MonoG Zenith Abuse

[novatinhu]

Good morning dear friends, :laugh:
Yesterday (7-24-2011) while Im watching the SCG open and looking to my Skinshifter (recently taked) I had the idea that now is possible to play with a deck MonoG Deck and have an answer for almost everything, something that was not possible some time ago, so I decided to build a list and now I present it to us try improve this new possibility.



http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1585/monogabuse.jpg
MonoG Zenith Abuse



MonoG Zenith Abuse by Novatinhu (without NO+Projenitus)

Lands - 21
9 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Windswept Heath
1 Pendelhaven


Creatures - 25
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Skinshifter
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Dungrove Elder
3 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Viridian Zealot


Spells - 14
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Dismember
3 Beast Within
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Sideboard
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Lignify
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Vexing Shusher





MonoG Zenith Abuse by vojvoda_dop (with NO+Projenitus)

Lands - 21
9 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor


Creatures - 26
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Dungrove Elder
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Acidic Slime
1 Terravore
1 Progenitus
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Viridian Shaman

Spells - 13
3 Natural Order
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Dismember
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Sideboard
3 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Beast Within
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Vexing Shusher





MonoG Zenith Abuse by Freggle (Summoning trap version)

Lands - 21
11 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Savannah (Help to hard cast some creatures, but you can play with MonoG list)

Creatures - 38
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Thelonite Druid
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Dungrove Elder
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Rampaging Baloths
3 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells - 7
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoning Trap

Sideboard
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ravenous Trap
4 Mindbreak Trap


Please feel free to critique anything :smile:

[Greenpoe]

22 land with 4 GSZ and 4 Hierarch plus 2 Sylvan Library is too much I think, especially when you're virtually Waste-proof.

[novatinhu]

22 land with 4 GSZ and 4 Hierarch plus 2 Sylvan Library is too much I think, especially when you're virtually Waste-proof.

Yeah, probably i will down to 21~20 lands, for now in my tests i think 21 is the ideal.

Thank you for the comment.

[bganns]

Since you are using 4 Zenith i can see you runing trinespheres and/or chalices of the void's to make a disturbance in your opp fild, what you tink?

[Freggle]

Do not overlook Dungrove Elder

[novatinhu]

Do not overlook Dungrove Elder

The list was updated with this awesome card.

[kiblast]

Cold Eyed Selkie is still too cute to be playable?

[novatinhu]

Cold Eyed Selkie is still too cute to be playable?

Actualy I cut off the 1 Vexing Shusher from SB and add 1 Cold-eyed Selkie, because its a meal machine against FOLKS.

Another idea one player give me is to add Birthing Pod it can be the 5~8 GSZ, waht do you think?

[novatinhu]

Cold Eyed Selkie is still too cute to be playable?

Actualy I cut off the 1 Vexing Shusher from SB and add 1 Cold-eyed Selkie, because its a meal machine against FOLKS.

Another idea one player give me is to add Birthing Pod it can be the 5~8 GSZ, what do you think?

[kiblast]

Actualy I cut off the 1 Vexing Shusher from SB and add 1 Cold-eyed Selkie, because its a meal machine against FOLKS.

Another idea one player give me is to add Birthing Pod it can be the 5~8 GSZ, what do you think?

Pod could be good in legacy. There's deck in standard abusing GSZ+ Pod, you might want to check it here (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Gx(y)%20Fauna%20Shaman&format=Standard%20[Zen_M11_SoM]).

Probably you don't want more than 6-7 search effects in your deck, since you still want to be able to keep pressure if something wrong happens (like a Gaddock, or a Meddling Mage) and you don't want your deck to be creature-light and clogged up with tutor engines. I still think Pod is playable as GSZ 5-6, but sometimes 4-8 damages from Library are just plain better (and cheaper).

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Using Dismember in MonoG to make up for the lack of removal isn't a bad idea. I'm adopting it for my own Mono-G Zenith beatz, which currently looks like this:

8 Forest
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 River Boa
3 Great Sable Stag
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Eternal Witness
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Progenitus

4 Aether Vial
4 Dismember
3 Rancor
3 Natural Order
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library


SB

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Phyrexian Revoker


On the whole, it's pretty decent. There's nice synergy between GSZ, Dryad Arbor, Noble Hierarch, Aether Vial, and Rancor (that is to say, it's pretty easy to get both a fair bit of mana--two-mana openings are very common--and some fairly large beaters quite early on)--and Rancor is a real house on either River Boa, GSS, or Thrun. I've also been having some mana issues, but that could also be MWS' fault (I suspect that 2 lands is all that would be needed to fix that though). The balance between Top and Sylvan Library isn't great yet, and the deck does lack some versatility, but it does what it does very well, and I'd trust it to beat a fair few decks consistently. It's also worth noting that Vial and GSZ can power out Progenitus if they must (rare as that scenario is, at least none of those three cards is ever totally dead in your hand).

[novatinhu]

Nice list and comments guys.
I don't think more than 1 Dryad arbor is necessary and Aether vial too.
I like to see River Boa and Great Sable Stag I totally forget them but now they are in my mind.
About Bpod i will analyse its better here.

[Freggle]

The updte list looks like:

// Lands
10 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Skinshifter
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Dungrove Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Terravore

// Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Beast Within
3 Dismember
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
1 Loaming Shaman
2 Lignify
1 Viridian Zealot
3 Krosan Grip

With the rise of NO RUG I'm not sure what you will do to a resolved Progenitus.

Nor do you really slow nor stop their Natural Order. I'd try 3-4 Gaddock Teeg in the board that you could GSZ out.

Does it cut off your own Zenith? ...Yes. ...But does it give you a game against NO RUG. Yes.

[novatinhu]

With the rise of NO RUG I'm not sure what you will do to a resolved Progenitus.

Nor do you really slow nor stop their Natural Order. I'd try 3-4 Gaddock Teeg in the board that you could GSZ out.

Does it cut off your own Zenith? ...Yes. ...But does it give you a game against NO RUG. Yes.

Yes, this deck is the most hard to win. I won some games just going more agresive than the opponent.

BTW, 1 MD change:

-1 Terravore
+1 Acid Slime (Very usefull removing: SFM package, Maze of ith and things like Moat)

[vojvoda_dop]

This deck is sweet !!!! :D
I tested NO packet

9 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Dungrove Elder
1 Great Sable Stag
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Vexing Susher
1 Acidic Slime
1 Terravore
1 Progenitus
1 Woodfall Primus

3 Natural Order
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Dismember
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Beast Within
2 scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Vexing Susher

vs G/B Pox 2-0
vs Junk 2-0
vs G/W Aggro 2-0

[novatinhu]

This deck is sweet !!!! :D
I tested NO packet

vs G/B Pox 2-0
vs Junk 2-0
vs G/W Aggro 2-0


Very good to see goods results coming, i will test with the NO package too, and keep both on the first page because each player will have the chance to choose one way to go!

[Freggle]

Very good to see goods results coming, i will test with the NO package too, and keep both on the first page because each player will have the chance to choose one way to go!

With so much U controlling the Tier decks why not consider Summoning Trap main?

If one of your doodz gets countered then you just trap 'em. If you are not playing counter than you just pay the 2 more CMC over Natural Order and hard cast it.

That way your not sac-n' a dood. I know it's not a guaranteed Progenitus, but you'll get the best of 7 cards.

Maybe it should just be sideboard material.

[vojvoda_dop]

Some change's to NO list
main
-1 Great Sable Stag +1 Fauna Shaman (If you draw Progenitus and you can tutor for creature's if need'ed)
-1 Dismember +1 Viridian Shaman (Shaman because of Jitte,Swords,Baterskull,ect. )

[novatinhu]

With so much U controlling the Tier decks why not consider Summoning Trap main?

If one of your doodz gets countered then you just trap 'em. If you are not playing counter than you just pay the 2 more CMC over Natural Order and hard cast it.

That way your not sac-n' a dood. I know it's not a guaranteed Progenitus, but you'll get the best of 7 cards.

Maybe it should just be sideboard material.

That's a good idea too, the great problem i see when using NO+Pogy is:
- Progy in inicial hand;
- Progy in draw before cast NO;

With the trap we dont have this problem, probably i will test this card too.

Thank you.

[vojvoda_dop]

- Progy in inicial hand;
- Progy in draw before cast NO

-1 Great Sable Stag +1 Fauna Shaman :D

[Freggle]

That's a good idea too, the great problem i see when using NO+Pogy is:
- Progy in inicial hand;
- Progy in draw before cast NO;

Why the trap we dont have this problem, probably i will test this card too.

Thank you.

If I were to do this I'd forget Progenitus.

If you wanted to "go for gold" you should rock Elvish Piper & Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. This way you could trap Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (with Summoning trap) a much better creature in and / or you could Elvish Piper him in if you happen to draw him.

Edit: Plus you get "flash like" block tricks with piper

[novatinhu]

- Progy in inicial hand;
- Progy in draw before cast NO

-1 Great Sable Stag +1 Fauna Shaman :D

That's an idea!!!

[Freggle]

- Progy in inicial hand;
- Progy in draw before cast NO

-1 Great Sable Stag +1 Fauna Shaman :D

That's an idea!!!

I think you would be better off - 1 Fauna Shaman +1 Elvish Piper even if you were to stay with NO Progenitus

[novatinhu]

If I were to do this I'd forget Progenitus.

If you wanted to "go for gold" you should rock Elvish Piper & Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. This way you could trap Emrakul, the Aeons Torn a much better creature in and / or you could Elvish Piper him in if you happen to draw him.

Edit: Plus you get "flash like" block tricks with piper

Because of that "problems" i prefer to play without NO+Progy or Piper+Emrakul. I think the deck have more consistence only with the AGRO PLAN.
But play with some traps in the SB sounds good.

[Freggle]

Because of that "problems" i prefer to play without NO+Progy or Piper+Emrakul. I think the deck have more consistence only with the AGRO PLAN.
But play with some traps in the SB sounds good.
If people know your packing 4 Summoning Trap & 3-4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn in your board who is going to want to play control against you?

This is the plan I was daydreaming about with my own mono green enchantress build today.

i'm just sharing the untested wealth. :)

Modified SB:

1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Pithing Needle
1 Loaming Shaman
3 Krosan Grip
4 Summoning Trap
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

[novatinhu]

If people know your packing 4 Summoning Trap & 3-4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn in your board who is going to want to play control against you?

This is the plan I was daydreaming about with my own mono green enchantress build today.

i'm just sharing the untested wealth. :)

Modified SB:

1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Pithing Needle
1 Loaming Shaman
3 Krosan Grip
4 Summoning Trap
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


I like this SB, it have the same idea of the BG ooze combo who comes in the second game with the NO+Progy combo.
I will test it.

Thank you.

[Freggle]

I'm not sure why we are splashing black for Dismember.

It seems to me if you want to splash a color for removal you would go white for Swords to Plowshares and or Path to Exile

Dismember targets as does STP / PTE so I really don't see the benefit of black.

White you could also look at main decking Qasali Pridemage & Knight of the Reliquary for more bang.


I would also strongly recommend pulling the deck back to a true mono green. That way we don't open our selves up to Pithing Needle, Life from the Loam - Wasteland, Suppression Field, Aven Mindsensor, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon... you get the idea.

Just have the quality of our creatures require relegate your opponents to blockers.

I would also up the Dungrove Elder count and drop the Tarmogoyf count as it is a superior creature in this deck with it's hexproof, and our decks lust for forests.

[novatinhu]

I agree that bayou is not really necessary, i only use in my list because i have 2 here in collection and with them sometimes(very few) the life loss from dismember fall to only 2 life, but like I say its not really necessary it can be dropped out without any loss, the idea is bult a strong MONO GREEN. xD

About Dungrove Elder, i really like the card but i dont think more than 2 is necessary, but goyf easy is a 4/5 for 2 manas so I think (in my build) I will keep the 4.

What we need to do is build a core to the deck, I think until now is:

Lands
9-11 Forest
4-6 Verdant Catacombs / Windswept Heath
0-4 Wasteland
1-2 Dryad Arbor


Base Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
3-4 Tarmogoyf
2-3 Skinshifter
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
1-2 Scryb Ranger
2-3 Dungrove Elder

One-off Zenith targets
0-1 Thrun, the Last Troll (Merfolk, Counter)
0-1 Vexing Shusher (Merfolk, Counter)
0-1 Sylvan Safekeeper (Creatures protection)
0-1 Acidic Slime (Artifact/Enchant/Land hate)
0-1 Fauna Shaman (Creature searcher)
0-1 Viridian Shaman (Artifact hate)
0-1 Great Sable Stag (Merfolk, Counter)
0-1 Quirion Ranger (Tempo, Land protection)
0-1 Root Greevil (Enchantment)
0-1 Loaming Shaman (Grave hate)
0-1 Viridian Zealot (Artifact/Enchant hate)
0-1 Cold-Eyed Selkie (Merfolks, Bant, Blue Zoo, Team America)
0-1 Scavenging Ooze (Grave hate)


Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Beast Within
3 Dismember
0-2 Sylvan Library / Sensei's Divining Top
0-2 Umezawa's Jitte

[paeng4983]

this is interesting. i am also trying to incorporate GSZ into my deck.
but unlike novatinhu's build, im trying the berserk way. here's what i have:

6 G_fetches
1 drayd arbor
8 forest
2 wasteland

1 xantid swarm
2 skyshroud cutter
4 kavu predator
4 esg
1 thrun the last troll
1 scryb ranger
4 noble
2 wall of blossoms

4 berserk
4 invigorate
4 vines of vastwood

3 reverent silence

3 GSZ
2 Worldly tutor

2 sylvan library
2 umezawa's jitte

SB:
3 rushwood legate
3 seal of primordium
2 fog
3 vexing susher
1 gaea's blessing
3 MBTrap


worldly tutor is there to help GSZ find kavu or s.cutter fast.

about the SBs. its still a bit iffy, hehehe.. im still working on it :)

i've been playing this for testing over at cockatrice.
:)

[novatinhu]

Thread updated whit card tag and one simple banner i made this evenning.
Enjoy folks and lets build a core for the deck, Im waiting for ideas.

Cya

[Freggle]

Thread updated whit card tag and one simple banner i made this evenning.
Enjoy folks and lets build a core for the deck, Im waiting for ideas.

Cya

If I have more time tomorrow I will work on this. I think there should be Phyrexian Metamorph main.

It's a simple answer to both Progenitus & Emrakul, the Aeons Torn as it does not target, but generates the legend rule. whiping both your opponents original, and your copy off the board.

This gives rise to a singleton Fauna Shaman main so we can GSZ into it in the SnT / NO RUG match-ups to get the Metamorph in hand as well as hand fix our own Progenitus.

He's also not dead in other MU's either.

More to come later...

[novatinhu]

If I have more time tomorrow I will work on this. I think there should be Phyrexian Metamorph main.

It's a simple answer to both Progenitus & Emrakul, the Aeons Torn as it does not target, but generates the legend rule. whiping both your opponents original, and your copy off the board.

This gives rise to a singleton Fauna Shaman main so we can GSZ into it in the SnT / NO RUG match-ups to get the Metamorph in hand as well as hand fix our own Progenitus.

He's also not dead in other MU's either.

More to come later...

Agree I think Metamorph is our best answer to Emra and Progy, Im working to put 3 of them on the 75's.

[Freggle]

Agree I think Metamorph is our best answer to Emra and Progy, Im working to put 3 of them on the 75's.


...and since it can copy any creature OR artifact we can also copy annoying Batterskulls complete with the "come into play" germ token.

Also, it's a summon spell and will trigger Summoning Trap if countered. I personally have not left the idea of main deck traps yet. No one would expect it, and it not dead against counterless decks.

I love the idea of:

T1: Forest -> Noble Hierarch (your opponent misteps it) Summoning Trap into a fattie.

...I agree it may be just a wishful build, but I have seen a few successful list running Red Elemental Blast main.

[novatinhu]

...and since it can copy any creature OR artifact we can also copy annoying Batterskulls complete with the "come into play" germ token.

Also, it's a summon spell and will trigger Summoning Trap if countered. I personally have not left the idea of main deck traps yet. No one would expect it, and it not dead against counterless decks.

I love the idea of:

T1: Forest -> Noble Hierarch (your opponent misteps it) Summoning Trap into a fattie.

...I agree it may be just a wishful build, but I have seen a few successful list running Red Elemental Blast main.

Yeah Im buying the traps and metamorphs right now, probably i will test both, and plz Freggle give to us a list with these ideas!

Cya

[vojvoda_dop]

If we are splshing black for Dismember maybe we could put 2-3 engineered plauge to sb vs folks,elfs...
What do u guys thing about 1 Doran main ? You can fetch him with GSZ or hard cast if Noble Hierarch is on the board it's a sweet 5/5 on turn 3.

[novatinhu]

If we are splshing black for Dismember maybe we could put 2-3 engineered plauge to sb vs folks,elfs...
What do u guys thing about 1 Doran main ? You can fetch him with GSZ or hard cast if Noble Hierarch is on the board it's a sweet 5/5 on turn 3.

Like i said the idea is make a MonoG deck, i only put 2 Bayou on MD because i have them from my Junk deck, to be honesy its not really necessary and Im thinking in remove them because they are easy targets to wasteland.

Against Folks i think we are good having: Scryb Ranger, Thrun, the Last Troll, Lignify, Choke and Great Sable Stag.

