[Let's Bitch About] Show and Tell

[lorddotm]

I was talking to a friend, and he thinks this card could be banned. At first I was a little confused, but if Wizards can ban Mystical (since it powered all the combo decks) why not Show and Tell as well?

The Hive Mind deck is actually an issue since it is extremely difficult to fight against by traditional means (in comparison to Painter, Cephilid Breakfast, etc.) and is rather simple to play (in comparison to Storm, High Tide, etc.).

Thoughts?

[Star|Scream]

I was talking to a friend, and he thinks this card could be banned. At first I was a little confused, but if Wizards can ban Mystical (since it powered all the combo decks) why not Show and Tell as well?

The Hive Mind deck should be banned since it is extremely difficult to fight against by other blue decks (in comparison to Painter, Cephilid Breakfast, etc.) and is rather simple to play (in comparison to Storm, High Tide, etc.).

Thoughts?

Fixed that for you.

[Aggro_zombies]

Fixed that for you.
And how do non-blue decks beat Hive Mind?

Anyway, I had a similar sort of conversation to the OP's with a friend the other day. The same sort of logic applied to Mystical and Survival could potentially be applied to Show and Tell (card is not very broken but very powerful, but can be broken at any time by a sufficiently powerful future printing). I don't know if that's actually the case, since Mystical costs one mana and is a tutor and Survival is an engine that tutors, whereas Show and Tell is "just" a way to cheat on mana, but the card has been a very important component of various decks' backup plans for the last several years. Hive Mind would be much less of an issue if it couldn't just plop an Emrakul into play instead.

[Amon Amarth]

And how do non-blue decks beat Hive Mind?

Anyway, I had a similar sort of conversation to the OP's with a friend the other day. The same sort of logic applied to Mystical and Survival could potentially be applied to Show and Tell (card is not very broken but very powerful, but can be broken at any time by a sufficiently powerful future printing). I don't know if that's actually the case, since Mystical costs one mana and is a tutor and Survival is an engine that tutors, whereas Show and Tell is "just" a way to cheat on mana, but the card has been a very important component of various decks' backup plans for the last several years. Hive Mind would be much less of an issue if it couldn't just plop an Emrakul into play instead.


Discard spells, red blasts, and narrow hate cards like Angel's Grace.

[Tacosnape]

I would love to see Show and Tell banned. It's currently #1 on my list of the most degenerate cards in Legacy, right above Dread Return. I'd also take the banning of Hive Mind, which is the single hardest card in Legacy to stop.

In fairness, to not kill the archetype, what they ought to do is this:

1. Ban Show and Tell.
2. Print the following card:

:3::u:
Unveiled Wonders
Sorcery
Each player may put a permanent card from his or her hand onto the battlefield.
Those who regularly attend the Wizard's Fair know that some questions are best left unasked. Like "What's that under the tarp?"

This fixes the following things:
1. It slows Show and Tell down by one mana.
2. It lets cards like Gaddock Teeg stop it from happening.
3. It lets people play Planeswalkers off Show and Tell, which makes Karn and Jace more relevant in these situations.

[mrjumbo03]

@ Tacosnape, How about taking it a step further by making the "put a permanent into play", step by step? At least, it gives information to your opponent as to what he should be plopping down. Also, they should make it double blue so that it won't be as easily splashable as it currently is.

I doubt they will ever ban Hive Mind. It's a 6 to cast enchantment that needs another card in hand to win. What really makes Hive Mind so resilient is Show and Tell, not only by cheating the mana cost on said enchantment, but by also allowing a totally different plan b from the former.

I almost bought into Hive Mind before its recent explosion on the SCG circuit. I think it was the time Mental Misstep was spoiled and I was contemplating on selling my Spiral Tide to get the pieces for this. I had deals in place for the Show and Tells and the Grim Monoliths, but changed my mind at the last minute. I'll be surprised if Show and Tell doesn't get banned come next bannouncement.

[Rizso]

Show and Tell is an accelerator that also protects the spell you want to get throught. If you cast show and tell and want that Hivemind into play you gain that tempo of 6 mana as well you arent losing your Hive Mind. I have seen Hive Mind grind out counters with just chaining a couple of Show and Tell then just procced to cast it for mana from sol land + island + monolith. No other accelerator does this.

The hive mind deck do have the counter counter to their deck in their board in form of Leyline of Sanctity. Protects their hand from Cliques and discard spells.

I would like to some cards that actually turns of Hivemind. If they cant print cards that does it I dont think Show and Tell is gonna be good for the format.

New hatebear 2/2 for 2, Name a card. Permanents cards or cards in graveyards with the chosen name loses all abilities.

[Mr. Safety]

The funny thing is that Hive Mind has been out since Magic 2010. Almost a full 2 years...I'm surprised it took this long for someone to break it with Show and Tell. The tech has been unchanged for the most part since it was printed (and even had Mystical Tutor available to it at one point...)

[Rizso]

It was rumored before not of being a serius deck. But now there really isnt a question anymore if the deck is good or not. Its now known to be one of the best decks atm.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

I voiced a similar concern to a friend of mine, since a ban seems possible given WotCs precedence and since SnT is the card responsible for many of my best MtG results (thus, banning it would disappoint me greatly). I'd say it's not banworthy because unlike Mystical ANT/ Reanimator, the correct hate does beat Hive Mind. Angel's Grace is practically a freeroll unless they have their own and a ton of cards attack it effectively like Spellstutter Sprite, Daze and Stifle. Granted, with the possible exception of Daze all of the best cards against Hive Mind blow ass, but against that deck specifically they do win. Mystical-powered decks fought right through all of the hate by tutoring up their 1-of and going off whenever they felt like it.

I doubt that'll stop them from pulling the trigger if they think it's taking over, but it remains to be seen how strong the deck proves against people siding for it. It helps that NO RUG and Merfolk are both pretty strongly favored already, so maybe SnT will avoid the banhammer until they print something really broken. It does seem inevitable that it'll happen eventually, I just doubt it'll be Hive Mind that does it.

[Tacosnape]

Merfolk and NO Rug aren't -that- strongly favored. People don't seem to realize that when it counts, Hive Mind has as many counters as the rest of them. Pact of Negation is just as relevant when trying to stick a Hive Mind as is any other counter, and opposing Mental Missteps are basically blanked.

[kusumoto]

They will ban it and that will be great.
These Show and Tell decks are just so obnoxious and they keep demanding more and more narrow answers.

[Tacosnape]

They will ban it and that will be great.
These Show and Tell decks are just so obnoxious and they keep demanding more and more narrow answers.

And the worst part is, there are so so few options that are good against everything Hive Mind does. Blue counters are the best bet. Force of Will and Spell Pierce.

Even the amazing Angel's Grace / Sundial of the Infinite shenanigans won't help you at all against the turn two/three Emrakul. You've got to have an answer for that as well.

[mrjumbo03]

The funny thing is that Hive Mind has been out since Magic 2010. Almost a full 2 years...I'm surprised it took this long for someone to break it with Show and Tell. The tech has been unchanged for the most part since it was printed (and even had Mystical Tutor available to it at one point...)

The printing of Mental Misstep hurt other combo decks so bad that a combo deck which doesn't rely on resolving one drops to win is bound to gain some traction. The format slowed down to a point that you don't have to win on the first or second turn to be considered a tier1 combo deck. Moreover, because of the Mental Misstep mania, people started removing Daze and Stifle from their decks to have space for said card, thereby eliminating more possible outs to Hive Mind. Playing Hive Mind prior to the printing of Misstep was just counter intuitive because you can play something better in the form of ANT or TES as far as combo decks go.

[Koby]

I agree with the assessments regarding other combo decks being pushed out of the metagame due to Mental Misstep.

I think that in regards to banning a certain card, I would more inclined to have Show and Tell depart, rather than Hive Mind. Hive Mind (when cast) is much easier to deal with than it being dropped with Show and Tell. It would also change the Hive Mind deck from easily being able to drop Progenitus/Emrakul when they suspect/know that there are ways to deal with the Hive Mind plan.

Dropping [insert high mana cost overpowered card] on turn 2 with blue protection in hand is hard to beat. This is especially the case when Show and Tell is on the draw, and you've lost the game before you even get to untap for your 2nd turn.

[Mr. Safety]

So just to clear up a question I have:

Opponent casts Show and Tell, puts Hive Mind onto the battlefield

If I have an Oblivion Ring in hand...can I target Hive Mind and essentially 'counter' Show and Tell?

[Rizso]

So just to clear up a question I have:

Opponent casts Show and Tell, puts Hive Mind onto the battlefield

If I have an Oblivion Ring in hand...can I target Hive Mind and essentially 'counter' Show and Tell?

He can just respond witha a pact and get you while the ring trigger is on the stack.

[(nameless one)]

So just to clear up a question I have:

Opponent casts Show and Tell, puts Hive Mind onto the battlefield

If I have an Oblivion Ring in hand...can I target Hive Mind and essentially 'counter' Show and Tell?

Yes, this works.

[Koby]

You cannot "counter" Hive Mind with Oblivion Ring.
This includes any permanent based enchantment removal, as well as instant speed removal too.

Without passing priority, the Hive Mind player can still "combo" off by responding to the removal. The only way I've found to stop such shenanigans is by using:

Ethersworn Canonist
Rule of Law
Arcane Laboratory

Which at least give you one turn to find an answer for Hive Mind. This doesn't give you much room to work with, however.

[Tacosnape]

So just to clear up a question I have:

Opponent casts Show and Tell, puts Hive Mind onto the battlefield

If I have an Oblivion Ring in hand...can I target Hive Mind and essentially 'counter' Show and Tell?

Yeah, this isn't going to help. Here's what happens.

1. Show and Tell Resolves. Hive Mind and Oblivion Ring are simultaneously put onto the battlefield. Oblivion Ring's trigger is put on the stack.

2. The active player gets priority at this point. As he is first to act, he can announce a Pact of the Whatever, put it on the stack, and put Hive Mind's copy trigger on the stack as well. All before you ever get priority to do anything.

3. Presumably, unless you've got something else, your Pact copy will resolve. Then his Pact will resolve. Then Oblivion Ring's trigger will resolve and eat Hive Mind. Or itself. Either one's equally productive at this point.

[Michael Keller]

It's not as though cards from Urza's Block aren't used to getting banned by now. It wouldn't be much of a surprise.

[Phoenix Ignition]

To me it really does seem like Show and Tell should be banned. It just makes too many options open for combo, and makes it far too hard to be able to hate out decks like Hive Mind. It's all been said... you have to plan for either shutting down their Hive Mind or their 15/15 untargetable by normal spells.

Kind of a silly card anyway, it's power level just straight up grows with power creep. Maybe when it was made it wasn't broken, but by now it's just ridiculous.

[workingdude]

I am not so much annoyed by Show and Tell as I am by Intuition. It is a 3cc instant speed demonic tutor for any card you have 3 copies of.

[GGoober]

I highly approve of Show and Tell getting the axe.

In the past, people whined about Survival (and especially when Survival became overly dominant with Vengevines i.e. Survival+Vengevine = fairly easy deck to pilot that is difficult to hate and wins when assembled). The same reason can be applied to Show and Tell. Show and Tell does require you to have 2 correct cards for the combo to be assembled whereas Survival requires you to have Survival + any creature. But beyond this, Show and Tell does not require further mana investment beyond casting Show and Tell to win games whereas Survival requires GGGG activations in order to almost close a game. Also, Show and Tell happens to be blue, which naturally fits nicely with the current package of 4 FoW + 4 MM shell, making the combo even more resilient in a good shell (whereas Survival required a high creature count for the archetype to be truly powerful).

Both Survival and Show and Tell suffer the same fate: future printings of relevant card is only going to break the card even more. Both Survival and Show and Tell are extremely powerful cards that give free wins that are easy to assemble (compared to other combo decks in Legacy). Both Survival and Show and Tell are essentially '2-card' combos and they are hard to hate out when both Survival and Show and Tell can easily be squeezed into deck that could potentially use a backup win-condition.

I won't be surprised in the next 1-2 years Show and Tell gets the axe. I would say that Hive Mind is incredibly difficult to hate, and if it picks up a little more, I won't be surprised we'll be seeing a meta of Hive Mind v.s. discard.decks v.s. angel's grace.SB. Hive Mind is the easiest of the combo decks to play right now, that dodges misstep/Chalice and is fairly fast, at the same time having a backup win-condition with Emrakul and being in a heavy blue/control shell.

[Mark Sun]

I would love to see Show and Tell banned. It's currently #1 on my list of the most degenerate cards in Legacy, right above Dread Return. I'd also take the banning of Hive Mind, which is the single hardest card in Legacy to stop.

In fairness, to not kill the archetype, what they ought to do is this:

1. Ban Show and Tell.
2. Print the following card:

:3::u:
Unveiled Wonders
Sorcery
Each player may put a permanent card from his or her hand onto the battlefield.
Those who regularly attend the Wizard's Fair know that some questions are best left unasked. Like "What's that under the tarp?"

This fixes the following things:
1. It slows Show and Tell down by one mana.
2. It lets cards like Gaddock Teeg stop it from happening.
3. It lets people play Planeswalkers off Show and Tell, which makes Karn and Jace more relevant in these situations.

I like this idea a lot.

I think Blue decks can be configured to beat Hive Mind, but at the moment, if you aren't play countermagic, this is an extremely difficult matchup. There hasn't been any numbers produced from the SCG Opens yet, but I am curious to see the number breakdown.

[Rizso]

Hive Mind does have the white leyline to protect against Clique and Discard.

[Richard Cheese]

Ban Show and Tell, reprint it costing RRR...profit!!

[pandaman]

And how do non-blue decks beat Hive Mind?

With D&T: Wasteland, Port, Revoker on Grim Monolith, Misstep on cantrips and Mangara and Karakas on lands.

That's how I did it the other day.

Wait, did I mention I got really lucky?

[soltakar]

When this card was first printed in Urza block I thought that it was a crazy powerful card just begging to brake formats.

When I recently came back after not playing since the first Mirrodin block and saw that this card wasn't banned I was shocked to say the least.

[lordofthepit]

I don't think anything will be banned, because nothing has a "ban me" target like Flash or Survival did, but if I had to pick one card as the most likely target to get the axe, it would be Show and Tell right now (by a wide margin).

As for how likely it will be banned, who knows? Seems less likely than Sensei's Divining Top did two years ago, which never got banned. Seems more likely than Mystical Tutor would have, but that did get banned.

[lordofthepit]

So just to clear up a question I have:

Opponent casts Show and Tell, puts Hive Mind onto the battlefield

If I have an Oblivion Ring in hand...can I target Hive Mind and essentially 'counter' Show and Tell?

It would stop him from beating you with the Emrakul plan. And if he only had Pact of Negation(s) and needed to play Ponder to start a stack, Oblivion Ring beats that. But you lose to any other line of play (other Pacts, Brainstorm into Pact of Negation, etc.).

[Gheizen64]

Honestly, i'd like to see Brainstorm go to allow discard to be actually relevant against Hivemind and to make it a lot less consistent instead of just killing the deck alltogether (this is just my opinion, don't hate the combo, hate the protection against the answer of the combo, make deckbuilding so dull. Hivemind is slow enough, so i think that would be a viable option here). The deck already run Misstep, to add on that Brainstorm and to a lesser extent FoW just make black mages cry. It would also make blue a bit less omnipresent in the format by making discards actually good against control and combo strategies.

But i think it's extremely unlikely that Brainstorm will see the axe, and if there's a card that WotC want to ban right now, it's Show and Tell. It has everything a card need to be hated by WotC: it make combo extremely resilient, it's blue, it dodge mana costs and it's an enabler.

Why print Emrakul, seriously. Put a Phage restriction on that (instead of lose, just shuffle), can't you see the card is absolutely bonkers if it actually enter into play?

Also if it were to be reprinted in a "fixed" permanent form, Show and Tell is absolutely a Green (Dramatic Entrance, Eureka!) or even Red card (sneak attack, through the breach). Say no to blue.

[bruizar]

Yeah, let's ban every good card so we can all be happy how legacy is the format with the most deck diversity (read: bad pet decks)

[KobeBryan]

Yeah, let's ban every good card so we can all be happy how legacy is the format with the most deck diversity (read: bad pet decks)

The problem is all good cards are in blue. That makes building blue decks extremely easy.

Until they up the power on all other colors, blue will be a dominant color.

[bruizar]

I don't see the problem with blue being the best color, unless you are either a racist or color blind.

Blue has always been the best color and WILL always be the best color. If blue is not the best color, other cards will get banned (Survival). In other words, play blue or go home!

[Jeet]

The problem is all good cards are in blue. That makes building blue decks extremely easy.

Until they up the power on all other colors, blue will be a dominant color.

That's fine as long as other colors get played alongside blue, which they do. This is something that makes legacy attractive since manabases can support 3 colors pretty easily.

As for Show and Tell, if Hivemind keeps showing great results in tournaments, I do think it will get the ax because that deck is too resilient for a combo deck.

[lorddotm]

The problem with Show and Tell is that if you have hate that beats Hive Mind, and they drop and Emrakul, you are looking like a fuckin' idiot, and vice versa.

Although I wasn't happy, banning Mystical was the correct move. I REALLY wasn't happy about Survival, I played in 4 tournaments when this was dominating and only did poorly in one. The other ones I went X-0 in games in because the deck was incredibly easy to beat.

The problem is not that we don't want there to be a best deck, it is that we want Legacy to be a fun format. Hive Mind isn't a fun deck, since a brain dead monkey can win with it.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

The problem with Show and Tell is that if you have hate that beats Hive Mind, and they drop and Emrakul, you are looking like a fuckin' idiot, and vice versa.

Although I wasn't happy, banning Mystical was the correct move. I REALLY wasn't happy about Survival, I played in 4 tournaments when this was dominating and only did poorly in one. The other ones I went X-0 in games in because the deck was incredibly easy to beat.

The problem is not that we don't want there to be a best deck, it is that we want Legacy to be a fun format. Hive Mind isn't a fun deck, since a brain dead monkey can win with it.

The post mystical ban/pre survival ban/pre misstep period was a great time to be playing tendrils combo.

[bruizar]

I think its rather funny that people here are whining about the strength of a 3 card combo. For years we've heard people say how bad a 3 card combo is, and how that offends good deck building practices on more than one front. Pact of the Titan literally does NOTHING except when you've assembled the combo. It's a dead card.

People should already be consider running sideboard Phantasmal Image to combat Natural Order, so Emrakul isn't a problem anyway. As for Hive Mind, I heard Stifle is giving free game wins this Winter.

As for non-blue decks? Go Splash blue.

If Show and Tell gets the axe, there will still be other options:

Polymorph / Natural Order (Ban Dryad Arbor?)

BR Sneak Attack with Thougthseize / Ostracize / Cabal Therapy / Inquisition of Kozilek / Sneak Attack / Stronghold Gambit / Through the Breach (Turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 SHG into Emrakul GG). Could run Rituals to accelerate, but its not even neccesary. Also has 8 REBs potentially.
http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Nemesis/Stronghold_Gambit.jpghttp://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Urzas_Saga/Sneak_Attack.jpghttp://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Champions/Through_the_Breach.jpg

JediEmreka

Reanimator

The card that makes Show and Tell viable is Emrakul. If Emrakul gets banned, there won't be a good substitute. Progenitus is often too slow, but Emrakul just pushes it over the top.

Here's some good hate, if Diabolic Edict isn't cutting it.
http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Weatherlight/Tariff.jpghttp://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Visions/Retribution_of_the_Meek.jpg

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I think its rather funny that people here are whining about the strength of a 3 card combo. For years we've heard people say how bad a 3 card combo is, and how that offends good deck building practices on more than one front. Pact of the Titan literally does NOTHING except when you've assembled the combo. It's a dead card.

People should already be consider running sideboard Phantasmal Image to combat Natural Order, so Emrakul isn't a problem anyway. As for Hive Mind, I heard Stifle is giving free game wins this Winter.

As for non-blue decks? Go Splash blue.

If Show and Tell gets the axe, there will still be other options:

Polymorph / Natural Order (Ban Dryad Arbor?)

BR Sneak Attack with Thougthseize / Cabal Therapy / Sneak Attack / Stronghold Gambit / Through the Breach (Turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 SHG into Emrakul GG). Could run Rituals to accelerate, but its not even neccesary. Also has 8 REBs potentially.

JediEmreka

Reanimator

Show and Tell into Hivemind, then pact isn't your typical 3 card combo.

