[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

[Final Fortune]

Not really, I refuse to waste a 2nd MD slot on the 2nd Flayer of the Hatebound, play 4 Shambling Shells and the 3/1 split of Balustrade Spy and Flayer of the Hatebound because my Griselbrands are busy doing other things in Sneak&Show.

My preffered SB right now is 4 Mindbreak Trap, 4 Leyline of Sanctity and the 3/4 Sickening Shoal/Contagion split, Im basically of the opinion that using the whole Forest/Answer SB in order to remove stuff like Rest in Peace is an entire fucking waste of time and that you should pretty much dedicate your entire SB to fixing up inherently bad match ups. Right now I'm pretty stuck on fixing up the Storm match up, anything with Deathrite Shaman and maybe Elves by extension.

Storm players' reaction to my SB has been pretty god damn hilarious, that match up is actually winnable even if they win the first game because you attack them from so many different angles starting from turn 0.

[Mr. Froggy]

Not really, I refuse to waste a 2nd MD slot on the 2nd Flayer of the Hatebound, play 4 Shambling Shells and the 3/1 split of Balustrade Spy and Flayer of the Hatebound because my Griselbrands are busy doing other things in Sneak&Show.

My preffered SB right now is 4 Mindbreak Trap, 4 Leyline of Sanctity and the 3/4 Sickening Shoal/Contagion split, Im basically of the opinion that using the whole Forest/Answer SB in order to remove stuff like Rest in Peace is an entire fucking waste of time and that you should pretty much dedicate your entire SB to fixing up inherently bad match ups. Right now I'm pretty stuck on fixing up the Storm match up, anything with Deathrite Shaman and maybe Elves by extension.

Storm players' reaction to my SB has been pretty god damn hilarious, that match up is actually winnable even if they win the first game because you attack them from so many different angles starting from turn 0.

Mind sharing your list?

[meffeo]

That's about what I'm running, Meffeo, but I have Arbors instead of Unmasks. What do you side out to side in the Traps, and what do you side out to side in the Land + Answer Plan?

Usually:

-4 Gitaxian Probe (because I don´t need the explosiveness)

If I have to side in more cards,

-4 Gitaxian Probe
-1/2 Griselbrand
-1 Flayer
-1 Nether Shadow

[Final Fortune]

Mind sharing your list?

Sure,

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Phantasmagorian

4 Street Wraith

4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below

4 Dread Return
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

SB

4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Contagion
3 Sickening Shoal

[Mr. Froggy]

Sure,

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Phantasmagorian

4 Street Wraith

4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below

4 Dread Return
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

SB

4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Contagion
3 Sickening Shoal

How has Unmask been for you?

[Final Fortune]

It's the difference between life and death vs combo, and it's good vs any form of aggro-control or control (No Umezawa's Jitte for you!). It's marginal vs aggro, but who cares about aggro anyway?

Basically play it if you want to win vs the format.

[Mr. Froggy]

Does the loss of Probe affect you? Or do you rather have proactive solutions to the meta?

[Final Fortune]

Does the loss of Probe affect you? Or do you rather have proactive solutions to the meta?

Not really, Manaless isn't exactly a deck that's supposed to race the opponent. You usually win by turn 4 or so, the most important thing is stopping them from winning before then.

[Mr. Froggy]

Thalia is a beating... like a kick in the nuts...

What's the best way to beat her? Try to avoid her I guess?

[P-E]

just do a ton of zombies like against gaddock

[AmokPL]

hmm how is Leyline of Sanctity working for you? It is a backbreaking card against Burn and other targeting decks but I was thinking....I mean we can't mulligan (at least we shouldn't) and if you don't get it with first hand (happens) do you take a gamble mulliganning (and possibly giving your opponent a Time Walk still not being sure you will get LoS) and hoping to get it with next hand or say forget it, I will play without it, then having four dead cards in your deck, and being one turn behind your opponent?

[Final Fortune]

hmm how is Leyline of Sanctity working for you? It is a backbreaking card against Burn and other targeting decks but I was thinking....I mean we can't mulligan (at least we shouldn't) and if you don't get it with first hand (happens) do you take a gamble mulliganning (and possibly giving your opponent a Time Walk still not being sure you will get LoS) and hoping to get it with next hand or say forget it, I will play without it, then having four dead cards in your deck, and being one turn behind your opponent?

Between Leyline of Sanctity, Chancellor of the Annex, Mindbreak Trap, Unmask and Cabal Therapy why would I have to mulligan to any one, individual form of disruption vs Storm?

[Mr. Froggy]

I've been playing my Manaless Dredge deck on MTGO and I like what I'm seeing. I even tried Unmask, and while I do miss the speed Probe gives sometimes, its been of really great help getting rid of problem cards.

EDIT: On a side note, I don’t like Chancellor MD at all, I feel it's such a dead card game 1.

What's your opinion on this?

[TableTopMagic]

Thalia is a beating... like a kick in the nuts...

What's the best way to beat her? Try to avoid her I guess?

Thalia and Thorn of Amethyst where the most common form's of hate I seen at the last SCG. (Everyone was packing for Storm) I was playing a Spy list so I had no access to mana at all. I won all those games with mass Army, but do you how frustrating it is to not be able to cast any flashback cards or Contagion? :mad:

This is why I am working on a build going back to Bloodghast and Dakmor Salvage. Relying less on the combo and more on just out resorting my opponent with my legions of undead. That is how I win most games anyway. I only combo out maybe 1/5 games, less so if against control and tempo.

[Final Fortune]

I've been playing my Manaless Dredge deck on MTGO and I like what I'm seeing. I even tried Unmask, and while I do miss the speed Probe gives sometimes, its been of really great help getting rid of problem cards.

EDIT: On a side note, I don’t like Chancellor MD at all, I feel it's such a dead card game 1.

What's your opinion on this?

You're wrong, play against Deathrite Shaman, go every game and you'll see why.

Regarding Gitaxian Probe, I go back and forth a lot on whether or not this deck wants/needs dedicated targets for Dread Return, because odd hate cards aside, reanimating a Golgari Grave Troll, Phantasmagorian or Chancellor of the Annex is already damn good. I've never done it because technically speaking it would give opponent's another angle of attack vs the deck, but provided they're not prepared vs the deck it'd be an interesting gambit to see whether or not 4 more business cards contributed positively to the win%

EDIT: Another option vs Thalia/Thorn is Wasteland, people laughed at me when I suggested Wasteland before, but your opponent's will never, ever expect you to play a Wasteland i.e. it's often a guaranteed Time Walk or cuts them off of their mana for Spell Pierce since they aggressively tap out and it's another disruption spell vs Storm and it taps for 1 mana to cast your spells thru' Sphere effects instantly as opposed to hoping they don't Wasteland your Dryad Arbor why you wait.

[Mr. Froggy]

You're wrong, play against Deathrite Shaman, go every game and you'll see why.

Regarding Gitaxian Probe, I go back and forth a lot on whether or not this deck wants/needs dedicated targets for Dread Return, because odd hate cards aside, reanimating a Golgari Grave Troll, Phantasmagorian or Chancellor of the Annex is already damn good. I've never done it because technically speaking it would give opponent's another angle of attack vs the deck, but provided they're not prepared vs the deck it'd be an interesting gambit to see whether or not 4 more business cards contributed positively to the win%

EDIT: Another option vs Thalia/Thorn is Wasteland, people laughed at me when I suggested Wasteland before, but your opponent's will never, ever expect you to play a Wasteland i.e. it's often a guaranteed Time Walk or cuts them off of their mana for Spell Pierce since they aggressively tap out and it's another disruption spell vs Storm and it taps for 1 mana to cast your spells thru' Sphere effects instantly as opposed to hoping they don't Wasteland your Dryad Arbor why you wait.

I had thought of DRS.. I get your point.

Also, the idea of Wasteland, I'm not opposed to it, but it seems a tad situational..

[Mr. Froggy]

I like Griselbrand a lot in this deck, even more so than Spy, don't have to go "all in" as much, I get to control when I go off.

[Final Fortune]

Oh I agree Griselbrand is the better Dread Return target, he just costs more and for me Manaless Dredge is just a dirt cheap deck I can always afford to have thrown together for whenever I'm feeling like being a complete dick. It doesn't really make a big difference as opposed to those 8 slots you use for Chancellor or Unmask.

[zulander]

Is it me or is the original post of the thread a little outdated?

What's considered the "core" of the deck now?

[Final Fortune]

My version if you want to win tournaments, altho' I'm really iffy if dedicated Dread Return targets are even necessary anymore because nobody plays Moat game 1 and you can just SB in Ashen Riders game 2 if anybody actually ever SBs those cards over just SBing even way worse shit like Grafdigger's Cage anyway. Chancellor of the Forge seems like really fucking good to me in those slots because it actually does something in your starting hand and the "overrun" effect is a possible one turn kill mechanism.

[Mr. Froggy]

Oh I agree Griselbrand is the better Dread Return target, he just costs more and for me Manaless Dredge is just a dirt cheap deck I can always afford to have thrown together for whenever I'm feeling like being a complete dick. It doesn't really make a big difference as opposed to those 8 slots you use for Chancellor or Unmask.

It is true that the 3 Griselbrands cost the same as an entire Spy-list, lol.

Also, I moved Unmask to the SB (just because I was finding room too tight in the deck), but kept Chancellor MB. I just felt like, to me anyway, I should just try to win G1 as quickly as possible, which made me add Dryad Arbor as extra fodder.

[Final Fortune]

Then enjoy losing all of your matches to Storm I guess. I don't really have anything against Dryad Arbor because at least it deals with Thalia, but you can still Ichorid beat down Thalia decks where you need all of the MD and SB cards you can get ahold in order to have a prayer of winning the Storm match up.

Anyway for what it's worth I'm pretty sure I'm right about cutting the 3/1 dedicated Dread Return targets for Chancellor of the Forge, mainly because the 1/1 token gives me better odds of flashing back Cabal Therapy turn 2 and between Golgari Grave Troll, Chancellor of the Annex and Chancellor of the Forge you always have a pretty good target to compliment whatever Ichorids, Nether Shadows and Zombie Tokens you have on the board. You don't even lose to Elephant Grass, which is a plus.

[Mr. Froggy]

Ouch... some matches are rough...

I had to scoop games 2&3 vs Junk because he mulled to LotV (I run nothing to destroy it in my SB)

I guess running this deck, things just happen like that.

[Final Fortune]

More or less, people can be just as unfair to you as you can be to them post-board, Dredge is just the kind of deck that hopes everyone is running their multi-purpose graveyard hate like Deathrite Shaman, Surgical Extraction or Relic of Progenitus instead of the absolute ball busters like Leyline of the Void, Rest in Piece or Grafdigger's Cage. That's why I think it's best as a supplimentary deck, I usually keep Affinity and a Storm variant on stand by and rape the format according to which way the metagame turns.

[Mr. Froggy]

My main deck is D&T, but I've always been a fan of "unfair" combo decks. And it costing $50 to build (with the Spies) made it even more attractive.

I noticed that with a Phantasmagorian, its pretty easy to play around a DRS, I was surprised.

[AmokPL]

My version

can't find it. I gave up after searching 15 pages back...

[Climax]

can't find it. I gave up after searching 15 pages back...

One page back would have been enough...
You even replied to it already.

btw. Final Fortune: How do you board all this cards in? I hardly can't take out 4 cards. Mind sharing your plan?

[Final Fortune]

One page back would have been enough...
You even replied to it already.

btw. Final Fortune: How do you board all this cards in? I hardly can't take out 4 cards. Mind sharing your plan?

Against Storm? Just SB out the dedicated Dread Return targets and shave off a Shambling Shell, Nether Spirit, Dread Return, Bridge from Below etc. Against anything with Deathrite Shaman just SB out Unmask and shave off singletons etc. There's usually one really bad card in the MD for a given match up and then you have to fiddle with a card here or there to make a bit of space after that.

[AmokPL]

One page back would have been enough...
You even replied to it already.


no idea how I managed to miss that :) thx

[Mr. Froggy]

Alright, my SB is:

4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Contagion
3 Faerie Macabre (are these still relevant?)

But I might want to try an answer SB, because on MTGO, I haven't run into many Storm decks yet

EDIT: Would anyone be willing to write a new Primer for the deck? I feel its somewhat outdated, or does it not really need a new one?

[Mr. Froggy]

Its decided, I like Griselbrand a lot more than Spy, and not just because of the answers he can get you games 2&3, I just won through both RiP and Leyline of Sanctity thanks to him. Also, I think Contagion is a great answer to DRS, so I removed the Chancellors from the MB, which means I'm pretty much running Hollywood's list and it still works wonders. Or maybe people just don't know how to play against it?

[Thrasher]

I prefer Chancellor by far. After playing contagion,assuming it resolves you'll end up with 6 cards in hand, which is not the best. Chancellor is uncounterable and doesn't reduce the number of cards in your hand. It's a creature for shadow, a good DR target and a decent way to disrupt omniscience after show and tell,too.

[Final Fortune]

Contagion is horrible, do you expect to resolve Contagion thru' Underground Sea, Deathrite Shaman, go when the opponent has Force of Will and/or Daze back up? I don't meant to be rude, but so far nobody who has suggested removing Unmask and/or Chancellor of the Annex has any idea WTF they are talking about. When you guys decide to stop being awful, maybe we could have a useful discussion like whether or not Griselbrand or Balustrade are even necessary compared to Chancellor of the Hearth, Dryad Arbor or Gitaxian Probe etc.

[Thrasher]

On the griselbrand topic: i'd not play without it in this metagame. Sneak and show is everywhere, being able to put griselbrand into play with s&t is invaluable, it wins the game by itself. I'm fine with the 1x Flayer, too, even though i side it out in most g2/3s. The red chancellor is nice, but,unlike griselbrand, it lacks the ability to win the game with just 3 creatures on the board and no bridges. It might take the Flayer's spot, but it won't really change that much. By the way, as Final Fortune said, don't cut Chancellor of the Annex,i'd say it's one of the strongest cards in this deck. Anybody who has played legacy enough knows how valuable the first turn is, revealing chancellor in the opening is a huge advantage.

[Mr. Froggy]

On the griselbrand topic: i'd not play without it in this metagame. Sneak and show is everywhere, being able to put griselbrand into play with s&t is invaluable, it wins the game by itself. I'm fine with the 1x Flayer, too, even though i side it out in most g2/3s. The red chancellor is nice, but,unlike griselbrand, it lacks the ability to win the game with just 3 creatures on the board and no bridges. It might take the Flayer's spot, but it won't really change that much. By the way, as Final Fortune said, don't cut Chancellor of the Annex,i'd say it's one of the strongest cards in this deck. Anybody who has played legacy enough knows how valuable the first turn is, revealing chancellor in the opening is a huge advantage.

I know Chancellor is good, but every time I play it (on MTGO) it feels like a dead card. I believe Phantasmagorian is the best answer to any crap people throw at the deck, I'll test some more though.

@Final Fortune: unless I'm mistaken, Hollywood has had some success with his build, which is why I decided on building it. The only thing I don't like is Noxious Revival and the 3 Nature's Claim in the SB.

I do like Unmask also, but game 1's I feel they're not nearly as good as in game 2&3.

Yes DRS is everywhere, I'll admit, but its not nearly as scary as everyone thinks. I was able to beat a deck last night that had pinned me down with a Turn 1 DRS Turn 2 Ooze. All you have to do is play carefully and you can win.

Alright, that's enough typing from my cellphone, if any of this doesn't make any sense I apologize.

[Final Fortune]

Ofcourse it'll feel like a dead card, you'd have to be sitting across it in order to understand its impact. To you it does "nothing," to your opponent it's really fucking annoying.

Also Dread Returning him is kind of a big deal vs Storm post-board.

[Mr. Froggy]

Ofcourse it'll feel like a dead card, you'd have to be sitting across it in order to understand its impact. To you it does "nothing," to your opponent it's really fucking annoying.

Also Dread Returning him is kind of a big deal vs Storm post-board.

What I meant by "dead card" is if I don't draw it in my opener, its basically a stick in the mud. At least Contagion has value post-opening hand (if I ever do draw cards off the top, mind you). I guess I'll test more to see, but as of yet I don't really like it.

On another note, this is my 400th post on The Source. I've never posted nearly as much on any other MTG forum without being bored of the community.

[Mr. Froggy]

Alright, I'll admit, Chancellor of the Annex really helps.. :(

I'll admit I was wrong about it, because of Chancellor I was able to outrace one of the fastest decks in the format (Belcher).

Also playing Manaless, I've gotten so good with Cabal Therapies, my snap-calls are so much better than they used to be.

[Final Fortune]

The more you play the archetype the more you'll realize my build is the correct build, the problem with Dredge is that people spend too much time asking the wrong questions like "what Dread Return target should I use" instead of asking the right questions like "how do I improve my matchup % vs a given archetype"

I'm not going to say Chancellor of the Forge is strictly better than Griselbrand, but between Chancellor of the Annex, Golgari Grave Troll, Phantasmagorian and Chancellor of the Forge I think the deck has enough Dread Return targets to get a lot of value out of Dread Return regardless of whether or not it automatically wins the game and the free, turn 0 token increases the odds of a turn 2 Cabal Therapy significantly and adds +2 damage. At this point, I'm nigh convinced that the most important goal of Manaless Dredge is get to the point where its turn 1 win percentage is as good as it can get vs combo in order to make the deck viable in the metagame. Because Manaless Dredge appears to be the best Dredge deck in the format, being able to shrug off ~7 MD hate cards like 4 Deathrite Shaman and 3 Surgical Extraction and requiring specifically either Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace or Grafdigger's Cage in order to be shut down completely (or Moat, Propaganda etc. in the absence of Flayer of the Hatebound)

I think it's very possible that Legacy Dredge could be just as threatening as Vintage Dredge to the metagame if it can withstand Storm and Show&Tell, it'll always fold to Reanimator but Reanimator folds to the same hate Dredge does and folds much harder.

[Thrasher]

@Final Fortune:
That post surely makes sense, but i don't agree with everything.

Playing Griselbrand is not my answer to "what Dread Return target should I use", it answers "how do I improve my matchup % vs a given archetype". I know pretty well the metagame where i play, that's why i still think that playing griselbrand is the best choice i can do now. It's been really useful both against elves and show and tell, which are by no means easy matchups. Winning on the spot against elves makes a big difference: what if they just go for order/gsz/regal force for the win in the turn you give them? What if the 7/7 lifelink body saves you? Just to point it out, i'm not theorizing, what i am saying has happened in the last 3 tournaments i've played with the deck. My record with show and tell is decent thanks to Griselbrand and Chancellor, and i've won a couple of games because griselbrand's lifelink let me survive a craterhoof behemoth in my opponent's last useful turn. As i said in my previous post, griselbrand wins you games when you don't have bridges in your grave, which is something no other creature does. It pitches to ichorid, too, but that's a minor thing.

Would i play Chancellor of the Forge if there were less S&T and elves? Maybe. Griselbrand would still have its pros, but,as you said, Chancellor of the Forge enables some good t1 plays. By the way, looking at your list i noticed that you (used to)play Balustrade Spy. Have you tested Griselbrand,too?

@Mr. Froggy:
That's true! My friends hate me for my blind therapies.

[Final Fortune]

I've played everything, I took up Spy because it was cheap and it didn't make much if any difference over Griselbrand.

[Thrasher]

I see.To each is own, then.

[Mr. Froggy]

I feel Griselbrand can win games on his own, which is great.

He lets you decide when you can go off, while not making you commit to "one final turn".

[Final Fortune]

The point is that it's marginal and doesn't really define the deck, like I said people put too much time into worrying about the shit that doesn't matter like jizzing in the opponent's face with Griselbrand or Balustrade Spy instead of getting blown first. That's why I'm kind of leaning towards Chancellor of the Forge being the right call, a card that does something by itself when you draw it in your opening hand and increases the speed at which you either Cabal Therapy their hand or Dread Return any threat is always good where Dread Returning Griselbrand "RAWR" is often over kill and the card doesn't fucking do anything else in the deck.

I'm sure there are extreme situations where Dread Returning Griselbrand was your only out, but how do you calculate those extreme situations vs just reliably Therapying your opponent on turn 2, Dread Returning reliably turn 3 or swinging for +2 damage? Like I said, people are kind of stupid and biased and remembler all of the awesome Griselbrand combo kills, but they rarely bother to come up with the statistical date of the increased % to Cabal Therapy/Dread Return chance based on the token and I can assure you Dread Returning Chancellor of the Forge onto the board isn't exactly a joke either.

