RW Vial Hatebears

[ThoSha]

http://img.aegen.nl/ALA/Ethersworn%20Canonist.jpg

Moonblade


I have always been torn between Goblins, Dragon Stompy and recently Stoneblade lists,
but it couldn't find the right balance between Aggro, Hatebears and mana denial elements.
So i tried out several homebrew decks that aren't played in common but would be placed well in today's meta and compared them to each other.
The best one in that matter resulted in this list:

//22 Lands
3 Plateau
4 Marsh Flats
1 Ancient Den
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

//24 Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Aven Mindcensor
//7 Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawas Jitte

//7 Instants
3 Apostle's Blessing
4 Swords to Plowshares


A possible sideboard could be:

1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Serenity
4 Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt

So lets begin about the basics of the Deck and some card choices.
The main idea is similar to Goblins or Merfolk, building a board position while greatly disrupting the enemy's one, without much effort in mana spent.
After we have installed Aether Vial we can go for mana denial in form of Rishadan port and Wasteland while we ride our Vial curve to 3 and power out any single threat we have on our hand, which are widely available due to the high creature count. Why are we not running counters? Why would we? We have threat density in form of Stoneforge Mystic fetching Batterskull and Mirran Crusader, we have super disruptive hatebears like Cannonist and Magus of the Moon which just plain own the enemy's plans in building up his board position. Mother of Runes is pretty supportive in protecting our Magus to prison the enemies manabase, and Magma Jet can kill those little outlets just after they saw the light of day and fix your draws.
Other cards like Gaddock Teeg were considered but proved to be unstable and bad for the deck. Ethersworn Cannonist does just as much against Combo and you can easily hardcast him without screwing your own manabase.
The swords were chosen for the current meta, having a good chance against NO RUG, Patriot, tribals and Maverick. Swords can be fit to personal preference, but this toolset was quite satisfying for me.


The deck was already testing and performed well against GW Maverick, Merfolk, Goblins, TES, Bladecontrol, 4color Control and Hivemind.

Now share your thoughts with me.

[Angelfire]

Overall I like the concept and love the color combo (RW is my favorite). I feel like decks that utilize Stoneforge and Vial are greatly underused. I also feel like Mom is one of the most underplayed cards in Legacy. Grim is in my top 5 favorite cards of all time.

A few critiques:
1.) Why Helix over Bolt? You don't wanna "dodge" MM with 12 1 drops and Bolt is much better.
2.) Body/Mind seems like a weaker choice than Feast/Famine or Light/Shadow, both for protection colors and effects produced.
3.) What is Ethersworn designed to stop? Besides against Storm combo she doesn't do a whole lot and she can even slow you down.
4.) With only 4 burn spells, 8 Fetches and 4 Wasteland I feel like Grim might go hungry too often. I would suggest trying to supply him with more food (more removal and/or Manamorphose).
5.) Moon man coming down on turn 3/4 seems like he will often be too late. His brokenness comes from being accelerated out, especially when you don't play an abundance of removal or other early board holders.

[ThoSha]

Thanks for the feedback, i will explain your points from my view:

1.)Lightning Helix is just great. I feel its stronger than bolt since it gives you a 2 side advantage with the lifegain, which can be relevant in aggro mirrors.
Mental Misstep is also an argument, since Helix is our only mainboard removal except Lavamancer and it has to resolve to do something, and you wouldn't want to give your opponent a midgame target for Mental Misstep other than creatures who get less effective on your side too. It was relevant in killing a Jace today since my opponent didnt play Spell Snare.

2.)Body and Mind seems like the stronger idea than Feast and Famine in terms of the pro green. Having an extra blocker each turn can be relevant if you go farming with your mirran and equip the token after combat. It also provides an extra clock if things arent going according to plan. Feast and Famine does nothing in this deck since we have pro Green and Black on mirran already, we dont benefit really from untapping and the discard isnt all that great.
As for Light and Shadow it could deserve testing, but i am very happy with my regular choices. Sliding trough an opposing Goyf or KotR can be all that matters to win.

3.)Ethersworn is a solid maindeck choice as it slows other decks down in terms of removal(brainstorm into swords wont work for instance), gives a main out for Combo such as TES, Belcher or Hive Mind and provides a Body for swords too.
I think he is one of the better choices in this slot. But if you would like to have more removal, you can just swap them SB for the StPs.

4.)I know the issue, but his main task is to shoot once or twice for early garbage thats on the board like Hierarch, Birds, Bob or SFM. He fills that task pretty well even without further food. I tried to fit in Manamorphose tough, but i didnt value it over any other slot to cut.

5.)I played Dragon Stompy for quite a time and i exactly know how good an early magus is. But i also know how devasting a surprise magus out of a vial can be, and he just stops 2/3 from opponents manabases even if they expect him. 1 or 2 fetched basics wont be the plan if we have mother backup to protect him, so he plays really fine on Turn 3 or 4.

[ThoSha]

Well, the deck didnt catch much attention so far, but i still want to post the latest changes.

Grim Lavamancer was replaced for 4 Magma jet and Ethersworn Cannonist went into the sideboard making room for 4 Serra Avenger.
The deck works smoothly and i suggest some people to try this out, you will be stunned.

[Squirrel]

I had a primer on a similar deck a while ago(on another forum), ich called it RW Mystic Recruiter, it was quite strong to play with 4 Imperial Recruiter fetching all cards ( Mother of Runes, Mystic, Mirran Crusader, Magus etc.) but because of the Price of the Recruiter the thread got buried. I didnt play Rishadan Port, good idea

your list looks really straight, here are soem card i would suggest you:
-Basilisk Collar and Grim Lavamancer was funny as hell
-you should play Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt.
-Phyrexian Revoker was really strong with Magus of the Moon.
-Elspeth, Knight-Errant was a strong sideboard choice against slow jace.dec, but double white was sometimes hard to get.
- Aven Mindcensor fits good as equipment carrier and disrupts very good sometimes
(-Imperial Recruiter, if someone have those, they are GREAT)

Just some thoughts, even i cant play all the cards i mentioned :-)

I played something like the following list:

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Aether Vial
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Mother of Runes
3 Mirran Crusader
1 Aven Mindcensor
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Wasteland
4 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
6 Plains
2 Mountain

[ThoSha]

Thanks squirrel, those are great suggestions.
Of course Imperial Recruiters seem tempting, but yeah.. thats the budget reason. =) Your list albeit looks incredible, making Aven Mindcensor a very good choice as a 1of. But even without the recruiters the deck plays itself amazing.