You really own cast one spell for 2U to win the game.

The 5U spell is cheated into play. The pact is free.

2U for a 3 card combo is pretty spiffy, if you'd asked me.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Also Show and Tell -> Emrakul is a 2 card combo. For 3 mana. That probably wins 90% of the games it lands in.

[Rizso]

You dont 2 for 1 your self if show and tell get countered unlike natural order.

The others arent even close to what Show and Tell does. Every show and tell has to be countered and they dont even lose either hive mind or emrakul and there isnt much you can do really to interact with the combo. And if you arent blue you dont have flusterstorm or daze to interact either. White Leyline also cuts of Discard and Clique to screw up their hand and delay them a couple of turns.

Sideboard cards that are ok vs Hivemind dont really do anything else in other matchups.

Its very possible to print good board cards against hive mind but they should do it soon. The longer they wait the higher chance its got Hive Mind to grow into unstoppable monster.

An enabler as well as a accelerator and protection, dangerous combination on a cheap CC cost spell that is as well being blue same color as blue pact, cantrips, fow, intuition, etc.

Show and Tell might could be something liek this crazy.
2U sorcery, Each player may play a permanent card from their hand without paying its manacost. Cards played with **** cant be countered and gain splitsecond.

[Gui]

Show and Tell has been doing crazy stuff for some time now...

What prevented Show and Tell from being as hyped as Survival of the Fittest is that you actually have to play a deck designed to cast Show and Tell, not just a good deck that also packs the Show and Tell suite. This way, not everyone is willing to leave their UGx or UWx or UBx decks in order to play the combo. Still, it's been nuts with Emrakul or Progenitus and now it's nuts with Hive Mind... And it's amazing how blue fuels it so well, FoW, Brainstorm, all the good cards to fetch the combo...

[dontbiteitholmes]

The funny thing is that Hive Mind has been out since Magic 2010. Almost a full 2 years...I'm surprised it took this long for someone to break it with Show and Tell. The tech has been unchanged for the most part since it was printed (and even had Mystical Tutor available to it at one point...)

The format has changed a lot in those 2 years though. Pre-Misstep we saw a lot more Daze, Stifle, ect. that were bad for Hive Mind. One thing that surely changed the game was Leyline of Sanctity + Mental Mistep coming out now post board the Hive Mind player 8 outs to turn 1 Thoughtsieze that could otherwise ruin their day.

Stifle turns Hive Mind into a 4 card combo if they try to drop it off Show and Tell because they are going to need 2 Pacts to go off or a Flusterstorm if they are lucky. Once Hive Mind is on the table their Missteps are good for nothing because you can just make your copy target the original.

I think a lot of beating Hive Mind is people putting those Stifles and Dazes back in their decks and even though the answers to Hive Mind are narrow in basically Angel's Grace or Sundial being the best 2, those answers are pretty solid. I mean if you have Sundial in hand and they Show and Tell you drop it for free and it's uncounterable on their end. Yes it's a terrible card vs. every other deck in the format, but what other combo deck is worth playing when the combo mirror starts out with G2 possible Leyline of Sanctity a fistful of counters increasing including one that has Storm and 2 ways to kill you easily starting on basically turn 2.

I think Bant has huge game against Hive Mind if they put the MD Stifles back (which are seldom a dead card, I mean Stifling Stoneforge often turns him into a Squire and Stifling Fetches is often gamebreaking). I mean as I said Stifle beats Hive Mind most of the time and if they Show/Tell Emrakul it lets you drop uncounterable Knight who can fetch a Karakas, blow out. How bad can Bant be? I mean Stoneforge makes Merfolk winnable and we're talking about a deck type that has basically been a deck to beat since the format was a year old.

[crovakiet]

All I know is switching from U/W Stoneblade to Hivemind is that the Hivemind deck is pretty piss easy to play. You can't really make a mistake and if you do, well sucks to be you! You can race aggro and don't really care. You have too much stuff as 'must counters' for control. Either they try to counter your 'casted' ramp like Grim Monolith, or they try to waste your 2 mana lands(setting them also back a turn) and you can still eventually cast a Show and Tell or hardcast a Hivemind. 8 'free' 'hard' counters splooges all over just 4 Force of Will. I'm maindecking Hivemind for now and putting stoneblade, landstill/counterthopter on the backburner until something gets done about it. As long as Zoo/NoRUG is keeping merfolk down, its all good. *Leyline of Sanctity' is just the nuts as well...and you get to screw Burn even if its not a part of the metagame!*

Show and Tell is probably on the watch list though for a possible ban hammer but if its not banned...people should just join the Hivemind/Show party. Might as well show people how degenerate legacy can get!

[Koby]

/me has a deja vu of last summer's unstoppable monster...

Except, this time, it's well established that Show and Tell is broken. That said, there's a huge amount of tension in the format right now, between beating fair decks with hard counters like Mental Misstep and Spell Snare, and beating Show and Tell, which ignores both of those counters.

It doesn't help that most of the decks traditionally running Force of Will have abandoned it for Misstep, and now are ill equipped to beating Show and Tell.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Once again we have a classic overreaction.

Every damn time a deck does well people want to burn down the world to stop it.

Granted Show & Tell might be ban worthy but let's at least give it a couple months to see what happens. Like I said Stifle makes it a 4 card combo, Daze is good against it, Cursecatcher, Spellstutter Sprite, Vendillion Clique is good against the deck, discard G1 when it's a sure thing. There are plenty of decks that could be a terrible matchup for Hive Mind at the end of the day.

Any deck with Knight can drop him off S/T and fetch Karakas which completely stops Emrakul and same decks can run Angel's Grace if they choose. Yes Angel's Grace is a terrible card so is Sundial, they are just awful outside of this one matchup. However, if this one matchup is as broken as you guys say it is why would you not sideboard 4x cards that almost 10x your chances of winning the match. I mean did you guys not SB Faerie Macabre against Reanimator? That card was pretty marginal in other matchups, I mean it still came in vs GY decks but it was no Crypt or Relic.

Don't get me wrong, Show and Tell could be ban worth and may end up getting banned. On the other hand this could just be another false alarm from the usual bunch. As bad as some of the SB options are vs this deck the ones that are available just completely ruin it's day and most decks already run some way to deal with Emrakul in the SB or they should. Don't forget that one NO-RUG deck still ran through 4 Hive Minds in a row at SCG with little more than Daze, FoW, and some SB Surgical Extraction, and REBs before finally losing in the finals.


TL;DR
If we banned cards every time the community overreacted we would currently be without Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Corralhelm Commander, Goblin Lackey, Survival would have been banned around 2003ish, Brain Freeze, Top, probably a stack of cards I don't even remember. SCG Seattle was Hive Mind's break out performance, let's at least wait until the end of next month before we start jumping to conclusions. When the cards I mentioned were top'8ing all over the place no one ever saw the light at the end of the tunnel, but the only time that never came was with Flash which was instabanned for being completely stupid and Survival which just proved too strong in the end (though who knows if Surgical extraction came out a year earlier if we would be in the same boat, I mean Pithing Needle stopped survival the first time).

[Koby]

TL;DR

For the record, I do play GW/x with both Angel's Grace and KotR; and I've played the matchup, and I've lost a good amount of games because you really need both answers to NOT LOSE.

Moreover, all the better answers are strictly in Blue. Neat, we're back to propping blue back on the pedestal of "makes the format fair".

Or we could ban Show and Tell, and continue trying to make the format better, rather than hemorrhage more players because of this brainless combo.

In the span between June 21 to July 19th, Hive Mind made up ~11% of the MTGO metagame. This puts it at the 2nd most winning deck online, only second to Stoneblade. Hive Mind has been putting up solid results since about May on MTGO, before everybody started to talk about it seriously.
[Source: http://www.mtgoacademy.com/forcing-the-will-hive-mind/]

TCdecks shows this as the 6th most popular deck, with 14 T8 appearances, compared to 1st place's Stoneblade with 26 finishes.
[Source: http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Legacy]

[crovakiet]

You say that as if Hive Mind/Show couldn't adapt as well...Show and Tell into Iona? Progenitus? They don't need to run just Emrakul even though all of them do currently. You state specific situations to counter an Emrakul such as KOTR but what can KOTR do against Progenitus? You are going to have to work to make KOTR be able to race Progenitus thats for sure. If the S&T/Hive Mind deck is playing against a deck known for using daze, they will just wait until they have the mana to pay for it easily. Easily done, when you monolith first turn with an ancient tomb and then island next turn into show and tell. What's daze going to do? Like seriously?

But maybe it is an overreaction...all I know is playing Hivemind/Show is a much easier combo deck to play than your standard storm deck that has the chance to fizzle and it is very consistent, much more so than Belcher.

Or it could just very well be pact of negation. A combo deck packing more free hard counters than a control deck is pretty imba I hear.

Granted I am invested in Show and Tell so a ban would suck balls...but hey those are the breaks. I own Mana Drains and they were banned when Wizards redid the B/R lists from type 1.5 to legacy. At least I can use them in Vintage...I owned Survivals from when they were first printed only to see them banned Now they are only good for EDH. So yeah...those are the breaks...I just hope Jace TMS is never banned. I love that card haha...

[ESG]

Yeah, Pact of Negation is what makes the deck a powerhouse, IMO. It's virtually impossible for a nonblue deck to pay for, whereas a Birds of Paradise or Mox Diamond can pay the red for Pact of the Titan. It's also the most expensive to pay, requiring 5 CMC, of which 2 must be blue (whereas you have only 1 colored requirement for Pact of the Titan). And then there's the fact that it wins counter wars.

[bondfan]

I would much rather them ban mental misstep as it preys on the nature of the format. Format was pretty good before misstep became legal.

[dsck]

If the S&T/Hive Mind deck is playing against a deck known for using daze, they will just wait until they have the mana to pay for it easily. Easily done, when you monolith first turn with an ancient tomb and then island next turn into show and tell. What's daze going to do? Like seriously?

You counter your hive mind copy of the pact with daze and hope the hive mind player doesnt have 2nd pact.

[Cthuloo]

This honestly remembers me of the Time Spiral hysteria we had a few months ago (a combo deck, with counters, so hard to hate...).

What frankly puzzles me is this: if Hive Mind was such a bad deck in the old faster meta, wouldn't it be sufficient to return to some of the old decks? I'm not quite sure that Hive Mind can always beat a lackey into warchief draw for gobbo, a multiple nacatl + lynx + burn draw from Zoo, or any of the tempo decks we used to have (dark/canadian threshold, old TA playing stifles). Mental Misstep slowed down the format, and a slow but resilient combo deck is the natural metagame predator. If the meta shifts back to faster decks, and Hive Mind is still the deck to beat, then we will need to worry.

[dontbiteitholmes]

This honestly remembers me of the Time Spiral hysteria we had a few months ago (a combo deck, with counters, so hard to hate...).

What frankly puzzles me is this: if Hive Mind was such a bad deck in the old faster meta, wouldn't it be sufficient to return to some of the old decks? I'm not quite sure that Hive Mind can always beat a lackey into warchief draw for gobbo, a multiple nacatl + lynx + burn draw from Zoo, or any of the tempo decks we used to have (dark/canadian threshold, old TA playing stifles). Mental Misstep slowed down the format, and a slow but resilient combo deck is the natural metagame predator. If the meta shifts back to faster decks, and Hive Mind is still the deck to beat, then we will need to worry.

Yeah, this is what people seem to be overlooking. I mean it's easy to say "OMG they play first turn Brainstorm into second turn Tomb->Show and Tell and if you counter that they play Grim Monolith and hardcast Hive Mind and win" or whatever, but just like with any other deck it seldom works out completely perfect especially when your opponent is playing disruption and you are playing combo. As bad as Hive Mind looks on paper it is surely beatable. Hell quite a few people have beaten it recently in tournaments. People say it is immune to Mental Misstep which it isn't as it hits their Brainstorms and Ponders they usually need to find part of the combo. There are plenty of decks a Hive Mind player does not want to play against and coincidentally some of those are decks that were/are considered top contenders post Misstep. Merfolk, Team America, NO-RUG, Bant all seem to have game vs the combo deck so far and with a couple tweaks you could probably add a couple more to that list. The rough part is that Hive Mind has one of the best SB plans available to combo in 4x Leyline 4x Misstep which tend to shut off the discard spells that usually give combo decks fits. That said I would still much rather play against Hive Mind than ANT pre Mystical banning. Now that was a terrible time all around. A tutor to get your win-con or whatever singleton card in your sideboard you needed to blowout a deck forget that.

[ryO!]

The Legacy community as well as known as the Kindergarten Of Magic (yeah breaking news it s not Type 2).

Welcome to a world where, if something dare (i mean damn i have to rethink my deck build or even worse play another deck this is obnoxious !) to change your habbits, everyone will be crying Wolf to undo this (errr i mean Momy Wizzard) !

[Fsk]

The deck is really strong since it is very hard to hate. But i dont think Show and Tell is the real culprit here. The trully problematic cards of the deck are :

http://magic-ville.com/pics/big/all/054.jpg & http://magic-ville.com/pics/big/ice/037.jpg

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, this isn't going to help. Here's what happens.

1. Show and Tell Resolves. Hive Mind and Oblivion Ring are simultaneously put onto the battlefield. Oblivion Ring's trigger is put on the stack.

2. The active player gets priority at this point. As he is first to act, he can announce a Pact of the Whatever, put it on the stack, and put Hive Mind's copy trigger on the stack as well. All before you ever get priority to do anything.

3. Presumably, unless you've got something else, your Pact copy will resolve. Then his Pact will resolve. Then Oblivion Ring's trigger will resolve and eat Hive Mind. Or itself. Either one's equally productive at this point.

Thanks for the rundown. I was thinking on it last night and remembered: oh yeah...the Pacts are instants, and he doesn't even have to pass priority after casting Hive Mind!!!

Oh well...just brainstorming how to potentially hate this thing out. It appears a lot of experienced players (like yourself) have already been there, done that, doesn't work, lol.

[Gheizen64]

I remember seeing the deck the first time and saying "this deck sucks, it autoscoop to CotV at 0". Then you realize in reality the answer to this aren't so cheap, the only option you have barring extremely narrow hate shit cards like angel grace is to run a lot of discard/counters and hope they don't out-permission you.
Ethersworn canonist slow this down by a turn, however. Not the best thing ever, but when he combo out on T4.5 you can race it often enough.

[Tacosnape]

This thread is pretty much the moment of clarity where everyone gets it. The deck is nuts hard to hate out, for the following reasons:

1. Once Hive Mind resolves, you can't stop the Pacts from happening.
2. Due to its exact mana cost, Show and Tell is very difficult to stop from resolving.
3. The deck gets four free counters usable only to protect its combo.
4. Every card that could hate out this deck in a reasonable time can be answered.

Counters? Probably the best option. Don't think Hive Mind can't sometimes win a counterwar though.
Angel's Grace, Sundial of the Infinite? Meet Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.
Karakas, Oblivion Ring, Phyrexian Metamorph? Meet Hive Mind.
Meddling Mage on Show and Tell? Meet either Slaughter Pact or Grim Monolith into hardcast Hive Mind.
Discard? Meet Brainstorm, Intuition and Leyline of Sanctity in board.
Stifle? Meet two Pacts.
Iona, Shield of Emeria? Meet Slaughter Pact and/or possibly graveyard hate.

You're all slowly getting the point. I play Maverick, Deadguy Ale, Landstill, and Merfolk, and I can't get better than 50/50 against this deck with anything. If you aren't playing Hive Mind right now, you're making the wrong deck decision. Show and Tell makes this deck insane.

[(nameless one)]

What about CounterTop?

Counterbalance revealing 0cc stops Pacts right? And Hive Mind doesn't copy it since its an ability?

But yes, CounterTop decks still won't be enough to stop these decks since Show and Tell into an Emrakul would be hard for them to stop.

[Tacosnape]

Counterbalance doesn't stop this combo. Nor does Chalice of the Void. Hive Mind COPIES the Pacts. Meaning, just like a Storm trigger, all the copies aren't actually cast.

So, Counterbalance and Chalice actually help them. They stop -their- Pacts, but not your copies.

Also, someone just brought up a good point to me in discussion. They said that the proof that the deck/card is degenerate is the presence of Angel's Grace, which is the narrowest hate card in the history of Legacy, in that it only is used against one deck and only stops half the combo.

[ReAnimator]

Show and Tell is awfully close to tinker in many ways.

[Tacosnape]

The thing about Show and Tell is that before, the drawback was always enough to keep it in check. Even when Emrakul happened, there were things you could drop off Show and Tell that stopped whatever the S&T player was going to drop. Hell, I saw someone stop Emrakul with a Matsu-Tribe Sniper once.

Show and Tell with Hive Mind is just too beautiful. It completely negates the symmetrical drawback of Show and Tell, because the Hive Mind player just doesn't care what you drop. It might care if Ethersworn Canonist hits. It might care if Platinum Angel hits. It might care if you Fork it and drop Saproling Burst and Pandemonium. And that's seriously it. Slaughter Pact says it won't care long about Ethersworn Canonist and Platinum Angel, though.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Wow, I got some serious enjoyment out of all the whining by blue players in this thread. There's finally a combo deck that doesn't get shit on my mental misstep and actually takes some preparation to play against - ON NOES.

EDIT: A COMBO DECK IS GOOD OMG MASS HYSTERIA BAN THINGS I DON'T WANT TO PLAY ANYMORE ZOMG WTF BBQ MUST ATTACK WITH CREATURES NO OTHER STRATEGY SHOULD BE VIABLE WHINE WOULD YOU LIKE SOME CHEESE WITH THAT WHINE THE SKY IS FALLING LOL TIME SPIRAL LOL WAT

[Tacosnape]

Thank you for your completely pointless contribution to this thread and life in general.

The point of the thread, if you'd read, is that you really can't prepare for it adequately. It takes a wave of hate or, like the trend of Legacy anyway, requires you play a ton of blue just to have a chance.

[bruizar]

The thing about Show and Tell is that before, the drawback was always enough to keep it in check. Even when Emrakul happened, there were things you could drop off Show and Tell that stopped whatever the S&T player was going to drop. Hell, I saw someone stop Emrakul with a Matsu-Tribe Sniper once.

Show and Tell with Hive Mind is just too beautiful. It completely negates the symmetrical drawback of Show and Tell, because the Hive Mind player just doesn't care what you drop. It might care if Ethersworn Canonist hits. It might care if Platinum Angel hits. It might care if you Fork it and drop Saproling Burst and Pandemonium. And that's seriously it. Slaughter Pact says it won't care long about Ethersworn Canonist and Platinum Angel, though.

Its a beautiful THREE card combo. If you can't beat that, you should lose.

[Koby]

blah blah blah

There is a difference between a fair evaluation and a whiny rant. The difference is apparently lost to you.

I still think that Time Spiral decks pre-MM were a force to be reckoned with. Luckily, the metagame shifted tremendously with New Phyrexia.

[Gui]

Also, someone just brought up a good point to me in discussion. They said that the proof that the deck/card is degenerate is the presence of Angel's Grace, which is the narrowest hate card in the history of Legacy, in that it only is used against one deck and only stops half the combo.

Sundial of the Infinite being the second.

It's interesting how usually this kind of thread turns into "this set of cards can beat this deck" and with people failing to realize that the opposing deck also packs disruption to fight the opposing hate, and that decks tend to malfunction when they are required to change into a hate machine, leading to a change to the narrow list of better decks.

But this time, looks like this won't happen, because it's kinda hard when all the maindeckable answers to the combo end up being Ethersworn Cannonist, only delaying the death by one turn, or Counterspells.

[Gaius Darkfire]

Personally I've found that Pact of Negation is the biggest annoyance in the deck. Having a set of free hard counters with no real drawback (since you'll either pay for it next turn if dropping Emrakul, or there is no worry since the opponent is about to die) that also furthers the Hive Mind plan is crazy.

The deck is certainly very strong right now, and I could reasonably see S&T getting banned due to power creep at some point, but right now I would let things ebb and flow rather than demand bannings.

[Gheizen64]

Its a beautiful THREE card combo. If you can't beat that, you should lose.

First, it's actually a TWO card combo. Not sure why everyone is stating differently. Hive mind + any pact. Two cards to actually win, not three.
Show and Tell in this deck is like a busted ritual that add 5U or 15, not really a part of the combo, but it allow the deck a strong side route and it accellerate it by (usually) a couple turn.