I don't have the opportunity yet to try against Elves combo, but its a match up we need to analyse.

If anyone whant to make a little splash (with 4 Bayou or 4 Savannah) its can be helpful against Progenitus and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, vide: Tariff and Diabolic edict.
But to keep the deck MonoG the best idea the deal with that is:
+1 Fauna Shaman MD
+3 Phyrexian Metamorph SB or MD

[Freggle]

Again, I really haven't had the time to fully wrap my head around this one, but we have to ask our selves what this deck is.

Is it all out aggro? ...Aggro control?

To me once we added GSZ this is not pure aggro. This opens up the opportunity to build an very aggressive controly-ish type deck.

The Phyrexian Metamorph will help in a ton of MU's ...if the Scryb Ranger is to block Vendilion Clique then he metamorph can fill that gap with the same legendary rule tricks AND get to put their best card on the bottom of their library. I haven't tested the current list to any great extent, but that may be where to main deck these guys.

We should win long before a leveled Coralhelm ESPECIALLY if we are main decking Summoning Trap

As for Doran, the Siege Tower this deck needs a draw engine way more than in needs tricks. Green has plenty good beatz straight up. So what about a Edric, Spymaster of Trest then. He can be GSZ, or hard casted with Noble's.

I agree a true mono green with 4 Summoning Traps is the way to go. Until proven otherwise.

[novatinhu]

I agree with you, with almost every thing.
Greeen has a lot of underestimate power, because that I have the idea to build this deck, the recent cards and mechanics, like GSZ and Phyrexian mana, open to us a new range of doors.
This is the reason all the ideas are welcome and needed to be tested, to be honest we don't know the real power that this "new" archetypal can have.

Edric, Spymaster of Trest, Summoning Trap and Phyrexian Metamorph all they are awesome ideas to improve this deck.

[Freggle]

Here is my initial list I will be testing. I have limited the only non-creature spells to Green Sun's Zenith & Summoning Trap to maximize Summoning Trap effect.

Okay so on to the first draft list:

Lands
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Misty Rainforest
13 Forest (4)
4 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures
2 Skinshifter
2 Terravore
1 Thelonite Druid
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Fauna Shaman
2 Dungrove Elder
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Rampaging Baloths
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Acidic Slime
3 Solemn Simulacrum

Spells
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoning Trap

Sideboard
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Rhox War Monk
3 Ravenous Trap
4 Mindbreak Trap

Frankly, I am least excited about Tarmogoyf probably because I do not own any and they are so vanilla.

I chose the bomb creature to be Rampaging Baloths over Progenitus & Emrakul, the Aeons Torn because we should be able to hard cast it if need be. In addition it is extremely hard for green to generate Card Advantage (CA) in the traditional sense and Rampaging Baloths provides the path to Virtual Card Advantage all in one summon spell.

With Rampaging Baloths in play the simple act of dropping and cracking a fetch nets you 2 - 4/4 creatures AND he is just a beast all on his own.

This is why the deck is running fetches.

Then there are a lot of beaters that net you more land. This helps Dungrove Elder and a few others. Qasali Pridemage is too good not to run. The exaled mechanic is insane and his kill artifact or enchantment ability is quite good.

War Monk is in there for the burn match, or anywhere where life is relevant. If I thought the manabase could hard cast it easier (outside of two nobles) I would run more main. I'm thinking of putting Savannah in the board to make the board more diverse.

I'll leave it at that. If you have questions just ask.

[Freggle]

After a few matches it was apparent that being mono G and not G/W hindered the deck more than it helped.

So I tweaked to the list below.

Notes: Summoning Trap main is as awesome as I thought it would be. One MWS match I got to live the dream vs. NO RUG. Got my Noble Hierarch Mental Missteped, and Summoning traped into the mighty Rampaging Baloths!

It didn't stop there. T2 I dropped and cracked a fetch for 2 4/4's and swung in for 6. got the "Player Lost" message. Silly, Just silly.

Vs. Zoo this list quicky out meats them. I found myself hard casting Rampaging Baloths and Summoning Traps after I chump blocked with a Veteran Explorer

Knights grabbing fetches and crackin' em with a Bloath on the board is UTTERLY DISGUSTING!

There is tons of fun Synergy here! I'm into it.


Lands
11 Forest (4)
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Savannah

// Creatures
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Thelonite Druid
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Dungrove Elder
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Rampaging Baloths
3 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoning Trap

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 2 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap

[Freggle]

Just had another match against Caw Blade. T1 Veteran Explorer ...long pause. Response Brainstorm ->Daze

I responded with a Summoning Trap resp. Force of Will removing Daze. My resp. a SECOND Summoning Trap resolves and I grab the best creature Thrun, the Last Troll ...won the game.

[novatinhu]

Just had another match against Caw Blade. T1 Veteran Explorer ...long pause. Response Brainstorm ->Daze

I responded with a Summoning Trap resp. Force of Will removing Daze. My resp. a SECOND Summoning Trap resolves and I grab the best creature Thrun, the Last Troll ...won the game.

Nice reports, Im happy to see that this deck have some interesting versions and are winning in the tests, i will update the first page with your list.

Thank you Freggle

[honz]

I feel like this deck could be tweaked to really abuse winter orb without too much work. A few scryb rangers + quirion ranger in combination with KotR and heirarchs with zenith to grab the missing pieces. Throw some wastes, rishadan ports, and maybe a tabernacle of pendrall vale in there as targets for KotR, and possibly windborn muse for shaman.

You wouldn't even need to go that far. 1-2 fauna shaman (which should be considered regardless), some quirion rangers/scryb rangers and you could easily benefit from winter orb in the board against control/combo.

Zenith + fauna shaman + KotR would allow you to pretty much play like a survival of the fittest deck.

[Freggle]

honz it certainly could, but i'm in the mood for an all out aggro deck as if late.

Check out out this new tribal list BEASTS!


// Lands
14 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Rampaging Baloths
3 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Karstoderm
3 Wirewood Savage
3 Skyshroud War Beast
3 Blastoderm
1 Gurzigost

// Spells
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoning Trap
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter


It's super cheap and lots of fun. The beasts multiply like wet gremlins really REALLY quickly.

Green lacks good draw so Wirewood Savage it just plain nice to see.

The VCA of Garruk, Primal Hunter and Rampaging Baloths is also quite nice & they are beasts.

You will be drawing like a fool enchantress style in no time. Dropping fetches and crackn' em nets you 2 4/4 beasts with a Rampaging Baloths on the board ...and 2 cards with a Wirewood Savage.

No one want to come at you through the red zone when you drop a Veteran Explorer once your board is developed. That's only more lands and more beasts.

I will likely split this off to it's own thread. Give it a whirl.

[Freggle]

Here is where I am at with my list:

// Lands
18 [TSP] Forest (4)
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
2 [M12] Dungrove Elder
3 [ZEN] Rampaging Baloths
3 [NE] Blastoderm
2 [DDD] Ravenous Baloth
4 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
4 [BD] Llanowar Elves
4 [WWK] Leatherback Baloth
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise

// Spells
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [ZEN] Summoning Trap
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker

I have found in testing it's better to go all in on controlling the board with fattie creatures than it is to go in search of some elusive green CA engine.

Rampaging Baloth are still kicking it. It's a good card being a 6/6 for (CMC) 6, but becomes super good when you start poping 4/4's off of landfalls.

Garruk Wildspeaker is testing better than Primal Hunter in this deck because he helps with the mana ramp so well

Summoning Trap Yep, still awesome. Hard casted OR free.

I lost the fetches to give the deck more game against blue stifle, and moon decks only the landfall of Baloth sufferers, but it makes for a better deck.

Scryb Ranger brought these guys in to help the ramp and/or enable Baloths.

So yeah that's where it is at... Testing pretty okay.

[novatinhu]

Actually Im waiting for some new cards i bought to arrive and make more tests, but in MWS im not having much problems with T1 decks, the most hard are: TES and Hive mind.

Any idea guys?

[soiber2000]

I'm also a big fan of Green based decks and hope one day Mono Green will become a tier 1 deck, but to be honest it is quite dificult, near imposible.

By the way, I've been intensively playtesting monoGreen decks, based on the last list Freggle posted but making some changes that I think it makes more competitive. First, there is no need for running so many beasts (aside from the sacking hability of Ravenous Baloth). Second, Natural Order is the best green tutor, perhaps tied with GSZ, and the possibility to put a Progenitus against non-blue decks is so hugh that I think it deserves the package, although sometimes Progenitus will be a dead draw. It is a risk, but also with Summoning trap (maindeck or sideboard, I am still doubting), it is another "ups I win" card.

Here is the list that I am testing right now.


//Lands 20
9 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures 26
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds Of Paradise
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Mul Daya Channelers
2 Yavimaya Elder
1 Dungrove Elder
2 Thrun, The Last Troll
2 Wickerbough Elder
1 Acidic Slime
3 Rampaging Baloths
1 Progenitus

//Spells 14
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoning Trap
3 Natural Order
3 Garruk Wildspeaker



First I put Sword of Body and Mind to make creatures unblockable, but now I am not sure if it is necessary. Second, for the deck playing style, Acidic slime is not enough to fight equipment because you want the answer before the "deal damage to player" triggers. That's way I think Wickerbough Elder must be maindecked. Mul Daya Channelers and Yavimaya Elder helps with the mana requirements, and the first is also a good beater and the second is a great chumblocker and a source of CA. Sideboard must have answers to combo, artifact, perinicious deed/perish, and some more grave hate.

The deck is super fun to play, and can have some good matches against the most common Tier1 decks, but as I said, I don't know if it deserves more brainstorming to make it trully competitive or leave it as a pet toy.

Cheers,

Soiber2000

[Freggle]

I'm also a big fan of Green based decks and hope one day Mono Green will become a tier 1 deck, but to be honest it is quite dificult, near imposible.

By the way, I've been intensively playtesting monoGreen decks, based on the last list Freggle posted but making some changes that I think it makes more competitive. First, there is no need for running so many beasts (aside from the sacking hability of Ravenous Baloth). Second, Natural Order is the best green tutor, perhaps tied with GSZ, and the possibility to put a Progenitus against non-blue decks is so hugh that I think it deserves the package, although sometimes Progenitus will be a dead draw. It is a risk, but also with Summoning trap (maindeck or sideboard, I am still doubting), it is another "ups I win" card.

Here is the list that I am testing right now.


//Lands 20
9 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures 26
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds Of Paradise
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Mul Daya Channelers
2 Yavimaya Elder
1 Dungrove Elder
2 Thrun, The Last Troll
2 Wickerbough Elder
1 Acidic Slime
3 Rampaging Baloths
1 Progenitus

//Spells 14
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoning Trap
3 Natural Order
3 Garruk Wildspeaker



First I put Sword of Body and Mind to make creatures unblockable, but now I am not sure if it is necessary. Second, for the deck playing style, Acidic slime is not enough to fight equipment because you want the answer before the "deal damage to player" triggers. That's way I think Wickerbough Elder must be maindecked. Mul Daya Channelers and Yavimaya Elder helps with the mana requirements, and the first is also a good beater and the second is a great chumblocker and a source of CA. Sideboard must have answers to combo, artifact, perinicious deed/perish, and some more grave hate.

The deck is super fun to play, and can have some good matches against the most common Tier1 decks, but as I said, I don't know if it deserves more brainstorming to make it trully competitive or leave it as a pet toy.

Cheers,

Soiber2000

argh. just lost a super long post going into things point by point. ...so now i'll go shorthand.

Ask yourself is NO Prog. a win more often, or a win more grand. ...it is likely a win more often, but test it to make sure.

Do not forget Summoning Trap is an instant hard casted or not. Summoning Trap is a card on one sees coming whether you respond to a counter OR you produce a fattie blocker out of no where. It swings games and opponents fear it.

For the same reason Chord of Calling should not be overlooked.

As for your list why so greedy on the mana base? ...to produce more land falls ...or chump blocks with Dryad Arbor?

For me in my zoo-ish build (board control through card quality) the life loss of fetches is what tipped it to no fetch for me.

Could I have blow out games where I was pumping out the 4/4's yes, but I also has grinding games I lost to a few measly self inflicted damage. I take the more wins, not the win mores.

also Thrun is legendary why two?

I have found Scryb to be better than quirion because of the flash flying and pro blue (Vendilion Clique killer) I flash her in under a number of different scenarios.

1 EOT to avoid removal and an extra point of damage on the attack. 2 to surprise untap a fattie for some mega blocking action. 3 surprise block a bob, or a clique)

[soiber2000]

argh. just lost a super long post going into things point by point. ...so now i'll go shorthand.

Ask yourself is NO Prog. a win more often, or a win more grand. ...it is likely a win more often, but test it to make sure.

Do not forget Summoning Trap is an instant hard casted or not. Summoning Trap is a card on one sees coming whether you respond to a counter OR you produce a fattie blocker out of no where. It swings games and opponents fear it.

For the same reason Chord of Calling should not be overlooked.

As for your list why so greedy on the mana base? ...to produce more land falls ...or chump blocks with Dryad Arbor?

For me in my zoo-ish build (board control through card quality) the life loss of fetches is what tipped it to no fetch for me.

Could I have blow out games where I was pumping out the 4/4's yes, but I also has grinding games I lost to a few measly self inflicted damage. I take the more wins, not the win mores.

also Thrun is legendary why two?

I have found Scryb to be better than quirion because of the flash flying and pro blue (Vendilion Clique killer) I flash her in under a number of different scenarios.

1 EOT to avoid removal and an extra point of damage on the attack. 2 to surprise untap a fattie for some mega blocking action. 3 surprise block a bob, or a clique)

What a shame not to read your extended post. By the way, I have to agree with you in some things and in others I will try to explain my choices.

NO Prog: yes, it deserves more testing. It is true that some times is win more, but in my testing I've found it quite valuable to have acces to the combo. Also it is no strange to cast natural order for Wickerbough elder or baloths, and for that issue is good to have 2 dryads, in addition of other reasons that also I will try to explain.

I don't forget Summoning trap as an instant answer even hardcasted. It's a great card that pushes you to a better board position, sometimes in the path to win. And I found Nul Daya Channelers to be the best trap enabler for the 6 mana. Channelers are a great card for this deck. You can find yourself beating for 5-6 turn 3 with him (noble or not), or 4-5 mana turn 3, depending on the top. It is a great card to have with rangers, netting you 4 mana out of nowhere, or attacking and defending for 5. And because it depends on the top card, I have 7 fetches to shuffle if necessary.

7 fetches are great for 1-Daya channelers, 2-baloths, and 3-and most important, for fetching dryad arbor. I fetch dryad arbor in every game, not the first fetch but the second. I never had issues with the life lost, and against aggro decks your should be more aggro (expcept for Zoo). Dryad arbor is great for rangers shenningans, giving you acces to 4 mana even if you are manascrewed with forest+fetch. A simple ranger and fetching for dryad arbor smoothes your plays. Another good thing for dryad arbor is natural order. I'd rather lose a land that a creature for it. Also, in an extremely rare case you can GSZ for it to trigger baloth in play. I am very comfortable with that mana base, 9 basics are great, and 2 cradles for turn 2 and 3 wins is more important that the cases it sucks.

Thrun is a must. As you said:
I responded with a Summoning Trap resp. Force of Will removing Daze. My resp. a SECOND Summoning Trap resolves and I grab the best creature Thrun, the Last Troll ...won the game.
Why have 1 when you can support 2 perfectly? Initially I wanted a CMC 5 creature in his second slot, but there is nothing better than Thrun. It wrecks half the meta, and 2 I think is correct. Blade Control plays 3 Vendilions and nobody complains about it as a legendary creature.

As a GW zenith player, I always says that 2 Scryb Ranger is the correct number. For that reason, and for diversifying GSZ targets, I put quirion. But I have to admit that the benefits of being instant speed+flying+pro-blue is a hugh diference. I will probably change it for the third Scryb. Other debatable slots are Rofellos and Yavimaya elder, but at the moment they are working great with the deck sinergy.

Maybe the rest of the deck is designed having in mind my meta, (lots of stoneforge, lots of landstill, blade control, bants...) so that is the reason for 2 Wickerbough maindecked. But I found it an excelent creature at CMC 4, you can zenith for it faster than Acidic (but I have 1 main too) and can answer a great variety of threads.

PD: Fun things I've done 1-Zenith for 11 (with open mana for daze) XD. 2-First turn noble, second turn Nul Daya, third turn swing for 6 and play Another Nul Daya, fourth turn tap both for 4 mana (forest on top), play garruk, untap lands, play thrun....

Soiber2000

[Maveric78f]

I'm not too much into this kind of decks but I'm very surprised you prefer Garruk#1 over Garruk, Primal Hunter.

Also are you sure that Progenitus is better than Terastodon as the main target for NO. At least Terastodon is castable and it looks as deadly.

[catmint]

Is there a specific reaso why you dont ru tarmogoyf?

[Koby]

Is there a specific reaso why you dont ru tarmogoyf?

How does Tarmogoyf get large in this deck? There are no Sorceries that remain in the g/y, nor much variety aside from Creatures. At best (and no effort by the opponent) Goyf would be a 3/4. I think the deck can do better for a 2-drop than that. (Like Ooze)

[Maveric78f]

Is there a specific reaso why you dont ru tarmogoyf?

