G/B Natural Order w/ Veggies (NOVV)

[Hanni]

Current decklist, as of 7/31/2011:

G/B NO/VV
Natural Order w/ Veggies
Another Rock Variant

// Lands (22)
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Bayou
4 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures (22)
4 [7E] Birds of Paradise
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ROE] Vengevine
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [CFX] Progenitus

// Spells (16)
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [OD] Buried Alive
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 3 [DS] Viridian Zealot
SB: 1 [ON] Gigapede

Original Post:

Whatever happened to Vengevine? The card is still really good, but no one is really playing with him anymore. Anyway, I got bored, so I started tuning my old U/G/b list, and it just kept getting closer and closer to G/B after every handful of playtest sessions I logged with it. Fact is, the blue splashed version, while incredibly powerful when it draws well, runs into too many consistency issues. G/B on the other hand, has been performing pretty well for me.

I'm sure there is probably a Natural Order w/ Vengevines thread somewhere deep down in the New and Developmental forum, but I didn't feel like digging for it. If someone really wants to link me to it, go for it, and I'll have the mods lock this thread and I'll post in there.

Anyway, first let me post my current list:

G/B NOVV
Natural Order w/ Veggies

// Lands (20)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [R] Bayou
4 [UNH] Forest
2 [UNH] Swamp
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures (25)
4 [7E] Birds of Paradise
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [TO] Basking Rootwalla
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [OD] Wild Mongrel
4 [ROE] Vengevine
1 [CFX] Progenitus

// Spells (15)
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [OD] Buried Alive
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [ON] Gigapede

First off, I'm really diggin the manabase. It's pretty rock solid. Tons of basics, 20 lands + 8 mana ramp guys, it's been working for me.

Onto the meat and potatoes.

The deck sometimes gets really explosive starts. A hand with turn 1 PImp + Rootwalla with a Veggie or two in hand is sometimes too much for opposing decks to handle. Swinging for 4+ damage on turn 1 is pretty good. When the deck isn't getting explosive starts, it's usually able to shred the opponent's hand apart with discard. Cabal Therapy is vicious in this deck.

Past the opening turn, the deck has 8 bombs that the opponent typically must counter/answer or they get blown out. With 8 mana ramp guys, turn 2 Buried Alive's and turn 3 Natural Order's happen pretty frequently.

Buried Alive on turn two sets up a 12 damage swing on turn 3. If you have a Vengevine in hand already (and a discard outlet), that's 16 damage instead. Pretty good stuff.

Natural Order adds to the bomb density. If the opponent is capable of handling Buried Alive/the Veggie beats, dropping a Progenitus on the board is always fun. Just like in NO RUG, alot of decks cannot answer a 10/10 Pro Everything.

Where NO RUG has Vendilion Clique to try and make sure a Natural Order resolves, I have discard to do the same. I personally prefer the discard, since it's: a) cheaper, and b) they cannot luck draw into a card from the top afterwards.

Oh, and if Progenitus is in your hand, the discard outlets do a great job of putting it back into the deck.

If all else fails, the deck still has a ton of weak beats that it can drop very quickly to swarm the opponent. Or hardcast Vengevines. That's worst case scenario, but it's suprising how often that actually gets the job done.

The deck doesn't have any creature removal, but it's aggressive enough that I feel like it doesn't really need it. The deck is essentially a combo deck. Aggro/Combo of course, with Control via discard, but it still feels very much like a combo deck. The deck just does broken shit.

What I really like the most about this list vs the blue splash is the consistency. The deck has multiple angles of attack now. Instead of going all in on the Vengevine plan, which makes postboard games vs hate very difficult, this deck can play straight through a Leyline, etc. It's very easy for this deck to hardcast Vengevines, and an out-of-nowhere Natural Order into Progenitus laughs at Relic of Progenitus (pun intended). The deck just keeps slamming the opponent with power plays until one resolves and wins the game.

The sideboard is still very debateable. I've been liking the Null Rod's though.

[Jabari]

I really like this idea, I saw a similar list on another site that SB the NO plan instead of MD. My thoughts are that 8 mana dorks is too many. I think dropping 2 Noble for 2 Sylvan Libraries would greatly increase the deck's resiliency. You'll still have 14 1 drop creatures after the cut so Vengevine recursion won't be restricted. The card advantage of Library seems much more needed than the two dudes.

[Hanni]

A couple of Sylvan Libraries could be really nice in here, good call.

Not sure that I'd want to cut my mana dorks though. 8 of them greatly increases my chances of casting one on turn one, which I really want to do. Ramping into Buried Alive and Natural Order wins games. The other factor is that they are 1cc creatures, which helps increase my ability to trigger gravebound Vengevines, and ensures I have a green creature to sac to Natural Order. On top of all that, they give me extra willing and able bodies to sac to Therapy early. Shredding the opponent's hand with Therapy on turn 2 is absolutely savage, especially if I'm casting something broken next turn (Buried Alive) or the turn after (Natural Order).

I'll do some more playtesting and try to figure out how I can squeeze in a couple Libraries though.

[Freggle]

I really like this idea, I saw a similar list on another site that SB the NO plan instead of MD. My thoughts are that 8 mana dorks is too many. I think dropping 2 Noble for 2 Sylvan Libraries would greatly increase the deck's resiliency. You'll still have 14 1 drop creatures after the cut so Vengevine recursion won't be restricted. The card advantage of Library seems much more needed than the two dudes.