Also, this has none of the usually weaknesses of a multiple card combo anyway. It isn't really that weak to discard since it packs brainstorm, it can EoT intuition, and it has a lot of counterspells, more than any permission decks except maybe some forms of UW control (4 pierces, 4 FoW, 4 Pact, 2+ MM). It's hard to disrupt its mana base since it plays a lot of basics and will usually play its sol land when he need it to win. Permanent removal against it doesn't work since with Hive mind into play he can just win in response. It need only 1 spell to resolve to win since you have a pact in your hand basically always.
Multiple card combo are frowned upon because you can see them come and you can attack them from multiple angles and because they're inconsistent. See painter where instant artifact destruction and instant creature removal works against it. Also you often lay the pieces in differents turns, so the opponent can see it coming and work around it. This is a multiple card combo in the same sense Desire is a multiple card combo: it really isn't because once you resolve one card you win instantly and you don't have consistency problems given you run 4 instant demonic tutor for 2U, four main copies of your win spell, a shitload of cantrip and permission and have virtually always a pact in your hand.

The only reason this deck isn't just downright broken is that it's not as fast as other combo decks, winning on T3.5 on average. But categorizing it as just a "three card combo" is wrong like is wrong to consider Desire or Bargain a multiple card combo.

I don't think i'm overreacting to this deck, just saying that i think it's the best deck in the format and it's not really easy to attack its gameplan since it's incredibly resilient to normal disruption. Does it need a ban? IMHO not until it place more numbers, but WotC isn't really known to look at numbers, see Mystical. So imho WotC is likely to slap a ban, and Show and Tell it's the most likely card to take the axe here for a variety of reasons. Honestly i've also already said i'd like to see Brainstorm go before SnT because Brainstorm is just boring for deck design (and also a tad too strong, invalidating discard etc...) for me whereas SnT at least often require elegant answers to it like metamorph, oblivion ring, karakas etc...

Peace.

[menace13]

Counterbalance doesn't stop this combo. Nor does Chalice of the Void. Hive Mind COPIES the Pacts. Meaning, just like a Storm trigger, all the copies aren't actually cast.

So, Counterbalance and Chalice actually help them. They stop -their- Pacts, but not your copies.
.
Actually even Sphere effects do not stop the copies either. I messed around on Modo against Workshops(I lost) and found out that as long as I had the mana to pay for casting my Pact, the copy-goes straight on the stack- just killed them on upkeep-even if it cost me 3 mana to cast them-. The Hive Mind plan is bonkers.

I am against SnT being banned. To me playing the red zone is a snore if it isn't Reanimator, Progenitus or Emrakul.

[Tacosnape]

Its a beautiful THREE card combo. If you can't beat that, you should lose.

It's actually two two-card combinations. Hive Mind and Pact is a Combo. Show and Tell and Emrakul is a combo. Show and Tell isn't really necessary for the Hive Mind, it's just a really broken Seething Song if you're going for it in this case.

Additionally, that's a very blase' attitude to take about the best deck in the format, and you're ignoring several factors of the deck. Namely that said 3-card Combo (Show, Hive, Pact) takes a whopping :2::u: to complete, requires the resolution of only one spell, and is completely undisruptable game one outside of counters and discard. Either of which it can compete with in limited quantities.

Also, considering Hive Mind's tournament wins recently, "You should lose" is a statement indicative of having no idea how strong the deck is.

I don't ever play combo. People who know me know this. Because I'm the guy people set out to beat and if I play a hateable combo, people WILL load up on hate for me. I don't play Enchantress or Affinity or MUD for the same reasons. All of that said? I'd be fearless to take Show/Hive into any tournament, regardless of how many people knew I was playing it and had time/resources to prepare. People will -still- underestimate it.


Personally I've found that Pact of Negation is the biggest annoyance in the deck. Having a set of free hard counters with no real drawback (since you'll either pay for it next turn if dropping Emrakul, or there is no worry since the opponent is about to die) that also furthers the Hive Mind plan is crazy.

The deck is certainly very strong right now, and I could reasonably see S&T getting banned due to power creep at some point, but right now I would let things ebb and flow rather than demand bannings.

The first statement of this quote is much more indicative of someone who's spent some time playing against it. Whatever your answer to stopping the combo is (Short of Discard), Pact of Negation stops it right back.

[Einherjer]

I dont think its been underestimated, all the time when I chat with my mates about Legacy... sooner or later (since 1 week or stuff) we get to the topic "hivemind is so strong" and no1 says its weak so if you ask me maaany ppl are aware of its strength

[dontbiteitholmes]

Look I'm 100% NOT for banning anything this early. Like I always say, let the format settle and see what happens in 2 months, but all you people calling Show and Tell nothing more than a Ritual are wrong. If I have a Hive Mind in hand and a Show and Tell and a Monolith I can play the Monolith, next turn Show and Tell if it gets countered next turn hardcast Hive Mind. That's a little better than a Seething Song if you ask me. It makes the opponent have to counter twice to stop your one combo.

Still I think the deck is very beatable. First off you have to understand that EVERYONE loses to this deck the first time they play it if they have never playtested it. Even in the SCG live matches a couple of the wins were based off people just not knowing how to play against the deck. I think the deck is solid, but I don't think we're going to be seeing Hulk-Flash or Vengvine-Survival levels of dominance anytime soon.

[(nameless one)]

Its a beautiful THREE card combo. If you can't beat that, you should lose.

I think the issue is not the Hive Mind combo but Show and Tell instead.

I have nothing against the Hive Mind combo. Show and Tell on the other hand, it doesn't require you to have that required thinking skill to win with that card. Even as linear as a tribal deck requires some thinking.

[Mr. Safety]

It takes a wave of hate or, like the trend of Legacy anyway, requires you play a ton of blue just to have a chance.

Not only a wave of hate, but BAD hate that takes too much space in your sideboard, potentially making it weak to other matchups. Yuck.

[bruizar]

The weakness is its requirement to assemble a winning hand. You need Hivemind and a Pact and mana ramp (monolith or SNT). On top of that you also often require protection. Thats the weakness. Like any combo deck, its about assembling a winning combination of cards in hand, whether that's stuff like LEDs, Burning Wish or Ill Gotten Gain, Empty The Warrens Metamorphose and Goblin Charbelcher or SNT/HiveMind/Pact. You kill combo by killing the combination that's lethal. It's not about being 2U to pull off. Heck, even Yawgmoth's Will doesn't do shit without a graveyard (2B). You require a setup and that is its weakness, however broken the deck may be.

IMO People are just lazy because they want to keep playing their pet aggro decks instead of evolve legacy to a more competitive environment, which DID happen to Vintage. Vintage used to have decks like Tools n Tubbies, Tendrils based Storm and Fish, but the power level got so high that these decks are simply not viable anymore. The triangle is now blue, workshop and dredge. The only reason why so many bad decks are playable in legacy is because whiners advocate banning instead of format evolution.

[Sims]

This is why I play EDH and Pauper.

[alderon666]

The weakness is its requirement to assemble a winning hand. You need Hivemind and a Pact and mana ramp (monolith or SNT). On top of that you also often require protection. Thats the weakness. Like any combo deck, its about assembling a winning combination of cards in hand, whether that's stuff like LEDs, Burning Wish or Ill Gotten Gain, Empty The Warrens Metamorphose and Goblin Charbelcher or SNT/HiveMind/Pact. You kill combo by killing the combination that's lethal. It's not about being 2U to pull off. Heck, even Yawgmoth's Will doesn't do shit without a graveyard (2B). You require a setup and that is its weakness, however broken the deck may be.

IMO People are just lazy because they want to keep playing their pet aggro decks instead of evolve legacy to a more competitive environment, which DID happen to Vintage. Vintage used to have decks like Tools n Tubbies, Tendrils based Storm and Fish, but the power level got so high that these decks are simply not viable anymore. The triangle is now blue, workshop and dredge. The only reason why so many bad decks are playable in legacy is because whiners advocate banning instead of format evolution.

And the weakness of Knight of the Reliquary is that you need 3 lands to cast. Screw that 4 card combo!

It's called redundancy dude. Ponders, BSs, Intuitions all turn into combo pieces. And the rest is just protection and lands.

The deck is so strong because it can efectivelly attack from two completely different angles. And both are pretty had to stop. The only universal way to stop both is counterspells. Other than you're either answering Emrakul or playing bad cards like Angel's Grace and Sundial thingy.

[Rizso]

Show and Tell is a protection spell for your hive mind. You dont lose your hivemind from your hand when you play it. If your opponent got a hand full of cards and you havent seen it, you are gonna have to counter it. In case he got hive mind /emrakul or not.

Anyway Wizard got time to print cards to deal with hivemind before it goes out of line and changes the whole format like Survival did. Thats lot more prefairable then doing yet an other banning. Like a hate bear / needle that instead of turning of activated abilties it cancel triggered abilties.

[ajfennewald]

IMO People are just lazy because they want to keep playing their pet aggro decks instead of evolve legacy to a more competitive environment, which DID happen to Vintage. Vintage used to have decks like Tools n Tubbies, Tendrils based Storm and Fish, but the power level got so high that these decks are simply not viable anymore. The triangle is now blue, workshop and dredge. The only reason why so many bad decks are playable in legacy is because whiners advocate banning instead of format evolution.
The reason many of us like legacy is how many viable and semi viable decks there are. I don't think it is unreasonable to ban to keep the format at an acceptable level of degeneracy. There is already one degenerate eternal format. Not saying there is anything wrong with vintage but i don't think i am alone in wanting legacy to be different that that.

[catmint]

it does not matter if the pacts are countered. The copy is created as the spell is cast.
I think it would be reasonable to ban show&tell. Sad if it happens, because I enjoy playing it...

[keys]

This is why I play EDH and Pauper.

Here's the door. Don't hit yourself on the way out.

[bruizar]

And the weakness of Knight of the Reliquary is that you need 3 lands to cast. Screw that 4 card combo!

It's called redundancy dude. Ponders, BSs, Intuitions all turn into combo pieces. And the rest is just protection and lands.

The deck is so strong because it can efectivelly attack from two completely different angles. And both are pretty had to stop. The only universal way to stop both is counterspells. Other than you're either answering Emrakul or playing bad cards like Angel's Grace and Sundial thingy.

I know what it is. I'm playing an SNT deck that's more redundant than Hive Mind myself. Hymn to Tourach is a good card against SNT decks. A combination of discard and permission is what puts the nail in the coffin for combo, and especially Spell Pierce is naturally strong against combo.

I say this in all seriousness, Battle of Wits Zoo is a reasonably strong deck that can beat Hive Mind.

[death]

The weakness is its requirement to assemble a winning hand. You need Hivemind and a Pact and mana ramp (monolith or SNT). On top of that you also often require protection. Thats the weakness.
..
IMO People are just lazy because they want to keep playing their pet aggro decks instead of evolve legacy to a more competitive environment.
..
The only reason why so many bad decks are playable in legacy is because whiners advocate banning instead of format evolution.

True confession: I've never lost a round against Hive Mind. Post-NPH, I was testing New Horizons with 4 Stifle and 4 Misstep against it and was very succesful. Likewise, I tested Team America with Stifles and it also did very well. If you understand the deck you are playing and know what hands to keep and play tightly, you have a good chance.

[menace13]

I say this in all seriousness, Battle of Wits Zoo is a reasonably strong deck that can beat Hive Mind.
Just stop. Right now! If a 250 card 5 color deck beats Hive Mind then you sir get the best mulligans of all time evar and your playtesters are simply bad.

[Shawon]

True confession: I've never lost a round against Hive Mind. Post-NPH, I was testing New Horizons with 4 Stifle and 4 Misstep against it and was very succesful. Likewise, I tested Team America with Stifles and it also did very well. If you understand the deck you are playing and know what hands to keep and play tightly, you have a good chance.

+1 for the guy who created the Hive Mind thread

All I want to say is that I can understand why people want to ban Show and Tell because it cheats Hive Mind on the board even though I don't agree with them, but saying that it also cheats Emrakul as a supplemental reason why it should be banned is bullshit. SnT -> Emrakul is old strategy by now, given our format's fast change of pace. It broke out in 2010 along with Vengevine, and unlike with Vengevine, people successfully adapted by packing Jace TMS or Karakas or other tools to fight Emrakul or Progenitus.

Honestly, I actually think SnT -> Emrakul is a such a liability I have pondered on just having Emrakul in the sideboard. Having both Plans A and B in the same MD can be versatile, but sometimes it can just force you to turn Plan B into Plan A because you can't assemble Hive Mind fast enough, and if they have an answer to Emrakul (think Jace), then you're screwed.

TLDR: I can't see how any deck that can handle Hive Mind CAN'T handle Emrakul. Any deck with Angel's Grace has gotta have white, and most likely they'd have space in their lands for Karakas.

[ivanpei]

Hive mind rolls over to team America, like any other combo deck. The format will adapt like how we adapted to spiral tide. Stifle nought is also a really good deck against combo, anything with stifle and dazes stands a good chance. Having said that, hive mind is 50/50 or better against anything else. The deck is really strong.

[alderon666]

+1 for the guy who created the Hive Mind thread

All I want to say is that I can understand why people want to ban Show and Tell because it cheats Hive Mind on the board even though I don't agree with them, but saying that it also cheats Emrakul as a supplemental reason why it should be banned is bullshit. SnT -> Emrakul is old strategy by now, given our format's fast change of pace. It broke out in 2010 along with Vengevine, and unlike with Vengevine, people successfully adapted by packing Jace TMS or Karakas or other tools to fight Emrakul or Progenitus.

Honestly, I actually think SnT -> Emrakul is a such a liability I have pondered on just having Emrakul in the sideboard. Having both Plans A and B in the same MD can be versatile, but sometimes it can just force you to turn Plan B into Plan A because you can't assemble Hive Mind fast enough, and if they have an answer to Emrakul (think Jace), then you're screwed.

TLDR: I can't see how any deck that can handle Hive Mind CAN'T handle Emrakul. Any deck with Angel's Grace has gotta have white, and most likely they'd have space in their lands for Karakas.

Yeah because everygame you're gonna draw them both.

If you can play answers to both sides, you still have to draw them at the right time. Drawing Angel's Grace when they pop Emrakul into the table is pointless.

[Gui]

Hive mind rolls over to team America, like any other combo deck. The format will adapt like how we adapted to spiral tide. Stifle nought is also a really good deck against combo, anything with stifle and dazes stands a good chance. Having said that, hive mind is 50/50 or better against anything else. The deck is really strong.

Oh, we are doomed, then. Noone ever plays StifleNought.

[Spartacvs]

show and tell in tokyo*

at our legacy tourney today:

in the final round the only 5-0 show and tell player only lost to some really brutal hymns for the perfect two cards and t4 living wish for shreikmaw to kill emrakul that gave tarmogoyfs enough time to finish it(opp was GB hexdepths)

this deck could probably be better since it only packs 3 brainstorm but this guy is doing very well week in week out playing this deck and fighting through the hate, many players here think that show and tell will get banned.


Ogawamasato /「Gitaxian Sneaky Show」 / "Gitaxian Sneaky Show"
晴れる屋レガシー杯 Clear glass and legacy / 優勝（5-1） Winner / (5-1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 《島/Island(UNH)》 2 "/ Island Island (UNH)"
1 《山/Mountain(USG)》 1 "/ Mountain Mountain (USG)"
4 《Volcanic Island(3ED)》 4 "Volcanic Island (3ED)"
3 《霧深い雨林/Misty Rainforest(ZEN)》 3 "/ Misty Rainforest misty rain (ZEN)"
4 《沸騰する小湖/Scalding Tarn(ZEN)》 4 "/ Scalding Tarn small boiling lake (ZEN)"
3 《古えの墳墓/Ancient Tomb(TMP)》 3 "/ Ancient Tomb Ancient Tomb of (TMP)"
2 《裏切り者の都/City of Traitors(EXO)》 2 "/ City of Traitors City of traitors (EXO)"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-土地(19)- - Land (19) -

4 《引き裂かれし永劫、エムラクール/Emrakul, the Aeons Torn(ROE)》 4 "Sundered eternity torn Emurakuru / Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (ROE)"
4 《核の占い師、ジン＝ギタクシアス/Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur》 4 "Nuclear psychics, Jin-Gitakushiasu / Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-クリーチャー(8)- - Creature (8) - 3 《水蓮の花びら/Lotus Petal(TMP)》 3 "/ Lotus Petal Petals Shuilian (TMP)"
3 《精神的つまづき/Mental Misstep》 3 "/ Mental Misstep mental stumbling"
3 《ギタクシア派の調査/Gitaxian Probe》 3 "/ Gitaxian Probe Gitakushia school survey"
4 《思案/Ponder(M10)》 4 "/ Ponder Ponder (M10)"
3 《渦まく知識/Brainstorm(ICE)》 3 "/ Brainstorm swirling knowledge (ICE)"
2 《直観/Intuition(TMP)》 2 "/ Intuition Intuition (TMP)"
4 《実物提示教育/Show and Tell(USG)》 4 "/ Show and Tell presenting real education (USG)"
4 《騙し討ち/Sneak Attack(USG)》 4 "/ Sneak Attack deceptive attack (USG)"
2 《精神を刻む者、ジェイス/Jace, the Mind Sculptor(WWK)》 2 "a ticking mind, Jace / Jace, the Mind Sculptor (WWK)"
4 《Force of Will(ALL)》 4 "Force of Will (ALL)"
1 《誤った指図/Misdirection(MMQ)》 1 "/ Misdirection misdirection (MMQ)"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-呪文(33)- - Spells (33) - 3 《渋面の溶岩使い/Grim Lavamancer(TOR)》 3 "/ Grim Lavamancer use lava frown (TOR)"
1 《精神的つまづき/Mental Misstep》 1 "/ Mental Misstep mental stumbling"
2 《紅蓮地獄/Pyroclasm(M10)》 2 "/ Pyroclasm Pyroclasm (M10)"
1 《赤霊破/Red Elemental Blast(4ED)》 1 "/ Red Elemental Blast Red Ling Po (4ED)"
2 《真髄の針/Pithing Needle(SOK)》 2 "/ Pithing Needle Needle heart (SOK)"
2 《残響する真実/Echoing Truth(DST)》 2 "/ Echoing Truth Truth to reverberation (DST)"
2 《血染めの月/Blood Moon(8ED)》 2 "/ Blood Moon Mon bloodstained (8ED)"
1 《セファリッドの女帝ラワン/Llawan, Cephalid Empress(TOR)》 1 "Rawang / Llawan Cephalid Empress, Cephalid Empress (TOR)"
1 《誤った指図/Misdirection(MMQ)》 1 "/ Misdirection misdirection (MMQ)"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-サイドボード(15)- - Sideboard (15) -



GB hexdepths

Onodera, Yusuke
晴れる屋レガシー杯 Clear glass and legacy / 2位（5-1） In / 2 (5-1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 《Bayou(3ED)》 4 "Bayou (3ED)"
2 《沼/Swamp(UNH)》 2 "/ Swamp Swamp (UNH)"
1 《森/Forest(UNH)》 1 "/ Forest Forest (UNH)"
4 《新緑の地下墓地/Verdant Catacombs(ZEN)》 4 "/ Verdant Catacombs Catacombs of the fresh (ZEN)"
2 《汚染された三角州/Polluted Delta(ONS)》 2 "/ Polluted Delta Delta contaminated (ONS)"
3 《不毛の大地/Wasteland(TMP)》 3 "/ Wasteland barren land (TMP)"
2 《暗黒の深部/Dark Depths(CSP)》 2 "/ Dark Depths of Darkness deep (CSP)"
2 《ヨーグモスの墳墓、アーボーグ/Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth(PLC)》 2 "Tomb of Yogumosu, Urborg / Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (PLC)"
1 《ボジューカの沼/Bojuka Bog(WWK)》 1 "/ Bojuka Bog swamp Bojuka (WWK)"
1 《ヴォルラスの要塞/Volrath's Stronghold(STH)》 1 "/ Volrath's Stronghold fortress Vorurasu (STH)"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-土地(22)- - Land (22) -

3 《タルモゴイフ/Tarmogoyf(FUT)》 3 "Tarmogoyf / Tarmogoyf (FUT)"
4 《闇の腹心/Dark Confidant(RAV)》 4 "/ Dark Confidant Dark Confidant (RAV)"
3 《吸血鬼の呪詛術士/Vampire Hexmage(ZEN)》 3 "/ Vampire Hexmage his vampire curse surgery (ZEN)"
2 《マラキールの門番/Gatekeeper of Malakir(ZEN)》 2 "/ Gatekeeper of Malakir Marakiru gatekeepers (ZEN)"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-クリーチャー(12)- - Creature (12) - 3 《精神的つまづき/Mental Misstep》 3 "/ Mental Misstep mental stumbling"
2 《輪作/Crop Rotation(ULG)》 2 "/ Crop Rotation rotation (ULG)"
2 《燻し/Smother(ONS)》 2 "/ Smother fumigation (ONS)"
1 《恐ろしい死/Ghastly Demise(ODY)》 1 "/ Ghastly Demise horror Stone (ODY)"
4 《思考囲い/Thoughtseize(LRW)》 4 "/ Thoughtseize Thoughtseize (LRW)"
4 《Hymn to Tourach(FEM)》 4 "Hymn to Tourach (FEM)"
1 《再活性/Reanimate(TMP)》 1 "/ Reanimate reactivation (TMP)"
1 《壌土からの生命/Life from the Loam(RAV)》 1 "/ Life from the Loam Life from the Loam (RAV)"
3 《生ける願い/Living Wish(JUD)》 3 "/ Living Wish Living Wish (JUD)"
3 《師範の占い独楽/Sensei's Divining Top(CHK)》 3 "/ Sensei's Divining Top Sensei's Divining Top (CHK)"
2 《モックス・ダイアモンド/Mox Diamond(STH)》 2 "Diamond Mox / Mox Diamond (STH)"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-呪文(26)- - Spells (26) - 1 《精神的つまづき/Mental Misstep》 1 "/ Mental Misstep mental stumbling"
2 《窒息/Choke(TMP)》 2 "/ Choke Choking (TMP)"
2 《クローサの掌握/Krosan Grip(TSP)》 2 "/ Krosan Grip Krosan grip on (TSP)"
1 《喉首狙い/Go for the Throat(MBS)》 1 "/ Go for the Throat aim throat neck (MBS)"
2 《非業の死/Perish(TMP)》 2 "/ Perish violent death (TMP)"
1 《ボジューカの沼/Bojuka Bog(WWK)》 1 "/ Bojuka Bog swamp Bojuka (WWK)"
1 《暗黒の深部/Dark Depths(CSP)》 1 "/ Dark Depths of Darkness deep (CSP)"
1 《ヴィリジアンのシャーマン/Viridian Shaman(10E)》 1 "Sherman / Viridian Shaman Viridian's (10E)"
1 《叫び大口/Shriekmaw(LRW)》 1 "/ Shriekmaw Shriekmaw (LRW)"
1 《イクスリッドの看守/Yixlid Jailer(FUT)》 1 "/ Yixlid Jailer Jailer Ikusuriddo (FUT)"
1 《フェアリーの忌み者/Faerie Macabre(SHM)》 1 "/ Faerie Macabre The Meaning of Fairy (SHM)"
1 《吸血鬼の呪詛術士/Vampire Hexmage(ZEN)》 1 "/ Vampire Hexmage his vampire curse surgery (ZEN)"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-サイドボード(15)- - Sideboard (15) -

[Shawon]

Yeah because everygame you're gonna draw them both.

