[SCD] Hymn to Tourach

[Nonex]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/fe/12.jpg http://magiccards.info/scans/en/fe/13.jpg http://magiccards.info/scans/en/fe/14.jpg http://magiccards.info/scans/en/fe/15.jpg


:b::b:
Sorcery
Target player discards two cards at random.

I know that posting all four versions could generate discussions about which art is better, but there's not a single one I like over the others. That's not the point of this thread anyway.

My experience with this card is very limited, since I rarely play it and only on MWS. On the other hand, I've had many Hymn spells cast against me in tournaments, and it's not that I enjoy it, but the general outcome is as random as the card itself suggests. It's just after repeatedly seeing my playset gathering dust in a box that I decided to stop for a moment and think about it.

Some discard spells see a lot of play in Legacy. First it was Duress, then Thoughtseize. Inquisition of Kozilek doesn't outclass any of the other two, but it sees a slight amount of play, either for budget reasons or as Thoughtseize 5-6. All of them have something in common: they are highly splashable, let you choose what to take, which is accepted to be clearly better than choosing at random, and can be used in decks like combo as disruption to protect whatever serious business comes after them.

Here's where Hymn seems to fall behind. According to tournament results, Hymn's mana cost relegates it to aggro-control decks with a strong black presence, and all of them seem to be proactive monoblack or Bx / Bxy decks that, apart from 4 Hymns, dedicate at least 4 more slots to additional discard effects, suggesting that Hymn alone is too weak, unlike its 1cc counterparts. Discarding at random is generally worse than choosing yourself, which would explain why the 1cc ones see more play. What they can't do, however, is generate card advantage, which Hymn does, and when it doesn't, it shouldn't matter anyway. But that doesn't totally speak in Hymn's favor, since there are cheap cards that also generate card advantage, like Standstill or Ancestral Vision, and there have been moments in Legacy's history where those cards or most decks with those cards have been terrible. We should compare them only to a certain point, though, because they don't generate card advantage the same way.

The last point that comes to my mind is that most Hymn players I've encountered play decks that should rather be called piles of good black cards. It looks like one can pack together 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Hymn, 4 Dark Confidant, 2-3 Umezawa's Jitte, 4 Tarmogoyf and/or 4 Stoneforge Mystic, some more splash stuff or more black cards like Sinkhole, 20 lands, and call it a deck. I don't consider them serious lists, though I may be wrong. Anyway, all this thinking, and the fact that there have been discussions about whether Mind Twist (an arguably stronger Hymn) is safe or not to unban, makes me raise some questions:

What place does Hymn to Tourach have in Legacy? What can it contribute to the format right now? Is it always played in the same kind of decks due to power limitations or due to a lack of innovation from players? Why is it always accompanied with other discard effects? Could it be that perhaps it's always been bad and we haven't noticed, or it's just that the current top decks are strong to it? What is limiting its presence the most: the metagame, its mana cost, its randomness, or the power of discard effects in general? Would it change things if it costed :1::b: instead?

I could write some more questions, but you see the point. Discuss.

[KobeBryan]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/fe/12.jpg http://magiccards.info/scans/en/fe/13.jpg http://magiccards.info/scans/en/fe/14.jpg http://magiccards.info/scans/en/fe/15.jpg



I know that posting all four versions could generate discussions about which art is better, but there's not a single one I like over the others. That's not the point of this thread anyway.

My experience with this card is very limited, since I rarely play it and only on MWS. On the other hand, I've had many Hymn spells cast against me in tournaments, and it's not that I enjoy it, but the general outcome is as random as the card itself suggests. It's just after repeatedly seeing my playset gathering dust in a box that I decided to stop for a moment and think about it.

Some discard spells see a lot of play in Legacy. First it was Duress, then Thoughtseize. Inquisition of Kozilek doesn't outclass any of the other two, but it sees a slight amount of play, either for budget reasons or as Thoughtseize 5-6. All of them have something in common: they are highly splashable, let you choose what to take, which is accepted to be clearly better than choosing at random, and can be used in decks like combo as disruption to protect whatever serious business comes after them.

