What's the most broken thing you can do with Tolarian Academy?

[Nessaja]

Note: please don't discuss B&R academy related issues in this topic. I'm just looking for a legacy legal deck (+academy) that is broken.

So rules
- Legacy banlist list minus Tolarian Academy
- Must be a strong contender for a legacy metagame
- Show the true brokeness of Tolarian Academy
- Give a decklist < *MOST IMPORTANT*

Any takers?

Note; I have tried building broken decks basing it on combo winter Academy decks but without Windfall, Vamperic Tutor, Yawg Bargain and Mana Vault, it doesn't really reach spiral tide or ANT heights so far, but perhaps I got the wrong approach.

[lorddotm]

This is neither format, nor article discussion. Just sayin'

[clavio]

It has to be pretty insane in a mud type shell running some sort of draw engine.

[Dark Ritual]

Run it with jace, the mind sculptor. Turn 2 jace is pretty bonkers I hear. As for combo decks, run it with a lot of untap effects and draw effects and see what happens. Should be able to go off turn 3 pretty consistently with protection.

[wolfstorm]

Spiral tide + 4 Tolarian academy? Sounds promising.

[GGoober]

Spiral tide + 4 Tolarian academy? Sounds promising.


Sample Decklist?

I can imagine 4 Candelabra and maybe 4 Grim Monolith but outside of that seems a little artifact light to abuse Academy.

On the other-hand, 1-land Belcher could run an Academy as a pure accelerant (playing a list with Petals/LEDs/Chromes/Opals/Monolith). The only issue is it's still Belcher.

Blue-based MUD could be insanely strong with Academy, and combo would gladly run Academy since they are playing the mandatory Petals/LEDs/Chromes and a couple of Tops depending if it's DDFT or TES.

[(nameless one)]

It's funny because if you think about it, why is Gaea's Cradle not broken in this format while Tolarian Academy is. I mean combo winter was about 10 years ago. A lot has changed since.

[Nessaja]

This is neither format, nor article discussion. Just sayin'
It's not really community discussion either =/

You could see it as an experiment to establish the brokeness of Tolarian Academy which is, for B&R purposes useful for the format?

Can people provide decklists please!

[Nonex]

It's funny because if you think about it, why is Gaea's Cradle not broken in this format while Tolarian Academy is. I mean combo winter was about 10 years ago. A lot has changed since.

IMO the reason is the same why Serra's Sanctum isn't broken either. The kind of decks they accelerate are totally different, as are the cards that fuel them. Enchantress is so slow of a combo that it has to interact with the opponent to buy time to assemble everything successfully. Most creature decks oscillate between aggro and aggro-control, which isn't even overpowered by definition, and when a creature-based combo deck comes up, it generally gets bigger mana boosts from the creatures themselves or an enchantment that works wonders with them (think of Elves combo, Aluren, or Food Chain), so some may not even run Cradles at all. Storm combo decks, however, are generally faster and more consistent than those, abuse free artifacts that also happen to produce mana (something Sanctum and Cradle can't say about their cards) and their main colors offer the best tutors, card draw, and disruption. I find it normal that a land that can produce like 5-6 (or more) blue mana without any real drawback for such decks is deemed too dangerous to roam the format as a 4-of.

[Mattie]

What's the metagame the deck is going to be played in? Is it the current Legacy metagame?

[Amon Amarth]

Tapping it.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Hardcast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.

[Koby]

Casting Tinker and Memory Jar, or both.

What's the point of this thread aside from stating the obvious?

[Ozymandias]

Something ridiculous, probably sporting Time Spiral, Force of Will, all kinds of nasty 0-cc artifacts, Candelabrum. Super Standard.

[mcfarland]

Casting Tinker and Memory Jar, or both.

What's the point of this thread aside from stating the obvious?

He suspects that, in Legacy, right now, Academy isn't as broken as people think it is. He's testing his suspicions by trying to come up with a list that proves himself wrong.

I may agree with him. It's absurdly good (better than both Sanctum and Cradle), but I don't know if it's broken. I'm probably wrong, though, and I'd love to see someone throw down a list that tears this meta apart.

[Nessaja]

What's the metagame the deck is going to be played in? Is it the current Legacy metagame?
Sure, take the legacy metagame of this moment.