It's kind of like Dryad Arbor, except you get to keep your 8 card hand size and have another toy to bring back from the bin. And considering you never really play with Griselbrand post-board, a card that you could potentially keep post-board across a 3 game match may be more valuable in the long run especially against decks like Snapcaster Mage/Surgical Extraction where you don't really have anything good to board in anyway and Griselbrand is a brick without Dread Return if it gets RFGed.

[Mr. Froggy]

The point is that it's marginal and doesn't really define the deck, like I said people put too much time into worrying about the shit that doesn't matter like jizzing in the opponent's face with Griselbrand or Balustrade Spy instead of getting blown first. That's why I'm kind of leaning towards Chancellor of the Forge being the right call, a card that does something by itself when you draw it in your opening hand and increases the speed at which you either Cabal Therapy their hand or Dread Return any threat is always good where Dread Returning Griselbrand "RAWR" is often over kill and the card doesn't fucking do anything else in the deck.

I'm sure there are extreme situations where Dread Returning Griselbrand was your only out, but how do you calculate those extreme situations vs just reliably Therapying your opponent on turn 2, Dread Returning reliably turn 3 or swinging for +2 damage? Like I said, people are kind of stupid and biased and remembler all of the awesome Griselbrand combo kills, but they rarely bother to come up with the statistical date of the increased % to Cabal Therapy/Dread Return chance based on the token and I can assure you Dread Returning Chancellor of the Forge onto the board isn't exactly a joke either.

It's kind of like Dryad Arbor, except you get to keep your 8 card hand size and have another toy to bring back from the bin. And considering you never really play with Griselbrand post-board, a card that you could potentially keep post-board across a 3 game match may be more valuable in the long run especially against decks like Snapcaster Mage/Surgical Extraction where you don't really have anything good to board in anyway and Griselbrand is a brick without Dread Return if it gets RFGed.

Wasn't it tested before with less-than-stellar results though?

Also, what are your thoughts on Leyline in the SB? Is it really worth it? This is a deck that can't really afford to mulligan too aggressively, so I'm curious.

[Final Fortune]

As far as I recall it was never tested and the 4 combo slots harking all the way back to 4 Cephalid Sage/Flame Kin Zealots have always been gospel, and I've been playing this deck longer than anyone else I know of.

Yes Leyline of Sanctity is worth it, it may as well be a free win vs ANT if you draw it and if they Chain of Vapor it you go back to 8 cards in hand immediately. If they do anything else, you've bought yourself a turn(s) to Unmask or find a Cabal Therapy. Everything about this deck is about buying time, once you get rolling you've pretty much won the resource war.

[Thrasher]

Just in case it helps,i have done 50 goldfishes with and without Chancellor of the Forge. I know 50 isn't much, but i didn't have much time.
T1 therapies without chancellor: 16/50
T1 therapies with chancellor: 22/50

I checked my last report,too. I have reanimated griselbrand 4 times in 12 games, with it being the only out in 2 of those 4 games. It's indeed marginal, but it did its job. Sadly i have nothing about the 400+ people tournament i did before, i just remember i stole a game against s&t thanks to griselbrand.

Dread returning Chancellor of the forge is not a joke if you have bridges. If you're playing against a decent opponent (s)he'll try to exile them. Reanimating chancellor leaves you with a 5/5(which can be stp'ed) and one,maybe two 1/1 haste. I know people who have not played the deck much are more the "yeee, pay 7 life, combo, ha-ha" kind, but that's not a reason to cut Griselbrand in my list.

What about Dryad Arbor vs Chancellor? Dryad triggers bridge, the token doesn't. You get to choose when to play Dryad, Chancellor only works in your first upkeep. The token can be bolted, playing dryad arbor means that you won't have to pass priority before playing therapy. Chancellor is a decent DR target and leaves you with 8 cards in hand, though.

[Final Fortune]

The thing is that Chancellor of the Forge is never your only Dread Return target, I routinely Dread Return Chancellor of the Annex and 99% of aggro-control decks can not deal with that (ala Lightning Bolt or Abrupt Decay) and the control decks that can deal with that (ala Swords to Plowshares) have no way to kill their own creatures so Chancellor of the Forge becomes a serious wrecking machine.

Dryad Arbor might be better than Chancellor of the Forge in hand but it's strictly worse in the graveyard as a Dread Return target.

It merrits a lot of testing, vs Elves I could see it being a problem pre-board, but 4 Contagion and 3 Sickening Shoal is a lot of hate vs Elves post-board and increasing the odds of Cabal Therapying by ~40% on T2 is really huge if that's accurate.

[Thrasher]

I don't think those goldfishes are too reliable, but i guess they give a rough idea of how it works. I should split between the "forced" Therapies (when i force the discard with phantasmagorian, something i wouldn't always do in a real game) and the clean ones. I'll do a more accurate test when i'll be back home, at least with more than 50 goldfishes.

On another note,i'm currently playing a different sideboard focused on both answering storm and rip. I've done a quite accurate testing for that, but it's kinda heretic,so i'll share it as soon as i have the time to write something decent to support it. Still, i manage to get ~ 55% of openings with an answer to rip, so i guess it can't be worse than playing lands & claims.

[AmokPL]

On another note,i'm currently playing a different sideboard focused on both answering storm and rip. I've done a quite accurate testing for that, but it's kinda heretic,so i'll share it as soon as i have the time to write something decent to support it. Still, i manage to get ~ 55% of openings with an answer to rip, so i guess it can't be worse than playing lands & claims.

really looking forward to see that sb.

[meffeo]

really looking forward to see that sb.

+1

[Mr. Froggy]

really looking forward to see that sb.

Has me really interested as well, care to share?

[Thrasher]

All right. Back when i started with the deck i used to play the "green" sideboard. That strategy sometimes actually removes the hate, but i almost never won the game after that: ending up with an empty grave and 6 cards in hand definitely sucks. What i needed was something that could remove rip and leave me with a dredger. Basically, after a big tournament in september, i found myself thinking: "Would i have won if i had had Force of Will?". The answer was "yes".

Countering rip means that you'll be able to discard in your first cleanup step, counter the hate and dredge the turn after. That seems better than "play a land,cast the antihate, wait 2 turns, dredge". Furthermore, you don't have to play garbage such as Forest in the sideboard, meaning that you'll be able to play a proper sideboard, without wasting 11 slots for rip/cage. The blue antihate requires just 8 pieces, and they're much more flexible than the green ones. Force of Will works very well against storm, too, and we all know that it isn't a great matchup, the other one, Disrupting Shoal, is strictly worse than FoW, basically it's a FoW with 7 pitches(4 narcomoeba, 3 other Shoals).

So, here it is.
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Force of Will
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Flex Slots, i'm currently trying Faerie Macabre, the number of reanimator decks is increasing, where i play.

How it works:
Basically, you must play 4 Gitaxian Probe MD, so that you end up with 8 blue cards.

VS Grave Hate:

Force and Shoal are sided in together only for rip or cage (against cage shoal becomes significantly worse, though). Diluting the deck versus relic or crypt is just dumb, as there's no need to counter them. Siding in the counters means:
1. Removing the combo kill. Never cut the dredgers. Countering rip and dying due to no dredgers sucks.
2. Remove some DR's. That's needed, you can win with bridges, specially against an opponent who "wasted" a turn playing his hate.
3. Cut something else to reach 60 cards. Adding Mindbreak Trap works if you want more pitches. Most of the times you'll need to counter just one piece of hate, that's why 16 blue cards should be enough.

VS Storm:

4 Force + 4 Mindbreak are nuts. Basically you get to play the control deck until you strip your opponent's hand with therapies. Never side out Chancellors or Therapies. Griselbrand + Flayer are easy side-outs. Chancellor of the Annex is just better versus storm.

VS Omnitell:

Player: I'll cast show and tell.
Me: That's fine.
Player puts Omniscience.
I put Griselbrand.
Player: I'll cast EtE.
Me: I'll pay 14 life, draw 14, force your EtE.

This has happened more than once in my tests, it was hilarious. This works because often omnitell players will have to play S&T, because Dream Halls is just not fast enough.

VS Elves.

Now, this is tricky. I don't wanna lose 100% against reanimator, so i had to cut contagion&Sickening Shoal. Force sure helps against the problematic stuff (they usually can't win without a huge GSZ, Order/Behemoth,glimpse), covering even something removal can't, but pitching a black card is a lot easier.



Does this SB completely solve the grave-hate problem? Definitely not, it still has flaws(mainly it can get daze'd or fow'ed), but i think it's the best if you don't wanna die to random hate and if you wanna have a good shot at beating storm.

Feedback is appreciated, as long as it's not stupid stuff coming from a lack of testing. Thank you.

[Mr. Froggy]

I find your SB very interesting, but isn't the point of Manaless no interactivity between players?

[Final Fortune]

I've tried Force of Will before with limited success, the problem is that the 12-16 blue cards are always really, really bad i.e. Disrupting Shoal and Gitaxian Probe forces you to cut either Chancellor of the Annex, Unmask or your combo finisher and either of the first two reduces your disruption vs Storm game 1. I don't think it's unplayable, but all of the free black creature removal does a better job at handling Deathrite Shaman than Force of Will and Disrupting Shoal does at handling Rest in Peace, and with a deck like this I think you just have to resolve yourself to taking a Leyline of the Void, Rest in Piece or Grafdigger's Cage on the chin every once and awhile and just hope you get thru' your pairings in a tournament. I don't want to say the deck is a glass cannon, because it's definitely not, but if people want to hate you out of the metagame with very specific hate cards they will. It's kind of like Affinity, everybody is terrified of Hurkyl's Recall, except nobody actually plays Hurkyl's recall. In the case of Dredge, RIP is already leaving the MD of Miracles because True Name Nemesis has dethroned Tarmogoyf as king dingaling, so I think focus firing Deathrite Shaman is the way to go because it's the most achievable card to fight back against.

Nothing is better vs Reanimator than Faerie Macabre, maybe Leyline of the Void if they aren't expecting it. I've gone with the black Leyline a couple of times when that Hermit Druid deck was really popular online, it irritates ANT well too which is a plus. You may want to go with that.

[Thrasher]

@Mr. Froggy: We already have interaction: Cabal therapy, Unmask, Chancellor of the Annex, Mindbreak Trap. You can't win versus storm/elves/reanimator without interacting.


@Final Fortune: I see your point. I usually don't have problems with Deathrite Shaman, i have 13 outs to it maindeck, that's why i didn't dedicate any sb slot to it. I did perfectly fine at small tournaments without running Fow's, but in bigger tournaments i often find at least 2-3 decks playing rip, which means i'll hardly top8. Since manaless is my main deck i want a way to be able to deal with a variegated metagame, just to be able to play it in big tournaments when you can't really predict the metagame perfectly. The metagame here is still evolving, i often see team america and some reanimator. The number of nemesis is definitely increasing, though (I love that, seeing an opponent that taps out is always great). Hopefully the number of rip will decrease.

Leyline doesn't seem a bad idea at all, i wonder if the card disadvantage hurts. I think it deserves a test.

By the way, i did 50 more goldfishes with the red chancellor and got similar results. The thing is getting interesting. Being able to therapy reliably on turn 2 would help a lot the combo matchup, i guess. I'd say it requires more tests, but it looks promising. Not strictly better than Griselbrand+Flayer, but it's got some points in his favor.

[Final Fortune]

It's not a combo finisher, but it's not a bad Dread Return target either and considering the utility it gives you in your oppening hand being able to Cabal Therapy on T2 and Dread Return on T3 reliably it doesn't have to be in order to win you the game. I'm very much in favor of this card, it quietly wins games on T2/T3 instead of loudly wins games on T4. I can't say it's strictly better, but considering our end game is god worthy, I think it's really important to focus on the cards that prevent the opponent from killing us before we can reach said end game.

I may be over SBing vs Deathrite Shaman honestly, I just get that "Die mother fucker, die mother fucker die" song from Office Space stuck in my head whenever I see one of those resolve. I may try something like 4 Mindbreak Trap, 3 Leyline of Sanctity, 4 Leyline of the Void, 4 Contagion for slightly more diversity. I feel a lot better about leaving Chancellor of the Forge in the MD post-board than the combo kill package because it actually still does stuff if you draw it and they RFG your Dread Returns etc.

The deck feels really solid, I definitely think I can take a match away from ANT quite easily, the SB could deal with Hermit.dec savagely if I wanted it to and that really only leaves Belcher as your worst combo match up followed by TES.

Our natural predator is always going to be Reanimator, but in the environments where it's right to play Manaless Dredge i.e. Deathrite Shaman and Surgical Extraction galore, then Dredge is the better graveyard deck vs that hate.

[Mr. Froggy]

Played vs TurboEldrazi on MTGO;
Game 1 was really one-sided in my favor, even if I saw my first dredger 3-4 cards down
Game 2 I came back from 30 card Bojuka Bog (but he got me with a 2nd)
Game 3 I had the combo for Dread Return into Griselbrand, but I was scared of Crop Rotation to Bojuka Bog so I Therapy with 3 creatures (Shadow, Shadow, Narcomoeba) naming Crop Rotation (he had 4 cards in hand) and see Land, Land, Land, Bojuka Bog -_-

Damn it...

Was so close...

[Michael Keller]

I think I'm going to chime in on this later.

[Mr. Froggy]

I think I'm going to chime in on this later.

Would be of great help, really. Need some tips on playing the deck.

[P-E]

For TurboEldrazi, leyline of sanctity helps against them until they can repeal it but most of times it's enough

[Mr. Froggy]

Played vs Dredge (not Manaless) on MTGO,

Game 1, I won pretty easily, I thought he had me until he Breakthroughs while having no Dredgers in his graveyard, so in the end he scoops
Game 2, Turn 0 LotV for my opp, tried to get a draw by picking off his dudes, but in the end he overwhelmed me
Game 3, I had Griselbrand in play on turn 3, was Dredging my ass off, MTGO loses connection to server... -_-

FML

Was so close, again.. -_-

EDIT: How do I embed videos? Link to YouTube I guess?

[Mr. Froggy]

Alright, so I decided to upload some videos of me playing the deck on MTGO, tell me what you think of the plays?

And no, no audio, I hate watching games on MTGO and being bothered by random music or people calling out the plays they make.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq77Ukzff5U

This is the first game, the others are also uploaded.

[Mr. Froggy]

Alright, I've decided after having played the deck for a while, I don't like having Unmask. I find that if you can't win with 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Chancellor, 4 Trap and 4 Leyline, maybe there's something wrong. I'm not saying its a bad card, just not one I find very useful in the meta right now.

[Final Fortune]

Alright, I've decided after having played the deck for a while, I don't like having Unmask. I find that if you can't win with 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Chancellor, 4 Trap and 4 Leyline, maybe there's something wrong. I'm not saying its a bad card, just not one I find very useful in the meta right now.

Then you don't understand its purpose, Unmask is in the deck game 1 in order for you to reach game 2 with as high of a win% vs combo as possible while also being useful vs aggro-control for resolving Dread Return and believe it or not but 16 sources of interaction between Chancellor, which only sets them back a turn, Trap which they have Silence and Therapy for, Therapy which they have Silence for and Leyline of Sanctity/Void which they have bounce for actually isn't enough because you need about 20 sources of interaction with multiple angles of attack, discard, counter, permanents in order to turn the whole match into an overall positive match up.

Basically, I don't think there's any card that's going to contribute to your game 1 win percentage more than Unmask, Dryad Arbor or Gitaxian Probe may be useful for increasing the speed at which you Cabal Therapy/Dread Return or Dredge but when you think about it all of those cards create tempo in one way or another because they either hasten what you're trying to do or delay what they are trying to do. The key difference tho' is that you do not kill your opponent on average before turn 4 on the draw where combo does kill you on average by turn 3 on the play (all Storm variants IMO) so it's crucial to prefer disruption as opposed to acceleration in manaless dredge because vs our inevitability every deck has to play the beat down role against us.

All I can say is play against Storm with manaless dredge pre-board and you'll see the obvious difference, then you'll realize the card is still pretty good vs aggro-control and nobody cares about aggro anyway.

[Mr. Froggy]

Then you don't understand its purpose, Unmask is in the deck game 1 in order for you to reach game 2 with as high of a win% vs combo as possible while also being useful vs aggro-control for resolving Dread Return and believe it or not but 16 sources of interaction between Chancellor, which only sets them back a turn, Trap which they have Silence and Therapy for, Therapy which they have Silence for and Leyline of Sanctity/Void which they have bounce for actually isn't enough because you need about 20 sources of interaction with multiple angles of attack, discard, counter, permanents in order to turn the whole match into an overall positive match up.

Basically, I don't think there's any card that's going to contribute to your game 1 win percentage more than Unmask, Dryad Arbor or Gitaxian Probe may be useful for increasing the speed at which you Cabal Therapy/Dread Return or Dredge but when you think about it all of those cards create tempo in one way or another because they either hasten what you're trying to do or delay what they are trying to do. The key difference tho' is that you do not kill your opponent on average before turn 4 on the draw where combo does kill you on average by turn 3 on the play (all Storm variants IMO) so it's crucial to prefer disruption as opposed to acceleration in manaless dredge because vs our inevitability every deck has to play the beat down role against us.

All I can say is play against Storm with manaless dredge pre-board and you'll see the obvious difference, then you'll realize the card is still pretty good vs aggro-control and nobody cares about aggro anyway.

It's just I have barely seen any Storm on MTGO, there are odd times when I do, don't get me wrong. I've run more often into Elves! as a combo deck then any flavor of Storm (I'm not even lying). If I run into it more, maybe it warrants being played, IMO. Just right now, I feel like I should tune it to what I normally see on MTGO (since its pretty much all I can use to test now, until I move that is).

Unmask is powerful, I'll give you that, I just don't want to take the chance of 3-for-1 (since it can make me lose 3 turns if my opp. has FoW or somesuch) myself on the off-chance I play vs Storm. If the decks pick up more on MTGO, I'll run it. For now though, since its so rare I see it, I think its wise to leave them in the SB. And anyway, vs Storm, I don't see any real point in trying to win G1 (we do that to every other deck pretty much), we just need to attack them where it hurts G2&3 and go from there. Testing will tell.

Now, Final Fortune, if you run Storm on MTGO, I'd be more than happy to test with you, since it could help me play vs the deck.

On a side note, I played vs Storm (run by WotC_JohnW), I won without Unmask by Therapying his 2 LEDs in hand he was holding to combo off, long story short; he scooped.

Also, my list:

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[3x] Shambling Shell
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[3x] Contagion
[1x] Sickening Shoal
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Dread Return
[3x] Griselbrand
[2x] Flayer of the Hatebound
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex

and SB:
[4x] Leyline of Sanctity
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[1x] Sickening Shoal
[3x] Unmask

As you can see, its kind of a mix between a Spy and Griselbrand list.

The SB has been really good for me, except Unmask. I just need to play vs Storm more often, though.

An MVP of the deck I find is Contagion, its just so versatile its crazy.

Thoughts?

[Thrasher]

I really don't understand the point of the 2nd Flayer. It's just another dead card who doesn't help in the vast majority of cases.

If you see a lot of elves then go for contagion&shoal, otherwise run unmask. It's not just useful vs storm, it helps vs show and tell,blue based, it gives useful information in any matchup. Unmask can strip NO/Zenith from the elves! player's hand too, don't underestimate that.

[Final Fortune]

Tripple Time Walk? You aren't casting Unmask on turn one are you? What player holds double LED vs a deck with Cabal Therapy? I'd be real careful about judging the necessity of the card based on misplaying it or your opponent making bad decisions and letting you win regardless.

[Mr. Froggy]

@Thrasher The 2nd Flayer ensures I hit one, without needing to flip the whole deck over. Doing this gives the deck so much residency, its crazy.

@Final Fortune I always go DDD, unless I "need" to mulligan a horrible opening hand. I just feel because we only put one dredger in the graveyard per turn (on average) I just time walk myself if I ever do cast Unmask. You don't get crazy Street Wraith openers all the time, letting you chain your dredges.

I'm not denying it's power, I know it has plenty. I just don't see it having much use for the online meta.

And vs blue, you should be winning anyway, without the need for the discard. Just reanimate all your guys and swing, no need to Dread Return anything.

EDIT: I just went on mtggolfish, and it says that storm is 10% of the meta, and yet I hardly run into any.

