[Let's Bitch About] Show and Tell

[Cthuloo]

I think it's a really shortsighted, actually. Hive Mind is criminally underplayed right now, and was during all of those tournaments. If noone plays the best deck in the format, can it win? No. Does it make it any less the best deck? No. The prospect of the best deck being underplayed might seem impossible to many, but it's actually pretty likely, imo. If 15% of the room was playing the deck, which is what Merfolk usually brings in, than I'd expect it to do better than Merfolk does on average. Combo decks than can support PoN are silly!

So we've arrived to the point that we have to ban cards before they put up results? This looks a bit crazy to me.

[menace13]

So we're arrived to the point that we have to ban cards before they put up results? This looks a bit crazy to me.

Crazy?!! No, It's worse than that, It's silly!1111

[alderon666]

Can someone link a post showing the Storm/Reanimator numbers in SCG top 16s pre-banning of Mystical Tutor?

I'll dare to say that their numbers were actually worse than those... and we all know what happened.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Can someone link a post showing the Storm/Reanimator numbers in SCG top 16s pre-banning of Mystical Tutor?

I'll dare to say that their numbers were actually worse than those... and we all know what happened.

Yeah, the biggest abortion of WOTC policy since the reserved list. The article released to "explain" the banning still makes me want to commit acts of unspeakable violence.


So we've arrived to the point that we have to ban cards before they put up results? This looks a bit crazy to me.

That's basically what happened with Mystical Tutor. Neither deck was dominating the format, but they thought it COULD happen, and so it got banned.

[menace13]

Can someone link a post showing the Storm/Reanimator numbers in SCG top 16s pre-banning of Mystical Tutor?

I'll dare to say that their numbers were actually worse than those... and we all know what happened.
As of December 2009 starting with St.Louis open all top 16's

St. Louis- 1 Reanimator
LA- no M Tutors in top 16
Dallas/Fort Worth- 1 Ad Naus
Richmond, VA- 2 Reanimator
Indianapolis-2 Reanimator
Orlando- 1 Reanimator
Atlanta- 1 Ad Naus, 4 Reanimator, 1 Show Tell(Go Go ATL! Now thems be some players)
Philly- 1 Ad Naus(Elias took this one down!)
Seattle- 2 Reanimator, 1 Ad Naus(last open before ban)

12 Reanimator
4 Ad Naus

12 may seem like a lot, but once again the award to most placings -during that span-in top 16 goes to... Merfolk.
Can we ban Vial now?

[Richard Cheese]

As of December 2009 starting with St.Louis open all top 16's

St. Louis- 1 Reanimator
LA- no M Tutors in top 16
Dallas/Fort Worth- 1 Ad Naus
Richmond, VA- 2 Reanimator
Indianapolis-2 Reanimator
Orlando- 1 Reanimator
Atlanta- 1 Ad Naus, 4 Reanimator, 1 Show Tell(Go Go ATL! Now thems be some players)
Philly- 1 Ad Naus(Elias took this one down!)
Seattle- 2 Reanimator, 1 Ad Naus(last open before ban)

12 Reanimator
4 Ad Naus

12 may seem like a lot, but once again the award to most placings -during that span-in top 16 goes to... Merfolk.
Can we ban Vial Island now?

Fixed that for you!

[SMR0079]

I strongly endorse this post and/or line of thinking / worldview.

Well done.

Dido

Combo beats aggro - get over it.

[Koby]

I do agree that the pre-emptive banning of Mystical Tutor has done more harm to the way Legacy is viewed by it's participants than anything done subsequently with regards to balancing the format with the Ban List.

It shocked me when I heard about the news (while on vacation no less). I think it was short sighted, and is justification for aggressive balancing of the metagame without much room for self-correcting deckbuilders to adjust.

[Fuzzy]

Combo beats aggro - get over it.

And control beats combo, except when they play more counters than you. Oh wait...

[SMR0079]

And control beats combo, except when they play more counters than you. Oh wait...

That's funny - At SCG Seattle I beat 4 out of 6 of my Hive Mind opponents with NO RUG which isn't exactly the most controling deck. Those were my only losses for the day. I played hghly skilled Hive Mind players in teh Top 8 eventually lossing to Ben Scwartz in the finals after I made a mistake game 1 and he nut drew me game 3.