Casting Tinker and Memory Jar, or both.

What's the point of this thread aside from stating the obvious?
Providing decklists which nobody is doing.

Tinker and Memory Jar are banned... The first post has pretty good info.

This is not a B&R discussion topic, I want to see the most broken "legacy legal"(banlist+academy) list people can produce.

[Final Fortune]

At a guess, Diminishing Returns and Slithermuse based Storm Combo would be really abusive or an Affinity list that powered into Tezzeret.

[Humphrey]

-throw it into every deck that can run artifact lands
-thopter foundry combo
-hightide combo
-blue affinity feat. blue zenith

and so on..

[Nessaja]

I appreciate the effort but I'd appreciate it much more if you could provide a decklist so I can test.

[Humphrey]

why should anyone do the work and build a deck. do it yourself ;)

[Nihil Credo]

Because I'm lazy (though not as much as you):

(1)

4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Memnite
4 Frogmite
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Ornithopter
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
4 Mox Opal
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tolarian Academy
2 Glimmervoid
2 Ancient Tomb
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Dispatch
3 Thoughtseize
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus


(2)

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thopter Foundry
3 Sword of the Meek
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Mox Opal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
2 Ancient Den
4 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard

4 Counterbalance
4 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Karmic Justice
1 Blood Moon
1 Humility
1 Enlightened Tutor



I tried a couple of Academy openings. With the Affinity deck I had two planeswalkers in play on turn 3, alongside three creatures (JTMS used to be Springleaf Drum, btw - probably not the optimal subs). With the control deck (no change other than the lands) on turn 3 I had my first Thopter token in play and an active Force of Will, after starting with 0 combo pieces or E.Tutors in hand.

Bonus: horrible improvised old-style combo deck that pulls off the occasional turn 2-3 kill with double counter backup, but just as often mulligans into oblivion (I'd test Serum Powder next):

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [US] Tolarian Academy

// Spells
3 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [EX] Mind Over Matter
4 [M12] Ponder
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [6E] Diminishing Returns
4 [SOK] Ideas Unbound
3 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 [US] Time Spiral
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [TE] Lotus Petal

[Draener]

Maybe because that's what was posted as the entire topic of the thread? I mean it's nice that you guys are throwing out ideas, but not a SINGLE decklist has been posted.

Decklist:

Land
Tolarian Academy x 4
Seat of the Synod x 4
Vault of Whispers x 4
Darksteel Citadel x 4
Underground Sea x 4
Mox Opal x 4

Draw
Jace, The Mind Sculptor x 4
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas x 4
Thoughtcast x 4

Lock
Chalice of the Void x 4

Free Dudes
Memnite x 4
Ornithopter x 4
Phyrexian Walker x 4

Win Conditions
Thopter Foundry x 4
Steel Overseer x 4

[Damoxx]

Google 1998 Pro Tour: Rome decklist

[Nessaja]

Thanks Nihil & Draener I got something to work with.

This doesn't have much to do with laziness, as I said in the first post, I tried several things and it just wasn't all that broken. Usually it allowed broken plays but made decks inconsistent as hell. The only deck that improved was affinity but not to the point that I was thinking that it was uber broken, Credo's list seems more like the overhaul it needed.

[ReAnimator]

Some sort of Timespiral deck with 4 defense grids in the main deck. Repeal is probably the best answer card you can run, as it goes well with candelabra. Deserted Temple seems fine too. Maybe a green splash for Crop rotation.

[Koby]

Maybe a better question is:

What can you do with a lot of :g: or :u: mana?

I think one of the better engines for this would be Glimpse of Nature and artifact tall-men; Elvish Spirit Guide to enable Crop Rotation into either Tolarian or Gaea's Cradle.

The problem is, what is the end game?

[(nameless one)]

Maybe a better question is:

What can you do with a lot of :g: or :u: mana?

I think one of the better engines for this would be Glimpse of Nature and artifact tall-men; Elvish Spirit Guide to enable Crop Rotation into either Tolarian or Gaea's Cradle.

The problem is, what is the end game?

Emrakul? But then, you're beter off playing Combo Elves.

[Gheizen64]

While tapping for infinite blue is certainly one of the strongest point of the card, it isn't necessarily the only one. You can use it as a better sol Land in chalice decks, for example. This count as a possible "fair" use of Academy.