[Thrasher]

Why wouldn't you want to flip your deck over? Most of the times you reanimate Flayer after griselbrand, which means you should be able to find that 1-of. And even if you don't you can pay 7 more or just strip your opponent's hand with therapies and reanimate triple Chancellor of the Annex. It seems a waste of a slot, to me.

[Final Fortune]

Yeah I call bull shit on "you should be winning vs blue anyway," I can't even begin to tell you how many games I have won by discarding their Brainstorms and Ponders in order to keep them from digging for Surgical Extraction, Rest in Peace, Grafdigger's Cage etc. The value of the card vs aggro-control goes way up post-board.

[Mr. Froggy]

Why wouldn't you want to flip your deck over? Most of the times you reanimate Flayer after griselbrand, which means you should be able to find that 1-of. And even if you don't you can pay 7 more or just strip your opponent's hand with therapies and reanimate triple Chancellor of the Annex. It seems a waste of a slot, to me.

I play Griselbrand because I can control when I go off, and how much I go off. This helps especially G2&3 when my opponents side in graveyard hate. Game 1, I go all-in, as Dredge should do, but games 2&3 I play more conservatively, which allows me to come back from multiple Crypts & Relics & Faeries & Extractions (and if I play vs RiP, no matter if I had run Unmask or not, I scoop).

@Final Fortune I'd like to see some of your games, if possible that is (if you play on MTGO).

[Thrasher]

I always side Flayer out, versus grave hate. It's a card that requires you to reanimate Griselbrand to be effective, which is not something you'll be able to do easily. Also, you'll almost never lose if you manage to reanimate Griselbrand, even versus hate, Flayer is often unnecessary. You won't be able do it versus crypt,relic,leyline,rip,nihil spellbomb.This means that, after reanimating Griselbrand you'll have to worry only about extractions. Just dredge your whole library minus 2/3 cards, that will be enough. Then,even after a surgical, you'll have bridges/therapies/returns. If your 1x is in the last 2/3 cards, well, you're unlucky, but you still have 2/3 turns to win, which is not that hard with a filled grave.

[Mr. Froggy]

I always side Flayer out, versus grave hate. It's a card that requires you to reanimate Griselbrand to be effective, which is not something you'll be able to do easily. Also, you'll almost never lose if you manage to reanimate Griselbrand, even versus hate, Flayer is often unnecessary. You won't be able do it versus crypt,relic,leyline,rip,nihil spellbomb.This means that, after reanimating Griselbrand you'll have to worry only about extractions. Just dredge your whole library minus 2/3 cards, that will be enough. Then,even after a surgical, you'll have bridges/therapies/returns. If your 1x is in the last 2/3 cards, well, you're unlucky, but you still have 2/3 turns to win, which is not that hard with a filled grave.

vs Grave hate I usually side out 1 Flayer, 1 -2 Griselbrand, and 1-2 Dread Return (depending on match up, obviously)

[ntropy]

I've been enjoying Chancellor of the Forge. It's nice to have another card that does things early on, and it is another effective DR target. It seems to make the deck grindier because you have more early Therapies and no combo finish. I have Griselbrands that I was using, and I don't think there is a huge speed or consistency difference in the late game, while the here are noticeable benefits in the early turns. The one situation that wants Griselbrands is when your first dredge sets up a DR next turn, without bridges or other creatures. Griselbrand is good just as a blind reanimation target in any situation, while Chancellor is more circumstantial, but I feel that this doesn't come up much because Grave-Troll and Chancellor of the Annex are good on their own, so you generally have a target.

[Final Fortune]

I've been enjoying Chancellor of the Forge. It's nice to have another card that does things early on, and it is another effective DR target. It seems to make the deck grindier because you have more early Therapies and no combo finish. I have Griselbrands that I was using, and I don't think there is a huge speed or consistency difference in the late game, while the here are noticeable benefits in the early turns. The one situation that wants Griselbrands is when your first dredge sets up a DR next turn, without bridges or other creatures. Griselbrand is good just as a blind reanimation target in any situation, while Chancellor is more circumstantial, but I feel that this doesn't come up much because Grave-Troll and Chancellor of the Annex are good on their own, so you generally have a target.

Generally I feel the same way, Chancellor of the Forge improves your Storm match up by enabling faster Cabal Therapies and altho' it doesn't end the game immediately it does enable faster Dread Returns as well which equates to a faster Chancellor of the Annex vs Storm or a quicker beat down strategy with Golgari Grave Troll, Phantasmagorian, Chancellor of the Forge etc.

I've liked it so much in my MD that I rarely SB it out compared to Griselbrand, which is a good sign, and I've replaced Leyline of Sanctity with Leyline of the Void in order to improve my matchup vs Hermit Druid, Reanimator and the mirror while still having some effect vs ANT, not losing much ground vs TES overall and only losing significant ground vs Belcher.

I've also cut the 3 Sickening Shoal from my SB, 4 Contagion seems to be enough to replace Unmask in the Elves, Jund and Junk match ups and I think I'm going to try 3 Faerie Macabre in order to have a chance in hell vs Reanimator.

[Mr. Froggy]

I've liked it so much in my MD that I rarely SB it out compared to Griselbrand, which is a good sign, and I've replaced Leyline of Sanctity with Leyline of the Void in order to improve my matchup vs Hermit Druid, Reanimator and the mirror while still having some effect vs ANT, not losing much ground vs TES overall and only losing significant ground vs Belcher.

Did you switch because of the MTGO meta?

[Final Fortune]

Did you switch because of the MTGO meta?

I try not to make my SB choices on any one particular meta, I try to identify my weakest match ups that I believe are still winnable with utilitarian SB cards and prepare for those specifically. So I tend to disregard a deck like RIP Miracles entirely, which causes you to dedicate your entire SB to it for a poor chance of winning and concentrate on Storm which I think I can win pre/post-board and now Reanimator/Hermit druid which I think with enough hate cards I could claw back some EV from.

So look at it like this, if a deck like RIP Miracles is popular than I'm not playing Dredge at all, and if I do play Dredge then I concentrate on the cards that I can most easily address i.e. MD Deathrite Shaman in a meta absent of MD RIP or the archetypes I can most easily address i.e. linear combo with 0cc cards that doesn't cause my MD and SB to go into contortions by trying to do so i.e. why play 4 MD Dryad Arbor and 15 SB cards to address RIP/Leyline when I could play MD Unmask, SB Mindbreak Trap and have another 11 cards that actually do things vs a variety of match ups in comparison.

To put it simply, if I wanted to just beat Show&Tell, I could put 15 permanents that CIP to destroy something in my SB and probably win the match up. But that's too linear vs any metagame, so instead you tend to focus on cards like Mindbreak Trap -> Storm, Hermit Druid or Leyline of the Void -> ANT, Hermit Druid, Reanimator or Contagion -> anything with Deathrite Shaman, Elves and try to hit a good cross section of decks that could give you a difficult time. Right now Faerie Macabre is the most linear SB card I'm playing because I'm trying to see whether or not Reanimator is beatable at all, otherwise I might try something like a Darksteel Colossus as 1 card to short out a deck with a mill kill condition like Painter or 3 Angel of Despair to irritate Show&Tell and hedge against any kind of wonky hate that shuts down the attack step.

[Mr. Froggy]

How has Leyline of the Void been for you? I was thinking of adding it as well, cutting LoS.

[Final Fortune]

How has Leyline of the Void been for you? I was thinking of adding it as well, cutting LoS.

It has been decent, I see a lot of ANT and Hermit Druid online and I've managed to steal a game or two from unprepared Reanimator players who SB in more counter magic instead of bounce or Show&Tell. I think it's the right call, because even if you split evenly vs ANT/Hermit and TES/Belcher you pick up a free win button vs Dredge and possibly vs Reanimator if they're playing Show&Tell instead of direct answers to hate. I'm pretty pessimistic that it's just a cheap trick vs Reanimator that wont last, but you still get to rake other Dredge decks over the coals so it seems like an overall plus.

[Mr. Froggy]

Alright, I think I'll try it out and tell you what I think of it.

[Mr. Froggy]

I've been getting good results with the deck on MTGO (ie: more wins than losses) vs many different decks in the meta. I think Manaless still has what it takes to be good in Legacy, until more decks decide to pack RiP MB, and extra grave-hate in the side.

I think that, even if DRS is running all over the place, he's not unbeatable (by a long shot) although I was scared of him when I decided to build the deck in the first place. I tell myself with 12-16 MB (Wraith, Chancellor, Phantasmagorian, Shoal, Contagion) answers to him, things should be fine. Using this type of thinking actually helped me out play a lot of my DRS playing opponents.

All in all, I'm quite happy with where the deck is now. And I'll admit you were right about Chancellor of the Annex, I'm never disappointed about having it in my opening hand.

[Final Fortune]

I don't really think DRS is the problem, the deck is going to live and die by whether or not the popular aggro-control decks of the format play Rest in Peace in the SBs - I'm having particular difficulty vs UWR playing those 3x in the SB over the course of a match. Ironically tho' I don't think I'm even afraid of BUG decks with 3x Surgical Extraction in their SB, I still have a pretty good win percentage post-board vs them which is pretty damn telling of how resilient this deck can be.

[Mr. Froggy]

I don't really think DRS is the problem, the deck is going to live and die by whether or not the popular aggro-control decks of the format play Rest in Peace in the SBs - I'm having particular difficulty vs UWR playing those 3x in the SB over the course of a match. Ironically tho' I don't think I'm even afraid of BUG decks with 3x Surgical Extraction in their SB, I still have a pretty good win percentage post-board vs them which is pretty damn telling of how resilient this deck can be.

That's exactly how I feel as well.

The only hate I'm scared of is RiP (and LotV but that doesn't see too much play anymore).

[Michael Keller]

Rest in Peace isn't all that scary - if you have a board that has answers to it.

[Michael Keller]

If you guys want me to rewrite the primer, I'd be more than willing to do it.

[Mr. Froggy]

If you guys want me to rewrite the primer, I'd be more than willing to do it.

I think that would be great, it's in dire need of an update.

[Graf_Caligula]

If you guys want me to rewrite the primer, I'd be more than willing to do it.

I am sure you are the right guy to write that update, Hollywood.

[Mr. Froggy]

I am sure you are the right guy to write that update, Hollywood.

Couldn't agree more.

If you're up for it Hollywood, we'd really appreciate it.

[Michael Keller]

Couldn't agree more.

If you're up for it Hollywood, we'd really appreciate it.

I'm totally up for it.

[Mr. Froggy]

I'm totally up for it.

Perfect!
You have the job!

[Final Fortune]

Rest in Peace isn't all that scary - if you have a board that has answers to it.

I'm not MDing Dryad Arbor or SBing answers to Rest in Peace until it becomes omni-present in the metagame, spending your entire SB to address 1 card when you could spend your SB to address Storm, Reanimator/Hermit Druid/Dredge and anything with Deathrite Shaman just seems like higher EV overall. If UWR becomes as popular as RUG was I'll be worried, but considering the popularity of BUG as a foil to UWR I think we're ok for the time being.

[Darklingske]

So Final Fortune, what is your SB like? I'm not spending any SBslots to kill DRS. And what facing T1-kill-combodecks concerns: They are not very much (almost not at all) played in my meta, so I choose to ignore them. My current SB:
4 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
2 Catacombs
4 Nature's Claim
4 Reverent Silence

[Mr. Froggy]

So Final Fortune, what is your SB like? I'm not spending any SBslots to kill DRS. And what facing T1-kill-combodecks concerns: They are not very much (almost not at all) played in my meta, so I choose to ignore them. My current SB:
4 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
2 Catacombs
4 Nature's Claim
4 Reverent Silence

What does your MB look like?

[Michael Keller]

I'm not MDing Dryad Arbor or SBing answers to Rest in Peace until it becomes omni-present in the metagame, spending your entire SB to address 1 card when you could spend your SB to address Storm, Reanimator/Hermit Druid/Dredge and anything with Deathrite Shaman just seems like higher EV overall. If UWR becomes as popular as RUG was I'll be worried, but considering the popularity of BUG as a foil to UWR I think we're ok for the time being.

Who says I don't do that already? You have no idea what my sideboard looks like ATM. Additionally, you and I have always generally disagreed on our approach on how this deck functions from all perspectives, generally speaking. I don't lose to hate, and that's just the way I like it.

Right now, I'm running a configuration that looks exactly like this:

4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Faerie Macabre
4x Reverent Silence
3x Ashen Rider (1x Main)

I also main 4x Unmasks. My version is a dedicated Dread Return-combo variation, and always has been. Dryad Arbor is there to facilitate faster Dread Returns without interaction, which it really has predominantly done from the start.

And as you can see, I aim to fight Storm, Reanimator, Dredge and Show and Tell - all extremely difficult match-ups. This board has been tremendous and compliments the main in today's meta very well.

[Mr. Froggy]

Who says I don't do that already? You have no idea what my sideboard looks like ATM. Additionally, you and I have always generally disagreed on our approach on how this deck functions from all perspectives, generally speaking. I don't lose to hate, and that's just the way I like it.

Right now, I'm running a configuration that looks exactly like this:

4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Faerie Macabre
4x Reverent Silence
3x Ashen Rider (1x Main)

I also main 4x Unmasks. My version is a dedicated Dread Return-combo variation, and always has been. Dryad Arbor is there to facilitate faster Dread Returns without interaction, which it really has predominantly done from the start.

And as you can see, I aim to fight Storm, Reanimator, Dredge and Show and Tell - all extremely difficult match-ups. This board has been tremendous and compliments the main in today's meta very well.

Mind sharing your maindeck?

[Michael Keller]

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Unmask
[4x] Dread Return
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Dryad Arbor
[4x] Shambling Shell
[2x] Griselbrand
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound
[1x] Ashen Rider

Sideboard
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[4x] Reverent Silence
[3x] Ashen Rider

All fairly self-explanatory choices. The main has a full compliment of sixteen dredgers with a sideboard tailored to fight some difficult match-ups. Ashen Rider has been clutch in both the main and side, with Unmask being key in scenarios where getting a dredger into your graveyard on the play or fighting combo decks is critical.

It's been working solid for me.

[Michael Keller]

I've literally got a huge number of lists on tap for you all to see. I'll post them later when I bounce from work.

[Mr. Froggy]

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Unmask
[4x] Dread Return
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Dryad Arbor
[4x] Shambling Shell
[2x] Griselbrand
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound
[1x] Ashen Rider

Sideboard
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[4x] Reverent Silence
[3x] Ashen Rider

All fairly self-explanatory choices. The main has a full compliment of sixteen dredgers with a sideboard tailored to fight some difficult match-ups. Ashen Rider has been clutch in both the main and side, with Unmask being key in scenarios where getting a dredger into your graveyard on the play or fighting combo decks is critical.

It's been working solid for me.

Has Unmask been better than Chancellor of the Annex for you?

I tried Unmask, and wasn't too fond of it.

[Final Fortune]

Who says I don't do that already? You have no idea what my sideboard looks like ATM. Additionally, you and I have always generally disagreed on our approach on how this deck functions from all perspectives, generally speaking. I don't lose to hate, and that's just the way I like it.

Right now, I'm running a configuration that looks exactly like this:

4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Faerie Macabre
4x Reverent Silence
3x Ashen Rider (1x Main)

I also main 4x Unmasks. My version is a dedicated Dread Return-combo variation, and always has been. Dryad Arbor is there to facilitate faster Dread Returns without interaction, which it really has predominantly done from the start.

And as you can see, I aim to fight Storm, Reanimator, Dredge and Show and Tell - all extremely difficult match-ups. This board has been tremendous and compliments the main in today's meta very well.

All I can say is WTF at the mathematical ridiculousness of 4 Dryad Arbor and 4 Reverent Silence doing shit vs RIP

[Michael Keller]

My list is always in flux. Unmask is a flex spot ATM. I like it for the utility it provides and gives the deck a way out to the "Time Walk Syndrome" it has always faced.

On the play, Unmasking yourself with a Street Wraith in hand is just awesome. It also has merits against Combo, which I like.

[Michael Keller]

Here's a list I've been tinkering with on the side now for a little while:


Manaless Dredge
PT1.1

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Dryad Arbor
[4x] Bloodghast
[4x] Dread Return
[3x] Edge of Autumn
[3x] Phantasmagorian
[3x] Dakmor Salvage
[2x] Griselbrand
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

Sideboard

[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Nature's Claim
[3x] Undiscovered Paradise
[2x] Ashen Rider
[2x] Pithing Needle

This variation focuses more on consistency with a more threat-dense creature base, in addition to being less interactive with Edge of Autumn and Street Wraith. Edge of Autumn allows the player activating it to get value out of opposing Wasteland activations and making creature(s) immediately off of Dryad Arbor and Bridge from Below. It's also never really dead if you dredge into a Dakmor Salvage. In a deck more focused with abusing Bloodghasts, Autumn has effective utility.

Pithing Needle is used to shut down problematic cards and providing you some protection in games two (and potentially three). Undiscovered Paradise's utility should go without saying in a deck abusing Bloodghast. In Manaless it's even more effective as it bounces back to your hand and gets you that much faster to eight in hand in the event you need it.


I'm not MDing Dryad Arbor or SBing answers to Rest in Peace until it becomes omni-present in the metagame, spending your entire SB to address 1 card when you could spend your SB to address Storm, Reanimator/Hermit Druid/Dredge and anything with Deathrite Shaman just seems like higher EV overall. If UWR becomes as popular as RUG was I'll be worried, but considering the popularity of BUG as a foil to UWR I think we're ok for the time being.

You do realize Hermit Druid is banned in Legacy, don't you?

[Mr. Froggy]

Here's a list I've been tinkering with on the side now for a little while:


Manaless Dredge
PT1.1

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Dryad Arbor
[4x] Bloodghast
[4x] Dread Return
[3x] Edge of Autumn
[3x] Phantasmagorian
[3x] Dakmor Salvage
[2x] Griselbrand
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

Sideboard

[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Nature's Claim
[3x] Undiscovered Paradise
[2x] Ashen Rider
[2x] Pithing Needle

This variation focuses more on consistency with a more threat-dense creature base, in addition to being less interactive with Edge of Autumn and Street Wraith. Edge of Autumn allows the player activating it to get value out of opposing Wasteland activations and making creature(s) immediately off of Dryad Arbor and Bridge from Below. It's also never really dead if you dredge into a Dakmor Salvage. In a deck more focused with abusing Bloodghasts, Autumn has effective utility.

Pithing Needle is used to shut down problematic cards and providing you some protection in games two (and potentially three). Undiscovered Paradise's utility should go without saying in a deck abusing Bloodghast. In Manaless it's even more effective as it bounces back to your hand and gets you that much faster to eight in hand in the event you need it.



You do realize Hermit Druid is banned in Legacy, don't you?

This version makes me think of the the old Rausch list, no?

[Final Fortune]

You do realize Hermit Druid is banned in Legacy, don't you?

I refuse to call that deck "Oops, All Spells" if the correlation to Hermit Druid isn't obvious.

[Michael Keller]

This version makes me think of the the old Rausch list, no?

I tested the living hell out of that list and it's fucking resilient. I don't know how much of a fan I am of it, but the more and more I goldfish it and play against competent opponents pre and post-board, it seems to be extremely solid.

[Mr. Froggy]

I tested the living hell out of that list and it's fucking resilient. I don't know how much of a fan I am of it, but the more and more I goldfish it and play against competent opponents pre and post-board, it seems to be extremely solid.

I find it old-school, which is really nice.

EDIT: I do like my list though, its been solid for me.

[Final Fortune]

I don't think resiliency is necessary over disruptiveness, there just aren't enough Crypt effects in the metagame in order to worry about threat density and Surgical Extraction/Snapcaster Mage has probably gone the way of the bygones post Deathrite Shaman and True Name Nemesis.

I would never, ever cut Chancellor of the Annex from Manaless Dredge because you do not have enough answers to T1 Deathrite Shaman without it, but if you want to go the Bloodghast way I think SBing Unmask, removing the combo Dread Return targets and playing 4 Dryad Arbour and 4 Bloodghasts would be a viable, grindhouse where Dryad Arbour would have added value from triggering Bloodghast(s) for accelerated Dread Returns and would also double as a Dread Return target where you'd get X Zombies from Dread Return, reanimate Dryad Arbor, trigger Bloodghast(s) and then Dread Return again for X more Zombies etc. etc. etc. I always wanted to try something like that, excluding Dakmor Salvage altogether because it sucks at anything other than being played from hand in order to trigger Landfall.