Because the deck does not need vanilla creatures I guess.

Ideas you people might want to try:
Bellowing Tanglewurm
Molder Slug
Cloudthresher
Deus of Calamity
Spectral Force
Vigor

[soiber2000]

@Maveric78f: The first idea was to use Garruk #2, but sometimes you can't have access to the 5th mana when you need it, CMC 4 is much easier and you can use his +1 hability to ramp to 6. But is it true that I haven't testet #2 with the inclusion of Nul Daya and Yavimaya Elder, and maybe now I can support it. Terastodon is an excelent card that I want to test, but I'm still doubting it is as deadly as Progenitus, due to creature killers. But I will test it, as it can be a great target in some situations.

@catmint: well, Maveric78f and Rukcus have answered your question. Tarmogoyf is a small creature with no habilites in this deck. Yes, you can rely on your opponent's graveyard, but it is still a CMC 2 vanilla. For the same cost we have Scryb Ranger and Scavenging Ooze, which are better for this deck. And the second one eats tarmos and reliquarys quite easily while he grows.

@Maveric78f - 2: They are valid options. Last Friday I told my team that I will test Molder Slug main because it houses Batterskulls and equipment in general. The others I think are worse than Rampaging Baloths, but they could need testing to conclude.

[Freggle]

Firstly, the goyf question was answered correctly.



NO Prog: yes, it deserves more testing. It is true that some times is win more, but in my testing I've found it quite valuable to have acces to the combo. Also it is no strange to cast natural order for Wickerbough elder or baloths, and for that issue is good to have 2 dryads, in addition of other reasons that also I will try to explain.

Yes but keep in mind it could be NO -> anything. Prog is the best empirical target but it poses some inefficiencies with our build. Terastodon MAY be better.


PS - Scryb Ranger is also good tech against Jace. He can't be bounced, and often can't be blocked.
Same goes for coralhelm in folks.

Also what happened to the Phyrexian Metamorphs? I was finding them to be good tech in my meta. (NO Prog n' such [Legend rule]) It also lets you copy the annoying equipment that you seem to be seeing a lot of.

Edit: Vigor could be amazing! AND could give us a MD pain point to Panter-Grindstone decks less a Proggy.

Edit 2:Summoning Trap or Chord of Calling into a Vigor in the declare blockers step could be absolutely mind-blowingly amazing.

[novatinhu]

Firstly, the goyf question was answered correctly.


Yes but keep in mind it could be NO -> anything. Prog is the best empirical target but it poses some inefficiencies with our build. Terastodon MAY be better.


PS - Scryb Ranger is also good tech against Jace. He can't be bounced, and often can't be blocked.
Same goes for coralhelm in folks.

Also what happened to the Phyrexian Metamorphs? I was finding them to be good tech in my meta. (NO Prog n' such [Legend rule]) It also lets you copy the annoying equipment that you seem to be seeing a lot of.

Edit: Vigor could be amazing! AND could give us a MD pain point to Panter-Grindstone decks less a Proggy.

Edit 2:Summoning Trap or Chord of Calling into a Vigor in the declare blockers step could be absolutely mind-blowingly amazing.

Hello again guys, after a lot of play test we all have the same opinion i think:

-Goyf: can be easily removed from the deck;
-NO -> Progy: We don't have sufficient ideas about that for now;
-Scryb Ranger: IS AWESOME!!!

And about Phyrexian Metamorph I never drop it from my list, It's our best answer against Progy, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Batterskull

[Freggle]

Below is a list I will likely take to a tourney on Sat.

It's based off of what I own or can afford. It has been testing very well tonight.

// Lands
11 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
2 Dungrove Elder
3 Rampaging Baloths
4 Scryb Ranger
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Terastodon
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Yavimaya Elder
3 Vigor
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
3 Mul Daya Channelers
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

// Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoning Trap
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Phyrexian Metamorph



I do not think this deck should run Natural Order at this time. We have 8 functional tutors as is.

I have tested Progenitus and do not think it belongs. The proggy on the draw is lame, and not worth weakening the other card slots to correct.

I have found that STP /PTE's are long burned before you land your biggest bomb so the huge bombs stick. Proggys unblockability would be nice but Vigors ability can be functionally the same with trample dudes.

I wonder if Regal Force is a waste of our time?

Edit: It should be noted that I was a disbeliever on Mul Daya Channelers until tested. Those gals are amazing. Nice find!

[Freggle]

I made a few minor changes tonight.

-2 Yavimaya Elder
-1 Terastodon

+2 Boggart Ram-Gang
+1 Primalcruxi

[soiber2000]

Now I'm testing without Natural Order too. I don't think Regal Force deserves a slot, but Vigor is testing fine, is specially good against creature-based decks such as gobs and merfolks. [Phyrexian metamorph has to be somewhere in the deck, maindeck or board.

Your last list looks really good. Terastodon has been good and bad, sometimes is GG and sometimes you can hardcast it or has a poor impact on what you want to do. Also, I think Primalcrux is win more. It is just a great beater, that's it, if I'd need another fatty I'd choose one more baloth or Vigor, but this is without testing it. And finally I agree that Yavimaya Elder can be changed wiht something else, but is Boggart Ram-Gang the best option? Only hits for 3.

[Freggle]

Now I'm testing without Natural Order too. I don't think Regal Force deserves a slot, but Vigor is testing fine, is specially good against creature-based decks such as gobs and merfolks. [Phyrexian metamorph has to be somewhere in the deck, maindeck or board.

Your last list looks really good. Terastodon has been good and bad, sometimes is GG and sometimes you can hardcast it or has a poor impact on what you want to do. Also, I think Primalcrux is win more. It is just a great beater, that's it, if I'd need another fatty I'd choose one more baloth or Vigor, but this is without testing it. And finally I agree that Yavimaya Elder can be changed wiht something else, but is Boggart Ram-Gang the best option? Only hits for 3.

On Primalcrux I'll be honest. I wasn't liking Terastodon as much as I was hoping to like you talk about, and I went on a search for something different & big.

Primal looked cool, and so I stuck it in. It hasn't really effected the deck either way dramatically. It is not a dead weight though either. I disagree the slot should be used for more Baloths or Vigor's as we should have a different GSZ target to break open some games.

I did find that it's trample ability and it HUMONGOUS size when dropped (10/10 - 16/16 ish) certainly helps race an unabated NO RUG deck G1.



On Boggart Ram-Gang I wanted something at the 3 CMC slot. The best P/T offered there is Leatherback Baloth which I used to run, but they are so vanilla. I chose Boggart Ram-Gang because of its abilities. ...especially haste. So turn 2 you could be swinging in for 3 (just like Zoo with Nacatyls). The Wither was just icing. Even if he dies he leaves a favourable mark on the board in my advantage. If he eats a counter / removal heck even better.

[novatinhu]

Hello guys, my update list looks like:


// Lands
11 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Dungrove Elder
3 Skinshifter
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Acidic Slime

// Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Dismember
3 Beast Within
2 Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
SB: 2 Lignify
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap

[Freggle]

Here is where I am at:

// Lands
11 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
1 Dungrove Elder
3 Rampaging Baloths
4 Scryb Ranger
3 Llanowar Elves (Should be Noble Hierarch)
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Primalcrux
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Boggart Ram-Gang
3 Vigor
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
3 Mul Daya Channelers
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Nullmage Shepherd

// Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoning Trap
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 3 Beast Within

The above list has been testing very well. Frankly, better than I thought it would. It's tough MU's are anything discard (but they are win-able) & NO RUG (Sometimes you just can not race a Progenitus, and G2 & 3 the metamorph Legend rule is spotty but works I'd say G2 & G3 are even leaving the match ever-so-slightly unfavorable), & Dredge but I know that is because my SB is not developed.

Given the high curve of the deck there has been some games where I had a clunky start with too many cards in hand are too high to cast. However I would say many of those are still not lost. The power of the 6 CMC cards offset their hindererence, and swing games back.

Now this morning I had a hair-brained Idea. What if instead of dropping a Boggart Ram-Gang t2 we aimed to drop an Aven Mindcensor.

...I know, I know it's not green, and not GSZ-able... However, you can hard cast it with Birds of Paradise or Noble Hierarch (or later than t2 with Mul Daya Channelers if you got the land)...or you could Summoning Trap it into play (although I'll admit it is likely not the best target.) ...you could hard cast trap in response to a Natural Order and drop an aven if he's in your top 7.

Why would we want to go through this trouble? ...well our (slightly) bad MU NO RUG searches their library ALL THE TIME (fetches, GSZ, NO, etc.) if landed it hurts them quite bad. If answered with a counter it COULD trigger a Summoning Trap into a game winner. If he does drop than they will have to find a bolt & red mana in their top 4 cards to free their game plan up again.

Beyond aven's search ability it's flying, so we have a reliable threatening way out of the red zone. Especially if I throw down on the Noble's I know I need to power him out.

In the end I think he's an excellent disruptive aggro creature that deserves a test.

I will be testing the following list tonight:

// Lands
11 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
1 Dungrove Elder
3 Rampaging Baloths
4 Scryb Ranger
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Aven Mindcensor (or 4 Aven less a Dungrove)
3 Vigor
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
3 Mul Daya Channelers
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Nullmage Shepherd

// Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoning Trap
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 3 Beast Within

Maybe I'm too sensitive to this since there are so many NO RUG's in the meta I'm travelling through as of late.

[Greenpoe]

Freggle, I'd suggest -1 Primalcrux for Deus of Calamity, simply because of the CMC at 5 for GSZ. Deus works well for that role when you can't GSZ for 6 because if unblocked, you get CA. At worst, he's a 6/6 for 5 with trample, which is still strong.

[Freggle]

Freggle, I'd suggest -1 Primalcrux for Deus of Calamity, simply because of the CMC at 5 for GSZ. Deus works well for that role when you can't GSZ for 6 because if unblocked, you get CA. At worst, he's a 6/6 for 5 with trample, which is still strong.

Hey Greenpoe! Thanks man.

As it stands right now I'm looking the change the purpose of that slot up a little. The epiphany of Aven Mindcensor I had this morning shifted the deck ever so slightly.

I have tested Aven in the slots listed above at a local store, and have been VERY happy with it. At one point I was able to live the dream and power flash him out in response to my opponents turn 2 fetch crack. He searched his top 4 and came up empty. He later told me that stopped a turn 2 Hymn to Tourach. In another match he kept the clock going to victory flying over my opponents developed board and putting the last few pieces of damage in after I was nearly wiped clean after a Perish.

The fact that he has flash I was also able to use duplicates to get some pretty money blocks. I like the performance, and I have always wanted to play with him so I'll be rocking him tomorrow.

I did however (to improve consistency) re-add a singleton Savannah to all but ensure that if I have him in my hand he will be hitting the table hopefully T2 but maybe T3.

This did raise a new problem however... Since I'm running fetch, and I can constantly get a single white mana why in earth am I not running Knight of the Reliquary? He GSZ'z at 4 and drops for 3. He's a beast on the board, and he enables the ever living hell out of Rampaging Baloths. This bothers me. I'm weird I don't want this to look like every other run-of-the-mill GSZ deck, but sometime you just have to give in to good cards. ...so if they have them relatively cheap at the store tomorrow I'll pick up 1 or 2 and run them in a few of the Vigor slots.

Well see...

Less the possible Reliquary switch below is the list I will likely be rocking at the tournament tomorrow (unless I get swayed otherwise by morning):


// Lands
10 [TSP] Forest
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [R] Savannah

// Creatures
3 [ZEN] Rampaging Baloths
4 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
3 [BD] Llanowar Elves
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise
1 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [LRW] Vigor
1 [UD] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
3 [ROE] Mul Daya Channelers
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [RAV] Nullmage Shepherd
1 [M12] Dungrove Elder
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [ZEN] Summoning Trap
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [NPH] Beast Within
SB: 1 [RAV] Nullmage Shepherd
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod

PS - I don't own the ooze, and I'd rather have the reliquary.

[Freggle]

Freggle, I'd suggest -1 Primalcrux for Deus of Calamity, simply because of the CMC at 5 for GSZ. Deus works well for that role when you can't GSZ for 6 because if unblocked, you get CA. At worst, he's a 6/6 for 5 with trample, which is still strong.

Hey Greenpoe! Thanks man.

As it stands right now I'm looking the change the purpose of that slot up a little. The epiphany of Aven Mindcensor I had this morning shifted the deck ever so slightly.

I have tested Aven in the slots listed above at a local store, and have been VERY happy with it. At one point I was able to live the dream and power flash him out in response to my opponents turn 2 fetch crack. He searched his top 4 and came up empty. He later told me that stopped a turn 2 Hymn to Tourach. In another match he kept the clock going to victory flying over my opponents developed board and putting the last few pieces of damage in after I was nearly wiped clean after a Perish.

The fact that he has flash I was also able to use duplicates to get some pretty money blocks. I like the performance, and I have always wanted to play with him so I'll be rocking him tomorrow.

I did however (to improve consistency) re-add a singleton Savannah to all but ensure that if I have him in my hand he will be hitting the table hopefully T2 but maybe T3.

This did raise a new problem however... Since I'm running fetch, and I can constantly get a single white mana why in earth am I not running Knight of the Reliquary? She GSZ'z at 4 and drops for 3. She's a beast on the board, and she enables the ever living hell out of Rampaging Baloths. This bothers me. I'm weird I don't want this to look like every other run-of-the-mill GSZ deck, but sometime you just have to give in to good cards. ...so if they have them relatively cheap at the store tomorrow I'll pick up 1 or 2 and run them in a few of the Vigor slots.

Well see...

Less the possible Reliquary switch below is the list I will likely be rocking at the tournament tomorrow (unless I get swayed otherwise by morning):


// Lands
10 [TSP] Forest
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [R] Savannah

// Creatures
3 [ZEN] Rampaging Baloths
4 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
3 [BD] Llanowar Elves
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise
1 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [LRW] Vigor
1 [UD] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
3 [ROE] Mul Daya Channelers
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [RAV] Nullmage Shepherd
1 [M12] Dungrove Elder
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [ZEN] Summoning Trap
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [NPH] Beast Within
SB: 1 [RAV] Nullmage Shepherd
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod

PS - I don't own the ooze, and I'd rather have the reliquary.

[Greenpoe]

Hey Freggle, I started reading through this thread and think this deck is very cool, but I've got very limited time to test right now.
How would you feel about cutting Dungrove Elder altogether? I dislike how slow he is to get big, and he doesn't even have trample. Also, Perish seems like a major issue for this deck, which is why I would've thought that Garruk, Primal Hunter as a 1-of or 2-of might be good in one of the 6-drop slots (plus he's only 5 mana). Do you think NO Pro (or NO-Don?) in the SB would help out the MU's enough?

[Freggle]

Hey Freggle, I started reading through this thread and think this deck is very cool, but I've got very limited time to test right now.
How would you feel about cutting Dungrove Elder altogether? I dislike how slow he is to get big, and he doesn't even have trample. Also, Perish seems like a major issue for this deck, which is why I would've thought that Garruk, Primal Hunter as a 1-of or 2-of might be good in one of the 6-drop slots (plus he's only 5 mana). Do you think NO Pro (or NO-Don?) in the SB would help out the MU's enough?GSZ

Yeah Perish is a problem with any GSZ deck including NO RUG. The thing is we can usually out race it.

Many SB only run 2-3 copies, and rarely tutor for it so it's really not an issue. Every deck has something that owns it.

As for Garruk, Primal Hunter he's good. Actually not he's great... in a typical aggro deck.

The thing is this deck has a high curve, and Garruk 1 works better in it.

Typical openers go like this:

First 7: Do you have Summoning Trap? Yes -> Cast Mana dork | No? -> GSZ -> Arbor Dryad.

T2: land -> Mul Daya Channelers, (opponents turn) Scryb Ranger, or (opponents turn) Aven Mindcensor.

T3 Garruk or whatever. swing with the family 1-7 damage

Depending on what type of fight your opponent puts up and your draw luck next turn you plow out T4 your dropping finishers. T5 you can use Garruk's +3/+3 trample FTW a lot.

As for a NO board yes it could possibly help, but I don't own them yet but we'll see what happens if I land this trade I'm working on. ...but remember that is 12 "tutors"!

[Freggle]

Major let down today. After driving 1 hour to the store that runs a weekly Legacy tournament I found that there wasn't enough people to play. They had a game day event and most Legacy players were in that.

Other notes when playing with the Knights in playtest matches they are a very welcomed addition. With Scryb Ranger enableing the Knights grabbing fetches and crackin 'em & Scryb and Knight enabeling Rampaging Baloths It gets out of hand extreamly fast.

If you knight -> fetch -> forest (return a forest) untap knight -> drop a forest Knight -> fetch -> forest. With a Baloth in play uou get 1 fat Knight that can be untapped via Scryb onyour opponents turn AND 5 count them 5. 4/4 creatures.

Silly.

Also last note. I added 1 Sylvan Safekeeper to the Sb inplace of shepherd. Mainly cause I wanted a ligitimate reason to call this deck TrapperKeeper.

There is another tourney Wed. I'm shooting for.

[hyperchord24]

Wouldn't adding white then beg the question of adding at least swords to plowshares? Or is that not in the spirit of the deck. I haven't sleeved it up quite yet.