...if you do cut though you'd want to cut birds exalted is just too good.

[Hanni]

No. If I was going to cut mana dorks, Hierarch's would be first to go. Tapping for black mana is just too good. Exalted is also irrelevant when I'm attacking with multiple guys, which is the case more often than not.

However, I'm flirting with the idea of cutting the discard outlets for better creatures like Goyf. I could also squeeze in some Libraries too. Not sure I wanna do that, since I lose some early game explosiveness, and the ability to pitch Progenitus if I draw it, but it's a possibility.

Honestly though, the deck is pretty damn good as is. Minus the sideboard, which is just a throw together right now, I've been very pleased with the decklist I posted. The deck just finds a way to win out of nowhere constantly, regardless of how much hate the opponent is throwing at me.

[Greenpoe]

Did you try Bob over Mongrel, or is having the full 8 discard outs essential? Fauna Shaman could replace Mongrel, too.

[Final Fortune]

Tested a similar deck awhile back and found Elves of Deep Shadow are better than Exalted Hierarchs fwiw, have you considered replacing the Wild Mongrel, Putrid Imp and Basking Rootwalla slots for the Fauna Shaman and Scrybe Ranger engine or grafting the Reanimate and 1 game winning fatty package into the deck?

[Grollub]

Tried Blood Ghasts? A guy at the local shop played something similar and the ability to pick between Ghasts or Vengevines (via Buried Alive) depending on situation looked fairly important.

If you want to win out of nowhere you could consider one of the various Buried Alive+Reanimation = GG packages, instead of NO+Prog main (should be backbreaking in the side).
EDIT: I cannot read - Leaving last paragraph as it might be worth a consideration regardless. ;-)

[honz]

look at this deck:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39296

The combo plan is to play necrotic ooze with devourer and triskilion in grave. Some combination of buried alive, reanimate, and fauna shaman usually gets you there.
Vengevine / bloodghast / goyf are more of the backup plan against heavy control decks. Buried alive and fauna shaman can also be used to power out these guys.

You could, in theory, put natural order in the miandeck, however i prefer it side boarded. Most decks can't answer ooze combo game 1, and NO comes in as a surprise game 2-3, taking out the ooze combo, or the vengevine/ghasts depending on the match up.

Regardless if you follow the link's plan, i would make these suggestions:
+ooze combo
+fauna shaman
+1 quirion ranger
+bloodghast
+1-2 green sun's zenith
-1-3 mana critters
-putrid imp
-wild mongrel

sideboard considerations: scavenging ooze, summoning trap, dismember, surgical extraction, krosan grip, beast within

[Rafa]

You do want to play Llanowar Elves over Hierarchs because they can block and kill troublesome attacking x/1 creatures.
Since you are playing BG and have access to the best creatures of the game, why not to play Tarmogoyfs over the Wild Mongrels and Dark Confidants (or Bloodghast, not that he's as good as Bob, but he fits the deck well) over the Putrid Imps?
I'd also play 4 Fauna Shamans instead of 4 Basking Rootwallas, fixing the problem that removing Putrid Imp and Wild Mongrel could cause because of when you draw Progenitus, not to mention that they do their job sending Vengies (and bloodghasts) to the GY.
I'd remove 1 Llanowar Elves (Hierarch) and 1 of the card I suggested to play over Putrid Imp and add 3 Green Sun Zeniths, since its a Dryad Arbor deck, besides playing a Tarmogoyf for 3, which isn't bad. Also, it would have 61 cards, minimizing your chances of drawing Progenitus, which I find nice and do with all my NO decks.

*PS: A 1-off Quirion Ranger over a mana dork is also worth of consideration: your dryad arbor will nullify a Jitte and your attackers will be able to block the next turn and if they die, they are coming back from the GY anyways :) He can also produce you 4 mana if you only have on the table a mana dork and a forest and no lands in hand (manascrew), which is enough to play NO.

[Hanni]

Did you try Bob over Mongrel, or is having the full 8 discard outs essential? Fauna Shaman could replace Mongrel, too.

This deck started out as a U/G/b Intuition/VV deck, so I haven't tried the deck without the Madness component yet. So no, I haven't tried Dark Confidant yet.

Fauna Shaman, on the other hand, defeats the purpose to run a discard outlet. The attractiveness of the Madness component is the explosiveness. Discarding Vengevines from hand to cheat them into play is fast. Shaman is slow. I'd sooner run Tarmogoyf.


Tested a similar deck awhile back and found Elves of Deep Shadow are better than Exalted Hierarchs fwiw, have you considered replacing the Wild Mongrel, Putrid Imp and Basking Rootwalla slots for the Fauna Shaman and Scrybe Ranger engine or grafting the Reanimate and 1 game winning fatty package into the deck?

In a deck with BB costs, I'd say EoDS would be pretty good. I'm only rocking single black costs and alot of double green costs in here, so I'd rather have mana dorks that tap for green.

The Shaman + Ranger package is slow. The only reason to run the discard outlets is because they allow for explosive starts, like turn 1 and turn 2 Vengevine plays. Like I said above, I'd sooner run Tarmogoyf.

