Hive Mind and counterspells...

[Melwis]

If you have managed to get Hive Mind out can you use Pact of Negation to win the game without having a proper spell to counter or is it possible to counter your own counterspell with that same counterspell? E.g: I cast Pact of Negation to counter itself.

If that is possible I guess my opponent can do the same thus he/she does not lose the game in the following upkeep.

If the example above is not possible I am wondering if this following play is valid:

Cast Pact of Negation (Hive Mind is out) without a spell to target so it fizzles but the upkeep pay requirement still goes through for both me and my opponent? Or will my opponent be able to counter my Pact with the copy he gets from Hive Mind?

I hope I didn't confuse you too much :p

[Sims]

Pact of Negation, or any counterspell, must have a legal target on the stack to be cast. So no, you can't cast PoN on an empty stack to target itself.

In the situation where PoN is your wincon, you have to cast something first (brainstorm for instance) and then Pact it.

[Julian23]

There's a specific rule that a Counterspell can't target itself.

If it was possible to target itself, the world would implode because Pact of Negation countering itself would create a paradoxon when it comes to paying the upkeep, lol.

[Jander78]

There's a specific rule that a Counterspell can't target itself.

If it was possible to target itself, the world would implode because Pact of Negation countering itself would create a paradoxon when it comes to paying the upkeep, lol.

113.4. A spell or ability on the stack is an illegal target for itself.

Also, Arcane Denial would end up being the best draw spell in the game if cards could counter themselves.

[Julian23]

Thanks for quoting the rule :-).

I guess if Arcane Denial was able to counter itself, one wouldn't draw cards from it because the "countering" happens before the draw part.