If you can play answers to both sides, you still have to draw them at the right time. Drawing Angel's Grace when they pop Emrakul into the table is pointless.

Way to hyperbolize. If they drop Emrakul, it's not unrealistic to have dropped KoTR or have Karakas on the board.

Again, my only point is that if SnT should be banned, it should be banned only because of Hive Mind, not Emrakul. SnT-> Emrakul is not a failsafe plan B.

[bruizar]

Vintage had its blue decimated before, and with it, the format died. Let's just ban Brainstorm in Legacy too while we're at it so we can play extended or modern (Makes wizards more money than legacy, so it will probably happen).

[lorddotm]

Vintage had its blue decimated before, and with it, the format died. Let's just ban Brainstorm in Legacy too while we're at it so we can play extended or modern (Makes wizards more money than legacy, so it will probably happen).

I didn't know that Show and Tell was every blue deck. This is actually startling to me. I guess all my control, aggro, and Storm decks need more Show and Tells (with it beign such a defining card for the colour blue in Legacy). [SNIP - Don't go personal. ~NC]

[Removed answer to deleted post]

[Sims]

Here's the door. Don't hit yourself on the way out.

Creative.

Have fun playing in a format that is going to have the "best strategy" banned into oblivion like clockwork because people are too stubborn to adapt. And when the format has degenerated to nothing but aggro v aggro control v control v aggro because there is no combo cards left? I'll be over there having fun playing Pauper, EDH, and Highlander.

On a more constructive note.. The DCI probably knows what is the correct course more than anyone arguing for or against in this thread. You might not like their desicions, but in most cases they prove to be correct as time has passed. Sure, Survival was beatable, I never dropped a match in a tournament to a guy trying to send his angry ficus' at me. Doesn't mean Survival was a balanced effect. Tutors are dangerous for taking the random out of the game an enabling a level of consistency that shouldn't exist in a randomized 60 card deck, as evidenced by the fact that some of the games strongest tutors are banned. Survival was repeatable, so it was no exception.

Show and Tell, while being an inherently powerful effect, is not anywhere near as broken as a good chunk of the b/r list. It's a symmetrical effect, that while you can show in something hilarious that can win you the game (hive mind).. it's still reliant on having that card (+1 more) to win, assuming you can't find any way of disrupting them at all. There are answers to everything that you could Show in ontop of just answering the Show itself... Perhaps this makes the format "more blue" than some people want... well such is the nature of a format where you get to play with a chunk of the most powerful cards in the game. It's part of what you sign up for when you buy into Legacy.

If the DCI feel that it's a strong enough effect to ban, then they're probably right. I'll disagree with it, and then in a year they'll print a card that has the mana cost of BFM that is untargetable, indestructable, and has fading 1 that when you remove the last fading counter from it you win the game. And at that point, everyone and their brother will be thankful that they banned Show and Tell.

tl;dr:

Let the DCI govern the format. Just because you play doesn't mean you are any smarter or wiser than they are. Everyone makes mistakes, they are no exception and neither am I or any of you.

[lorddotm]

Creative.

Have fun playing in a format that is going to have the "best strategy" banned into oblivion like clockwork because people are too stubborn to adapt. And when the format has degenerated to nothing but aggro v aggro control v control v aggro because there is no combo cards left? I'll be over there having fun playing Pauper, EDH, and Highlander.

Meanwhile you have fun playing a format that if you do play the best strategy in, people will complain and then rage quit from playing you. EDH is retarded.

I've never played Pauper, but it looks fun, so continue with that.



On a more constructive note.. The DCI probably knows what is the correct course more than anyone arguing for or against in this thread. You might not like their desicions, but in most cases they prove to be correct as time has passed. Sure, Survival was beatable, I never dropped a match in a tournament to a guy trying to send his angry ficus' at me. Doesn't mean Survival was a balanced effect. Tutors are dangerous for taking the random out of the game an enabling a level of consistency that shouldn't exist in a randomized 60 card deck, as evidenced by the fact that some of the games strongest tutors are banned. Survival was repeatable, so it was no exception.

Show and Tell, while being an inherently powerful effect, is not anywhere near as broken as a good chunk of the b/r list. It's a symmetrical effect, that while you can show in something hilarious that can win you the game (hive mind).. it's still reliant on having that card (+1 more) to win, assuming you can't find any way of disrupting them at all. There are answers to everything that you could Show in ontop of just answering the Show itself... Perhaps this makes the format "more blue" than some people want... well such is the nature of a format where you get to play with a chunk of the most powerful cards in the game. It's part of what you sign up for when you buy into Legacy.

If the DCI feel that it's a strong enough effect to ban, then they're probably right. I'll disagree with it, and then in a year they'll print a card that has the mana cost of BFM that is untargetable, indestructable, and has fading 1 that when you remove the last fading counter from it you win the game. And at that point, everyone and their brother will be thankful that they banned Show and Tell.

tl;dr:

Let the DCI govern the format. Just because you play doesn't mean you are any smarter or wiser than they are. Everyone makes mistakes, they are no exception and neither am I or any of you.

True. I would still like the community's opinion on the matter though.

[death]

@Sims, you explained Survival vs SnT well.

@thread
Decks like Hive Mind is what makes the format challenging and interesting. Question is, if they ban Show and Tell, which cards shall will pick on next? Lion's Eye Diamond? Natural Order? Illusionary Mask? Brainstorm?

Ask yourselves, do you honestly want a format with just Nacatls, Coralhelms, Confidants, and Stoneforges?

[morgan_coke]

I think the best argument for banning Show and Tell is that it keeps showing up in problematic decks. First it was Reanimator. Now it's Hive Mind. The card is incredibly reminiscent of Tinker. Same mana cost, but instead of needing an artifact in play and only getting an artifact, it lets you cheat down anything you've managed to put into your hand. Three mana for "reanimate from your hand" is too cheap because all of the big monsters that wizards prints with anti-reanimation clauses can be played/cheated penalty free. WotC knew said monsters were too stupid to be cheated into play, which is why they have anti-reanimation clauses in the first place. Flash also let you cheat something from your hand into play, and required two cards in hand, just like SnT. Didn't make it any less broken. (and yes, Flash was dramatically worse than SnT, just using it as an example of a "two cards in hand combo" that was also stupid.)

[menace13]

Go play Modern, Bunch of little girls. leave the last thriving eternal format alone.

[ivanpei]

The deck is not THAT broken, whenever a really good combo deck becomes popular, they are calls for bans. Having said that I don't see this getting banned in the near future. People adapt, every once in a while combo will come in and kick ass. Then the Team Americas and Stifle-noughts come back. And then, Zoo etc etc bounces back. It's nice and balanced IMO. Show and Tell was a good combo (only one that's resistant to misstep) response to Aggro Loam which is a slow, grinding deck. Nothing wrong with that, just a bunch of smart guys, picking the right deck.

IMO Angel's grace is a really really narrow card. I wouldn't run it until Hive mind is like 30% or more of the field. Just pack more discard/ counters/ hate bears in the board. On power level wise, Hive Mind's resiliency is off the charts. It has built in anti hate bear hate/combo component in Slaughter pact. Back up beat down plan with the Red pact when opponents board out removal is silly as well. I've won alot of games against a stripped bare opponent in G2 with a 4/4 token, it's outrageous. The deck is pretty good, but not as degenerate as say survival.

I would put it's power level @ High Tide (Post Spiral and Pre Misstep) range, which is: Very Good against blue decks, goes off consistently on T4 with protection and just fast enough to absolutely destroy aggro.

High Tide was really ridiculous during it's glory days, Candelebra/ High Tide/ Spiral didn't get axed, people just adapted with decks like Team America. Aggro control will bounce back. You can't expect to win with RUG against Hive Mind all the time. Just because you're blue doesn't mean you ought to get a "bye" against combo. Post board, RUG, Folk etc have a very good chance of beating Hive Mind. C'mon guys, you know it's not gonna get axed, unlike Survival. Decks that beat Survival PACKED SURVIVAL. Hive Mind can't be splashed into every deck. I can see Wizards just leaving it alone.

[GGoober]

Another note: Meddling Mage should really see some play these days. He/she's pretty good against Hive Mind. Sure you can name Show and Tell and they accelerate drop a Hive Mind, but that means a 6cmc enchantment v.s. 3cmc. It also stops the Emrakul route. If you have a counterwar over Meddling Mage (which should be the case), then that's just another 'counterspell' that you have proactively started casting on turn 2.

I doubt Mage himself/herself can stop the deck, but when you pair that up with enough counters, it's feasible to fight it. I don't like cards like Angel's Grace agains Hive Mind. Sundial is alright in decks playing ETutors in the SB if Hive Mind is an unwinnable matchup that deserves a dedicated SB slot.

[GGoober]

Another note: Meddling Mage should really see some play these days. He/she's pretty good against Hive Mind. Sure you can name Show and Tell and they accelerate drop a Hive Mind, but that means a 6cmc enchantment v.s. 3cmc. It also stops the Emrakul route. If you have a counterwar over Meddling Mage (which should be the case), then that's just another 'counterspell' that you have proactively started casting on turn 2.

I doubt Mage himself/herself can stop the deck, but when you pair that up with enough counters, it's feasible to fight it. I don't like cards like Angel's Grace agains Hive Mind. Sundial is alright in decks playing ETutors in the SB if Hive Mind is an unwinnable matchup that deserves a dedicated SB slot.

[Tacosnape]

Mage on Show and Tell isn't bad. But I've found it tends to quickly result in Intuition - Slaughter Pact x 3, untap, Slaughter Pact, Show and Tell, Hive Mind, Pact of the Blank, win. Mother of Runes followed by Meddling Mage is much much more effective, though.

All the hyperbole of how bannings make us communists in this thread all seem to ignore any attempt at answering the question "Okay, how DO you stop Hive Mind?" And the short answer is that it's very, very difficult. Possible, but difficult enough to where you're better off joining it than trying to stop it.

[Koby]

I would like to add some anecdotal evidence to the discussion regarding playing hate cards.

I've beaten Hive Mind.dec simply by Wasteland'ing their poor mana base. I've beaten them by Misstepping their cantrips. I've also beaten them when they attempt to cast one pact under Hive Mind, and having the mana to pay for it (Thank you Birds of Paradise!).

I've also lost to Hive Mind on turn 2, because the deck is very capable of "oops, I win!".

I've lost games when I had Ethersworn Canonist, Qasali Pridemage, Angel's Grace in hand, and upto 5 mana on board with mana elves; to SnT -> Emrakul plan. I did not have enough time to cast KotR to tutor up Karakas.

This is my sideboard plan against the deck -
+3 Angel's Grace
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Wing Shards (GTFO Legendary boom-booms)

Which are at least better than StP and equipments.

Even after all this, I'm still not favored against the deck, because of free counterspells.

[Hanni]

Didn't we just have one of these threads like 6 months ago for Spiral Tide? What ever happened to that thread...? Anyway, teh sky iz falling!!!!1!!!

Anyway, people need to stop whining over every new combo deck. Hive Mind is a beatable deck. If you're having trouble beating it with your GW Aggro deck, or your SFM deck with Missteps and Spell Snares, maybe you should consider playing something else, or tuning your deck differently. Until Hive Mind starts dominating tournaments like Survival did (which was dumb, people need to learn to adapt), there is absolutely no reason to ban Show and Tell.

The format is full of ways to answer combo decks like Show and Tell -> whatever.

My 2 cents.

[Tacosnape]

The format is full of ways to answer combo decks like Show and Tell -> whatever.


Replace "Whatever" with "Hive Mind," and start naming them.

[Aggro_zombies]

Replace "Whatever" with "Hive Mind," and start naming them.
Well, you REB the Show and Tell, or Pyroblast the Show and Tell, or Counterspell the Show and Tell, or Force the Show and Tell, or...

[Koby]

Well, you REB the Show and Tell, or Pyroblast the Show and Tell, or Counterspell the Show and Tell, or Force the Show and Tell, or...

Precisely, the only way to beat it is by playing blue.

Here's some player sentiment from that idea -
"Legacy was my favorite format but right now I can't say I am enjoying it as I used to. Rıght now it is blue or gtfo if you want to win. Blue has always been dominant but recent printings put them over the edge imo. You can still play alot of decks but all non-blue decks are tier 1.5 or 2."

"Problematic for those who don't play blue."

etc

[Shawon]

But you're conceding the problem in the format is too much blue. Banning Show and Tell doesn't help that.

[Nicol Bolas]

Precisely, the only way to beat it is by playing blue.

Here's some player sentiment from that idea -
"Legacy was my favorite format but right now I can't say I am enjoying it as I used to. Rıght now it is blue or gtfo if you want to win. Blue has always been dominant but recent printings put them over the edge imo. You can still play alot of decks but all non-blue decks are tier 1.5 or 2."

"Problematic for those who don't play blue."

etc

Ahem, SUNDIAL OF THE INFINITE (colorless) > pacts

another ENSNARING BRIDGE (colorless) > emmy

[Beatusnox]

Precisely, the only way to beat it is by playing blue.

"Problematic for those who don't play blue."

etc

Red Elemental blast and Pyroblast are definitely not Blue.

[Hanni]

Taco, weren't you the one 6 months ago that was calling for the banning Time Spiral? If I recall...

Answers to Hive Mind? Oh, I dunno. Sure, they can board in Leyline of Sanctity, but discard is still pretty good at offsetting a combo deck that wants to have three different cards in hand (SnT/Hive/Pact). Or, you know, stopping the Show and Tell/hardcast Hive Mind from resolving in the first place.

Last I checked, there are alot of really good commonly played spells that work here, like Daze, Spell Pierce, and Stifle. Did people forget about those cards? Hive Mind gets around Counterbalance pretty well, but there are still a bunch of other very effective combo hosers that aren't horrible against any matchup other than Hive Mind.

Maybe it's time for Wasteland/Sinkhole/Vindicate to make a comeback?

Sligh and Fast Zoo seem capable of racing, since they can goldfish turn 3-4 too. And those are defensiveless aggro decks.

UWb Fish (Esperblade), Team America and Tempo Thresh, NO RUG/Bant, Junk (w/ enchantment removal*), I can go on if you'd like? Hive Mind is a combo deck, of course GW Maverick and Aggro Loam are gonna get boned by it, those decks are supposed to lose to combo.

I think the problem we're experiencing is too many players are getting into this mindless deckbuilding routine where constant netdecking of lists that perform well is preventing people from understanding how to adapt. I mean, I don't see Hive Mind putting up 30% results right now to warrant changing major deckbuilding decisions in the first place. If it were to though, it's not that hard to cut Missteps (oh noes!!!) for Spell Pierce's, like the rest of the format was doing in the pre-Misstep era.

I'm not really going to feed this troll of a thread any further though, so take my comments for what you will.

*Nature's Claim and Reverent Silence is some pretty hot tech.

EDIT: Someone just sent me a message in regards to Nature's Claim and Reverent Silence, so apparently I need to explain myself.

Claim/Silence aren't for answering Hive Mind, they are for answering Leyline of Sanctity. Then you can go back to shredding their hand with discard. If they do manage to get a Hive Mind into play later, it is conceivable that through all the discard, they don't yet have a Pact in hand, at which point Claim/Silence can blow up Hive Mind, but that's not the primary reason to bring them in postboard.

[Aggro_zombies]

Ahem, SUNDIAL OF THE INFINITE (colorless) > pacts

another ENSNARING BRIDGE (colorless) > emmy
Except ENSNARING BRIDGE doesn't stop a Pact, and SUNDIAL OF THE INFINITE doesn't stop Emrakul.

Try again.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Well, you REB the Show and Tell, or Pyroblast the Show and Tell, or Counterspell the Show and Tell, or Force the Show and Tell, or...

And they force back, or pact back. You need to have 1 more relevant counter and few decks can meet the requirement with higher than 1/2 possibility. This is the strength of Show and Tell, and we need a better Sundial to keep it in check (a permanent that stops Hive Mind and preferably Emrakul as well that interacts more with conventional MtG decks).

Although my pet deck has the Show and Tell alternative combo plan, I would not mind see it axed for two reasons.

1. Show and Tell used to be fun, but it is not with Hive Mind. Hive Mind can be a mistake (the original purpose can be a 'may' copy effect), but it is this cheap way to cheat in permanents that limits the design space.

2. Show and Tell steals the Red color pie! It is just dumb that blue should own all the best effects. (free counter, Brainstorm effect at U, stealing, unblockable). I vote for a functional reprint, but at 2RR (even 2R is fair for now).

Edit: As for now, a ban may not be necessary. For people who want it banned, go and play Show and Tell in SCG tournaments; for ones who want it stay, play some other decks but dedicate at least 4 SB slots to fight Show and Tell.

[Hanni]

Except ENSNARING BRIDGE doesn't stop a Pact, and SUNDIAL OF THE INFINITE doesn't stop Emrakul.

Try again.


Narrow answers deserve narrow responses, I see. Anyway, that pretty much sums up how I feel about the issue in regards to shitty cards like Angel's Grace. Wait a minute... don't we usually disagree on everything? OMG teh sky rilly iz falling!!!1!!



2. Show and Tell steals the Red color pie! It is just dumb that blue should own all the best effects. (free counter, Brainstorm effect at U, stealing, unblockable). I vote for a functional reprint, but at 2RR (even 2R is fair for now).

2R changes nothing. The blue decks still splash for it, and while they lose 4 cards that pitch to Force of Will, it doesn't change a whole lot else. If you're going to reprint it to try and fix it (which is never gonna happen regardless), you'd make it have a double color cost requirement to a) restrict the decks it can be played in, and b) prevents being able to accel into it via Sol lands.