As far as Reanimate goes, that's not really what this deck is designed for. Buried Alive already sets up a win with triple Vengevine, and while there may be a situation where a single fatty would be better than triple Vengevine, it's not worth the inconsistencies. Reanimate on its own is a subpar card in this deck. I already have Natural Order to Reanimate a fatty, and it's basically a 1 card combo, since this deck has a boatload of cheap green creatures.


Tried Blood Ghasts? A guy at the local shop played something similar and the ability to pick between Ghasts or Vengevines (via Buried Alive) depending on situation looked fairly important.

If you want to win out of nowhere you could consider one of the various Buried Alive+Reanimation = GG packages, instead of NO+Prog main (should be backbreaking in the side).
EDIT: I cannot read - Leaving last paragraph as it might be worth a consideration regardless. ;-)

I've toyed around with Bloodghasts before. The problem with them in a shell like this is that they aren't green, cost BB, and when their recursion doesn't trigger Vengevines. They have great synergy with Cabal Therapy, but the 2/1 body isn't impressive. If I was going to grab anything else with Buried Alive, it would be Genesis.

Buried Alive + two creatures = GG too, and the deck doesn't lose consistency by running Reanimate. Reanimate puts too much emphasis on resolving a Buried Alive, whereas Natural Order increases my bomb density. The way this deck is built, Natural Order is basically a better Reanimate that requires very little setup (having a green creature in play prior to casting it happens frequently).


look at this deck:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=39296

The combo plan is to play necrotic ooze with devourer and triskilion in grave. Some combination of buried alive, reanimate, and fauna shaman usually gets you there.
Vengevine / bloodghast / goyf are more of the backup plan against heavy control decks. Buried alive and fauna shaman can also be used to power out these guys.

You could, in theory, put natural order in the miandeck, however i prefer it side boarded. Most decks can't answer ooze combo game 1, and NO comes in as a surprise game 2-3, taking out the ooze combo, or the vengevine/ghasts depending on the match up.

Regardless if you follow the link's plan, i would make these suggestions:
+ooze combo
+fauna shaman
+1 quirion ranger
+bloodghast
+1-2 green sun's zenith
-1-3 mana critters
-putrid imp
-wild mongrel


Necrotic Ooze is really powerful, but this deck isn't really set up for it. I've already voiced my concerns over Reanimate, and while I could just as easily hardcast Ooze as I can Vengevine, Vengevine is a much better standalone threat. The Ooze combo may be more powerful when it gets set up, i.e win games faster/more often, but triple Vengevine often wins the game anyway, and it's alot easier/more consistent to set up. I'd rather run a more stable creature package with stuff like Tarmogoyf than go deeper into combo packages at the cost of consistency and resiliency.

Not saying Ooze couldn't find a home in a different build; a build that was built more around Ooze than Vengevine. However, I'd like to keep this deck focused around Vengevine and Natural Order.


sideboard considerations: scavenging ooze, summoning trap, dismember, surgical extraction, krosan grip, beast within

Very solid sideboard suggestions, thanks.


You do want to play Llanowar Elves over Hierarchs because they can block and kill troublesome attacking x/1 creatures.
Since you are playing BG and have access to the best creatures of the game, why not to play Tarmogoyfs over the Wild Mongrels and Dark Confidants (or Bloodghast, not that he's as good as Bob, but he fits the deck well) over the Putrid Imps?
I'd also play 4 Fauna Shamans instead of 4 Basking Rootwallas, fixing the problem that removing Putrid Imp and Wild Mongrel could cause because of when you draw Progenitus, not to mention that they do their job sending Vengies (and bloodghasts) to the GY.
I'd remove 1 Llanowar Elves (Hierarch) and 1 of the card I suggested to play over Putrid Imp and add 3 Green Sun Zeniths, since its a Dryad Arbor deck, besides playing a Tarmogoyf for 3, which isn't bad. Also, it would have 61 cards, minimizing your chances of drawing Progenitus, which I find nice and do with all my NO decks.


I can see pros and cons to both Hierarch and Elves, so it's hard to just say one is better than another. Elves blocking x/1's allows me to be more defensive, but this is an aggressive deck. Attacking with a 3/3 Rootwalla with a Hierarch on the board turn him into a 4/4, and two Hierarch's puts him at 5/5. Right now I think being more aggressive is going to be my better option, but I'll keep the idea in mind. Swarm attacking with a bunch of guys, Elves included, is a more attractive reason to run him over Hierarch, I think.

If you read my post (a few posts up), I did mention that I was considering cutting the Madness component (discard outlets + Rootwalla's) for better stand alone creatures. I'd like to test both approaches to determine which one works best.

As far as discarding Progenitus, there is always Thoughtseize/Therapy, or simply not needing/having Natural Order in the first place, so it's not mandatory that I have a discard outlet (like PImp) to get rid of them, it's just a nice synergy.

Green Sun's Zenith is a no-go in this deck. It doesn't trigger Vengevine. Paying 3 for a Tarmogoyf isn't what this deck is trying to do. Just because a deck runs NO/Pro and Dryad Armor doesn't mean it needs to run Zenith. It's a nice interaction to be sure, but this deck runs more than enough mana dorks to accel with early.


*PS: A 1-off Quirion Ranger over a mana dork is also worth of consideration: your dryad arbor will nullify a Jitte and your attackers will be able to block the next turn and if they die, they are coming back from the GY anyways :) He can also produce you 4 mana if you only have on the table a mana dork and a forest and no lands in hand (manascrew), which is enough to play NO.