I probably have more experience playing against top level HiveMind players in actual events then just about anyone, so I understand how powerful the deck is. However, one of the reasons it's been beating the control decks is that their spells get round both Mistep and Spell Snare.

IF you want your control deck to beat Hive Mind simply play Counterspells, Daze, Stiffle, CLique, Jace, more importantly REB. Cut your crypts for Extractions.

Both Hive Mind and NO RUG are taking advantage of the current popularity of situation al counters in control.

Calls for banning are almost always the scrubs way out. Real men view a challenge as something to overcome, a puzzle to solve, an oppurtunity to be had, and the source of evolution.

[Tiago_B.]

They are still building theme decks and choosing cards by the picture, that kind of shit. Anyhow, to get to my point, it doesn't really matter what deck I beat them with; aggro, combo, control. No matter what, my deck is unfair and ruins the game of Magic. Something to think about. It's not the combo deck that makes Magic unfun, it's your inability to adapt to it that makes Magic unfun.

This. I actually had a friend (still learning, but he had a good notion of which decks i had) call me to know which deck i had with me before i got to his place (i had affinity) and then he made a GW aggro packing 12 disenchant effects maindeck.
He lost anyway, because his deck sucked, then i was the noob for having a deck that was too strong. And that came from a guy that made a deck full of disenchants and naturalizes to play against me.

If something was to be banned, i'd choose pact of negation. Or just all the pacts, they suck. And it wouldnt affect Legacy much, those cards are lightly played outside of Hive Mind.

[[sic]]

Calls for banning are almost always the scrubs way out. Real men view a challenge as something to overcome, a puzzle to solve, an opportunity to be had, and the source of evolution.

Sig'd

[Pippin]

We at this again?

Even the SCG data (which is not the whole legacy scene) disproves this thread. Not to mention all the tournaments around the globe that can be found on www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/.

I'll give you a hint. Blue decks have biggest problems against Hive Mind since they try to interact just with counters and those are often not enough. Play something else? Last SCG tournament (Pittsburgh) almost perfectly underlines decks that can cope with Hive Mind. I'd also add rock variants in the mix with Knight of the Reliquary + Karakas to get rid of Emrakul and hand disruption + Wasteland to directly interact with Hive Mind.

Also, while we're here - I hate playing against tribal decks. Ban vial plx? ...

[evanmartyr]

So, I'm a tad confused by Hive Mind. What are the possible ways to beat it, assuming your opponent has Hive Mind in play and has cast a Pact.

Angel's Grace (or any similar effects I'm unaware of), wasting their Pact on you and forcing them to attempt to pay for their own.

Stifle, countering "your" Pact trigger on your upkeep, forcing them to pay for their own.

Possibly Flusterstorm? Despite witnessing that big rules kerfluffle at the last SCG I'm still unsure how this works out.

The new M12 Artifact that ends your turn, with "your" Pact effect on the stack during upkeep.

Nix? I guess? Even if they copy it, the copy of your own Pact is going to be countered.

While this list ignores disruption pre-Hive Mind in play, it does seem like there are very few answers to the deck, and of the ones I could think of, few have any real benefit outside of the Hive Mind matchup, meaning they pretty much have to be sideboarded. On top of cheating a hard-to-beat effect into play, Show and Tell dodges hate, and provides access to a very strong Plan B. The closest thing to Show and Tell I can think of is Channel, but with the added benefit of being blue, being splashable, not costing life, and yielding (effectively) colored mana. Channel is pretty solidly banned, and has been for a long time (forever, in Legacy, I think). Given how favorable this comparison is to Show and Tell, I would be surprised if it remains legal.

On top of all this logical discussion, it's just not a "fun" card to play against. Obviously, this doesn't have a ton of relevance in terms of the banlist, but when someone Show and Tells, outside of mirror matches or against the very few decks that have a similar plan, it's a one-sided effect.

Opponent: Show and Tell?
Me: Resolves...
Opponent: Emrakul!
Me: JTMS? Oh wait, no, that doesn't work...well...Tundra then.
Opponent: GG!
Me: yeahhh....