4 Tolarian Academy
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Myr Battlesphere
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Blightsteel Colossus


This deck is SO FUN. Blighsteel is insane, i can't imagine how it is to play it in Vintage off tinker.

[Draener]

I'm not sure if it would be worse than elves... having access to two lands that produce crazy amounts of mana might be worth the effort... considering free artifact creatures pump both lands. You couple also perhaps power out Garruk 1.0 to give all your free men overrun, while also untaping your cradle/ academy for crazy amounts of mana. Also trinket mage to fetch out candleabra seems good here.

[Koby]

Ok, with Academy in the running, Transmute Artifact now becomes more playable/consistent. As well as Reshape.

[android]

If you're going to go with illegal cards, you might as well throw in some Skullclamps. I've been trying to make a glass cannon deck for years.

It has/had:

Myr Retriever
Junk Diver
Skullclamp
Blasting Station
Phyrexian Altar
Helm of Awakening
Locket of Yesterdays

Deserted Temple
Minamo, School at Water's Edge

Mana Artifacts
Artifact Tutors

It was a good turn 1-3 deck.

[dahcmai]

Capsize goes much better with Candelabra and Academy. Throw in some artifact mana and build it up like Spiral tide and it's practically the old solitaire deck minus good artifacts. Not horrible I bet.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Capsize goes much better with Candelabra and Academy. Throw in some artifact mana and build it up like Spiral tide and it's practically the old solitaire deck minus good artifacts. Not horrible I bet.

This is actually rather difficult. I can see this card improving some existing archetypes significantly:

Affinity
Painter-Stone
Meandeck MUD

However, a Tide deck doesn't seem very good as you have to run both a non-island land as well as a significant number of artifacts (we really only want to run Candles, anything else is basically suboptimal in that deck). I could see the card being played in ANT, but it wouldn't offer much more than a City of Traitors except post Ad Nauseam (and anything that's broken post-Nauseam is irrelevant as you have already won). It forces you to play out artifacts earlier than you like, and would cause a lot of mulligans as you can't cast cantrips off of it until you have artifacts. I'm not saying it wouldn't be good, but it definitely wouldn't be broken in any deck I can think of other than maybe Painter.

Now, here's a theoretical non-painter combo list. It looks awful, but could at least be a starting point.

4 Tolarian Academy
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Island
6 Fetches

3 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Grim Monolith

4 Time Spiral
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Turnabout

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain

4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep

The deck could play LED and not Force of Will, but that's probably awful as there's no real way to tutor for spiral. Really, any deck mimicking the Urza block Academy lists seems to me like it would either be too slow, or is just missing too many cards.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Admiral: The list looks good. I'd definitely run mox diamond, seeing as how your goal would be to chain time spirals, and drawing multiple academies could be bad.I'd max out on grim monoliths and run a couple of mind over matters and intuitions as well.

4 Tolarian Academy
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Island
6 Fetchlands

4 Lotus petal
4 Mox Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Mox Opal

3 Mind over Matter

4 Time Spiral
3 Intuition

1 Blue Sun's Zenith

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation

[lordofthepit]

Crush his spirit and make him weep like a little girl.

[dahcmai]

Heh, that's basically what I meant. I just usually added capsize to lists like that since you can reset people to 0 permanents if you get 7 to mana with a Tolarian and candle out. It's handy for bounce in the meantime.


Here's an old list from those days converted over. I just took out the moxes, mana vaults and such and replaced them with modern day stuff. You'd have to tune the numbers a lot since you need to get to the point where you are dropping an Academy around turn 2 or 3 and have enough to start hitting three mana. The mana will need a lot of work. It's really rough. I converted this from a vintage deck so no moxes makes a large difference.

4 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Tolarian Academy
1 Wasteland
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
3 Chrome Mox
2 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Sensie's Divining Top
4 High Tide
4 Force of Will
4 Time Spiral
2 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Crop rotation
4 Lotus Petal
1 Meditate
2 Voltaic Key
1 Capsize
4 Grim Monolith
2 Defense Grid

[Hanni]

What's the most broken thing you can do with Tolarian Academy? I'd have to say tap it for a whole bunch of blue mana, no? People can compare it to Gaea's Cradle all the want, but there is a big difference between green mana and blue mana.