I'll keep this in mind. Quirion Ranger is a good suggestion.

------------------------------------------------------

Now that I've responded to everyone, I want to post an alternate list that drops the explosive Madness component for a more solid midrange aggro approach:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [R] Bayou
6 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 [7E] Birds of Paradise
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 ???
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ROE] Vengevine
4 [REL] Shriekmaw
1 [CFX] Progenitus

// Spells
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [OD] Buried Alive
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy

Wild Mongrel becomes Tarmogoyf, and Shriekmaw becomes Putrid Imp. I'll talk more about Shriekmaw in a second. The ??? are the Rootwalla spots. I know I want another 1cc green creature to replace him, but there are several options here:

Elves of Deep Shadow
Llanowar Elves
Veteran Explorer
Elvish Lyrist
Elvish Scrapper
Nimble Mongoose
Scute Mob
Skyshroud Elite
Stampede Driver
Sylvan Safekeeper
Taunting Elf
Thallid
Twinblade Slasher

I could up my mana dork density. I could run artifact/enchantment removal guys. I could run some beats like Mongoose or Skyshroud Elite. Stampede Driver seems nice in a deck that can swarm. Sylvan Safekeeper has merits, and so does Taunting Elf. Thallid is pretty cool too.

I'm really leaning towards Twinblade Slasher though. I really liked Basking Rootwalla in this deck, even when he wasn't being cast for Madness. Threshold is slow to build with this deck, whereas with all the mana ramp and general low casting costs of this deck (when I'm not dropping a bomb), having 1G available to pump is rarely an issue. In a deck not built to use Madness, Slasher is a much better Rootwalla. Wither seems like a total house; does my opponent block my 3/3 Slasher with his 4/5 Tarmogoyf? Especially with Exalted Triggers, I can see Slasher being a very solid threat. A solid threat is really what I want in that spot.

Anyway, onto Shriekmaw.

The synergy here is awesome. Shriekmaw gives the deck a removal spell, which happens to dodge Mental Misstep and Spell Snare, while also triggering Vengevines. That's right; evoking Shriekmaw counts as casting a creature spell. Killing a large Knight of the Reliquary, and then playing another creature to trigger Vengevines back into play that can swing unblocked (or at least, 1 less blocker), is a huge tempo boost. Normally, a wall of fatties (Goyf/Knight) can slow down the triple Vengevine plan considerably. So Shriekmaw is both defensive, but can also be offensive (think Zoo fundamentals).

This deck frequently ramps to 4B. Hardcasting a Shriekmaw is really good in the midgame. It's basically card advantage, killing an opponent's guy and leaving me with a 3/2 body. Fear is also sweet, since it's likely that I'll push those last points of damage through.

Shriekmaw also opens up the idea to run Genesis. In a given situation where I have Buried Alive and no creatures in hand, I could go for a Vine/Vine/Genesis pile with Buried Alive, and use Genesis to recur some mana dorks or something. Once I hit two of them (should be easy), I simply drop them both to recur double Vengevine. Not as potent as a triple Vengevine pile, but it gives the deck more options and consistency. Genesis itself is amazing for a midrange deck, since it generates card advantage. It also turns Buried Alive into a stronger tutor, since I can now tutor for removal via Shriekmaw. Recurring removal, at that. Or if I already have cast a Shriekmaw prior to, I can go Vine/Vine/Genesis to set up recurring removal while still getting Vengevine beats.

I'm thinking the ??? spot should be 3* Twinblade Slasher , 1 Genesis. What do you guys think?

*Or I could go 4 Twinblade, 3 Hierarch.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
Now that all the madness or graveyard outlets are gone, how are you going to put all the vengevines or progen which you drew from top deck or opening hand. The shriekmaw is a nice addition but another problem i see is without evasion your creatures can be blocked easily. Hve you tried cutting the discards for more creatures or a draw or dredge mechanic so that you have continuous pressure on the board rather than discarding them, i know discard is very nice to have in almost any deck but 7 seems too many.

right now i feel the deck is more of a NO prog deck 1st then when you can't combo NO then comes the other win condition, if that is the way you want to play deck im pretty sure you still need 4-5 discard outlets for your graveyard in case you draw or topdeck the progen.

[Hanni]

Well, if I have a Progenitus in hand, I suck it up or use Thoughtseize/Therapy to put it back. Drawing Progenitus sucks, but my chances are 1 in 60 and I don't always need to (or am able to) Natural Order for him. In about 30 games tonight, I've only run into this issue once where I had Prog in hand and wanted to cast Natural Order.

As far as discarding drawn Veggies: you don't. You just hardcast them, which is fairly easy to do with 20 lands and 7 mana dorks. My manabase is incredibly stable since it's G/b with 7 basics. I lose the explosiveness of the Madness engine with this list, but it is overall more consistent, and has a better midrange gameplan. This improves some matchups, and hurts others.

7 discard effects is perfect, and I wouldn't make any changes there. Postboard, I actually want more discard against combo and control decks, hence the 4 Hymn's in my sideboard.

As far as plans go... the primary plan is to just win. The deck has a number of ways to do this, and there is no main plan. Sometimes you just don't draw Natural Order, or you cannot hit 2GG, or whatever. If I was going to say there was a primary plan, the primary plan would simply be playing the beatdown. Twinblade and Goyf are solid beats, hardcast Veggies still get the job done, and Shriekmaw takes care of blockers. Shriekmaw also has evasion, so if the deck gets to the midgame, hardcast Shriekmaw is pretty good.