[Freggle]

Wouldn't adding white then beg the question of adding at least swords to plowshares? Or is that not in the spirit of the deck. I haven't sleeved it up quite yet.

It's questionable. ...and I would say not in the spirit of the deck.

The deck begs your opponent to stop you or else. ...If they choose to counter they better hope they are packing heat for the trap or hope I don't have one.

Most of the time you can create favorable blocks to rid thw board of pesky creatures. Lackey? Fetch and Dryad Arbor post attack phase. ...same goes for Bob.

Also since Scryb and Aven have flash people will swing into air and will meet their maker. Especially with the Scryb untap post flash.

Beyond that Summoning Trap[cards] is an instant and produce a fattie out of thin air hard casted. To block stuff.

You also want to keep the summon spells to a maximum so that Trap os most effective.

It may eventually have a spot in the board for pro green things but for most eveything else green Vindicate [cards]Beast Within has been handleing that role quite well.

[Bruticus]

Summoning Trap + Garruk's Horde + Mul Daya Channelers looks like it could be extremely powerful.

[Freggle]

Summoning Trap + Garruk's Horde + Mul Daya Channelers looks like it could be extremely powerful.

I'm liking it. I will be upping the Mul Daya Channelers to 4 regardless.

I'm finding that with the inclusion of Knight of the Reliquary's shuffle effect grabbing more shuffle effects Misty Rainforest / Verdant Catacombs you able to find something good before the draw.

It's on par or better than fetch / top.

Vigor is on his way out as it's not that awesome all on it's own. I've been testing Primeval Titan in at least one of the slots (for more landfalls) & mana ramp, and have been liking it.

Speaking of ramp I also like how Knight of the Reliquary can ramp for 1 or more with Scryb Ranger you can tap and sac for an untapped land.

I'm taking a break for the deck today, but will start working on it again tomorrow I'm sure.

[Freggle]

Okay, I couldn't stay away from the deck for a whole day (it's in the blood right now.)

So this deck is getting very, very interesting and starting to show it's identity to me. The best way I can describe it in a term would be aggro combo. As in you play good aggro creatures that happen to combo into tons of 4/4 vanilla beasts.

In realizing this is what it is, and taking some time away I was able to looks at some things more critically.
Specifically, Garruk Wildspeaker. The deck is built with a high density of creatures for 2 reasons. (1) to maximize the inclusion of and the effects of Summoning Trap & (2) To maximize the brokenness of Mul Daya Channelers.

In looking at these goals Garruk Wildspeaker was a bit of a weight as he is not a creature (or a land). He was added for his ramp, but with the inclusion of Knight of the Reliquary this decks opening mana requirements are lessened. Knight is cheap for this deck at CMC 3, and he has the opportunity to ramp himself as he grows.

So it's sad to say it was time to pull him out. This gave us 3 more slots to work with this is where my list is at today:

// Lands
10 [TSP] Forest (4)
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [R] Savannah

// Creatures
3 [ZEN] Rampaging Baloths
4 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
3 [BD] Llanowar Elves
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise
1 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ROE] Mul Daya Channelers
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
2 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [RAV] Nullmage Shepherd
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [ZEN] Summoning Trap
1 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 3 [NPH] Beast Within
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [JU] Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod


I've played some MWS matches with it, and again to my surprise it is quite good. I do not believe it is optimal yet, but I certainly think something is here.

[Freggle]

So after playing this list quite a bit tonight I judge the match-ups as follows:

Zoo: Very Favorable. Once you land a Knight, or Channler ...basically something bigger than their guys. The Match gets much tougher for them. They have to find their PTE before you start to go broken which does not take long.

Seeing Teeg Sucks, but he's not a game breaker.

SB: -1 shepherd +1 Elvish Safekeeper

No RUG: Even to favorable: Since we can come out hitting hard it put them on a short clock. This MU is where Summoning Trap shines. There have been a few games where a dazed mana dork traps into a game finisher. There have even been games where I double trap off of the initial 1st turn play. One was especially crazy where I double trapped into Baloths -> Primeval netting 2 more 4/4's.

Aven Mindcensor performs admirably.

SB: -2 Shepherd -2 Titan +4 Metamorph

CAW Blade: Even (perhaps slightly favorable): Once again the fast clock, the big dudes, and the traps make this match good. Aven is good here too. Their heavy spot removal, and wrath of god in the board makes it a game.

We can usually combo into a ton of 4/4's and they simply can not keep up.

SB: -2 Primeval -1 Channelers +3 Null Rod

more to come...

Edit: I thought it would be flavorful to add this. I played Hive Mind once on MWS tonight. I lost the match, but G2 he Pact of Negation, and I had an untapped Knight, Channeler and a Scryb on the board my topdeck was showing creature. I Knighted -> topdeck creature grabbed a fetch. Fetched -> topdeck GSZ. Returned forest untapped Knight. Knighted grabbing fetch -> topdeck creature, fetched topdeck ->creature. My turn untapped Knight -> Knighted grabbing fetch Top decked a Land, and paid the pact with the channelers. That was the first time I played against that deck, and it was cool.

Also, having Dryad Arbor on top is just funny. Options.

[soiber2000]

Hello again. I like where you are going Freggle. Garruk wildspeaker ie a good card that sometimes wins the game, but in my testing rarely I activate his ultimate for lethal. I it a good step to test without him.
I was also thinking in white for Reliquary, because it is too good with ranger, but i fear to finnally vlbecome too similar to my actual deck (GW Zenith). That's because Qasali is the next white inclusion, and then swords. But if it can stay away from that and just make a small splash for reliquary and maybe mindcensor, it could be quite promissing. I always love to play a turn two flashed mindcensor because although you are not noticing all his power, your opponnent is more worryued with him than mul daya or reliquary.
I will test a similar list, primaveral titan is something i want to test because is a good beater and can make good things, but i'm still thinking what else broken can do.
Now some questions. You have turn 1 mana dorks (aside from gsz), don't you feel they are too much? And you have to replace llanowar elves with noble hierarch. Safeekeeper is a must, but don't you think it deserves a maindeck slot? Is Nullmage shepherd superior to wickerbough elder? Can you activate it consistently? Combo matchups are really bad, specially high tide and dredge, and reanimator is not good also. Don't you have the same feeling?

Congratulations and we keep working.

[Bruticus]

Combo matchups are really bad, specially high tide and dredge, and reanimator is not good also. Don't you have the same feeling?

Some tech I've been considering for Mono (or mostly) G ramp builds; Thorn of Amethyst + Phyrexian Metamorph. Metamorph can work as ramp, pressure, or pace control. It should be in the sideboard anyways as an out to Progenitus and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.

[Philipp2293]

@Freggle: You could run a Cradle, no?

[Freggle]

Hello again. I like where you are going Freggle. Garruk wildspeaker ie a good card that sometimes wins the game, but in my testing rarely I activate his ultimate for lethal. I it a good step to test without him.
I was also thinking in white for Reliquary, because it is too good with ranger, but i fear to finnally vlbecome too similar to my actual deck (GW Zenith). That's because Qasali is the next white inclusion, and then swords. But if it can stay away from that and just make a small splash for reliquary and maybe mindcensor, it could be quite promising.

I agree, and it has been quite promising. Qasali Pridemage although good would not make the cut here. Nullmage Shepherd and / or Wickerbough Elder would be a better fit for many reasons but mainly because they are positive CA, have meat to them, and the deck can support it's mana cost.


I always love to play a turn two flashed mindcensor because although you are not noticing all his power, your opponnent is more worryued with him than mul daya or reliquary.

This has proven to be very true.


You have turn 1 mana dorks (aside from gsz), don't you feel they are too much?

Sometimes yes. Most of the time no. The fact that they trigger Summoning Trap if countered, and from time to time eat removal makes them worth while. Ramping into a 3 CMC T2 such as Aven Mindcensor or Knight of the Reliquary is also very good. If it weren't for the traps I'd consider them to be Wild Growth and Utopia Sprawl as we run mainly basics, and they would be harder to answer. ...but we are running trap, and Channelers so they will stay mana dorks. I think the count is good.


And you have to replace llanowar elves with noble hierarch?

No. I don't think I will. The plays fine without them. I also like that elves threaten lackeys, and confidants to stay at bay whereas Nobles do not.


Safeekeeper is a must, but don't you think it deserves a maindeck slot?

No. Sacrificing a Forest is a major tempo loss. Most decks can not keep up spot removal to creature. It's better to just have another combo fattie. Some decks where the shoud is helpful it's better just to board in games 2 & 3.


Is Nullmage shepherd superior to wickerbough elder?

I'm on the fence on that. Since we have so many mana dorks, and we can create more 4/4's I chose Nullmage Shepherd mainly because it is re-useable to get major CA of of her. ...plus you can block a fully grown Nacatyl right off the bat. I've only tested her, so I can not say for sure.


Some tech I've been considering for Mono (or mostly) G ramp builds; Thorn of Amethyst + Phyrexian Metamorph. Metamorph can work as ramp, pressure, or pace control. It should be in the sideboard anyways as an out to Progenitus and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.

Now that is interesting. I'd test it right off the bat is Thorn of Amethyst was a creature (like Lodesotne Golem), but since it isn't it requires some thought. Phyrexian Metamorph is in the board specifically for an out to Progenitus and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Running Amethyst may be a good board play.

Since we do have a tiny white splash we do have access to Ethersworn Canonist if need be.

Edit: Ethersworn Canonist may not be good. She nullifies the greatness of triggered Summoning Traps.


@Freggle: You could run a Cradle, no?

You could, but I would recommend against it. It's just a target for Wasteland and we do not need the ramp. If you notice I took out Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary because the intensive ramp is not longer necessary because of the addition of Aven Mindcensor, Knight of the Reliquary and increase in Mul Daya Channelers. In other words the curve is smoother.

Speaking of Wasteland I love it when I play GSZ to Dryad Arbor and my opponent Wastelands my Arbor. That is a tempo gain for me.

Edit: I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment, but I believe this deck is a few cards swaps shy of Modern legal.

[Bruticus]

If there's a home for Aven Mindcensor, I think it's in green. He puts a hamper on any deck that relies on tutors and greedy manabases. On top of that, he makes mutual tutor cards like Weird Harvest, New Frontiers and Collective Voyage more abusable.

Between of few different ramp engines such as off/any color mana dorks, enchant lands like Utopia Sprawl, combined with numerous ways to fetch land or forest cards like Murmuring Bosk, Mono-G Ramp can splash all kinds of hate.

Freggle, you should try cutting 2x Green Sun's Zeniths for 2x Cream of the Crop. One you start cracking 4/4 Beasts on the board, it could allow you to cycle through your deck for just about anything. You have 6 tutors, you'll get one early, or this will help find them as you bust out creatures in the meantime. You have 10 one-drop mana ramp slots, so you don't have to worry about early accel. Depending on the situation Summoning Trap could work better too.

[Freggle]

Freggle, you should try cutting 2x Green Sun's Zeniths for 2x Cream of the Crop.

I'll be testing this tonight. That could be really good. The thing that worries me a tiny bit is that put's more of an enchantress-y like spin to the deck wherein you *should* play Cream of the Crop earlier than later to get it's greatest effect and complicating the T2 Aven Mindcensor / Knight of the Reliquary / Mul Daya Channelers plays.

...but it should be tested.

Edit: The other thing that worries me a little is that even though Summoning Trap & Green Sun's Zenith are not creatures when casted they produce one. ...So it is essentially like casting a creature which keep the pressure on strong. In the case of Cream of the Crop in a Green Sun's Zenith slot it's like adding card dis-advantage to the deck. Like a top deck tutor, but not immediately that good. I'll test it but I'm growing more sceptical.


If there's a home for Aven Mindcensor...

To further this point more specifically for this deck Aven Mindcensor has been overall great at eating counters (and possibly triggering Summoning Trap), gobbling removal (taking attention away from the decks core beaters / combo-ers), and / or otherwise generally messing with your opponent.

He feels really good in here.

[Bruticus]

The deck will play different, no doubt. It might not work as well as 4 Zenith, or be win more, or some 3/3 or 3/2 split could work better. My thinking's that this is something played mid-game after you've established some board presence or pressure. Between Knight, fetches and Scryb Rangers, I see scenarios where you keep getting Zenith over and over.

Why aren't you running Karakas? It should be an auto include with Knight.

Your deck should really have it's own thread. It's not zenith abuse or toolbox, it's ramp/aggro/landfall, kind of like my Land Assault deck

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?9246-Deck-Land-Assault

The decklist's not current. The Meta is waaay different now. No vineyards, for one -- but I need a few cards before I can goldfish and start testing again.

[Freggle]

The deck will play different, no doubt. It might not work as well as 4 Zenith, or be win more, or some 3/3 or 3/2 split could work better. My thinking's that this is something played mid-game after you've established some board presence or pressure. Between Knight, fetches and Scryb Rangers, I see scenarios where you keep getting Zenith over and over.

If that is the case we may be better off dropping a GSZ, or a Primeval Titan for a Wirewood Savage. Firstly she's a creature so inherently has better synergy with Summoning Trap & Mul Daya Channelers, and secondly she can be putting in some hits herself.

Then when you are crackn' fetches OR Knights OR whatever with a Rampaging Baloths on the board your drawing for even more absurd CA (1 4/4 creaure / 1 card).

Edit: This would be good in matches where the board gets wiped with wrath effects so your hand is ready to go again.

Edit 2: It should be noted that getting GSZ over and over again is never bad. It can get you more Rampaging Baloths, Dryad Arbors ...or whatever you need.


Why aren't you running Karakas? It should be an auto include with Knight.

Don't own one, and didn't think of it. I can see it being a great board piece


Your deck should really have it's own thread. It's not zenith abuse or toolbox, it's ramp/aggro/landfall, kind of like my Land Assault deck

I may just do that but I wanted to keep it here with all this history. It was really born from abusing GSZ.

As for deck it looked interesting ...dated but interesting. If you have the itch I would certainly say you should start testing again. That's why we are all here.

[Greenpoe]

Is having Primeval Titan really better than Vigor? Vigor might be somewhat conditional, as he needs other creatures to be good, but once you have enough mana for Primeval Titan, I don't see much good in getting more. Sure, he's good for landfall with Rampaging Baloths, but Vigor makes them indestructible. On another note, this deck could be pretty strong in Modern (with some adjustments, like Deus of Calamity+Noble Hierarch synergy to fight 12 post).

[Freggle]

Is having Primeval Titan really better than Vigor? Vigor might be somewhat conditional, as he needs other creatures to be good, but once you have enough mana for Primeval Titan, I don't see much good in getting more. Sure, he's good for landfall with Rampaging Baloths, but Vigor makes them indestructible. On another note, this deck could be pretty strong in Modern (with some adjustments, like Deus of Calamity+Noble Hierarch synergy to fight 12 post).

Yeah in the end I do think Primeval Titan is better than Vigor. Vigor is KINDA a win more. If all is going well the fact that you can make 5 4/4's a turn overshadows the need for invincibility. Primeval Titan on the other hand give us landfalls & lands. That is some serious CA. The lands are not useless either. Since our opener requires mana men to get the speed we need a board wipe can be devastating (as we CAN have minimal mana and high casting cost cards.) If a board wipe does happen the extra lands helps us bounce back more speedily. If we do find a slot for Wirewood Savage, and fill our hand off of generating 4/4's board wipes could possibly become a who cares moment.

Edit: Also, a T1 trap into a Primeval Titan is light years better than trapping into a Vigor.

[soiber2000]

Edit: Also, a T1 trap into a Primeval Titan is light years better than trapping into a Vigor.

This is the best reason to play him in my opinion. But also, Vigor is testing very well against Goblins, merfolks and zoo (but less). When the board is full of creatures in both sides, Vigor is the game winning card.

Now in my "big slots" I'm testing 3 Rampaging Baloths, 1 Vigor and 2 Primeval Titan.

@Gaea's cradle: I think that playing 1 copy with Reliquary is something good to consider.

I will try the white splash next friday, and Nullmage shepherd, but 4 copies of Aven Mindcensor I think they are too much. And also the fourth Mul Daya Channelers could be Knight of the reliquary as well.

[Freggle]

@Gaea's cradle: I think that playing 1 copy with Reliquary is something good to consider.

Yeah that could be good. Especially with the fact that you can Knight it in response to a Wasteland target, and tutor up it's replacement.

edit: oops, no you can't it's not a forest or a plains... now I don't know.


I will try the white splash next friday, and Nullmage shepherd, but 4 copies of Aven Mindcensor I think they are too much. And also the fourth Mul Daya Channelers could be Knight of the reliquary as well.

Aven is at 4 to maximize the possibility of the T2 surprise if you start dropping the count his effectiveness will diminish which is a change. I'm not saying a bad one, but a change. Dropping 1 could be interesting.

I would keep the 4th Channelers a Channeler. For a Knight to hit as hard T3 as a Channeler (creature on top) you would have to fetch 3 times. That is dis-synergis with the whole deck as you are wasting landfalls. Plus a countered Channeler (possibly triggering a trap) [or eating removal] is "who cares"-ish. A knight countered [or eating removal] t2 would be bad.

Edit: This is also why you attack T3 before you play your creature... to try and force the issue and draw the removal making your combo pieces safer.

[Bruticus]

Provided you stick an early mana dork and make all your land drops, Channelers either cracks heads or accells into Summoning Trap as early as turn three. This deck has several high cost spells that are otherwise unplayable. You won't always have a trap or be playing against permission decks.

