrade is a gold fish card...

Perhaps Balustrade manaless dredge is to Griselbrand manaless bridge what Belcher is to other storm decks?

There's a trade-off between raw power and speed on the one hand, and flexibility and resilience on the other. The two different deck styles appeal to different players, but that doesn't mean one is clearly worse.

[Modus Pwnens]

I will try to argument the best I can, but keep in mind that english isn't my native language. I hope it's understandable.

I Don't think you guys have play-tested with Balustrade Spy at all, he is way more resilient than you are giving him credit.

First of, he is not an "All in" card. You can just Dread Return a Golgari Thug to give yourself multiple turns if needed, and kill with Zombies + Ichorids.
Second, Final Fortune said something about Spy being bad vs Triple Surgical Extraction, I mean, why would you even DR him before discarding his entire hand with Therapies? And how often do you face a Triple S.E. hand? Would Griselbrand even win that game?
Third, you don't need a Dredger in the yard to combo with spy, so he might be better after a Graveyard wipe or against multiple extractions on your dredgers.
And lastly, he is a good DR target even if you are low on health, this is relevant if you are facing Delver, Burn, Goblins, etc

I have to admit though, he does limit your Sideboard options, and you must side him out everytime you need your "Reverent Silence package"
I don't think he is better than griselbrand, but he is not worse either.

Hope its not too bad to read...

[HammafistRoob]

Ugh. This is why I fucking can't stand the SCG Open Series and refuse to play in them anymore. Not only has the deck been re-exposed, it's been re-exposed with with a suboptimal variation. I mean, kudos for the placing but seriously that's just ridiculous.


Because good players can succeed with slightly sub-optimal lists? If people are playing bad lists that should make you want to go and winn some free cash.

[blindspotxxx]

Because good players can succeed with slightly sub-optimal lists? If people are playing bad lists that should make you want to go and winn some free cash.

These are my thoughts as well lol It's like saying you refuse to play because the people that play suck??

[Michael Keller]

I just don't like playing in Opens. I also prefer to stick to tournaments closer to home these days because I'm expecting a daughter.

[TableTopMagic]

I would like to say I have played with both and spy is honestly pretty good. The one main thing about spy is the speed and how it makes the deck more resistant to super aggro decks where you don't have the 7 life to pay. I think he picked the right build for the meta that was expecting more fair decks like what was seen.

Yes, Spy limits your sideboard tech. :frown:
Yes, it like every Dredge deck it is susceptible to triple Surgical Extractions. :eyebrow:
The upside of the deck is he went for full out speed. Ya, he limited his sideboard, but how many games have you had to side out pieces of the deck for cards that you may or may not get in your opening 7+1 cards. He chose the go or go home method and it payed off. Outside of Hollywood he has done better than 99% of us with this "Sub-Optimal" build.

The only think I think he did wrong was not having the 4th Cabal Therapy which he openly regretted.

[Final Fortune]

I will try to argument the best I can, but keep in mind that english isn't my native language. I hope it's understandable.

I Don't think you guys have play-tested with Balustrade Spy at all, he is way more resilient than you are giving him credit.

First of, he is not an "All in" card. You can just Dread Return a Golgari Thug to give yourself multiple turns if needed, and kill with Zombies + Ichorids.
Second, Final Fortune said something about Spy being bad vs Triple Surgical Extraction, I mean, why would you even DR him before discarding his entire hand with Therapies? And how often do you face a Triple S.E. hand? Would Griselbrand even win that game?
Third, you don't need a Dredger in the yard to combo with spy, so he might be better after a Graveyard wipe or against multiple extractions on your dredgers.
And lastly, he is a good DR target even if you are low on health, this is relevant if you are facing Delver, Burn, Goblins, etc

I have to admit though, he does limit your Sideboard options, and you must side him out everytime you need your "Reverent Silence package"
I don't think he is better than griselbrand, but he is not worse either.

Hope its not too bad to read...

I didn't mean 3xSurgical Extraction, I meant a single Surgical Extraction exiling a single component of the deck that Ballustrade Spy needs in order to continue the combo, for instance if you DR Ballustrade Spy and you've had Bridge from Below RFGed then you can't easily tripple Dread Return for the Flayer/Troll kill. I realize there are other routes that you could potentially take by DRing Golgari Thug and waiting to unleash a swarm of Ichorids and Nether Shadows etc., but I think removing a single, important peace of the deck makes it much harder to win with Balustrade Spy than it does with Griselbrand.

So it's not clearly better than Griselbrand, it's clearly worse than Griselbrand vs Show&Tell and I'm not certain it's that much better in low life situations it is vs a 7/7 Flying Life Link.

It did occur to me tho' that I board out DR targets in every match up vs Surgical Extraction, so it's probably not as bad regarding SBing in the Dakmor Salvage/Bloodghast plan as I thought.

[ahg113]

I've played both builds and I like the Griselbrand build better, without question.

Griselbrand effectively flips your deck as Spy would, but he's also a flying lifelink beat stick, which is much more impressive than a 2/3 flying vampire. Since the Spy does everything at once, it's a lot easier for an opponent to respond to the various triggers and screw us, where as, Griz represents the "slow and steady" dredge approach. It didn't bite him in the butt, obviously, but not having a shuffle back - Blightsteel or Prog. also meant he "had to win" the turn he flipped his library. If anything about his list, I would've went one less spy and one shuffle back.

I agree with Final Fortune, Griz > Spy. Not sure the benefit of Spy, maybe in SB options. My SB cards did some work, but not beaucoup work. I did miss the removal, and am thinking of ways to add it back in, at least to the SB. And there was the one lost to ANT I had, that Theo's SB prepared for that mine did not.

-2 Reverent Silence, -1 Riftstone Portal; +3 Sickening Shoal

SB: 3 Sickening Shoal
SB: 4 Chancellor of the Annex
SB: 2 Riftstone Portal
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 Nature's Claim

[Thrasher]

I rarely win games with anti hate. Both D&T and miracle have ways to deal with it, and the tempo loss for casting it is crucial against goblin. I think i'll try a sideboard focused on the bad matchups and ignore rip. Unmask kinda deals with it, and it's much better against storm.

[TableTopMagic]

I rarely win games with anti hate. Both D&T and miracle have ways to deal with it, and the tempo loss for casting it is crucial against goblin. I think i'll try a sideboard focused on the bad matchups and ignore rip. Unmask kinda deals with it, and it's much better against storm.

Unmask is really great with Chancellor of the Annex. That was my way around rest in piece without loosing a turn till I could discard to set up my dredging. My Spy build hand room for Chancellor's in the main which made it really nice.

[birdbrains]

I pretty much agree with the arguments on page 44, I've never lost a game because I had Angel of Despair over Flayer of the Hatebound and I've actually won games because I had Angel after discarding it to Unmask, Sickening Shoal or playing it off a Show&Tell etc.

This shouldn't work with Unmask or Shoal since you're exiling the card you pitch, not discarding it. Unless you're targeting yourself with Unmask? Either way, Shoal for sure doesn't work and 3 for 0-ing yourself with Unmask
just to get it in the yard seems awful.

[ahg113]

This shouldn't work with Unmask or Shoal since you're exiling the card you pitch, not discarding it. Unless you're targeting yourself with Unmask? Either way, Shoal for sure doesn't work and 3 for 0-ing yourself with Unmask
just to get it in the yard seems awful.

+1, a couple people have been saying 'discard' to cards that exile. I found that confusing...

[TableTopMagic]

+1, a couple people have been saying 'discard' to cards that exile. I found that confusing...

Allow me to clarify what I meant.

Turn 0
Reveal Chancellor of the Annex.

Turn one. (Opponent)
Opponent drops a land pass.

Turn one. (Me)
Draw. Discard.

Turn two. (Opponent)
They pay two mana and make there turn one play.

Turn two (Me)
Dredge, Unmask.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, this is still situational given that I got a Chancellor of the Annex and Unmask in my opening hand. There is still the possibility that they will just turn one ditch a something to get countered, turn two Rest in Piece/Other hate.

There is the the option of targeting yourself with Unmask when in the face of Thoughtseize or other hand hate.

[birdbrains]

I've actually won games because I had Angel after discarding it to Unmask, Sickening Shoal

was the part I was talking about. the way I'm understanding what you're saying is you use the Angel to satisfy the "remove a black card in your hand from the game" requirement by pitching the card to the graveyard so you can dread return it.

[slave]

Ballustrade forces you to run no lands for max efficiency, which hurts your ability to fight against hate cards.

Well you can't run lands with Spy, but your point is fair.
What hurts is if you face considerable hate, Spy sits on the board, whereas Griselbrand doesn't necessarily, giving you more options for the side.
Running grisel free's up board space for options.

I ran Spy for a good 4-5 months on and off. Tried lots of tweaks to the list.
This list from the SCG that top8'd is not what I would run.
Being a combo deck essentially, it's probably fair the comparison between belcher/Pact SI and some other storm variants, but it's not like the Griselbrand list is hand-over-fist stronger than Spy, against extraction, counter & gravehate etc.

FWIW, I liked Spy, and I loved how speed could help you compete against combo, and I liked that I stole quite a few games with Spy.
But on the occasions that I lost games due to inflexibility of the landless spy-list, I wasn't too thrilled either.
Given game1 is your only chance to go all-in in a lot of match-ups, I want my planB to be strong, and I doubt how strong Spy can possibly be against focussed hate postboard.