Towards your other points:
-Lavamancer is strong, but it kind of got mana hungry when your opponent doesn't counter, and wasting my own plateaus just for another removal kinda bugged me.
-I wouldn't be too sure that Swords and Bolt are still that good. This deck needs its removal to succeed, and that in times were every dork and his brother play mental misstep.
So far Helix was amazing and Magma Jet does a nice job in terms of card quality, just by the way when killing an opposing SFM or whatever.
-sure, Revoker is awesome especially with vial and magus. Swords in SB seem kinda awkward now with 8 maindeck removals, im gonna change that again.
-elspeth is good, but i dont feel she belongs in this deck. its like playing Koth in goblins
-Aven Mindcensor is a fine card if you can afford the recruiters. But making him a random 1of just sucks as much as playing 4 when you see multiples.
Also not the greatest synergy with 8 fetches and SFM.

[Qweerios]

Thanks squirrel, those are great suggestions.
-I wouldn't be too sure that Swords and Bolt are still that good. This deck needs its removal to succeed, and that in times were every dork and his brother play mental misstep.
...
...
-Aven Mindcensor is a fine card if you can afford the recruiters. But making him a random 1of just sucks as much as playing 4 when you see multiples.
Also not the greatest synergy with 8 fetches and SFM.

Every deck wants its removal to succeed. Counterspells are still in the format the last time I checked. Big aggro decks don't pack that much MM and even if they do, its still a 1 for 1 trade that deals them 2 damage for your tempo loss. Besides, if they were holding a MM in such a deck, it's 1 less creature in their hand for you to remove. If you're that afraid of MM, play MM yourself. In fact, I don't see how you can play a Vial dependant deck (Meaning vial + creature build up) without playing 3-4 MM. Bolts and StP are leagues better than Helix and Jet simply because they cost HALF less mana for the same/better effect. Landing removal + 1CMC spell on T2 or removal + 2CMC spell on T3 is much more important than to play inferior removal in fear of a potential MM. Also, if you think about it, what if your opponent plays a big aggro deck with no MM in it (Zoo, Goblins, etc..)? Your removal is impaired by a card they don't even play, that's sad.

As for Aven Mincensor, he only affects your opponent. You dig your library as deep as you wish.

My 2cents on your deck:

Your current list is basically mono white vial aggro with magus and bad removal thrown in. It doesn't feel like red is adding anything of value to your deck. You might want to look into Deadguy Ale old Vial aggro lists and switch your Plateaus for Scrublands and Magus for Bobs. There are better hatebear options in BW decks too. IMO, the main reason for you to choose red as your splash is to abuse Magus and Grim.

Starting with the manabase, if you play Magus of the Moon, play only Plains fetchlands because they are the basics that you actually need. You probably don't even need Mountains but 1 can't really hurt. 2-3 Plains combined with 8+ fetches is ideal.

Since you play SFM, play Basilisk Collar and Grim please, it's a lock on aggro.

With that being said, you have access to 8 cheap removal, grims, MoR, and equipments. Assuming you pack all of those, you shouldn't have trouble dominating the board.

Flying > Random Protection. Mirran Crusader without equipments isn't good. Try to keep your curve at 2CMC as much as possible.

Play Revokers. In this kind of deck, creature size isn't that relevant. They will shut down secondary mana sources, equipments, plainswalkers... you name it.

Grand Abolisher might be worth looking into as well, despite being focused on hatebears, this deck doesn't pack that many.

[Squirrel]

So, just some thoughts about the deck (im talking about a Deck without Recruiter, now and in the next posts):

Mental Misstep: i think this Deck is a little bit like Deadguy Ale or Maverick, but lacks Green Sun's Zenith or cards like that. i played Mental Misstep as a 3-of (didn't say that in my last post^^) and its simply as in any other of the nonblue creature decks playing ist: it's really good at protecting your guys and vials, and slows the opponent down. i think it should get its place in the deck.
also helps against other mental misstep and we simply overload the 1cc
because i think as qweerios said, Lightning Bolt ans Stp are better than Helix and Jet and peope are playing spell snares,too.

Aven Mindcensor: He only shut down your Opponent's Mystics, NO,GSZ, Infernal Tutor,Intuition, and his ability to have flash and can come of a vial is really good.He is played in maverick for the same reason.

Vial @2 or @3: i think we should stay with Vial @3 and play cc3 creatures because of Magus of the Moon. He coming off a vial is often gamebreaking. Remember to tap the Vial and ask if they wanna react because if you just put Magus of the Moon into play with Vial without asking them, they can just go back and respond to the Vial Activation. (always tap vial at end of turn is another funny trick:-))

@ Rishadan Port and the whole manabase: i dont think it's worth in this deck because it's a mountain often. i don't think you have that much mana in the first turn where you want to play bolts,moms, vials and revoker, and later you habe magus. that's a difference to wasteland, which can shut the opponent of a colour without extra mana.

So, here's a new take on the deck:

RWHaters:

4 Aether Vial
3 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Basilisk Collar
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mother of Runes

This deck relies very hard on equipment, because of having nothing bigger than 2/2. But i like it and it completely destroys creature based decks. im still searching for cards you can play here, like spellskite, mirran crusader and so on. Figure of destiny needs testing, too

Excuse my English hope it was clear :-)

Squirrel

[ThoSha]

Uhm yeah, with the latest changes its really not that hard to put some Lavamancers into the deck. Not sure about the number, but playing 2 was fine in testing. I'll give Mental Misstep and the 1cc removals a shot. What i am certainly not going to change is the Mirran Crusader, as he is just as gamebreaking with MoR as Magus of the Moon and plays nice with the Stoneforge Package. I wouldn't worse up my matchups against widely played decks like maverick and no rug just because of Aven Mindcensor, which is not as devastating as an equipped Crusader at all. And yeah I misread his ability, sorry. << He might be a sideboard option tough, or maybe a 2of.
The main problem i face is keeping the manadenial plan steady and still go with 20+ creatures for aether vial, since i want threat density over control elements.
Rishadan Port has been good for me, as he keeps decks from having all colors/4mana for jace/order while vial ticks up for moonman. Taking them out would make the deck weaker.. And why would you care about it being a mountain? It fullfilled its duty when it becomes a mountain already.
Other than that the manabase feels alright, but i agree that fetching plains is more important than duals/mountains. Sometimes its hard to play a serra avenger if you played Moony before, but if you fetched for 2 plains its alright.
And if you dont have vial out, she is a strong turn4 play because you still can tap/waste opponents lands or leave mana open for removal.