[Humphrey]

Things getting banned, when the win percentage of one deck against all other is above 55-60% i guess. That was the case with Survival.

About SnT/HM I dont know. Ive beaten it with Sligh. Price of Progress copied, for the lolz. Also it gets beaten by Merfolk, which is underplayed right now. Because it gets beaten by Stoneforge I guess.

What Id like to see is a change in the priority system. Priority should switch after resolving a spell, that would give other colors the chance to react. Krosan Grip on HM or Bolt on Jace for example.

[Hanni]

Do you wanna be a mastuh? Pokemon! Do you have the skills to be numba 1?

[Aggro_zombies]

Narrow answers deserve narrow responses, I see. Anyway, that pretty much sums up how I feel about the issue in regards to shitty cards like Angel's Grace. Wait a minute... don't we usually disagree on everything? OMG teh sky rilly iz falling!!!1!!
Who put sand in your vagina?

[Hanni]

Who put sand in your vagina?


I don't think you got what I meant. Usually, we disagree on nearly everything, but in this case, I agree with you. Hence, the sky really is falling.

[Nicol Bolas]

Except ENSNARING BRIDGE doesn't stop a Pact, and SUNDIAL OF THE INFINITE doesn't stop Emrakul.

Try again.

Reading is tech, obviously they don't duh! Except, that should give you plenty of time to assemble since they will need to dig for the second part of the combo.

By your reasoning, then Leyline of Sanctity shouldn't be a sideboard option either because it stops Tendrils of Agony BUT NOT an Empty the Warrens. Or Llawan, Cephalid Empress which doesn't stop Merfolk if they have an active Vial.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Things getting banned, when the win percentage of one deck against all other is above 55-60% i guess. That was the case with Survival.

About SnT/HM I dont know. Ive beaten it with Sligh. Price of Progress copied, for the lolz. Also it gets beaten by Merfolk, which is underplayed right now. Because it gets beaten by Stoneforge I guess.

What Id like to see is a change in the priority system. Priority should switch after resolving a spell, that would give other colors the chance to react. Krosan Grip on HM or Bolt on Jace for example.

This can be wise and the world quakes, redefining card strength by upgrading Instant and Flash while downgrading other spells.


2R changes nothing. The blue decks still splash for it, and while they lose 4 cards that pitch to Force of Will, it doesn't change a whole lot else. If you're going to reprint it to try and fix it (which is never gonna happen regardless), you'd make it have a double color cost requirement to a) restrict the decks it can be played in, and b) prevents being able to accel into it via Sol lands.

The mana base is also less stable. My point was Show and Tell at 2U may not be ban-worthy at the moment, but I hate it being blue.

[Beatusnox]

I don't think you got what I meant. Usually, we disagree on nearly everything, but in this case, I agree with you. Hence, the sky really is falling.

Hanni, its only 2011, not 2012, don't go around scaring people.

On topic, There is a fine line for whether or not S&T needs to be banned. As of right now, Hivemind and S&T into Emrakul are not degenerative enough for it to be banned. Many people forget that colors other than blue have counterspells. As unideal as it is, there is stuff like:

Mana Tithe
Illumination
Lapse of Certainty
Mages' Contest
Presence of the Master
Teferi's Care
Molten Influence
Nether void


Just some cards off the top of my head that aren't blue that can stop Hivemind or show and tell.

[Humphrey]

half of it is unable to stop the combo, the other half just delays it

[Beatusnox]

half of it is unable to stop the combo, the other half just delays it

If you want to look at it that way, force of will stops nothing because they can stop force of will. if you counter Hive mind, they cant play a pact and get the trigger.... Just a thought there. Countering show and tell forces them to pay for the hive mind.

[Tacosnape]

Everyone's answer seems to be "Don't let Show and Tell resolve." This is nowhere -near- as easy as it sounds, coming from a person who primarily plays Blue.

First of all, there aren't that many counters in the format that hit it. Force of Will hits it, obviously. So do the Red Blasts, for the few decks that play red and keep mana open (Hint. They're all named NO Rug.) Daze can, if they're not anticipating it or mana-shy and have no choice but to risk it. Same for Cursecatcher. Same for Spell Pierce, but the success rate is much better. Counterspell also works if you get two lands down before it happens and can keep two mana open while they sculpt.

For every one of these, you're more often than not going to have to have a second one. They have Force of Will and Pact of Negation. Force they'll spend aggressively if an Emrakul is coming down. Pact is blank with Emrakul, but amazing with Hive Mind.


Taco, weren't you the one 6 months ago that was calling for the banning Time Spiral? If I recall...

I was. I don't take it back. Something in that deck needed to be banned. I and the rest of the universe had no way of knowing a card as world-changing as Mental Misstep was about to be printed. Problem solved. I somehow doubt a card of such magnitude is going to happen again in this case.

[Digital Devil]

@Beatusnox: I think Humphrey was trying to say most of the cards you listed can counter Hive Mind, but not Show and Tell itself. The others either make S&T more expensive or make you only gain one turn. Unless you're capable of dealing lots of damage during that turn you're losing anyway.

[Aggro_zombies]

If you want to look at it that way, force of will stops nothing because they can stop force of will. if you counter Hive mind, they cant play a pact and get the trigger.... Just a thought there. Countering show and tell forces them to pay for the hive mind.
Which is not that hard in a deck with 6-8 two mana lands and Grim Monolith.

Also, I'm pretty sure that, if the opponent has more than four life, he's going to take four from Molten Influence. There's a reason people switch to playing blue when "combo decks that are somewhat soft to counters" crop up, and it's because all the other counter options suck.

[Tacosnape]

As unideal as it is, there is stuff like:

Mana Tithe
Illumination
Lapse of Certainty
Mages' Contest
Presence of the Master
Teferi's Care
Molten Influence
Nether void


None of these cards are Legacy playable nor do they pose a significant threat to this deck. Of them, Nether Void's the best, and it's slower than their combo.

Mana Tithe is underwhelming and narrow. Illumination only stops hardcast Hive Minds and can be countered. Lapse of Certainty is slow, clunky, and at best buys one turn. Mages' Contest is just lame. Presence is like Illumination, but worse and slower. Teferi's Care (Same with Arenson's Aura) is just terrible. Molten Influence is horrible, because they just lose the 4 and when. Nether Void doesn't stop the Pacts from happening, and if you can somehow stick one before a Show and Tell goes off, they might still be able to get to six for the Show and Tell.

[Koby]

Many people forget that colors other than blue have counterspells. As unideal as it is, there is stuff like:

Mana Tithe
Illumination
Lapse of Certainty
Mages' Contest
Presence of the Master
Teferi's Care
Molten Influence
Nether void

Just some cards off the top of my head that aren't blue that can stop Hivemind or show and tell.


Those don't counter Show and Tell, which is the issue at hand. If your opponent is hard casting Hive Mind, then that's a much easier scenario to deal with.

[bruizar]

Except ENSNARING BRIDGE doesn't stop a Pact, and SUNDIAL OF THE INFINITE doesn't stop Emrakul.

Try again.

Enlightened Tutor

[Tacosnape]

One of the best solutions I've come up with for this deck is a UW Wizard deck, packing Cursecatcher, Spellstutter Sprite, Meddling Mage, Azorius Guildmage, and Patron Wizard. Mage eats Show and Tell, Patron Wizard completely shuts down Hive Mind, Azorius Guildmage can keep Emrakul tapped down, etc. Black splashes for Stormscape Apprentice and Dark Confidant might be feasible also.

EDIT: Also Vendilion Clique, obviously.

SECOND EDIT: Something like,

3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra

4 Cursecatcher
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Azorius Guildmage
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Patron Wizard
1 Yixlid Jailer

4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
3 Yixlid Jailer
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle

Which I'd be less than terrified to take in to a metagame full of Hive Mind, combo, and control.

[bruizar]

This can be wise and the world quakes, redefining card strength by upgrading Instant and Flash while downgrading other spells.



The mana base is also less stable. My point was Show and Tell at 2U may not be ban-worthy at the moment, but I hate it being blue.

I suggest reintroducing: "Interrupt"

[Koby]

I suggest reintroducing: "Interrupt"

I second this, except only blue stands to gain, yet again.

[bruizar]

I second this, except only blue stands to gain, yet again.

Depends on which version of Red Elemental Blast we go with.

[Hanni]

3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra

4 Cursecatcher
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Azorius Guildmage
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Patron Wizard
1 Yixlid Jailer

4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
3 Yixlid Jailer
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle

Or you could play a decklist that's a little less narrow and doesn't scoop it up to decks like Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, GW Aggro, so on and so forth. Like, say...

U/W/b Esperblade

// Lands (18)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
2 [R] Scrubland
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Plains

// Creatures (17)
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells (25)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle

This deck was built without Hive Mind in mind, so I'm sure there's ways to make that matchup even better. I wold not be concerned with that matchup while playing with this deck, though. The deck pretty much says "eff you" to combo decks.

[Intet's Attendant]

If the problem is blue again, why not just ban Force of Will and Brainstorm like someone already mentioned in order to bring blue closer down to the power level of the other colors?

It seems to me like even if Show and Tell is banned, another blue-based combo deck featuring those aforementioned cards will simply take its place to dominate.

And if it's not a combo deck that dominates with those cards, it will simply be a Ux control deck.

I think the real problem here is that blue and its counterspells is still grossly overpowered simply because it is necessary to compete against the combo decks. The next best thing is black and its proactive discard, and then white and its prevention, but as long as blue has free counterspells it will be able to sit back and do things while simply countering whatever the non-blue decks throw at it.

Maybe it is time for modern to simply take over.

[bruizar]

@Hanni

That list really isnt that good against combo to be honest. You have 4 hardcounters (Force of Will). Daze can be played around and mental misstep takes on cantrips only. It buys you some time, but you still only have Force of Will to defend against Show and Tell on the stack. The Tidehollow Scullers are good though.

IF there are going to be any bannings, I'd suggest banning Hive Mind, the way Dream Halls was once banned. Emrakul and Progenitus are easy to answer in most colors (White has Weathered Wayfarer for Karakas, Wrath of God, Retribution of the Meek and Tariff, Black has Damnation, Perish, Nature's Ruin, Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edict (and other edicts), Blue has Curfew, PHyrexian Metamorph and Phantasmal Image, Red has Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast for the Show and Tell, Green doesn't have anything besides Knight of the Reliquary if you're playing white too. The only mono green deck I know is elves, and that's running hardcast Emrakul itself.

[Hanni]

@Hanni

That list really isnt that good against combo to be honest. You have 4 hardcounters (Force of Will). Daze can be played around and mental misstep takes on cantrips only. It buys you some time, but you still only have Force of Will to defend against Show and Tell on the stack. The Tidehollow Scullers are good though.

And you know this because... you've played with the deck, or played with combo against the deck?

The deck ass rapes combo. If the combo player plays around Daze, they lose massive amounts of tempo. It's even worse when they play around single Daze only to eat double Daze. Fact is, the deck runs 12 free countermagic spells while it casts bombs like Dark Confidant and Tidehollow Sculler, and the combo player just keeps getting hit by disruption while being put on a clock at the same time.

Postboard it gets even worse, once the Spell Pierce's come in. The sideboarding plans vary based on the (combo) matchup. Like, Jitte/Batterskull is bad against Spiral Tide, but great against Tendrils/EtW. So what comes in and what goes out varies.

Please don't just look at a decklist and assume a matchup is good or bad because of what it looks like on paper. If you still don't believe me, go ahead and sleeve the deck up, playtest it against a various gauntlet of combo decks, and if you're not fully satisfied, I'll offer a 100% money back guaruntee.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Except ENSNARING BRIDGE doesn't stop a Pact, and SUNDIAL OF THE INFINITE doesn't stop Emrakul.

Try again.

Attention everyone. If a deck can't be stopped by one card it needs to be banned, carry on.

[brianw712]

Enlightened Tutor

The problem with Enlightened Tutor is that, in order to stop Show-->Hive Mind-->Pact, you need to already have Sundial in play, which means that you'll generally want to E. Tutor for Sundial as soon as possible. And then you won't have the E. Tutor to search for Bridge when Emrakul comes down. Of course if you have two E. Tutors this is fine, but that won't always happen.

[Gheizen64]

@Hanni

That list really isnt that good against combo to be honest. You have 4 hardcounters (Force of Will). Daze can be played around and mental misstep takes on cantrips only. It buys you some time, but you still only have Force of Will to defend against Show and Tell on the stack. The Tidehollow Scullers are good though.

IF there are going to be any bannings, I'd suggest banning Hive Mind, the way Dream Halls was once banned. Emrakul and Progenitus are easy to answer in most colors (White has Weathered Wayfarer for Karakas, Wrath of God, Retribution of the Meek and Tariff, Black has Damnation, Perish, Nature's Ruin, Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edict (and other edicts), Blue has Curfew, PHyrexian Metamorph and Phantasmal Image, Red has Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast for the Show and Tell, Green doesn't have anything besides Knight of the Reliquary if you're playing white too. The only mono green deck I know is elves, and that's running hardcast Emrakul itself.

Be real, WotC will NEVER ban Hive Mind. Show and Tell has a big "card not liked by wizard" printed on it while Hive Mind has a big "we never ban the newer printed card".

[KevinTrudeau]

Wait until December, then make a decision. If I had to make a decision right now, no, I don't think Show and Tell should be banned.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Be real, WotC will NEVER ban Hive Mind. Show and Tell has a big "card not liked by wizard" printed on it while Hive Mind has a big "we never ban the newer printed card".

I feel the need to say this every post, I don't agree that S&T should be banned until and unless the format has had enough time to attempt to adjust and fails to be able to answer S&T Hive Mind.

However if that time comes there is a 100% chance it will be Show & Tell and not Hive Mind. WotC I believe has stated before that in similar situations they will always ban the enabler and it's clear at this point that Show & Tell is only getting better as more powerful permanents get printed. I don't know if Hive Mind will be the final blow but I feel like someday Show & Tell will be banned because it's always going to be 2U for any non walker permanent which seems to get better every set. That said if Hive Mind turns out to not be the nail in the coffin and ends up a tier 2 deck I hope they don't pull the trigger and ban Show anyways. I mean everyone wanted to ban Survival back in 2004 when it was the dominant deck but then Pithing Needle came out and Survival was fair for a good 6-7 more years (It was actually still fair pre-Needle it was just a tier 1 deck).

So far I think WotC has done a good job with the banned list. There are certainly cards I think could come off, but overall I agree with Survival, Mystical Tutor, and obviously Flash being banned. You have to admit the Legacy banned list is smaller than it was when the format first started despite the number if Magic cards almost doubling since then, which is pretty impressive. A lot of the cards people have said could never come off the banned list have and none ended up breaking the format.

I think a lot of people need to just admit that WotC is a lot more savy at handling the banned list than anyone else. Even if their stated reason for banning Mystical Tutor was off base I think it was the right move in the end just because it gives the combo player 5x ways to draw a card that is 1x in their sideboard and it can also get any number of cards they may need for their combo. More importantly though WotC has been very conservative with putting cards on the list. Anyone giving people shit for asking for a S&T ban are right to do so, anyone saying WotC will ban S&T because they cave to complainers or whatever needs to learn the history of Legacy. They have not pulled the trigger many times before when the pressure was on and been right every time.

[Humphrey]

Stop crying and learn to play, i'm saying that and i'm not even playing Show and tell..

stop trolling and learn to post something with content..

besides, a lot of people said same thing before survival was banned. "just give the format more time to adapt" - In the end the format adepted by playing survival against survival. and there were a lot of commonly played hatecards available. Grip, Pridemage, Needle, Gyhate.

I dont see that with Hivemind, but SnT is an I-Win Button in blue for 2U, thats much to strong in my opinion. And there are only few narrow sb options here

[dontbiteitholmes]

stop trolling and learn to post something with content..

besides, a lot of people said same thing before survival was banned. "just give the format more time to adapt" - In the end the format adepted by playing survival against survival. and there were a lot of commonly played hatecards available. Grip, Pridemage, Needle, Gyhate.

I dont see that with Hivemind, but SnT is an I-Win Button in blue for 2U, thats much to strong in my opinion. And there are only few narrow sb options here

Yeah but people also said that for a truckload of other cards that never got banned.

[troopatroop]

Yeah but people also said that for a truckload of other cards that never got banned.

Like what? Yawgmoth's Will? That says "I win" for 3cc. Flash said it for 2, with a card in hand required and similar design restrictions, such as the need to play Protean Hulk and Creatures to win. The point is, that Show and Tell is a very similar card, and if they ban anything that's too strong here, it's not going to be Hive Mind. I for one think the deck is too strong, but that nothing is unbeatable in Legacy. The fact that you can SB hate specific to stopping Hive Mind and just get blown out by Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn seems particularly unfun. It's also important to note, that Ancient Tomb makes Show and Tell very easy to cast.

The people crying for Force and Brainstorm to be banned are seriously lost, imo. Yes those are the cards that are destroying you in this matchup, but they are not the cards that deserve banning. Flash was a turn 2-3 deck. Is Show and Tell any different?

[ivanpei]

Honestly people keep forgetting about Hive Mind's weakspot: INTUITION. PACTS CANNOT PROTECT THE EOT INTUITION/LDV. Always counter the intuition. Usually they go off with Pact protection only. You should always, always counter intuition. You will be surprised how much your win % increases when you make that play instead of countering show and tell/hive mind. Even if their hand is triple pact, a daze on that EOT intuition WILL screw them over.

Play more counters/REBs/discard, screw over their combo assembly and leave their hand full of counters, that is the way to beat hivemind.

[lordofthepit]

Honestly people keep forgetting about Hive Mind's weakspot: INTUITION. PACTS CANNOT PROTECT THE EOT INTUITION/LDV. Always counter the intuition. Usually they go off with Pact protection only. You should always, always counter intuition. You will be surprised how much your win % increases when you make that play instead of countering show and tell/hive mind. Even if their hand is triple pact, a daze on that EOT intuition WILL screw them over.

Play more counters/REBs/discard, screw over their combo assembly and leave their hand full of counters, that is the way to beat hivemind.

I am not aware of anyone electing not to counter Intuition.

[Shawon]

I am not aware of anyone electing not to counter Intuition.

Ben Swartz, the Hive Mind winner of SCG Cincinnati would like to differ: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/22410_Unplugged_SCG_Seattle_Legacy_Open_1st.html


Also, if you are playing against this deck, for the love of God, please counter my Intuitions at end of turn. I don't play Pact of Negation just as a win condition, ya know... I'm pretty sure that I would've lost many games if my opponents would have just countered my end of turn Intuition, because most of the time my only protection was Pact of Negation, which I couldn't have used at end of turn.

[lordofthepit]

Ben Swartz, the Hive Mind winner of SCG Cincinnati would like to differ: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/22410_Unplugged_SCG_Seattle_Legacy_Open_1st.html

I stand corrected.

I do not understand why anyone with some knowledge of how Hive Mind combo works would decline to counter Intuition, especially if we're talking about simply using a soft counter like Daze or Spell Pierce. (Unless it's to blow your opponent out with Extirpate effects.)

[thefringthing]

I predicted a long time ago that Show and Tell would be banned eventually. The card can only become more powerful as better things to put into play for free are printed, and it's a huge bomb already.

[Intet's Attendant]

We already have red and green versions of Show and Tell.

They are called Sneak Attack and Eureka respectively.

That makes me wonder - if Show and Tell becomes banned, will the deck just morph into a green based deck with Eureka instead?

[Nihil Credo]

It wouldn't surprise me:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Show%20and%20Order&format=Legacy

[nedleeds]

We already have red and green versions of Show and Tell.

They are called Sneak Attack and Eureka respectively.

That makes me wonder - if Show and Tell becomes banned, will the deck just morph into a green based deck with Eureka instead?

Is this a real question? The difference between 2U and 2GG is a world away. Sneak Attack doesn't put Hive Mind in to play. The problem with Hive Mind SnT isn't just SnT it's the 2 different outs ... either Hive Mind (versus the decks with Emerakul outs) or the EtAT for the decks with .... drum roll ... no EtAT outs.

Fetchland -> Go -> BS EOT -> untap Ancient Tomb -> SnT -> HM -> Pact of the Titan ... go

[Koby]

One of the issues is that traditional hate bears barely do anything against this combo. Gaddock Teeg does not stop Show and Tell, Qasali Pridemage is too slow to answer Hive Mind, and Ethersworn Canonist only buys you one turn to find/play/resolve an answer. Forcing the combo to use a 4cc enabler definitely makes the pairing more fair.