[dahcmai]

Hanni probably made the best point. It may not recreate broken turn 1 kill decks in legacy, but you can probably throw it in just about anything with blue and artifacts and it will easily be the best card in the deck. The thing is bonkers.

[Hanni]

Honestly, to even suggested unbanning Tolarian Academy is lunacy. I mean, sure, at first people will try to build some sort of bad combo deck out of it, even though the format is plenty capable of answering all-in combo decks. We'll have a combo winter, until the format evolves.

Then people will realize just how broken Tolarian Academy is in a Blue Artifact Control deck. We're talking a BAC of 8.0; that's 10 times the legal limit (in the United States anyway). Then the naysayers will come around talking about how Energy Flux owns it, except it's pretty hard to resolve a Null Rod when we have Force of Will, Counterspell, any number of other expensive broken countermagic like Forbid and Rewind, all of which will be castable very early. Blue does have access to bounce too, you know; Capsize anyone? Of course, we're definitely rocking Mox Diamonds so we have ways to pitch our excess Academy's, and Crucible of Worlds to say "fuck you Wasteland." Then we tap our Mox Opals and Academy's for rediculous amounts of blue mana to draw a rediculous amount of spells with any number of rediculously powerful draw spells like Blue Sun's Zenith to refill. The end result? Oh, I'm sure with all that blue mana, a lethal Zenith or some sort of artifact combo kill can be assembled, and it's not like paying 2U for Fabricate is any sweat off our back, ya know?

There are alot of really broken expensive artifacts, if you look through them all. If you have access to alot of blue mana on turns 2+, it's kinda hard to not win. Unlike a deck like High Tide, which is an all-in combo deck by its nature (High Tide is a one-time source), Academy + artifact mana taps every turn. You have no idea what a turn 1 Tangle Wire can do to you. Or turn 2 double Lodestone Golems. Or a turn 3 hardcast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Or so on, and so on.

Dumb thread is dumb.

Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Chrome Mox, and Seat of Synod give easy access to a turn 1 Counterspell or Tangle Wire or whatever, and a follow up of Candelabra of Tawnos + Academy, draw a bunch of cards, play a bunch more artifacts, draw a bunch more cards, drop some more lock pieces, or just win, is pretty absurd. Unlike a traditional combo deck, the deck can make just as much mana the next turn. So if the opponent is capable of stopping something along the way, it's pretty easy for the Academy player to just do it all over again next turn. Besides, the Academy player likely has its own countermagic, bounce, and lock spells, and it's guarunteed to draw more spells every turn. The actual win condition is likely irrelevant; with a bunch of blue mana and a bunch of card draw and/or tutoring, there's a vast number of ways to kill an opponent.

EDIT: Just for reference, a turn 1 of Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, and Seat of Synod is 3 mana available on turn 1. A turn 2 Academy is 6 mana, without anything else coming into play. And the next turn? You get my point.

EDIT 2: Toss in a turn 1 Tangle Wire to my above example for even more lulz.

EDIT 3: A turn 1 of Tolarian Academy, Mox Diamond, Candelabra of Tawnos, and Crucible of Worlds is pretty nutty too.

[troopatroop]

4 Tolarian Academy
2 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 City of Traitors

4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
3 Mox Opal

4 Sapphire Medallion
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Grim Monolith

3 Intuition
3 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Illusions of Grandeur
4 Donate
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[Hanni]

Tezzeret the Seeker seems pretty busted too.

[Nessaja]

Dumb thread is dumb.
I appreciate your comments, but this was just unneccesary. I did a lot of testing trying to break it as a combo deck, I just wasn't capable of producing anything better than the High Tide lists. So I wanted help.

Can you please explain to me why asking for help even qualifies for a "dumb thread is dumb"? You remind me of the old source days when I hated posting here because every reply you'd get was a flame, just so everyone felt better about themselves.

And you know what the problem is with what you do. You spout some theory but we all know the theory. We all know that it's busted, the question was to post a decklist to show it's bustedness. Such a large fraction of the people posting here think they are so smart when they make a comment "use it like this!1!1", dude, it's not like you're telling us anything new. But the difficulty comes in building a deck that - for instance for a control deck - has the right balance between acceleration and actual control. Do you still have place for Ponder and Brainstorm in your accelerator Academy control deck? It's not as easy as you claim.