Vials gonna curve out on 3 in this deck, but i wouldn't want more then 8 slots for 3cmc because of the manadenial plan. Mirran Crusader and Magus of the Moon go so well with each other that they dont need another bomb. All you can do is decrease their number for something better, which i have not seen yet.

On Squirrels list:
Well, i like the revoker, but only in sideboard.
I know you almost always have targets, but i wouldn't have him rot in hand if i am not certainly sure what hes going to bring. To me its the perfect definition of a sideboard card.

I will test this list with -3 revoker -1 aven, +4 mirran and see how it works out.
Thanks so far. =)

[Qweerios]

What does Vial bring to this deck compared to other aggro decks? Unlike DnT, Vial doesn't offer any strong synergy with any of the creatures. I think this deck would benefit more from additional creatures or Chrome Moxes than Vials. You can argue that Vials bring uncounterability, enables combat tricks, and provides midgame tempo but those points aren't good enough to justify its use. Zoo, Maverick, Deadguy, don't use vials and yet I could see them fit more in there than in this deck.

[ThoSha]

@Qweerios
Yes, no DtB except merfolk plays vial, but i cant see an argument in that.
This deck is designed to beat Bant, Maverick, No Rug and Merfolk so using an advantage that most of those decks dont seems fair enough for me. Arguments for vial are those you stated, and these 3 points have massive value in this format.
Its totally ok for me to not run missteps, but its not possible to run this deck at its best without Aether Vial. Try this deck with vials in reality and then tell me they dont have a high impact on games.
By the way is it a keycard to enable the manadenial plan.
Of course vial is a bad topdeck later in the game but for that reason i tried to include magma jet, which worked just fine. There is no final list yet, but the core of the deck including Aether Vials ran amazing so far.

[ThoSha]

So its time to fuel this thread again with some first tournament results lately.
I became 3rd this week on a local Tourney with the following list:

//22 Lands
3 Plateau
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plains
2 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

//22 Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Grim Lavamancer

//8 Artefacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawas Jitte

//8 Instants
4 Lightning Helix
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Magma Jet


SB:

3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Manriki Gusari
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt

Round 1: Vs UW Stonestill
Game1: I had a nuts hand with Mother of Runes, Magus, Vial, Helix and 3 lands.
He went first going for brainstorm while i set up my vial which got forced.
Next turn i draw vial, it resolves and i waste his Tundra.
He goes with SFM next turn fetching Batterskull.
Mother of Runes saw the day of light and his SFM saw a Lightning Helix.
Vial ticked up to 3 and eot Mirran Crusader joined the fun. He hardcasts his batterskull but sees no way to win this anymore, as i equip my crusader with batterskull few turns later.

Sided out: 4 serra avenger, in: 3 Revoker 1 Oblivion Ring
First turn nothing happened on both sides, 2nd turn he went for a Circle of Protection: Red. I didnt have a helix or lavamancer in hand but i still put my Revoker on Circle, which resolved. He hardcasts a sword of fire and ice and my sfm fetches Manriki gusari next turn. Magus happened on my side and Revoker got equipped with the Manriki which ended the game surprisingly fast to my favour.

1-0

Round 2: Vs UWR Patriot
This was scary as i never tested against it before and my goblin list got mashed up pretty bad by the same deck last weak. Nevertheless i win the dice roll and go for vial, which gets forced. He mulled to 6 also, so that ment big card advantage already. He went for Lavamancer, i went for Helix. Next turn he SFMs for batterskull. I go for the same. Next turn i resolve a Mirran and he puts his batterskull into play followed by a SOFI. I drew SOFI from above and put it on the table too. Now Mirran stalls the game for like 6 turns until i resolve a Serra Avenger. Serra gets equipped with Batterskull and Mirran got attached with the sword, which I could have done before what would have made concede way earlier. Win.

Sided out: 4 Serra, Sided in: 3 Revoker 1 Manriki Gusari
2nd game is pretty much the same, but this time i mull to 6 and he to 5.
We both build up board position, but i sword his SFM and he forces mine.
I have sword of fire and ice on the table and he goes for jace.
He handles my lone threat and fateseals me to 9 or sth. He put something below and i draw a helix to shoot at jace and buy me some time. He goes up to 10 again few turns later and puts a Mirran on bottom. I draw Revoker, put it on jace, equipped next turn with SOFI and swing to the win.

2-0

Round 3: VS NO RUG
Ok this matchup is rough if you dont draw really really good.
He sets up a bird, which i handle with a stp and next turn waste his Tropical.
I go for Magus of the Moon which stalls him a bit.
He keeps putting dorks on the table until he gets the Natural Order and kills me 2 swings later. Whatever.

Out: 4 Magus of the moon(i know thats not the best decision, but he doesnt do that much anymore if your opponent expects him and boards in hate anyway), in 4 oblivion ring.

He starts with Hierarch and i sword him. He plays GSZ into dryad arbor and i waste it next turn setting up a Mother of Runes which gets mistepped.
I go for SFM into batterskull.
He doesnt have many cards left in hand due to mulligan and puts a saving Sylvan Library into play. I have an oblivion ring in hand and thought it was a good play to exile his library which resolved. He went for NO prog next turn while i only have a batterskull left on my side. Next turn I play SOBM and pass. He swings for 10. Next turn i race against prog with Batterskull equipped with Body and Mind and get a wolf token. Life totals where really close, he beat me to 11 next turn while he was on 8 or something. I messed up right there because i fetched into a Plains eot because i didnt want to draw a land, but i didnt notice i was on 10 already. So on his turn he just put a Goyf into play and swung trough. Really bad mistake, but it wouldnt matter anyway as i milled him an ancient grudge into his graveyard. Oh well

2-1

Round 4: Vs GW Maverick
Game 1: I win dice and start with an aether vial.
He goes for Hierarch. I helix his hierarch next turn. He goes for Tarmogoyf and passes, i vial in mother of runes. I go for SFM finding batterskull and pass. He plays Sylvan Library and i put my batterskull into play. He plays a Knight which is just 3/3 until there and i Helix it. No further threats were coming. gg

Sided nothing.

Game 2: That game was weird. It was a back and forth wasteland battle resulting in him putting pressure on the table first and having the great opportunity to SFM into Sword of War and Peace which completely hoses me without Runemother.