[Freggle]

Is having Primeval Titan really better than Vigor? Vigor might be somewhat conditional, as he needs other creatures to be good, but once you have enough mana for Primeval Titan, I don't see much good in getting more. Sure, he's good for landfall with Rampaging Baloths, but Vigor makes them indestructible. On another note, this deck could be pretty strong in Modern (with some adjustments, like Deus of Calamity+Noble Hierarch synergy to fight 12 post).

So while mulling the deck list over today, and thinking of what Greenpoe is talking about I can't help but wonder that swapping the 2-3 Primeval Titan in the deck for 2-3 Deus of Calamity.

Given the CMC 5 and it's ability the swap should be considered.


I still doubt his ability will trigger in any given game, but then I thought about it more. Even if it doesn't people will be loosing some good utility creatures and / or mana drops.

On top of that when attacking side by side with a team of non-trample 4/4's what do you block a trample creature that will still hit you for X but will save a land or the vanilla that you could save 4?

Either one your opponent chooses that is not a good spot for them to be in.

...and in the event that you do trap him out early I could see it being game over (outside of it not having shroud), not ramp easier as Primeval Titan provides. That's a deeper hole for your opponent to dig out of. ...and if they Dazeed that could be fun.

...or if you surprise hard cast Summoning Trap when your opponent alpha strikes with his entire team and you drop him on the board that would also be very good. Unless their team is flying you will likely kill something, and get in for 6 and a land on your turn.

It may also be efficient way to keep people off of Wrath of God or Perish mana.

I'll test it and see what happens.

[Freggle]

Deus of Calamity is a step backwards for the deck... at least in the Primeval Titan slot.

There were times in this build where I could have GSZ'ed for a Primeval Titan while a Rampaging Baloths was on the board. This would have put the nail in the coffin a turn(s) sooner.

Instead the correct GSZ target became Knight of the Reliquary, and due to it summoning sickness I was unable to abuse Baloths. I attack and pass the turn and loose the Baloths to removal. I still won the game but it was not the most optimal build.

Second eye-raising senario: I get a mana dork Dazed. I cast Summoning Trap at 0. The best creature available was Deus of Calamity. I pass the turn, and get Deus STP'ed. I have Aven Mindcensor and Knight of the Reliquary and green mana dorks in hand. I'm locked (by color) out of my power cards.

Had it been a Primeval Titan I trapped I would have brought the pressure with a Aven Mindcensor followed by a Knight of the Reliquary. ..instead I just cast mana dorks (weeee :-/ )

there was one other senario where it proved it's non-worth I should have written it down, but I have forgotten it. If I recall it I will edit this post.

Edit: Ah yes. ...there was another game where I had deus, and Scryb rocking both offence and defense. As in I would attack with Deus, and untap Deus of Calamity with Scryb Ranger. This was working okay except I had a Rampaging Baloths itching to get on the board. I could not achive postive land drops to ramp the mana to 6. Had it been a Primeval Titan using Scryb Ranger return a forest would have been moot at I still would have had positive drops.

One other thing that was brought to my attention during 1 trap. Running 1 Garruk, Primal Hunter is a liability. ...a small liability, but a liability none the less. when he's on top with Mul Daya Channelers he produces nothing. Normally we can shuffle him away so its not so much of an issue. ..but if we consistently shuffle him away for favorable top decks then he should not be in there.

I had one trap where he was the best of the 7, but he's not a creature so I couldn't put him into play. The next best was a Scryb Ranger. ...lame.

Edit 2: I wonder if it would be too greedy to add 1 or 2 Wasteland to the deck. Knight of the Reliquary and Primeval Titan can "tutor" for them and give us even more tempo advantage. ...it can also possibly hold back a Wrath of God or Perish possibly long enough to squeeze out easier wins. ...might also increase the pain of Aven Mindcensor

[Freggle]

Edit 2: I wonder if it would be too greedy to add 1 or 2 Wasteland to the deck. Knight of the Reliquary and Primeval Titan can "tutor" for them and give us even more tempo advantage. ...it can also possibly hold back a Wrath of God or Perish possibly long enough to squeeze out easier wins. ...might also increase the pain of Aven Mindcensor

The answer is NO, No not at all!

The Power level of this deck just went way up.

-1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
-1 Nullmage Shepherd

+2 Wasteland

It's now with Aven Mindcensor & tutor-able Wastelands two color decks are pretty restricted. Like severely restricted.

Keeping opponents off of the scary 4 Wrath of God mana has been pretty easy.

I'm lovin' this!

Below is the complete list:


// Lands
10 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
2 Wasteland

// Creatures
3 Rampaging Baloths
4 Scryb Ranger
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Mul Daya Channelers
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Aven Mindcensor
1 Nullmage Shepherd
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Primeval Titan

// Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoning Trap

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 3 Beast Within
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 3 Null Rod

[baghdadbob]

This is my current mono green zenith stompy deck. It will never be tier one but it will give you the feeling back you used to have when playing your worm deck when your were 15.


4 Scrying Sheets
15 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle

2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Terastodon
2 Troll Ascetic
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Skinshifter
4 Myr Superion
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Mul Daya Channelers
1 Dungrove Elder

SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Beast Within
SB: 4 Mental Misstep
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg

[Bruticus]

Turn 1 Summoning Trap into Gaea's Revenge is getting my mind going. Rancor would be fantastic here.

[Freggle]

Turn 1 Summoning Trap into Gaea's Revenge is getting my mind going. Rancor would be fantastic here.

I can see how it could get the mind going, but Primeval Titan is still our best early target.

Gaea's Revenge borders on the cool things to do. The fact that he does not have trample is a major negative as he can be chump blocked all game. ...and running Rancor to correct that is a major synergy step backwards. Not to mention it's a two card "combo" as opposed to 1 good card.

If/when you Summoning Trap into a Primeval Titan you get major card advantage INSTANTLY. Even if your Titan gets removed your still way ahead.

Here is why:

You play creature (-1 you) your opponent counters (-1 them.) You Summoning Trap (-2 total you.) You put Primeval Titan into play (-1 total you.) You then place 2 lands into play (+1 total you.) Pass the turn they play removal (-2 them.) Maveric78f's correction Lost your creature ( net CA change you 0)

Total CA tally:

You + 0 <--Maveric78f's correction
Them -2

Total CA Delta:

You +2 <--Maveric78f's correction

Then when you take into consideration that your two lands can now be 2 Wastelands that play gets a little out of hand (tempo wise.)

Therefore our early Trap list looks like this:

1 Primeval Titan
2 Rampaging Baloths
3 Mul Daya Channelers
...

...but all of these choices change as the board develops / yard fills with lands, you should be looking to see if any "combos" can be completed / furthered.

[Maveric78f]

Got me 5 minutes to understand how you could find a +3 CA with a card that does only +2. Your calculus looked good, but I finally found out: you forgot that their removal was actually removing something, so that you should also have -1CA when the removal resolves. In the end, you have 2 free lands, which is CA, but beyond CA, maybe more importantly it's awesome tempo-gain. And your deck knows how to take advantage of such tempo gain.

Also:
- you should play 1 copy of Cradle and first turn GSZ is not that great in your deck, so that I would not play 2 dryads. In otehr terms, I would replace 1 dryad with 1 cradle.
- Eternal witness might be better than Knight.

[Freggle]

Got me 5 minutes to understand how you could find a +3 CA with a card that does only +2. Your calculus looked good, but I finally found out: you forgot that their removal was actually removing something, so that you should also have -1CA when the removal resolves.[/cards]

You are correct. Thank you for the correction.

[QUOTE=Maveric78f;577284]In the end, you have 2 free lands, which is CA, but beyond CA, maybe more importantly it's awesome tempo-gain. And your deck knows how to take advantage of such tempo gain.

You are correct on that.



Also:
- you should play 1 copy of [Gaea's Cradle] and first turn GSZ is not that great in your deck, so that I would not play 2 dryads. In other terms, I would replace 1 dryad with 1 cradle.

what makes you think T1 Dryad Arbor isn't that good? ...is it that it could be countered and not trigger Summoning Trap?

Because beyond that I find it to be a strong play. ...and later in the game you can Green Sun's Zenith an Dryad Arbor to generate more landfalls & ramp.

I think Gaea's Cradle is a good card, but this deck does not need the mana as bad as it needs the landfalls, but you know I should test it out since everyone keeps telling me to put it in.


- Eternal witness might be better than Knight.

I can see where you reading the list you can come to that conclusion, but playing the deck I would certainly choose Knight of the Reliquary over Eternal Witness. Knight does so much for this deck. Primarily she consistently generates landfalls. I know Eternal Witness can do that once grabbing a fetch, but there is no comparison there. In addition Knight's shuffle effect is an excellent tool in fixing Mul Daya Channeler top decks, and therefore their abilities.

Lastly, Knight grows to epic proportions very quickly whereas Witness will always be a 2/1.

For me it is hands down Knight. Witness may find a slot in the deck, but it's certainly not over a Knight.

[Maveric78f]

what makes you think T1 Dryad Arbor isn't that good? ...is it that it could be countered and not trigger Summoning Trap?
Sorry, I've been fast in my argumentation. I mean that you play 8 mana creatures and that you will prefer that to playing a turn 1 GSZ on Dryad, for summoning trap, but not only. Also, because you prefer to do something else with GSZ although with the man guys you can't do anything else than getting a mana guy.


Because beyond that I find it to be a strong play. ...and later in the game you can Green Sun's Zenith an Dryad Arbor to generate more landfalls & ramp.
I won't lie: I did not suspect this play. However, once you played Baloth, you probably can GSZ on titan, which looks more effective. If Baloth was trapped in, then it's a very narrow case when you have already dryad in hand/play and cannot do anything better than using GSZ for landfall.



I can see where you reading the list you can come to that conclusion, but playing the deck I would certainly choose Knight of the Reliquary over Eternal Witness. Knight does so much for this deck. Primarily she consistently generates landfalls. I know Eternal Witness can do that once grabbing a fetch, but there is no comparison there. In addition Knight's shuffle effect is an excellent tool in fixing Mul Daya Channeler top decks, and therefore their abilities.

Lastly, Knight grows to epic proportions very quickly whereas Witness will always be a 2/1.

For me it is hands down Knight. Witness may find a slot in the deck, but it's certainly not over a Knight.
Let's say that Witness enables you to chain the Traps into something relevant. And also, it's a great card, no matter what. Looking at your list, you seem to much focused on the landfall part. I mean, you play only 3 Landfall cards (the baloths), but you play 4 GSZ + 4 Rangers + 2 titans + 3 knights + 20 lands that generate landfalls.

I'm not even sure that the baloth/landfall route is the best one for this deck.

[Freggle]

...However, once you played Baloth, you probably can GSZ on titan, which looks more effective. If Baloth was trapped in, then it's a very narrow case when you have already dryad in hand/play and cannot do anything better than using GSZ for landfall.

It depends how he got there and what else is happening on the board.

You could have powered him out there on Mul Daya Channelers land on top ability. ...or by an mana dork who bit it to a Grim Lavamancer or Darkblast ...or buy using Scryb Rangers untap ability who has since been bolted because the Scryb Ranger / Rampaging Baloths synergy is just too broken.

Point is there are many ways to get a Rampaging Baloths into play where you would not have the mana to supprt a Green Sun's Zenith at 6 (CMC 7.)


Let's say that Witness enables you to chain the Traps into something relevant.

Although that is cool. It would suck on a hard cast-ed trap.


And also, it's a great card, no matter what.

I'll give you that. Like I said it may get into the 75, but I still do not think over Knight.


Looking at your list, you seem to much focused on the landfall part. I mean, you play only 3 Landfall cards (the baloths), but you play 4 GSZ + 4 Rangers + 2 titans + 3 knights + 20 lands that generate landfalls.

22 lands now with the Wastelands.

I think the correct way to look at that is that all of those CAN produce other landfalls.

GSZ is not just a land fall card, I think we can agree on that.

Scryb is a deck enabler. It was added to abuse Baloths, but has proven to be an accelerator. ...miss a land drop? No problem return a (tapped if you wanna) forest to you hand untap a mana dork and drop untapped forest for 2 extra mana that turn. Scry is also nuts against Vendilion Cliques, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

Scrybs flash also creates havoc on combat math. As your opponent can attack past a tapped army just for us to flash a scryb and untap a monster.

2 Primeval Titan are a CA card, tutors Wasteland and is not just a landfall trigger.

3 Knight of the Reliquary can be a huge body, and a board dominator all on her own. She also Tutors lands, and creates shuffles. She's no longer in the deck just for landfalls.

22 Lands 20 of those have to be in there anyhow.

Furthermore, There may only be 3 true Rampaging Baloths but there are 8 "tutor like" cards to find one.

There is also multiple shuffle effects, and top deck peekers (Mul Daya Channelers) to further increase the chances of finding one.

There is quite a bit of synergy in the deck that can be easily overlooked even after a few plays. Frankly, I'm still learning.


I'm not even sure that the baloth/landfall route is the best one for this deck.

To admit that something is absolutely is correct is to admit that you are unwilling to learn. I'm open to alternatives, but this list has quite a few tricks up it's sleeve.

[Bruticus]

I agree that Titan is the better card, especially in your landfall deck... but this is the general Zenith thread, remember? ;) Just brainstorming here. Rancor comes back or eats counters, and the only removal in the format that can take care of Revenge is Maelstrom Pulse and Beast Within. It's decent. You'd have to build around it or have complimentary packages, sure, but that's what this thread is for.

Try -1 Dryad Arbor, +1 Wasteland. I'm also curious about adding one or two Wirewood Savages, but I'm pretty sure Titan is stronger as it provides pressure, deck thinning and land tutors. Maybe a different build.


I'm not even sure that the baloth/landfall route is the best one for this deck.

I think it's more of a Trap, landfall deck than Zenith. Trap + Witness is definitely worth exploring. It could be totally abused.

[Freggle]

So today I took this deck to a local 16 Man, and I had a very rough time.

For the day I went (in all actuality removing the bye) 0-3.

The good news is I do not think it is entirely the list. In retrospect I saw how I could have won just about each of those matches if I were just a better player. ...I don't think my play is terrible, but it certainly leaves much to be desired to defeat skilled players. I'll detail later:

The actual list I ran today:

// Lands
10 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
2 Wasteland

// Creatures
3 Rampaging Baloths
4 Scryb Ranger
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Mul Daya Channelers
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Aven Mindcensor
2 Nullmage Shepherd
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Primeval Titan

// Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoning Trap

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 3 Beast Within
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 3 Null Rod

Match 1: 1-2 I don't know if there is a fancy name for it, but it's a mono black deck that runs Hymn, Gatekeeper, thoughtseize, doomblade, and stuff like that. This is a known rough MU.

G1 was rough, T1 my opponent dark rits into a Hypnotic Specter and widdles away at my life and hand for a bit. I GSZ'ed out an Drayd Arbor to set up the T2 Channelers. I play the channelers and the next turn I swing. T3 he drops a kicked gatekeeper and I (certainly not taking the time to think) sac the channerlers. I don't know why I did this Channelers was tearing him up, and would have likely still have kept beating him, or killed Hypie, or both. I should have sac-ed the Dryad Arbor, but I realize it after I declare I'm sac-ing Channelers. Really stupid! That causes a loss game 1.

Board: -2 Nullmage -2 Wasteland -3 Trap +4 Phyrexian Metamorph +3 Beast Within

G2 I open with a GSZ to an Dryad Arbor, Opponent drops a land an passes the turn, T2 I drop channelers at 5/5. (creature on top) Opponent Dark Rits into a Hypie T4 I copy the Hypie with Metamporph. T5 I beast within his hypie, and win with the team.

FYI: This likely isn't news to anyone out there, but Beast Within is not that great here. I should look to switch it to STP.

G3 No change in board. Ugly match. I get blasted with sac effect after sac effect, and lose to a Hypie.

In retrospect I could have taken this match with a more attentive look at the board and a proper sacrifice G1, and likely the match because I took Game 2 swimmingly.

Match 2: Burn 1-2 (previously untested)

G1 Very stressful game (for both parties involved) On the draw after getting smacked by guide I Once again opening by GSZing a Dryad. I pass the turn to face 2 Rift Bolts. This sucks. I thought long and hard about what to do so I chose this. I had both Channelers, and a 2 Knights in hand. I knew this was going to be a very short clock for me so I decide to try and bait a bolt to the knight (1 fetch in yard) to avoid them both from coming at my head.

It works, and my opponent chooses both the Dryad Arbor and the knight and swings with guide. T4 I play channelers to shut his Guide up and it works at a 5/5. Some burn spell comes my way. ...Then T4 I drop Knight. I keep punching at him but he keeps coming up with blockers. T5 he goes all in to kill a 4/4 knight first with a bolt and then with a creature that does 1 or two damage to all creatures as a come into play. The order he chose was a mistake on his part I'm sure because he gave me the opportunity to do the following play. Since my Dryad Arbor was to on its way to the yard anyhow, I tap knight to sac Dryad (saving the land-ish) and tutor a fetch, I crack the fetch to save Knight who is now a 6/6. He goes all in and double sacs two mountains to finish her off with a fireblast. ...that took a lot of gas out of his engine, so I think I MAY have him here.