[lordofthepit]

To summarize:
- Answers like Angel's Grace and Sundial of he Infinite are too narrow
- Traditional hate bears suck
- Show and Tell is a fun card we would like to keep unbanned if possible, at least until another non-planeswalker permanent breaks it in half

Solution to all three issues. Print the following:
Grace, the Angel - 1W
Legendary Creature - Angel

Split second (As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities.)

Flash, Flying

Sacrifice Grace, the Angel: You can't lose the game this turn and your opponents can't win the game this turn. Until end of turn, damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead.

2/1

[Rizso]

Rather see a hatebear that does Humility to a card in play and in GY rather then a Angel's Grace Creature:P

[Hanni]

Take it for what it's worth, but I just beat Hive Mind on MWS (2-1) with the following:

// Lands (15)
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Bayou
4 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures (22)
4 [7E] Birds of Paradise
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ROE] Vengevine
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [CFX] Progenitus

// Spells (16)
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [OD] Buried Alive
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 3 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [DS] Viridian Zealot

Game 1, I win the roll. I have the nuts, and he has a slow draw. I open turn 1 Hierarch, turn 2 Buried Alive, turn 3 trigger triple Vengevines. He Brainstorms EOT and says gg.

I board out 4 Shriekmaw's for 4 Cabal Therapy.

Game 2, I open with turn 1 Hierarch into turn 2 Bured Alive again, but proceed to topdeck 4 lands in a row. I cannot trigger Vengevines, and he eventually drops a Hive Mind off of a Grim Monolith ftw.

Game 3, I open turn 1 Birds, turn 2 Cabal Therapy naming Show and Tell that he doesn't have in hand, Goyf, sac Birds to Therapy naming Preordain of which has 2 of. In hand, he has Island, Ponder, Hive Mind, and 3 Pacts (2 Negation). He Ponders (shuffles), is stuck on 2 lands, and passes. I topdeck Hymn, the random discard pulls Hive Mind and a Pact, Goyf grows to 5/6 and swings. He draws for the turn, and then I get "Player Lost."

Good times.

[Infinitium]

Boarding out your only MD answers to Emrakul seems like a poor decision to me. Anyhow, not really suprised that a blue-based combo deck with permission is up on the block again. S&T getting banned doesn't bother me in the least; forcing everyone to play permanent based removal or lose by default to a 3cc card isn't exactly my notion of a better format, and Hive Mind itself is obnoxious.

[Hanni]

Boarding out your only MD answers to Emrakul seems like a poor decision to me.

You're right, and I didn't really consider that during the game. Cutting the Natural Order and Progenitus package was probably the better call. Still though, attacking his hand savagely won the game for me in game 3, so it wasn't issue. In the future, I'll cut the NO/Pro plan.

[ivanpei]

Not a single hive mind deck in the t16 at the latest scg. Zoo, elves and aggro loam all present. What are you guys whining about. Geez.

[Shawon]

Not a single hive mind deck in the t16 at the latest scg. Zoo, elves and aggro loam all present. What are you guys whining about. Geez.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/LainaInverse/Troll%20food/funny-pictures-scared-cat-asks-if-t.jpg

[Hanni]

Not a single hive mind deck in the t16 at the latest scg. Zoo, elves and aggro loam all present. What are you guys whining about. Geez.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Like what? Yawgmoth's Will? That says "I win" for 3cc. Flash said it for 2, with a card in hand required and similar design restrictions, such as the need to play Protean Hulk and Creatures to win. The point is, that Show and Tell is a very similar card, and if they ban anything that's too strong here, it's not going to be Hive Mind. I for one think the deck is too strong, but that nothing is unbeatable in Legacy. The fact that you can SB hate specific to stopping Hive Mind and just get blown out by Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn seems particularly unfun. It's also important to note, that Ancient Tomb makes Show and Tell very easy to cast.

The people crying for Force and Brainstorm to be banned are seriously lost, imo. Yes those are the cards that are destroying you in this matchup, but they are not the cards that deserve banning. Flash was a turn 2-3 deck. Is Show and Tell any different?

Well there we go we have the results from this weeks SCG and no Hive Mind broke top 16. I'm actually kind of sad, I thought this adjustment would come at GenCon so I built a deck to prey on fishy decks. Hopefully I'll see a similar meta for next weekend.

At any rate, this is why you give the format at least a month to adjust before you go on record comparing Show and Tell Hive Mind to Hulk Flash or Yawg Will.

[Hanni]

Shawon: ahahaha. I love the pic dude. Very spicy.

[Tombstalker]

Hadn't seen this posted yet:


Lich's Mirror


Obviously pretty narrow but so is every other answer and its kinda cool to drop it in free and uncounterable off of your opponents SNT.

[Humphrey]

Stifle

[menace13]

Ban Merfolk. No, really, it beats any other deck's top 16 placings (In SCG 5k series-post Misstep-) by more than double.

[nayon]

Because the deck not showing for one week means it's not a problem. Also Merfolk was really abundant in t16's because there were a lot of Merfolk decks.

I say we need to wait for a month or two to pass judgment.

[menace13]

Because the deck not showing for one week means it's not a problem. Also Merfolk was really abundant in t16's because there were a lot of Merfolk decks.

I say we need to wait for a month or two to pass judgment.
Merfolk was I think 15% of the field or more at the peak(IIRC), that doesn't mean the deck is not really, really good. Pretty sure 35 out of 150 players can sleeve up Battle of Wits and not make top 16.
Edit: Also , Survival never missed a week. Not even once, your point?

[RainbowPenguin]

Hadn't seen this posted yet:


Lich's Mirror


Obviously pretty narrow but so is every other answer and its kinda cool to drop it in free and uncounterable off of your opponents SNT.

The problem with this is that you are set back to square one, whereas the SnT deck isn't. So your opponent can likely find a new win condition before you can. It's Like a reverse Karn: You start the game anew, but your opponent gets to start out ahead. Also, if they go for the Emrakul route, you will likely have sacrificed the Mirror to the anihilator trigger before you actually die..

If you would like to have a decent matchup against this deck, and don't want to play merfolk, I guess taking after Gerry isn't a bad idea. A somewhat oldfashioned Team America list with a combination of quick, brutal beaters, counterspells and Hymn or perhaps Thoughtseize seems quite strong.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Thread summary (tl;dr)

1. A combo deck does well.
2. Said combo deck is good against blue.
3. Blue players whine a lot and call for bans (repeat this step 100346356 times).
4. Meta adjusts to combo deck, and it starts to fade away.
5. Combo players point and laugh.

Also see "Spiral Tide."

EDIT: Awesome thread title is awesome.

[GGoober]

Thread summary (tl;dr)

1. A combo deck does well.
2. Said combo deck is good against blue.
3. Blue Aggro players whine a lot and call for bans (repeat this step 100346356 times).
4. Meta adjusts to combo deck, and it starts to fade away.
5. Combo players point and laugh.

Also see "Spiral Tide."

EDIT: Awesome thread title is awesome.

Although blue players have been complaining. Myself included. Reason why? We are reluctant to give up traditional/pet-decks to adapt and really hate out said deck. I have respect for one of my buddies who's prepping Maverick for GenCon and Hive Mind. He has about 9 slots post-board to fight Hive Mind/Emrakul and the only dedicated slots are 2 Angel's Grace and 1 Sundial (2 Etutor package). He has a fairly decent matchup when both decks are drawing normally and not drawing the-nuts.

From play-testing, Hive Mind really suffers on cantrips being misstepped and hating either the Hive Mind or Emrakul out buys you about 1-3 turns, because sometimes they will just sit on hands that they can't play out because you've locked one of the win conditions out. Sure sometimes they have the winning strategy that ignores the opposing hate, but usually, it's 50-50 whether your opponent draws one of the two relevant hate against the two strategies. Pair that up with Missteps on cantrips, you will delay them in finding the other route out to victory.

[jancz]

Can someone explain to me why Tinker is banned but stuff like show and tell and Natural Order aren't? It doesn't seem that much worse to me.

[troopatroop]

Thread summary (tl;dr)

1. A combo deck does well.
2. Said combo deck is good against blue.
3. Blue players whine a lot and call for bans (repeat this step 100346356 times).
4. Meta adjusts to combo deck, and it starts to fade away.
5. Combo players point and laugh.

Also see "Spiral Tide."

EDIT: Awesome thread title is awesome.


This is called, "Missing the Boat". ZOMG Hive Mind didn't win a tournament?! It can't be the best deck.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Can someone explain to me why Tinker is banned but stuff like show and tell and Natural Order aren't? It doesn't seem that much worse to me.

Does turn one Blightsteel Colossus sound like fun to you? Backed up by Force of Will and Misstep? How about a 3-mana Sundering Titan? Have you thought this through at all? Show and Tell has two important drawbacks compared to Tinker. One - it doesn't tutor. Two - it's symmetrical. There's a reason why Tinker is in every Vintage deck that plays blue. It's one of the most broken cards ever printed, and allows insanely fast wins. Sure, you need a second card - just play Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Chrome Mox, artifact lands, etc. and you're good.

EDIT: And I don't want to think about how absurd Painter-Stone would be with 4 Tinker. Lolz.


This is called, "Missing the Boat". ZOMG Hive Mind didn't win a tournament?! It can't be the best deck.

MOAR LIEK ZOMG Hive Mind wasn't even in T16 of a tournament. A top 16 with a bunch of aggro decks, for that matter. Get your facts right bro.

[CorpT]

Does turn one Blightsteel Colossus sound like fun to you? Backed up by Force of Will and Misstep? How about a 3-mana Sundering Titan? Have you thought this through at all? Show and Tell has two important drawbacks compared to Tinker. One - it doesn't tutor. Two - it's symmetrical. There's a reason why Tinker is in every Vintage deck that plays blue. It's one of the most broken cards ever printed, and allows insanely fast wins. Sure, you need a second card - just play Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Chrome Mox, artifact lands, etc. and you're good.

EDIT: And I don't want to think about how absurd Painter-Stone would be with 4 Tinker. Lolz.

I think his point wasn't that Tinker wasn't broken, but that Natural Order and Show and Tell are just as broken.

Does a turn 3 10/10 Pro Everything sound like fun to you? Backed up by Force of Will and Misstep? How about a 3 mana 15/15 Flying Pro-Colored Spells Annihilator 6?

[GGoober]

TBH, a turn 1 Vial with Daze/FoW backup and slamming slimy osteichthyes (fish) is scarier than anything I've played in this format.

It's amazing how Fish can beat Zoo sometimes given the draws they get. Let's ban vial?

[Admiral_Arzar]

TBH, a turn 1 Vial with Daze/FoW backup and slamming slimy osteichthyes (fish) is scarier than anything I've played in this format.

It's amazing how Fish can beat Zoo sometimes given the draws they get. Let's ban vial?

Dude turn 1 3/3 kitties scare me. I think we should ban Wild Nacatl to neuter that ridiculous zoo deck that stomps all over me.

[menace13]

TBH, a turn 1 Vial with Daze/FoW backup and slamming slimy osteichthyes (fish) is scarier than anything I've played in this format.

It's amazing how Fish can beat Zoo sometimes given the draws they get. Let's ban vial?
You missed the boat, That deck is not even good, it just gets played too often because majority of people- in this case 10-15%- always pick it over "broken" decks.

[dontbiteitholmes]

This is called, "Missing the Boat". ZOMG Hive Mind didn't win a tournament?! It can't be the best deck.

Yeah, because that sounds a lot less stupid then, "OMG, Hive Mind got 3 top 8 spots in one large event, we need to start talking ban immediately because obviously Show and Tell now = Flash and Yawgmoth's Will."

[Jonathan Alexander]

Further, just because it might be the best deck in the format doesn't mean anything needs to be banned. James Rynkiewicz beat the deck (probably) the first time he faced it and he wasn't even playing Force Of Will.

[Muradin]

Run those fucking Red Elemental Blasts and beat that deck. Seriously, to me it ain't broken at all. People just hate losing to combo because if they do, it wasn't even a game and then start complaining.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Run those fucking Red Elemental Blasts and beat that deck. Seriously, to me it ain't broken at all. People just hate losing to combo because if they do, it wasn't even a game and then start complaining.

1000 times this.

[trivial_matters]

Show and Tell is a pretty sick card. Hive Mind.deck is beatable; results show that it isn't tearing everything up (check recent results: In July it had less top places than Maverick, Zoo, etc...). I don't think there's reason to panic yet.

For the record, I don't like Show and Tell as a card (oh look, I have a 15/15 tentacled monster on turn 2), so I wouldn't mind it getting banned eventually.

[rupus]

You missed the boat, That deck is not even good, it just gets played too often because majority of people- in this case 10-15%- always pick it over "broken" decks.

It actually is a very good deck. It can kill very quickly and plays a lot of very good disruption. However, the main reason it is the most played deck is that it is the cheapest "good" deck. Anyways, the reason hive mind is lame is because there's no good permanent hate for it. Teeg, canonist, and friends don't do much. Blue decks need to adapt. Gerry T's Team America* deck is a good example. Once blue decks have hive mind under control zoo can come out of hiding and biting the hand that feeds (the blue decks protecting them from degenerate combo).

As for comparing show and tell or natural order to tinker I think that's pretty silly. Tinker is blue and only costs 3 which gives it a big leg up over NO. Not to mention BSC wins in one swing as opposed to progenitus's slow 2 turn clock. Also, for show and tell to work you need to build your deck around it. Any blue deck can throw in 4 tinker and 1 BSC for an oops I win thing. They just need to play moxen or artifact lands or tops or trinket mage all of which are perfectly fine inclusions regardless of tinker's presence. I think it would be fun for a bit to see tinker unbanned so that Metalworker can be a real deck.

Eventually wizards will print a protean hulk that costs twice as much as the original and doesn't need to be sacrificed for an effect and at that point we will probably be right in calling for NO and show and tell to be banned. Or maybe a blue creature that when it comes into play taps all your opponent's permanents and empties their mana pool and makes them skip their untap phase. Also it makes their permanents come into play tapped, has hexproof, is indestructable, and prevents effects from forcing you to sacrifice permanents. And its ability can't be stifled. Maybe it could be called Magus of the Stasis or something. If wizards keeps putting anti reanimation clauses on dudes they probably should start doing anti show and tell clauses as well. Actually I wonder how much more devastating turn 1 reanimate Emrakul would be compared to Jin or Iona

*It bothers me a bit that SCG kept calling Gerry T's deck a BUG Homebrew when it was actually more similar to the original TA deck than some of the decks running around calling themselves TA have been.

EDIT: To clarify I don't really want Tinker to be unbanned nor do I think show and tell deserves to be banned at this point.

[Jonathan Alexander]

The reason the deck had less tops than Maverick is because Hive Mind is absolutely underplayed in Europe and there's a lot of Maverick over here. Anyway, if there is a problem, it's definitely Show And Tell and not Hive Mind. Show And Tell actually doubles the amount of winconditions they have and works as a ritual (plus it also fuels they alternate wincondition). It's kind of like Mystical Tutor in Reanimate thoiugh not actually that strong.

[Koby]

Eventually wizards will print a protean hulk that costs twice as much as the original and doesn't need to be sacrificed for an effect and at that point we will probably be right in calling for NO and show and tell to be banned. Or maybe a blue creature that when it comes into play taps all your opponent's permanents and empties their mana pool and makes them skip their untap phase. Also it makes their permanents come into play tapped, has hexproof, is indestructable, and prevents effects from forcing you to sacrifice permanents. And its ability can't be stifled. Maybe it could be called Magus of the Stasis or something. If wizards keeps putting anti reanimation clauses on dudes they probably should start doing anti show and tell clauses as well. Actually I wonder how much more devastating turn 1 reanimate Emrakul would be compared to Jin or Iona


If Commander aka EDH is any indicator; the time WotC will print another overpowered fatty that will break Show and Tell (again) will be in Innistrad.

[GGoober]

That deck is not even good, TLDR.

O'Rly? I guess a lot of people like playing a deck that is not even good that places pretty well and frequently. And I guess a deck that naturally is good against the color blue in the format isn't a good deck.

[rupus]

If Commander aka EDH is any indicator; the time WotC will print another overpowered fatty that will break Show and Tell (again) will be in Innistrad.

I was under the impression that they were going to start toning back creatures and upping the power levels of the other flavors of cards. I think BSC and Emrakul are the biggest fat we will see for a while.

EDIT: If anything it seems like Innistrad is going to make dredge and reanimator more broken (because they obviously aren't broken enough right now). Or maybe they'll continue this enchantment theme from M12 and make another enchanment that is more broken with show and tell than hive mind. Something like that creature I said except it would be an enchantment and called Gigastasis.

[Koby]

O'Rly? I guess a lot of people like playing a deck that is not even good that places pretty well and frequently. And I guess a deck that naturally is good against the color blue in the format isn't a good deck.

I thought that was the whole reason Maverick existed...
1) Played often? Check.
2) Good against blue? Check.
3) Isn't a good deck? Check.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I thought that was the whole reason Maverick existed...
1) Played often? Check.
2) Good against blue? Check.
3) Isn't a good deck? Check.

Maverick actually is a good deck, it's just that it's a worse Bant Aggro in most cases.

[rupus]

Maverick actually is a good deck, it's just that it's a worse Bant Aggro in most cases.

Maverick is to Bant as Eva Green is to Team America. That being said I still don't think Maverick is a good deck.

[Dsch]

As a maverick player, i really like the hive mind matchup (seriously). I play 4x Angels Grace in sb and karakas main. Of course game one is very unwinnable, but games 2 and 3 its pretty hard for them to win. Its all about prepare yourself to face your bad matchups. Trust me, its better than come to the source forum and whine.

[android]

Maybe I'm missing something but how are you barging through the 2-3 layer deep MM/FoW wall with REB or Angels Grace? I'm not seeing it. Even blue permission decks sometimes lose this battle and probably only come out on top due to also having Daze.

I'm not for or against SnT or Hive Mind, I'm just saying to win these counter battles, you need more than REB or Angels Grace. You're going to need some MM and some other free counters.

Maybe they should have printed a REB for 1 red phyrexian mana. I could get behind that.

edit: wait, I just thought about that. Worst idea ever posted. Blue would play it and it would be 10x better than MM.

[Richard Cheese]

You are missing that Angel's Grace is split second.

[android]

Okay, I'll give you the split second clause, but doesn't this enter into the Tarmogoyf is bad because it dies to removal argument? So what if you bring a card in from the sideboard that you may or may not draw that may or may not just result in them having a 4/4 giant in play (can't the deck pay for the pact or do they not run Volcanics?). I think if you're running 4 Angel's Grace in your sb, you've already lost.

[rupus]

I think if you're running 4 Angel's Grace in your sb, you've already lost.

This is very true...

unless you're playing Near-Death Experience combo of course.

[Richard Cheese]

Kinda depends. If they drop Hive Mind off SnT and attempt to go off, chances are they won't be able to pay for whatever pact they use, in which case Angel's Grace is a pretty good silver bullet. The problem is that you have to devote 3-4 SB slots to a card that really only fixes one matchup.

I'm with you that it's not really a solution, as I don't see what's stopping them from going the Monolith/hard cast route in game 3, just making sure they can pay for their own pacts. SCG Philly seems to provide some evidence (!=proof) that this is not the case, as Angels Grace is all over the top16 lists, but just as some suggest waiting a few months for the meta to adjust to a new deck before swinging the banhammer, I'd say wait a few months to see what Hive Mind does about the one card that really seems to give it any trouble.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I think if you're running 4 Angel's Grace in your sb, you've already lost.

And I think there's a good chance you win, in those circumstances. Hive Mind can't do shit to stop Angel's Grace, and it's not like Maverick gives a damn about a random 4/4 giant token. Devoting 4 slots to your worst matchup is perfectly fine - I've seen decks devote far more slots out of necessity.

[CorpT]

And I think there's a good chance you win, in those circumstances. Hive Mind can't do shit to stop Angel's Grace, and it's not like Maverick gives a damn about a random 4/4 giant token. Devoting 4 slots to your worst matchup is perfectly fine - I've seen decks devote far more slots out of necessity.

Chalice of the Void says hello.

[Koby]

Chalice of the Void says hello.

I'm still surprised people don't understand how Hive Mind works...