Sided out: 3 Magus of the Moon, in: 3 Oblivion Ring

Game3: This felt way better with an opening hand of 3 lands and Oring and some threats too. He sfms his sword telling me he had batterskull on hand already and i SFM batterskull. He GSZs into Qasali pridemage waiting on my reaction to put batterskull in leaving 1 mana open to blow it up. I go for Batterskull and luckily he blew it up instead aether vial on 3. So next turn i go for jitte and vial in eot Mirran crusader while he just puts his SOWP into play. I get rid of his sfm leaving him with no body on the field and Oblivion Ring his SOWP just for being sure. Next turn he GSZs into Qasali again but luckily he forgot about the oblivion ring and blew up my vial and left with this strange Towerland that gives protection from artifacts. I draw my only Magus of the Moon left in the deck and ignore that plan, mirran and jitte go the way left.

3-1

Round 5: Vs Dredge
Game 1: I have the nuts in hand with Jitte, swords and Lavamancer.
He doesnt dredge anything relevant in his first turns so i equip lavamancer with jitte and go in. next turn he goes for moeba and 2 bridges.
I play a mother of runes and waste his only land. He never draws a 2nd.
He dredges his 3rd bridge and some ichorids. My lavamancer shoots himself for removing all the bridges and the jitte counters take care of 2 moebas and sword eats ichorid. I follow up with Mirran and he concedes.

Out: 4 Magus of the Moon
In: 1 Crypt, 3 Surgical Extractions
Game2: I start with Mother of runes and jitte again. He has some early bridges but no bodys yet. Next turn he dredges for 6 and puts the Narcomoeba trigger on the stack. In response i extracted all of them, then extracted the bridges. Now he was staring into a mother of runes equipped with jitte killing his ichorids before he could dread return his Elesh Norn. Cool story bro, i just beat him down with Mother and Helixes, sfmed into Sword of Body and Mind and milled him to death.

4-1

So my comments on this take are:
-Lavamancer as a 2of was awesome, and even if he only shot 2 times he still had great impact on games.
-Manriki Gusari is an awesome sideboard card right now.
-Cannonists put some dust on them since there was no relevant combo matchup
-Magus of the Moon was awesome all day, shutting down 80% of manabases.
Except in the NO RUG matchup where i only stalled a bit he had great impact on other matchups.
-Mother of Runes in combination with Mirran and Serra/SFM is the nuts. It lets you tutor safely for batterskull even if you know you will NEVER get the 5 mana.
Equipped Crusader with all protections is also nuts and spells gg in a Progenitus way.
-Serra was also awesome, she breaks stalls and is the cheapest good beatdown creature i ever played, not mentioning the awesome vigilance ability paired with a sword or mother.
-Aether Vial caused some extreme surprise effects, as i often fetched for basics and people put me on white weenie, when a huge Magus slams their face.
Nuts card, still undervalued.
-Carddraw didnt matter. I always had more cards in hand or equal than the decks playing blue, except they resolved a Vision of course. This deck is on par with Patriot anyday without packing blue at all. Too bad i never drew the singleton magma jet, but i bet he has similar value as brainstorm for this deck.
-Lightning Helix matters. I almost raced Progenitus with it and its 2 sided advantage breaks combat maths. Fuck Lightning Bolt, this card is shit compared to that.
-Too bad i didnt face fish, as i would have completely raped it. 10-0 in testing vs good lists.
-To make the NO RUG matchup more even, i will remove 2 Orings from my board and place 2 Phyrexian Metamorphs in there instead. Awesome card, would have won me this instead of the Oring.
-Winning g1 against dredge really made me smile.


-and last but not least: Awesome Boros deck is awesome. :)

[from Cairo]

Aven Mindcensor seems better than Ethersworn Canonist as a SB option. Mental Misstep gives you a good boost against Combo Elves, and isn't bad vs ANT/TES - Revoker complements these as well. Mindcensor can nerf NO, Intuition, Green Sun's Zenith, SFM - obv Fetches. Just seems like it splashes against more of the format: RUG, Hive Mind, Maverick, Stoneblade, etc.

I'm trying to see if I can work something like this deck with a Stompy manabase (hybrid of Angel/Dragon) to capitalize on faster Revoker/Magus/Censor and help equipment costs. My thought is that I'd rather be abusing Revoker to hit opposing acceleration: Noble, Moxen, Vial, G. Monolith, LED, and then throw down a land disruption card. Not sure it's a better direction, but something to consider I suppose.

I guess this leads into the question of how is Aether Vial working for you? Is the compromise of speed better for the EOT/uncounterable plays?

[ThoSha]

Like i said in the opening post i played dragon stompy for a while.
The problem in this concept is the all in factor of it.
While 1st turn moon punishes some decks completely when it resolves, it doesnt do anything against stable manabases or mono color. Playing with the concept in a shell that wins without it seems much better for me. Sfm, Serra and Mirran will win you games regardless if the moon effect works or not, but its still a viable lock once it sticks. It works in a very consistent way and i dont see myself ever returning to a stompy shell, as its plain bad if your opponent can play around it or counters the key cards, not even mentioning mulling to 5 hoping to get a sol land.

Revoker is just a sideboard answer to very specific questions like Circle of protections for instance. Why bother putting a revoker on hierarchwhen you can just burn him? Of course you can bring him in if you think he is needed.

Aven is a good idea i guess, but i still havent actually tried him out. Against Hive mind i would rather have cannonists and surgical extractions for intuition.
Nevertheless he seems valid, i would like to have some feedback if anybody tried him in this deck.

Aether vial is just the nuts, as it gives you an advantage either way.
If you play it and it resolved, you just got free access to uncounterable tempo sfm, mirran, serra and mother of runes while greatly disrupting the manabase with ports or wasteland. If it gets misstepped, you just protected your Mother or Lavamancer and can still play your curve regularly. And the jackpot is having it forced so that you have card advantage right away without even doing anything. Feels like a 1 mana hymn to tourach sometimes. If you follow up with a SFM its really hard to lose this anymore. If you draw it in the midgame dont worry, you have a winning board position already most of the times.

[catmint]

Me and my buddy played agaist ThoSha at the local tourney he posted. We discussed this deck a lot and especially like the amazing board presence this deck establishes.

I play NO Rug and I think the best way to beat it is to use the power of mother, mindcesor, wasteland, jitte and magus. I have a lot of burn postboard for magus, but you have mother and he always has the potential to win the game. I would not side him out! 2 Metmorph in the sideboard help of course.