Autumn's Veil seems really awful even if you're cutting Shambling Shell for Dakmor Salvages because you could just as easily play Gitaxian Probe. The thing that worries me about the Shambling Shell for Dakmor Salvages swap is that keeping a hand with only Shambling Shell as your Dredger is already pretty thin, I might play one, maybe two, Dakmor Salvage at most in the whole deck just because it gives you an eventual Landfall activation if necessary and increases the total number of Landfall activations from your hand if you draw it. I wouldn't be surprised if SBing 2 just to replace with Chancellors of the Annex vs match ups like UBW where Chancellor is mediocre would be the correct approach, but considering even UBW decks are playing Deathrite Shaman and SBing a Tropical Island I doubt that's even right.

[Michael Keller]

I don't think resiliency is necessary over disruptiveness, there just aren't enough Crypt effects in the metagame in order to worry about thrte]I would never, ever cut Chancellor of the Annex from Manaless Dredge because you do not have enough answers to T1 Deathrite Shaman without it.

With a base configuration of 4/4 Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian, that alone on turn zero gives you a very good chance of beating DRS, and the card ties up their resources anyhow. It's really not all that great and usually a Street Wraith on a Troll against an active DRS is lights-out.


...but if you want to go the Bloodghast way I think SBing Unmask, removing the combo Dread Return targets and playing 4 Dryad Arbour and 4 Bloodghasts would be a viable, grindhouse where Dryad Arbour would have added value from triggering Bloodghast(s) for accelerated Dread Returns and would also double as a Dread Return target where you'd get X Zombies from Dread Return, reanimate Dryad Arbor, trigger Bloodghast(s) and then Dread Return again for X more Zombies etc. etc. etc. I always wanted to try something like that, excluding Dakmor Salvage altogether because it sucks at anything other than being played from hand in order to trigger Landfall.

...Extra creatures faster means fueling Dread Returns faster. If you're playing Dread Return, you play it to win on the spot. I know the line you're speaking of with Arbor and Bloodghast, which is nice. But I'd keep my targets in the deck if I'm dedicated to running a deck that is able to reanimate any of the most powerful creatures in all of Magic's history.

I personally *hate* passing the turn to an opponent, even if I have the game all but locked up. There's that "all but" clause in there that can be easily mitigated by putting a target in the deck that wins. Even Griselbrand can be exiled to Ichorid and stacks on Shadows.


Autumn's Veil seems really awful even if you're cutting Shambling Shell for Dakmor Salvages because you could just as easily play Gitaxian Probe.

That would be Edge of Autumn and not Autumn's Veil.

And Edge of Autumn is noninteractive, as opposed to Probe. In a deck running more lands, the ability to make tokens and dredge, it's a very solid tool that also fights DRS without having to wait a turn like you'd have to with Probe.

Two separate cards for two separate purposes. Yes, the draw is the same, but it's the manner in which they operate and interact with the deck that differs. One is virtually unstoppable and has far more utility. It's also more situational.

Still, unless you've actually tested it like I have hundreds (if not thousands) of times, you might want to strap in and try it out before dismissing the idea based on intuition alone. I kind of did the same thing and wound up going 3-1-1, 4-1-1 and 4-1-1 (10-3-3) in three tournaments straight with it.

My list *always* changes (daily, really) as to eliminate the predictability issue with my sideboards and builds. This was no different.

[Mr. Froggy]

Is 3 Phantasmagorian enough though? I find its one of the best cards in the deck, and I always want to see it.

EDIT: I played vs 8Tezz (or wtv its called), I won G1 pretty easily. G2&3 he got Leyline of the Void out... -_-

[Michael Keller]

Is 3 Phantasmagorian enough though? I find its one of the best cards in the deck, and I always want to see it.

EDIT: I played vs 8Tezz (or wtv its called), I won G1 pretty easily. G2&3 he got Leyline of the Void out... -_-

What build were you using?

[Mr. Froggy]

What build were you using?

My version, kind of a mix of your old Manaless Dredge (sans Dryad Arbor) and Spy (w/Chancellor MD), but I run Griselbrand instead of Spy.

I know that your version can deal with RiP (et al.) so I think I'm gonna try it.

[Michael Keller]

My version, kind of a mix of your old Manaless Dredge (sans Dryad Arbor) and Spy (w/Chancellor MD), but I run Griselbrand instead of Spy.

I know that your version can deal with RiP (et al.) so I think I'm gonna try it.

Seriously though, folks: there are two kinds of people in this thread. There are people that don't think it's necessary to fight varied kinds of hate, and then there's people who tailor their decks to combat varied kinds of hate. It's really cut and dry at this point.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with trying new things, which is what I enjoy doing best. I don't give my opponents the benefit of the doubt when it comes to knowing my list on a weekly basis, which is part of the reason I don't post my lists in the thread anymore. It changes so much that there's no reason to post just one.

[Mr. Froggy]

Seriously though, folks: there are two kinds of people in this thread. There are people that don't think it's necessary to fight varied kinds of hate, and then there's people who tailor their decks to combat varied kinds of hate. It's really cut and dry at this point.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with trying new things, which is what I enjoy doing best. I don't give my opponents the benefit of the doubt when it comes to knowing my list on a weekly basis, which is part of the reason I don't post my lists in the thread anymore. It changes so much that there's no reason to post just one.

No worries my man. Just thought I'd ask since you were one of the most succesful Manaless players I knew of.

I told myself (when I was building the deck, that is) because you had the most success I needed to start with your list and adjust accordingly.

I just feel the deck is so tight, its hard to change things out (to me at least).

[Michael Keller]

I'm just saying in general that that's effectively what it's come down to. The core group of cards never change, but things start getting hazy with the interchangeable cards that can be removed and replaced.

[Mr. Froggy]

This is my current list:

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[3x] Shambling Shell
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[3x] Contagion
[1x] Sickening Shoal
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Dread Return
[3x] Griselbrand
[2x] Flayer of the Hatebound
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex

Its pretty standard, can go full combo or draw out the game.

[Final Fortune]

Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith are not enough to stop a Deathrite Shaman consistently, you need at least twelve cards, and thus I believe Chancellor of the Annex should be in every Manaless Dredge deck because it both A) stops a Deathrite Shaman or Relic of Progenitus from being played on T1 and B) allows you to cut your dedicated Dread Return targets in favour of more business spells considering it "locks out" all of the decks that could potentially kill you on the following turn from winning after you've Dread Returned it.

You talk a lot about "hedging" against multiple forms of hate, but that's exactly what Chancellor of the Annex does; it hedges against MD Deathrite Shaman, SB Relic of Progenitus and prevents any aggro-control deck from being able to Brainstorm or Ponder into Surgical Extraction or Rest in Peace with impunity. I'm strongly in favour of Chancellor of the Annex and Chancellor of the Forge (or maybe Dryad Arbour) because deccelerating your opponent away from his hate and accelerating yourself into your Cabal Therapy and Dread Returns is exactly what keeps you from dying, not killing the opponent immediately after you've already reached a winning position.

But most importantly, we live in a day and age where Swords to Plowshares has gone from the quintessential removal card to the worst playable removal card in the format, BUG, RUG and the UWR players who cut Swords to Plowshares for more burn can't really do anything about a threat as lumberous as a Golgari Grave Troll anymore so we don't have to worry as much about getting immediately value out of our Dread Return targets.

All of that said, I might be abandoning Unmask in favour of Dryad Arbour under the assumption that maximizing the probability of resolving Cabal Therapy vs Storm, who can Duress or Cabal Therapy our Unmask away before we can use it, and accelerating into Dread Return vs everything else may be a slightly better configuration.

Edit: 2nd Flayer of the Hateboud is always a waste of space, I'm also pretty sure you should be playing Dryad Arbour over Contagion because removal is too specific pre-board compared to disruption, reanimation, Zombies etc.

[Cyceron]

And Edge of Autumn is noninteractive, as opposed to Probe. In a deck running more lands, the ability to make tokens and dredge, it's a very solid tool that also fights DRS without having to wait a turn like you'd have to with Probe.

I really like the card, it definitely seems interesting, but how does one fight DRS with it without having to wait a turn? I mean, if it's a T1 DRS then we don't have any land on the board anyway...

[Michael Keller]

I really like the card, it definitely seems interesting, but how does one fight DRS with it without having to wait a turn? I mean, if it's a T1 DRS then we don't have any land on the board anyway...

You play a Dakmor Salvage, sacrifice it as part of the cost for Edge and dredge it back to your hand.

[Mr. Froggy]

I decided to build LEDless Dredge (on MTGO) to test and see which is more consistent between Manaless and LEDless.

I see it this way, IMHO.

Manaless > LEDless

Just want to see the results I'll get because I'm really intrigued.

[Final Fortune]

I decided to build LEDless Dredge (on MTGO) to test and see which is more consistent between Manaless and LEDless.

I see it this way, IMHO.

Manaless > LEDless

Just want to see the results I'll get because I'm really intrigued.

I'm not certain it's that simple, LED Dredge or LEDless Dredge have the distinct advantage of being able to either Cabal Therapy or Unmask before Rest in Peace resolves - if you're seeing 4 Rest in Peace in every SB it's kind of a good idea not to play Manaless Dredge and play either LED or LEDless Dredge.

Plus Firestorm is like the greatest card ever printed in the history of Magic, ah roasted Elves.

[GoldenCid]

You do realize Hermit Druid is banned in Legacy, don't you?

I think he wanted to say Rogue Hermit (Oops all spells)



You play a Dakmor Salvage, sacrifice it as part of the cost for Edge and dredge it back to your hand.

Nice tech. It adds an "uncountereable instant speed draw spell". Complements wrtaiht and makes tokens with arbor at the same time you dredge.

An odd question is griselbrand reemplazable in this deck? I love running stuff like Angel of despair and Woodfall primus in addition to flayer. I found them like "gain too much time and win guys". Love'em.

[Michael Keller]

So I just tried something out, and it actually somehow wound up being really good: Serum Powder.

Here's what I did: I took out the three Edge of Autumn and replaced them with three Serum Powder straight-up. I've been playing all night and gold-fishing games at the house and I'm actually surprised at how good it's been. The lands in the deck already compliment the Bloodghast package well, so didn't need to really edit anything there. I tried an experiment where I wanted to play like Vintage Dredge and see how it would work. In Manaless Dredge (the Legacy version), the closest options we have at facilitating faster kills are basically Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith - two extremely powerful cards that we're all happy to open up a game with.

The benefits I found were actually staggering:

1. It allowed me to improve vastly on open-handing either of the aforementioned cards, which was especially helpful against Deathrite Shaman. This was also crucial because I didn't have to dip into my sideboard for anti-hate cards, but instead, it just allowed me to open with the cards that counter DRS on the spot.
2. It allowed me post-board to open-hand Mindbreak Trap against a Belcher player twice without having to mulligan.
3. It improved my opening hand multiple times with multiple Narcomoebas - drawing me into Sreet Wraiths and Phantasmagorians.

While there is no comparison to Bazaar of Baghdad in any way, shape or form, in Legacy when we open-hand Street Wraith with this deck, the winning percentages just rocket. Add the fact that this variation (like it's distant Vintage cousin) plays Bloodghasts, we're in less danger of exiling our threats off Powder because we have redundancy in the form of Bloodghast anyhow.

I was pretty shocked at how good it was.

[Mr. Froggy]

So I just tried something out, and it actually somehow wound up being really good: Serum Powder.

Here's what I did: I took out the three Edge of Autumn and replaced them with three Serum Powder straight-up. I've been playing all night and gold-fishing games at the house and I'm actually surprised at how good it's been. The lands in the deck already compliment the Bloodghast package well, so didn't need to really edit anything there. I tried an experiment where I wanted to play like Vintage Dredge and see how it would work. In Manaless Dredge (the Legacy version), the closest options we have at facilitating faster kills are basically Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith - two extremely powerful cards that we're all happy to open up a game with.

The benefits I found were actually staggering:

1. It allowed me to improve vastly on open-handing either of the aforementioned cards, which was especially helpful against Deathrite Shaman. This was also crucial because I didn't have to dip into my sideboard for anti-hate cards, but instead, it just allowed me to open with the cards that counter DRS on the spot.
2. It allowed me post-board to open-hand Mindbreak Trap against a Belcher player twice without having to mulligan.
3. It improved my opening hand multiple times with multiple Narcomoebas - drawing me into Sreet Wraiths and Phantasmagorians.

While there is no comparison to Bazaar of Baghdad in any way, shape or form, in Legacy when we open-hand Street Wraith with this deck, the winning percentages just rocket. Add the fact that this variation (like it's distant Vintage cousin) plays Bloodghasts, we're in less danger of exiling our threats off Powder because we have redundancy in the form of Bloodghast anyhow.

I was pretty shocked at how good it was.


I had thought of Serum Powder a while back, just didn't want to mention it. I felt people would take me for a fool if I did...

[GoldenCid]

I'm not certain it's that simple, LED Dredge or LEDless Dredge have the distinct advantage of being able to either Cabal Therapy or Unmask before Rest in Peace resolves - if you're seeing 4 Rest in Peace in every SB it's kind of a good idea not to play Manaless Dredge and play either LED or LEDless Dredge.

Plus Firestorm is like the greatest card ever printed in the history of Magic, ah roasted Elves.

This is actually true. But in a blind meta what versión would you play??

Manaless is so funny and have inique techs that make it a headache forma countermagic.
However, it explosiveness is weaker than mana ichorid. Indeed i think that serum powder is much justified in a deck that can explode into your opo face!

[Mr. Froggy]

This is actually true. But in a blind meta what versión would you play??

Manaless is so funny and have inique techs that make it a headache forma countermagic.
However, it explosiveness is weaker than mana ichorid. Indeed i think that serum powder is much justified in a deck that can explode into your opo face!

I guess that depends on your play style, honestly.

[GoldenCid]

Inspired by Hollywood i took this autum dekc list:

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Dakmor Salvage
3 Bloodghast
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Dryad Arbor
2 Griselbrand
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Bridge from Below
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Edge of Autumn

SB: 4 Unmask
SB: 1 Forest
SB: 2 Verdant Catacombs
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Sickening Shoal
SB: 1 Contagion

Loved edge of autumn since its provide an instant speed response for multiple situations. Increase a t2 combo at the same time is very sinergistic with other cards of the deck. And yes....i surrendered to griseldbrand...XD

15 dredgers
15 free guys

Comments are very welcomed.

[Final Fortune]

So I just tried something out, and it actually somehow wound up being really good: Serum Powder.

Here's what I did: I took out the three Edge of Autumn and replaced them with three Serum Powder straight-up. I've been playing all night and gold-fishing games at the house and I'm actually surprised at how good it's been. The lands in the deck already compliment the Bloodghast package well, so didn't need to really edit anything there. I tried an experiment where I wanted to play like Vintage Dredge and see how it would work. In Manaless Dredge (the Legacy version), the closest options we have at facilitating faster kills are basically Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith - two extremely powerful cards that we're all happy to open up a game with.

The benefits I found were actually staggering:

1. It allowed me to improve vastly on open-handing either of the aforementioned cards, which was especially helpful against Deathrite Shaman. This was also crucial because I didn't have to dip into my sideboard for anti-hate cards, but instead, it just allowed me to open with the cards that counter DRS on the spot.
2. It allowed me post-board to open-hand Mindbreak Trap against a Belcher player twice without having to mulligan.
3. It improved my opening hand multiple times with multiple Narcomoebas - drawing me into Sreet Wraiths and Phantasmagorians.

While there is no comparison to Bazaar of Baghdad in any way, shape or form, in Legacy when we open-hand Street Wraith with this deck, the winning percentages just rocket. Add the fact that this variation (like it's distant Vintage cousin) plays Bloodghasts, we're in less danger of exiling our threats off Powder because we have redundancy in the form of Bloodghast anyhow.

I was pretty shocked at how good it was.

I've used Serum Powder off and on since Breathweapon suggested it for the original Manaless Dredge on MTGO, the list with 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Cephalid Coliseum, 4 Deep Analysis and 4 Serum Powder, and I've hade a long standing suspicion that replacing Shambling Shell with Serum Powder would increase the deck's consistency overall because you lose the majority of your game ones to either Deathrite Shaman, Storm or having to keep a Dredge 3 as opposed to a Dredge 4 etc.

Regardless of the additional dead cards while Dredging, having a higher overall average Dredge offsets it and increases the odds of opening Chancellor of the Annex, Street Wraith or Phantasmagorian vs Deathrite Shaman, Mindbreak Trap vs Storm or Leyline of the Void vs other graveyard based strategies.

There was some interesting math, gold fishing, done on Bauble Dredge vs a version of Dredge that just used Lion's Eye Diamond, Deep Analysis and Serum Powder as I recall with the lists being approximately even in their gold fish speed, altho' it was said that Serum Powder actually made the deck slower (which I find hard to believe).

I do worry that not having the redundancy of drawing 2 Dredgers, even one as weak as a Shambling Shell, could adversely affect your resiliency to Surgical Extraction and your ability to chain Dredge.

The presence of Bloodghast has no weight on the effectiveness of Serum Powder, it's probably the opposite as Serum Powder should significantly increase your Landfall triggers. The card removal effect on your threats is of little consequence, when you considering you're also removing the Serum Powder and 5 other spells the deck tends to stay in balance relative to everything but Dredgers, and when you think about it removing 7 cards that aren't Dredgers and drawing 7 new cards is a VERY, VERY good thing.

@Goldencid

If you don't have Griselbrands in order to play alongside Dryad Arbour than something like Iona, Shield of Emeria is probably your next, best bet or go back to the old Cephalid Sage (or whatever improved version has been printed since) and Flame Kin Zealot kill if you can't wait until your next turn to kill your opponent.

Also for the love of god don't play more than 2 Dakmor Salvage, you can not keep a hand on Dredge 2 and if you just want to recur it to activate Landfall then 2 is more than enough redundancy because you have to wait until 2, maybe 3, Bloodghast in order to make that play worthwhile. You're much better off playing 4 Bloodghasts if for no other reason it makes the overall effect of returning Dakmor Salvage or playing a Dryad Arbour that much better.

[GoldenCid]

So you'd go-1 dakmor +1 ghast?

[Final Fortune]

So you'd go-1 dakmor +1 ghast?

At least, I don't think I'd play Dakmor Salvage at all honestly. Dryad Arbor and Dread Return is enough, you usually just chain two Dread Returns into each other in order to shit out zombie activations and a big troll and win vs most decks.

The point of Ghasts is to give Dryad Arbor and Dread Return added value, not really be its own engine, because that requires running Dakmor Salvage(s) and that shit is really bad. He's just trying to make other really bad cards work, like Edge of Autumn, and bad cards beget more bad cards especially when you're sitting across from an active Deathrite Shaman and a player who isn't stupid.

[Michael Keller]

I've used Serum Powder off and on since Breathweapon suggested it for the original Manaless Dredge on MTGO, the list with 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Cephalid Coliseum, 4 Deep Analysis and 4 Serum Powder, and I've hade a long standing suspicion that replacing Shambling Shell with Serum Powder would increase the deck's consistency overall because you lose the majority of your game ones to either Deathrite Shaman, Storm or having to keep a Dredge 3 as opposed to a Dredge 4 etc.

Serum Powder, for what it does, would undoubtedly increase the deck's overall consistency. Manaless Dredge is a deck that really cannot afford to naturally mulligan, so you're essentially stuck on whatever seven cards you draw. The black creature count in the deck is sufficient enough for Ichorids to run wild, so that's never a problem. The biggest issue with the deck rests solely on the shoulders of the opening hand, and that's really it. There's nothing the deck - or player - can control in an in-game situation when playing Manaless Dredge and drawing seven cards. There are no Brainstorms...or Tops...or Ponders...etc., that dictate what said player can and cannot draw. The deck just grinds through itself like a conveyor belt in a factory assembly line.

With that being said, Serum Powder may just be the right choice for this deck's continued success. Not only is it vastly improving on the overall mathematical probabilities of open-handing key cards in critical situations, it really gives the player operating it a chance to get rid of chafe and move right to the deck's power-plays with S.W. and Phantasmagorian. There may be instances where the player would exile something like a singleton Flayer, but I suppose if you're looking for a stronger opening hand, you don't need to worry about that if you're going to stampede over them with your creatures.

Also, Deathrite Shaman isn't a card that shuts this deck down as much as everyone thinks it does - even without Serum Powder. With a full compliment of Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith, you have a 65.36% shot of opening at least one of those eight cards in your opening hand, as opposed to the obvious 39.95% chance of your opponent opening the same. This is also ignoring the wide array of variables that are more advantageous to the Manaless player - largely due to the fact that this deck doesn't mulligan, but rather autonomously motions forward with its usual line of play without needing lands to operate.


Regardless of the additional dead cards while Dredging, having a higher overall average Dredge offsets it and increases the odds of opening Chancellor of the Annex, Street Wraith or Phantasmagorian vs Deathrite Shaman, Mindbreak Trap vs Storm or Leyline of the Void vs other graveyard based strategies.

Leyline of the Anything is atrocious in any composition of Manaless Dredge. If you're going to play any hate, use Faerie Macabre. You at least get a draw for the turn and are able to discard while keeping this unsuspecting form of hate in your hand, which also has more blowout value and synergistic qualities with Ichorid and Nether Shadow. There is virtually no reason to "Time Walk" yourself when you can play a (virtually) non-interactive card that is clearly superior out of the sideboard. It's also better in multiples, which Leyline is definitely not.


I do worry that not having the redundancy of drawing 2 Dredgers, even one as weak as a Shambling Shell, could adversely affect your resiliency to Surgical Extraction and your ability to chain Dredge.

If we're giving our opponent the benefit of the doubt (as you've done later) by insinuating they are an intelligent opponent who knows how to play this match-up, then Extracting a dredger - in most situations - is usually a mistake. There is no reason to run any less than 25% total of your deck comprised of dredgers.

The deck is redundant and capable in a variety of interesting scenarios, and that happens to be one of them. Surgical Extraction is also directly countered by Street Wraith - and Extraction is pretty bad in the mid to late game against any form of dredge on a dredger, so it would tend to happen earlier and more often. This increases the likelihood of using Street Wraith to counter that effect more readily in the early game without any issues.


Also for the love of god don't play more than 2 Dakmor Salvage, you can not keep a hand on Dredge 2 and if you just want to recur it to activate Landfall then 2 is more than enough redundancy because you have to wait until 2, maybe 3, Bloodghast in order to make that play worthwhile. You're much better off playing 4 Bloodghasts if for no other reason it makes the overall effect of returning Dakmor Salvage or playing a Dryad Arbour that much better.

Never play anything less than three Dakmor Salvage in a dedicated, four-count Bloodghast package...ever. Dredging three with Shell or two with Salvage really makes no large difference as they're both relatively ineffective in that department - even though they technically still dredge. You always want to open the game with a land, and if you're not opening the game with a land, dredging two to return it back is always your secondary line of play, as opposed to improving your chances of open-handing one or drawing into one on the first turn. Jumping north of 60% odds of opening with a land is very important in a deck tailored to suit Bloodghast's strengths as opposed to "crutching" on the card's off-the-bench utility.

Dryad Arbor into Bloodghast in a Dread Return-fueled list is incredibly nice, but being "nice" alone is not enough. Bloodghast is a card that deserves attention of you're running the full compliment, and riding on six lands (two of which are the only ones that dredge) in a list where Shells have been removed seems a bit low: 22.15% opening the game on one of your two Salvages as opposed to 31.54% for one of your three. (Their utility must be disseminated because one card functions as a dredger and the other does not - even if they are lands.) You want to mitigate that loss by at least improving your chances of opening with a dredger - even if you're not running Shell or Serum Powder.


The point of Ghasts is to give Dryad Arbor and Dread Return added value, not really be its own engine, because that requires running Dakmor Salvage(s) and that shit is really bad. He's just trying to make other really bad cards work, like Edge of Autumn, and bad cards beget more bad cards especially when you're sitting across from an active Deathrite Shaman and a player who isn't stupid.

You're sitting over there talking about using outdated choices like Cephalid Sage and you're calling a card like Edge of Autumn bad? Look, you've clearly never tested or used the card and are making a baseless assumption in an area where you haven't even done so much as an ounce of testing to conclude any sort of intelligible opinion, like, "He's just trying to make other bad cards work, like Edge of Autumn, and bad cards beget more bad cards..." What it honestly comes off as is blatant ignorance. Within a virtual melting pot of blossoming ideas, you're honestly still talking about cards that haven't been used in this archetype to success in years and generating opinion after opinion without so much as providing a competitive REL-level result.

That's not how it works.

News flash: no matter how "smart" you purport your opponent to be, the virtual non-interaction that this deck brings to the table completely wipes out any ability for that player to make *confident* choices in extremely situational Magic where they have little to no opportunity to interact and risk losing the game on a single line of play. They have no clue what you're going to be dumping with Phantasmagorian or if you have double-Street Wraith in your hand to blow them out. A smart player still has limited options within their first two turns. all the while you're flooding them with layer after layer of impending threats. Edge of Autumn is more than just a card - it's an ideal meant to generate the survival and success of this deck against its current and most popular nemesis. This deck, to be honest since I last really started talking about it, hasn't done much of anything and the lists have been stagnant or drifting to Chancellor/non-Chancellor, Spy/non-Spy or anti-hate/no anti-hate sideboards. Perhaps stimulating change and bringing a new layer of unpredictability to the table might actually make the deck, you know, viable again in a world-wide meta where it's not very well represented.

The time for change is now.

[Final Fortune]

Please, I don't need to test Edge of Autumn in order to know it's bad, a Cycler that requires a land isn't worth being uncounterable and activating Bridge from Below compared to a Cycler that doesn't require a land and lets you make more informed decisions with Cabal Therapy. The card is an inconsistent, two card combo that requires you to have, Dredge and play Dakmor Salvage in order to cast it reliably.

Dakmor Salvage is a bad card, Ariston did extensive testing with Dakmor Salvage and Blood Ghast in the past and found that Dakmor Salvage's Dredge and Landfall activation slowed the deck down compared to not playing Blood Ghast and Dakmor Salvage. I think insisting on playing Dakmor Salvage in order to play Blood Ghast is a mental block, because all you need is Dryad Arbor and Dread Return in order to make Blood Ghast relevant. If you want to increase your Landfall, then you can play other lands like Fetchlands which extend the use of your Dryad Arbor for Cabal Therapy, Dread Return, Bridge from Below activations or Forests/G mana for your SB cards than 3x of a card that you'd rather not draw or Dredge at all.

I did not advocate Cephalid Sage, Golden Cid asked for a budget replacement for Griselbrand in a deck with Dryad Arbor and Cephalid Sage (or its iterations) is the only other option I know of to replicate the draw effect cheaply.

I prefer Leyline of the Void to Faerie Macabre, Leyline of the Void is immune to Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy and requires bounce in order for the Reanimator, Hermit Druid or Dredge player to win - your Time Walk argument is awfully selective considering you previously advocated using Contagion against Deathrite Shaman by the way.

Having a 65% chance to answer a Deathrite Shaman is not enough, when you could have another 4 cards that answer Deathrite Shaman and are good vs every other match up in your deck. I don't see a reason to cut a necessary answer to a ubiquitous threat like Deathrite Shaman in order to play pet cards like Edge of Autumn, you're failing to address the metagame in favor of experimenting with jank.

You'll have to excuse me if I just outright dismiss some of your ideas, I assure you it's not out of laziness or ignorance, you've just advocated a lot of less than sound card choices in your attempts to revolutionize the deck like Rifstone Portal that have made me pretty cynical that anything you do advocate in Manaless Dredge is nothing more than your weekly flight of fancy. This deck is extremely linear, nothing you can do to it is really going to change its standing as a competitive deck in the format. I think loading down on disruption vs combo is one possibly way of increasing your EV vs the field, but the fact of the matter is that if the field is prepared for any linear deck than you shouldn't be playing it at all regardless of whatever novelties you've included in your deck this go around. Frankly, the core of the deck is so strong that it isn't really the player or the ~12 flex slots (more like ~8 flex slots considering I just think Chancellor of the Annex is mandatory post Deathrite Shaman) that is going to lead to your ability to win a tournament with it.

Provided you know the triggers, this deck is the definition of auto-pilot.

Edit: regarding the intelligible players comment, it doesn't really take a rocket scientist for a Storm player to name Unmask with Cabal Therapy game 1, it isn't until game 2 where I have Unmask and Mindbreak Trap where I feel confident Storm players have an actual decision to make.

[GoldenCid]

At least, I don't think I'd play Dakmor Salvage at all honestly. Dryad Arbor and Dread Return is enough, you usually just chain two Dread Returns into each other in order to shit out zombie activations and a big troll and win vs most decks.

The point of Ghasts is to give Dryad Arbor and Dread Return added value, not really be its own engine, because that requires running Dakmor Salvage(s) and that shit is really bad. He's just trying to make other really bad cards work, like Edge of Autumn, and bad cards beget more bad cards especially when you're sitting across from an active Deathrite Shaman and a player who isn't stupid.

But i found the sinergic Edge + sac savage + dredge + return more ghast useful.

Running edge + Street + arbor increased my t2 combo rate which is great!

[Michael Keller]

I can see cutting Edge of Autumn if it doesn't work for you, although I've found it to be really good.

At this point, I've got a major hard-on for Serum Powder right now, and I'm going to try it at a big tournament this Saturday.

[Final Fortune]

I'm 100% on board with Serum Powder replacing Shambling Shell, that seems to be a directly + EV decision, altho' it does require a couple of alterations to the Dread Return package, a 2/2 split of Griselbrand/Balustrade Spy and Flame Kin Zealot/Flayer of the Hatebound is probably a necessity. I found a curious problem with Mindbreak Trap that makes me think Leylines are better than people give them credit for despite the reversed Time Walk, an opposing Chancellor of the Annex counters everything other than Faerie Macabre.

@Golden Cid,

I don't know, I'm kind of on the fense about Unmask right now and Dread Return Dryad Arbor, Landfall, play Bloodghasts and sacrifice Dryad Arbor to Edge of Autumn could be a cute play to mess around with.

In other news, I think I'm done with Chancellor of the Forge, despite being a possible Dread Return target it's rarely a necessary Dread Return and otherwise it's a worse Dryad Arbor. I think I'm going to SB Unmask and play 4 Dryad Arbor and 4 Bloodghasts in order to see just how the added value of Bloodghast effects Dryad Arbor and how Dread Returning Dryad Arbor for Landfall works out.

Dryad Arbor is just an immensely solid card.

[Thrasher]

That Bloodghast build surely surprised me. At first i thought it was janky, but after a good amount of testing i realized it's seriously fast. It can't deal with rip/cage without a lot of luck, but that speed and consistency is impressive against the rest of the field. I have tried a list without Griselbrand and Flayer to squeeze in Chancellor of the Annex, but i felt the lack of a combo finisher.



I have tested serum powder in the past, it was nice to be able to mull sometimes, but it had some flaws.
-It makes it harder to chain dredges.
-It forces you to mull some hands where even a dredge 3 would've been nice.
-Can't be pitched to Ichorid/Doesn't count as a creature or Shadow.
-Surgical on a dredger becomes kinda effective, post board (you won't always be able to get dredger + wraith after mulling).

Not saying it's bad, just that i didn't find it that effective. Still, it'd be nice to see it working, it might deserve a spot in the deck, to let us mull into those Faerie Macabre's versus reanimator.

[Final Fortune]

That Bloodghast build surely surprised me. At first i thought it was janky, but after a good amount of testing i realized it's seriously fast. It can't deal with rip/cage without a lot of luck, but that speed and consistency is impressive against the rest of the field. I have tried a list without Griselbrand and Flayer to squeeze in Chancellor of the Annex, but i felt the lack of a combo finisher.



I have tested serum powder in the past, it was nice to be able to mull sometimes, but it had some flaws.
-It makes it harder to chain dredges.
-It forces you to mull some hands where even a dredge 3 would've been nice.
-Can't be pitched to Ichorid/Doesn't count as a creature or Shadow.
-Surgical on a dredger becomes kinda effective, post board (you won't always be able to get dredger + wraith after mulling).

Not saying it's bad, just that i didn't find it that effective. Still, it'd be nice to see it working, it might deserve a spot in the deck, to let us mull into those Faerie Macabre's versus reanimator.

It does create some consistency issues vs hate by replacing Shambling Shell, that said you can always play it in addition to Shambling Shell or add it to the SB.

For anybody playing the combo version, do you ever feel like Flame Kin Zealot is just better than Flayer of the Hatebound if for no other reason you'd actually reanimate it on its own (barring a world that plays with Moat effects)? It's a remarkably shitty Dread Return target by itself.

[Mr. Froggy]

I have yet to try out Serum Powder, I'll test tonight once I'm back from school. This new build has got me really interested.

[Thrasher]

I'd say undying and ignoring the blockers make Flayer slightly better than FKZ.

I rarely reanimate it versus elves, if i suspect they're going off next turn and i don't have griselbrand nor therapy. Burning the correct dude often means delaying them one turn, which should be enough to sweep their board in our next upkeep with ichorid/shadows triggering Flayer. This is a corner case, though.

The only case where i would want TFK is Leyline of sanctity, but i side Flayer out most of the times i have to face it, and i would do the same with Zealot.

[Michael Keller]

The Bloodghast-Arbor-Dread Return package is incredibly fast, in addition to just flat-out Dread Returning an Arbor, making tokens, getting Bloodghasts back, repeat and rinse. Dread Return, in this instance, becomes a monster token generator. It's actually quite sick.

I basically swapped out the three Edges in my list for three Powder and it wound up being really good. I'd like to try the fourth Powder at some point to maximize its effectiveness.

[Final Fortune]

The Bloodghast-Arbor-Dread Return package is incredibly fast, in addition to just flat-out Dread Returning an Arbor, making tokens, getting Bloodghasts back, repeat and rinse. Dread Return, in this instance, becomes a monster token generator. It's actually quite sick.

I basically swapped out the three Edges in my list for three Powder and it wound up being really good. I'd like to try the fourth Powder at some point to maximize its effectiveness.

Are you playing dedicated Dread Return targets in that list?

I'm messing around with this,

4 Serum Powder
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomboea
4 Nether Shadow
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return

I've been thinking a lot about either SBing or MDing Fetchlands in order to increase the virtual number of Dryad Arbors in the deck while faciliting Reverent Silence vs Rest in Peace, you increase Landfall, you increase Bridge from Below triggers, you increase Cabal Therapy targets, you increase Dread Return targets etc. so as long as your SBing in Reverent Silence and only Reverent Silence and you're playing Bloodghast then you're keeping considerable parody in the total number of business spells in your deck.

Try cutting the Dakmor Salvages for Fetchlands MD when you get a chance, if the Dredge is irrelevant and returning it to play is mediocre than I'm pretty sure any land that can trigger Landfall and in addition to that feed Cabal Therapy, Dread Return and generate Zombies is pretty bonkers.

Dryad Arbor is like the best natural draw in the deck, and we can have as many as we want, it's pretty sick when you think about it because I'm actually SBing in lands vs combo over Unmask *head explodes*

[Mr. Froggy]

I goldfished the new Serum Powder list, I kind of miss the combo finish, no?

[Michael Keller]

I goldfished the new Serum Powder list, I kind of miss the combo finish, no?

I still run two Griselbrands and a Flayer in my list and it worked great with Powder.

[Mr. Froggy]

Screw the MTGO shuffler, when I solitaire, I get Serum Powder (3x in a row). When I play vs someone, not one single time... But I do like the interaction of DRing a Dryad Arbor (make a million Zombies), landfall 2-3 Bloodghasts.

[Michael Keller]

Screw the MTGO shuffler, when I solitaire, I get Serum Powder (3x in a row). When I play vs someone, not one single time... But I do like the interaction of DRing a Dryad Arbor (make a million Zombies), landfall 2-3 Bloodghasts.

The percentages will always remain the same on turn zero depending on how many Powder you run. I'm going for four.

[Mr. Froggy]

The percentages will always remain the same on turn zero depending on how many Powder you run. I'm going for four.

Yeah, I put 4, to help my chances of drawing one in my opening hand. I was wondering though, does going down on dredgers hurt?

[AmokPL]

interaction of DRing a Dryad Arbor (make a million Zombies), landfall 2-3 Bloodghasts.

so instead of Dread Returning Flayer then Troll and finishing the game/or Dread Returning Griselbrand and flipping our deck we choose to reanimate Dryad Arbor just to justify running Bloodghasts? This is our plan now? I mean apart from triggering 2-3 2/1's to come back from grave what is the point of that? I like the idea of running Arbor as poor backup against Thalia, as a free creature drop for Therapy or DR or being able to play Reverent Silence/Claim but using it as a TARGET of Dread Return when you have huge Troll, huge lifelink, draw 7 Demon or shooting Devil to choose from?? I don't get it :really:

[Michael Keller]

so instead of Dread Returning Flayer then Troll and finishing the game/or Dread Returning Griselbrand and flipping our deck we choose to reanimate Dryad Arbor just to justify running Bloodghasts? This is our plan now? I mean apart from triggering 2-3 2/1's to come back from grave what is the point of that? I like the idea of running Arbor as poor backup against Thalia, as a free creature drop for Therapy or DR or being able to play Reverent Silence/Claim but using it as a TARGET of Dread Return when you have huge Troll, huge lifelink, draw 7 Demon or shooting Devil to choose from?? I don't get it :really:

Situational Magic.

If you find yourself in a position to be able to generate zombies, get your land and Bloodghasts back, that's a lot of gas. It's all about the situation you're in.

I personally still run Griselbrand and Flayer, so this works fine for me and gives me more flexibility in terms of combo finishes.

[AmokPL]

hmm I just can't imagine a situation when I would rather choose to reanimate Dryad over another DR target (which you probably already have in your GY - 4 Trolls, 2-3 Griselbrands, 1-2 Flayers).

Personally I will test a playset of Serum Powders as I find the ability to keep a decent 7card opening hand invaluable. Also having Powder maindecked opens you to sb black and/or white Leylines for unconuterable hate for Reanimator, Burn and other decks and makes white Chancellor even better.

[Mr. Froggy]

Situational Magic.

If you find yourself in a position to be able to generate zombies, get your land and Bloodghasts back, that's a lot of gas. It's all about the situation you're in.

I personally still run Griselbrand and Flayer, so this works fine for me and gives me more flexibility in terms of combo finishes.

That's what I think as well, it's all about thw game-state you're in.

I'll try the list again later tonight, just to have a more concrete idea of the deck.

[Cyceron]

The percentages will always remain the same on turn zero depending on how many Powder you run. I'm going for four.

What do you take out for the 4th?

[Michael Keller]

If I'm going with four Serum Powder, I can accept going to two Dakmor Salvages.

[Mr. Froggy]

Are you playing dedicated Dread Return targets in that list?

I'm messing around with this,

4 Serum Powder
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomboea
4 Nether Shadow
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return

I've been thinking a lot about either SBing or MDing Fetchlands in order to increase the virtual number of Dryad Arbors in the deck while faciliting Reverent Silence vs Rest in Peace, you increase Landfall, you increase Bridge from Below triggers, you increase Cabal Therapy targets, you increase Dread Return targets etc. so as long as your SBing in Reverent Silence and only Reverent Silence and you're playing Bloodghast then you're keeping considerable parody in the total number of business spells in your deck.

Try cutting the Dakmor Salvages for Fetchlands MD when you get a chance, if the Dredge is irrelevant and returning it to play is mediocre than I'm pretty sure any land that can trigger Landfall and in addition to that feed Cabal Therapy, Dread Return and generate Zombies is pretty bonkers.

Dryad Arbor is like the best natural draw in the deck, and we can have as many as we want, it's pretty sick when you think about it because I'm actually SBing in lands vs combo over Unmask *head explodes*

I tried this list, I just feel it misses some oomph to make it go nuts. I'll try Hollywood's to see the difference.

EDIT: No offense guys, but I went back to my original build. The new one wasn't for me; I felt it was too grindy. Although, I did manage to fit in 2 G. Probes in it, while still running 15 Dredgers. It's my sb I can't remember what it was I ran in it... -_- 4 Trap 4 Leyline 3 Faerie can remember the rest...

[Final Fortune]

so instead of Dread Returning Flayer then Troll and finishing the game/or Dread Returning Griselbrand and flipping our deck we choose to reanimate Dryad Arbor just to justify running Bloodghasts? This is our plan now? I mean apart from triggering 2-3 2/1's to come back from grave what is the point of that? I like the idea of running Arbor as poor backup against Thalia, as a free creature drop for Therapy or DR or being able to play Reverent Silence/Claim but using it as a TARGET of Dread Return when you have huge Troll, huge lifelink, draw 7 Demon or shooting Devil to choose from?? I don't get it :really:

The point is dedicated Dread Return targets can be a waste of space, resolving Dread Return is often just as good at winning in the follwing as it is at winning now, and unlike Golgari Grave Troll Dread Returning Dryad Arbor and triggering Landfall puts multiple bodies on the table to swarm against the opponent by sacrificing them again to another Dread Return and creating a critcal mass of Zombies.

@ Mr. Froggy

My lists are always going to be slower than other lists if you compare them by gold fishing, the problem with gold fishing is that you're disregarding interactions like Deathrite Shaman, go that can lead to automatic game loses G2 when the opponent knows what you're playing, mulligans aggressively for Deathrite Shaman and gets an additional card by choosing to let you play first. A lot of people's decisions with Dredge aren't based on playing actual games of Magic, The Interactivity so cards like Griselbrand/Flayer of the Hatebound get more weight than they should.

Right now I'm trying a list with Bloodghast, Dakmor Salvage and Edge of Autumn without Serum Powder, Shambling Shells or Chancellor of the Annex and I'm trying a list with Bloodghast, 4 additional fetchlands for Dryad Arbor and Serum Powder and without Chancelor of the Annex just to see how the deck works with an increased count of Landfall + Draw and increased count of Landfall + Cabal Therapy/Dread Return targets.

I find Dakmor Salvage pretty painful to play as your only Dredger in hand, you really need to be able to do things like Landfall, untap and cast a Cabal Therapy with it or sacrifice it to Edge of Autumn to make up for Dredge 2 - I don't know if the deck can race anything in the format with a hand that starts with Dakmor Salvage so counting it as an actual Dredger is rather dubious. Recurring it over another Dredger in the graveyard seems ok, you get to Dredge 2, Landfall a Bloodghast and then either untap for a Cabal Therapy and/or Edge of Autumn and counter a Daze. I think it's going to come down to is Dredge 2 going to be better than taking a mulligan for a reverse Time Walk.

Fetchlands are just amazing, you get MOAR Dryad Arbor, you get SB Reverent Silence and you never have to keep a hand with a Dredge 2 as opposed to at least a Dredge 4 with Serum Powder triggers.

I'm SBing Chancellor of the Annex right now and just hoping opponents don't have the informational advantage to mulligan aggressively into Deathrite Shaman game 1, it does make me extremely uncomfortable tho' because I feel really soft to combo by not delying their T1 Cantrip.

I also think Serum Powder and Bloodghast is a bit of nonbo, RFGing Bloodghasts really sucks for getting value out of Landfall so I may go back to Shambling Shell - also 6/7 Tarmogoyfs are more irritating than 5/6 Tarmogoyfs when you're reanimating Phantasmagorian.

The Dakmor Salvage/Edge of Autumn list is definitely playable as long as you can overlook the Dakmor Salvage only hands - I may have been a bit biased on my assessment of it by gold fishing with Dakmor Salvage as my only Dredger in hand for a number of games. It is remarkably fast and resilient to Nihil Spellbomb if nothing else.

So basically I'm at no Dread Return targets, SB Chancellor of the Annex, MD Bloodghasts and MOAR Dryad Arbors compared to the conventional lists and every day I'm Cabal Therapying on T2.

[Thrasher]

The Ghast/Edge list fires therapies T2 quite easily. I actually like the idea of the fetches, playing more green sources might actually allow a decent sideboard with green cards. I'd like to find room for at least a couple of Griselbrands, though, the deck fires off DRs really fast, too, and Griselbrand turns a no-bridge graveyard into a killer graveyard, which is mostly useful against combo.

[AmokPL]

All I'm saying is having a dedicated DR target is just another option for winning in case your swarming plan goes bad (Ensnaring Bridge, Wrath of God, Moat etc).

[Final Fortune]

All I'm saying is having a dedicated DR target is just another option for winning in case your swarming plan goes bad (Ensnaring Bridge, Wrath of God, Moat etc).

Board sweepers are irrelevant vs us, Moat is too slow vs us and well I'll be dipped in shit if I'm paired against the one guy playing MUD or Enchantress.

@Thread

Yeah the Bloodghast, Dakmor Salvage, Edge of Autumn list is definitely good at resolving Cabal Therapies and overwhelming the board quickly, in a metagame light on Deathrite Shaman I'd totally endorse it at this point in gold fishing it - I may play it any way because playing Edge of Autumn in Legacy feels like trolling my opponents on MTGO so hard.

Otherwise i think I'd play a list with Serum Powder, Chancellor of the Annex, Dryad Arbor and the Griselbrand combo package for just being all around solid, you really can't go wrong with that vs anything.

[Mr. Froggy]

The point is dedicated Dread Return targets can be a waste of space, resolving Dread Return is often just as good at winning in the follwing as it is at winning now, and unlike Golgari Grave Troll Dread Returning Dryad Arbor and triggering Landfall puts multiple bodies on the table to swarm against the opponent by sacrificing them again to another Dread Return and creating a critcal mass of Zombies.

@ Mr. Froggy

My lists are always going to be slower than other lists if you compare them by gold fishing, the problem with gold fishing is that you're disregarding interactions like Deathrite Shaman, go that can lead to automatic game loses G2 when the opponent knows what you're playing, mulligans aggressively for Deathrite Shaman and gets an additional card by choosing to let you play first. A lot of people's decisions with Dredge aren't based on playing actual games of Magic, The Interactivity so cards like Griselbrand/Flayer of the Hatebound get more weight than they should.

Right now I'm trying a list with Bloodghast, Dakmor Salvage and Edge of Autumn without Serum Powder, Shambling Shells or Chancellor of the Annex and I'm trying a list with Bloodghast, 4 additional fetchlands for Dryad Arbor and Serum Powder and without Chancelor of the Annex just to see how the deck works with an increased count of Landfall + Draw and increased count of Landfall + Cabal Therapy/Dread Return targets.



I did try it though, but I just felt that DRing a Dryad Arbor to trigger Landfall was kind of a waste of a DR. I guess its just my Johnny playstyle.

[Final Fortune]

I did try it though, but I just felt that DRing a Dryad Arbor to trigger Landfall was kind of a waste of a DR. I guess its just my Johnny playstyle.

I usually only do that to chain Dread Returns, otherwise its Troll/Phantasmagorian beats.

[Michael Keller]

No matter what list any of you settle on, it's good to see the thread lit up again.

That's what I wanted :-)

[Mr. Froggy]

Because of all the buzz about Manaless Dredge, Ichorids are now 22tix on MTGO. :P

[AmokPL]

Otherwise i think I'd play a list with Serum Powder, Chancellor of the Annex, Dryad Arbor and the Griselbrand combo package for just being all around solid, you really can't go wrong with that vs anything.

I'm just trying to stuck everything into one list.

[Mr. Froggy]

I feel like I want to add Serum Powder in my list, but not sure what to cut...

[Final Fortune]

I'm just trying to stuck everything into one list.

Everything fits,

4 Serum Powder

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith

4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Dryad Arbor

4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below

4 Dread Return
3 Griselbrand
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

That just seems generically good vs everything, you've got Fort Knox security vs Deathrite Shaman.

[Mr. Froggy]

Everything fits,

4 Serum Powder

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith

4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Dryad Arbor

4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below

4 Dread Return
3 Griselbrand
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

That just seems generically good vs everything, you've got Fort Knox security vs Deathrite Shaman.

I really like this list!

[Michael Keller]

Serum Powdering into Chancellor seems fun.

[Final Fortune]

Serum Powdering into Chancellor seems fun.

Wait for when you get to drop Leyline of the Void on people

[Michael Keller]

Beat Storm round one.

Game three: He's at 14. I have two Bridges in the yard. Flashback Therapy, targeting me. Bin two Dread Returns. Bring Flayer back (10). Flash back the other DR, target Grisrlbrand - Flayer Undying (5), Griselbrand to the dome (-2).

[Mr. Froggy]

Beat Storm round one.

Game three: He's at 14. I have two Bridges in the yard. Flashback Therapy, targeting me. Bin two Dread Returns. Bring Flayer back (10). Flash back the other DR, target Grisrlbrand - Flayer Undying (5), Griselbrand to the dome (-2).

Griselbrand still doing his thing!

EDIT: Also, Hollywood, when is the new primer coming? ;)

[Michael Keller]

Wound up going 3-3. Here were my matchups by round:

1: Storm (2-1)
2: Elves! (1-2)
3: Storm (0-2)
4: Burn (2-0)
5: Junk (1-2)
6: Storm (2-1)

I misplayed round two in game three - a misplay that cost me the round. In turns in round five, I just scooped to a friend with better breakers.

All in all, Serum Powder was simply amazing. I also fiddled around with the main, and did not play Bloodghasts in my list. I also posted a 2-1 record against Storm on the day, due in large part to Powder->Trap/gas.

[Mr. Froggy]

Wound up going 3-3. Here were my matchups by round:

1: Storm (2-1)
2: Elves! (1-2)
3: Storm (0-2)
4: Burn (2-0)
5: Junk (1-2)
6: Storm (2-1)

I misplayed round two in game three - a misplay that cost me the round. In turns in round five, I just scooped to a friend with better breakers.

All in all, Serum Powder was simply amazing. I also fiddled around with the main, and did not play Bloodghasts in my list. I also posted a 2-1 record against Storm on the day, due in large part to Powder->Trap/gas.

3 Storm decks, and you got a 2-1 record. Not bad.

Mind sharing the list you used?

[Michael Keller]

I also managed to beat that Junk deck game one with double-Deathrite shaman on board and three cards left in my deck.

List/details to follow...

[Mr. Froggy]

I also managed to beat that Junk deck game one with double-Deathrite shaman on board and three cards left in my deck.

List/details to follow...

Damn... I'm intrigued to know how you pulled that off..

[Michael Keller]

Damn... I'm intrigued to know how you pulled that off..

Proactive opponents with a desire to munch on the graveyard a wee bit too soon.

[Michael Keller]

Ran this list:

4 Serum Powder
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
2 Griselbrand
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Ashen Rider

Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Ashen Rider
2 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Emerald Charm

The most glaringly big change in this list is the notable inclusion of Faerie Macabre in the main. This venue has a notoriously high number of Reanimator decks, so it was a clear-cut meta adjustment. I had seen multiple Reanimator and Show and Tell decks around me, and in a 45-person tournament, I felt comfortable enough against mid-range and other aggro decks that I just simply wanted to shore up the harder matchups right off the bat. I used to run four Faeries in an older variation of the list, and they're rarely ever a dead card in hand.

The most important thing to understand is that my deck and sideboard were completely metagamed for this tournament. Ironically, I didn't run into a single Reanimator deck - even though close to 25% of the field was running it. Still, I ran into Storm twice and wound up 2-1 against it, which I was extremely happy with.

Serum Powder was simply amazing. Honestly, there wasn't a time in the game where it wound up hurting me. In fact, when it did show up with hands that included Street Wraith or Phantasmagorian, I was happier to see it at least giving me the option to potentially find something better as opposed to it being a Narcomoeba or another useless card to start the game off with. I can't ever see myself removing this card ever again from any Manaless list, as it truly shines and gives the player running it a chance to open with something stronger - much like you would in Vintage in trying to open with a Bazaar of Baghdad.

I wound up beating the Junk player game one of the fifth round with two Deathrite Shaman on board with only three cards left in my library. I was able to achieve this with Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian, all the while tying up his resources. He only had one green source available early on, which allowed him to nab only a single creature at a time. He just couldn't keep up with the generation of creature after creature off of Bridge from Below(s). His board at the end of the game had a Maze of Ith, two Deathrite Shaman a Stoneforge Mystic and two Tarmogoyf. My board had multiple zombies and a few Narcomoebas. He had already exiled my Griselbrands and Ashen Rider, in addition to three Dread Returns. Oddly enough, he left my Flayer in the graveyard - and with both of his Shamans tapped, I had to hit my last Dread Return in a dredge-six off a Troll with ten cards left in my deck. I hit it, bring Flayer into play - doming him for four. I make a huge number of zombies, and the following turn after drawing a natural card for turn, I proceed to overwhelm him with a huge number of threats - dealing fifteen damage to him - with him having the ability to only gain four life from the Shamans while being at ten (which would only bring him to fourteen).

Deathrite Shaman, honestly fellas, isn't that hard to beat. Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith are complete blowouts against the card, and again - you're forcing your opponent to tie up their resources into using it - which in turn potentially disallows them from playing anything for the first few turns. I also had to deal with three Swords to Plowshares that game.

As far as the game against the Elves! player goes, I had the game in hand with a bunch of folks looking on. I would have been able to bring back Griselbrand, albeit with no dredger in my graveyard if I had done so. This in turn would have made all the difference in the world, as discarding a Phantasmagorian with a ridiculous amount of gas would have just allowed me to blow the game open during his turn, forcing him to use his Gaea's Cradle-fueled, newly-found GSZenith'd Scavenging Ooze into exiling all of my pitched dredgers, which would have been impossible for him to do if I had drawn fourteen cards and discarded all of them during his turn to Phantasmagorian, giving me the opportunity to win on my turn. As soon as I passed the turn, I knew this, and just slumped in my chair.

So after punting a win away, scooping a friend on and losing to Storm once out of three games, I felt really good about my performance. Things just didn't fall my way yesterday and that's how it happens sometimes.

Anyhow...I still believe going with the four Faerie Macabres was a mistake, as was the sideboard configuration at the last minute. I wanted to mitigate free game-one wins to potential Reanimator opponents, which there were plenty of. Show and Tell was also plentiful, so again - it was all a meta change.

[Mr. Froggy]

I'll try to find some room for Serum Powder, maybe even go with your list Hollywood.

[Mr. Froggy]

This is my list, for now:
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[3x] Shambling Shell
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[3x] Contagion
[2x] Gitaxian Probe
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Dread Return
[2x] Griselbrand
[2x] Flayer of the Hatebound
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex

I found room for 2 G. Probes, I find they speed up the deck somewhat. Also having free info from our opponents' hands is extremely useful.

Yes, I still run Contagion, I find them really good for the meta I face online...

Now, I think I may cut one Flayer and try Ashen Rider, I find them really tech'y. I like it. Having random outs vs decks is always fun I think.

[Michael Keller]

I'm thinking of heading back towards Contagion, too. Clearly, the original iteration of the deck was successful with those cards.

Additionally, Probes seem like a good fit in a new build.

[Mr. Froggy]

Contagion is one of my favorite cards in the deck, in all honesty.

One thing I like to do is to kill one of their guys, one of my mine, stack Bridge triggers and end up with 2-3 zombies with them usually having no other creatures in play.

Yes, I get rid of my Bridges, I know. I just find that Manaless doesn't rely on them nearly as much as LED.

[Modus Pwnens]

As far as the game against the Elves! player goes, I had the game in hand with a bunch of folks looking on. I would have been able to bring back Griselbrand, albeit with no dredger in my graveyard if I had done so. This in turn would have made all the difference in the world, as discarding a Phantasmagorian with a ridiculous amount of gas would have just allowed me to blow the game open during his turn, forcing him to use his Gaea's Cradle-fueled, newly-found GSZenith'd Scavenging Ooze into exiling all of my pitched dredgers, which would have been impossible for him to do if I had drawn fourteen cards and discarded all of them during his turn to Phantasmagorian, giving me the opportunity to win on my turn. As soon as I passed the turn, I knew this, and just slumped in my chair.

So after punting a win away, scooping a friend on and losing to Storm once out of three games, I felt really good about my performance. Things just didn't fall my way yesterday and that's how it happens sometimes.

Obviously DRing Griselbrand would have worked just fine, but this is one of the reasons that I still run the Balustrade Spy, you would have been able to combo out without passing the turn in this situation. (therefore, without giving the elves player a chance to comeback with Ooze and Cradle)

About those new "Techs", im looking forward to trying Serum Powder myself, it looks really good on paper. I usually do a lot of mulligans against Deathrite Shaman and Storm decks (I just can't keep hands without Phantasmagorian and Wraiths), and Serum Powder would obviously help with that.

I have a question though, how good was your Ashen Rider maindeck? was it solely used because of your SnT/reanimator Meta? Wouldn't another Griselbrand or Flayer just be better (Helps your odds of winning straight away)?

[Michael Keller]

Obviously DRing Griselbrand would have worked just fine, but this is one of the reasons that I still run the Balustrade Spy, you would have been able to combo out without passing the turn in this situation. (therefore, without giving the elves player a chance to comeback with Ooze and Cradle)

Right, but that also opens you up to susceptibility vs. all kinds of hate without being able to fight back. It's especially backbreaking against Surgical Extraction, a card this deck laughs at in most circumstances.


I have a question though, how good was your Ashen Rider maindeck? was it solely used because of your SnT/reanimator Meta? Wouldn't another Griselbrand or Flayer just be better (Helps your odds of winning straight away)?

Ashen Rider was relevant in a few situations and I really liked it. It's a reasonable target against a variety of decks and provides some variety with Serum Powder in the event you exile your hand. Although, redundancy could be important by adding another Flayer in the event one gets exiled; I played one main due to the huge number of Show and Tell/Reanimator in that meta. It was seriously like walking through a land mine.

Still, I love the deck's ability to fight Reanimator post-board with Faerie Macabre. That card is a blowout.

[dreinal13]

I need help in improving my SB strategies. Currently I'm going with 3 Fetches and 1 Forest + a set of Nature's Claim to deal with the hate and honestly, even with Serum Powder it only gives me a marginal strategy and it doesn't really give me the better edge that I need. I've always been curious about the Dryad Arbor but can someone explain how it works? I'm fairly new to this variant of Dredge and although I find it really fun to play with, I want to take my play to the next level by constantly learning new tech especially geared towards protecting my game plan.

So my ultimate question would be, if it's safe to assume that there will always be GY hate in any meta, whether it's via DRS, RiP, or whatever, how does a good Manaless Dredge player go around it specifically when it comes to game 2-3? I wouldn't be considering answers like "if you're expecting RiP meta, don't play this deck because I know as a fairly established deck in the meta, even amidst GY hate this deck will still be able to smash face. Plus, it's really fun to play with so yeah any thoughts/suggestions are highly encouraged. TIA.

[Mr. Froggy]

I need help in improving my SB strategies. Currently I'm going with 3 Fetches and 1 Forest + a set of Nature's Claim to deal with the hate and honestly, even with Serum Powder it only gives me a marginal strategy and it doesn't really give me the better edge that I need. I've always been curious about the Dryad Arbor but can someone explain how it works? I'm fairly new to this variant of Dredge and although I find it really fun to play with, I want to take my play to the next level by constantly learning new tech especially geared towards protecting my game plan.

So my ultimate question would be, if it's safe to assume that there will always be GY hate in any meta, whether it's via DRS, RiP, or whatever, how does a good Manaless Dredge player go around it specifically when it comes to game 2-3? I wouldn't be considering answers like "if you're expecting RiP meta, don't play this deck because I know as a fairly established deck in the meta, even amidst GY hate this deck will still be able to smash face. Plus, it's really fun to play with so yeah any thoughts/suggestions are highly encouraged. TIA.

Have you thought of Reverent Silence? Its pretty good at what it does.

[Shade909]

I need help in improving my SB strategies. Currently I'm going with 3 Fetches and 1 Forest + a set of Nature's Claim to deal with the hate and honestly, even with Serum Powder it only gives me a marginal strategy and it doesn't really give me the better edge that I need. I've always been curious about the Dryad Arbor but can someone explain how it works? I'm fairly new to this variant of Dredge and although I find it really fun to play with, I want to take my play to the next level by constantly learning new tech especially geared towards protecting my game plan.

So my ultimate question would be, if it's safe to assume that there will always be GY hate in any meta, whether it's via DRS, RiP, or whatever, how does a good Manaless Dredge player go around it specifically when it comes to game 2-3? I wouldn't be considering answers like "if you're expecting RiP meta, don't play this deck because I know as a fairly established deck in the meta, even amidst GY hate this deck will still be able to smash face. Plus, it's really fun to play with so yeah any thoughts/suggestions are highly encouraged. TIA.

Increasing reliability against hate is what they have been testing Serum Powder for. (you'll have to forgive me, I've literally only just signed up to this forum so have no idea how to link cards)
Main-decking Serum Powder allows you to more reliably search for & open with your GY hate answers, be it Chancellor of the Annex/Phantasmagorian/Street Wraith for DRS or for a Dryad Arbor/Forest and Reverent Silence/Nature's Claim against RiP/Leyline of the Void.

The Dryad Arbors count as forests, helping you get your enchantment destruction online, but also count as saccable creatures that you can play from your hand if you open with it, and can stack above Nether Shadow in gyard.
Additionally, if you're running Bloodghasts, they can net you an additional 1-4 creatures when played.


Also, just wanted to say thanks to everyone in this thread, I read through this a few weeks ago and have been playing manaless ever since, really enjoying the pretty much daily innovation and in-depth testing & reporting.

[ahg113]

Noob question-

When exiling the hand with a Serum Powder, does the rest of the hand have to be revealed, or just the powder? Wondering how much info has to be shared with opponent. Card doesn't say to exile face-up or face-down. Thx.

[Darklingske]

With Powder you exile the entire hand. Since it's exiled, it becomes public info, so your opponent can look at all the exiled cards. Does that answer your question?

[Holly]

Cards exiled are always face up unless the effect that exiled them says they aren't.

Ninjas everywhere.

[Mr. Froggy]

What kind of list would you guys use if you wanted to combat graveyard hate (ie: RiP/Cage)?

[Final Fortune]

What kind of list would you guys use if you wanted to combat graveyard hate (ie: RiP/Cage)?

Wouldn't bother with Grafdigger's Cage at all because Nature's Claim and Dryad Arbor are a non-bo vs any deck with Wasteland, otherwise I'd try a list with Dryad Arbor and additional Fetchlands between the MD and SB to support Reverent Silence. Ultimately tho' I just don't think it's ever going to be a problem this deck can solve and you have to accept that fact, even if you show horn in 8 answers for artifacts and enchantments and 7 more lands in the SB you're conceeding something like your Storm or Reanimator match up and even if you do answer they've basically tripple Time Walked you. I think if you want to play Dredge in a U/w/x dominated metagame you have to play the mana version fwiw. Deathrite Shaman metagames you have the tools to overcome, but Rest in Peace metagames basically obsolete the deck.

[meffeo]

Atm I'm playing a hybrid version of manaless with unmasks md and chancellor:

Creatures:43
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
3 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Street Wraith
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Griselbrand

Spells:16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Unmask

Sideboard:15
3 Forest
3 Nature's Claim
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Reverent Silence


There's one free slot. I was thinking at a dryad arbor (reverent silence, cabal therapy, token and so on).


Went 1-3, lost to merfolk 1-2 (wrong therapy call), lost to rug delver 1-2, won to sneak&show 2-0 (thanks to griselbrand and a large amount of tokens) and lost to rb goblins 0-2 (earwig squad that removes three bridges).

[Mr. Froggy]

Wouldn't bother with Grafdigger's Cage at all because Nature's Claim and Dryad Arbor are a non-bo vs any deck with Wasteland, otherwise I'd try a list with Dryad Arbor and additional Fetchlands between the MD and SB to support Reverent Silence. Ultimately tho' I just don't think it's ever going to be a problem this deck can solve and you have to accept that fact, even if you show horn in 8 answers for artifacts and enchantments and 7 more lands in the SB you're conceeding something like your Storm or Reanimator match up and even if you do answer they've basically tripple Time Walked you. I think if you want to play Dredge in a U/w/x dominated metagame you have to play the mana version fwiw. Deathrite Shaman metagames you have the tools to overcome, but Rest in Peace metagames basically obsolete the deck.

I made a new list, with 4 Dryad Arbor MD and 3 Forest SB.

My SB looks something like this:
4 MB Trap
4 LotV (Leyline of Sanctity hasn't been very useful lately)
4 Nature's Claim
3 Forest

Its kind of a mish-mash but we'll see how it goes.

[Michael Keller]

What about something like this:

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Dryad Arbor
[4x] Bloodghast
[4x] Dread Return
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Serum Powder
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[2x] Flayer of the Hatebound

//Sideboard

[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Nature's Claim
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Reverent Silence

[Mr. Froggy]

I see you don't ever put Chancellor in any of your lists Hollywood, is there a reason for that?

[Michael Keller]

I see you don't ever put Chancellor in any of your lists Hollywood, is there a reason for that?

It isn't necessary (or good for that matter) at combating troublesome decks. It's a flex slot for the most part, and just a terrible top deck. (Granted Powder is the same, but the effect is far more game changing.) It just doesn't do anything but Force Spike, but we beat Deathrite Shaman anyhow. Turn one discard is useless, because the opponent has done nothing aside from that for me to worry about. Sure, take another turn. I'll win in two.

I just don't like it enough to play it. I've tried it tons of times, but found it borderline.

[Mr. Froggy]

It isn't necessary (or good for that matter) at combating troublesome decks. It's a flex slot for the most part, and just a terrible top deck. (Granted Powder is the same, but the effect is far more game changing.) It just doesn't do anything but Force Spike, but we beat Deathrite Shaman anyhow. Turn one discard is useless, because the opponent has done nothing aside from that for me to worry about. Sure, take another turn. I'll win in two.

I just don't like it enough to play it. I've tried it tons of times, but found it borderline.

I agree that its mostly a flex slot, and it is easy to beat DRS once you're used to it. I think I'll try Powder in its place.

I'll post my new list once MTGO is done maintenance, hopefully get some tips on it.

[Michael Keller]

I mean, it's not a bad card, I just don't like it.

[ahg113]

What about something like this:

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Dryad Arbor
[4x] Bloodghast
[4x] Dread Return
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Serum Powder
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[2x] Flayer of the Hatebound

//Sideboard

[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Nature's Claim
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Reverent Silence

I think the more interesting observation is the lack of a "insta-win" type dread return target. I had went down to two Griz and no Shambling Shell for 3 Serum Powder. It appears the other two were cut for a second Flayer and the 4th Serum. Not needing Griz to win, this makes sense. It weakens the Show'n'Tell match-up, cause dropping Griz is just fun.

Another question, why two Verdant Catacombs over Dakmoor Salvage? That doesn't make as much sense, since the number of lands you start with stay the same, slightly lessens the number of dredgers, lower potential for landfall triggers for ghast.

I'm not in love with Mindbreak Trap for non-belcher storm decks, but there's not much better. I dig the Claims, Silence and Macabre. I like Chancellor, but am beginning to feel it's a trap (much like any of the Leylines- not a fan for this deck.) Relying on it to be in the opening hand, and then it's functionally a dead card there (stacking ontop of Shadows aside), seems like it should do more.

Do you miss having removal at all? A resolved Elesh Norn is game over. I'm a fan of Sickening Shoal cause Phant can murder most things.

[Michael Keller]

I think the more interesting observation is the lack of a "insta-win" type dread return target. I had went down to two Griz and no Shambling Shell for 3 Serum Powder. It appears the other two were cut for a second Flayer and the 4th Serum. Not needing Griz to win, this makes sense. It weakens the Show'n'Tell match-up, cause dropping Griz is just fun.

Flayer of the Hatebound is, under most circumstances, an instant win target. If you have enough gas to get three creatures into play, you've probably already attacked your opponent to a low enough life total where either another Therapy and or another Dread Return will seal the game. This is especially true with the second Flayer, which is included for not only redundancy in the event the first gets exiled to Serum Powder, but for ridiculously powerful tricks with multiple Dread Returns.


Another question, why two Verdant Catacombs over Dakmoor Salvage? That doesn't make as much sense, since the number of lands you start with stay the same, slightly lessens the number of dredgers, lower potential for landfall triggers for ghast.

I'm a little confused...how does Verdant Catacombs lower the potential for Bloodghast Landfall triggers? With Bloodghasts in your graveyard, playing one of these not only triggers the return of those Bloodghasts, but once they are sacrificed, you can crack the fetch for a Dryad Arbor and trigger them back into play again. Remember, you're playing Serum Powder, so there's a good chance you'll open the game with a land. Dakmor Salvage at two is just a useless dredge under most circumstances - with the Catacombs providing additional ways of finding your green source preboard, providing synergy with Bloodghast and protecting your Arbors so you can grab them at the end of an opponent's turn when they're tapped out for whatever they're playing.

We discussed the big play potential previously about Dread Returning Dryad Arbor if the situation calls for it. Not only does this line of play allow for a ridiculous amount of tokens, it brings you back your Bloodghasts and your Arbor. While not the deck's primary win engine, this line of play can overwhelm an opponent very quickly. Dakmor Salvage is just a bad land drop to start the game and is an even more worse card to dredge on turns three to four. If you're dredging that by then, you've probably already lost.


I'm not in love with Mindbreak Trap for non-belcher storm decks, but there's not much better.

There really isn't much better, and in all honesty, Storm is the deck's worst possible match-up. However, Serum Powder has changed that so you can open the game up with one to start the game. This at least buys you time and can often blow an opponent out.


A resolved Elesh Norn is game over. I'm a fan of Sickening Shoal cause Phant can murder most things.

I'm aware of that, and I used to run Shoal for that very reason. Although, a blowout Faerie Macabre on the Reanimator player is usually game over, wiping out their number one target and clearing the path for victory.

[Mr. Froggy]

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[3x] Shambling Shell
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[3x] Contagion
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Dread Return
[2x] Griselbrand
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound
[4x] Dryad Arbor
[3x] Serum Powder

What do you guys think of this?

EDIT: I really like what I'm seeing with Serum Powder, gives the deck so much more speed when you rip it in the opener. When you do, its like playing with a 53 card deck, its quite impressive. Awesome find Hollywood!

[Final Fortune]

It isn't necessary (or good for that matter) at combating troublesome decks. It's a flex slot for the most part, and just a terrible top deck. (Granted Powder is the same, but the effect is far more game changing.) It just doesn't do anything but Force Spike, but we beat Deathrite Shaman anyhow. Turn one discard is useless, because the opponent has done nothing aside from that for me to worry about. Sure, take another turn. I'll win in two.

I just don't like it enough to play it. I've tried it tons of times, but found it borderline.

I don't understand this, I've played game, after game, after game vs Deathrite Shaman.dec on MTGO and Manaless Dredge does not have enough MD answers to address a T1 Deathrite Shaman between Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian regardless of Serum Powder. But instead of MDing or SBing the 1 card that best stops both Deathrite Shaman and Relic of Progenitus, gives the deck soft disruption vs. the format and a Dread Return target vs Storm you'd rather dedicate 7 cards in your SB vs Rest in Peace with only 6 mana sources that can cast those 7 cards when all 6 of those mana sources have summoning sickness for Nature's Claim and are some how supposed to survive a turn vs a removal spell or Wasteland or have another mana to pay for a Daze ...

This deck is 100% about addressing the match ups that it can win and avoiding the match ups that it can't win, like any other glass cannon, and I really don't know why you think it's ok not to have an incredibly high win % vs Deathrite Shaman.dec with 4 MD/SB cards but it's ok to have an incredibly low win % vs Rest in Peace.dec even with 7 SB cards. The MD space, SB space, math and interaction is just not in our favour vs any deck playing Rest in Peace other than Death&Taxes, where it's effectively just a bad Leyline of Sanctity, and why I only really advocate trying to deal with combo and Deathrite Shaman because the cards that deal with those are completely free.

I mean, if you want to SB Chancellor of the Annex so you can play a more "home brew" version of Manaless Dredge with Edge of Autum and Dakmor Salvage at least I can get that because not every deck in the format plays Deathrite Shaman and it is pretty fun and powerful, but not taking the lock on the matches we can win outright and playing a ton of cards instead that are inneffectual vs Rest in Peace (especially since that card was moved into a tempo shell with Daze) just seems like incredibly bad metagaming to me.

At most I'd SB Reverent Silence and pray to the god's of variance it works.

Also I'm just not a huge fan of Dread Return targets in the Bloodghast lists, I always think "these could be 2 more Fetchlands" and just end up cutting them because Fetchlands in the MD just make so much more sense than in the SB considering they are straight up business with Bloodghast.

[AmokPL]

I have to agree. I was a big advocate of anti hate sb but as much as I love to getting rid of RiP I don't like to draw go few turns, getting Rev. Silence and having it countered or gaping at second RiP dropped afterwards. Having half of the sb dedicated to fight a single colored card is just a waste of space.

On Bloodghast list - I don't play it but I think green fetches would be a better way than Dakmor Salvage. Salvage is a really poor dredger and fetches getting you Dryad and activating Ghasts are much nicer :)

[Final Fortune]

Yeah, the biggest problem with Rest in Peace is that the damage is already done, as soon as you discard a dredger and pass the opponent plays Rest in Peace, RFGs your dredger and then you have to play Dryad Arbor, cast Reverent Silence, resolve it and wait three turns before you can even start dredging so your opponent pretty much traded two for one and tripple time walked you anyway. I mean, I stopped playing Contagion because it was essentially the same thing vs Deathrite Shaman, and Contagion was far less conditional than Reverent Silence in order to cast.

[Mr. Froggy]

There's only one thing though I disagree with; fighting DRS. Even when I don't open with a Chancellor I don't feel its nearly as hard to fight through once you've gotten used to it.

[Michael Keller]

I don't understand this, I've played game, after game, after game vs Deathrite Shaman.dec on MTGO and Manaless Dredge does not have enough MD answers to address a T1 Deathrite Shaman between Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian regardless of Serum Powder. But instead of MDing or SBing the 1 card that bests both Deathrite Shaman and Relic of Progenitus, gives the deck soft disruption vs. the format and a Dread Return target vs Storm you'd rather dedicate 7 cards in your SB vs Rest in Peace with only 6 mana sources that can cast those 7 cards when all 6 of those mana sources have summoning sickness for Nature's Claim and are some how supposed to survive a turn vs a removal spell or Wasteland or have another mana to pay for a Daze ...

Serum Powder, in all fairness, is virtually another answer to Deathrite Shaman. If you're opening the game with one of twelve cards to beat it, you're not losing to it. I did this last weekend and beat double DRS online with three cards left in my deck.

Trust me, there's enough. The percentages are glaringly in your favor turn one to counter an inaugural activation.


This deck is 100% about addressing the match ups that it can win and avoiding the match ups that it can't win, like any other glass cannon, and I really don't know why you think it's ok not to have an incredibly high win % vs Deathrite Shaman.dec with 4 MD/SB cards but it's ok to have an incredibly low win % vs Rest in Peace.dec even with 7 SB cards.

This is extremely confusing. Manaless Dredge is not a glass cannon, I'm sorry. It wins a majority of its game ones and with a properly-tailored sideboard games two and three. Seriously, you're on crack if you don't think opening the game with one of twelve cards - eight of which can be drawn by turn one to effect - is not enough to beat Deathrite Shaman.

Linear I can get behind. Glass cannon, not so much.


The MD space, SB space, math and interaction is just not in our favour vs any deck playing Rest in Peace other than Death&Taxes, where it's effectively just a bad Leyline of Sanctity, and why I only really advocate trying to deal with combo and Deathrite Shaman because the cards that deal with those are completely free.

Death and Taxes drops a turn-two Rest in Peace. We blow it up and there's nothing they can do about it. They hardly interact with us and with Serum Powder, you're looking at incredibly favorable odds of beating the card - especially against a deck without counter-magic.

Not worried about it.


I mean, if you want to SB Chancellor of the Annex so you can play a more "home brew" version of Manaless Dredge with Edge of Autum and Dakmor Salvage at least I can get that because not every deck in the format plays Deathrite Shaman and it is pretty fun and powerful, but not taking the lock on the matches we can win outright and playing a ton of cards instead that are inneffectual vs Rest in Peace (especially since that card was moved into a tempo shell with Daze) just seems like incredibly bad metagaming to me.

We've been down this road already a million times before: I don't like Chancellor. I never will. And sideboard RiPs in tempo shells seems terrible outright. It's a meta fad that will fade into obscurity like most oddball boarding strategies have before it.

If an opponent has RiP and Daze, we're dead anyway, so what difference does it make? Wait and fetch EoT to protect the Arbor, untap and use the mana if you need to. Otherwise, it makes no difference.


At most I'd SB Reverent Silence and pray to the god's of variance it works.

With four Reverent Silence and four Serum Powder, I'm sure seeing at likely minimum fourteen cards before the game begins - the math is GREATLY in your favor of seeing an answer as opposed to the opponent needing one of probably only two or three of their said hate cards, the correct mana to cast it and another card to protect it.

Let's not forget that a mulligan(s) from an opponent is also likely, where their hand is likely warped as the weight of said hate card dictates the keep or not.


Also I'm just not a huge fan of Dread Return targets in the Bloodghast lists, I always think "these could be 2 more Fetchlands" and just end up cutting them because Fetchlands in the MD just make so much more sense than in the SB considering they are straight up business with Bloodghast.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Folks, let me make myself clear: I don't care if I give my opponent and extra turn or two, and I'll tell you why. The decks that wind up getting the extra turn(s) are not likely the ones that are going to be killing you or doing anything relevant in that time frame.

TL, DR: Decks that typically get the extra turn or two aren't the ones that win that fast. We have the explosive capability to overwhelm an opponent when that time comes.

[Mr. Froggy]

I just fought through Pox who went Turn 1 E. Plague on Illusion and Extraction on Bridge from Below. Nether Shadow/Ichorid beats FTW.

[Thrasher]

Serum Powder, in all fairness, is virtually another answer to Deathrite Shaman. If you're opening the game with one of twelve cards to beat it, you're not losing to it. I did this last weekend and beat double DRS online with three cards left in my deck.

Serum powder makes it a bit harder to chain dredgers but yes, it works for that, too.

Trust me, there's enough. The percentages are glaringly in your favor turn one to counter an inaugural activation.



This is extremely confusing. Manaless Dredge is not a glass cannon, I'm sorry. It wins a majority of its game ones and with a properly-tailored sideboard games two and three. Seriously, you're on crack if you don't think opening the game with one of twelve cards - eight of which can be drawn by turn one to effect - is not enough to beat Deathrite Shaman.

Linear I can get behind. Glass cannon, not so much.



Death and Taxes drops a turn-two Rest in Peace. We blow it up and there's nothing they can do about it. They hardly interact with us and with Serum Powder, you're looking at incredibly favorable odds of beating the card - especially against a deck without counter-magic.

Not worried about it.

I'd say you need a lot of luck to win with that sideboard, if the opponent gets his stuff going. With the 3 timewalks you give your opponent with the "land, reverent silence" line of play, he should be able to either cast Stoneforge Mystic or Thalia.



We've been down this road already a million times before: I don't like Chancellor. I never will. And sideboard RiPs in tempo shells seems terrible outright. It's a meta fad that will fade into obscurity like most oddball boarding strategies have before it.

If an opponent has RiP and Daze, we're dead anyway, so what difference does it make? Wait and fetch EoT to protect the Arbor, untap and use the mana if you need to. Otherwise, it makes no difference.



With four Reverent Silence and four Serum Powder, I'm sure seeing at likely minimum fourteen cards before the game begins - the math is GREATLY in your favor of seeing an answer as opposed to the opponent needing one of probably only two or three of their said hate cards, the correct mana to cast it and another card to protect it.

"You see minimum seven cards twice" sounds more fair. The chance of getting both a green source and Reverent Silence doesn't seem that high, with your sideboard.

Let's not forget that a mulligan(s) from an opponent is also likely, where their hand is likely warped as the weight of said hate card dictates the keep or not.

Just a couple of considerations. By the way, i top8'd a 110 people tournament, some days ago. Casting Force of Will on a RiP was a blowout, i'm very satisfied with my sideboard.

My matchups were:
Sneak and show 2-1
Death and Taxes 2-0
Merfolk 2-0
Team America 2-0
UW Thopters 1-1
Team america 2-0
Team america ID

Top 8
Jund 2-0

Split in the semis.


I'm gonna test the Edge of Autumn-Bloodghast list, now, I'm yet to find a sideboard configuration that i like, for that strategy.

[Mr. Froggy]

Just a couple of considerations. By the way, i top8'd a 110 people tournament, some days ago. Casting Force of Will on a RiP was a blowout, i'm very satisfied with my sideboard.

My matchups were:
Sneak and show 2-1
Death and Taxes 2-0
Merfolk 2-0
Team America 2-0
UW Thopters 1-1
Team america 2-0
Team america ID

Top 8
Jund 2-0

Split in the semis.