Here's where Hymn seems to fall behind. According to tournament results, Hymn's mana cost relegates it to aggro-control decks with a strong black presence, and all of them seem to be proactive monoblack or Bx / Bxy decks that, apart from 4 Hymns, dedicate at least 4 more slots to additional discard effects, suggesting that Hymn alone is too weak, unlike its 1cc counterparts. Discarding at random is generally worse than choosing yourself, which would explain why the 1cc ones see more play. What they can't do, however, is generate card advantage, which Hymn does, and when it doesn't, it shouldn't matter anyway. But that doesn't totally speak in Hymn's favor, since there are cheap cards that also generate card advantage, like Standstill or Ancestral Vision, and there have been moments in Legacy's history where those cards or most decks with those cards have been terrible. We should compare them only to a certain point, though, because they don't generate card advantage the same way.

The last point that comes to my mind is that most Hymn players I've encountered play decks that should rather be called piles of good black cards. It looks like one can pack together 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Hymn, 4 Dark Confidant, 2-3 Umezawa's Jitte, 4 Tarmogoyf and/or 4 Stoneforge Mystic, some more splash stuff or more black cards like Sinkhole, 20 lands, and call it a deck. I don't consider them serious lists, though I may be wrong. Anyway, all this thinking, and the fact that there have been discussions about whether Mind Twist (an arguably stronger Hymn) is safe or not to unban, makes me raise some questions:

What place does Hymn to Tourach have in Legacy? What can it contribute to the format right now? Is it always played in the same kind of decks due to power limitations or due to a lack of innovation from players? Why is it always accompanied with other discard effects? Could it be that perhaps it's always been bad and we haven't noticed, or it's just that the current top decks are strong to it? What is limiting its presence the most: the metagame, its mana cost, its randomness, or the power of discard effects in general? Would it change things if it costed :1::b: instead?

I could write some more questions, but you see the point. Discuss.

There really isn't much to discuss about. Hymn can win you games. it sets the player 2 turns back. or making them mull to 5.

Its the strongest black card in the game in legacy, with the exception of bob maybe.

[Greenpoe]

It's "Target player takes two mulligans." In the late game, it's unconditional discard, whereas Duress or Inquisition might miss and Thoughtseize costs valuable life.

[makochman]

The last point that comes to my mind is that most Hymn players I've encountered play decks that should rather be called piles of good black cards. It looks like one can pack together 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Hymn, 4 Dark Confidant, 2-3 Umezawa's Jitte, 4 Tarmogoyf and/or 4 Stoneforge Mystic, some more splash stuff or more black cards like Sinkhole, 20 lands, and call it a deck. I don't consider them serious lists, though I may be wrong.

Call me picky but Dark Ritual and Sinkhole are not played anymore. Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox and Vindicate have all but replaced them. And what you're describing should be called a Junk, or goodstuff deck.

Hymn has been around for ages, and a lot of people seem to think that after they get hit by a Hymn, they're going to lose. That alone makes it it a strong card. It dodges Mental Misstep. The random discard isn't such a bad thing, since it means it can hit land.

[Malchar]

I've always been a fan of mono-black, and hymn is basically a staple. However, I do get the strong impression that many people don't think it's very good. I can kind of see why. In my testing, I have found that playing hymn on turn 2 is much stronger on the draw than it is on the play. This can become much clearer when examining a mirror match especially with dark ritual. The less cards that they have in their hand when you cast the hymn, generally the better it will be.

For example, in a mirror match, if player A goes swamp, dark rit, duress, hymn, they will have 3 cards left in hand. Their hymn hit 2 of player B's 6 cards (after duress, or 7 before duress). If player B then plays their own hymn (topdeck or whatever), then it will hit 2 of player A's 3 cards remaining. This gives you a much better chance of hitting valuable cards or threats rather than chaff like dark ritual or moxen. This analogy extends particularly well against any deck (not necessarily the mirror match) so long as they are using moxen.

Anyway, I guess my point is that perhaps people are misplaying the card by casting it too early. If you cast it later, it significantly increases the chance of hitting better cards (not land). In fact, using a dark ritual or mox to accelerate into a hymn is frequently a loss of virtual card advantage. The ritual or mox puts you at -1, then the hymn means you break even. However, since you're using acceleration, it's still early-game, so it's extremely likely that the opponent has a lot of cards in their hand, and you have about a 50% chance of hitting one of their land, cantrips, or otherwise worthless cards. This means that you actually end up with -1 in virtual card advantage.