@people that posted a list, thanks, I'm going to try them all out.

[paeng4983]

4 tolarian academy?

affinity decks
MUD decks

are the decks that came across my mind when i 1st read this.

[Squirrel]

You're right it's really hard to make a deck with Tolarian Academy. Here's my Version (didn't test it..)

3 Tezzeret, the Seeker
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Opal
3 Mox Diamond
3 Intuition
3 Transmute Artifact
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Goblin welder
4 Brainstorm
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Tolarian Academy
4 Great Furnace
3 Seat of the Synod
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn

In Theory, i think it's a blast to play.I like all the Synergies

[Comrade]

Can you please explain to me why asking for help even qualifies for a "dumb thread is dumb"?

Cause the shit is just not going to happen son. Ever.

[Nessaja]

Cause the shit is just not going to happen son. Ever.
That's entirely irrelevant to the topic. This isn't a prediction or a wish.

[Hanni]

Unecessary? Flame? I never attacked you personally. I said the thread was dumb, and it is.

Its no different than saying "I tried to break Tinker but couldn't. Could you show me a decklist that breaks it?" Insert any other broken spell from the banned list. The dumbness is still the same.

Why would I spend a few hours trying to polish a 4-Academy decklist for you when its pointless to do so? It is irrelevant whether or not coming up with an optimal decklist is simple or complicated. You were unconvinced by it because you built a bad deck around it. That doesn't mean the card isn't broken beyond belief.

[(nameless one)]

**All I know is I will be pissed if Tolarian Academy gets unbanned before Land Tax. FFS, I want my Parfait deck!

Back to the topic before this thread gets locked due to topic derailment.

The problem with naysayers is just because the card has a history if being notoriously broken, people would just assume it will break the format. I remember when Entomb, Grim Monolith, Metalworker and Time Spiral were all banned. There were always discussions of unbanning these cards would break the format. Time has passed and these cards were eventually unbanned and it has proven that they are nowhere near as broken as they used to be back in the days. Legacy is different from old old old extended/standard. There are other cards that match their brokeness. Unless it is properly tested in the format and someone dedicated to break the card in the current meta and post hate, we cannot really tell if it would break the format.

Yes, Tolarian Academy is too good but is it too broken for the format?

[Nessaja]

Its no different than saying "I tried to break Tinker but couldn't. Could you show me a decklist that breaks it?" Insert any other broken spell from the banned list. The dumbness is still the same.
Breaking Academy is much different than breaking Tinker. And even if it wasn't, I wouldn't ask the question because I already did break it. So I don't need the knowledge. The same counts for most of the cards on the banlist. Not for Academy.

Unecessary? Flame? I never attacked you personally. I said the thread was dumb, and it is.
You mean that it is your opinion that the topic is dumb. And I disagree with you. Stating as a fact that it is a dumb topic is actually very much insulting. I posted this topic out of honest interest and with no ill intentions, calling my honest interest "dumb" is insulting to say the least. You don't need to say it, you can keep it to yourself. But you choose to make a degenerate remark.

Why would I spend a few hours trying to polish a 4-Academy decklist for you when its pointless to do so?
Unless you live on these forums you have absolutely no reason to even enter this topic. I'm not obligating you to post, read or reply. If you don't want to do anything than don't and spend your time in a better way than complaining on a forum.

You were unconvinced by it because you built a bad deck around it. That doesn't mean the card isn't broken beyond belief.
The premise isn't that it isn't broken so don't change the subject. Had you read the topic, you would've known this.

I want to see the true brokeness of Academy in decklist form, I have attempted this myself but failed. The purpose of posting this is because others might have attempted this as well and did succeed. This is a legitimate question to ask - you might not want to answer it, you might not want to think about it, I don't care, then don't post.

[Nessaja]

Just so you know, the only reason this needs to be locked is because there are people like you (Hanni) who feel the need to degenerate a topic when they consider it unneccesary or dumb, even though it might be of interest to others.

I'm sure you're proud of yourself, thanks.

==============================================

@Nihil Credo

I tested your affinity list.
While casting a turn 2 Jace or Tezzeret is appealing it also turned out to be really inconsistent. Multiples of Opals and Academy's in hand aren't pretty and it's not like I can pitch them. That's just from goldfishing mind you.