[Richard Cheese]

I'm still surprised people don't understand how Hive Mind works...

I believe he is implying that Chalice stops Ange's Grace, as a rebuttal to the previous poster stating that Hive Mind "can't do shit to stop Angel's Grace".

[CorpT]

I believe he is implying that Chalice stops Ange's Grace, as a rebuttal to the previous poster stating that Hive Mind "can't do shit to stop Angel's Grace".

Correct. I'm still surprised people don't understand how replies work...

[Koby]

I believe he is implying that Chalice stops Ange's Grace, as a rebuttal to the previous poster stating that Hive Mind "can't do shit to stop Angel's Grace".

I see, perhaps so. Or they could just drop Emrakul/Progenitus and win in a few turns anyway.

[Richard Cheese]

I see, perhaps so. Or they could just drop Emrakul/Progenitus and win in a few turns anyway.

Eh, Emrakul is significantly easier to deal with than Pacts. Tons of decks already run Karakas and KotR. In a deck already running sol-lands, I don't see why you wouldn't have Chalices in the Board.

[KevinTrudeau]

Invalidating your cantrips/discard spells while playing a card that doesn't interact with your three card combo doesn't seem very good. Just play Thoughtseize.

Is anyone else completely flabbergasted at the Survival-esque tone in this thread?

[Koby]

Eh, Emrakul is significantly easier to deal with than Pacts. Tons of decks already run Karakas and KotR. In a deck already running sol-lands, I don't see why you wouldn't have Chalices in the Board.

People keep saying that, but in practice it's harder to do. I've won more games using Angel's Grace against Hive Mind (the card), than I have beating a turn 2 Emrakul. You need to have the knight (you don't always) in your hand for Show and Tell. In a deck that relies on topdecks, that's pretty weak. Obviously you win those games when you have it, but I'm more worried about having Angel's Grace in the matchup than I am about having KotR.

[jrw1985]

I'm still surprised people don't understand how Hive Mind works...

It's that they don't understand how Chalice works. Chalice is very counter-intuitive in that it doesn't counter copies of spells, only spells cast. People are well aware that Hive Mind produces a copy, it's that Chalice won't counter copies that doesn't occur to them.

I be fair, WotC does this all the time in Magic. You can shoot any counterspell at a copy of a spell, yet the cards they have that blindly counters any spell can't counter a copy (Chalice, Counterbalance). It's strange, and doesn't work the way we've programmed ourselves to believe the game plays.

One I recently ran into that completely didn't work they way I assumed it would was Phyrexian Metamorph. Every other Shapeshifter I know of enters the battlefield as a creature. And every other card I know of that can change its card type retains its original card type, i.e. activating Man Lands, playing Opalescence, activating Karn, Silver Golem. So to have a card enter the battlefield without being the card type printed on it completely went over my head, and I thought it would always be a creature, even if it was tageting an artifact (I also hadn't noticed it was 0/0 at the time. I think I assumed it was 0/1 or 0/2).

[android]

And then there's replicate and storm copies. You can't explain that!

[jrw1985]

As far as banning Show and Tell, I don't think they should. SnT exists to make unplayable bombs playable. That's the only thing that makes it fun or useful, and it's also what makes Legacy a fun, diverse, vibrant format. If you ban SnT Reanimator gets smacked again, all the decks that have had a blast with Emrakul get smacked, and other combo decks that liked to get cute with transformational sideboarding get hampered. All to stop one degenerate combo deck.

Hive Mind isn't even the culprit. It was never designed to be a playable card. It was supposed to be for that one kitchen-table deck that your friends all hated because it made the game state too complicated but weird and funny shit would result from it. It was supposed to be a card you'd play while drinking.

But then folks realized a certain interaction with a family of Instants known as Pacts.

It is without a doubt in my mind that the real culprits of this power combo are the Pacts. And if the combo is degenerate and worthy of a banning, then it is the Pacts that should be singled out.

Why are the Pacts the real problem? Because without Pacts, you would have to pay mana to cast your spell to be copied. And you wouldn't have a dozen spells in your deck with auto-win conditions. That would actually give your opponent a turn to try and answer the Hive Mind.

And you don't need to ban all of them, just one: Pact of Negation. One less free counterspell, one less blue card to pitch to Force, one less win condition in the deck. It's a seldom used card that I've only ever seen in the occasional ANT deck, a year ago. If Hivemind is a problem because it lets you abuse Pacts, only 1 Pact actually allows you to force your combo through, and that's Pact of Negation. Legacy as a format is already overrun with free counterspells. Do we really need there to be one that also acts as a half turn clock? Ban Pact of Negation if need be.

If SnT Hivemind is really becoming a problem let's just ban an enabler in Pact of Negation before killing the deck. If, after that, the deck still constitutes a format warping threat, then ban Hivemind. But don't ban SnT and fuck over a huge slew of decks that do crazy shit and make Legacy more fun and interesting.

[RainbowPenguin]

@ jrw1985: I (and a lot of other people, I think) agree that the whole "ban the enablers"-policy makes legacy a less fun format, even if it does make for a shorter ban list.
However, I don't like the idea of banning Pact of Negation. It is an interesting, alternative counterspell for combo decks that don't run stuff like Lion's Eye Diamond. Presently, a lot of High Tide decks run it, and it could perhaps be used in something like Cephalid Breakfast, or the combo decks of the future, of which we have no idea today. It also allows for very intense games, since you often have to gauge the risk of losing to your pact vs. the risk of waiting a turn more.

[menace13]

O'Rly? I guess a lot of people like playing a deck that is not even good that places pretty well and frequently. And I guess a deck that naturally is good against the color blue in the format isn't a good deck.
Exactly why they should not ban the deck with the most top 16's and only ban SnT!!1111one!!eleven!1!!!

And while I am in the mood to bitch about decks that place more than SnT builds; Zoo and Maverick should also be banned according to TC decks stats. Oh, wait let's add StoneBlade decks too as it took the #1 spot this month.

[SMR0079]

How about this - instead of starting these pointless threads you start a " cards to watch thread" that include a list of cards and decks that are on the radar for being overpowered or warping the format. Then give it at least 3 months worth of data before you start screaming that the sky is falling.

I agree that if any card deserves to be on a watch list Show n Tell fits the bill, but Legacy is a complex system that moves slower then other formats in its evolution. Not a single copy of Show n Tell in the maindeck of any of the top 16 last weekend should be enough to question this knee jerk reactionism.

On top of that I challenge the notion that Hive Mind is simply to narrow to hate for non-counter based strategies. It's no more narrow then say Dredge which requries at least 4 graveyard hate cards for aggro to really be effective agaisnt, yet it has become acceptted in the format that you simply need grave yard hate or risk randomley loesing.

The real problem, and the beautey of the format as well, is that it's simply to diverse to hate out all of the competetve startegies. This is the fundemental reason why a new combo deck that is consisitent can do so well when it first comes on the scene, and why if your not playing combo controling the stack is your next best option, altough a properly built Junk deck can do well if thats your sort of thing. When you are an aggro deck that must maintain threat density and limited to 15 sideboard cards how are you going to hate all three major combo variants: those that play lots of spells in a turn, those that use the graveyard, and now a two card combo with counters and flexability? You can't. You have to depend on the control decks keeping them in check, and prey on them, while choosing which hate you want to roll the dice with and pray you don't get paired agaisnt the combo deck you don't have hate for.

[Koby]

On top of that I challenge the notion that Hive Mind is simply to narrow to hate for non-counter based strategies. It's no more narrow then say Dredge which requries at least 4 graveyard hate cards for aggro to really be effective agaisnt, yet it has become acceptted in the format that you simply need grave yard hate or risk randomley loesing.


Comparing interactions on the Stack versus interaction with Graveyard is disingenuous. Mostly blue has the ability to interact against spells. Almost every color has the ability to interact with the graveyard (as well as numerous artifacts and 0cc traps). Furthermore, there are many more decks that utilize the graveyard for profit - Dredge, Cephalid Breakfast, Four Horsemen, Aggro Loam, Tarmogoyf/KotR/Terravore, Grim Lavamancer, etc. Hive Mind demands a very specific answer, of which only two cards help defeat outright. Leyline will certainly help defeat graveyard decks, but so will at least 10+ other utilitarian cards as well.

One evidence (not equal to proof) of a tournament being well prepared for the boogeyman is not reason enough to discount legitimate concern of a degenerate combo.

To quote my opponent at yesterday's tournament playing Hive Mind -
"I've only put this deck together this week, and I haven't dropped a game. You're my first game loss." At the end of round 4.

Brainless combo is mind-numbingly brainless.

EDIT: Now, if better answers to this combo were to be printed, I might sway my opinion. As it stands, entirely every spell-based solution to Hive Mind is self-defeating.

[KevinTrudeau]

Comparing interactions on the Stack versus interaction with Graveyard is disingenuous. Mostly blue has the ability to interact against spells. Almost every color has the ability to interact with the graveyard (as well as numerous artifacts and 0cc traps). Furthermore, there are many more decks that utilize the graveyard for profit - Dredge, Cephalid Breakfast, Four Horsemen, Aggro Loam, Tarmogoyf/KotR/Terravore, Grim Lavamancer, etc. Hive Mind demands a very specific answer, of which only two cards help defeat outright. Leyline will certainly help defeat graveyard decks, but so will at least 10+ other utilitarian cards as well.

One evidence (not equal to proof) of a tournament being well prepared for the boogeyman is not reason enough to discount legitimate concern of a degenerate combo.

To quote my opponent at yesterday's tournament playing Hive Mind -
"I've only put this deck together this week, and I haven't dropped a game. You're my first game loss." At the end of round 4.

Brainless combo is mind-numbingly brainless.

EDIT: Now, if better answers to this combo were to be printed, I might sway my opinion. As it stands, entirely every spell-based solution to Hive Mind is self-defeating.

Did Survival ever drop a tournament even though people were well prepared (far beyond this case) for it? Did Caw Blade, Jund, Faeries, or Affinity ever drop a tournament? It's possible the people at the last Open didn't know of Hive Mind yet and its potential power and didn't play it for that reason, but I highly doubt that.

The spell-based solutions to Hive Mind that aren't self-defeating are: Thoughtseize, Duress, Hymn to Tourach, Daze, Spell Pierce, Cursecatcher, Stifle, Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, et al. Hive Mind is a three card combo (Grim Monolith/Show and Tell->Hive Mind->Pact), which means disruption should be better against it than against the combo norm.

[Dsch]

Kinda depends. If they drop Hive Mind off SnT and attempt to go off, chances are they won't be able to pay for whatever pact they use, in which case Angel's Grace is a pretty good silver bullet. The problem is that you have to devote 3-4 SB slots to a card that really only fixes one matchup.

I dont think 3-4 slots to your worst matchup is a problem. And also, you have to consider that Angels Grace most of the time wins the game. Just like that.
Maverick has a good performance against most of the field, having trouble only with those kinds of combo. It happens that the Hive Mind deck is the most played combo deck nowadays (at least in my meta). So those four slots do not hurt me, at all.

[SMR0079]

Comparing interactions on the Stack versus interaction with Graveyard is disingenuous. Mostly blue has the ability to interact against spells. Almost every color has the ability to interact with the graveyard (as well as numerous artifacts and 0cc traps). Furthermore, there are many more decks that utilize the graveyard for profit - Dredge, Cephalid Breakfast, Four Horsemen, Aggro Loam, Tarmogoyf/KotR/Terravore, Grim Lavamancer, etc. Hive Mind demands a very specific answer, of which only two cards help defeat outright. Leyline will certainly help defeat graveyard decks, but so will at least 10+ other utilitarian cards as well.

It would be if I was comparing it to the stack, but I was comparing grave yard hate which is very narrow to specific hate targetting combo peices.


One evidence (not equal to proof) of a tournament being well prepared for the boogeyman is not reason enough to discount legitimate concern of a degenerate combo..


Correct, but it should be sufficent to quelch the knee jerk reactionsim that often dominates these forums. See my original post again for how I think th eissue can be handled in a more responsible fashion.



To quote my opponent at yesterday's tournament playing Hive Mind -
"I've only put this deck together this week, and I haven't dropped a game. You're my first game loss." At the end of round 4.

Brainless combo is mind-numbingly brainless.

EDIT: Now, if better answers to this combo were to be printed, I might sway my opinion. As it stands, entirely every spell-based solution to Hive Mind is self-defeating.

Except that HiveMind is not mind-numbingly brainless. No it's not Storm combo, but it's not Zoo either. I played 6 Hive mind decks on the way to the finals of SCG Seattle, winning 4-6 before losing to Ben Swartz in the finals. Rest assured, their was a signifcant difference in the play skill when comparing Ben Schwartz or Chris Van Meter as compared to my other 4 opponents. At a high level of competition (even a SCG open) skill is a major component in analyzing the power of this deck. At your local venue, or any unprepared opponent for that matter, Hive Mind may seem like it wins mindlessly but as players become aware of how to intereact with it this will change as well.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

If anything, why the hell wouldn't they just ban Hive Mind for being overly annoying? Show and Tell, while it does make a few decks a little too easy to pilot, is basically a fun card (although the more degenerate permanent-based spaghetti monsters they print that nearly win outright when they resolve, I suspect the less 'fun' this card will become). Hive Mind, on the other hand, has only one legitimate use in this format, which is to break what I assume was supposed to be a fair cycle of spells (the Pact cycle.) And in terms of game mechanics, it's such a narrow combo that it's pretty difficult for hate to be good against Hive Mind and still decent against other decks.

I would much rather see effective hate printed (that at the same time wouldn't drive the deck out of existence,) and put all these complaints to bed. And I do worry that Legacy players are getting a little too ban-happy, which might be pushing WotC in the wrong direction... But as far as bans go, I really do think Hive Mind is currently the less "fair" card, even though what it does is admittedly only broke-ish in one way, whereas S&T is going to remain a very breakable card as long as it's legal.

[voltron00x]

One of my concerns with the banning of Mystical Tutor was that it would start a ripple effect whereby people clamored for the banning of cards in any deck that did well for more than one or two tournaments. Survival was justifiable, but Show and Tell? Really? Merfolk had a much better run earlier this year but I don’t recall people clamoring to ban Lord of Atlantis; Natural Order decks have done pretty well in 2011 but no one wants to ban Natural Order. Why can’t Hive Mind win a few tournaments? It’s not like the deck is making up 50% of top 16s like Survival was at times, or even showing in numbers as strong as Merfolk has at some points.

I just don’t get it.

[Admiral_Arzar]

One of my concerns with the banning of Mystical Tutor was that it would start a ripple effect whereby people clamored for the banning of cards in any deck that did well for more than one or two tournaments. Survival was justifiable, but Show and Tell? Really? Merfolk had a much better run earlier this year but I don’t recall people clamoring to ban Lord of Atlantis; Natural Order decks have done pretty well in 2011 but no one wants to ban Natural Order. Why can’t Hive Mind win a few tournaments? It’s not like the deck is making up 50% of top 16s like Survival was at times, or even showing in numbers as strong as Merfolk has at some points.

I just don’t get it.

This is what I call "ZOMG COMBO ARGH" syndrome. People hate combo, so when a legitimate combo deck does well, they all clamor for bannings rather than figure out how to answer it (or just stop playing decks that can't interact with it until the deck fades back into the shadows). This doesn't really happen with aggro or control decks because it's perceived as "OK" when one of them does exceedingly well (the ridiculous run of Merfolk over the last year or two is enough evidence for that in itself). However, for some reason, (and I partially blame R&D's stance for this) people simply can't accept a combo DTB. It's like deck-type racism.

And yes, I think you're right about the "ripple effect." Sometimes I worry that I'm going to wake up to find LED banned or something just because of a chorus of bitching. Wizards does not need much provocation with regards to combo decks, because they hate them as much as the whiners in this thread (and have admitted to it).

EDIT: I wonder how many of the posters in this thread would actually admit to hating combo as an archetype.

[android]

I'm not one for bans in Legacy outside of Power/Ante/super degenerate cards. Having said that, I'm also one who truly hates when, despite the fact that we have 10s of thousands of cards in the pool, half the decks run the same 75.

I wouldn't mind if they added a restricted list to Legacy allowing us to play singletons of Mystic, Survival, definitely not Tinker, Hermit Druid, Balance, etc. We already have the "oops, I win" in the format with a number of other cards that are not currently banned. My only fear is that by allowing these powerful singletons that the exact thing I despise (everyone running the same decks) would become even more pervasive. How do we go about allowing the best cards in Magic to exist in the format without it becoming Vintage?

On the subject of people whining about losing to combo. It's funny because I have some friends who haven't yet grasped the fundamentals of deck construction and still insist that they don't want to build in redundancy to solidify their decks strategic goals. They are still building theme decks and choosing cards by the picture, that kind of shit. Anyhow, to get to my point, it doesn't really matter what deck I beat them with; aggro, combo, control. No matter what, my deck is unfair and ruins the game of Magic. Something to think about. It's not the combo deck that makes Magic unfun, it's your inability to adapt to it that makes Magic unfun.

[Admiral_Arzar]

It's not the combo deck that makes Magic unfun, it's your inability to adapt to it that makes Magic unfun.

An interesting way to put it, and I think you're right. This explains the age-old question of why it's usually aggro players that whine about strong combo decks. Note that I said "usually," as soon as you get a combo deck that can beat blue (Spiral Tide, Hive Mind), the blue players join in.

EDIT: For all those complaining - sideboards exist to shore up awful matchups. I have a friend who plays Zoo and obviously gets crushed by Hive Mind preboard. Then he boards in a ton of well-chosen hate cards (most of which are applicable to a lot of combo decks and/or blue) and completely turns the matchup around. THINK, don't whine.

[Nessaja]

Could you tell me what Zoo hate deals with both Show & Tell for Hivemind and Show and Tell for Emrakul?

The problem with these discussions is that too many people shout that "it's fine" but don't give concrete evidence.

I'm guessing you're talking about REB's but that's awefull narrow hate against a deck that runs far more counters. So lets hear it, what sideboard does your friend use? I'll test for myself if 1. It gives a positive MU against Hive mind and 2. It still gives enough board flexibility against the rest of the field. I strongly doubt it.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Could you tell me what Zoo hate deals with both Show & Tell for Hivemind and Show and Tell for Emrakul?

The problem with these discussions is that too many people shout that "it's fine" but don't give concrete evidence.

I'm guessing you're talking about REB's but that's awefull narrow hate against a deck that runs far more counters. So lets hear it, what sideboard does your friend use? I'll test for myself if 1. It gives a positive MU against Hive mind and 2. It still gives enough board flexibility against the rest of the field. I strongly doubt it.

I will not be disclosing his tech on here as he's going to play at a major tournament soon. I did see him win five consecutive games against the deck postboard, but for now I guess you'll just have to trust me. As for REB being "awful narrow hate," I hear that the color blue is pretty fucking good.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I will not be disclosing his tech on here as he's going to play at a major tournament soon. I did see him win five consecutive games against the deck postboard, but for now I guess you'll just have to trust me. As for REB being "awful narrow hate," I hear that the color blue is pretty fucking good.

Mental Misstep.

[sdematt]

The problem with Hive Mind is the following:

-There's very cards in Legacy where if it lands, you lose immediately. Even Emrakul gives you 1-2 turns to be dealt with, or you can drop a permanent off SnT that will deal with it (Knight, Karakas, Ring, Shriekmaw, etc.). In this case, if they have a Pact and you have 0 counterspells for SnT, and they drop Hive Mind, chances are you're going to lose.

-If you're not playing blue, it's really difficult to beat, but you could say this generally about combo.

-Gaddock Teeg doesn't help if you aren't playing blue. Against regular Storm, at least it's better than nothing.

-Mental Misstep made this deck better by being able to counter Spell Pierce and such, and by slowing the format down. Daze was usually cut for MM, so that also hurts, format-wide.

-They have 8 free counters. During the counter-war to land the Hive Mind/play SnT, Hive Mind has more free counters than you do, plain and simple. I remember another combo deck playing Pact a while ago, but it wasn't as good, since you needed more cards to win. Here, you basically need SnT + one of 8 cards (Mind or Emrakul) and possibly one of 7-9 Pacts (or however many they play).

------

Now, to be perfectly honest, I think the deck is good now only due to the decline of Daze/Rise of MM, and the attention the deck has gotten (most people brushed it off as terrible). I'm sure you could have sleeved up a similar list 2 years ago and done well, but again, most people didn't take it seriously.