Some thoughts that crossed my mind:

Is burn in the form of helix/jet necessary? You win usually with an overwhelmig board presence anyway and not a race and jitte, lavamancer and swords should be enough removal!

I would run 3 Grim lavamacer to make sure you have him on the starting hand often enough.

Curving out with 2 Elspeth seems also very nice! Provides such a powerful end game!!

I would put a stronger focus on the mana denial plan so Mindcensor main might be an option.


So I would take the list you played at the tournament and go:
- 4 Helix
- 1 Magma jet
- 1 Serra Avenger

+ 1 StP
+ 2 Elspeth
+ 1 Grim Lavamancer
+ 2 Aven Mindcensor


and in the SB
-2 O Ring
-1 Surgical Extraction
-1 Revoker (you don't need him on the startig hand and usually not in multiples, so 2 is enough)
+ 1 Mindcensor
+ 1 Sword of Feast and Famine (additional combo disruption)
+ 2 Phyrexian Metamorph

[Qweerios]

Lightning Bolt is much better than Helix for the simple fact that it is HALF the cost. Of course Helix gets the same job done as Bolt and has the added benefit of dodging Misstep, but it still restricts the amount of plays you can do in your early turns. Avoiding MM is a blurry argument to begin with, it's the same as "it dies to removal". If you lose the die roll and must kill their T1 drop, having 8 1CC removal effects far outweighs gaining 3 life for doubling the cost of half your removal. Here are some examples:

Hierarch in a NO deck holding at least 1 counterspell;
Lackey in goblins;
Mother of Runes in any form of Stoneforge deck;
Dark Confidant in a Chrome/Ritual Deadguy deck;
Any elves in combo elves;
Grim Lavamancers in general;
Zoo...

Furthermore, notice how only 1 of these decks will actually pack MM consistently. Another good argument in favor of Bolts > Helix is tempo. Suppose you win the die roll this time, your opponent drops one of those 1CC abominations, you get to remove it AND lay your own Vial/Mother/Grim/Wasteland. Most Legacy games are determined by the first 3 turns. Besides, gaining 3 life doesn't affect board position and is only relevant in very limited circumstances.

Aven Mindcensor is a metagame bomb against SFM decks. Take out those Avengers and get some Mindcensors instead. They come down faster, aren't as Vial dependant, disrupt your opponent's fetches/SFM/Intuition/NO/Tutors, and they fly. I would gladly trade p/t and vigilance for added disruption in a "hatebear" deck.

Why 6 non-white fetchlands? You play Magus and double white costed creatures. Your deck is white based with a red splash. Play at least 8 Plains fetches. I also don't think you need a second basic mountain in there. Are the Rishadan Ports really useful? I think Wastelands are fitting but that Ports take up unecessary deck space.

Also, I would seriously consider packing Misstep. Coupled with Bolts, StP, Wastelands, and Vials, you get some serious tempo game. Especially in a deck packing hatebears, denying removal on said hatebear could prove fatal. MM opposing MM/StP/Bolts targeting Magus/Grim/Mother/Mirran/Aven or simply securing T1 vials.

Here is what I would play, feel free to discuss my choices or slap my arrogant face for giving you advice on a deck that I probably played for less than a week.


Creatures (21)
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor

Artifacts (7)
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Spells (11)
3 Mental Misstep
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Plateau
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
Enlightened Tutor
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Phyrexian Revoker
Ethersworn Canonist
Phyrexian Metamorph
Aven Mindcensor
Aura of Silence
Shattering Spree
Red Elemental Blast
Mental Misstep


P.S: Your tournament list contains 24 lands, not 22.

[catmint]

Nice Arguments for Bolt over Helix Qweerios! Still not sure if they are necessary if the deck runs Grim lavamancer.

MM sound also very reasonable!

You don't think elspeth deserves 2 slots?

[Qweerios]

Elspeth is a great card that can dominate a board on its own if timed correctly. I opted against Elspeth because she costs 4 mana, requires protection, and acts as a creature but can't be vialed in. I just don't see Elspeth as a better card than anything already in there. I would play additional Mindcensor, Misstep, and even Equipments before Elspeth.

[catmint]

can't be vialed in is probably the best argument, however even if you play to 4cc creatures you probably often want the vial at 3, because mindcensor and magus love to surpise and spoil the party.

costing 4 mana is not an argument. 22 lands can support 2 4cc spells.

Requires protection is not valid: Protects itsself and has 4 toughness!

Elspeht NOT better than the other cards? How can you say that. After Jace and Tezeret the 3rd best Plainswalker. She provides card advantage and ESPECIALLY many creatures to carry the equipments!

[ThoSha]

What would you drop in my current list for elspeth?
I run:
22 lands
2 lavamancer
4 runemothers
4 serra avenger
4 SFM
4 Magus of the moon
4 Mirran crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Bolt
4 StP
3 Equip
4 Vial

I dont like cutting removal really, and the curve is just fine right now.
I also tried 2 to 3 Misstep in this deck and its real shit. I will never run this shitty card in any nonblue deck again, my word on that. Bolt won over Helix, thats true. The only thing i would discuss over anymore is the sideboard, that looks like that right now:

2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ethersworn Cannonist
4 Leonin Relic-Warder(AWESOME vial tech)
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormods Crypt
2 Phyrexian Metamorph



On Queerios list:
You really got me going that way, i tried your list 1:1 convinced by your arguments and in reality it was just awful. The missteps just blow because as a 3of you will often see them lategame. And what happens in the lategame? We either have an overwhelming board position right there or we lost already. Topdeck misstep in this case is worse than topdecking a land.
Then 8 Removals and 3 lavamancer were also not convincing me. Its not that nice when you get a hand with multiple bolts and swords and also lavamancers. Thats just really really bad and can never win against any established deck, especially not the ones running few creatures. Had this situation quite often when i had 2 removals and a lavamancer in hand, then topdecked a super awful 2nd lavamancer while not being able to feed the first more than once.
The curve also creeped me because 2 drops were lacking, so either you have stoneforge mystic or you cant ride your curve good enough. I figured 6 1drops, 8 2 drops and 10 3drops are just about the best as it can get, so serra avenger went right back into the mainboard. After realizing all of this i wasnt even wondering why you didnt play this pile longer than a week, as it was really lacking some punch.