Your control list performed much better except that with all the moxes and again - 4 legendary lands - it actually felt like playing Dragon Stompy. The card selection is alright, missing ponders but atleast SDT is there. I only played about 10 games with it but, the broken hands were great. I would probably want Mox Diamond to get rid of duplicate academies over chrome mox because it's a bit heavy on the mana side and not so much on the business side. Even though you added Academy, you're still playing a suboptimal deck when you don't draw academy and that, IMO is a problem.

@Draener, amusing list, big chance to draw nothing but mana and 1/1 dorks but alright. The times it worked it was very amusing. But it's horribly inconsistent

Haven't tried the rest yet but thanks to the people posting lists.

I'd just like to note that it seems really easy to deform your list and add a lot of artifacts and academy but it actually doesn't work that way. You usually don't play all those artifacts (other then MUD/Affinity) so by definition you're playing a suboptimal deck when you don't draw academy. If you drop card selection in favor of accelerants you don't even have a way to get the academy fast.

[Nihil Credo]

@Nessaja

As I said, all I did was lands->Academy Drum->JTMS for the Affinity deck, and lands->Academy for the Thopter list (meaning by the way that "you're still playing a suboptimal deck when you don't draw academy" makes absolutely no sense since it was a multiple-SCG-T8 list without Academy).

The point of those substitutions was just to show that when Academy is in your opening hand, your deck basically operates 2-3 turns ahead and leaves the opponent in the dust. I'm sure you can handle testing some of the more obvious next steps, to turn the deck from "sometimes broken, sometimes just good" into "usually broken, occasionally just good": Mox Diamond, extra cantrips to find Academy or cycle easily with one in play, a singleton Minamo, placing higher value on useful trinkets, and so on.


Tezzeret the Seeker seems pretty busted too.
Hey Hanni, how funny! This reminds me that you really shouldn't talk about what is and isn't broken before you test. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?2894-Great-Source-Quotes&p=270950&viewfull=1#post270950)

[Ninakoru]

Fisrt of all sorry about my horrible english, is not my native language.

I think Hanni is totally right about the brokeness of tolarian academy.

However stating the thread dumb in those terms is stating the TC is dumb, and I think is not easy for everyone to see the real brokeness in their heads, you case is because you are making the wrong approaches.

About the topic, just look at this for creating mana:

Memnite x 4
Ornithopter x4
Phyrexian Walker x4
Shield Sphere x 4

Gaea's Cradle x 4
Tolarian academy x 4

And as Hanni said, that's broken mana, that can throw in big and bad spells and artifacts EVERY TURN.

[Draener]

After giving it some thought, you are completely correct about the problem of not drawing academy makes your deck a lot less playable... so why not add some consistency to that? Also stoneforge mystic gives your free mana dudes some way to be useful.

Mana:
Tolarian Academy x 4
Mox Diamond x 4
Mox Opal x 2
Tundra x 4
Wasteland x 3
Ancient Den x 4
Other:
Weathered Wayfarer x 4

Please note that these lists I'm throwing out aren't tested.
Jace, The Mind Sculptor x 4
Stoneforge Mystic x 4
Phyrexian Walker x 4
Ornithopter x 4
Memnite x 2
Thopter Foundry x 4
Sword of the Meek x 1
Batterskull x 1
Cranial Plating x 3
Thoughtcast x 4
Force of Will x 4

[Ninakoru]

I've tested this, some unestable but being able to cast threats on T2 half of the time.

Memnite x 4
Ornithopter x4
Phyrexian Walker x4
Shield Sphere x 4

Gaea's Cradle x 4
Tolarian academy x 4

Thirst of Knowledge x 4
Impulse x 4
Blue Sun Zenith x 2
Meditate x 4
Force of Will x 4

Primordial Hydra x 3
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur x 3
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn x 4

Mox Opal x 4
Candelabra of Tawnos x 4

[Draener]

One more list, because I really like the package of Free men + cradle/ academy.