I mean sure, you may want to accelerate the "usual" way against Turbo-Eldrazi, but that deck is so seldom seen that it may as well not exist.

[Pippin]

So, I'm a tad confused by Hive Mind. What are the possible ways to beat it, assuming your opponent has Hive Mind in play and has cast a Pact.


Daze, spell pierce? You counter your own copy of the pact, but need to have lands untapped to nullify their copy of daze/spell pierce.

Also cursecatcher. This is all of course if Hive Mind actually managed to resolve.

[Gheizen64]

Nix is also a super narrow, but efficient card. I see no reason to play it over stifle though.

[Hanni]

A way to beat an active Hive Mind that proceeds to play a Pact of the Titan? Pay 4R? Maybe that's not possible for some decks, but Aggro Loam, NO RUG, Dragon Stompy, any deck with Birds of Paradise...

Sure, it's possible that they cast the Pact before you have 4R, or they have multiple Pacts. But I've actually paid for the 4R on several occasions now. SNT Hivemind does not ALWAYS have the turn 2 Show and Tell -> Hive Mind -> Pact draw.

That's probably the worst way to deal with an active Hive Mind, but if you're deck doesn't have a way to interact with the opponent and prevent them from dropping a Hive Mind in the first place, that's probably one of your better options (for the decks capable paying 4R anyway).

[keys]

Possibly Flusterstorm? Despite witnessing that big rules kerfluffle at the last SCG I'm still unsure how this works out.


Flusterstorm works. You cast it targeting your Pact copy and put the storm copies on the stack targeting it as well. Hive mind will copy Flusterstorm for your opponent, but the Storm effect won't trigger because they didn't cast it.

[kiblast]

envelop

[Richard Cheese]

A way to beat an active Hive Mind that proceeds to play a Pact of the Titan? Pay 4R? Maybe that's not possible for some decks, but Aggro Loam, NO RUG, Dragon Stompy, any deck with Birds of Paradise...

Sure, it's possible that they cast the Pact before you have 4R, or they have multiple Pacts. But I've actually paid for the 4R on several occasions now. SNT Hivemind does not ALWAYS have the turn 2 Show and Tell -> Hive Mind -> Pact draw.

That's probably the worst way to deal with an active Hive Mind, but if you're deck doesn't have a way to interact with the opponent and prevent them from dropping a Hive Mind in the first place, that's probably one of your better options (for the decks capable paying 4R anyway).

Why would they cast any Pact that they can see you could pay for?

[Hanni]

Why would they cast any Pact that they can see you could pay for?


Isn't that the point?

Oh, and since I mentioned Dragon Stompy, I think it's also worth mentioning how much a turn 1 Chalice of the Void hurts Hive Mind. Sure, Show and Tell costs 2U, but a 3-cards-in-hand combo is going to have a rough time assembling without the insane amounts of cantrips that deck runs. Trinisphere is also pretty good at slowing down Pacts the last time I checked. But since everyone claims that Dragon Stompy isn't a real deck, I'll leave well enough alone.

[Koby]

Isn't that the point?

Oh, and since I mentioned Dragon Stompy, I think it's also worth mentioning how much a turn 1 Chalice of the Void hurts Hive Mind. Sure, Show and Tell costs 2U, but a 3-cards-in-hand combo is going to have a rough time assembling without the insane amounts of cantrips that deck runs. Trinisphere is also pretty good at slowing down Pacts the last time I checked. But since everyone claims that Dragon Stompy isn't a real deck, I'll leave well enough alone.

Hurts? Perhaps to a small degree, but it's not very effective. I've lost games where I cast Mental Misstep (= CotV @ 1) on each cantrip. 3 card combo is still surprisingly efficient and easy to assemble when luck is involved. Trinisphere is still tits however.

[menace13]

You can Chalice for 1 and Trinisphere till you bleed from paper cuts, it is nothing more than a traffick cone in front of a Mack truck. Intuition costs 3 as does SnT. Grim monolith and Sol lands help power out Emrakul against Dragon Stompy and game is over. Only thing Trini does is make Hive Mind players save 6 mana before they SnT then kill you with a Pact(That's 3 lands and a Grim)

[Hanni]

That's assuming Dragon Stompy isn't smacking the opponent in the face. A couple beats on the table is a clock that a SNT Hive Mind player is going to have trouble racing if they cannot sculpt their hand with cantrips and cast Pacts for free.