[Qweerios]

It is true that a hand full of removal is bad against any combo or control heavy matchup. Then again, this deck is pretty much a metagame choice and you already play it with the premise that you will fold to combo in G1. Aside from Magus and Mom, this deck has nothing against heavy control decks either such as BUG and Landstill, I don't see it recovering from a board sweeper ever. What this deck is good against? Aggro and Aggro/Control decks, the most popular decks in the meta atm (combo excluded). Playing 8 removal and pushing a board presence is all this deck has to offer in G1. With this being said, don't use examples of G1 resulting in bad hands against creature light decks (control/combo) because the matchup is inherently bad. If you really want to blame something for your bad hands, blame the choices you made on the color wheel. I think the real question you should be asking me is: "Why am I not satisfied with a hand containing bolts, swords, and grim lavamancer in a W/R deck?".

How does Serra Avenger smoothen your curve without a Vial? Do you always get a T1 vial? Even with a T1 Vial, how is Avenger considered a 2drop if you can't lay it the turn following your Vial? How relevant is Vigilance with 8 pieces of removal and grim lavamancers? I mean, it's fun and all to cheat an Avenger a turn earlier with a Vial, but its a weak play. For the love of Magic, don't play Serra Avenger over Aven Mindcensor in a Fetch/SFM/NO/GSZ infested meta.

Regarding Mental Misstep. I play G/W Maverick and Angry Astronauts(Green Aggro/Blood Moon) when I attend tournaments and I play anywhere between 3-4 MM. There is a reason why MM redefined the format, anybody can play it and playing around it makes your deck slow. I usually Top6 in 30-40 man competitions and I always pack MM in non-blue decks. For instance, I have tied for first place Tuesday going 6-0-1 packing 4 MM in a non-blue creature based deck and MM has been my saving grace in 2 of those matches. It is easy to argue that MM is a dead topdeck but in reality, so is Vial, Removal vs no creatures, Grim and Mother when they are irrelevant in the MU, and the list goes on and on.

I maintain that this deck is a hardcore metagame choice to begin with and that its best shot at success is to pack maindeck hate against the most relevant decks to beat. Bad matchups such as combo should be accounted for with lots of sideboard hate.

On a different note, I think Grand Abolisher might accomplish more for this deck than Aether Vial. I can understand Vial in a deck like Merfolk where you can abuse the explosiveness of a 2-3 counters Vial with consecutive lords and upset the card disadvantage with Standstill but i really don't understand what it brings to a board domination/disruption heavy deck that cannot produce card advantage or any real pressure until an equipment hits the board. Lets look at pros and cons:

Pros of Vial
-Uncounterability of creatures
-Combat tricks
-Slight early game tempo boost
-Surprise effect

Cons of Vial
-Dead topdeck
-Inherent card disadvantage

Pros of Abolisher
-Uncouterability of any spells during your turn
-Disruption in various forms: anything you do during your turn is basically Split Second and everything your opponent does is at virtual sorcery speed
-Beats for 2 and carries equipments
-Fulfills the 2drop gap in the curve

Cons of Abolisher
-Vulnerable to creature removal
-Situational disruption

When taken into the context of a R/W "hatebear" deck, Vial's pros are mostly wasted while it's cons cannot be mended. However, Abolisher`s pros are welcomed additions that fit the deck`s strategy and its cons can be outset by other cards already in the deck.

Again, for Espeth, I didn't put that much thought into the card because I don't feel a need for a lategame bomb. I preffer having a smoother curve and more early game consistency than having a potential lategame Elspeth. I feel competent enough to win my games wiht >4 CMC spells. Test Elpeth and tell us about it!

[ThoSha]

It is true that a hand full of removal is bad against any combo or control heavy matchup. Then again, this deck is pretty much a metagame choice and you already play it with the premise that you will fold to combo in G1. Aside from Magus and Mom, this deck has nothing against heavy control decks either such as BUG and Landstill, I don't see it recovering from a board sweeper ever. What this deck is good against? Aggro and Aggro/Control decks, the most popular decks in the meta atm (combo excluded). Playing 8 removal and pushing a board presence is all this deck has to offer in G1. With this being said, don't use examples of G1 resulting in bad hands against creature light decks (control/combo) because the matchup is inherently bad. If you really want to blame something for your bad hands, blame the choices you made on the color wheel. I think the real question you should be asking me is: "Why am I not satisfied with a hand containing bolts, swords, and grim lavamancer in a W/R deck?".

How does Serra Avenger smoothen your curve without a Vial? Do you always get a T1 vial? Even with a T1 Vial, how is Avenger considered a 2drop if you can't lay it the turn following your Vial? How relevant is Vigilance with 8 pieces of removal and grim lavamancers? I mean, it's fun and all to cheat an Avenger a turn earlier with a Vial, but its a weak play. For the love of Magic, don't play Serra Avenger over Aven Mindcensor in a Fetch/SFM/NO/GSZ infested meta.

Regarding Mental Misstep. I play G/W Maverick and Angry Astronauts(Green Aggro/Blood Moon) when I attend tournaments and I play anywhere between 3-4 MM. There is a reason why MM redefined the format, anybody can play it and playing around it makes your deck slow. I usually Top6 in 30-40 man competitions and I always pack MM in non-blue decks. For instance, I have tied for first place Tuesday going 6-0-1 packing 4 MM in a non-blue creature based deck and MM has been my saving grace in 2 of those matches. It is easy to argue that MM is a dead topdeck but in reality, so is Vial, Removal vs no creatures, Grim and Mother when they are irrelevant in the MU, and the list goes on and on.

I maintain that this deck is a hardcore metagame choice to begin with and that its best shot at success is to pack maindeck hate against the most relevant decks to beat. Bad matchups such as combo should be accounted for with lots of sideboard hate.

On a different note, I think Grand Abolisher might accomplish more for this deck than Aether Vial. I can understand Vial in a deck like Merfolk where you can abuse the explosiveness of a 2-3 counters Vial with consecutive lords and upset the card disadvantage with Standstill but i really don't understand what it brings to a board domination/disruption heavy deck that cannot produce card advantage or any real pressure until an equipment hits the board. Lets look at pros and cons:

Pros of Vial
-Uncounterability of creatures
-Combat tricks
-Slight early game tempo boost
-Surprise effect

Cons of Vial
-Dead topdeck
-Inherent card disadvantage

Pros of Abolisher
-Uncouterability of any spells during your turn
-Disruption in various forms: anything you do during your turn is basically Split Second and everything your opponent does is at virtual sorcery speed
-Beats for 2 and carries equipments
-Fulfills the 2drop gap in the curve

Cons of Abolisher
-Vulnerable to creature removal
-Situational disruption

When taken into the context of a R/W "hatebear" deck, Vial's pros are mostly wasted while it's cons cannot be mended. However, Abolisher`s pros are welcomed additions that fit the deck`s strategy and its cons can be outset by other cards already in the deck.