[Michael Keller]

Playing in a really big tournament tomorrow with Manaless.

I'll post reports with the new list.

[Graf_Caligula]

Playing in a really big tournament tomorrow with Manaless.

I'll post reports with the new list.

Good luck to you! I'm looking forward to some kind of report. Go go go, Hollywood =)

[Final Fortune]

This shouldn't work with Unmask or Shoal since you're exiling the card you pitch, not discarding it. Unless you're targeting yourself with Unmask? Either way, Shoal for sure doesn't work and 3 for 0-ing yourself with Unmask
just to get it in the yard seems awful.

I meant compared to Flayer of the Hatebound, Angel of Despair can pay for Unmask or Sickening Shoal's alternative casting cost.

[Mr. Froggy]

Playing in a really big tournament tomorrow with Manaless.

I'll post reports with the new list.

Good luck!

[slave]

Dudes.
I saw on the *Dredge* thread and over on the Theros thread a new card that could be of use to us in the side.

Ashen Rider
Creature - Archon
Flying, 5/5, 4WWBB
When Ashen Rider enters the battlefield or dies, exile target permanent.

Compare to Angel of Despair

This critter is pretty damn good I think, but I certainly don't expect it to be cheap!

[spetznaz]

Played Manaless at my local game store tonight. Managed to go 4-0 without loosing a single game with this list:

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Shambling Shell
3 Grisselbrand
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal

Sideboard:
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Reverent Silence
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
4 Natures Claim

Sideboardplan was -4 Chancellor, -3 Dread Retur, -3 Grisselbrand, -1 Flayer of the Hatebound, -4 Removal/Phantasmagorian,+15 cards

Managed to dodge Rest in Peace even though I played against Countertop and BW Stoneblade.

[slave]

Played Manaless at my local game store tonight. Managed to go 4-0 without loosing a single game with this list:

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Shambling Shell
3 Grisselbrand
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal

Sideboard:
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Reverent Silence
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
4 Natures Claim

Sideboardplan was -4 Chancellor, -3 Dread Retur, -3 Grisselbrand, -1 Flayer of the Hatebound, -4 Removal/Phantasmagorian,+15 cards

Managed to dodge Rest in Peace even though I played against Countertop and BW Stoneblade.

Well done. DAMN lucky dodging RiP > I tend to cop that sucker a lot.
Why you play Dryads in the side, and not in the main?

[spetznaz]

Well done. DAMN lucky dodging RiP > I tend to cop that sucker a lot.
Why you play Dryads in the side, and not in the main?

I wanted top play 4 Chancellor, 4 removal and 4-off everything else for redundancy so couldn't fit them. Playing them in the board meant that I think Grisselbrand is the better than Balustrade Spy in this version, for instance if you don't need Contagion/Shoal in but don't want to board out your Dread Return package you can board out those 4 for Dryad Arbors and still have the combo-finish in your deck.

[Michael Keller]

Top 4ed the local yesterday with a new list. Seventeen players, five rounds; played the Bloodghast package.

Details later.

[TableTopMagic]

Top 4ed the local yesterday with a new list. Seventeen players, five rounds; played the Bloodghast package.

Details later.
Oh the suspense! I am really interested to see a list that can sideboard and not have to have two random cards in your opening hand to work. Lol I will be honest I have dabbled with this idea since you mentioned it. Its really neat, but to fit what I wanted in I had to loose the flayer combo. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. :/

[Michael Keller]

I wanted to shake things up a bit and see how an older version of Manaless would be able to compete in my local meta yesterday. Turns out it was rather effective, although I don't know if I would run this exact configuration again.

I managed to Top 4 this event with the following list:

Manaless Dredge

//Main
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[2x] Shambling Shell

[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Bloodghast

[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Contagion

[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below

[4x] Dread Return
[2x] Sphinx of Lost Truths
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

[3x] Dakmor Salvage

//Sideboard
[4x] Reverent Silence
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Dryad Arbor
[3x] Faerie Macabre

My match-ups were as follows:

R1: Affinity, 2-0
R2: Death and Taxes, 1-2
R3: Manaless Dredge, 2-0
R4: EsperBlade, 2-0
R5: RUG Delver, 2-0

All of my wins were rather lopsided considering this was an older variation of the deck. My round two loss was excruciating to say the least. After winning game one handily, my empty-handed and threat-less opponent proceeded to top-deck Rest in Peace followed by Batterskull. I dredged into thirty-two (32) cards and did not see a single Dread Return, Bridge from Below or Narcomoeba - uncanny odds stacked against me. I was unable to generate a combo finish because of this turn of events and ultimately succumbed to my opponent who was able to capitalize in the third game (Although I was ready to battle Rest in Peace with 'Silence, I didn't hit the pair needed which was clearly an error on my part in the configuration.)

I actually really enjoyed the Bloodghast package and found it to be quite useful in a variety of circumstances. The redundancy in and of itself was really nice and opened the door up to some additional mana production post-board with Arbors. I eschewed running Griselbrand to see exactly how well the discard effect of Sphinx would play out in a (hopeful) Show and Tell scenario. Although I didn't play against Show, Sphinx worked out more than serviceable as a Dread Return target to facilitate the fast win.

As stated, I really only wanted to see how the discard outlet benefit with Sphinx outweighs the straight-up draw with Griselbrand.

The one nice thing that wound up playing out in my favor was the net number of dredgers that were built into the configuration: seventeen (17) total. The Shells were still in there to help with dredging, Ichorids and Contagions, but the addition of Salvages were perfectly fine in helping to dredge and bring back Bloodghasts, too. There are a variety of ways the deck could have gone, but this is what I built the night before the event and just decided to roll with it.

[TableTopMagic]

@ Hollywood

I was hoping to see a list using Riftstone Portal or did that not pan out?

[Michael Keller]

@ Hollywood

I was hoping to see a list using Riftstone Portal or did that not pan out?

I'll be playing a Portal version next week, probably.

[ntropy]

Hey all. I'm fairly new to this deck, though I have some experience with LED Dredge. Mostly unpleasant experience. Just because you have LEDs, doesn't mean you should use them... Anyways, I've been reading along this thread, and I have to say that of all of the established deck threads I've read from start to finish, this is by far the best discussion, and has been the most helpful to me learning about the deck. Kudos to y'all for solid testing, great ideas, more testing, clear, concise analysis and conclusions, and keeping open minds about other great ideas. Great tourney reports too, with impressive results!

I have a few questions... Has anyone tried a build that eschews Griselbrand AND Flayer AND Spy AND Angel for more MD space and relies on the beatdown kill? DR can target a Chancellor or a huge Troll to finish them off, and room for Ghasts or Removal can add redundancy and/or resiliency.

Someone mentioned that they liked to be explosive game 1 and resilient game 2, and there has been talk of going "fearless" vs RiP/Leyline. Has anyone tried a Spy list MD and boarding out the Spies/combo parts to make a grindier, more resilient build for games 2/3?

I don't have frequent opportunities to test vs. live opponents, so I don't feel confidant in my results, but I might fiddle around with these ideas in theory world, and see what I can (gold)fish up.

Thanks for the great reading!

[TableTopMagic]

I'll be playing a Portal version next week, probably.

Damn the Suspense! :frown: lol

I have be playing with that idea, but I am still using Chancellor of the Annex. Trying to slow down a RiP a turn.



Hey all. I'm fairly new to this deck, though I have some experience with LED Dredge. Mostly unpleasant experience. Just because you have LEDs, doesn't mean you should use them... Anyways, I've been reading along this thread, and I have to say that of all of the established deck threads I've read from start to finish, this is by far the best discussion, and has been the most helpful to me learning about the deck. Kudos to y'all for solid testing, great ideas, more testing, clear, concise analysis and conclusions, and keeping open minds about other great ideas. Great tourney reports too, with impressive results!

I have a few questions... Has anyone tried a build that eschews Griselbrand AND Flayer AND Spy AND Angel for more MD space and relies on the beatdown kill? DR can target a Chancellor or a huge Troll to finish them off, and room for Ghasts or Removal can add redundancy and/or resiliency.

Someone mentioned that they liked to be explosive game 1 and resilient game 2, and there has been talk of going "fearless" vs RiP/Leyline. Has anyone tried a Spy list MD and boarding out the Spies/combo parts to make a grindier, more resilient build for games 2/3?

I don't have frequent opportunities to test vs. live opponents, so I don't feel confidant in my results, but I might fiddle around with these ideas in theory world, and see what I can (gold)fish up.

Thanks for the great reading!

It sounds like you are looking for something closer to the older build which are still near and dear to my cool cool heart. You might want to look into a build using a little extra draw power and Flamekin Zealot. I personally prefer the balls to the wall method. Avoiding the Creature hate in the main and use Chandler to slow them down before I combo off.

[oarsman]

Hi guys. Having played against this deck in the past I thought I had a feel for it. But recently the deck seemed to be going off much faster against me. It took me a little while to realize that some people had dropped the maindeck removal spells for Gitaxian Probes. I came over here to see what the "normal" build looked like, and I see a lot of people running the removal.

Sorry if this topic has come up in earlier pages of the thread, but is there genuine disagreement over which is better? Or do most people think the removal is better, and I was just facing down a couple renegades who like to do their own thing?