Mana:
Tolarian Academy x 4
Gaea's Cradle x 4
Mox Diamond x 4
Mox Opal x 2
Tropical Island x 4
Tree of Tales x 2
Seat of the Synod x 2

Free Dudes:
Phyrexian Walker x 4
Ornithopter x 4
Memnite x 4

Planeswalkers
Garruk Wildspeaker x 4
Jace, The Mind Sculptor x 4

Card Draw
Thoughtcast x 4
Glimpse of Nature x 4
Thirst for Knowledge x 2

Win Condition
Steel Overseer x 4
Master of Etherium x 4

[rupus]

It's the 3rd multiple mana land (along with the sol lands) that MUD decks need to be truly competitive. In a lot of ways I think it would boost there consistency enough that they would be approaching Vintage MUD lists in terms of raw power. You could play a million spheres and not give a flying f*** because having an extra artifact means your academy entirely negates the tax. I don't feel like putting the effort into making a list but feel free to.

Another option is just copy pasting an old academy list and updating it. Here's CMU Academy (the best academy deck according to Mike Flores):

3 City of Brass
4 Tolarian Academy
3 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
3 Abeyance
2 Counterspell
4 Impulse
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mana Vault
1 Mind Over Matter
4 Mox Diamond
3 Scroll Rack
1 Stroke of Genius
4 Time Spiral
2 Urza's Bauble
3 Vampiric Tutor
4 Windfall

To update it and also make it legacy legal you might try this:
3 City of Brass
4 Tolarian Academy
3 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lotus Petal
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Mox Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
3 Scroll Rack
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Time Spiral
2 Urza's Bauble
4 Diminishing Returns

Do something with the mana base and make sure I counted right. Granted, High Tide stomped the old extended academy lists so this is probably no better than the current Spiral Tide lists.

[mcfarland]

I think the bottom line is this: Academy is Tarmogoyf.

It's insanely powerful, but it's potential isn't going to be "proven" by a single, broken decklist. As other folks have mentioned, you don't need to build around it to be bonkers. Sure, you can try to make a combo list that lives off of it, but the format will deal with that. In the same way that Goyf makes most decks that can afford one G better, every deck that plays blue and artifacts (read: a lot) will get a huge boost by throwing in a few extra mana baubles (diamond, Seat, etc.) and a set of Academies.

We don't really need a broken decklist, because it's a broken card.

[Draener]

I believe that the above statement is false. Tarmogoyf was strong because it served as both a great answer to aggro, as it was bigger than all their creatures AND could block itself, and was a great clock against an undefended board. It's easy color requirement added to it's universal playability, since pretty much everyone wanted a card that was great against aggro and combo, while being alright against control.

Academy can be thrown into a lot of preexisting decks, but it's power isn't apparent unless you design with it in mind. If it was at the power level that you suggest it is, it would quickly become clear how broken it was, as long as you through it into a somewhat competitive deck. I believe academy is much similar to survival in that it requires you to build with it in mind, and with careful design allows completely crazy plays to happen.

[Rizso]

Probly could see new Spanish Inquisionish deck with it. Chrome mox, mox opals, Lotus Petal, Led, Crop Rotation ( 8 acedemies are better then 4!), Cloud of Faeries + Snap into bigger spells like timespiral, meditate etc. Guess lucky Minds Desire Is banned :P

[Hanni]

Yay Nihil, let's post a link to an age old thread where I was blazed off my ass for two weeks on some super chronic. None of my posts at that time had any sort of logic to them whatsoever. My hats off to you, sir.

Oh, and what is and isn't broken? I seriously hope everyone understands that Tolarian Academy is broken, and if not, may god bless your soul.

[Gheizen64]

Yay Nihil, let's post a link to an age old thread where I was blazed off my ass for two weeks on some super chronic. None of my posts at that time had any sort of logic to them whatsoever. My hats off to you, sir.

Oh, and what is and isn't broken? I seriously hope everyone understands that Tolarian Academy is broken, and if not, may god bless your soul.

Card aren't evalued in a vacuum. Vise was considered a broken card, nowadays it sucks. Academy in Vintage is retarded, but in a format with no Moxen and *good* cheap artifacts? (old Academy lists all played Vault that we don't have in legacy, just to say one) That's actually a legitimate question, believe it or not. Of the combo lists i've tried, most played worse than SpiralTide while also being much more susceptible to hate (non-basic and artifact). The MUD lists were fascinating and Academy there is VERY good but it doesn't make the deck too good since it still have the problem of giving a lot of mana only when you usually don't need it anymore. MUD have also a lot of problems in legacy that they don't have in Vintage, we've discussed this many times and i won't go there again.