Again, for Espeth, I didn't put that much thought into the card because I don't feel a need for a lategame bomb. I preffer having a smoother curve and more early game consistency than having a potential lategame Elspeth. I feel competent enough to win my games wiht >4 CMC spells. Test Elpeth and tell us about it!
I dont get why you put this deck on a bad control or combo matchup.
What i like most in the current meta is, that this deck beats all the DTB. No matter if Hive Mind, Blade Control, Merfolk or Maverick. It just rapes them for the simple fact, that its built around them, so yeah its a metagame deck somehow. For boarding Revoker and Ethersworn Cannonist its really hard to lose to combo ever again. Against Control we have Aether Vial(which you dont like somehow), MoR, Mirran Crusader, Moony and Aven Mindcensor. I dont see any bad matchups so far, but please correct me if i am wrong. I also dont see losing to sweepers completly, because with an EE they can never hit more then 2 since our curve is balanced and mass sweepers like Wrath also dont mean you cant recover from it. Just keep in mind that overextending is really bad and you should rather be playing equipment instead of the 4th or 5th dude. Against aggro i guess the sfm batterskull plan is all you need, and against zoo we have 7-8 removals and some lavamancers. The only matchup that we will always lose is Aluren, i honestly admit that.

About the misstep concern: I dont get your attitude on that. You dont really care about what your opponent has for 1 drops as long as you have removal, tempo plays and manadenial plan going. If you think Aether Vial is a topdeck that bad that it isnt worth to be included, what makes you so convinced that misstep is?
Aether Vial is the nuts, it gives you tempo, free casts and uncounterability, which makes it a nuts tool all over the game that your opponent will even try to force, or grip if needed. Any good opponent will do that, because Aether Vial is busted in any aggro deck. Besides that its pretty mana fixing as sometimes you dont have double white, got wasted on red or just simply cant make 2 plays that really matter, like hardcasting Aven Mindcensor and equally vial in SFM eot. I think the 'card disadvantage' is well worth it on that matter. So moving back to misstep, what has this card to offer? Yeah, you win one out of 678 games against control when they keep a 1land hand with brainstorm and no counters. You can counter a Hierarch or Nacatl with additional removal in hand.. You can counter hightide which is an autowin postboard eventually. You can counter Dark Ritual which is even nastier card disadvantage than Aether Vial.. etc.
I realized one thing out of your list. If you have bad topdecks already, then adding another 3-4 is just a no-go.

About the color wheel thing i can just say that every combination, even mono color somehow, is valid in this game cause it can compete under certain circumstances. Many cards in every color combination were printed, so all you have to do is build them together to the best deck in your situation. If you simply say you chose the wrong combination of the color wheel, then you either are a bad deckbuilder or you dont have any order in the current meta.

About Serra Avenger:
She is one of those midgame drops that make this deck very good.
I am not talking about the vigilance, i am not talking about her being cast earlier, i am just talking about that she fits in perfectly.
In this deck, if you dont have a vial going, you are about to set things up slowly, like casting a mother, then going for stoneforge mystic. If you had both serra and sfm in hand, be honest, you would play sfm first anyway. So if you have a serra in hand, no worries. Batterskull comes down next turn eot, paired with a nice wasteland most times, and then on your fourth turn you have MoR, Batterskull and Serra. Besides that you set up double white for Mirran and SFM for further Equipments. Serra on Turn 4 is ok, but serra equipped with SoFI on Turn 5 is busted. The same is true with Jitte and Batterskull obviously, and yeah here does the vigilance matter. Your most aggressive creature on the board also serves as a gatekeeper. All this points were obvious for me to begin with, so she was an auto inclusion after short time of playtesting the deck. We dont rush to have a 2 drop on turn 2 when porting some land is also fine, but we have a high quality 2drop on turn4. And even in a hatebear deck(should maybe rename it in WR Tempo or sth ¬¬) 24 quality creatures are better than 30 random ones which MIGHT get there and be TRICKY in that kind of way like Grand Abolisher. I mean he is an ok 2 drop, but nothing we would need on turn2 absolutely, we just need a 2 drop to have the best out of vial and being more flexible with playing creatures and also porting/playing removal on the same turn. And after the core is setup, you really dont have to worry about counters or removal anymore. Removal more than counters obviously.
Besides noone plays Serra Avenger over Aven Mindcensor, thats just a wrong statement. If you say i play Mirran Crusader or Magus of the Moon over Aven Mindcensor you are damn right, but arguing between playing a 2 drop over 3 drop makes no sense in a balanced curve. I love Aven as a Magus backup, acting as disruption Wizard 5 and 6, where he is doing really fine. Multiples do nothing, so 2 is fine.

About Elspeth i am not sure somehow.
Even tough she would be a great lategame card, i also dont think I can fit her in. Like i said the only slots i could trade for here are Lavamancer or some removals, which kind of stinks for me tbh. I share your opinion here that we are just fine with what we have already.

[catmint]

I agree with Qweerious concerning Serra not beeing a 2 drop. She comes 1 turn earlier with vial though.

I think vial is important because at some point you want to play creature + equip + remove or something. Therefore you need the mana that vial provides.

Why shouldnt the deck recover from a sweeper. maybe not a deed for 5, but with a sword on the table you just need another beater and the creature count is high.

Compared to this list I would:
22 lands
2 lavamancer
4 runemothers
4 serra avenger
4 SFM
4 Magus of the moon
4 Mirran crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Bolt
4 StP
3 Equip
4 Vial

- 1 Bolt -> +1 lavamancer
- 2 Bolt -> + 2 Elspeth
- 1 Serra -> + 1 Mindcensor

when building a deck I think the best way of figuring out how often you want to play a card is by asking youself the question:

Do I want it as often as possible on the starting hand and are multiples good!
-> 4 times

Do I want it regularly on the starting hand but not necessary in multiples
-> 3 times

I dont need it necessarily on the starting hand and I dont like multiples
-> 2 times

Tutor target / random
-> 1 times

There are of course exceptions like vial or combo pieces, where these simple questions don't apply.

However, Grim lavamancer is best early game but not good multiples -> 3.
Him providing constant burn I dont think you need additional removal to swords. If you want to leave 2 in I would cut 1 more serra and 1 more mirran for elspeth.