Truth be told, this version of the deck has options. There just really isn't a primary plan. Different approaches work better in different situations. Some games, I'll grab a Genesis/Shriekmaw/Vengevine pile, and recur Shriekmaw over and over until the board is clear. Othertimes I go for the throat, grabbing triple Veggies. Sometimes, I drop a Progenitus. Other times, I simply hit my opponent with some discard, destroy a creature or two, drop a Tarmogoyf or two, and clock them before they can recover.

Either way, the deck's been performing well all night on MWS, and it has been a blast to play. This is definitely one of the funnest midrange aggro decks I've ever played, and it's actually pretty good.

[Philipp2293]

I know this may sound strange, but since this deck folds to stuff like Moat (and maybe some other random stuff) G1, have you considered a tiny W Splash (1 Savannah + Manadorks should do) and a one-off Wispmare? You could easily search and set it up via Buried Alive -> Genesis/Wispmare/x, also it's another cheap VV enabler.

On the other hand, maybe you just don't care about enchantments(/artifacts )G1, since you've got plenty of hate in G2/G3.

I will give this deck a try for sure.

[Hanni]

I think I'd rather MD 1 Acidic Slime to deal with artifacts/enchantments maindeck, before I'd go into splashing white. Also, Elvish Lyrist deals with enchantments if I did find myself running into major issues there, although I haven't been. The discard itself is nice to pre-emptively deal with problems like Moat, and sometimes I'm able to simply race stuff like that. I don't see Moat enough to splash into a 3rd color, and I see opposing Wasteland's in roughly 90% of my matchups.

[Hanni]

Okay, so after additional playtesting with the deck all day long, I've decided that I really like the midrange approach. The Madness version was just too all in with Vengevines. It was much less consistent; sometimes it had blow outs, but other times it just fell apart.

The newer version still has blow outs with Buried Alive and Natural Order, and it's been performing much better overall.

I've made some additional changes to the list. Without the ability to discard early Vengevines, the need to have a ton of 1cc creatures to trigger early Vengevines is less necessary. I usually have 4 mana the turn after I cast Buried Alive, and so evoking Shriekmaw and casting Goyf gets the job done the same as dropping a mana dork and a Twinblade Slasher.

In lieu of this, I've decided I don't need the Slasher's. I've gone back up to the full 8 mana dorks, cut a couple basic Forests for 4 Wasteland's, and cut the 3 Cabal Therapy's for a playeset of Hymn to Tourach. The deck has a ton of colorless costs so that Wasteland taps for mana frequently, and it also handles random problem lands like manlands, Maze of Ith, etc. In a mana flood, it can help me colorscrew an opponent, or set them back a critical land drop. With Hymn to Tourach, it can cause manascrew. Most importantly, running the Wasteland's ups my total land count to 22, which feels alot better than 20 for the curve of this deck.

I still want the Therapy's vs combo (and some control), so I've moved them to the sideboard. With a much lower dependance on the graveyard now, I have not been wanting the Null Rod's anymore. Most of the combo I keep facing is non-Tendrils based, like Reanimator and Show and Tell. I decided Pernicious Deed was really good vs Goblins, Merfolk, and Affinity, so I decided to go with a playset of those in the board.

Here's the newest version, which I'll update the OP to include:

G/B NO/VV

// Lands (22)
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Bayou
4 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures (22)
4 [7E] Birds of Paradise
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ROE] Vengevine
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [CFX] Progenitus

// Spells (16)
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [OD] Buried Alive
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [M10] Acidic Slime
SB: 1 [US] Elvish Lyrist
SB: 1 [ON] Elvish Scrapper
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze

[unicoerner]

5 [LRW] Forest (2)
4 [R] Bayou
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [ARE] Swamp (1996)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 Progenitus
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
1 [FNM] Basking Rootwalla
1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
4 [M11] Fauna Shaman
1 [JU] Genesis
3 [ROE] Vengevine
2 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [4E] Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks

// Spells
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [PT] Natural Order
4 [OD] Buried Alive


I just threw this together. I haven't tested a single game yet, but i really didn't like your 4 Shriemaws.
Fauna Shaman is another threat which must be answered.

To your list, how hard was double black?

[Hanni]

To your list, how hard was double black?

It's a two color deck, and it runs 4 Birds of Paradise on top of that. BB is very easy to get. Going for BB early without a Birds means you have to fetch out a Bayou instead of going all basics, but I don't see the problem with that. Most decks in Legacy run 3 color manabases with very few basics. This decks manabase is incredibly stable.


I just threw this together. I haven't tested a single game yet, but i really didn't like your 4 Shriemaws.
Fauna Shaman is another threat which must be answered.

Did you not like the 4 Shriekmaw's in the list that I posted, or the list that you posted? I can see why you might not like them in the list that you posted.

The list you posted focuses on getting 3 Vengevines in the yard. This definitely increases the consistency of that gameplan. The only problem I see with this is that Fauna Shaman is very slow, and dies to nearly every removal spell in the format. By the time you get 3 Vengevines into the graveyard with Fauna Shaman, it's possible that your at a point in the game where 3 Vengevines is no longer a big deal for your opponent; for example, an opponent with a wall of Goyfs/Knights.