Old 4xacademy decks also, honestly, sucked in modern format terms. They comboed out slow by modern standard (and played cards like MoM and baubles) and the often dreaded triple vault into MoM into Stroke were god hands not really that different from belcher god hands. This was considered godly when black deck played bad moon and Carnophage. Times have changed.


I know that even if not downright broken, Academy is probably just too good since it's often a better island, and island is too good already (in another words, what mcfarland said). Your attitude however isn't really helpful to anyone neither is contruibuiting to a thread were no one offended anyone or talked in absolute terms "the card isn't/is absolutelybroken". I understand if you were to say that the OP actually posted very little in his opening post, but complaining about politely and reasonably espressed opinions (and let god save us from the W* word that ruin so many threads) honestly don't make much sense.

May god bless your soul if you get that heated over a matter of what is broken and what is not (lol).

Peace.

[scrubbysniff]

I would probably do something silly involving cradle, academy, seeker of skybreak, and a bunch of the artifacts that are in pretty much all those other lists. As what to do with all that mana, I guess BSZ or playing blightsteel/emakrul. It would probably be bad but lots of fun, I'll use this as a placeholder and slap a decklist together later.

[Hanni]

Oh I'm not heated over the matter. All I said was that I thought the thread was dumb.

The opening post basically said "I decided to playtest with Tolarian Academy to see if it was broken, but I the deck I built around it sucked, so I don't think the card is broken. I want you guys to post me a decklist for a card that's never going to get unbanned to prove me wrong."

When I said the thread was dumb, I wasn't throwing out any personal attacks. All I was doing was stating that this thread was dumb. Now if the goal of the thread was to make the most broken Tolarian Academy deck just for poops and laughs, that would be one thing. But it's not. People are honestly considering that a land that can easily tap for 3+ blue mana on turn two, and more blue mana than that every single turn after, isn't actually broken. That's what I meant by "this thread is dumb."

What I am annoyed about is the personal attacks that I am now receiving for stating the obvious. Nihil even went so far as to dredge up 3-4 year old shit. It's all good though, it's not something I'm going to go home and cry to mommy about. ;)

However, I'm done "derailing" the thread. I just wanted to point out that the card is broken, for those who weren't quite sure. Carry on.

P.S. If the deck your building around Academy sucks, it's not because of Academy.

[Bardo]

Moved to Community.

[Tammit67]

4 cradle/academy
7 basics/fetches

16 0 cost artifact creatures
4 crop rotation
4 turnabout
4 glimpse of nature
4 force
4 brainstorm
2 blue sun's zenith
1 hunting pack
1 concordant crossroads
3 ponder
1 hurkyls recall
3 flex

Come at me bro. You can find a more efficient kill I'm sure, but why would you want to?

Edit: Explore could really help this out I think?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Somebody suggested a Spanish Inquisition list:

4 Tolarian Academy
4 Underground Sea

4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Shield Sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker

4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Meditate
4 Infernal Contract
4 Time Spiral
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Infernal Tutor

This is probably fucking awful, but you get the idea. It's a glass cannon, meant to go off T1-T2. Academy's absurd mana generation enables Meditate and Time Spiral. It's basically emidln's old QSI list on crack. If 24 artifacts isn't enough, cut some rituals for more dudes or Grim Monolith or something. A fine-tuned version of this deck seems like it would be more consistent and powerful than traditional SI, but it still suffers from being a glass cannon like any such deck.

[JACO]

Nessaja, would you mind sharing the lists you have come up with? I have come up with a few lists which I think are pretty strong and would like to see where you have started (and failed) to come up with a very strong deck. We can try to improve upon your ideas and get an idea of what you didn't find feasible more quickly that way.

I am planning on writing a series of articles on this issue for Eternal Central to address the topic, so the more content and ideas you can provide the more helpful it will be.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Try this, it's a rough draft but pretty dumb-fun;

4 Tolarian Academy
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Den
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 City of Brass
4 Mox Opal
3 Mox Diamond

4 Mental Misstep
4 Vedalken Certarch
4 Cursed Scroll
3 Force of Will
4 Thoughtcast
2 Thirst for Knowledge

4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Masticore
4 Master of Etherium

[Tammit67]

Wow that looks casual