It's also worth noting that if you combine it with sinkhole and vindicate, you might want to hit land. However, having played against this style of deck many times, I find that mulling aggressively into any hand with 4+ land leads to an easy victory.

[wcm8]

Hymn, hymn, I win.

An aggro control shell can use removal and counterspells to deal with whatever it doesn't hit. It can be absolutely devastating, especially turn 2 on the play. At worst, it will make them burn a counterspell. It's a very proactive card that works wonders in the right deck.

[Rizso]

Hymn is one of the few cheap 2 for 1 cards there is. Love geting one of turn one with a mox diamond or a chrome mox.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

What place does Hymn to Tourach have in Legacy? What can it contribute to the format right now? Is it always played in the same kind of decks due to power limitations or due to a lack of innovation from players? Why is it always accompanied with other discard effects? Could it be that perhaps it's always been bad and we haven't noticed, or it's just that the current top decks are strong to it? What is limiting its presence the most: the metagame, its mana cost, its randomness, or the power of discard effects in general? Would it change things if it costed instead?
The power level of most cards fluctuates depending on what other cards are seeing play. BB is pretty bad by itself because it's color-intensive in a color where all the other best cards are combo enablers, but Hymn's effect is something an aggro/ aggro-control deck wants. Hymns's effect is powerful enough to play black for outside a combo deck, though, but only when Hymn is good. Right now, Jace, Standstill and Vision are all popular, which all match up favorably against Hymn. When the popularity of those cards fades because people play Show & Tell or Wild Nacatl (cards that match up favorably against the aforementioned blue cards), Hymn will get better. And so it goes.

[Greenpoe]

I've always been a fan of mono-black, and hymn is basically a staple. However, I do get the strong impression that many people don't think it's very good. I can kind of see why. In my testing, I have found that playing hymn on turn 2 is much stronger on the draw than it is on the play. This can become much clearer when examining a mirror match especially with dark ritual. The less cards that they have in their hand when you cast the hymn, generally the better it will be.

For example, in a mirror match, if player A goes swamp, dark rit, duress, hymn, they will have 3 cards left in hand. Their hymn hit 2 of player B's 6 cards (after duress, or 7 before duress). If player B then plays their own hymn (topdeck or whatever), then it will hit 2 of player A's 3 cards remaining. This gives you a much better chance of hitting valuable cards or threats rather than chaff like dark ritual or moxen. This analogy extends particularly well against any deck (not necessarily the mirror match) so long as they are using moxen.

Anyway, I guess my point is that perhaps people are misplaying the card by casting it too early. If you cast it later, it significantly increases the chance of hitting better cards (not land). In fact, using a dark ritual or mox to accelerate into a hymn is frequently a loss of virtual card advantage. The ritual or mox puts you at -1, then the hymn means you break even. However, since you're using acceleration, it's still early-game, so it's extremely likely that the opponent has a lot of cards in their hand, and you have about a 50% chance of hitting one of their land, cantrips, or otherwise worthless cards. This means that you actually end up with -1 in virtual card advantage.
Playing it early has different merits, like knocking a land out of a 2-land hand, or hitting removal so your Bob will stick, or just playing it when they're islands are tapped so they can't Snare it. But when choosing between whether to play Bitterblossom or Hymn first, that's a difficult choice depending on which you would rather have eat countermagic, and the strength of an early BB.

[DemonicTutor]

Imo Hymn To Tourach it's a pretty strong card in aggro-control decks which splashes black as Rock, Pikula, Junk... It allows you in the early game take at least a counter from opp. if he/she has got a good hand with gold nuts or a bad hand 4 ex. just one/two lands too necessary to do their best. In the mid-late game becomes a great control card, because could protect your condition win/removal casting it first forcing your opp. discard their counter/removal. I've got no doubt about it power against combo deck also that beat them very painfully.

[Purgatory]

I'm personally a huge fan of Hymn in Team America, and right now I wouldn't dream of playing less than 4, although I don't play any other discard effects. There is simply no better start in the deck than T1 Stifle, T2 Hymn, T3 Goyf. In matches where you resolve two it is almost a guaranteed win unless they topdeck removal for each and every one of your threats.

However, as a card, I despise Hymn, because it adds yet another chance element to the game with the random discard, and by design I think it is highly unfair. Even with the BB manacost, it is still a random two-for-one, which can sometimes seal games straight away.

[bruizar]

Hymn is one of the few cheap 2 for 1 cards there is. Love geting one of turn one with a mox diamond or a chrome mox.

Sign in Blood is also a 2 for 1 card, yet doesn't see play. Night's Whisper, which is much more color friendly, also doesn't see play.

Hymn to Tourach is not good because of "Card Advantage". It breaks parity, but it's not card-advantage. The reason why Hymn to Tourach is good is because it breaks down a player's lines of play by discarding cards. Good players mulligan a hand if there is no obvious path to victory in their hand. Hymn to Tourach doesn't attack cards in hand, it attacks the opponent's path to victory upon which he kept his hand, instead of opted to mulligan.
-
This is most obvious against combo decks, where the path to victory revolves either around chaining a bunch of spells into a big win with the Storm mechanic, or by assembling mana, mana-cheat and a Threat. (mana-cheat = Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Through the Breach, Grim Monolith, Natural Order, Eureka, Polymorph, Dream Halls, etc.).

These decks rely heavily on sculpting a winning hand through cantrips like Preordain, Ponder and Brainstorm. They do not care about card advantage, but about assembling the win (Not card advantage, nor card quality). Hymn to Tourach nullifies the time and mana spent on cantrips by (potentially) discarding the different factors required for a combo deck to win by going through the motions. This is also why in combo decks, you often see Misdirection. This card is a great tool to protect your path to victory while destroying the opponent's.

[.nemesis]

Why is it always accompanied with other discard effects?

When I have an opener with both effects on it, I use the targeted discard to make sure my Hymn hits or is as devastating as I want it to be. If my opponent is holding Sensei's Divining Top or any manipulation/draw spell, I take it away and then Hymn him into oblivion.

Hymn in a vacuum is difficult to evaluate because it really shines when drawn in multiples. T1 Duress (take your counter) T2&T3 Hymn is absolutely savage against any deck wants cards in hand (e.g. not Dredge). Putting your opponent into topdeck mode from the midgame on wins games. It also doesn't get bad as the game progresses like Duress effects - if your opponent tries to rebuild you just empty their hand again.

Long story short, Hymn has its place in Legacy. It's been there for ages and for good reasons. Granted, discard is a rather weak strategy if you opponent has draw spells of the same quality, but in my limited experience emptying the opposing hand on Turn 3 is always a strong strategy. If you stick a Confidant (or similar things, like a Bitterblossom) while doing so, you're miles ahead when your opponent stabilizes.

[bruizar]

Hymn in a vacuum is difficult to evaluate because it really shines when drawn in multiples. T1 Duress (take your counter) T2&T3 Hymn is absolutely savage against any deck wants cards in hand (e.g. not Dredge). Putting your opponent into topdeck mode from the midgame on wins games. It also doesn't get bad as the game progresses like Duress effects - if your opponent tries to rebuild you just empty their hand again.


This isn't why Hymn to Tourach is strong. Topdecking 1 Natural Order with a Misty Rainforest in play can destroy you. You've done nothing turn 1, 2 and 3, which means on the 4th turn I can do whatever I like (Jace/Moat/Natural Order/Elspeth). Discarding 3 cards to take 5, by committing the first 3 turns isn't that good of a strategy. Just 1 Hymn to Tourach could have destroyed the path to victory, and the rest would have been overkill. The opportunity cost of not going after your own path to victory is too high. I'd rather have 1 Hymn to Tourach and 2 cards that are more relevant to my own game plan.

An example of what I consider a better start would be turn 1 Aether Vial, turn 2 Hymn to Tourach. Your opponent now has to restock his hand with business, which takes time. Aether Vial becomes incrementally more useful the more time goes by, and by the time your opponent has relevant beefcakes, you're already swarming the board with threats.

[Mr. Safety]

Hymn is a 2-for-1 in legacy, which is rare to say the least. I could count on 1 hand the cards that could viably get you a 2-for-1 effect in legacy (Pernicious Deed, Firespout, possibly Engineered Explosives, possibly Maelstrom Pulse, occasionally Echoing Truth) I'm not counting cards like Jace or Mystic, as the 2-for-1 takes longer to achieve. I'm talking about 2 effects for 1 card, right away. I know I'm missing a few, but I think you get the point. One card, 2 powerful effects.

Think about what it can do when supported by blue, and think about how brutal it can be if your opponent even mulliganed ONCE before starting the game. Turn 1 Inquisition of Kozilek, turn 2 Hymn to Tourach is just back-breaking to almost any deck (save Dredge and possibly Reanimator) Now back those plays up with Daze, Mental Misstep, and Force of Will. Follow that up with a big dude or Jace and you have essentially won the game, it's just a matter of time.

There's a reason Team America works hard to squeeze that :b::b: card into it's 3-color greedy mana-base...when it happens, fireworks go off.

[Richard Cheese]

I think Hymn is one of the biggest double-edged swords in the game. Sometimes it's nuts and hits everything relevant and just swings the game on the spot. Othertimes it completely whiffs, or Brainstorm hides all the goodies, or you top deck it when you're staring down a bunch of fatties.

[Mr. Safety]

I think Hymn is one of the biggest double-edged swords in the game. Sometimes it's nuts and hits everything relevant and just swings the game on the spot. Othertimes it completely whiffs, or Brainstorm hides all the goodies, or you top deck it when you're staring down a bunch of fatties.

I've typically found it to be good at any stage in the game. Brainstorm hiding the goodies is rough, but you should be playing your OWN Brainstorms to avoid bad top-decks in the mid-late game.

[Tourach]

As a long time pox-player I've hated Hymn to Tourach against redundant decks: especially Zoo and to a lesser degree tribal decks. The exception here is obviously Burn. It seems I always waste my turn doing nothing (relevant) while my opponent is playing the same spells he or she just discarded. Usually against zoo turn three is to late to start interacting with his or her creatures. The more complex a deck gets (that means to me: the more key spells are involved) the more devastating Hymn is to it: especially combo and show and tell off the top of my head.

That is why I like Hymn in Team America more than in decks without counters: I do still have the ability to interact, misstep Nacatl, Force Goyf etc... Plus, it can support the mana denial strategy, or remove their removal, which is key in Team America. But, as has been mentioned before, the randomness of the card can be frustrating.

That being said, Hymn (and the targeted discard) is one of the few ways of winning with monoblack against certain decks like Stax, Burn.

[mcfarland]

Would it change things if it costed :1::b: instead?

Most folks have answered well enough, but I just wanted to add that if Hymn was :1::b:, a black splash for Hymn would be as common as a green splash was a few years ago.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Most folks have answered well enough, but I just wanted to add that if Hymn was :1::b:, a black splash for Hymn would be as common as a green splash was a few years ago.

Holy God. If Hymn was 1B I have to assume it would have been banned at some point or be complained about to no end. On a related note I wish WotC would be less willing to print these killer 2 drops at 1X. I mean Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic are all cards that get a lot more fair if they are double costed and not infinitely splashable.

[Rizso]

Making good Splashable cards is what keeps formats interesting and keeping the format evolving. But a Hymn at 1B wouldnt be one of thoes cards :P

[Mr. Safety]

As a long time pox-player I've hated Hymn to Tourach against redundant decks: especially Zoo and to a lesser degree tribal decks. The exception here is obviously Burn. It seems I always waste my turn doing nothing (relevant) while my opponent is playing the same spells he or she just discarded. Usually against zoo turn three is to late to start interacting with his or her creatures. The more complex a deck gets (that means to me: the more key spells are involved) the more devastating Hymn is to it: especially combo and show and tell off the top of my head.

Discard, on a fundamental level, has always been bad against dedicated aggro decks. If I were you, I'd be siding my Hymns out games 2+3 vs Zoo/gobbos for board control elements (Perish, Black Sun's Zenith, Doom Blade, Smother, Go for the Throat, Diabolic Edict...you get the picture)