Next turn I hardcast trap, and it does not cooperate. I find a Aven Mincensor. Yes that was the best. I don't think I ever saw a worse 7. He bolts Mincensor and bolts me to 1. I swing and put him to 6. I trap again, and once again it does not cooperate, I had NEVER seen this before. I don't think it statistically probable as I had not seen Primeval or Baloths all game. I grab a Scryb. He finds a bolt and gets me.

Board nothing

G2 and early channelers, and no goblin guide make it a quick win for me. On thing I should note is I had GSZ forest, and big dudes. (I top decked the Channelers T2) In order to avoid early uncontested bolts coming at me on his T1 I drop a Dryad Arbor T1 to see if I can bait a bolt and "time walk" persay. So I can have some control of tempo. It works he went mountain bolt. T2 I went GSZ Dryad, as he went grim and them bolted me. ...bolting mana is futile I think he caught on now, but I tried to make it look like it could have been another Wasteland like play.

G3 I messed up I had Thrun in my hand, and for some reason I thought he had pro blue, and not troll shroud (yeah I do not know either) I slow played it baiting bolts to sub optimal targets holding the best for last. I could have played Thrun as early as t3, but I wanted to make sure I had the mana to regenerate him on a bolt so I waited to t5. HUGE mistake. He could not have been bolted (hexproof), and I could have widdled away at his grim lavamancer army (3) and likely have gone lethal. This was the biggest and most embarassing of my mistakes for the day. So I accidentally gave my opponent the match.


G3 was Merfolk 1-2

Rather then type this all out as it's getting super late, I was owned by coralhelm.

G1 loss I attribute to my bad play. I once again tried to GSZ an arbor Dryad out T1 which was mistepped. I had mana men and a trap. Had I known I was playing control I should have lead with a mana dork, but the GSZ play was working well all night. I don't know what I was doing that should have been game. ...or close to it. (as in traping a beastie and riding it on home)

I go mana man T2 who also gets missteped. So I trap, it gets forced. I later ask it it was top decked, but he does not remember. I'm pretty sure it was because I was watching where the card went when it went into his hand. yet another unskilled player mistake.

I won game 2 by slow playing. In doing so I was able to Trap a baloth and pop a few landfalls before it was submerged. Scryb was money against coral helm, and I eventually punched through for lethal.

G3 was the coral helm show. I had trap, and tried very hard to bait it out. ...but my opponent countered nothing as he had good board position and vial active. I got channelers going but the speed in which the tribal kicked in on this game was to fast for even 5/5's. Ridiculous.

The last play is I had GSZ, mana elf, and something irrelevant. I play the elf, and he has no reason to counter as next turn he would fly in for leathal with two coralhelms. So I GSZ for two (thinking Scryb ...I had a second on the board) He forces it and causes game and match.

In the end I really like the deck. I'm disappointed in myself, and my play but there is definitively something to this list. Everyone thought it was really cool, and scary to play against. I would ask if they felt it had tier potential and it was a resounding yes definitely. ...and many said that they were going to go home and brew off this list. ...it's decent, but needs work.

After going over it with people I think it's time I give a tight Natural Order Package a try. I was reluctant to give it the time of day, and test it prior to this. ...but after a day like this it's time.

I've already traded for the Progenitus.

I will test the following changes:

-1 Rampaging Baloths
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Scryb Ranger
-1 Mul Daya Channeler
-2 Nullmage Shepherd

+3 Natural Order
+1 Progenitus
+1 Terastodon
+1 Knight of the Reliquary

...I know I picked a tough road to get back into Magic after a decade or so out by trying to brew in a meta that is well developed. ..but tonight was hard. The good news is however many believe there is certainly something there, and if I only inspired people to develop a new or even slightly new archetype. I can be a little proud in that.

So any more ideas out there?

...and is it time for it's own thread?

PS- The original board totally underwhelmed me tonight.

[Greenpoe]

Why would you cut a GSZ? It's better to go -1 Llanowar Elves than -1 GSZ.

[Freggle]

Why would you cut a GSZ? It's better to go -1 Llanowar Elves than -1 GSZ.

It could be, but then again your looking at the 11 tutor issue, and complicated openers.

As in do you GSZ ->Dryad for acceleration and possibly miss a trap opportunity? ...or do you go mana dork?

Additionally, how many possible dead cards do you want in your deck for Mul Daya Channelers?

The concept discussed with many people is to use channelers and shuffle effects (fetches, GSZ, Knights) to do your best to keep Progenitus in your deck when you see him on top. Post channelers attack of course.

[jlagrav]

Hey I really like the deck Freggle, and I have a few ideas.

First, how about a bojuka bog or two in the sideboard. With knight and the titan to tutor for it it could really help your drege and reanimator matchups.

The other idea is a random card that has some synergy with mul day a, and its Crown of Convergence. It can give all your creatures a boost and filter your deck a bit. Not sure what to take out though.

[Freggle]

Hey I really like the deck Freggle, and I have a few ideas.

Cool! ...and thanks.


First, how about a bojuka bog or two in the sideboard. With knight and the titan to tutor for it it could really help your dre(d)ge and reanimator matchups.

Yeah, we talked about that yesterday which is why I'm going to test the 4th Knight of the Reliquary over a 4th Mul Daya Channeler.

...the board needs to be blown apart as is, and put together off a rigours testing process and MU analysis.


The other idea is a random card that has some synergy with mul day a, and its Crown of Convergence. It can give all your creatures a boost and filter your deck a bit. Not sure what to take out though.

That is very interesting, but we have to be cautious. That would also bring the disynergy count with Mul Daya Channelers up as well. (by which I mean not a land or creature) Somewhere in the area of up to 10 + X where x is the number of Crowns run.

That would put it over a 1 and 6 chance, and I think 1 in 6 is too high. ...prior to testing.

Which would mean you cut Channelers or tutors.

[Bruticus]

11 tutors is an issue, 3 Zenith is fine. It goes back into the deck, plus Trap, Fetches and Knight in conjunction with Scryb Ranger do a lot of deck thinning.

The cuts look right for the NO package, but only testing will tell. Bojuka Bog should definitely be in the board. Crown of Convergence looks neat.

EDIT: May I humbly submit the name "Beast Crackers" ;)

[Freggle]

EDIT: May I humbly submit the name "Beast Crackers" ;)

You may I like it.

Initial testing of the tight Natural Order package is testing well. The deck plays differently, but each play seems more solid, and wins are with more conviction.


[Y]ou play 8 mana creatures and that you will prefer that to playing a turn 1 GSZ on Dryad, for summoning trap, but not only. Also, because you prefer to do something else with GSZ although with the man guys you can't do anything else than getting a mana guy.

So thinking about my first turn GSZ's a bit I was playing them wrong. It would always be better to cast a mana dork if you have the opportunity excluding some match ups. This in turn makes your turn 2, 3, or 4 plays that much stronger. Also, with the prevalence of Misstep the general rule on it is to counter the first thing you can with it. So it is in our best interest to make sure we put our best foot forward to trigger those traps.

I'm still learning how to play the existing list to it's fullest. It's not a simple aggro deck. The decision trees are numerous, and fairly complex. You as the pilot are tying to optimize trap triggers, shuffle enablers, board control and bait playing. It's not too easy to pilot.

I think with the right player, and a few minor adjustments, and a fully developed sideboard this list will soar. It has quality beaters to push through and race discard, and burn. It has tricks and tenacity to fully challenge permission, and the board to find solutions to combo, and dredge.

Is there anyone willing out there willing to test with me to develop this deck and my play skills?

Edit: Man this list is tricked out. I understand that MWS opponents are not that great but this thing has a great track record tonight! I just got to live the dream I got a Noble Hierarch Mistepped and I trapped T1 into a Progenitus. That was awesome!

// Lands
10 [TSP] Forest (4)
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [R] Savannah
2 [MPR] Wasteland

// Creatures
2 [ZEN] Rampaging Baloths
3 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
3 [BD] Llanowar Elves
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise
1 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ROE] Mul Daya Channelers
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [CFX] Progenitus

// Spells
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [ZEN] Summoning Trap
3 [JGC] Natural Order

No Sideboard developed as of yet. I'd let my opponents side though. Still wins.

[Greenpoe]

Have you tried Omnath? He could allow for early beats and allow you to save extra mana for later turns.

[soiber2000]

Omnath will be my next test, it seems so good on paper. Also, I am not so happpy with the white slash, may be I try the monoG route again.

PD: other ideas for brainstorming. Fatties with Elvish piper (or norwood priestess) to play them faster. If there is a goor way to give them haste could be fun (concordant crossroads, or equipments). Just thoughts.

[unicoerner]

I don't like your big dudes. Aren't there better ones, which can change the outcome of the match on th spot. Perhaps Terstadon?
I feel like you miss disruption. Qasali seems like a good fit if you stay with white.
If you do i prob would add a plains anyway.
For board ethersowrn would look sexy.

[Freggle]

Omnath will be my next test, it seems so good on paper. Also, I am not so happpy with the white slash, may be I try the monoG route again.[/cards]

Greenpoe's Suggestion of Omanth is definitely something to try in a mono G as you could potentially even GSZ a Progenitus into play.

The white splash is not longer primarily for Aven Mindcensor who is conditionally AMAZING, and other times Meh (maybe sideboard time) but for one of the best creatures of the game Knight of the Reliquary.

Knights shuffles (in conjunction with other shuffles) helps keep Mul Daya Channelers a real threat. Knight it also an ungodly threat all on it's own.

Things to consider:

Knight of the Reliquary + Scryb Ranger = Really Good
Knight of the Reliquary + Knight of the Reliquary = Really really good (and happens a lot with a T2 knight T3 GSZ Knight)
Rampaging Baloths + Knight of the Reliquary = Outstandingly good
Knight of the Reliquary + Mul Daya Channelers = pretty good. ...you get the idea.

I'll keep testing the white splash, but a Mono G should be explored.

[QUOTE=soiber2000;577816]PD: other ideas for brainstorming. Fatties with Elvish piper (or norwood priestess) to play them faster.

This was talked about earlier. This could be good I do not believe it was tested yet. ...give it a whirl.

[Bruticus]

Some random stuff to replace Mindcensor, not sure if you want disruption, another 3 drop, or whatnot; Thornling, Terra Stomper, Mitotic Slime, Troll Ascetic, Acidic Slime, Sapling of Colfenor, Stunted Growth, Plow Under

Acidic Slime is hot, Stunted Growth and Plow under can be GG if casted early. I want to like Omanth, but can't. The fact that he's legendary sucks.

EDIT: Oh, Heartwood Storyteller and Spectral Force. Anyone who need Knights or Thrun better buy now before Modern forces prices through the roof.

[nexus blue]

I've been looking through this thread since it started and I like to see the massiv amounts of thought and testing going into this.

Why the Mul-Daya Channelers? I'm not saying they don't belong, but I've been through the thread and can't see what prompted you to include them and be so hard-up for them. Sure, they either get big quick or help with mana, but I can see other cards doing similar things. Which leads to....

Why no Sylvan Libraries? With Green having such lousy card draw, the ability to filter your draws seems like a good thing to have in conjunction with other shuffle effects like fetches and KotR.

I want to make sure I understand this correctly, but those 3 Llanowar Elves are supposed to be 3 Noble Hierarchs, right?

Lastly, I've seen that you're venturing into the territory of dropping or SBing the Aven Mindsensors, which to me makes sense. An inclusion of a singleton Omnath, coupled with Summoning Traps and GSZs gets you almost whatever you want relatively quickly. I've got an Emrakul along with Progenitus in the MB in my version of this, and the only time he's useless is when I draw him in the opening hand. I can always hide him in the top 2 with a Library if I'm waiting to get him out with a Trap.

Anyways, sweet idea and great evolution so far. Speed is of the essence and this seems to be getting faster and faster.

[Bruticus]

Why the Mul-Daya Channelers? I'm not saying they don't belong, but I've been through the thread and can't see what prompted you to include them and be so hard-up for them. Sure, they either get big quick or help with mana, but I can see other cards doing similar things. Which leads to....

Why no Sylvan Libraries? With Green having such lousy card draw, the ability to filter your draws seems like a good thing to have in conjunction with other shuffle effects like fetches and KotR.

I want to make sure I understand this correctly, but those 3 Llanowar Elves are supposed to be 3 Noble Hierarchs, right?

The channelers are integral to deck because they allow you hard cast a Trap somewhat early. If your opponent isn't playing counters, Trap is either slow or dead. Scryb Ranger with Channelers is insane, it can net you six mana (four of ANY color) out of nowhere.

Creature spell countered on turns 1, 2, or 3 = Trap

Turn 1, land, zenith for Dryad Arbor. Turn 2, land, Channelers. Turn 3, land, Scryb Ranger, tap Channelers for 2, return forest, untap Channelers, Channelers for 2, tap 2 forests = Trap

Turn 1, land, mana dork > turn 2, land, Channelers. Turn 3, land = Trap or beat for 5.

There are limited non-land or creature slots due to the Channelers abilities. They are powerful but situationally so. A different build could work.

The Elves are there to ward off Lackeys and whatnot, the deck has 5 zero power one-drops.

[Freggle]

I just missed my flight so it looks like I have a bit of time. (stupid customs)

...anyhow. Channelers are nice. In THIS aggro build because of just how efficient it is. Typically a 5/5 for 3. That is pretty BA.

It does limit (to an extent) what we can run in the deck to maximize it however. ...But remeber we want more creatures anyhow to maximize Summoning Trap as well.

I think it is possible to remove them and still have a competative deck. If I were to do that Id even look at running Manamorphose to thin the deck even more to maximize the chances of having a trap. ...But if you do that also gives a control opponent a spell to counter free of of the fear that Summoning Trap getting them.

It is in our best interest to pack the deck with quality beaters to synergize the whole thing. traps, trap triggers (creatures) and trap "targets" (creatures) as long as you are already you might as well bust an underutilized beater which is a 5/5 for 3. Which is absurdly broken.

Having that looking glass to your too deck is not a drawback either given how we manipulate our deck.

Lastly. I just poped my head in the mill 2012 thread and it mentioned chalice of the void for one. How funny would that be for our deck! I guess we would need the trap on hand but dork trap win sounds funny.

[Bruticus]

Chalice at 1, 2 or 3 with Trap is hilarious. A singleton Boseiju, Who Shelters All locks down a Zenith or Natural Order against control. A single Eternal Witness could make for some interesting tricks, or two can set up a recursion engine with Deadwood Treefolk. It's slow and clunky, I know. Needs a sac outlet. You could always block with it.

EDIT: Willow Priestess is a good sideboard card if you're expecting junk/depths combo. Block their 20/20 with your tiny Scryb Ranger.

[soiber2000]

Just more testing yesterday, with good and bad results.
First, I don't think Omnath deserves a single slot, Mul Daya and Reliquary are superior, specially the turn it comes into play and the next is just a bad creature. I didn't have time to extend the matches much more from them, so I couldn't use his full potential.

Second, I tested a list with the white splash and Natural Order, and here I am convinced it is the way to go. As expected, a resolved natural order (much easy against non blue decks) is just GG, except for those decks that can overrun you. I tested three or four matches against Goblins, and can say it is a completely unfavorable matchup. But I am not so worried about that because it has fallen a lot in presence.
One thing that keeps worrying me is decks that pack stoneforge and mother of runes. GW zenith is maybe 50% or favorable, we can overrun them or just play progenitus and win, but once mother of runes lands, it becomes a completely nightmare, blocking our fatties and giving protection to guys such as reliquary, and equiped is just worse. The other deck that runs mother of runes is still worse: BW with stoneforge, mothers, vindicstes, discard, and our worst nightmare, Mirran Crusader. This guy resolved and equiped is just almost imposible to beat. Just won one match against Mirran equiped where I managed to play a Primeval Titan, two rampaging baloths and triggered 8 tokens.

For that reason, I think that we need and answer to those decks. One thing could be Masticore. Yes, it is not green and cannot be searched with zenith or natural order, but in green there is no way to deal with guys, specially if they can give them protection. Masticore kills mother of runes, nobles, confidants, lavamancers, avens, scryb rangers...easily, and mirrans, merfolks and goblins paying 4 mana, not so much. It could be like the Elves old school tech. Another thing I came up is that a sigle Maze of ith have to be somewhere in the 75. With knight and titan we could have another answer to equipped guys and/or with protection. Another idea is Tower of the Magistrate to prevent equip.

[Freggle]

I've been looking through this thread since it started and I like to see the massiv amounts of thought and testing going into this.

We're trying. I don't believe any of us are Adepts, but we're giving it our best shot.


Why no Sylvan Libraries? With Green having such lousy card draw, the ability to filter your draws seems like a good thing to have in conjunction with other shuffle effects like fetches and KotR.

I think within the following posts this has been answered in a round about way, but I will now answer it directly. The reason I was reluctant to add it was because it is not a creature, and we already have a high non-creature count. I understand that once / or if it gets to play it's great at it's job and can help fill hands, but as you mention speed is of the essence, and I'm not sure we have the time to wait for Sylvan to function for us. T2 you should be dropping a Knight of the Reliquary or Mul Daya Channelers and maybe an (Aven Mindcensor.) Not a Sylvan Library. There are conditions where that is not possible such as burn MU's and a T1 where you trap or don't trap, but those are far-and-few between. I know Sylvan is powerful, but i'm leery of it's place in here. Sounds like you have been running it okay. Is that correct? Has it given you any trouble with the rest of the deck?