In the list that I posted, the Shriekmaw's are absolutely amazing.

My list is a midrange aggro/control deck; 4 removal spells is typical for most decks like this. It's nice to have an answer to that 8/8 Knight of the Reliquary on the opponent's side of the table, and removing blockers so that Goyfs/Vengevines can swing in unblocked makes my deck overall more aggressive. I also am able to hardcast Shriekmaw's pretty frequently; removing an opponent's Tarmogoyf and putting a 3/2 Fear into play at the same time is a huge tempo and card advantage swing that wins games.

Anyway, you need to go up to 4 Vengevines. I can see justification for going down to 3 in my list, since Buried Alive is my only setup spell for them. Your list is rocking 4 Fauna Shaman's, and there is no good reason whatsoever to not be running 4 Vengevines, when Vengevine beats is your all-in gameplan.

Also, thanks for the Viridian Zealot tech, I totally forgot about that guy. I'm wondering now if I should run a copy maindeck... I'll see what I can do.

[unicoerner]

I just included a toolbox, becasue i think we can use Genesis more effective then. Not sure about that

[Koby]

I would advocate to run 4 Vengevine regardless of how you plan on putting them into the yard. Invariably, you will draw one before you get to cast Buried Alive, and searching your library for only 2 VV is a game-killa.

Whatever happened to the Wonder/Island plan? It seems like a sure-fire way to seal up the game in one turn once you have the creatures out. It also avoids the whole "dead to Moat" issue.

EDIT -
I also noticed you run sideboard Elvish Lyrist/Scrapper. Have you considered Viridian Zealot to give you the flexibility for either, and also not have to wait a turn to use it?

[Hanni]

Whatever happened to the Wonder/Island plan? It seems like a sure-fire way to seal up the game in one turn once you have the creatures out. It also avoids the whole "dead to Moat" issue.

Trust me ruckus, I played with the blue version alot. Several months ago I was developing it, but ultimately gave up because of the inconsistency issues. When I picked the deck back up about a week ago, it started off as U/G/b.

The Island/Wonder plan is great, but I don't feel that the deck needs it anymore. Progenitus has evasion and so does Shriekmaw, who also clears the way of blockers.

I have yet to run into Moat. If I was seeing Moat with more consistency, I could maindeck a Viridian Zealot (probably in place of 1 Shriekmaw). Regardless, the deck has tons of answers to Moat postboard.


I also noticed you run sideboard Elvish Lyrist/Scrapper. Have you considered Viridian Zealot to give you the flexibility for either, and also not have to wait a turn to use it?


I just considered this today, after I saw unicoerner's list. I think this is a great idea, and I have cut Lyrist and Scrapper for a Zealot. I'll add another Scavenging Ooze with the extra space, I think.

EDIT: My updated sideboard:

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 3 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [DS] Viridian Zealot


I'll edit the OP decklist to reflect these changes.

[honz]

List first, justification later:

19-20 lands
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Heirarch
1 Quirion Ranger

4 Buried Alive
4 Fauna Shaman
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Reanimate/Animate Dead
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskilion
1 Phyrexion Devourer

4 Thoughtsieze
3 Cabal Therapy

3-4 Vengevine
4 Tarmogoyf

3-4 Flex slots (currently trying shreikmaw / genesis; basking rootwalla, eternal witness, mental misstep, skinshifter, phyrexian metamorph, hymn/4th therapy, bloodghasts, 4th vengevine are other options)

Sideboard:
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
# Dark confidant
# Scavenging Ooze
# Faerie Macabre
# Krosan Grip
# hymn to tourach / duress
# pernicious deed


Now i know that you dislike the ooze combo, however i see these two decks to be very much the same archetype, and should be considered as such.

Without the ooze combo, fauna shaman is probably sub-par, however (with the ooze combo) if he manages to stick on the board for 3 turns (most the time), you win the game. He also finds random useful things (macabre and shriekmaw have been great for me), and venges, and is a discard outlet. Also if someone taps out, you can eot grab your venges and catch him with his pants down for 12 damage. One of the strongest cards in the deck.

With the sideboard, you can essentially play 4 different variations on the deck: ooze/vengvine, NatOrder/vengevine, ooze/NatOrder, B/G Rock (deed, confidant, venges, reanimates), mainly depending on what your playing against and how it sideboards against you.

I really stress playing krosan grips over any other artifact/enchant hate, as hivemind decks are going to be everywhere with their recent success.

[Hanni]

Now i know that you dislike the ooze combo, however i see these two decks to be very much the same archetype, and should be considered as such.

It's not that I dislike the Ooze combo, it's just the fact that the decklist I posted was going in a different direction. The deck I built was built around Vengevine, not Ooze. I like the Ooze combo; I don't like the Ooze combo in this deck.

[Hanni]

After more playtesting, I've made some more sideboard changes.

Scavenging Ooze is overkill. I already have a fantastic Dredge matchup. Evoking Shriekmaw blows up Bridges, Wasteland can screw them over, and Vengevines/Progenitus can race them. Postboard, the Deeds are absolutely brutal.