[chlb]

Hi guys. Having played against this deck in the past I thought I had a feel for it. But recently the deck seemed to be going off much faster against me. It took me a little while to realize that some people had dropped the maindeck removal spells for Gitaxian Probes. I came over here to see what the "normal" build looked like, and I see a lot of people running the removal.

Sorry if this topic has come up in earlier pages of the thread, but is there genuine disagreement over which is better? Or do most people think the removal is better, and I was just facing down a couple renegades who like to do their own thing?

It could be a meta choice, if there aren't many decks running Deathrite Shaman and if they wanted some extra speed and to get extra info for Cabal Therapy.

[slave]

I have a few questions... Has anyone tried a build that eschews Griselbrand AND Flayer AND Spy AND Angel for more MD space and relies on the beatdown kill? DR can target a Chancellor or a huge Troll to finish them off, and room for Ghasts or Removal can add redundancy and/or resiliency.

Someone mentioned that they liked to be explosive game 1 and resilient game 2, and there has been talk of going "fearless" vs RiP/Leyline. Has anyone tried a Spy list MD and boarding out the Spies/combo parts to make a grindier, more resilient build for games 2/3?

I'll try... and btw, your thoughts on LED's are pretty accurate > I've played against a few LED-Dredge players who had no idea. ANyhoo;

Flayer and Angel can fit in the same deck, but in truth Angel is very rarely (if ever) a reanimation target, since you're killing a Dread Return and also nuking creatures. A single removal spell then undoes all your work quite easy. My main reanimation target is always a draw/dredge combo piece or a Flayer since all of the have Enters the Battlefield effects.
Griselbrand and Spy (and Sphinx of los truths) kinda demand you choose one or the other, since Dryad Arbor can be a large part of how you play the deck. I would personally build around either Sphinx/Grisel or Spy. I don't think it's possible to really fit many reanimation targets into the deck without seriously slowing it down and reducing consistency.

My typical list for Spy was all about speed in game 1, with 2-3 Probes in there too.
For game 2 or 3 (depending on what opponent is playing and what hate I expected) my side was usually something like 4 Dryad Arbor, 2 Verdant Catacombs, 1 Forest, 4 Nature's Claim, 4 Reverent Silence. A very slow grindy side as you can see, but at the time I was experiencing quite a large amount of gravehate and not too much storm.

I've been away from this deck for a little while, been playing Jund and a couple others, maybe it's time to come back. ;)

[(nameless one)]

@Hollywood:

Why the Sphinx over Griselbrand? Was it because of the discard?

[Michael Keller]

@Hollywood:

Why the Sphinx over Griselbrand? Was it because of the discard?

That's exactly it.

I just wanted to try it out and see if the discard factor was more relevant than drawing cards without anything to dredge in the graveyard.

Turns out Sphinx was just fine. I mean, clearly Griselbrand is Griselbrand, meaning it's incredibly powerful. But Sphinx's draw and discard built into a single card makes it a decent option.

This week I'd like to try out Kelpie again and see how he does.

[slave]

(Sphinx of Lost Truths)
Turns out Sphinx was just fine. I mean, clearly Griselbrand is Griselbrand, meaning it's incredibly powerful. But Sphinx's draw and discard built into a single card makes it a decent option.

This week I'd like to try out Kelpie again and see how he does.

B4 I could get my hands on a set of Griselbrand I rocked the SPhinx.
It's a good DR target for sure.
Due to the threat of extraction, maybe having a mix of Sphinx and Griselbrand might be a worthwhile idea?
I might try that out the next time I roll with manaless.

Now that Theros is out, I'm a bit disappointed there's nothing really all that relevant for this deck.
Ashen Rider is cool, but only if Show and Tell.deck is a problem for you, which makes it borderline at best.

[Final Fortune]

Ok, I now have the be all, end all argument against Balustrade Spy, it's a reverse win condition vs Reanimator, which is already one of our worst match ups.

[slave]

Ok, I now have the be all, end all argument against Balustrade Spy, it's a reverse win condition vs Reanimator, which is already one of our worst match ups.

In the testing I did with Spy, I did get exactly this treatment a handful of times at most > although this could be due to people not realising the interaction here.
Or it could be that reanimator only packs 4 Reanimate that can target an opponents' grave.
Targeting any of our targets is bad, whether it's flayer, grisel, angel or spy.
They can potentially turn 1 either of our main options here via Thoughtsieze etc. binning something from our hand with help from Lotus Petal, or one of their own creatures, or simply shut us down with counter unless we can go stupid on T2. I don't think we have much of a chance against a fast deck like reanimator that packs counter to back it up, no matter which reanimation targets we're packing.

FWIW, I agree that Spy is an ALL-IN choice with both pro's and con's.

[karaxu]

Due to the threat of extraction, maybe having a mix of Sphinx and Griselbrand might be a worthwhile idea?


Having a mix will create variance so when you face decks wherein the discard from sphinx is more relevant then you are well positioned.

However, using extraction as the reason to this is not correct IMO, if the extraction player is targeting the reanimation target then he/she is doing it wrong, Dread Return (targeted after the dredge on the draw phase) is the target so having a mix of DR targets should not really affect extraction.

[Gocho]

That's exactly it.

I just wanted to try it out and see if the discard factor was more relevant than drawing cards without anything to dredge in the graveyard.

Turns out Sphinx was just fine. I mean, clearly Griselbrand is Griselbrand, meaning it's incredibly powerful. But Sphinx's draw and discard built into a single card makes it a decent option.

This week I'd like to try out Kelpie again and see how he does.


Isn't Phantasmagorian enough discard effect?
You Dredge with the ability, and if you need to discard, you use 1-2 Phantasmagorians in your grave.

[Graf_Caligula]

Isn't Phantasmagorian enough discard effect?
You Dredge with the ability, and if you need to discard, you use 1-2 Phantasmagorians in your grave.

If it is in your graveyard, it would be enough most of the time .
Having more discard effects without drawbacks i.e. reducing threat density or DR targets is not too bad.

There are hands with which you could go bonkers turn 2 but there are not enough dredgers in the yard (but in hand).
Same with Cabal Therapy in hand.

[Modus Pwnens]

If it is in your graveyard, it would be enough most of the time .
Having more discard effects without drawbacks i.e. reducing threat density or DR targets is not too bad.

There are hands with which you could go bonkers turn 2 but there are not enough dredgers in the yard (but in hand).
Same with Cabal Therapy in hand.

In the same way, a dread return on Balustrade Spy would have just won that game for you.

About the reanimator matchup, if they choose to not entomb Elesh Norn against you, and instead Sandbag a Reanimate for a pontential Spy hitting your Graveyard, you probably have a far higher chance at winning that game than you normally would.
If they do that, you will have a whole free turn to combo out, or just discard their Reanimates with Therapies.

Alternatively, if you were playing with Griselbrands, they could just cast Reanimate on it and win the game anyway, it would just take a few atk steps instead.

[DarkJester]

In the same way, a dread return on Balustrade Spy would have just won that game for you.

About the reanimator matchup, if they choose to not entomb Elesh Norn against you, and instead Sandbag a Reanimate for a pontential Spy hitting your Graveyard, you probably have a far higher chance at winning that game than you normally would.
If they do that, you will have a whole free turn to combo out, or just discard their Reanimates with Therapies.

Alternatively, if you were playing with Griselbrands, they could just cast Reanimate on it and win the game anyway, it would just take a few atk steps instead.

Well, that's seems very short sighted to me. Reanimator doesn't always have the choice to Entomb for Elesh. You just open up an easy to figure out win-route to them if you dredge into Spy (be it Reanimate or Animate Dead). The point for Grizzly goes to you, but it seems that there may be an OldSchool Sphinx instead of a demon...

Edit: Hey, let's use this for our own game plan and board in a singleton land (maybe 2, if you go the safe-route)...they shall reanimate :cool:

[ahg113]

For the heck of it, isn't that what Blightsteel Colossus, Worldspine Wurm are for?

[DarkJester]

For the heck of it, isn't that what Blightsteel Colossus, Worldspine Wurm are for?

Yeah, that's the masterplan. They are even better if opponent casts Show and Tell^^

[slave]

However, using extraction as the reason to this is not correct IMO, if the extraction player is targeting the reanimation target then he/she is doing it wrong, Dread Return (targeted after the dredge on the draw phase) is the target so having a mix of DR targets should not really affect extraction.

True, but for me this is a maybe. It depends on what your opponent is playing and what the board state is like.

I find DR is more a combo alt-win that gets countered more often than not, the zombie attack being the more likely win-con.
Personally I find the dredger's in Imp and Troll, or Bridges getting targeted hurts more, as that pretty much slows our deck to a crawl unless we're already winning.
Targeting DR sucks, but doesn't really hurt that much, as we can then exile griselbrands/Spy for Ichorids, grab Nether Shadows etc. and of course zombie up via the normal grind plan.

Now I'm kinda curious...
Of all of you to play this deck more than a handful of times, which cards get the most extraction hate in your experience?
IME, I find Troll cops it the most.
You?

[karaxu]

Now I'm kinda curious...
Of all of you to play this deck more than a handful of times, which cards get the most extraction hate in your experience?
IME, I find Troll cops it the most.
You?

I have piloted Manaless only a couple of times but have faced it using RUG/UR delver on more occasions.

I speak from the opponents side.