I want to make sure I understand this correctly, but those 3 Llanowar Elves are supposed to be 3 Noble Hierarchs, right?

I was thinking about this more last night. It is possible that we do drop some Birds of Paradise for the remaining Nobel Hierarchs with minimal disruption to the deck.

...and by minimal I mean potential future. It has been discussed that we could do a 5 color hate board and another splash dual since we can get a lot of colors with the current build, but with what we are doing now I think nobles for birds is the correct thing to do in the quest for exalted triggers.

I know there where many games where if they were nobels scryb could have been tearing up my opponent, and not dinging them for 1 a turn.


Second, I tested a list with the white splash and Natural Order, and here I am convinced it is the way to go.

It's good to see I'm not eniterly crazy. This Article (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21824-Article-Tuning-NO-RUG-What-would-Kibler-do&p=577922#post577922) (about NO RUG) also goes into detail about how good Knight of the Reliquary can be, and gives a bit more credence to the inclusion other than me saying it should be in there.


As expected, a resolved natural order (much easy against non blue decks) is just GG, except for those decks that can overrun you.

Two things here: 1 about Blue decks I think it would be good if we test 3-4 Eternal Witness in the board for the control MU. As Maveric78f mentioned earlier in this thread if you chain an Eternal Witness off a triggered Summoning Trap you can return trap to your hand and trap again. This will allow us to dig deeper, and possibly deeper until we can find Progenitus which is pretty cool.

Secondly, got decks that can over run us I wonder if we should look at Vigor again?


I tested three or four matches against Goblins, and can say it is a completely unfavorable matchup. But I am not so worried about that because it has fallen a lot in presence.

I'll see if I can brainstorm on this.


One thing that keeps worrying me is decks that pack stoneforge and mother of runes. GW zenith is maybe 50% or favorable, we can overrun them or just play progenitus and win, but once mother of runes lands, it becomes a completely nightmare, blocking our fatties and giving protection to guys such as reliquary, and equiped is just worse.

How did Aven Mindcensor perform here for you. This is where I found him to be a rock star. Mom sucks, and Masticore is good tech.

Edit: In my original board Null Rod was good here.

One other think that came up when talking at the 16 man about the deck. Someone suggested going a little bit heavier on the white to bring in Sun Titan. This was he can recur Knights, Channelers, and Mincensor I discounted it at the time because I wasn't interested in molesting the manabase, but know I'm wondering if there is something to it. Especially since I just realized that he could also Waste-lock (Wasteland recur) and Baloth enable.

He's also major CA as Vigilance is a form of CA in my mind, and he recurs stuff.

Just thoughts.

[hyperchord24]

I don't like summoning trap. It's a dead card until you hit six or a creature gets countered, then in games 2 and 3 they stop countering your creatures. Plus, I was having an issue with my trap getting countered as well against control decks. I'd rather have those spots dedicated to NO/prog. You're doing the same thing as the traps, except you're winning instead of dropping a cool creature. You can get 4 mana as fast as turn 3 and a turn 3 prog is better than a turn 1 or 2 titan/baloth. The only dead card is prog, but maybe a singleton Fauna Shaman may be in order. You can NO for other things if prog is in your hand or in play.

Not to mention it is a dead card game one against decks not packing counters (are there such decks nowadays?)

[soiber2000]

I just have lost my reply, WTF!

Well to sum up, I had the feeling that Aven always appeared a turn late for fighting Stoneforge and zeniths, that was annoying but maybe just bad luck.

The Eternal witness chain suggested by Maveric78f is something to consider, because if it works, it is nuts! But I am a bit skeptical.

Sun Titan is something I thought sometimes, but we have to change a little bit more the mana base, and so the deck, and we don't have Pernicious deed to lock as Nic Fit deck.

I played a single Fauna Shaman, and worked extremely well, shuffling Progentius or just picking the right creature for the moment.


I don't like summoning trap. It's a dead card until you hit six or a creature gets countered, then in games 2 and 3 they stop countering your creatures.

The trap is just why I am testing this deck. Paying 6 is not so hard with the last builds, and also I am testing with 2 Rofellos as well to consistently pay for them. But then, if they don't pack counters, you can side them out, but I think it is more usefull to have them main. You say they'll stop countering creatures, but if they do, you win, don't you realise? They don't have so much removal as we have threats.

[Bruticus]

I don't like summoning trap. It's a dead card until you hit six or a creature gets countered, then in games 2 and 3 they stop countering your creatures. Plus, I was having an issue with my trap getting countered as well against control decks. I'd rather have those spots dedicated to NO/prog. You're doing the same thing as the traps, except you're winning instead of dropping a cool creature.

This is good... right? The more stuff they counter the greater the odds of resolving a Natural Order, and if they aren't countering you're building the board and landing beats. Trap isn't completely dead either, you have a decent chance of ramping up to six as early as turn 3. Due to the ubiquitous nature of control a single Boseiju, Who Shelters All should be main.


One thing that keeps worrying me is decks that pack stoneforge and mother of runes. GW zenith is maybe 50% or favorable, we can overrun them or just play progenitus and win, but once mother of runes lands, it becomes a completely nightmare.

If we keep Birds and add a Bayou along with an Elves of Deep Shadow, Virtue's Ruin and Ashes to Ashes are options. Who cares if we lose a Mindcensor or two.


For that reason, I think that we need and answer to those decks. One thing could be Masticore. Another thing I came up is that a sigle Maze of ith have to be somewhere in the 75. With knight and titan we could have another answer to equipped guys and/or with protection. Another idea is Tower of the Magistrate to prevent equip.

Masticore sounds like a good all around answer, but don't forget about Phyrexian Metamorph. He can copy an opposing Progenitus or Emrakul as well as equipment. Scryb Ranger FTW. Not sure how I feel about Maze and Tower. Is a land toolbox really the right direction for the sideboard?

We have lots of mana and potential access to answers of any color, let's see what we can find. Lavalanche? Thornscape Master maybe looks iffy, but this deck could support him between dorks, Channelers and Scryb Ranger.


Two things here: 1 about Blue decks I think it would be good if we test 3-4 Eternal Witness in the board for the control MU. As Maveric78f mentioned earlier in this thread if you chain an Eternal Witness off a triggered Summoning Trap you can return trap to your hand and trap again. This will allow us to dig deeper, and possibly deeper until we can find Progenitus which is pretty cool.

One other think that came up when talking at the 16 man about the deck. Someone suggested going a little bit heavier on the white to bring in Sun Titan. This was he can recur Knights, Channelers, and Mincensor I discounted it at the time because I wasn't interested in molesting the manabase, but know I'm wondering if there is something to it. Especially since I just realized that he could also Waste-lock (Wasteland recur) and Baloth enable.

He's also major CA as Vigilance is a form of CA in my mind, and he recurs stuff.

Sun Titan looks good, and 3 ~ 4 Witness, 2 Sun Titan could make for sick recursion.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Alright Freggle, since you called me out in the format thread, here I am. Like Hollywood said, I don't spend too much time in N&D because it's very hard to take the majority of the threads here seriously. It seems that y'all are actually putting in the effort to test and get things done rather than just screw around and theorycraft though. With that, here are the first things I could think of:

1. This deck needs 4 Noble Hierarch. It is infinitely better than Llanowar Elves or Birds of Paradise.

2. As an aggro deck with a stable manabase AND Knight of the Reliquary, there is really no reason or excuse not to run 4 Wasteland. Sure, KOTR is a huge beater, but often the real reason it wins games is its ability to Waste-lock your opponents.

3. There should be at least one Qsali Pridemage in the main, to Zenith for. It's not like it's ever a dead draw.

4. If you run the full set of Wastelands and some fetches too, you have the option to play Terravore, which is huge and tramply.

5. WARNING : JANKINESS. Lotus Cobra is worth an experiment if you're packing fetches. It allows extremely explosive draws a la Mythic Conscription from last standard (Think turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 Cobra, fetch, Knight of the Reliquary, turn 3 fetch, 6-drop of your choice). I have no idea if it would actually be good enough.

[hyperchord24]

I like bop complimentary to hierarch b/c it can chump flyers, plus it's useful for multicolor green creatures when you don't have zenith. (Could you built freggle's deck without savannah? And even run things like spellbreaker behemoth?

I'd rather run bop, channelers and hierarch than the cobra, but it maybe worth a try in conjunction with the cards you mentioned

is quasali pridemage better than something like harmonic sliver? Really, if I need to tutor out artifact/enchantment hate, I'd want it to stick around as a beater.

[Freggle]

Alright Freggle, since you called me out in the format thread, here I am.

Thanks Admiral_Arzar. It wasn't intended as a call out. I quoted you to build a case that there perhaps is room to innovate in the format. Especially in one in which the meta MAY be fixed.


Like Hollywood said, I don't spend too much time in N&D because it's very hard to take the majority of the threads here seriously. It seems that y'all are actually putting in the effort to test and get things done rather than just screw around and theorycraft though.

Well we try. I intend to take this to another local tourney this Sat. So I'd like to get it as tight as we can by then.


With that, here are the first things I could think of:

1. This deck needs 4 Noble Hierarch. It is infinitely better than Llanowar Elves or Birds of Paradise.

Agreed.


2. As an aggro deck with a stable manabase AND Knight of the Reliquary, there is really no reason or excuse not to run 4 Wasteland. Sure, KOTR is a huge beater, but often the real reason it wins games is its ability to Waste-lock your opponents.

To be honest I only own two, but 4 would be better.


3. There should be at least one Qsali Pridemage in the main, to Zenith for. It's not like it's ever a dead draw.

I will test this tonight.


4. If you run the full set of Wastelands and some fetches too, you have the option to play Terravore, which is huge and tramply.

I've mulled this over before, but never tested it greatly. I will add this in tonight as well.


5. WARNING : JANKINESS. Lotus Cobra is worth an experiment if you're packing fetches. It allows extremely explosive draws a la Mythic Conscription from last standard (Think turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 Cobra, fetch, Knight of the Reliquary, turn 3 fetch, 6-drop of your choice). I have no idea if it would actually be good enough.

Has also crossed my mind, but the jankiness did ward me off until now. What would you consider cutting for them. Other mana dudes?

edit: It wouldn't be impossible to squeeze a tight Stoneforge Mystic / Batterskull package it either if we so choose.

[Bruticus]

Terravore's a good late game bomb and certainly not bad early game, but I'd much rather see an early Channelers or Knight, so it would be a one of. This decks version of card advantage is mana accelerators that do double duty as beatdown and/or combo enablers. On that note, Noble Hierarch is certainly better than Birds or Elves. Terravore is just big.

I do not like the idea Lotus Cobra in this build at all. We already have a good chance of ramping to six mana on turn 3 with Scryb Ranger/Channellers PLUS they can crack heads. Putting them in place of Scryb Rangers is just wrong. Ranger can't be bounced with Jace, laughs at fish, flies over heads to beat, enables landfall triggers, mana accels by itself or with Channelers/Knight, provides extra blockers... seriously. That said, I can totally see Cobras in a combo version running Ob Nixilis, The Fallen in the Baloths slot.

SFM.. okay, now you're getting greedy. I'm thinking Grove/Fires would be killer sideboard tech. It provides board control, a bit of face burn and even gets rid of pro-green creatures. With Scryb Ranger/Knight being tutorable we could get away with as little as one or two Groves. As an added bonus, it's on color.

A single Baru, Fist of Krosa would work as a tutorable overrun effect with Rangers/Knights, and I find myself thinking about Hornet Queen as a possible SB card in place of Titan against aggro/swarm and mono colored decks.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Thanks Admiral_Arzar. It wasn't intended as a call out. I quoted you to build a case that there perhaps is room to innovate in the format. Especially in one in which the meta MAY be fixed.

Has also crossed my mind, but the jankiness did ward me off until now. What would you consider cutting for them. Other mana dudes?

edit: It wouldn't be impossible to squeeze a tight Stoneforge Mystic / Batterskull package it either if we so choose.

The problem with cobra is there really isn't anything to cut, and it probably isn't that good anyway. Thus, the jankiness. SFM is certainly a possibility - it's really freaking good, and this deck can hardcast Batterskull very easily. It just depends on whether you want to go into heavier white or not. Playing SFM, Zenith, NO/Prog, Summoning Trap, and a bunch of other big dudes is probably greedy - I doubt it will all fit.


Terravore's a good late game bomb and certainly not bad early game, but I'd much rather see an early Channelers or Knight, so it would be a one of. This decks version of card advantage is mana accelerators that do double duty as beatdown and/or combo enablers. On that note, Noble Hierarch is certainly better than Birds or Elves. Terravore is just big.

SFM.. okay, now you're getting greedy. I'm thinking Grove/Fires would be killer sideboard tech. It provides board control, a bit of face burn and even gets rid of pro-green creatures. With Scryb Ranger/Knight being tutorable we could get away with as little as one or two Groves. As an added bonus, it's on color.

A single Baru, Fist of Krosa would work as a tutorable overrun effect with Rangers/Knights, and I find myself thinking about Hornet Queen as a possible SB card in place of Titan against aggro/swarm and mono colored decks.

Your argument on Terravore makes sense. Even if I ran it it would only be as a one-of to Zenith for, but this deck has other big cheap beaters. Grove/Fires is also greedy as heck. The issue is, does it actually solve any bad matchups? I could see it being good for sure, but I'm not sure it's worth the space. I would prefer Kamahl over Baru, but they both seem janky.

ZOMG FAUNA SHAMAN. Has anybody tested that thing? It turns spare mana accelerators into Baloths in the lategame, and also provides a way to get rid of a drawn Progenitus. I've been running it as a one-of to Zenith for in Hulk Rebirth combo, and it's pretty amazing.

Also, while they are antisynergistic with Summoning Trap, both Garruks sound like they could work here. The new one is especially stupid (free dudes every turn, and then draw large numbers of cards). They're worth testing, at the least.

EDIT: To expand on what I said earlier. I usually stay away from lists like this because I am a combo player by nature. This doesn't mean I don't play aggro, but as I am well aware of the destructive capabilities of fast combo (TES is my favorite deck in Legacy) I usually don't play decks that can't interact with it. The sideboard for this deck will need to pack some kind of combo hate, but I'm not exactly sure what ATM. Fast combo is at basically an all-time low right now, which makes things somewhat easier.

[Freggle]

I do not like the idea Lotus Cobra in this build at all. We already have a good chance of ramping to six mana on turn 3 with Scryb Ranger/Channellers PLUS they can crack heads. Putting them in place of Scryb Rangers is just wrong. Ranger can't be bounced with Jace, laughs at fish, flies over heads to beat, enables landfall triggers, mana accels by itself or with Channelers/Knight, provides extra blockers... seriously. That said, I can totally see Cobras in a combo version running Ob Nixilis, The Fallen in the Baloths slot.

A note on Mul Daya Channelers. I'm beginning to grow a little weary of them. More often than not I want Channelers to have the +3/+3 either to hold back my opponents troops or to keep my opponent on a short clock, and often times when watched closely they let me down at least 1 time a game, and that in many games is 1 time too many.

Now that we are also running 10 completely dead card on top cards (that we want to draw not shuffle away) it puts Channelers in a really bad spot.

When we added the 3 Natural Orders the decks MU against Zoo went from favorable to unfavorable. Channelers had become more inconsistent, and bolt fodder. PTE's all but force you to change your top deck to get us more mana that we desperately want, and their very fast aggro plan would often put us on a clock we could not compete with. This made beating Zoo just luck.

Since in many of the games I have played with the deck I just wanted channelers to be a big body I had taken to testing that slot with the unglamorous Leatherback Baloth to see how it would affect the deck.

I'd have to say in testing the consistency was a very welcomed. Leatherback now forces 2 bolts (or a block and a bolt) or a PTE. That little difference makes a big difference. ...also when your looking at a bad trap 7 you have to worry a lot less about what your going to get when you drop a leatherback.

I'd have to say (not surprisingly) taking out the Channelers did take out a good chunk of the mana explosiveness of the deck, but with the addition of Natural Order out primary mana target is now 4 not 6.

I only tested this against Zoo thus far, as I wanted to see what it would take to get this MU back to favorable, as last night I was sick of losing to it. This swap did do the trick I just wonder what it would do for other MU.

Is this the proper way to be testing things?


SFM.. okay, now you're getting greedy. I'm thinking Grove/Fires would be killer sideboard tech. It provides board control, a bit of face burn and even gets rid of pro-green creatures. With Scryb Ranger/Knight being tutorable we could get away with as little as one or two Groves. As an added bonus, it's on color.

A single Baru, Fist of Krosa would work as a tutorable overrun effect with Rangers/Knights, and I find myself thinking about Hornet Queen as a possible SB card in place of Titan against aggro/swarm and mono colored decks.

On SFM. What if we ran it in a "big guy" slot? ...I know it's not a big guy, but the big guys are there to be bombs not just big creatures. I tried it a little last night and I only hard casted Batterskull once as a win more though.

...the manabase / creature base is just fine to run it. ...and it could be an early game bomb and not just a weight in your hand as our big guy bomb can be. This also reduces the dependancy on Channeler mana.

I will edit this tonight with the list I ended the night with, I don't want to remember it wrong.

Edit: I was thinking Mental Misstep in the board to help against combo, Discard OR 1 drop removal (PTE's, STPs, or Bolts) heavy decks.