I'm gonna test the Edge of Autumn-Bloodghast list, now, I'm yet to find a sideboard configuration that i like, for that strategy.

Mind sharing your list? You have me intrigued, lol.

[Michael Keller]

I did that before with Probes and such. Good stuff.

[Thrasher]

Main:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Griselbrand
1 Sickening Shoal
Side:
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Force of Will
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Faerie Macabre

[ahg113]

I'm a little confused...how does Verdant Catacombs lower the potential for Bloodghast Landfall triggers?

Very narrow case where a destroyed Salvage can be redredged for multiple plays. Whether a pox player, annihlator trigger, wasteland, or something random of the sort is destroying the Salvage.

Toss away comment.

The rest I'm digging what you're putting down.

[Mr. Froggy]

All in all, I've been extremely happy with Dryad Arbor MD, just haven't run into the need to side in all my anti-hate. Yet. -_-

[Final Fortune]

I don't think UWR Tempo and SB Rest in Peace is a meta fad, right now UWR Tempo and BUG Tempo are battling for the #1 Tempo deck and Rest in Peace is a powerful SB weapon vs Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker as well as graveyard based strategies; thankfully MD Rest in Peace is no longer a consideration in Miracles, but we're going to be seeing SB Rest in Peaces for some time for certain.

The reason I'm against Reverent Silence is that I don't think Reverent Silence is a consistent answer to Rest in Peace compared to Chancellor of the Annex being a consistent answer to Deathrite Shaman, albeit they're by no means mutually exclusive, and if U/w/x tempo decks are only going to SB 2, maybe 3, copies of Rest in Peace then I don't think spending a huge amount of SB space on addressing that problem is as efficient as spending that SB space to address other problems Storm, Reanimator etc. where other decks have strategy superiority over us.

So either every deck is playing 4 Rest in Peace in their SB and we should stop playing Manaless Dredge altogether, or a lot of decks are playing 2 Rest in Peace in their SB and we can just accept a game loss here or there if they draw their silver bullet post-board and find our EV else where vs the field by not over concentrating on RIP.

I mean it is a linear combo deck, we're going to have to accept there are some metagames where we shouldn't be playing it.

[Michael Keller]

I don't think UWR Tempo and SB Rest in Peace is a meta fad, right now UWR Tempo and BUG Tempo are battling for the #1 Tempo deck and Rest in Peace is a powerful SB weapon vs Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker as well as graveyard based strategies; thankfully MD Rest in Peace is no longer a consideration in Miracles, but we're going to be seeing SB Rest in Peaces for some time for certain.

The reason I'm against Reverent Silence is that I don't think Reverent Silence is a consistent answer to Rest in Peace compared to Chancellor of the Annex being a consistent answer to Deathrite Shaman, albeit they're by no means mutually exclusive, and if U/w/x tempo decks are only going to SB 2, maybe 3, copies of Rest in Peace then I don't think spending a huge amount of SB space on addressing that problem is as efficient as spending that SB space to address other problems Storm, Reanimator etc. where other decks have strategy superiority over us.

So either every deck is playing 4 Rest in Peace in their SB and we should stop playing Manaless Dredge altogether, or a lot of decks are playing 2 Rest in Peace in their SB and we can just accept a game loss here or there if they draw their silver bullet post-board and find our EV else where vs the field by not over concentrating on RIP.

I mean it is a linear combo deck, we're going to have to accept there are some metagames where we shouldn't be playing it.

If some asshole drops a Rest in Peace on me, I'm going to destroy it - one way or another.

And then I'm going to force them to kill me before I kill them; that's just my style.

[ahg113]

If some asshole drops a Rest in Peace on me, I'm going to destroy it - one way or another.

And then I'm going to force them to kill me before I kill them; that's just my style.

Another plus for Revernt Silence, total malarky but happened last night on Apprentice, Wprison.dec. Guy had played a first turn Ghostly Prison. Figured, I can still win. Got him low, then he played Solitary Confinement, but could only keep it alive for two turns, still thought I could win. Turn the Solitary dies, he plays a Humility. Revernt Silence would've been so clutch right there...

When it comes to SB'ing in the hate- I'm running Hollywood's list and SB- where do the cuts come in? I've tried trimming threats, Serum Powder in one game (didn't like), the DR package, feels awkward. Thoughts would be appreciated.

[Michael Keller]

Another plus for Revernt Silence, total malarky but happened last night on Apprentice, Wprison.dec. Guy had played a first turn Ghostly Prison. Figured, I can still win. Got him low, then he played Solitary Confinement, but could only keep it alive for two turns, still thought I could win. Turn the Solitary dies, he plays a Humility. Revernt Silence would've been so clutch right there...

When it comes to SB'ing in the hate- I'm running Hollywood's list and SB- where do the cuts come in? I've tried trimming threats, Serum Powder in one game (didn't like), the DR package, feels awkward. Thoughts would be appreciated.

Serum Powder is just amazing; don't cut it.

[aznxlarry]

I got an idea I wanted to run by you guys really quickly. Seems that Balustrade Spy would hit a roadblock when it comes across a Dryad Arbor or any fetchlands that are still in the deck. Seeing that we are only using the Arbor for the sole purpose to providing access to use Enchantment removal. Why not just take out the Arbor and put in 4 Lotus Petals? This would clear off the problem of running into lands when milling while allowing access to Natures Claim which costs 1 mana. Also because we have access to lotus petal we also can play Cabal Therapy for its casting cost in addition to the flashback cost.

Any input on this Hollywood?

[Final Fortune]

I got an idea I wanted to run by you guys really quickly. Seems that Balustrade Spy would hit a roadblock when it comes across a Dryad Arbor or any fetchlands that are still in the deck. Seeing that we are only using the Arbor for the sole purpose to providing access to use Enchantment removal. Why not just take out the Arbor and put in 4 Lotus Petals? This would clear off the problem of running into lands when milling while allowing access to Natures Claim which costs 1 mana. Also because we have access to lotus petal we also can play Cabal Therapy for its casting cost in addition to the flashback cost.

Any input on this Hollywood?

It's totally wrong, Dryad Arbor is a free, uncounterable creature that accelerates Cabal Therapy and Dread Return; and that's if you're not using it to Landfall Bloodghasts.

[snorlaxcom]

To get multiple landfall triggers throughout the game has anyone tried Petrified Field? You can loop two fields with each other to get a landfall trigger every turn while not having to dredge for a salvage. Fielding for Arbor can also help in casting a therapy or casting a DR more consistently if you miss on the narcomoebas. Or has the fetchland addition been enough landfall for bloodghasts? You would have to actually hit two lands between your hand and the yard to make this any good, so it may be too loose in the deck.

[Final Fortune]

Just use a fetch land, between playing the fetch land and sacrificing it for Dryad Arbor you get two landfall triggers anyway and 8 sources for Reverent Silence.

[rhinoflipper]

I noticed that a lot of old builds ran Noxious Revival. I understand the logic behind the card (recycles Narcomoeba, gets dredged Reverent Silences back in a pinch, messes with Enlightened Tutor and Miracles as a whole), and it seems like a pretty powerful card. Why does nobody run it these days?

[AmokPL]

If some asshole drops a Rest in Peace on me, I'm going to destroy it - one way or another.


how? you will draw-go yourself into Silence and Arbor (or just one piece if you already have the other)? are nowadays decks not fast enough to kill you when given at least few Time Walk turns from their opponent?

[Final Fortune]

how? you will draw-go yourself into Silence and Arbor (or just one piece if you already have the other)? are nowadays decks not fast enough to kill you when given at least few Time Walk turns from their opponent?

Magic, seriously tho' I don't understand it either, it's so conditional and resource intensive that you just lose as soon as they establish a board presence. Between threats, counters and equipment it's just so hard to come back vs a tripple Time Walk from UWR.

[Darklingske]

Hi guys, played a small tournament yesterday (40 peeps) with Manaless. Awesome times and lots of fun. Quick recap:
R1 teammate Jo with BUG delver.
G1 I open a Chancellor and that slows him down. T1 nothing, T2 a delver, T3 delver flipped and delver 2 lands. But I manage to blow him out next turn.
G2 Chancellor again, but he lets me start. No fun, but hey, at least he nows that he has to let me start. Unfortunately he lands T2 Cage and I manage to flip 2 narco's and 1 BfB with my one Wraith. Nut that was not enough to stop him. On to G3!
G3 Chancellor again and he never really gets in the game because he is stuck on 2 lands. So yeah, 2-1.

R2 Kevin with LED-dredge
G1 he starts with T1 double LED, Colliseum. T2 he goes bonkers and dumps like 40 cards in his GY. But unfortunately no Narco's and no DR, but the full complement of 4 bridges. So in my T2 I let Ichorid enter the BF and just let it die. Poof go the bridges and it's an easy race for me.
G2 is a blowout for me. He is too fast and ther is not much I can do.
G3 is a grindfest and we go in time but after a huge dredge from his part he somehow manages to miss the flayer in my GY and just dumps lots of bodies on the BF. In my last turn I just return all my Ichorids & Shadows and DR Flayer, DR GGT for a gazillion damage to the dome. 2-1 it is!

R3 Jona with Sneak and Tell
I know what Jona plays and I'm not so happy. I think this is one of our hardest MU. A relatively fast combo with counters and sided GY-hate.
G1 I open a Chancellor and that slows him down a bit. On his T2 he goes S&T into Grisel, but I drop the Chancellor and that slows him down enough to give me the win at 2 life.
G2 he opens with T1 S&T into Griselbrand after letting me start. I drop Griselbrand too. But it's not enough and he kills me with dual attack of Spaghetti and Grisel.
G3 he lands a T1 Cage and I can't find the Silence or Claims before a dual attack kills me. 1-2

R4 Guillaume with Affinity
A very nice guy. He comments that it is his very first legacy tournament and that he is not sure about his deck. We'll see...
G1 he opens very strong, but no Plating or Ravager. That is enough for me to kill him in one swift alpha strike with FKZ.
Before G2 during sideboarding he is talking about the deck that he's intrigued with it and knows that he should let me start since there is no downside to that for him. So we start G2 and he... starts!!! Okay, if you just said it and then don't want to get a free card and turn, I'm fine with it! But all to no prevail and he kills me in 3 attacks. The Relic of progenitus also helped a bit.
G3 is mine again with DR Flayer and huge GGT. 2-1

R5 teammate Marijn with Esperblade.
G1 I manage to get him on 12 life, but a timely Supreme verdict wipes my board and removes my bridges. He then continues to drop a TNN with a Jitte and that spells doom for me. I die with him on 1 life...
G2 is a topdecked spellpierce the nail in my coffin. Along with a duo of TNN... 0-2

R6 is announced and I'm 10th. If I win this match, I still have a shot at top 8 but it will depend on my resistance.
I'm paired against Steven with UWBlade
G1 his deck doesn't do much and I Flayer him for a total of 36.
G2 is a grindfest with a duo of Meddling Mages opposite me. One on Therapy (T2), next one on DR (T3). But Ichorid, narco's and Shadows munch his life away and give me the win. 2-0

Standings are posted and I'm... 9th :( Because my R3 opponent was high enough he just ID'ed and that sealed my fate. I miss T8 with 0.1% difference with N°8. But hey, lots of fun and awesome games. I'm not unhappy!

[Mr. Froggy]

Awesome report my man! Rep'ing Manaless!

Mind sharing your list?

[Darklingske]

Sure, it's a pretty standard list:

4 GGT
4 Thug
4 SImp
4 Wraith
4 Shadow
4 Ichorid
4 Narco
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Cabal therapy
4 Dread Return
4 serum Powder
4 BfB
4 Phanta
2 Griselbrand
1 FKZ
1 Flayer

SB:
4 MBT
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
3 Nature's Claim
2 Reverent Silence
3 Faerie Macabre

All in all I was pretty happy with the list. The Powders were underwhelming. I never used them and I find it difficult siding with them. If you chose to leave them in to increase the chances of drawing your SBanswers, then what do you remove? I usually sided out a variety of spells. Some DR + targets, a Phanta and most of the time the powders. Pretty contradictory, no? Over all the games I've only mulled twice. And both times my hand was absolute garbage. No dredgers, no phanta, no Wraith and a few narco's.
Next tournament I will try the Autumn list and cut the powders.

[Mr. Froggy]

Sure, it's a pretty standard list:

4 GGT
4 Thug
4 SImp
4 Wraith
4 Shadow
4 Ichorid
4 Narco
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Cabal therapy
4 Dread Return
4 serum Powder
4 BfB
4 Phanta
2 Griselbrand
1 FKZ
1 Flayer

SB:
4 MBT
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
3 Nature's Claim
2 Reverent Silence
3 Faerie Macabre

All in all I was pretty happy with the list. The Powders were underwhelming. I never used them and I find it difficult siding with them. If you chose to leave them in to increase the chances of drawing your SBanswers, then what do you remove? I usually sided out a variety of spells. Some DR + targets, a Phanta and most of the time the powders. Pretty contradictory, no? Over all the games I've only mulled twice. And both times my hand was absolute garbage. No dredgers, no phanta, no Wraith and a few narco's.
Next tournament I will try the Autumn list and cut the powders.

How was running only 12 Dredgers?

[Darklingske]

I never had any problems with it. But i admit that I feel more comfortable with some extra dredgers. Next time I might go back to 15 dredgers and no Chancellors MD. But then I also need to find room for the Salvages and the Ghasts and Autumns. Ahh, dilemma, dilemma :smile:

[Mr. Froggy]

I've always felt that Manaless needed to open up with a Dredger its in opening hand, or first card drawn. But hey, if it works for you. :smile:

[Darklingske]

I've always felt that Manaless needed to open up with a Dredger its in opening hand, or first card drawn. But hey, if it works for you. :smile:
In the tournament I never had a hand without a dredger in it. No, that's a lie. The one time I didn't have a dredger in it, I had a powder to get 7 fresh ones and there were dredgers in it then.

[Mr. Froggy]

Here's a game I had vs DeathBlade, thought it was pretty good.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGi1PS8wV5Q

[Michael Keller]

I'm telling you, Deathrite Shaman is just not that great against the deck. Is it decent? Sure. But it's not that effective when you run two to three times as many sets of cards that beat it.

It's honestly just a really bad Relic against us.

[Michael Keller]

how? you will draw-go yourself into Silence and Arbor (or just one piece if you already have the other)? are nowadays decks not fast enough to kill you when given at least few Time Walk turns from their opponent?

Decks that run Rest in Peace tend be control-based strategies. Most of those decks aren't going to kill you in a turn or two, and if they have protection for their hate card, that's just hard to beat in general and you aren't likely winning the match.

Possible, but not likely. Depends on the config.

"Time Walking" an opponent with no relevant clock for two turns is fine. As I previously mentioned: I had to double-Contagion a Deathrite Shaman through Force of Will before against BUG in a large tournament - I wound up winning both the game and round. Granted, that doesn't happen often, but control decks by nature are just slower so you have more time.

I'm also starting to like Leyline of Sanctity in the board. I never thought I would, but I just can't say enough about how good it has been.

Dropping that card is worth the 'Walk against a deck like Storm or Belcher. Empty the Warrens is still a thing (even though I haven't lost to it in four years), but so is Mindbreak Trap. I really don't like losing to Storm, and it's an omnipresent deck and one of our worst matchups. It also helps against decks like Burn and 12-Post where Bogs do nothing against you.

Remember, I change and test new sideboards...all...the...time. I'm just saying that I like it and it has worked great for me thus far.

[Mr. Froggy]

I was finally able to put my Nature's Claims to good use!

I had no clue what I was playing against though...

I win Game 1 (he plays Semblance Anvil lockdown/combo?) because he doesn't do anything to really stop me.
I lose Game 2 since I didn't know what I should board in; he opens up with LotV. Scoop.
I win Game 3 after mull to 6 with both Arbor and Nature's Claim. He opens up with LotV. I kill it, proceed to kill him with Flayer combo.

[ahg113]

Congrats. It feels good to beat hate. Not sporting to think there are many, many douche's in the world, especially to Dredge players, and especially to manaless dredge players, but yeah, if the opponent was, even sweeter.

[Mr. Froggy]

Congrats. It feels good to beat hate. Not sporting to think there are many, many douche's in the world, especially to Dredge players, and especially to manaless dredge players, but yeah, if the opponent was, even sweeter.

He didn't say much at all, actually, lol.

But I felt good beig able to beat LotV. :)

[GoldenCid]

I win Game 1 (he plays Semblance Anvil lockdown/combo?)

What is this?

[Mr. Froggy]

What is this?

I had no clue, laid it down turn 1-2 with City of Traitors, and started crapping out 3CMC artifacts (Ensnaring Bridge for example).

[Michael Keller]

Got the go-ahead to do the new primer.

[snorlaxcom]

Got the go-ahead to do the new primer.

Bout time :smile:

[Mr. Froggy]

I was about to win vs Mono-White Soldiers with Manaless (I even killed his RiP), and then MTGO shat on me.. -_-

[Final Fortune]

I'm telling you, Deathrite Shaman is just not that great against the deck. Is it decent? Sure. But it's not that effective when you run two to three times as many sets of cards that beat it.

It's honestly just a really bad Relic against us.

The point is Deathrite Shaman shouldn't even be good vs us, it should be bad vs us because there's no other card Manaless Dredge could play, be it Unmask, Gitaxian Probe, Fetchlands, Shambling Shells, Dakmor Salvages or Bloodghasts that's going to contribute more to your win% vs the field. Even if Deathrite Shaman only has a, for example, 8% chance of winning the game outright it may as well be only a, for example, 4% chance as long as Chancellor of the Annex is generically good vs everything else - and it is in my opinion - it may not be necessary in order for Manaless Dredge to compete in a Deathrite Shaman based metagame, but it's definitely the highest EV card we can add in a Deathrite Shaman based metagame.

[Mr. Froggy]

Got the go-ahead to do the new primer.

Perfect! Can't wait to read it!

[ahg113]

My SB is currently

4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Nature's Claim
3 Reverent Silence

In the decks I want to board in the anti-hate, my Dryad Arbors are dying before they can do any good. So, where to put a forest or two? Initial thought is for one of the dryad arbors, but that's stupid. Not sure where to make a cut, I'd prefer it to be in the sb. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Cheers,
love this deck

[carefulmug]

@ ahg113

I think the typical protocol would be dedication to either Reverent Silence or Nature's Claim, then +2 fetchland, +1 Forest to SB.

However, if you're running into enough GY hate to justify 7-10 (10 including 2 Fetch, 1 Forest) cards in your SB, that may also suggest you are not running into very much Storm or Belcher (which frequently outraces us with or without hate), so you might be able to cut the Mindbreak Traps.

[Michael Keller]

After years of waiting, I look forward to competing this Sunday with Manaless Dredge @ SCG: Baltimore!

[snorlaxcom]

After years of waiting, I look forward to competing this Sunday with Manaless Dredge @ SCG: Baltimore!

Here's hoping I get to see your zombies in action next to me and not across from me :p

[Mr. Froggy]

After years of waiting, I look forward to competing this Sunday with Manaless Dredge @ SCG: Baltimore!

Good luck! Make us proud!

[ahg113]

@ ahg113

I think the typical protocol would be dedication to either Reverent Silence or Nature's Claim, then +2 fetchland, +1 Forest to SB.

However, if you're running into enough GY hate to justify 7-10 (10 including 2 Fetch, 1 Forest) cards in your SB, that may also suggest you are not running into very much Storm or Belcher (which frequently outraces us with or without hate), so you might be able to cut the Mindbreak Traps.

Failed to mention there's a couple of V. Catacombs in the MD already, 6 total lands, and moving to a 7th to the SB. There have been a few instances in testing that a normally dead wasteland proved detrimental.

[Mr. Froggy]

Failed to mention there's a couple of V. Catacombs in the MD already, 6 total lands, and moving to a 7th to the SB. There have been a few instances in testing that a normally dead wasteland proved detrimental.

I run 3 Forest SB, just in case.

[GoldenCid]

After Reading the last pages i have a question for those who used serum powder.

Was i determinant at any extent?

Was i relevant only in g2?

How did you feel when topdecked it expecting another card?

THx°!

[TableTopMagic]

After years of waiting, I look forward to competing this Sunday with Manaless Dredge @ SCG: Baltimore!

If you seen Feline while your there tell her David said hello! If she isn't sure who your talking about just tell he what deck you are playing and she will know who your talking about. :P I almost talked her into picking up the deck after SCG Milwaukee.

Good luck!