My #1 target is bridge from below, I usually let them dredge to it then take the window I have "after dredge" to extract.
More often than not extracting the first dredger would only open up to street wraith tricks or he just have another dredger to discard next turn.

#2 target is DR, but if I see that he can use DR and there are still no bridges in sight then I would extract DR

[Txisvurger]

How are sideboards looking lately? What would you guys pack against an unknown meta? Also, being as Balustrade Spy is, an all in strategy, woul you rather play a 2-2 split of Griselbrand and Flayer of the hatebound and grind games 2/3 or go all in G1 with BS and grind out games 2/3?
One last thing, what do you guys think of Gigapede + Basking Rootwalla?

[Graf_Caligula]

How are sideboards looking lately?

Look at the last two pages or so, there you can find some recent lists with SBs.



What would you guys pack against an unknown meta]

Since Sb even suggested to go fearless, i. e. no anti grave hate cards in the board, you can feel free to pack in cards for MUs you fear most. Otherwise i would suggest SBs you find in the recent posts.



Also, being as Balustrade Spy is, an all in strategy, woul you rather play a 2-2 split of Griselbrand and Flayer of the hatebound and grind games 2/3 or go all in G1 with BS and grind out games 2/3?

Consense is both, Griselbro and Spy, have some pros and cons. So it is up to you to choose your style. I myself stick with Grisel. When you DR him you also flip your whole Deck, provided you have Dredgers in the yard.

In addition you can draw cards in the meant-to-be way. He also has some interaction with flayer and Life Link.
I would not play a 2-2 split. 3-1 is good since after turning your deck over, chances are good to get the one flayer in the yard.




One last thing, what do you guys think of Gigapede + Basking Rootwalla?

This duett contributes quite nothing to the deck anymore imho.

The discard effect of Gigapede is nice, but MD space is really thight. Phantasmagorian is just better.

And Rootwalla is bad compared to Dryad Arbor, an uncounterable 1/1 that does not rely on discard.


So that are my two cents. Feel free to comment ;)

[Txisvurger]

Thanks a lot Graf =)

Up to this point I failed to see the point of dryad arbor. Am I right to assume it plays a similar role to the narcomoebas (but this one comes from your hand) once you have started dredging to add fuel for DRs?
Also, a quick question, I don't seem to be seeing as much verdant catacombs in the SBs. Could someone clarify what they were used for? (I must also say I cannot afford them, so using them in my SB is out of the question unfortunately).

[chlb]

Dryad Arbor also helps you cast Reverent Silence and Nature's Claim.

I had two green fetches and a basic forest on my sideboard, to help me cast my anti-hate in games 2 and 3 in addition to arbors. The forest came in against decks with Wasteland.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Is this deck actually playable since the printing of Deathrite Shaman? I mean I see some of the "tech" used against it, but I just don't see how LED Dredge isn't just better.

[Michael Keller]

I consider Deathrite Shaman a fly that I swat at first sight. Manaless Dredge thrashes most decks that run it, as it's either too slow or ineffective.

There aren't many decks in the format that run it that have as fast a clock as you do. I (effectively) mulled to three against Shardless BUG with a double-Contagion hand and wiped it out after he actually mulled to six on the play. There was no pressure thereafter - only permission.

This happens more often than you think.

[slave]

Up to this point I failed to see the point of dryad arbor. Am I right to assume it plays a similar role to the narcomoebas (but this one comes from your hand) once you have started dredging to add fuel for DRs?
Also, a quick question, I don't seem to be seeing as much verdant catacombs in the SBs. Could someone clarify what they were used for? (I must also say I cannot afford them, so using them in my SB is out of the question unfortunately).

The main point about Dryad Arbor, is of course fuel for DR and Cabal Therapy, but also that it's uncounterable.

I wouldn't worry too much about not affording Verdant Catacomb's. Just running Forest's is fine, and in fact sometimes it can be beneficial. The potential deck-thinning of the Verdant's is neglible given we have so few lands anyway.
I've dredged my only forest into the graveyard many times, leading me to rely on finding a Dryad Arbor to cast my answers/hate, so I'm currently running 2 Verdant Catacomb's, 2 Forests and 4 Dryad Arbors for green sources for this reason.


I consider Deathrite Shaman a fly that I swat at first sight. Manaless Dredge thrashes most decks that run it, as it's either too slow or ineffective.

I agree.
We can outrace it most of the time early, after that we just have to play tight.

Regarding Spy VS Grisel, there's heaps of thoughts on this in the thread. There's a whole lot of posts by myself, Final Fortune, RT etc. for idea's.
I honestly don't see either Grisel or Spy being better than the other, just simply a meta choice, heavily influenced by what you expect to face regularly. I think I've tested these two enough to offer this opinion. If you're on the fence, test yourself and post your thoughts! :wink:
For example;
For me I expect to face Charbelcher, Burn and Affinity fairly regularly. Due to these decks having a fast clock and being able to drop your life quickly, I find Spy useful as I can Dread Return it below 7 life. But, if I was expecting to face decks like Sneak/Show, Omnitell or Reanimator more often, I would prefer Griselbrand.
I'm sure you guys can add many, many more scenario's here.

[Vlad Teppes]

The point of Spy vs griselbrand is that if you are playing spy, you had more mainboard space ( not using dryad arbors and one less flayer of the hatebound) but has less sideboard space ( for lands and anti hate), and griselbrand is the opposite, less mainboard space (using arbors) but you have more space to tailor your sideboard with anti hate as you usually don't have any lands on the sideboard.
IMO there's no right or wrong choice in this departament , there's only the choice that fits your playstyle :laugh:

[Final Fortune]

Thanks a lot Graf =)

Up to this point I failed to see the point of dryad arbor. Am I right to assume it plays a similar role to the narcomoebas (but this one comes from your hand) once you have started dredging to add fuel for DRs?
Also, a quick question, I don't seem to be seeing as much verdant catacombs in the SBs. Could someone clarify what they were used for? (I must also say I cannot afford them, so using them in my SB is out of the question unfortunately).

MD Arbors are also quite useful with SB Bloodghasts, that's +2 bodies for Dread Return on turn two.

[Graf_Caligula]

MD Arbors are also quite useful with SB Bloodghasts, that's +2 bodies for Dread Return on turn two.

Yep! Additionally they help against taxing effects.

[Txisvurger]

Thanks everyone for the responses, I have a much more clear idea now.

I'm thinking on going the Griselbrand way, I like the dude, he is a 7/7 flying badass and he is not as high variance as the spy. I guess I'll be using ghasta in my SB, do you think I'd also need dakmor salvages for more ocnsistency? For the rest I guess I'll just pack leylines (void and/or sanctity and maybe an ashen rider).

[Vlad Teppes]

Thanks everyone for the responses, I have a much more clear idea now.

I'm thinking on going the Griselbrand way, I like the dude, he is a 7/7 flying badass and he is not as high variance as the spy. I guess I'll be using ghasta in my SB, do you think I'd also need dakmor salvages for more ocnsistency? For the rest I guess I'll just pack leylines (void and/or sanctity and maybe an ashen rider).

I think you are right, sometimes consistence is the way to go, I allways played Griselbrand, he can close games on his own even without drawing 7 cards
Also can someone correct me if I'm wrong but if I reanimate a flayer of the hatebound, and then I reanimate griselbrand do I gain 7 life for his lifelink ability?
I think that's true but never asked anyone.

[Graf_Caligula]

I think you are right, sometimes consistence is the way to go, I allways played Griselbrand, he can close games on his own even without drawing 7 cards
Also can someone correct me if I'm wrong but if I reanimate a flayer of the hatebound, and then I reanimate griselbrand do I gain 7 life for his lifelink ability?
I think that's true but never asked anyone.

Yes, you get 7 life since Flayer of the Hatebound reads:

...that creature (that enters the battlefield from the graveyard) deals damage equal to its power...

[Vlad Teppes]

Yes, you get 7 life since Flayer of the Hatebound reads:

...that creature (that enters the battlefield from the graveyard) deals damage equal to its power...

thz for straighting that out mate!
and now we get one more reason to run Big G instead of the spy!

[Graf_Caligula]

Mmh, it is a corner case. I have never used the life link that way. I think in one of thousand games you might really get to use it..

[Vlad Teppes]

Mmh, it is a corner case. I have never used the life link that way. I think in one of thousand games you might really get to use it..

yeah it's situational at best, but it might be usefull should it happen, and griselbrand is better than balustrade spy, its a 7/7 lifelinker , even without the draw 7 effect, its a powerfull creature if a ability to close games on his own. and the lifeloss is negligible since you are winning that turn anyway

[slave]

Or you could Dread Return two Flayer's in the same turn and kill your opponent right there without even needing to attack.
I've done exactly that with the 3 G-man, 2 Flayer setup.

But that is kinda unlikely, it's rare you can get two DR's cast in the same turn to actually resolve.

[(nameless one)]

Manaless Dredge

//Main
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[2x] Shambling Shell

[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Bloodghast

[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Contagion

[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below

[4x] Dread Return
[2x] Sphinx of Lost Truths
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

[3x] Dakmor Salvage

//Sideboard
[4x] Reverent Silence
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Dryad Arbor
[3x] Faerie Macabre


I'm considering this list and replacing the sphinxes with Griselbrand. Any recommendations?

[Vlad Teppes]

I'm considering this list and replacing the sphinxes with Griselbrand. Any recommendations?

Seems pretty standart, had you playtested with it?
if yes, it's a good list, the bloodghast package gives you more creatures for dread return and cabal therapy and is good at grinding games.

If no, the list is a good start, but you might wanna to maindeck dryad arbor, it will give you more sideboard room to manuever against GY hate, and without salvage, bloodghast is sub par at best, it might be a good idea to maindeck more DR targets (chancellor of the annex really shines here!) or more removal.

but it's a great list. Good luck with the deck!

[slave]

I'm considering this list and replacing the sphinxes with Griselbrand. Any recommendations?

Looks good.
This list looks like it's concentrating on the grind plan a bit more than the combo plan, but it also looks a little bit fearless, given the small amount of green sources and answers in the side.
I wouldn't worry about, test the sucker out > see how much hate you encounter, see what works.
You can always tweak it after that.

I'm not sure Chancellor of the Annex is a great addition here.

Just a thought;
I wanna like the ghast/dakmor. When I tested it I ended up liking 4 Dryad Arbor in the main, 4 Dread Return with 3 Griselbrand.
Without the DR combo being the primary focus, ghast loses a bit I think > Anyone else agree/disagree here?

[Final Fortune]

I like SBing Ghast but I don't like MDing Ghast because that's 4+ cards in your MD that do not deal with Deathrite Shaman and you do not need that much business vs anything MD because nobody plays mass graveyard removal MD (you lose if RIP resolves anyway)

I'm kind of more lenient with Dryad Arbor MD, mainly because it has excellent synergy with the SB Ghast/Salvage plan that you really want to play vs any Snap/Surgical deck or maybe RUG.

[slave]

CHeers.

I have another question too.
How do you fella's play against Omnitell?
They're not as fast as Sneak/SHow, but I've been finding lately that the grind plan (been using 8 G sources and 8 enchantment killers) hasn't been doing very well. So I've switched back to game1 decklist and just tried to outrace them and hopefully get past their counter. Annex helps here too.
My results so far are mixed....

What are your thoughts?

[Vlad Teppes]

CHeers.

I have another question too.
How do you fella's play against Omnitell?
They're not as fast as Sneak/SHow, but I've been finding lately that the grind plan (been using 8 G sources and 8 enchantment killers) hasn't been doing very well. So I've switched back to game1 decklist and just tried to outrace them and hopefully get past their counter. Annex helps here too.
My results so far are mixed....

What are your thoughts?

the combo matchup in general is not good for manaless, we excel at fighting control and non maverick aggro (jund and nicfit are hard too, but manageable with a good hand)

The best you can do is the use of a surprise bomb such as a Ashen Rider or Kederekt Leviathan when they cast show and tell, but that is too much circumstantial ( maybe one in each ten games? can't say for sure)

IMO better leave the race to the LED dredge who excel's at fighting slower combo decks (even with LED the show and tell MU is tricky), but you don't auto scoop at show and tell, you only need a good hand (bomb+ acceleration + dredger but that hand is hard to get because we don't mulligan!).

Hopefully that helped!

[Final Fortune]

CHeers.

I have another question too.
How do you fella's play against Omnitell?
They're not as fast as Sneak/SHow, but I've been finding lately that the grind plan (been using 8 G sources and 8 enchantment killers) hasn't been doing very well. So I've switched back to game1 decklist and just tried to outrace them and hopefully get past their counter. Annex helps here too.
My results so far are mixed....

What are your thoughts?

Show&Tell combo decks are the entire reason I championed Unmask in Manaless Dredge, there are a category of combo decks in Legacy that all win from T3+, High Tide, Show&Tell, Ad Nauseam etc. where I find that disruption, not acceleration, is the only way to race them. As far as OmniShow is concerned, 4 Angel of Despair in the SB is also a legitimate metagame decision.

It's also the reason I think Angel of Despair >>> Flayer of the Hatebound.

[DarkJester]

Show&Tell combo decks are the entire reason I championed Unmask in Manaless Dredge, there are a category of combo decks in Legacy that all win from T3+, High Tide, Show&Tell, Ad Nauseam etc. where I find that disruption, not acceleration, is the only way to race them. As far as OmniShow is concerned, 4 Angel of Despair in the SB is also a legitimate metagame decision.

It's also the reason I think Angel of Despair >>> Flayer of the Hatebound.

Say Hello to Trickbind. But at least the S'n'T-Player needs another Card for his Combo (Cunning Wish) which may buy you the needed time. ;)

[jandax]

Why is Angel of Despair better than Ashen Rider? Honest question

[DarkJester]

Why is Angel of Despair better than Ashen Rider? Honest question

I think nobody said this. ;) Maybe Final Fortune wasn't aware of that card.

[Final Fortune]

Why is Angel of Despair better than Ashen Rider? Honest question

It's legal.

[Graf_Caligula]

Ashen Rider is legal, too.

From Wizards.com:

Cards from expansions and special sets (like From the Vault, Magic: The Gathering - Commander, Duel Decks, etc) are legal in the Legacy format on the date of release of the expansion or special set.

From Wiki.mtgsalvation.com:

Theros is the first set in the Theros block. It is the 62nd Magic expansion and will be released on September 27, 2013.

It is legal since it is not on the list: https://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Resources.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrlegacy

[Vlad Teppes]

Why is Angel of Despair better than Ashen Rider? Honest question

Ashen rider is way better than angel of despair... it doesn't kill, it exiles, so it can take enrakull and not shuffle the opponents library in the process, and it can do it twice should you sac him to a therapy or DR!
I cannot see the point that angel is better.

[DarkJester]

I think nobody said this. ;) Maybe Final Fortune wasn't aware of that card.

I'll quote me here.

[Graf_Caligula]

If we compare

Angel of Despair with Ashen Rider

it is obvious that Rider is an direct upgrade since it

a) Exiles
b) Two
c) Permanents (also Lands)

(as long it is legal;). And we do not questions that, do we?

[DarkJester]

If we compare

Angel of Despair with Ashen Rider

it is obvious that Rider is an direct upgrade since it

a) Exiles
b) Two
c) Permanents (also Lands)

(as long it is legal;). And we do not questions that, do we?

We totally agree here. You forgot to mention that Ashen Rider stays a 5/5 even if our opponent played an Engineered Plague on Angels to weaken the Dread Returned Chancellor of the Annex :P

[slave]

Ashen Rider is okay.


We totally agree here. You forgot to mention that Ashen Rider stays a 5/5 even if our opponent played an Engineered Plague on Angels to weaken the Dread Returned Chancellor of the Annex :P

I assume you're being sarcastic. :really:

I asked about the Omnitell matchup specifically, as I've come up against it a fair bit lately, and because it's fairly slow for a combo deck, so we have time to compete.
They seem to go off on around T3 to 4.
I've never been a big fan of Unmask, as it's only really useful against the slower decks. Against really fast decks like Storm, you have to sacrifice speed to do something that mightn't even stop them....

[Vlad Teppes]

Unmask is good, but I never got to use it right... It's good against fast decks, but it slow us down too, and against slower decks it will not make any more diference than say, a chancellor of the annex, It's a good card, but I won't see the point of putting them in the SB

[TableTopMagic]

Nvm, found what I was looking for. :P

[Final Fortune]

Ashen Rider is legal, too.

From Wizards.com:

Cards from expansions and special sets (like From the Vault, Magic: The Gathering - Commander, Duel Decks, etc) are legal in the Legacy format on the date of release of the expansion or special set.

From Wiki.mtgsalvation.com:

Theros is the first set in the Theros block. It is the 62nd Magic expansion and will be released on September 27, 2013.

It is legal since it is not on the list: https://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Resources.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrlegacy

Ah I forgot they changed that, my bad.

[Michael Keller]

Absolutely huge tournament this Saturday at Jupiter Games for an Invitational Qualifier.

I'll be riding classic Manaless all the way.

[TableTopMagic]

Absolutely huge tournament this Saturday at Jupiter Games for an Invitational Qualifier.

I'll be riding classic Manaless all the way.

Didn't you play a big event last weekend or the weekend before with your "New Hotness" build? The one with Riftstone Portals? How did that turn out?

[slave]

The one with Riftstone Portals?

Hang on a mo'.

Were you using a couple Dakmor Salvage with some Riftstone Portal?
Might be a nice way to cast green stuff without needing it in your hand.:eyebrow:

[Michael Keller]

Didn't you play a big event last weekend or the weekend before with your "New Hotness" build? The one with Riftstone Portals? How did that turn out?

That was a local event where I wanted to try out a different prototype. It wasn't necessarily new "hotness," it was just an attempt to try something different. I was unable to attend that event - becoming a new dad has been very difficult to play as often as I used to.

That being said, I am not playing that version with Portals this weekend.

[Mindlash]

That was a local event where I wanted to try out a different prototype. It wasn't necessarily new "hotness," it was just an attempt to try something different. I was unable to attend that event - becoming a new dad has been very difficult to play as often as I used to.

That being said, I am not playing that version with Portals this weekend.

It possibly fits more in the other Dredge thread but whats about your new Dredge brew with Tortured Existence?

[Slag]

new Dredge brew with Tortured Existence

You have my attention.

[Mindlash]

You have my attention.

Well Hollywood posted something about it. He described it as a hybrid between Mana- and Manaless Dredge and one of the most grindiest lists he ever played. Beeing a lazy person I have not put much thought in it, but I guess it uses at least the interaction of Street Wraith and Tortured Existence. I am interested how it worked out and what it may look like :)

[slave]

Tortured existence?
One of my fave cards for MP kitchen table games. I've seen it in NicFit and the like, but not in dredge before.
Interesting.....
Wouldn't it only be useful to grab a Dryad Arbor, or in protecting from Surgical Extraction/graveyard popping, and the like?

-----------------------------

Lately I've been testing out just a couple Ancient Grudge in the side (and it's cousin, Ray of Revelation, on and off)
I've been coming up against Burn (Ensnaring Bridge) , Affinity (plating) & Blade-decks (jitte, batterskull etc.) a but more often, & I'm finding the 4 Claims just aren't cutting it.

Now I know a *hard* hate card like Wheel of S&M, RiP, Grafdigger's etc. are gonna be hard to play around and most likely stall us long enough for them to win, but so far I've found it encouraging.:smile:
Reason being, I've been finding the variety of hate seems pretty diverse, and that it's been a way to force the *pop* from Relic of Progenitus etc. earlier rather than later, once it hits the yard.
Anyone else run this bit of tech?

[Mindlash]

Tortured existence?
One of my fave cards for MP kitchen table games. I've seen it in NicFit and the like, but not in dredge before.
Interesting.....
Wouldn't it only be useful to grab a Dryad Arbor, or in protecting from Surgical Extraction/graveyard popping, and the like?

-----------------------------

Lately I've been testing out just a couple Ancient Grudge in the side (and it's cousin, Ray of Revelation, on and off)
I've been coming up against Burn (Ensnaring Bridge) , Affinity (plating) & Blade-decks (jitte, batterskull etc.) a but more often, & I'm finding the 4 Claims just aren't cutting it.

Now I know a *hard* hate card like Wheel of S&M, RiP, Grafdigger's etc. are gonna be hard to play around and most likely stall us long enough for them to win, but so far I've found it encouraging.:smile:
Reason being, I've been finding the variety of hate seems pretty diverse, and that it's been a way to force the *pop* from Relic of Progenitus etc. earlier rather than later, once it hits the yard.
Anyone else run this bit of tech?

@ Tortured Existence:
I guess its more of its own variation of Dredge. Neither Manaless nor LED Dredge. Well hopefully Hollywood can tell us something about the Deck and how well it worked. I like the card for style and it would be nice to build a Dredge Deck around it :)

As for Grudge and Ray...I played them in Quadlaser Dredge. While Ray of Revelation was pretty lackluster, because its Flashback does nothing against Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace and Wheel of Sun and Moon its cousin actually is still in my Sideboard for cards like Batterskull and Ensnaring Bridge like you mentioned. Triggering earlier Crypts and Relics might work as well, but lately I just slowrolled them, which even works better with Manaless Dredge due to the higher threat density.

[Vlad Teppes]

@ Tortured Existence:
I guess its more of its own variation of Dredge. Neither Manaless nor LED Dredge. Well hopefully Hollywood can tell us something about the Deck and how well it worked. I like the card for style and it would be nice to build a Dredge Deck around it :)

As for Grudge and Ray...I played them in Quadlaser Dredge. While Ray of Revelation was pretty lackluster, because its Flashback does nothing against Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace and Wheel of Sun and Moon its cousin actually is still in my Sideboard for cards like Batterskull and Ensnaring Bridge like you mentioned. Triggering earlier Crypts and Relics might work as well, but lately I just slowrolled them, which even works better with Manaless Dredge due to the higher threat density.

IDK, I tought you could flashback ray of revelation against Rest in peace ETB trigger '-' your grave would still be nuked, but at least you can restart your engine with Pimp or regular discard outlets.

Is this a legal play?

[Michael Keller]

Tournament time... I'll update you guys throughout the day.

[Graf_Caligula]

I am curious. Best of luck to you! *cheer*

[Vlad Teppes]

GL hollywood!
Do your best!

[slave]

IDK, I tought you could flashback ray of revelation against Rest in peace ETB trigger '-' your grave would still be nuked, but at least you can restart your engine with Pimp or regular discard outlets.

Is this a legal play?

Yes.

[Michael Keller]

Sorry for the delayed reporting. I wound up going 1-2 drop on the heels of facing Jank Reanimator, traditional Reanimator and triple Surgical Extraction-Deathrite-Scavenging Ooze-Four Color Cascade. These decks were all over the place and it was a mess trying to figure out exactly what they were doing.

Clearly, no one wanted to lose to graveyard-based strategies today. My list and board were identical to the old one I played, except I wanted to try out River Kelpie and Undiscovered Paradise out of the board.

FWIW, I made finals of the Vintage side event with Dredge.

[TableTopMagic]

Placed 40th of 250. 6-3 record with a Spy list.
Write-up coming soon.

_______________________________________________________________________
PS, If there is a Manaless Dredge Player here in the forum that wants to punch another Manaless Dredge player in the face, from SCG Milwaukee, I am still sorry.
You know why, and I know why. :cry:

[cab0747]

Are Reverent Silence and Dryad Arbor our only ways to try and fight through the GY hate we will be seeing in G2 and G3?

Would anyone consider Nature's Claim in place of Reverent Silence? We still need the green source to cast it, it can hit problem artifacts too, and it only gives our opponent 4 life rather than 6. Am I missing something? I am quite new to this deck but it has been a blast to play so far.

[chlb]

I had the following sideboard when I took Manaless to a top 8 finish (http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10963&iddeck=80085) in a large Finnish legacy tournament:

4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Nature's Claim
4 Reverent Silence
1 Forest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest

Or course that was like six months ago and overall metagame is probably different here, but the board felt pretty good.

[cab0747]

Are Reverent Silence and Dryad Arbor our only ways to try and fight through the GY hate we will be seeing in G2 and G3?

Would anyone consider Nature's Claim in place of Reverent Silence? We still need the green source to cast it, it can hit problem artifacts too, and it only gives our opponent 4 life rather than 6. Am I missing something? I am quite new to this deck but it has been a blast to play so far.

Hmm, I think I resolved my own question: Reverent Silence works with Dryad Arbor for a T1 play as the Arbor has summoning sickness (I forgot about this part) and cannot cast Nature's Claim T1. While, if you are playing forests (of any kind) and fetches, they will work with a T1 Nature's Claim. Correct?

I guess it come down to playstyle and personal choice. I think I will go with the Reverent Silence and Dryad Arbor since Arbor can be sac'd for Cabal Therapy or Dread Return.

Another thought (again, please excuse my ignorance) I was considering playing 1-2 copies of Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre MB to go along with Balustrade Spy. I was thinking that Ulamog could prevent us milling ourselves and can be a nice threat for Show and Tell. Is it worth it? If I decide to bard out Spy and they aren't playing SnT, it is just an easy board choice for G2 and some of the cards to fight the GY hate with we will surely be seeing.

[TableTopMagic]

@Cab0704
I run a Spy list and I have never decked myself. If I have my deck in the grave and I don't win... I probably wasn't going to win anyways. I do have sideboard tech for mil decks such as Painter Stone. I use Worldspine Wurm over the other "shuffle back" creatures. His token effect is great against show and tell also. I used him to win against two difrent Painter decks last weekend.

[cab0747]

@Cab0704
I run a Spy list and I have never decked myself. If I have my deck in the grave and I don't win... I probably wasn't going to win anyways. I do have sideboard tech for mil decks such as Painter Stone. I use Worldspine Wurm over the other "shuffle back" creatures. His token effect is great against show and tell also. I used him to win against two difrent Painter decks last weekend.

Hmm, not a bad idea at all. Again, I haven't played this a ton (not much Legacy that I can get to around here).

Thanks!

[slave]

'Blightsteel is pretty good too.

[Final Fortune]

It's pointless, just Dread Return a Golgari Thug for +1 Library.

[slave]

It's pointless, just Dread Return a Golgari Thug for +1 Library.

Extraction is a risk (for DR that is)
Worldspine/Blightsteel etc. are a guarauntee'd way to give yourself another turn if needed, and also protect against Mill.
Not that Mill is really much of a thing in legacy (at least where I am), but against manaless that would be pretty funny.

[TableTopMagic]

It's pointless, just Dread Return a Golgari Thug for +1 Library.

Can't do that against Painter Stone.

[slave]

Are Reverent Silence and Dryad Arbor our only ways to try and fight through the GY hate we will be seeing in G2 and G3?

Would anyone consider Nature's Claim in place of Reverent Silence? We still need the green source to cast it, it can hit problem artifacts too, and it only gives our opponent 4 life rather than 6. Am I missing something? I am quite new to this deck but it has been a blast to play so far.

There is no perfect sideboard for manaless in my opinion. It will depend on what your area is like re: Hate and sheer speed as to how effective any sideboard will be.

Answers;
Nature's Claim
Reverent Silence
Emerald Charm

Sort of Answers;
Ray of Revelation
Ancient Grudge

Sources;
Elvish Spirit Guide
Lotus Petal
Dryad Arbor.
Forests & Fetches.

All the sources here will depend highly upon whether you're running the Spy list, or the traditional Griselbrand (or sphinx) list which runs lands (Dryad Arbor) in the main.

[slave]

Yay!
Went 4-1. :cool:
Lost against typical Red/Green Belcher. Stupid storm...:really:

Still didn't get a chance to use the Ray of Revelation.... but once again I got good use out of Grudge.
I'm thinking 1-2 Grudge is a keeper for me.

[Graf_Caligula]

Congratulations! Did you face some hate? And how did you handle it?

[slave]

Congratulations! Did you face some hate? And how did you handle it?

Yeah I did. I did get some absolute god draws too. :cool:
I copped Grafdigger's a couple times, aswell as a RiP > but overall I just had an answer in hand more often than not.
I faced extraction a bit too > but I don't mind that too much.
(running answers in sets of Claim & Silence, 2 Grudge & 1 Ray + 9 G-sources of which a single Bayou is one of them)
The main one that has me questioning whether Grudge is worth a slot is Grafdigger's... still not sure.

I should make it clear though, my side isn't good against fast combo / storm > but it does give me a fair chance against decks like Jund, Stoneblade etc., that take a little longer to kill.

[cab0747]

There is no perfect sideboard for manaless in my opinion. It will depend on what your area is like re: Hate and sheer speed as to how effective any sideboard will be.

Answers;
Nature's Claim
Reverent Silence
Emerald Charm

Sort of Answers;
Ray of Revelation
Ancient Grudge

Sources;
Elvish Spirit Guide
Lotus Petal
Dryad Arbor.
Forests & Fetches.

All the sources here will depend highly upon whether you're running the Spy list, or the traditional Griselbrand (or sphinx) list which runs lands (Dryad Arbor) in the main.

Currently, I am running the spy list, so I would need to have the Dryad Arbor in my board. I am comfortable with my 60, but the sideboard is still bugging me :mad:

I know I will need to be able to fight through the GY hate, but I am not sure how I should balance it. My first shot was:


4 Dryad Arbor
4 Reverent Silence
4 Nature's Claim
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sickening Shoal

[Citizen]

Hi there,

simple rule question:

I have a Bridge in my grave, i sac a creature to flashback a therapy.
Do i choose the order on the stack of the therapy and the bridge trigger ?
If yes, is their an order better than the other one ?

[ahg113]

Hi there,

simple rule question:

I have a Bridge in my grave, i sac a creature to flashback a therapy.
Do i choose the order on the stack of the therapy and the bridge trigger ?
If yes, is their an order better than the other one ?

No
The Bridge triggers before the spell resolves, as a result of sacrificing a creature to cast therapy. So you don't get an option.

[slave]

No
The Bridge triggers before the spell resolves, as a result of sacrificing a creature to cast therapy. So you don't get an option.

Yup.

Remember your trigger's. Can't stress this enough.
If you stuff up the order, a fucktard opponent can wave their whiney arse at you, and get a judge over to give you frowny face.
Nether Shadow and Ichorid should be in your mind at start of every turn.

To add to this;
Should an opponent have one of their creatures hit the grave during combat = exiles all Bridges.
When a creature dies and goes to the grave, they can still have a trigger placed on the stack (for example, Festering Goblin) but this can't happen from exile.
So regardless of whether your creatures died also, you get no tokens out of it either way.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just a thought peeps.
I'm running a side full of answers to gravehate lately.
And I've been running a single Bayou.
It's been absolutely stellar in the games where I've actually drawn it (about 2 or 3 so far) but it still has me nervous....
Been thinking of introducing another, making my land count postboard;
4 Dryad Arbor, 1 Forest, 2 Bayou/Overgrown Tomb, 2 Verdant Catacombs

I'm curious whether anyone here has given it (or Overgrown Tomb) a go, and whether you think it's even worth a slot, given that Wasteland does stuff, and things.

Also,
I've been playing around trying to make up a list with Riftstone Portal and some Swamp's.
But I just can't seem to make it work in any real sense that isn't full retard.
Has anyone had any luck with Riftstone in manaless?

[meffeo]

Going to a small tourney this saturday, that's the list I've got in mind:

Creatures:48
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Street Wraith
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Phantasmagorian
1 Griselbrand

Spells:12
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return

Sideboard:15
1 Forest
2 Fetch
4 Nature's Claim
3 Contagion
4 Reverent Silence
1 Ashen Rider

I'm going manaless cause the ledless list with lands that I've played so far hasn't the same consistency that I've seen with the manaless.

[slave]

I'm going manaless cause the ledless list with lands that I've played so far hasn't the same consistency that I've seen with the manaless.

Nice list.

I disagree with your last comment though.
LED-dredge is quite consistent, and has the benefit of being successful even when you mulligan aggressively (even down to 4!)
I'd argue that Manaless is more threat dense, but doesn't have consistentcy comparable to it's LED cousin.

[meffeo]

Thanks for your answer. I'll write a report after the tourney

Edit: atm I can't find the 4 chancellor and it's too late for order it, there's a nice substiute for her?

Edit2:

I was wondering about 4 Gitaxian Probe. It's a great engine because, as someone already said:

1 - it lets me draw a card (-> dredge)
2 - the following Cabal Therapy are easier

BUT

it's counterable, it means that I lose at the same time the chance to see opponent's hand and to dredge.

Then I assume that Chancellor > Probe.

[ahg113]

Nice list.

I disagree with your last comment though.
LED-dredge is quite consistent, and has the benefit of being successful even when you mulligan aggressively (even down to 4!)
I'd argue that Manaless is more threat dense, but doesn't have consistentcy comparable to it's LED cousin.

For the heck of it, meffeo said LED-less < manaless.

And for the creatures die in combat, with a bridge in your yard- you can still get tokens (barring first strike, sacrificing, other tricks.)

Both creatures (yours is non-token) deal damage and die at the same time. You own the bridge, and both events occur for it to trigger. You own both triggers (since you own bridge) and can place them on the stack as you wish. With the LIFO (Last In, First Out) resolving method, place the remove trigger on the stack first, then your token generator trigger second. As they resolve, you get your tokens, then bridge is removed. If/when your opponent cries, call a judge, and have the judge tell said opponent to suck it.

[slave]

For the heck of it, meffeo said LED-less < manaless.

And for the creatures die in combat, with a bridge in your yard- you can still get tokens (barring first strike, sacrificing, other tricks.)

Both creatures (yours is non-token) deal damage and die at the same time. You own the bridge, and both events occur for it to trigger. You own both triggers (since you own bridge) and can place them on the stack as you wish. With the LIFO (Last In, First Out) resolving method, place the remove trigger on the stack first, then your token generator trigger second. As they resolve, you get your tokens, then bridge is removed. If/when your opponent cries, call a judge, and have the judge tell said opponent to suck it.

Sorry meffeo - guess I don't read proper.

RE: Bridge ruling > This sounds right, but I've been ruled against trying to do this, multiple times.

[Mr. Froggy]

Sorry meffeo - guess I don't read proper.

RE: Bridge ruling > This sounds right, but I've been ruled against trying to do this, multiple times.

Impossible to be ruled against, since its right. The judge who ruled against you needs to refresh his/her memory.

[slave]

Impossible to be ruled against, since its right. The judge who ruled against you needs to refresh his/her memory.

Aight > Thanks. Next time someone waves a tanty, I'll call their mother a hamster.

[meffeo]

A little update and thoughts about my list:

Creatures:42

4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Street Wraith
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Griselbrand

Spells:16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return

Sideboard:15
3 Forest
4 Nature's Claim
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Reverent Silence

TOTAL: 58

As you can see I've decided to run 4 griselbrand. As it enters the bf it's quite gg for me, and I'm quite satisfied with my sideboard choices.

I've cutted the dryad arbor and I play without the balustrade, it means that I have two free slots. Any suggestions?

[GoldenCid]

Spot removal?

[meffeo]

Spot removal? The only thing that comes in my mind is Contagion but I don't run it for the same reason I don't run leyline in sideboard: mulligan to find it and consequently lose the chance to draw the 8th card and discard.

[GoldenCid]

Well there are just 2 cards left. They will be hard to find them anyway. Id suggest some dr targets but if you feel confortable with griselda i dont know what to say.

[meffeo]

Maybe something like the third flayer and a terastodon / ashen rider? Even if I prefer to use the dr for griselbrand, flayer, ggt, it could be an interesting suggestion.

Thanks for the tip!

[slave]

....I have two free slots. Any suggestions?

Dryad Arbor.
It's an enabler and a mana source postboard.
If you're not running Spy, there's little else I would suggest in front of the Arbor.
Don't mean to be a killjoy....:confused:

[Graf_Caligula]

What comes to mind is:

-Sickening Shoal against fatties

-Contagion against the smaller ones

-Baubles for extra draw

But as Slave said. Dryad Arbor seems the best choice for me, especially as a 2 of.

[meffeo]

The baubles is a great idea. Extra dredgers...

I played last week at a small tourney and something nice happened. Before my draw step my opponent casted a vendillion targetting me, I've putted a card on the bottom of the deck and... I dredged for 6 thanks to ggt. The room laughed out loudly.

[fashion]

hi all
first post on the source ;)
i have played first the spy list but i wasnt happy with the second an tird game lacking of anti hate cards so i have switshed to the griselbrand /arbor list with anti hate side board.

but , do we include the entire hate side board in (second and third game) and do we take cards out of the main board ?
thanx in advance
and sorry for my bad english ;)

[scottpou]

To me, the point of Ichorid is to be resilient through counter spells. I have focused my list to abusing my current meta which is overrun with tempo decks. By putting in 1 Darmor Dalvage it allows me to pull out those Bloodghasts when I need them at the end of the game.


2 Shambling Shell
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Dread Return
3 Griselbrand
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
4 Street Wraith
1 Ashen Rider
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Bloodghast

SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Reverent Silence
SB: 3 Forest
SB: 4 Chancellor of the Annex

Recently, someone surgically extracted my Griselbrand. So I Dread Returned Flayer and then Dread Returned Dryad Arbor causing 3 Bloodghasts to also trigger into the battlefield and killing my opponent with Flayer's ability. It was actually pretty cool to watch him get angry at that.

[fashion]

did some one tried this before? Call to the Netherworld?
discard using phantasmagiroan then return streetwrath or is using gitaxian probe better?

[Michael Keller]

I actually ran into a similar situation a while back at a Jupiter Games event. My opponent decided to Extract my Bridges as opposed to my Griselbrand. It made no difference as I was able to turn my deck sideways and get Flayer into Troll online for the win.

It really makes no difference at that point. You're either getting a horde of hungry zombies or a flying demon that will immediately turn your deck sideways.

[meffeo]

I just don't get why people don't use gitaxian probe.
It lead us the way towards an easy cabal therapy and it let us dredge from 3 to 6 cards.

Instead of 3 contagion and 1 sickening shoal I run 4 gitaxian, that usually go in sb for g2 and g3.

I don't run either the chancellor, my list is the same as hollywood, 3 griselbrand and 2 flayer.

My sb:
4 reverent silence
4 nature's claim (also because at the last tourney someone called phantasmagorian with a pithing needle)
4 mindbreak trap
3 forest (I don't run fetches 'cause I don't want to lose a land because of a stifle (which are usually directed to ichorids))

[Countertoplol]

I just don't get why people don't use gitaxian probe.
It lead us the way towards an easy cabal therapy and it let us dredge from 3 to 6 cards.

Instead of 3 contagion and 1 sickening shoal I run 4 gitaxian, that usually go in sb for g2 and g3.

I don't run either the chancellor, my list is the same as hollywood, 3 griselbrand and 2 flayer.

My sb:
4 reverent silence
4 nature's claim (also because at the last tourney someone called phantasmagorian with a pithing needle)
4 mindbreak trap
3 forest (I don't run fetches 'cause I don't want to lose a land because of a stifle (which are usually directed to ichorids))

I've never found probe to be necessary. I run chancellors in that spot and not once have I wished for one of then to be a probe. I play a lot of storm in addition to manaless, so I'm very comfortable with therapy and I don't need probe to be able to hit with it.

In the end it's a personal preference things, and I don't like having an extra counterable spell in the main when one of the main reasons for playing the deck is being uncounterable.

[meffeo]

In the end it's a personal preference things, and I don't like having an extra counterable spell in the main when one of the main reasons for playing the deck is being uncounterable.
The uncounterable reason is undeniable. You convinced me I'm gonna give the chancellors a try

[scottpou]

resilient through counter spells

I used to run Probes, but daze, spell pierce, etc got me angry. I only use Dredge when I know counter decks are rampant and I don't want to deal with fighting through them every round.

[JPoJohnson]

12th at SCG this last weekend:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=61232

[Final Fortune]

I just don't get why people don't use gitaxian probe.
It lead us the way towards an easy cabal therapy and it let us dredge from 3 to 6 cards.

Instead of 3 contagion and 1 sickening shoal I run 4 gitaxian, that usually go in sb for g2 and g3.

I don't run either the chancellor, my list is the same as hollywood, 3 griselbrand and 2 flayer.

My sb:
4 reverent silence
4 nature's claim (also because at the last tourney someone called phantasmagorian with a pithing needle)
4 mindbreak trap
3 forest (I don't run fetches 'cause I don't want to lose a land because of a stifle (which are usually directed to ichorids))

It's simple, because if you don't play Chancellor of the Annex you lose to Deathrite Shaman, and if you don't play Unmask you lose to combo. The deck already has a sufficiently fast clock ~turn 4 to race anything else.

I really, really dislike Contagion, mainly because losing 2 cards vs Deathrite Shaman is already a tripple Time Walk and doesn't guarantee the opponent can't follow it up with another Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Thoughtseize etc. to put you out of commission. Chancellof the Annex just says "no" to disruption and lets you start your engine unimpeded.

[meffeo]

It's simple, because if you don't play Chancellor of the Annex you lose to Deathrite Shaman, and if you don't play Unmask you lose to combo. The deck already has a sufficiently fast clock ~turn 4 to race anything else.

I really, really dislike Contagion, mainly because losing 2 cards vs Deathrite Shaman is already a tripple Time Walk and doesn't guarantee the opponent can't follow it up with another Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Thoughtseize etc. to put you out of commission. Chancellof the Annex just says "no" to disruption and lets you start your engine unimpeded.
Don't you think that the timewalk caused by a contagion is quite the same timewalk caused by an unmask?

I'm thinking what could I take out for make room for the unmasks in sb but I did not found an answer atm...

[Final Fortune]

Don't you think that the timewalk caused by a contagion is quite the same timewalk caused by an unmask?

I'm thinking what could I take out for make room for the unmasks in sb but I did not found an answer atm...

Vs combo hell no, you'll already have a Dredger in your 'yard and a chance to chain Dredge vs ANT etc. I've found it to be a case of "play these cards or you die" pretty much.

Unmask has nothing to do with Deathrite Shaman if that's what you're thinking.

[meffeo]

Vs combo hell no, you'll already have a Dredger in your 'yard and a chance to chain Dredge vs ANT etc. I've found it to be a case of "play these cards or you die" pretty much.

Unmask has nothing to do with Deathrite Shaman if that's what you're thinking.

I know that unmask has to do with combo decks ;)
I was thinking that contagion and unmask have to remove a black card from the hand, that's why I was talking about timewalk.

So you play the unmasks instead of the traps? Vs combo generally?

[ntropy]

Hey all! What do you tend to sideboard out in order to bring in the lands and answers plan? Do you trim the worst dredgers? Cut some beaters? Trim the DR package? I've been practicing with a maindeck and I like it, but it's time to start learning the sideboard. I'm running 3 Grisel/1 Flayer, Nether Shadows and Ichorids, Dryad Arbors and Chancellors, and of course the usual stuff. No Spies. I have a side board of 1 Fetch, 1 Bayou, 1 Forest, 4 Reverent Silence, 4 Nature's Claim, 3 Contagion, and 1 Sickening Shoal. I might cut the spot removal vs DRS since I run Chancellor, and try to shore up my Combo match with Unmasks or Mindbreak Traps, but for starters, what do I cut to bring in answers? Thanks!

[TableTopMagic]

Hey all! What do you tend to sideboard out in order to bring in the lands and answers plan? Do you trim the worst dredgers? Cut some beaters? Trim the DR package? I've been practicing with a maindeck and I like it, but it's time to start learning the sideboard. I'm running 3 Grisel/1 Flayer, Nether Shadows and Ichorids, Dryad Arbors and Chancellors, and of course the usual stuff. No Spies. I have a side board of 1 Fetch, 1 Bayou, 1 Forest, 4 Reverent Silence, 4 Nature's Claim, 3 Contagion, and 1 Sickening Shoal. I might cut the spot removal vs DRS since I run Chancellor, and try to shore up my Combo match with Unmasks or Mindbreak Traps, but for starters, what do I cut to bring in answers? Thanks!

Are you talking about cutting your spot removal all together?

[Final Fortune]

I know that unmask has to do with combo decks ;)
I was thinking that contagion and unmask have to remove a black card from the hand, that's why I was talking about timewalk.

So you play the unmasks instead of the traps? Vs combo generally?

The point is comparring Unmask to Contagion doesn't make sense because you Contagion on T1 to kill Deathrite Shaman where you Unmask on T2 in order to not die to Storm - big difference -

I play Unmask MD and Mindbreak Trap SB usually.

[meffeo]

I play Unmask MD and Mindbreak Trap SB usually.

I guess you play 4 Unmask. Instead of what maindeck?

[Karbunkelsopp]

I play unmask in sideboard as a 4-of. It has an additional surprise effect against opponents that put you on the play game 2 or 3 when you target yourself and discard grave troll. Priceless, although it doesn't come up that often...


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[Final Fortune]

I guess you play 4 Unmask. Instead of what maindeck?

Not sure what the 8 "flex" slots are for people these days, Dryad Arbor, Gitaxian Probe, Contagion or whatever bullshit people are playing in the deck I guess.

[meffeo]

Not sure what the 8 "flex" slots are for people these days, Dryad Arbor, Gitaxian Probe, Contagion or whatever bullshit people are playing in the deck I guess.

Then this will be your ideal list, without spot removal and answers to combo.deck in mb AND in sb:

Creatures:44
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
3 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Street Wraith
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Griselbrand

Spells:16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Unmask

Sideboard:15
3 Forest
4 Nature's Claim
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Reverent Silence

[ntropy]

That's about what I'm running, Meffeo, but I have Arbors instead of Unmasks. What do you side out to side in the Traps, and what do you side out to side in the Land + Answer Plan?

[Mr. Froggy]

12th at SCG this last weekend:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=61232

I like this list, but I can't see myself not running 4 Therapies main... Ever...