[hyperchord24]

As far as 3-drops are concerned, there's dungrove elder, which takes a wrath or deed effect to get rid of. EDIT: There's alway kitchen finks to fight zoo as well.

If 7 mana is attainable, how about simic skyswallower. Too much? We have channellers, hierarchs and bop to hard cast it and 4 GSZ and 4 traps. There's always NO as well in case our prog gets wrathed away (or is in hand).

[soiber2000]

Mul Daya Channelers is always a risk, and it is true that sometimes, once per match or so, sucks. But the replacement your are offering is good only in that matchup. I think it is something to decide in a full tested version with an open metagame. More often than not it helps to cast big things, but it is true that is not a reliable source of mana nor a beater. Maybe that's a reason why advocate to play with Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary .

Simic Sky Swallower is a great card, it would be switching Terastodon in my list as the second Order target, as it can be hardcasted also.

[hyperchord24]

^I think Terastodon is the 2nd NO target of choice b/c it doubles as removal. Simic doesn't do this. Not that I've tested ether. And in other decks I've never NO'ed for terastodon.

On the subject of the zoo machup, empyrial archangel might be a good NO target.

[dahcmai]

I'd kind of want to see a Dosan the Falling Leaf in this. Seems nice to turn off a bunch of things people like doing on your turn like countering, flashing in Cliques, and such.

[hyperchord24]

^Turns off our 0 costing traps.

[Freggle]

I'd kind of want to see a Dosan the Falling Leaf in this. Seems nice to turn off a bunch of things people like doing on your turn like countering, flashing in Cliques, and such.

There is a very interesting dichotomy to this suggestion.

Does it turn off traps? ...or could it force the issue for a trap?

If is does land sans trap your Natural Order is free to wreak it's havoc.

In games where it could not be countered it could give added protection to our beaters. In that someone could not block & bolt for extra damage.

In games where it could it would force a counter OR provide protection for orderer.

Interesting.

[Freggle]

Here is the list I ran last night. The list does not have the Nobles because I do not own them.

It seems really pretty good.

I just tested it a bit more on MWS outside of the Zoo. I ran into No RUG, and won 2-0. The addition of Stoneforge adds a new must counter.

I'll keep working on it.

// Lands
1 [R] Savannah
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
10 [TSP] Forest (4)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
3 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
1 [LRW] Vigor
1 [CFX] Progenitus
1 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
2 [M12] Llanowar Elves
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [ZEN] Rampaging Baloths
4 [WWK] Leatherback Baloth
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [OD] Terravore

// Spells
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [ZEN] Summoning Trap
3 [JGC] Natural Order
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith

[hyperchord24]

dosan is a must-counter creature, but game 1, if you zenith for it, they don't get to see what you're getting before they decide to counter it. Surprise!

[nexus blue]

Glad to see the addition of the Leatherbacks in place of the Mul Daya Channelers. I was running the Leatherbacks b/c I didn't have the Channelers and felt it was still a pretty strong deck.

You don't find you're getting too far away from your original idea for the basis of the deck by adding SFM and Batterskull? Don't get me wrong, it seems to fit pretty well in this deck, but the opening post of Mono-G madness was so inspiring!

[hyperchord24]

For those who have tested leatherback: Was there ever a situation where you would have rather had tarmogoyf?

I like channellers. A lot of the time, they don't do what I want them to do, but I still feel like I haven't tested them enough to realize their full potential. Also, I've been testing boggart ram gang and even wilt-leaf cavaliers in the 3 cc spot. I'm a sucker for creatures with abilities, especially in a deck that can tutor for creatures, but my interest is piqued with leatherback.

[nexus blue]

I haven't personally felt a lack of 'goyfs, but I have some Skinshifters in the build I mess around with. Thos things are great with their versatility.

[Qweerios]

If you want to use Leatherback Baloth, use Skinshifter instead. Seriously, this card is highly underrated in Legacy, especialy with Exalted mechanics.

I would really like to know what this deck has to offer over Maverick. It seems to me like this deck is a budget version of the best Legacy deck at the moment. If this is true, then it would be a huge contributing factor to this deck's success.

[hyperchord24]

Throw in some stps, missteps, utility lands and you'e there. I guess you could argue why play this over maverick, but this deck is fun to play.

[Freggle]

Glad to see the addition of the Leatherbacks in place of the Mul Daya Channelers. I was running the Leatherbacks b/c I didn't have the Channelers and felt it was still a pretty strong deck.


For those who have tested leatherback: Was there ever a situation where you would have rather had tarmogoyf?

I can't say with 100% certainty, but I can say with about 85% certainty the answer is no. I have been watching this slot closely not to see if I want to drop 1 or 2 NOT for a Tarmogoyf, but to see if the slot could be maximized with a second or third Terravore. So I have been watching the yards fairly closely. I do not think a Terravore nor a Tarmogoyf should be replaced for a 3rd or 4th Leatherback Baloth.


...Also, I've been testing boggart ram gang and even wilt-leaf cavaliers in the 3 cc spot. I'm a sucker for creatures with abilities...

I really like Wilt-leaf Cavaliers on paper, but I have not tested them. I think we may find the 4 power is worth it in the Leatherbacks, but I'm not sure.


You don't find you're getting too far away from your original idea for the basis of the deck by adding SFM and Batterskull? Don't get me wrong, it seems to fit pretty well in this deck, but the opening post of Mono-G madness was so inspiring!

Firstly, I do not want to steel the credit from novatinhu for the idea of a Mono-G deck it was his post that inspired my direction that seems to have accidentally hijacked the thread.

Secondly, I DO find that I am getting a little too far away from the original concept. I wasn't particularly proud of the addition of SFM, but the testing did prove it's worth. It should also be noted that I wasn't too happy about the NO Prog. addition as well, but it's one of those if you can't beat them join them. It certainly does not stop the rest of the deck being fun as well.

I tested SFM as a direct result of people discussing the status of the format in this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21873-How-healthy-is-the-format).

Many claim that Legacy is approaching a two deck format. SFM decks, and NO Prog decks. Now I think they are a little exaggerative, but I can not disagree that they are both fairly reliant win conditions. I can't help but point out that those are almost the exact same DECK. They run almost the same shell FoW and other permission to reach or exceed FoW count, and their win cons and support. In reading this I thought to myself in general an aggor deck could be very strong in this meta, and I felt good about this deck. (As I believe that aggo beats counter / Counter beats combo / and combo beats aggro.) ...but then I thought about it more after we added the NO Prog combo (which someone described perfectly as the equivalent of Tinker DSC in vintage) I thought we were even better because we have the best approach to their core strategies (Trap/aggro) and the same fast kill (NO Prog) to compete. ...but then I thought about it a bit more a few days later. What is you crammed both of the best known Legacy win cons into one deck and removed the permission; well that's how SFM got tested.

I'm not proud of it, it is pretty much a lazy mans test, but I hate to admit it is effective.


If you want to use Leatherback Baloth, use Skinshifter instead. Seriously, this card is highly underrated in Legacy, especialy with Exalted mechanics.

I would really like to know what this deck has to offer over Maverick. It seems to me like this deck is a budget version of the best Legacy deck at the moment. If this is true, then it would be a huge contributing factor to this deck's success.


Throw in some stps, missteps, utility lands and you'e there. I guess you could argue why play this over maverick, but this deck is fun to play.

Qweerios, Good to see you. I have to humbly admit I did not know about Maverick. Your right it is strikingly similar. It's at least says something good about our ability to pick quality stuff.

I'd have to respectfully disagree that it is a budget version of the best deck in Legacy. I own the vast majority of NO RUG (from my vintage days), and choose to brew this.

To me it's a better meta call as the Traps are amazing, and fun. I see your correlations, but to say any deck that runs NO Prog, is a wanna be NO RUG is to say that any Vintage deck that ran Tinker DSC was the same deck too. NO is just not restricted.

Edit: On Skinshifter. I'd be all over him if I didn't see all the bolts I have been seeing lately. Leatherback is in there to ward off bolts and get some hit in primarily.

[Freggle]

So today I took this deck to a local 16 man and went 2-1-1 to place 5th. (ouch top 4 didn't play out and drafted From the Vault: Legends)

Here is the exact list I played:

// Lands
1 Savannah
2 Dryad Arbor
3 Verdant Catacombs
10 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
3 Scryb Ranger
1 Vigor
1 Progenitus
1 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Rampaging Baloths
4 Leatherback Baloth
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Terravore

// Spells
1 Batterskull
4 Summoning Trap
3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Side Board:
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Phyrexian Metamorph

Match 1 : Combo Elves 2-0

G1: I turn 2 Leatherback Baloth then 3 Natural Order->Progenitus he has not response, and I swing the two following turns.

Board out 4 Summoning Trap board in 4 Swords to Plowshares

G2: Both our t1's are elf-offs. T2 I fetch a savannah, and drop a Stoneforge. He plays some elves, and I don't remember how, but he keeps me off forging in my Batterskull in next turn so I drop a Knight of the Reliquary. A few turns pass and the board develops. Neither of us have a clear path to victory ...until I top deck Natural Order but I drew Progenitus I grab a Rampaging Baloths and I start Knight of the Reliquary + Scryb Ranger + Rampaging Baloths the heck out of him. I make 5 4/4 on my turn, and make another 4 on his turn. Next few turns I keep building and swing over his green dudes.

Match 2: Goblins 2-1

G1: I turn 3 Natural Order (sacing a Dryad Arbor) with a leatherback already in play I grab Progenitus and race him to victory.

Board out 4 Summoning Trap for 4 Swords to Plowshares.

G2: My opponent goes T1 Lackey I play a Verdant Catacombs and I'm holding 3 Swords to Plowshares. T2 he attacks, and I STP Lackey. From there on out I'm drawing bad. He lands a T3 Blood Moon and puts a damper on my STP plan. I top deck a Stoneforge (before birds) and I'm looking at an all white hand and no white mana. He eventually swarms me but it's long and drawn out.

G3: No board change. I land an early Natural Order and win Progenitus.

Match 3: Goblins 1-1-1 (sucks)

G1: I loose to a terribly fast swarm. I think I T4 or T5'd a Progenitus but that was not fast enough.

G2: Since I was killed by Aether Vial and an extremely fast clock I decide to take a more aggressive control position G2.

-4 Summoning Trap -2 Rampaging Baloths -1 Terravore +4 Swords to Plowshares +4 Mental Misstep I know that is 61, but I didn't care to really scrutinize what creature to take out.

I play forest -> birds. He goes T1 Lackey I misstep it. T2 I play a knight. He tries Aether vial I misstep it. This gave me time to develop the board, but so did he. I keep swinging at him with the knight get some in, and some not. At the very end my knight was relegated to defense. I GSZ a second one out, but he double gemplalm's one and swings in to bring me to 4 leaving 1 blocker. He's at 8. My Knight after a dryad arbor chump block becomes a 9/9. I top deck a much needed STP. remove his 1 blocker raise his life total to 9 and swing in for lethal. I was in disbelief that I squeaked that one out.

G3: (No change in board) T1 he lackeys I have Mental Misstep in hand but I choose to let it go because I have a STP and a fetch. He tries to get in t2 I stp. He tries to drop a vial I misstep it. Turns pass the board develops. Time is called. I get a NO after I draw Proggy I NO for a Baloths, and start knighting -> fetch off again. Last turn he assembles the combo where he can Sac goblins and do 2 to me, and he get me to 4. so we tie. If time wasn't called this dude was getting over run. Oh well such is life.

Match 4: Affinity with Plating 0-2

I don't think I had a chance either game. Early plating (2) and no fliers = not cool. I wish I didn't drop Null Rod from my board. G1 I Natural Order T3, but if I grabbed Proggy I would have died to a plate flier. So I grabbed a Scryb to prolong the loss. In retrospect I should have grabbed Quasali but I didn't.

G2 Not much different.

All in all I had an awesome time, and people were into the deck. Sucks I just missed a prize to time though. ...oh well.

[Freggle]

So today I took this deck to a local 16 man and went 2-1-1 to place 5th. (ouch top 4 didn't play out and drafted From the Vault: Legends)

Here is the exact list I played:

// Lands
1 Savannah
2 Dryad Arbor
3 Verdant Catacombs
10 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
3 Scryb Ranger
1 Vigor
1 Progenitus
1 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Rampaging Baloths
4 Leatherback Baloth
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Terravore

// Spells
1 Batterskull
4 Summoning Trap
3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Side Board:
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Phyrexian Metamorph

Match 1 : Combo Elves 2-0

G1: I turn 2 Leatherback Baloth then 3 Natural Order->Progenitus he has not response, and I swing the two following turns.

Board out 4 Summoning Trap board in 4 Swords to Plowshares

G2: Both our t1's are elf-offs. T2 I fetch a savannah, and drop a Stoneforge. He plays some elves, and I don't remember how, but he keeps me off forging in my Batterskull in next turn so I drop a Knight of the Reliquary. A few turns pass and the board develops. Neither of us have a clear path to victory ...until I top deck Natural Order but I drew Progenitus I grab a Rampaging Baloths and I start Knight of the Reliquary + Scryb Ranger + Rampaging Baloths the heck out of him. I make 5 4/4 on my turn, and make another 4 on his turn. Next few turns I keep building and swing over his green dudes.

Match 2: Goblins 2-1

G1: I turn 3 Natural Order (sacing a Dryad Arbor) with a leatherback already in play I grab Progenitus and race him to victory.

Board out 4 Summoning Trap for 4 Swords to Plowshares.

G2: My opponent goes T1 Lackey I play a Verdant Catacombs and I'm holding 3 Swords to Plowshares. T2 he attacks, and I STP Lackey. From there on out I'm drawing bad. He lands a T3 Blood Moon and puts a damper on my STP plan. I top deck a Stoneforge (before birds) and I'm looking at an all white hand and no white mana. He eventually swarms me but it's long and drawn out.

G3: No board change. I land an early Natural Order and win Progenitus.

Match 3: Goblins 1-1-1 (sucks)

G1: I loose to a terribly fast swarm. I think I T4 or T5'd a Progenitus but that was not fast enough.

G2: Since I was killed by Aether Vial and an extremely fast clock I decide to take a more aggressive control position G2.

-4 Summoning Trap -2 Rampaging Baloths -1 Terravore +4 Swords to Plowshares +4 Mental Misstep I know that is 61, but I didn't care to really scrutinize what creature to take out.

I play forest -> birds. He goes T1 Lackey I misstep it. T2 I play a knight. He tries Aether vial I misstep it. This gave me time to develop the board, but so did he. I keep swinging at him with the knight get some in, and some not. At the very end my knight was relegated to defense. I GSZ a second one out, but he double gemplalm's one and swings in to bring me to 4 leaving 1 blocker. He's at 8. My Knight after a dryad arbor chump block becomes a 9/9. I top deck a much needed STP. remove his 1 blocker raise his life total to 9 and swing in for lethal. I was in disbelief that I squeaked that one out.

G3: (No change in board) T1 he lackeys I have Mental Misstep in hand but I choose to let it go because I have a STP and a fetch. He tries to get in t2 I stp. He tries to drop a vial I misstep it. Turns pass the board develops. Time is called. I get a NO after I draw Proggy I NO for a Baloths, and start knighting -> fetch off again. Last turn he assembles the combo where he can Sac goblins and do 2 to me, and he get me to 4. so we tie. If time wasn't called this dude was getting over run. Oh well such is life.

Match 4: Affinity with Plating 0-2

I don't think I had a chance either game. Early plating (2) and no fliers = not cool. I wish I didn't drop Null Rod from my board. G1 I Natural Order T3, but if I grabbed Proggy I would have died to a plate flier. So I grabbed a Scryb to prolong the loss. In retrospect I should have grabbed Quasali but I didn't.

G2 Not much different.

All in all I had an awesome time, and people were into the deck. Sucks I just missed a prize to time though. ...oh well.

[Freggle]

After play testing this deck quite a bit since the tournament I find the SFM mini package to be all but useless. It is very mana intensive, and fairly easily answered without U permission.

So that gives us 3 open slots again. Is anyone else still toying with this deck to help guide my newly re-opened slots?

Also I will be testing 1 additional fetch. I find that I am currently dropping Knight of the Reliquary T2 at a 3/3 and it all too commonly eats a bolt for my tastes. I'm hoping with an additional fetch we may be able to drop it t2 as a 4/4 to help it's survival percentage.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[nexus blue]

Freggle, I know I've said it once, but I have to push Skinshifter on you again. I only have a budget version of this deck b/c I don't have (and don't have an interest in having) the Natural Orders. I also need the KOTR, but I'll be picking those up.

Skinshifter seems too utilitarian to not be useful, plus he's another creature if you get a Trap off and a beater to match 'Goyfs. Anyways, that's my two cents. Congrats on your finish.

[Bruticus]

If maintaining early board presence is a problem try out Troll Ascetic and Silhana Ledgewalker. With all the equipment in the current meta Molder Slug looks sweet (Ooze might be better in certain situations) and Baloth Cage Trap is worth testing.

[novatinhu]

After a lot of time Im here to Update my list if anyone keep intrest in the deck:



// Lands
9 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Windswept Heath
1 Pendelhaven

// Creatures
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Skinshifter
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Dungrove Elder
3 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Viridian Zealot

// Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Dismember
3 Beast Within
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Lignify
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher