Theft at Gencon 2011

[Royal Ass.]

Unless I missed where it's posted, I feel like there should already be a thread on this. There is a lot of discussion about this over at the Mana Drain.

I'll get it started: Collector's Cashe (my local game store) is offering a $5,000.00 reward for a set of Beta power stolen out of a display case - http://www.collectorscache.com/Default.aspx?tabid=9&tabindex=0

Collector's Cache is a small business that has supported MTG since the beginning and this kind of theft really hurts them and ultimately the community.

There were many other serious thefts including David Williams Type 1 deck stolen valued around 20K. (I believe he is also offering a 5K reward).

I think we have a serious problem with theft in this community. Probably a few bad apples but something that needs to be discussed and addressed.

[troopatroop]

Leaving a box worth 20k in plain sight is being very unaware. That is all.

[lordofthepit]

Leaving a box worth 20k in plain sight is being very unaware. That is all.

There were allegedly several groups of (professional?) thieves at Gencon: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=345582

I know to be extremely vigilant about my belongings when I'm at a big event, but to blame this on the victim without knowing what happens is very ignorant.

[nedleeds]

When they start following me back to my hotel room ... that's when it's professional. Leaving beta power out in an unlatched case is a big mistake at Gencon. On Saturday and Sunday it's shoulder to shoulder in the dealer hall, trying to see an arm pop up and grab something is nearly impossible. The ones that blow my mind are the dealers who literally have a cashier and maybe one other dude covering their booth. I can't believe they don't get robbed blind.

[menace13]

This is what happens when people are careless, but it isn't always the victim's fault. This is what thieves do. They prey on unsuspecting people. I would like to hear from the victims side of things to see how they could(if any way) have prevented it. There was a story of a player turning around for a second to get dice out their bag and having their deck stolen right off the table.

It's a real shame when a gaming convention is a payday for a bunch of scumbags without good paying jobs(I'm just guessing here, they could be making good pay and just have really low morals).

Edit: I just read this over on Sally;
"Even then, look at what happened in SCG Baltimore. Some guy was in the bathroom, the thief came from behind and smashed his head into the urinal, took his stuff, then fled. The victim pulled his pants up and pursued the guy, and I think he was caught. Even with closed off areas, you're not safe."

Has It has gotten to that point where one has to carry just to play mtg?

[sclabman]

Has It has gotten to that point where one has to carry just to play mtg?

I've been doing this for years. It really helped my match win percentage.

[dakkon]

Rich Shay, David Williams, and the other victims aren't stupid. It's not like they left their shit unattended. It is impossible to be 100% aware of your belongings at all times, especially during a match. Security at Gencon was ass. Furthermore, crowds of people can hover around as you're playing. All it takes is a small distraction (which isn't difficult if the thieves work in groups) and they're off with your stuff.

A friend of mine had his backpack stolen while he was standing on the strap. He was concentrated on the game, got bumped, and someone must have jimmied out the bag and sent it across the table.

They need to keep the tables and walkways clear at all times during tournaments. Pastimes could have done a much better job once there were multiple reports of theft. If you're done with your match, get the fuck out. They enforce this for most GPs I don't see why they don't do something like this for Gencon. Less groups of people nucleating around you = less chances of thieves hiding next to you and taking your stuff.

As a last resort, anyone know of good remote activated alarm units? I've seen keyfinders or kid trackers. I'm not sure how well they work but I'm thinking about testing one. When your backpack is taken, you usually notice pretty quick. If you can activate the alarm by remote and track your way back to your stuff...you can imagine the rest.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

When they start following me back to my hotel room ... that's when it's professional. Leaving beta power out in an unlatched case is a big mistake at Gencon. On Saturday and Sunday it's shoulder to shoulder in the dealer hall, trying to see an arm pop up and grab something is nearly impossible. The ones that blow my mind are the dealers who literally have a cashier and maybe one other dude covering their booth. I can't believe they don't get robbed blind.


Leaving a box worth 20k in plain sight is being very unaware. That is all.

This selfish indifference from so many players is why theft goes unchecked at tournaments. This is a problem that can happen to anyone, but until it happens to them, childish assholes are just going to continue to victim-blame.

If everyone recognized how common and serious this level of theft was, and kept their eyes open not just for themselves, but in general at tournaments, there would be fewer card thieves around.

And it actually HAS gotten professional. At the Open in Baltimore there was a guy who just grabbed a binder in the middle of a trade, ran, threatened to shoot someone who made a move, and had a getaway driver parked ride outside the center.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Yeah thieves are getting worse.

#1- It's obvious the time has come to not allow spectators on Vintage and possibly Legacy matches. Every Vintage event I've been to in the past 5 years at least one person has had a Vintage deck, fully powered stolen off the table directly in front of them when they turned around for 2 seconds. Some guy also had his entire Legacy deck stolen in the middle of the Champs while he was sideboarding.

#2- When there is probably a $500K worth of product out on tables there should be security cameras, end of story. GenCon needs security cameras on dealer hall and Vintage/Legacy tables.

#3- Events are fucking slacking off on security so it's time for the players to take matters into their own hands. With 3-4 nanny cams you could cover both entrances to an event and at least 5 rows of tables each. With a backpack and a couple boxes of commons you could set a trap. The event holders seem to have this, "It's not our stuff, so keep a careful eye on your own stuff and it's your own fault if it gets stolen" attitude. That's all fine, except that now keeping a careful eye on your stuff is not good enough. Now adays thefts happen in a matter of seconds. I heard about one guy who was walking by the Vintage matches on the edge tables and when both players were attending to life totals he walked by and scooped the top 10 or so cards off one of the libraries and walked off into the crowds. That kind of thing happens in under a second and is hard to detect even if you are looking directly at the deck when it happens.

[Leftconsin]

And it actually HAS gotten professional. At the Open in Baltimore there was a guy who just grabbed a binder in the middle of a trade, ran, threatened to shoot someone who made a move, and had a getaway driver parked ride outside the center.

Thats less of a concern at GenCon because Magic is played in such an out of the way back corner it is a 3 minute jog to the front door. Smaller venues absolutely need a local cop or similar at the door at all times now.

We really were having a lot of stuff stolen off tables in front of their owners. I know from experience doing deck checks that players have tunnel vision. You are talking to your opponent, thinking about sideboarding, working out what is the best line of play, and so on. Unless you are physically attached to your stuff it will be gone in a crowd. I was on staff and I didn't even bring my backpack; even though I was able to put it behind the sides stage.

The only thing I brought into the hall was the deck I was loaning out that day (to a guy I've known for 5 years) and the judge foils I was selling that day, which I kept in my badge around my neck at all times.

[Sims]

Has It has gotten to that point where one has to carry just to play mtg?

Depending on the legality in the state you're in, I'm sure people do. The issue is in most circumstances this isn't going to be legally possible, and it really won't help that much. Someone takes your stuff and you don't notice it, what are you going to do, wave a gun around and say "give me my shit back" ? You'll get arrested. Someone takes the stuff, you notice it right away, and you take off after them... you warn, threaten, then pull a gun.. they keep runing. What are you going to do, shoot them? They aren't threatening your life in any way if they're running from you, so you just committed a felony. Even if you fire into the air (dangerous as hell, btw)... you committed a felony to hope they shit themself and drop your cards.

There is the hope that people would know if you're packing they won't fuck with your shit, but under most states laws if people know you're packing or you aren't concealing, you're committing a felony.

Edit: On topic. Despite having sold almost all of my collection and really only having Dredge/Burn and my EDH decks, I take hawking over my cards very seriously. The cards don't leave my sight unless i'm leaving them with a trustworthy friend or store owner (behind the counter typically). As far as during tournament play, when i go to large scale events I bring 1 deck, 1 life pad, a few pens, and a small amount of dice or glass bead counters that i can keep in a shirt pocket. I don't turn away from the table for anything and try to always keep my cards in view. It helps to be a tourist and bring a damned fanny pack big enough to fit just your deck or a hoodie and keep it in the front pocket so you can keep your hands on it at all times. I simply don't trust people.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Actually open carry is usually much more legal than concealed carry. Of course that doesn't change the fact that carrying a handgun to protect your Magic cards is a dumb idea. I think it's going to take the police stepping in with stings to put an end to this type of bullshit. I mean if we can 99% guarantee that multiple people are going to be at an event trying to steal $100K worth of merchandise maybe we could talk the police into setting up undercover cops to catch thieves.

[menace13]

The gun comment was sarcasm. I used it to illustrate how bad the audacity of thieves has gotten. If someone follows you into a bathroom and smashes your face in a urinal in order to rob you of your belongings, or snatches your binder in midst of a trade and runs off threatening to shoot while having a wheel man waiting outside, then how worse can it actually become at this point?

Also am aware it is a felony in NYC to carry handguns. The point was if someone is going to steal shit right off you brazenly they also won't hesitate to hurt you for it.

Edit; Criminals prefer their victims unarmed.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Yeah, I think it's time big events take a $1 collection from everyone who physically enters the event hall and uses that money to hire security.

[Sims]

Actually open carry is usually much more legal than concealed carry. Of course that doesn't change the fact that carrying a handgun to protect your Magic cards is a dumb idea. I think it's going to take the police stepping in with stings to put an end to this type of bullshit. I mean if we can 99% guarantee that multiple people are going to be at an event trying to steal $100K worth of merchandise maybe we could talk the police into setting up undercover cops to catch thieves.

I agree that it's a dumb idea and don't wish to really derail the thread, but the open/concealed carry is very dependant on state.

NY for example, all permits issued are carry/conceal. They've got restrictions on where you can bring the handgun but if you have it with you and it's not locked in a case it must be concealed or you're committing a felony. NYC it's a felony to own or posess a handgun (as i recall) outside of law enforcement.

So, it's up to the state and local laws. But whoever would do it to protect their cards needs their permit pulled.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Leaving a box worth 20k in plain sight is being very unaware. That is all.

And Hive Mind needs to be banned because it is ruining Legacy and completely unstoppable... Man you are just full of useful and intellectual comments, please continue to post your insights. We are all enlightened by your wisdom and thank you for not being a jackass and a complete retard, that is all.

[troopatroop]

This selfish indifference from so many players is why theft goes unchecked at tournaments. This is a problem that can happen to anyone, but until it happens to them, childish assholes are just going to continue to victim-blame.

If everyone recognized how common and serious this level of theft was, and kept their eyes open not just for themselves, but in general at tournaments, there would be fewer card thieves around.

And it actually HAS gotten professional. At the Open in Baltimore there was a guy who just grabbed a binder in the middle of a trade, ran, threatened to shoot someone who made a move, and had a getaway driver parked ride outside the center.

I grew up in Gamer's Guild Albany. You don't have to teach me about thieves, as that was the belly of the shark, and I've been taken advantage of. I also know what it's like to find a deck box and give it back, ask Alix and Jessie Hatfield about that. My point is, that this game is the only thing that could put 20k in a deckbox like that, and if you can't see (and always be aware of) the incredible danger that's in that luxury, then shit like this goes down. What's really dangerous is the complacency that soft, hyped up, and unaware mtg nerdboys show. If I bring a backpack to a tournament (which I don't anymore), I keep it wrapped around my chair, and snap check for it every 20 seconds. This was always a reality for me, so I'm not suprised. I'm not saying I don't sympathize, but you gotta handle your own shit. Magic cards are too easy to steal.


And Hive Mind needs to be banned because it is ruining Legacy and completely unstoppable... Man you are just full of useful and intellectual comments, please continue to post your insights. We are all enlightened by your wisdom and thank you for not being a jackass and a complete retard, that is all.

I think that Show and Tell should be banned. You really showed me, Holmes.

[Mr.C]

Back in Rio, there were organized groups of armed thieves that would rob binders at common trading spots. True story, and the reason I practically stopped trading in person there.

[nedleeds]

The best idea in this thread thus far is the clear aisle rule. For one it just helps clear things out, it keeps people from drooling on my BB duals, makes things cooler, and should help cut down on theft.

It's fun to spectate, but if this type of shit is to be prevented then this seems like the only way.

As far as the guys 'trading' on the side tables at Gencon, many were just dealers too cheap to get a booth or just quasi-dealers. If they get their stuff stolen frankly I don't care as much, they are breaking the rules by selling in the CCG hall anyway.

[betterthenandrew]

I used to have a chain (similar to a wallet chain) attached to my backpack at larger events. Im pretty bad at keeping track of my stuff, so it started as a way of making sure I didnt wander off with out my stuff, but it was also a way to make it a bit more diffuclt for someone else to walk off with my stuff. Security definately needs to be lifted, its not uncommon for people at eteranal events to be walking around with 10k in their bags, and most cards are impossible to identify if stolen. I suppose you could always start writing your names on the backs of your cards, but that's probably a bad idea.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Yeah, I think it's time big events take a $1 collection from everyone who physically enters the event hall and uses that money to hire security.

At Gencon you pat $80 to get in the door and then you have to pay for specific events. For that you got almost no security except for volunteers and regular Indiana Convention Center staff. I also saw maybe three officers in uniform but they were all in the dealers area. That is ridiculous.

[nedleeds]

Why would you expect armed security at a gaming convention? It's 90% RPGs and LARPs, board games and other stuff. Is there some precedent for a gaming con customer expecting security?

[Richard Cheese]

Posting this from another forum, seems relevant here:



He puts his deck down around a fat guy, moves around him to sit down, and all of a sudden his deck disappears. Stolen in the time it took to move around the fattie, like 5 seconds. Insane. Mad hustlers at gencon.


Keep in mind that this was at a restaurant near GenCon, not inside the convention center.

I think the lesson is to not go to GenCon. Prizes suck, rampant thievery, and Indianapolis is not exactly a destination city.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Why would you expect armed security at a gaming convention? It's 90% RPGs and LARPs, board games and other stuff. Is there some precedent for a gaming con customer expecting security?

GP Chicago
GP D.C.
SCG Open Baltiomore
Every big Yu-Gi-Oh tournament (From what I here from the players)

All had problems with thieves.

I was in line for a pretzel at GP Chicago when one of the judges started screaming for other judges and then just karate-ed this kid he saw stealing as the kid attempted to run. They found a ton of backpacks in his room and him and his gang all got charged in Chicago and got lifetime DCI bans.

They were simultaneously hosting a huge Yu-Gi-Oh event, Nationals, and Midwest-masters plus Legacy and Vintage champs where decks can range from 1k-20k. The lack of security in these halls was a lack of foresight.

[Sims]

The best idea in this thread thus far is the clear aisle rule. For one it just helps clear things out, it keeps people from drooling on my BB duals, makes things cooler, and should help cut down on theft.

It's fun to spectate, but if this type of shit is to be prevented then this seems like the only way.

This. Clearing the area around the tables and making people leave their tables when the match is done will help keep crowding and theiving down, make it cooler and hopefully a little less smelly, and also prevent any subtle tells from friends that could provide an advantage in the match. I think it's a pretty simple thing to ask.

[dahcmai]

Columbus wasn't much better. Did anyone run into the guy's outside with several stupid scams? GP Chicago had the famous tackle which I got to see right next to me. (Least a few got nailed there).

I brought two very large guys with me when I went trading to watch for people trying to scope out grabs in Colubus. It's not a bad practice if you have anything worth trading over the $100 mark. I also had one large transaction that I ended up having a friend use his phone to transfer the money through Paypal to my bank on the spot. Very safe way to do it and the vendor had no problem doing that. I think I'll make a point of doing that from now on out if I end up with cash. Doesn't cost anything so why not?

Crap getting stolen at these events seem to happen a lot more and more. I guess you can't expect people to not try stuff like that when you have a product sitting around worth thousands and it's easy to resell with virtually no way to track it.

Sad to hear there were more at Gencon. Hope they catch them, though it's probably a lost cause at this point unless someone's cut of the stolen cards is less than 5k. Good luck catching those asses.

[Richard Cheese]

virtually no way to track it.

Maybe the answer is to start signing all your own cards, at least the ones that are worth something. Hell, just get a stamp with your name and address on it. Doesn't affect playability!.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

PandaFarmer over at salvation just posted this link The Gencon Wrap – Someone call security! (http://ssmb.chadium.com/?p=836) about some unfortunate events at this years gencon and the author makes some good points.

[mchainmail]

Maybe the answer is to start signing all your own cards, at least the ones that are worth something. Hell, just get a stamp with your name and address on it. Doesn't affect playability!.

Maybe someone should set up an online site where you just add "serial numbers" to the cards, and then record any sale / trade.

[scrubbysniff]

Leaving a box worth 20k in plain sight is being very unaware. That is all.

Why are people jumping all over this dude? He's absoultely right, in the case of dealers if you have that much in stock you need multiple people there. Not much you can do about armed freakin robbery though.

[SpikeyMikey]

I think that if you're carrying several thousand dollars in goods on your person, you need to be aware that high level theft is a possibility and take steps to prevent it. When we've had discussions about card prices and reprints and whatnot, I hear a lot of "Magic is an expensive game, if you don't like it, gtfo." So pay someone $50 to come along and bodyguard your cards. Especially the heavy traders are making enough money every event they go to that they can cover it. And you'll probably spend half that on sleeves anyway. I personally wouldn't do it, but then again, I don't ownany cards anymore; I sold out because this game is retardedly expensive.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The best idea in this thread thus far is the clear aisle rule. For one it just helps clear things out, it keeps people from drooling on my BB duals, makes things cooler, and should help cut down on theft.

It's fun to spectate, but if this type of shit is to be prevented then this seems like the only way.


Agreed, people ought to contact SCG and Wizards about this, it's a good idea.

[Angelfire]

People should be vigilant, but blaming the victim makes you an asshole. Our society jumps to blame people who are not being paranoid suspicious douche bags 24/7 rather than vilify the pathetic dregs who steal instead of working for what they need. I would condone those $5k rewards being converted to bounties :P

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Agreed. There are two conversations we need to be having right now.

1) These people are douchebags. We should do everything we can to find them and get them locked up and/or eaten by grizzlies.

2) What can we as a community and individuals do to reduce our vulnerability to their attacks?

But let's not confuse the two with victim-blaming.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

I think that if you're carrying several thousand dollars in goods on your person, you need to be aware that high level theft is a possibility and take steps to prevent it. When we've had discussions about card prices and reprints and whatnot, I hear a lot of "Magic is an expensive game, if you don't like it, gtfo." So pay someone $50 to come along and bodyguard your cards. Especially the heavy traders are making enough money every event they go to that they can cover it. And you'll probably spend half that on sleeves anyway. I personally wouldn't do it, but then again, I don't ownany cards anymore; I sold out because this game is retardedly expensive.

Too bad you sold out, although you probably got a ton of money for your stuff. If you ever get the itch and you are in Platteville I am sure we can find you a deck.

On the notion of keeping aisle clear, that is a good idea but that wont stop all of it. I want these assholes arrested.

[Sims]

Too bad you sold out, although you probably got a ton of money for your stuff. If you ever get the itch and you are in Platteville I am sure we can find you a deck.

On the notion of keeping aisle clear, that is a good idea but that wont stop all of it. I want these assholes arrested.

By making it harder for them, you make the smart ones reconsider and you make the dumb ones get more bold. The bolder they are, the more prone to a fuck up they are, and you'll be able to catch them and arrest them easier.

One step at a time, my friend.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It doesn't help that when thieves are caught, they get a slap on the wrist or people buy whatever bullshit excuse (http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/articles/_/1757) they come up with.

Has anyone ever been jailed for stealing Magic cards? I mean do police even recognize that you're stealing thousands of dollars in property, or do they just laugh it off.

[sdematt]

In was told by the police when I got stuff taken (mind you, it was a mail fraud case for an online trade for power, but still) that they have murders to solve. Thanks, Officer Dickbag.

I think the best rule is keep the aisles clear. That way, they have to pass through and take something, making it WAY harder to do. They can't sit there and wait for you. I'd also love a system where if you suspect something's been stolen, they just close the doors. They should have doorman at every entrance if need be. We pay enough to get in, for Christ's sakes. I'd pay an extra $5 to have better security.

-Matt

[Ozymandias]

Anyone know where I can get a nice steel briefcase with a combination lock? Stories like this scare me.

[Julian23]

To be fair, carrying a steel briefcase with a combination lock would make you a high priority target for potential thieves, I guess.

[Koby]

Anyone know where I can get a nice steel briefcase with a combination lock? Stories like this scare me.

Just keep Mr Perry around. He's deterrent enough for pretty much anything under the sun. <3 him.

[sdematt]

They just take your briefcase and crack it. Or, if you're handcuffed to it, they just rob you in a more cryptic location. Like outside, etc. Plus, I figure you'll hand it over once they pull out the hacksaw.

-Matt

[Ozymandias]

It's not robbery I'm worried about as much as more subtle methods of theft. Besides which, at gencon, it would just be more cosplay.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Let's not get carried away here guys. I mean saying people are going to rob you aggressively when you handcuff a briefcase to yourself is a little bit of a stretch. Granted 2 or 3 stories of people getting strong-armed for their cards are out there but those are generally the exception not the rule. 99.99% of Magic related theft is slight of hand or crimes of opportunity. I mean from the stories I hear most people who steal post up and watch someone and the 1/2 second their attention turns away the crime happens and it's just that quick.

So the #1 way to prevent theft of your stuff is to be vigilant of your things at all times. It's highly likely that if you appear to be keeping a very close eye on your things they are less likely to be stolen. Put yourself in the mindset of a guy who is going to quickly snatch your things and be gone. Likely you are going to be on the lookout for people with "pimp" decks or expensive trade binders. You are probably going to stand back a little and watch them for a minute so you can pick the opportune moment to swing in and make off with their shit. Now, if you are watching me the first thing you are going to notice is me picking up my chair and wrapping looping my backpack through the leg, then putting the backpack in front of my legs so no one can ninja my binder out while I play. Then I take out my deck, sideboard and dice, zip up my back pack and start playing. If I'm a potential thief, my first thought is going to be, "this guy is paranoid," and move on. So you just have to know from here on out that playtime is over. Big events are no time to be fucking around with your shit unless you want it to get jacked.

That all said the people who host big events need to step up to the plate. Let's use SCG as an example since they have the most events. You can cover the entire floor of a convention center in low resolution with 2-4 very cheap security cameras. You can cover the entrances with another 2-3 cameras. Put a sign on the other doors that say "Emergency Exit Only" and don't have any reason for anyone to be near them and question anyone who goes near them. Put a booth at the entrance, it now costs $1 to enter the SCG event hall for a day. You step up to a booth, you pay your $1, you get a wrist band, there is a security camera under a sign that says "This Premises Under Video Surveillance" you look at the sign, you read the sign, your face is on camera. This setup would cost at most $1000 and my dad who doesn't own a cell phone could literally set it up. Seeing as how roughly 400-500 people a day enter SCG event halls this would pay for itself in a week or two. After that you use the money to pay the guy who sits at the booth selling wristbands and an off duty cop or two to walk around.

$1 isn't breaking anyone's bank and is a super small price to pay to reduce the chance of someone committing a crime of opportunity on you by roughly 1000x. I mean right now if you walk away from your deck box at a big event you have maybe a 25-50% chance of ever seeing it again. There are people who don't plan on stealing going into an event, but if they see a deck box on a lone table they can't help themselves. If these people know it's just a matter of rewinding a tape and re-watching them walk through the door walk around for a while then grab a deck box and walk off they probably wouldn't do it. Then all it takes is saying "My backpack got stolen while I was playing, I was sitting at this table #, it was roughly 3:30PM" and you can rewind the tape, see someone walking off with your shit, and rewind the tape back to when they walked in the door and see their face.

I think a large part of the allure is that there is no security at these events. Literally the only time I see Cops at a Magic event is about 45 mins. after I heard about someone getting a $5000 collection stolen. The Cops set up stings in the street all the time. They leave $3000 bikes hanging out of 1/2 open trunks or expensive cars abandoned in areas with high amounts of auto thefts and just wait for someone to steal it then pounce. How hard would it be to get them to setup a sting at an MTG event. I mean I can 100% assure them that if they leave a backpack with expensive cards alone on a table at an event the first person or 2 might turn it in but eventually it's going to be stolen.

These are the only kinds of things that are going to catch people who have been robbing us and our friends or stop them from committing crimes in the first place. The only alternative is to take some of these measures ourselves. I'm 100% not joking on this, I have considered setting up a trap backpack and then detaining the first guy who tries to hustle out of the convention center with it. How many times would you have to hear about some wannabe Magic thief getting stone cold busted before you reconsidered going to an event to steal?

[Michael Keller]

So the #1 way to prevent theft of your stuff is to be vigilant of your things at all times. It's highly likely that if you appear to be keeping a very close eye on your things they are less likely to be stolen. Put yourself in the mindset of a guy who is going to quickly snatch your things and be gone. Likely you are going to be on the lookout for people with "pimp" decks or expensive trade binders. You are probably going to stand back a little and watch them for a minute so you can pick the opportune moment to swing in and make off with their shit. Now, if you are watching me the first thing you are going to notice is me picking up my chair and wrapping looping my backpack through the leg, then putting the backpack in front of my legs so no one can ninja my binder out while I play. Then I take out my deck, sideboard and dice, zip up my back pack and start playing. If I'm a potential thief, my first thought is going to be, "this guy is paranoid," and move on. So you just have to know from here on out that playtime is over. Big events are no time to be fucking around with your shit unless you want it to get jacked.

I disagree on this point. The best way to absolutely guarantee to not have your cards stolen - in addition to other personal property - is to leave them at home. This form of protection will not only guarantee the safety of your cards, it allows you to focus more on having a good time instead of having to look over your shoulder or check for your belongings every five seconds. Seriously, what's the point of bringing thousands of dollars of cards to an event like this when you can set something up beforehand with a dealer to not only protect your investment but theirs as well. Otherwise, I see no point to put yourself in a midst of a financial thrashing when you can protect your cards, have a good time, and trade intermittently throughout the day at predetermined times with at least one other person by your side.

Everyone obviously has different aspirations going to events like Gencon, but there is no reason to put yourself at risk if your trading guidelines are overly restrictive (meaning your intentions are to only trade high-value items if a deal looks enticing). Otherwise, there is no reason to bring anything of value (other than your deck) to a venue filled with people who are looking to explicitly rob you blind. While this is obviously not applicable to dealers, patrons should bear the responsibility to the community to keep an eye out for low-lives like the ones who stole those cards at this event.

[luckme10]

And then there's the guy that won the world championship ticket for asking if they'll make a place where he can leave his kid unattended to play magic.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/twtw/153

[dontbiteitholmes]

I disagree on this point. The best way to absolutely guarantee to not have your cards stolen - in addition to other personal property - is to leave them at home. This form of protection will not only guarantee the safety of your cards, it allows you to focus more on having a good time instead of having to look over your shoulder or check for your belongings every five seconds. Seriously, what's the point of bringing thousands of dollars of cards to an event like this when you can set something up beforehand with a dealer to not only protect your investment but theirs as well. Otherwise, I see no point to put yourself in a midst of a financial thrashing when you can protect your cards, have a good time, and trade intermittently throughout the day at predetermined times with at least one other person by your side.

Everyone obviously has different aspirations going to events like Gencon, but there is no reason to put yourself at risk if your trading guidelines are overly restrictive (meaning your intentions are to only trade high-value items if a deal looks enticing). Otherwise, there is no reason to bring anything of value (other than your deck) to a venue filled with people who are looking to explicitly rob you blind. While this is obviously not applicable to dealers, patrons should bear the responsibility to the community to keep an eye out for low-lives like the ones who stole those cards at this event.

This is me disagreeing back with you. Good luck playing in a Legacy event without that $2000 deck. Good luck putting together that $2000 deck without a fair amount of trading. The best way to not get your stuff stolen is to sell it immediately and stop playing Magic.

All that aside though, your common thief is looking for a combination of easy mark and high yield. They may put themselves in extra danger to steal someone's pimped out Vintage deck or they may take your shitty collection if you leave it on the ground outside the bathroom while you take a leak, but generally they want to take the high dollar stuff while you're not paying attention and disappear.

I took my binder to GenCon with roughly $1000 in trade, roughly $500 Legacy deck, and roughly $100 Standard deck. I hawked it all weekend and didn't have any issues beyond jumping out of my seat every time the guy next to me accidentally kicked my backpack and I felt it move. It's not that the venue is "filled with people looking to rob you blind," it's that the venue is filled with people looking to play Magic and trade and roughly 5 to 10 people are looking to rob you blind, they just happen to look like everyone else.

[Dxfiler]

Yeah, I think it's time big events take a $1 collection from everyone who physically enters the event hall and uses that money to hire security.

The hell with the $1 collection. Those TO's are making bank. You need security cameras and/or staff at Gencon. Period end of story.

Gencon is notorious for not really caring about its patrons once they get your money, so that will prob never happen.

But still, you can't hold vintage champs there and not expect thieves to flock to it like moths to a flame.

Even GP's really need full security staff besides judges willing to tackle someone.

Magic cards are a big market and there are alot of thieves nowadays at 1,000+ player events. It's just part of the scene and TO's need to take it more seriously.

Not much else to add. People need to watch their stuff, but as pointed out by many, there are times when that just won't be enough. TO's should protect players better at large events. The end.

- Dave

[wolfstorm]

I know at GP Chicago they caught a group of people that were stealing cards - They had I think 3-4 different people that would each take turns going into the convention center and then running the cards back up to there hotel room. My 2 friend's (brothers) who had there entire collection stolen heard from the police that they had a mountain of binders and deck box's in the hotel room.

[Comrade]

Shit got stole.


Not to be a dick or anything, but....... Seriously. Shit gets stolen from these huge events ALL the time. Every year there is a new thread going on about professional thieves snagging backpacks and such. If I had $5000, let alone $20,000, cash on me? Shit, you can bet that that wad would be tucked snug between my cock and balls when not in use. I wouldn't leave $5000 cash in a box sitting on a table or in a bag on the floor.

To put it this way, if I flew over to Afghanistan and got my ass shot. Some people would say that I was a victim and couldn't be blamed, others would call me a dumb fuck for being over there in the first place. Regardless of what people would say, I would know the risk involved in going over there. That I could very well get my ass shot. Example is exaggerated for effect, but still..... You're taking high dollar magic cards to a place known in advance where there will be high dollar magic card thieves roaming about waiting for that split second when you fuck up and get distracted.

[Comrade]

PandaFarmer over at salvation just posted this link The Gencon Wrap – Someone call security! (http://ssmb.chadium.com/?p=836) about some unfortunate events at this years gencon and the author makes some good points.

Grey text on a black and red background = Awesome.


Also, for being a thread on magic card thieves..... There's a surprising lack of Magic Fanatic present. I don't even know where GenCon took place this year, but does that dude have an alibi?

LOL

[dahcmai]

At least they seem to be actually investigating it. I know a few people who got questioned at SCG Indy while I was there. They of course had nothing to do with it and knew nothing really helpful unfortunately, but it was nice to know that the investigators are still checking into it.

[xfxf]

I disagree on this point. The best way to absolutely guarantee to not have your cards stolen - in addition to other personal property - is to leave them at home.

This is pretty much like saying the most secure computer is the one which is disconnected from any network connectivity and with its usb/cd/floppy drives removed. Well then you can't actually use the computer for anything useful can you?

But unfortunately that's really the case and that's how I was act too. Back when I used to be younger and had a smaller collection my stuff would get stolen in my local gaming store quite often and because of the disputes between the local gamers the shop decided to close up an move somewhere else, it was getting out of hand. Now I don't have a trade binder. Unfortunately I just sell my excessive cards to online dealers at a loss and buy singles. When I go playing I just bring my deck with me and I hold it with me the whole time.

Cheating, rip-offs, theft, trolls, price jumps are all within this game unfortunately...

[nedleeds]

Gencon is coming soon ... already the fall out from last year is fermenting

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44278.0

[Esper3k]

Yeah it certainly sucks, but I'll still be going and will try and be extra mindful of where my stuff is.

[John Cox]

I'm not going.

[Mark Sun]

I'm also highly debating not going, unless they step up the security. I played with a non-foil deck with Revised duals last year, and much has changed since. Don't think I'm quite willing to risk it.

I did keep my stuff safe last year, but like Rich Shay mentioned in his post, what happened to Kenta is something you can't plan for.

[John Cox]

There were professional thieves last year too. Unless pastimes is prepared for that I doubt it will be much better this year, -considering how well they (the thieves) made off last year. I also really doubt pastimes knows how to deal with this.

[dontbiteitholmes]

@pastimesonline - Was @ GenCon last year, theft was rampant. Want to play Vintage/Legacy Champs but PLZ rope off area. Players only!!!


@nahholmes Thanks for reaching out to us! We will have more info on Gen Con security next week. Stay tuned!

Via Twitter. Maybe everyone should tweet them and ask for players only in play area. Seems like they are aware of the concerns of the players and willing to listen.

[sdematt]

What happened to Kenta? What did he/they get stolen, in particular?

-Matt

[dontbiteitholmes]

What happened to Kenta? What did he/they get stolen, in particular?

-Matt

I believe it was a foiled out UW Stoneforge deck. From what he told us I think he was sideboarding between games and someone stole his deck off the table when he turned his attention for a couple seconds. I think he quoted the damage at between $2000-$3000. If he won the match he was in top 8, but since his deck got stolen he auto lost. I could have missed some of the details of his story though I actually have a little trouble understanding him sometimes, his accent is pretty thick.

Also from ManaDrain Thread on GenCon Theft

Hello All,

I would like everyone to know the seriousness of theft at Gen Con, and other major events, is being addressed. Some of it has already been put into place at larger events, such as Grand Prix, and some will be new for Gen Con. Some we will discuss on open forums such as this, some we will keep to ourselves to see if it helps.

There is no question theft is a major issue. It is a significant issue at every event, large and small - especially when we are dealing with items that can be liquidated in short order - most of which are unidentifiable - and which are worth a great deal of money.

As we get closer to Gen Con we will update this site - and others - with information for people about what we are doing about helping make your "stuff" safer. We will also be offering information and suggestions about what you can personally do to help safeguard your items. While we do want to help - and we are going to be doing much more to help - ultimately we cannot be responsible for your items, just as Gen Con cannot, nor Wizards. There are actions we can take to make theft more difficult, and there is information we can share to help you safeguard your belongings - but the biggest suggestion is for people to figure out a plan before they walk in the door. What can you do to make sure your bag and cards leave with you?

There will be more space between tables and chairs this year - which we believe is the first great step.

Also, know this - if you come to Gen Con for Legacy and Vintage Championships, be prepared to deal with additional security measures. We will NOT be disclosing information about this until Gen Con as we believe it will help in the process.

We do appreciate the comments here, and on other forums. If you have anything you would like to share about your concerns, or suggestions, please email me directly at alan@pastimes.net

We do hope to see everyone there. I hope that anyone who has had second thoughts about going to Gen Con reconsiders and buys their badge - it is going to be an amazing weekend with some great new twists and turns for everyone - including a great new addition - the Gen Con Championship!

Again, thank you for the feedback - keep it coming. We will do our best to address your concerns as best we can - both online and off.

Sincerely,

Alan Hochman
President
Pastimes
www.pastimes.net

*please note that Pastimes Incorporated is a contractor for Wizards of the Coast and no comment made here is a statement for Wizards of the Coast.

[AriLax]

A more accurate account of the Kenta story :

Round N-2 at Legacy Champs is starting with Kenta and his opponent at x-1. Winner draws into top 8. He sits down, opponent sits down, they pull out their deck boxes. He is playing WU Stoneblade, which to my knowledge wasn't pimped out.

Head Judge makes and announcement, Kenta turns his head to listen. Turns back, deck is gone. No deck = loses match.

I don't know exactly what happened after that re: cameras, but I do know that he got refunded for the event.... in GenCon tickets.

[nedleeds]

Hopefully a combination of help from the organizer and increased vigilance and rage from the participants will hold the thieving hordes at bay.

[Esper3k]

Hopefully a combination of help from the organizer and increased vigilance and rage from the participants will hold the thieving hordes at bay.

Yeah, I'm pretty certain any thieves that get caught are going to be subject to a savage assbeating.

[dontbiteitholmes]

A more accurate account of the Kenta story :

Round N-2 at Legacy Champs is starting with Kenta and his opponent at x-1. Winner draws into top 8. He sits down, opponent sits down, they pull out their deck boxes. He is playing WU Stoneblade, which to my knowledge wasn't pimped out.

Head Judge makes and announcement, Kenta turns his head to listen. Turns back, deck is gone. No deck = loses match.

I don't know exactly what happened after that re: cameras, but I do know that he got refunded for the event.... in GenCon tickets.

I seem to remember him listing off some of the cards in the deck and most of the chase rares being foil, but again he has a thick accent and I can't always follow what he's saying.


Yeah, I'm pretty certain any thieves that get caught are going to be subject to a savage assbeating.

Can we just cut out the tough guy bullshit before we even start and focus on real solutions instead of acting like adult children?

[CorpT]

Hopefully a combination of help from the organizer and increased vigilance and rage from the participants will hold the thieving hordes at bay.

Have you dealt with Pastimes before? I'm guessing their idea of added security is to be sure to remind people that there are thieves out there twice instead of once. :rolleyes: Severely skeptical of Pastimes doing this any better.

[dakkon]

I hope at the minimum, Pastimes will enforce and restrict tables for tournament players only, and that you have to leave the area when your match is over. Having zero spectators hovering around you will greatly reduce chances of shenanigans. I'm sure most people will be diligent of their backpacks but having your deck taken by a passerby during a match is much more frightening.

[hyperchord24]

Theives will have had one more year to get smarter and bolder.

[cdr]

Have you dealt with Pastimes before? I'm guessing their idea of added security is to be sure to remind people that there are thieves out there twice instead of once. :rolleyes: Severely skeptical of Pastimes doing this any better.

This is probably accurate, unfortunately. Most TOs do not want to take one iota of responsibility for preventing theft - it's much easier to blame the players for having their stuff stolen.

[Esper3k]

Can we just cut out the tough guy bullshit before we even start and focus on real solutions instead of acting like adult children?

Please, with how the community as a whole feels about this issue, you want to try and talk crap to people in support of the community? -That- is your idea of being mature?

If someone catches a thief and is a little overzealous in taking them down, I am certainly not going to say anything negative about it.

[Mark Sun]

I hope at the minimum, Pastimes will enforce and restrict tables for tournament players only, and that you have to leave the area when your match is over. Having zero spectators hovering around you will greatly reduce chances of shenanigans. I'm sure most people will be diligent of their backpacks but having your deck taken by a passerby during a match is much more frightening.

If we get this, I would be incredibly excited. Even the wristbands (which are more hectic at Gen Con, admittedly) system that SCG used was okay.

[TheElvishPiper]

If we get this, I would be incredibly excited. Even the wristbands (which are more hectic at Gen Con, admittedly) system that SCG used was okay.

I agree!

[Esper3k]

0 spectators that aren't in the tournament would be nice. I'd also be surprised if they didn't have some sort of security camera setup this year as well.

[HokusSchmokus]

If someone catches a thief and is a little overzealous in taking them down, I am certainly not going to say anything negative about it.

Being overzealous("effective" is a much better word:P) is NOT the same as giving them a savage ass-beating, as you called it.
If someone does that, he/she could be into a lot more trouble then the thief, be aware of that.



GenCon should look at BoM. There was a security group there. It was a small group, but they did a pretty good job of showing presence and enforcing the no-spectator-rule at the playing tables(which really should be done at GenCon)

Exspecially since they host the so-called Vintage World Championship(which is a bit offending, but that's another story)

[nedleeds]

Everyone stop pulling out the ePeen. It's a magic tourney not a UFC fight.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Everyone stop pulling out the ePeen. It's a magic tourney not a UFC fight.

This.


Please, with how the community as a whole feels about this issue, you want to try and talk crap to people in support of the community? -That- is your idea of being mature?

If someone catches a thief and is a little overzealous in taking them down, I am certainly not going to say anything negative about it.

If someone catches a thief I'm all for doing whatever it takes within reason to stop them from getting away.

The problem is when people come on the forums and start getting aggro before anything happens that's just dumb. If someone catches a thief and they give up, beating them is not the answer, it's just another problem. We shouldn't be encouraging people to attack thieves, it's just that simple. If you see a thief do what it takes to stop them from escaping, yell thief, chase them and tackle them if they run, block their path of escape, if they try to fight you because you catch them by all means use reasonable force to keep them there until others arrive to help, they could be holding thousands of dollars worth of someone elses gear and you would want them to do the same for you. Whatever you do don't hurt someone unless they are fighting to get away, it's always possible that you have a case of mistaken identity.

[Richard Cheese]

I'm pretty sure you'd be the hero of the day if you managed to tackle a thief at a large Magic event. That said, at that point delivering an unprovoked beating is just going to make you seem all fight club creepy.

Really though we're focusing on the wrong issues here. Gencon doesn't suck because it's a thieves' bazaar. Gencon sucks because it's in Indianapolis and it's run by Pastimes. People should have been boycotting that shit for years already, so maybe there's a silver lining to the 5-finger discount cloud.

[Esper3k]

Being overzealous("effective" is a much better word:P) is NOT the same as giving them a savage ass-beating, as you called it.
If someone does that, he/she could be into a lot more trouble then the thief, be aware of that.

Certainly someone assaulting someone puts themselves at legal risk. I'm also not saying that someone SHOULD do it.

However, given the current feelings of the community on this, I'm saying that I wouldn't be surprised if someone did go nuts, but I also can't honestly say that I would blame them for it either.

[Koby]

gencon doesn't suck because it's a thieves' bazaar. Gencon sucks because it's in indianapolis and it's run by pastimes.

qft