Against Aggro Loam, I'm thinking I shouldn't really need to worry about dealing with their graveyard. They tend to have trouble dealing with a resolved Progenitus, and my discard does a great job of clearing away Burning Wish/Perish. Even recurring Vengevines are pretty hard for them to deal with, and Genesis -> Shriekmaw/Viridian Zealot is a beating too. I don't think I need the Scavenging Ooze's here.

I've had a few game losses to Reanimator so far, but that was with earlier versions of the deck. I think my matchup against Reanimator should be signicantly better now, especially postboard with more discard. I'm sure the Scavenging Ooze's would be awesome against them, but I'm not sure I really want to sideboard a card that's only really needed for 1 matchup.

I've been absolutely loving the Viridian Zealot though. It's tutorable recurrable artifact/enchantment removal (since it sac's itself), it triggers Vengevines, and it's a body for Natural Order. I couldn't ask for much more. I definitely want more than 1 in the sideboard.

Against Control decks bringing in graveyard hate, I'm thinking a 1-of Gigapede could be pretty good. Gives me something to grab with Buried Alive if the Veggies/Genesis get dealt with, and the Shroud is pretty good too. It also gives me an outlet for sacrificing Progenitus, although I usually board out my NO/Pro package vs Control...

Maybe I should maindeck 1 Gigapede? Hmm... maybe.

Anyway, the new sideboard:

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 3 [DS] Viridian Zealot
SB: 1 [ON] Gigapede

I will edit the OP with the new sideboard.

[Monochrome]

Really digging the work you've put into this so far Hanni. I had oringinally tried a straight U/G Tempo madness deck right after Survival was banned, to some success. Now that the format has slowed down due to Mental Misstep, and especially after I saw Ken's deck have the success it did, I think Veggies are due to make some kind of comeback (if not carve out their own Niche). I'm looking to take some of your ideas and test them myself too, see how it handles.

I definitely like the extra Zealots you have sideboard, as my meta sees a lot of permanent based control (E Tutor control w/ Moat/Bridge, Enchanctress). Shriekmaw's are also pretty sick against Emrakul (see a few of those too).

[Hanni]

Yea, I'm kinda in the air if I want the 4th Zealot in the sideboard, because I absolutely love the synergy he has with the rest of the deck.

If you're looking to take some ideas from the deck, I'd recommend playtesting with the deck as-is first before making any changes. I've played around 100 games or so with it already, and the list is pretty rock solid atm.

[unicoerner]

Perhaps its my list, but instead of 4 Tarmos i play 4 Fauna Shaman and you play 3 more Shriemaw where i play a toolox and 4 Hymny instead of Thoughtseize.
Hymn might be a good addition.
The problem i have, is that it's somehow hard for me to trigger the veggies after Burying them.

My games went like Land Bird - Destroy sth or counter Bird - 2nd play discard or Shaman - counter or removal - Turn 3 Burying, but now i am pretty much out of hand cards and if there stuck some land or more discard around, perhaps NO i have a problem.
Shriekmaw just taking care of black creatures is a problem, too.

Î lost to Deadguy, even after resolving Prog.. ok he had runner runner removal.
Lost to UR control, resolved first round Grim and had everything else.
Burn killed me, too. Did mull to 5 g2.

Perhaps i am not able to play this deck properly to this point, but i lacked power. Or it was bad luck.

[brianw712]

Hanni, what do you feel about the Merfolk matchup? I've been testing the OP list against Merfolk, and it really feels like an uphill battle. It seems like I can never resolve Buried Alive or Natural Order past Cursecatcher/Daze/Wasteland/Misstep on Noble/Birds, and if I can, it's usually because they have a threat-heavy draw, meaning the three Vengevines or the Progenitus are outmatched by the 4 5/5s on the other side of the table. And Goyfs aren't too much of a problem for them due to Coralhelm and Reejery.

[Hanni]

MATCHUP ANALYSIS

Merfolk

This matchup is a little more difficult for this deck than a more traditional Rock deck like Junk, because it has a lighter removal density. Earlier versions of this deck had an unfavorable matchup due to no removal, no Tarmogoyf or Wasteland, a heavier reliance on Buried Alive and Natural Order, and no relevant sideboard options. The current version has drastically improved its Merfolk matchup.

Game 1 is a coin flip. If they get a nuts draw, the game becomes an uphill battle. Tempo is the key word in game 1. Who goes first is a big deal. In addition to who wins the die roll, early accelerants via mana dorks for this deck and Vial for theirs, also matters.

If they are capable of stopping an early mana dork via Mental Misstep/Daze, stick a Vial or Cursecatcher turn 1, and are able to drop multiple lords into play early, the game will get out of hand and result in a loss.

Shriekmaw is fantastic in this matchup, since it dodges Cursecatcher and deals with their lords. Tarmogoyf is also fantastic once he grows large enough, which should be easy between the sorceries in this deck, the instants in theirs, and both decks packing a bunch of creatures. Even at 3/4, a lone Goyf can hold the ground early. Reducing damage early is important. Wasteland is also really good in this matchup because it answers Mutavault.

The discard package of this deck is helps a lot too, removing gas (creatures), and/or clearing the way to drop a bomb (Buried Alive/Natural Order). Both Buried Alive and Natural Order can turn the game around if resolved in a relevant time frame. Whether to grab a Genesis/Shriekmaw/Tarmogoyf or triple Vengevine pile with Buried Alive is dependent on the situation.