I'm not personally saying anything should be banned, but, SnT is really what's making this deck powerful. If they had to hardcast it, or SnT cost 4, I think it'd be much better. Essentially, no more turn 2 wins.

It's also a pain in the ass as a non-blue player that my answers come down to Sundial and Grace, and Grace is better. So, basically, they just have to start boarding Chalice @ 1 to profit? Seems a little out of whack.

-Matt

[Nessaja]

I will not be disclosing his tech on here as he's going to play at a major tournament soon. I did see him win five consecutive games against the deck postboard, but for now I guess you'll just have to trust me. As for REB being "awful narrow hate," I hear that the color blue is pretty fucking good.

Before MM was printed.

This super secret tech is the kind of bullshit talk that degenerates discussions like these. I If you dont have anything to contribute then dont post at all.

[Gheizen64]

Azar you didn't post anything relevant but whine about people who whine while calling anyone who has a different opinion a retard.

It's also interesting to note that no one here actually whined but for the major part posted a constructive analysis about the situation and said that "the format need more time", so you're actually just vocalizing about something non-existent and derailing the thread hoping to get replies angry at you because you're just bitching. And actually, you successfully did so since i'm now actually pissed that what was once a reasonable thread with people debating in a civil manner has turned into a shithole once again thanks to the vocal minorities that can't discern concern from whining (or actually can do so but they just troll for the love of it).
This is also not the first time you call everyone else a retard while not presenting even a spec of an argument behind your positions, so i'll just have to add you to my ignore list since i'm not able to actually ignore your whining without its help.

EDIT: seems like there's no ignore list feature on this forum. Oh well, i'll survive.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Before MM was printed.

This super secret tech is the kind of bullshit talk that degenerates discussions like these. I If you dont have anything to contribute then dont post at all.

My point is that the sky isn't falling if Zoo can beat Hive Mind postboard. However, you're free to think whatever you like.

EDIT: If people only posted on the source when they had something intelligent to contribute, there wouldn't be many posts on the source.




It's also a pain in the ass as a non-blue player that my answers come down to Sundial and Grace, and Grace is better. So, basically, they just have to start boarding Chalice @ 1 to profit? Seems a little out of whack.

-Matt

Those are the only two answers that stop their combo cold, yes. However, if you're playing aggro, you don't really need to do that - you just need to delay them. So things like Ethersworn Canonist (combined with enchantment destruction) and Thorn of Amethyst actually gain some value. It's quite similar to beating Storm with Zoo, you don't need to lock them out - you only need to slow their clock to where it's slower than yours. Since Hive Mind is fundamentally slower than TES, this actually isn't horrendously difficult.


Azar you didn't post anything relevant but whine about people who whine while calling anyone who has a different opinion a retard.


This is also not the first time you call everyone else a retard while not presenting even a spec of an argument behind your positions, so i'll just have to add you to my ignore list since i'm not able to actually ignore your whining without its help.

EDIT: seems like there's no ignore list feature on this forum. Oh well, i'll survive.

You have been trolled sir.

[android]

I think there are plenty of cards that Zoo can bring it to at least increase the odds. You can do the forced parity cards like Thorn of Amethyst where it basically nullifies their ability to protect the combo for free while still allowing Zoo to play it's cheap unfair creatures. Maybe I'm wrong in interpreting the rules here but wouldn't ToA affect the alternate cc? At the very least, it pushes them back a turn and just about kills their counter game. I don't play Zoo so I don't really know how bad of an idea this is but if I were the guy holding Hive Mind, all the sudden the 6 mana win con becomes 8 mana plus counter taxes. I wouldn't play a deck that required 8+ mana to "maybe" win on turn 5.

edit: I guess this was covered while I was writing.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I think there are plenty of cards that Zoo can bring it to at least increase the odds.

From what I've gathered, that's the key with fast aggro. You bring in a bunch of speed-bumps (which need not be all tailored specifically to the hivemind matchup) with a few silver bullets like the Knight/Karakas plan against Emrakul. This strategy often gets there, especially as it's not like their hand is going to be a protected turn 2 kill every game (people forget that in these kind of discussions). The strategy is basically the same as it would be against a Doomsday storm deck with an alternate Emrakul kill condition - the hate cards just might be slightly different.

If you're playing black, of course, it gets a lot easier. Large amounts of discard is problematic for Hive Mind, although they of course have Leyline (but you should probably have some sort of Enchantment destruction anyways). Extirpate is also hilarious when they go for Intuition on your end step.

[Nessaja]

My point is that the sky isn't falling if Zoo can beat Hive Mind postboard. However, you're free to think whatever you like.
You're not making a point of you don't bring actual argumentation to the table. Right now you're just derailing the discussion without bringing anything to the table.

Unlike TES, Hive Mind doesn't care about its life total until the very last point of damage. This is such a significant difference. Considering the amount of time a Hive Mind player has against a Zoo player when a turn 2 Thorn of Amethyst is cast I wouldn't be worried about it as a Hive Mind player.

Note, I'm not even against the banning of Hive Mind. I believe Dream Halls is a stronger deck actually. Show and Tell doesn't deserve banning right now either but like SotF and Mystical Tutor it will get to that point eventually. Pretty much inevitable.

[kiblast]

Ok. The deck is regularly underplayed in Europe, or at least in Italy, so I could not gather much information regarding this matchup. And I was not interested in doing so. I mainly play Landeed (or Jacestill or Bug Still or whatever you call it) and today I had a fairly intensive testing against a friend of mine (he only plays combo) who has beaten me 4 times in a row simply by assembling the deck. He has next to nothing experience with Hive Mind ( although he has a fairly good experience with most combo decks, like Ant, Tes, DDFT,Aluren, etc.). I don't think Hive Mind deserves a lot of testing to be played accurately, but I think it's relevant that my friend never played the deck before, and still was able to crush me many times in a row.

My combo hate package post sb is:

4 Extirpate
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Vendilion Clique
1-2 Spell Pierce

As for maindeck, I think Landeed offers some of the best counter package available:

4 Fow
4 Misstep
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell.

Still, I was unable to win a single match against HM. I'd say the single card that makes the MU in their favor is Pact of Negation. I've also seen him bring Leyline of Sanctity post sb to nullify my discard spells.
Clique+ Mishra's Factory beatdown (usually a 4-5 turn clock) is not fast enough to win after you have won the first counter war / after you discarded their threats and wasteland'ed their Tombs. They can recover too fast.
I'm really scared by this matchup as I'll be attending a big event in Sept/Oct in Milan and, given the presence of european players, I highly think Hive Mind will be a serious pain in the ass as it is really well placed in this meta.

The only gameplan I think it works against them is to Misstep as much Ponders and Brainstorm you can, while using Wasteland and Jace's fateseal to buy time until your Ancestral Vision resolves, or until you can set a Standstill safely.

I still think Extirpate is one of the best tools to fight HM.* But you need some seriously fast clock at the same time. I'm thinking of adding 2 Tombstalkers to further increase the clock ( Stalker+ Mishra's is a 2-3 turn clock.)

EDIT:*for blue decks.

[troopatroop]

Extirpate is never any good at stopping anything, because it's an awful magic card. I'm just gonna come out and say that.


From the sounds of it, the only good hate cards are REB and Pyroblast in Red. At least they're good against Merfolk as well.

[IcedNeonFlames]

IMO, if anything in the HiveMind deck should get the ax IF (and only if) WOTC decides to kill that deck is the card Hive Mind. Show and Tell is an enabler. Hive Mind is what changes the rules of the game. Everything else in the deck is geared towards getting it ASAP.

[kiblast]

Extirpate is never any good at stopping anything, because it's an awful magic card. I'm just gonna come out and say that.



Extirpate is never any good at stopping anything by itself. This is obvious. But for blue decks not playing Red for Reb or White for Meddling Mage, is still a very versatile card.

[ajfennewald]

Could you tell me what Zoo hate deals with both Show & Tell for Hivemind and Show and Tell for Emrakul?


This is not what he is talking about but in the version of zoo with Knights main deck karakas plaus some angles grace would be pretty solid. And zoo often has reb and teeg/canonist in the sideboard. Also zoo is only a turn or so slower than hive mind so you really only have to disrupt them 1-1.5 turns.

[troopatroop]

Extirpate is never any good at stopping anything by itself. This is obvious. But for blue decks not playing Red for Reb or White for Meddling Mage, is still a very versatile card.

Nope, because then you're spending 2!!! cards to stop something... maybe. That's fairly awful.

[kiblast]

Nope, because then you're spending 2!!! cards to stop something... maybe. That's fairly awful.

For a deck which doesn't have a very fast clock it's important to know that a certain card (ex: Loam, Ichorid, Show and Tell, or even Force of Will, or Maelstrom Pulse/ Vindicate) is not in opponent's deck anymore while you are building up Jace's fatality... Almost every Landeed deck usually run between 2-3 Extirpate in sb (lately I'm trying 4 but I'll surely go down to 3 again), please note that I'm not suggesting its use in any blue deck, but many blue decks ( esperblade, UWx) use it successfully. And against Hive Mind is a nice card to have in at least 2 copies. Did I mention that the random Extirpate on Intuition targets usually wins games alone? or at least really hurts the HM player?

[Fossil4182]

I think this whole thread is an over reaction and is just another representation of Legacy alarmists at work. It seems that every time a deck appears to be dominate based on very synergistic interactions or combos (Mystical Tutor, High Tide, and to a great extent Survival), that people seem to think a card should be banned. The reality for Magic is that a balanced metagame does not mean a stagnate one. Just because your pet deck that you think should be viable can't post a decent win percentage against a perceived dominate deck doesn't mean WotC should ban a card to make your deck viable again. The reality is that metagames shift and if you don't shift accordingly, you're going to lose. While WotC can tout this aura of meta game were any decks is viable, the reality is that any deck is viable assuming the metagame is right for the deck to be competitive. So wake to the reality that if you're worried about a combo match up, playing a deck that does not have a lot of disruptive elements and controlling cards probably isn't going to cut it.

In the specific case of Show & Tell/HiveMind, what results are you citing that represent Show & Tell/Hive Mind as being a dominate deck to the level that it ought to be banned? Out of the listed SCG tournaments from the past three months:

7/30 Pittsburgh Open (Zero)
7/24 Seattle Open (Four)
7/17 Cincinnati Open (One)
6/26 Baltimore Open (Zero)
6/12 Denver Open (Three)
6/4 Indianapolis Invitational (Zero)
6/5 Indianapolis Open (One)
5/22 Louisville Open (Zero)
5/15 Orlando Open (Zero)
5/1 Charlotte Open (Zero)

There was a grand total of 9 Hive Mind decks in the top 16. That's 6% of the total top 16 finishes in the last three months (I did not factor the Invitational in). What's the problem here? Yes, the Seattle Open had four in the top 16, and the Denver Open had three in the top sixteen, but so what. NO RUG and Merfolk represent much larger percentages of Top 16's and have shown up in greater numbers. The truth is that most magic players like the game to be interactive. Combo decks decks are not interactive in the traditional sense. However, WotC has recognized the necessity for decks that win via "combo" and having Hive Mind at only 6% of the metagame is not going to be grounds for banning a card in the deck.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Extirpate is never any good at stopping anything, because it's an awful magic card. I'm just gonna come out and say that.


From the sounds of it, the only good hate cards are REB and Pyroblast in Red. At least they're good against Merfolk as well.

Extirpate is the best card ever at what it does. Yeah you're not going to win many Dredge matchups with it, but combined with discard it can rip a combo deck to shreds, it's the only real answer to Loam that doesn't involve getting lucky or hoping they misplay, and it can shine in control matchups depending on your deck.

In the matchup vs. Hive Mind it can nullify Intuition and if you make them discard one of their 2 real wincons you can effectively cut their deck in half.

[troopatroop]

For a deck which doesn't have a very fast clock it's important to know that a certain card (ex: Loam, Ichorid, Show and Tell, or even Force of Will, or Maelstrom Pulse/ Vindicate) is not in opponent's deck anymore while you are building up Jace's fatality... Almost every Landeed deck usually run between 2-3 Extirpate in sb (lately I'm trying 4 but I'll surely go down to 3 again), please note that I'm not suggesting its use in any blue deck, but many blue decks ( esperblade, UWx) use it successfully. And against Hive Mind is a nice card to have in at least 2 copies. Did I mention that the random Extirpate on Intuition targets usually wins games alone? or at least really hurts the HM player?

So basically, the BUG Landstill players in Italy all play Extirpate, so it's got to be right!

Extirpate is one of the worst magic cards to play. Honestly, why would a deck with Counterspells be afraid of any of the cards you mentioned, other than Life from the Loam. That's the only example where Extirpate has value over Counterspell or Spell Pierce or something. Yes you can snipe Intuition or its targets, but that means that you either countered something (it was already dealt with), or it resolved (and you're in bad shape). Yes you can Thoughtseize it first, but Extirpating after that is just awful, putting you 2 cards deep.

Standstill decks may appear to get away with the card disadvantage, and maybe they truly can, but putting yourself a card down in any situation is fundamentally bad. Extirpate will always do that to you. I will never understand how this card is so misevaluated, but you can't save everyone! I would sooner play Surgical Extraction for Loam, because at least Extraction can stop reanimator sometimes while tapped out.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Standstill decks may appear to get away with the card disadvantage, and maybe they truly can, but putting yourself a card down in any situation is fundamentally bad. Extirpate will always do that to you. I will never understand how this card is so misevaluated, but you can't save everyone! I would sooner play Surgical Extraction for Loam, because at least Extraction can stop reanimator sometimes while tapped out.

Yes, Force of Will is awful, don't play it. So is using Dark Ritual to accelerate into awesome plays. Being a card down is bad, every time. Also, "Surgical Extraction targeting Life from the Loam." "In response, cycle *insert cycling land here*, Dredge Loam." Nice Extraction, bro.

[troopatroop]

Yes, Force of Will is awful, don't play it. So is using Dark Ritual to accelerate into awesome plays. Being a card down is bad, every time. Also, "Surgical Extraction targeting Life from the Loam." "In response, cycle *insert cycling land here*, Dredge Loam." Nice Extraction, bro.

Force has become a mediocre card in post SFM Legacy. Some decks can afford to play it, many cannot.

Darl Ritual has vanished from anything not combo, Sui is dead

Cycling lands require mana, and that is obvious. If they cycle, Extraction in response?

I stand by what I said. It's not that you always lose a card down, but you want that to count. Force stops something! That's relevant, and very good for 0 mana. Extirpate takes something that has been dealt with, and for 1 whole black mana and a card takes the 3 other copies from their deck away. You'll never know if you would've seen those cards, or whether you could've won anyway with a different card, or if it mattered at all. All you'll know, is that you're a card down for that reality, and you decided that's what you wanted before the game started. I could never want such a situation for myself, personally.

[sdematt]

Extirpate is fine against Intuition based decks. If you hit their Show and Tell, you're getting some value by slowing them down and seeing their hand. If you hit Hive Mind, that's one thing you don't have to worry about.

It's a "bad" card because it doesn't directly affect the board state. It doesn't answer a card facing you down on the table, but it prevents shenanigans later on. Like with Combo and IGG loop: Extirpating their LED's or AdN/Tutor in the yard is actually a good play. So is Extirpating away Grindstone (against the Painter deck playing TA or Intuition)/SnT/a combo piece, especially when combined with discard, but more importantly, counters.

-Matt

[kiblast]

So basically, the BUG Landstill players in Italy all play Extirpate, so it's got to be right!

Ok, I hate to act like an idiot, but just by checking TC decks before speaking, you would have found that:

Mr. Masayuki Yasuda played 2 Surgical Extraction in his sb at the Japanese Legacy Champs, finishing first (out of?-no data)
Mr. Benjamin Stepka played 3 Extirpate in his sb at the SCG.com Legacy Open - Denver, finishing 4/117.
Mr. David Frerard played 4 Extirpate in his sb at Legacy Vernon (France) finishing 8/68.

And many others (both italians or foreigners) played Surgical / Extirpate. Checking the last 10 UBG lists on TCdecks, there's an average of roughly 1.7/2 Extirpate in sideboards.

Still I don't see a connection with the nationality though.



Extirpate is one of the worst magic cards to play.

I thought that was Vizzerdrix.



Yes you can snipe Intuition or its targets, but that means that you either countered something (it was already dealt with), or it resolved (and you're in bad shape). Yes you can Thoughtseize it first, but Extirpating after that is just awful, putting you 2 cards deep.

If I counter or discard their first threat, what insures me that they will not find a second threat ( speaking of Hive Mind: a second Intuition, or a second SnT,or another Hive Mind when they have enough mana to hardcast it) before I find my second answer? considering that they (the combo deck) are faster than me (control player) at finding things in their deck?



Standstill decks may appear to get away with the card disadvantage, and maybe they truly can, but putting yourself a card down in any situation is fundamentally bad. Extirpate will always do that to you. I will never understand how this card is so misevaluated, but you can't save everyone! I would sooner play Surgical Extraction for Loam, because at least Extraction can stop reanimator sometimes while tapped out.

Yeah it's card disadvantage, but I don't see the problem when you suffer this disadvantage to take a long time advantage on your opponent. See Extirpate as an insurance for long games, or games involving opponent with Sensei's Divining Top on the table, or playing a great number of cantrips/ tutors (such as Hive Mind does.). Most control decks have a lot of answers, but they're slow at finding them unless you are holding a Brainstorm. Extirpate is an immediate answer for some of the future threats you could not have found an answer in time. There's nothing wrong in running it,although I respect your position if you simply dislike the card and how it works.

EDIT: Please note that in times when everyone and his mother is playing Missteps, there's next to no advantage in playing Surgical over Extirpate, unless you don't have B sources in your mana base.

[voltron00x]

I think this whole thread is an over reaction and is just another representation of Legacy alarmists at work. It seems that every time a deck appears to be dominate based on very synergistic interactions or combos (Mystical Tutor, High Tide, and to a great extent Survival), that people seem to think a card should be banned. The reality for Magic is that a balanced metagame does not mean a stagnate one. Just because your pet deck that you think should be viable can't post a decent win percentage against a perceived dominate deck doesn't mean WotC should ban a card to make your deck viable again. The reality is that metagames shift and if you don't shift accordingly, you're going to lose. While WotC can tout this aura of meta game were any decks is viable, the reality is that any deck is viable assuming the metagame is right for the deck to be competitive. So wake to the reality that if you're worried about a combo match up, playing a deck that does not have a lot of disruptive elements and controlling cards probably isn't going to cut it.

In the specific case of Show & Tell/HiveMind, what results are you citing that represent Show & Tell/Hive Mind as being a dominate deck to the level that it ought to be banned? Out of the listed SCG tournaments from the past three months:

7/30 Pittsburgh Open (Zero)
7/24 Seattle Open (Four)
7/17 Cincinnati Open (One)
6/26 Baltimore Open (Zero)
6/12 Denver Open (Three)
6/4 Indianapolis Invitational (Zero)
6/5 Indianapolis Open (One)
5/22 Louisville Open (Zero)
5/15 Orlando Open (Zero)
5/1 Charlotte Open (Zero)

There was a grand total of 9 Hive Mind decks in the top 16. That's 6% of the total top 16 finishes in the last three months (I did not factor the Invitational in). What's the problem here? Yes, the Seattle Open had four in the top 16, and the Denver Open had three in the top sixteen, but so what. NO RUG and Merfolk represent much larger percentages of Top 16's and have shown up in greater numbers. The truth is that most magic players like the game to be interactive. Combo decks decks are not interactive in the traditional sense. However, WotC has recognized the necessity for decks that win via "combo" and having Hive Mind at only 6% of the metagame is not going to be grounds for banning a card in the deck.

I strongly endorse this post and/or line of thinking / worldview.

Well done.

[troopatroop]

I strongly endorse this post and/or line of thinking / worldview.

Well done.

I think it's a really shortsighted, actually. Hive Mind is criminally underplayed right now, and was during all of those tournaments. If noone plays the best deck in the format, can it win? No. Does it make it any less the best deck? No. The prospect of the best deck being underplayed might seem impossible to many, but it's actually pretty likely, imo. If 15% of the room was playing the deck, which is what Merfolk usually brings in, than I'd expect it to do better than Merfolk does on average. Combo decks than can support PoN are silly!

[menace13]

I hope anyone is not using the Tom lapille excuse of "The gents agreement". I thought we got past this by now. There is no such thing. The best players play the best positioned decks. Check TC stats and see how many first place spots(per placings)Zoo and Merfolk have in the past 5 months-hint all of them-.