Why does everyone assume the SNT player is able to drop Hive Mind w/ Pacts on turns 2-3 every game?

[menace13]

Hanni, it does not have to be even turn 5- and that is enough time to Intuition-, if Emrakul comes down againt D Stompy they have no outs.

[Hanni]

If Emrakul comes down against D Stompy, they still have 1 more attack step.

If the D Stompy player drops a turn 1 Chalice or turn 1 Trinisphere, it's going to take the SNT player alot longer to assemble their combo than normal. D Stompy can sometimes end the game by turn 5.

Regardless, I'm not even really advocating for D Stompy. I'm not a big fan of that deck. All I was getting at, was that even random Tier 2 decks can beat SNT Hive Mind without going out of their way to MD hate. and I'm sure D Stompy could bring in Thorn of Amethyst or something like that postboard to further improve the matchup, if they really wanted to.

Either way, I've played against SNT Hive Mind with 4 different decks now (several times with two of the decks), and I haven't lost to it*. One was a G/B Rock deck, one was a UBg Control deck, one was a UWb Esperblade deck, and the other one was URg Blue Zoo deck. I am thoroughly unconvinced with all of the whining going on in this thread. If anyone wants to call out the player skill of my opponent's, I'd like to call out the simplicity of playing the deck.

*I'm talking about full 2/3 matches, not single games. I've lost a few games to SNT Hive Mind, but I've yet to lose a match.

However, at 14 pages long and like 15 responses from me, I think this thread has turned into a dead horse. I'm done beating it, Mr. Jackson.

[ajfennewald]

My first play against hive mind involved me playing zoo and out goldfishing it one game and karkasing an emrakul. the other. I have also beat it with a counter heavy blue zoo deck. I would say it seems good but not absurdly so.

[KobeBryan]

If Emrakul comes down against D Stompy, they still have 1 more attack step.

If the D Stompy player drops a turn 1 Chalice or turn 1 Trinisphere, it's going to take the SNT player alot longer to assemble their combo than normal. D Stompy can sometimes end the game by turn 5.

Regardless, I'm not even really advocating for D Stompy. I'm not a big fan of that deck. All I was getting at, was that even random Tier 2 decks can beat SNT Hive Mind without going out of their way to MD hate. and I'm sure D Stompy could bring in Thorn of Amethyst or something like that postboard to further improve the matchup, if they really wanted to.

Either way, I've played against SNT Hive Mind with 4 different decks now (several times with two of the decks), and I haven't lost to it*. One was a G/B Rock deck, one was a UBg Control deck, one was a UWb Esperblade deck, and the other one was URg Blue Zoo deck. I am thoroughly unconvinced with all of the whining going on in this thread. If anyone wants to call out the player skill of my opponent's, I'd like to call out the simplicity of playing the deck.

*I'm talking about full 2/3 matches, not single games. I've lost a few games to SNT Hive Mind, but I've yet to lose a match.

However, at 14 pages long and like 15 responses from me, I think this thread has turned into a dead horse. I'm done beating it, Mr. Jackson.


How did you beat it with b/g rock?

[KevinTrudeau]

Attack the hand with Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach while applying pressure with Tarmogoyf and refilling with Dark Confidant.

[La_Hire]

Unfortunately, I do have the time nor the cards to test it and provide results, but I could think see a list like the one below putting up a fairly good fight against Hive Mind. Its a sort of stompy shell which uses mana denial and sphere effects to prevent unfair things from happening

It has three advantages:
-its strategy is equally effective against both SnT-->Emrakul and Hivemind
-It doesn't use super narrow cards like Angel's Grace
-It completely gets around Pact of Negation .

It also uses its life total as a resource, which perhaps is unwise against decks where you are not necessarily the aggressor like Zoo, but a good plan against (aggro-)control and Hive Mind especially.

And one disadvantage that even with proper tweaking it is perhaps no tier1 deck.

I suspect however that if decks utilising Sol-lands drop Chalice of the Void and opt to play the good cards at 1- and 2CC rather than subpar 3CC spells (just like Hive Mind actually) named colorless lands can be part of the strongest strategies.

Remember the list is untested and untweaked:


4x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
2x Rishadan Port
10x Plains
2x Karakas

4x Glowrider
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Mother of Runes
2x Aven Mindcensor

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Mental Misstep
4x Oblivion Ring

1x Batterskull
2x Umezawa's Jitte

2x Flex


SB:

2-3x Surgical Extraction
4x Thorn of Amethyst
0-2x Ethersworn Cannonist


Apart from the mana denial package, you have 6 direct outs (2x Karakas, 4x Oblivion Ring) against Emrakul which cannot be countered. The sphere effects can also 'turn on' Oblivion Ring against Hive Mind since your opponent may not be able to play a Pact in the same turn Hive Mind enters play.
Postboard, perhaps even 4x Stp -->4x Thorn of Amethyst is enough.

Just some ideas.

[android]

If you're going the Glowrider route, why not bring in islands and stack your deck with Cursecatcher and Spellstutter Sprite along with Thorn of Amethyst. You wouldn't have game against Zoo, Merfolk or Goblins but you'd make it incredibly inconvenient for many decks to play their spells. You could even include Thopter/Foundry in the deck.

Worst idea ever?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Why does everyone assume the SNT player is able to drop Hive Mind w/ Pacts on turns 2-3 every game?

Because people like to justify combo being broken and unfair by only considering the nut draws. You never hear somebody complain about the time TES kept a handful of cantrips and sculpted into the win on the fourth turn, you hear about the time they went T1 Ritual, Ritual, LED, Tutor, Ad Nauseam, pwnage.




I am thoroughly unconvinced with all of the whining going on in this thread. If anyone wants to call out the player skill of my opponent's, I'd like to call out the simplicity of playing the deck.



QFT. As has been said before, people hate combo, and people hate having to adapt to beat it.


EDIT: Also,
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/55/BeatDeadHorse.gif

[Richard Cheese]

Because people like to justify combo being broken and unfair by only considering the nut draws. You never hear somebody complain about the time TES kept a handful of cantrips and sculpted into the win on the fourth turn, you hear about the time they went T1 Ritual, Ritual, LED, Tutor, Ad Nauseam, pwnage.



QFT. As has been said before, people hate combo, and people hate having to adapt to beat it.


EDIT: Also,
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/55/BeatDeadHorse.gif

I pretty much only play Aggro, and I don't hate combo, I just accept losing to it, then take the opportunity provided by a 5-minute round to go get sauced on Margaritas across the street. I hate control way more because the matches take forever and I am an impatient alcoholic.

[sdematt]

I pretty much only play Aggro, and I don't hate combo, I just accept losing to it, then take the opportunity provided by a 5-minute round to go get sauced on Margaritas across the street. I hate control way more because the matches take forever and I am an impatient alcoholic.


At least you're honest.

-Matt

[Richard Cheese]

At least you're honest.

-Matt

Honestly, would you rather play spells into a counter wall or drink margaritas?

[Koby]

Honestly, would you rather play spells into a counter wall or drink margaritas?

That's not even a fair question. Ban playing spells obv.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I pretty much only play Aggro, and I don't hate combo, I just accept losing to it, then take the opportunity provided by a 5-minute round to go get sauced on Margaritas across the street. I hate control way more because the matches take forever and I am an impatient alcoholic.


Honestly, would you rather play spells into a counter wall or drink margaritas?

There is so much awesome in these posts. I think I know what to do the next time I lose to fast combo.

[Richard Cheese]

http://i.backpackgnome.com/18589046774e3add8660eb97.40813784.jpg

Had to do it. Sorry guys.

[Tiago_B.]

http://i.backpackgnome.com/18589046774e3add8660eb97.40813784.jpg

Had to do it. Sorry guys.

LOOOOOOOOOOOL

I dont like combo as well. Its too soon to know if any card needs to be banned.

[kiblast]

Had to do it. Sorry guys.

If only I could sig that.

[Nihil Credo]

http://i55.tinypic.com/33af337.jpg