If Merfolk cannot sufficiently race early, chances are good that the game will result in a win. By midgame, their tempo countermagic like Daze, Cursecatcher, and Mental Misstep become a lot less effective/relevant, and resolving Buried Alive/Natural Order becomes a lot easier.

Postboard, the matchup gets a lot better, regardless of what sort of hate they bring in. Pernicious Deed is an absolute lifesaver, and the mana dorks can help accelerate it out when necessary. Deed is gold in this matchup, dealing with Vial’s, manlands, every single creature on the board, Umezawa’s Jitte if they bring it in, and any resolved artifact graveyard hate like Relic of Progenitus. As an enchantment, it dodges Cursecatcher; at 3cc, it dodges Misstep; playing around Daze results in them having only 4 hard counters to deal with it, which happens to Hymn them in the process.

I bring out the NO/Pro plan vs Merfolk, to fit in the Deed’s. NO/Pro is just too risky; a 2GG sorcery that also costs a creature is not worth the reward.

Sideboard Plan
-4 Natural Order
-1 Progenitus
+4 Pernicious Deed
+1 Viridian Zealot*

*I’m still up in the air about the final card to bring in postboard, since there are several useful alternatives. Cabal Therapy is nice, since it can rip additional gas and clear the way for Deed/Buried Alive, and Maelstrom Pulse is nice since it is additional removal.

Right now I’ve been bringing in Viridian Zealot. He is an additional body that can block/trade with one of their guys, can randomly destroy Vial/Jitte/Relic, is recurrable via Genesis, and can trigger Vengevines.

Matchup Percentages

I haven’t had quite enough playesting to make any sort of realistic conclusion here.

I’ve only played two 2/3 gamesets against Merfolk with the current list so far. Of those,

I’ve won:
One game 1
One game 2
One game 3

I’ve Lost:
One game 1
One game 2

And I’ve received one “Player Lost” going into game 3. Both versions were mono blue.

[Hanni]

MATCHUP ANALYSIS

Merfolk

This matchup is a little more difficult for this deck than a more traditional Rock deck like Junk, because it has a lighter removal density. Earlier versions of this deck had an unfavorable matchup due to no removal, no Tarmogoyf or Wasteland, a heavier reliance on Buried Alive and Natural Order, and no relevant sideboard options. The current version has drastically improved its Merfolk matchup.

Game 1 is a coin flip. If they get a nuts draw, the game becomes an uphill battle. Tempo is the key word in game 1. Who goes first is a big deal. In addition to who wins the die roll, early accelerants via mana dorks for this deck and Vial for theirs, also matters.

If they are capable of stopping an early mana dork via Mental Misstep/Daze, stick a Vial or Cursecatcher turn 1, and are able to drop multiple lords into play early, the game will get out of hand and result in a loss.

Shriekmaw is fantastic in this matchup, since it dodges Cursecatcher and deals with their lords. Tarmogoyf is also fantastic once he grows large enough, which should be easy between the sorceries in this deck, the instants in theirs, and both decks packing a bunch of creatures. Even at 3/4, a lone Goyf can hold the ground early. Reducing damage early is important. Wasteland is also really good in this matchup because it answers Mutavault.

The discard package of this deck is helps a lot too, removing gas (creatures), and/or clearing the way to drop a bomb (Buried Alive/Natural Order). Both Buried Alive and Natural Order can turn the game around if resolved in a relevant time frame. Whether to grab a Genesis/Shriekmaw/Tarmogoyf or triple Vengevine pile with Buried Alive is dependent on the situation.

If Merfolk cannot sufficiently race early, chances are good that the game will result in a win. By midgame, their tempo countermagic like Daze, Cursecatcher, and Mental Misstep become a lot less effective/relevant, and resolving Buried Alive/Natural Order becomes a lot easier.

Sideboard Plan

-4 Natural Order
-1 Progenitus
+4 Pernicious Deed
+1 Viridian Zealot*

*I’m still up in the air about the final card to bring in postboard, since there are several useful alternatives. Cabal Therapy is nice, since it can rip additional gas and clear the way for Deed/Buried Alive, and Maelstrom Pulse is nice since it is additional removal.

Right now I’ve been bringing in Viridian Zealot. He is an additional body that can block/trade with one of their guys, can randomly destroy Vial/Jitte/Relic, is recurrable via Genesis, and can trigger Vengevines.

Postboard, the matchup gets a lot better, regardless of what sort of hate they bring in. Pernicious Deed is an absolute lifesaver, and the mana dorks can help accelerate it out when necessary. Deed is gold in this matchup, dealing with Vial’s, manlands, every single creature on the board, Umezawa’s Jitte if they bring it in, and any resolved artifact graveyard hate like Relic of Progenitus. As an enchantment, it dodges Cursecatcher; at 3cc, it dodges Misstep; playing around Daze results in them having only 4 hard counters to deal with it, which happens to Hymn them in the process.

I bring out the NO/Pro plan vs Merfolk, because Pernicious Deed is much better. A 2GG sorcery that requires sacrificing a creature as part of the cost, is just too risky.

Matchup Percentages

I haven’t had quite enough playesting to make any sort of realistic conclusion here.

I’ve only played two 2/3 gamesets against Merfolk with the current list so far. Of those,

I’ve won:
One game 1
One game 2
One game 3

I’ve Lost:
One game 1
One game 2

And I’ve received one “Player Lost” going into game 3.

Both versions were mono blue.