I am not sure about Serra, because she is JUST a beater and equiped you can beat with anything. I just feel you want more hatebears in a hatebeardeck. Accoring to my "deckbuilding rules" you could cut 1 magus, but since he can be a gamebreaker you might risk having multiples...

[ThoSha]

I dont know about increasing lavamancer and cutting Bolts..
If you ever played this deck by yourself you would notice that Lavamancer is not that good in here, since his use is limited to 1 or 2 shots. Besides that, Grim is an installment and not instant removal. If he bites the dust before activation he was neither removal nor threat. I would go with Stp/Bolts anyday over Lavamancer, but as 2of he is okay. I also dont see a point in cutting removal to increase Grim count and Elspeths since Grim has even less food then.
Skipping elspeth for now, but might come back to her in the future.

I guess the Serra count is just personal preference, but i was never unhappy with seeing 2 in 1 game. Compared to that it very much sucks to see a 2nd mindcensor. I mean the 1st one has some limited use if you get lucky, but the 2nd is just really bad. Eating removal is sometimes the best as Aven can get, but when that happens you want a serious threat coming after.

[catmint]

makes a lot of sense. as I said before I am not sure if the deck needs burn. maybe it doe, but why not cutting cutting lavamancer completely if he does net get enough fodder.
With 7 removal + 8 Turn 1 plays you don't really need more 1 drops...

[Qweerios]

I dont get why you put this deck on a bad control or combo matchup.
What i like most in the current meta is, that this deck beats all the DTB. No matter if Hive Mind, Blade Control, Merfolk or Maverick. It just rapes them for the simple fact, that its built around them, so yeah its a metagame deck somehow.

Completely false, this deck does not completely destroy all the DTB. It has an even matchup at best against Zoo, NO RUG, and maybe Bant, Maverick, and Blade Control, a favorable matchup against Merfolk, and an unfavorable matchup against Hive Mind for sure.


For boarding Revoker and Ethersworn Cannonist its really hard to lose to combo ever again.

A Revoker is highly situational against combo(its pretty bad actually) and a single Canonist on the board will not win you the game, especially with a slow clock. Siding Canonist and Revokers might be the only things you can DO against combo, but it doesn't mean they make you autowin G2-3, far from that.


Against Control we have Aether Vial(which you dont like somehow), MoR, Mirran Crusader, Moony and Aven Mindcensor. I dont see any bad matchups so far, but please correct me if i am wrong.

Will do. I reckon the BUG landstill MU might be better than I gave it credit for, but recovering from a Deed still looks impossible to me. Also, answering a handfull of cards with a deckful of answers is a walk in the park for a control player. MoR has to be dealt with immediatly, which is quite easy for a control player, Mirran is only really a bomb against BUG unless they have a Jace out (they can always Deed it too), Mindcensor and Magus can always be answered after they hit the board, although, Magus is a hard blow to BUG. I think the control MU is still not close to even simply because you have 10-12 dead cards G1 that dont have to be answered and your clock is too slow to prevent most combo decks from stabilizing.


The only matchup that we will always lose is Aluren, i honestly admit that.
Along with Hive Mind, ANT, T.E.S., High Tide, Four Horsemen, BUG landstill, Pox (will become increasingly popular with the new Lliliana), and Burn...


Aether Vial is the nuts, it gives you tempo, free casts and uncounterability, which makes it a nuts tool all over the game that your opponent will even try to force, or grip if needed. Any good opponent will do that, because Aether Vial is busted in any aggro deck.going.

Really? Any good opponent will KGrip Vials? C'mon now...


You can counter hightide which is an autowin postboard eventually.

How many times have you played against hightide? I am curious as to what makes you autowin the MU.


About the color wheel thing i can just say that every combination, even mono color somehow, is valid in this game cause it can compete under certain circumstances. Many cards in every color combination were printed, so all you have to do is build them together to the best deck in your situation. If you simply say you chose the wrong combination of the color wheel, then you either are a bad deckbuilder or you dont have any order in the current meta.

I don't think you understood what I meant there. If you are going to play an exclusively white and red deck and complain about a hand full of the best white and red cards that the Legacy card pool has to offer, you are effectively playing the wrong colors in your meta.


Besides that, Grim is an installment and not instant removal. If he bites the dust before activation he was neither removal nor threat.

How does that make any sense? If your Grim bites the dust before he gets to be activated, he was clearly a threat and has effectively ate removal.

@Catmint, My reasoning on Grim Lavamancer #copies exactly. Grim is one of the reasons to play red and you want one.

[from Cairo]

There is a lot of debating going on, but I think we're more or less refining the list of "best w and r" cards for an agro-disruption list. IE I think we're mostly in agreement that from White you want to be taking Swords, Stoneforge Mystic, Mother of Runes, and Mirran Crusader. From Red we want Lightning Bolt, Grim Lavamancer, Magus of the Moon and sb REBs/Pyroblasts.

Our core list anyway looks something like:

Creatures ~20-22
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Magus of the Moon
3-4 Mother of Runes
3-4 Mirran Crusader
2-3 Grim Lavamancer
2-3 Aven Mindcensor
0-4 Serra Avenger

Instants ~7-11
4 Swords to Plowshares
3-4 Lightning Bolt
0-4 Mental Misstep

Artifacts 7
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of X and Y

Planeswalkers 0-2
0-2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Land 21-22

---

I think control and combo are our particular weak areas so Blasts, Angel's Grace, Revokers, Phyrexian Metamorphs, maybe supplemental Blood Moons should all be concidered for SB space.

[ThoSha]

Ok im really tired of discussing the core mechanics of this deck, so if anyone got a problem with a boros shell, play another deck. This is about the best as it can get.

Uptodate is an awesome tech i figured out in using Figure of Destiny over Lavamancer. I run 3/3 Figure/Mother split right now and i must say it plays awesome altogether. You can do beautiful plays like T1 Vial, next turn waste some land+ eot figure + lvl up. It has also great synergy with Magus of the Moon, so you can use your colorless sources like Port and Wasteland also for pumping Figure. The beauty in this is the simple fact that noone will really care about an early Figure of Destiny but it gets big very fast when Magus came down. It helps creating card advantage as you can take really much out of that card while holding your other threats back and take them in only if really needed, so you never run out of gas. I cant believe i haven't stumbled upon this really good Boros card before, but here it is.

from Cairo:
You are right with those sideboard suggestions. Its metadependent if you really need Blasts and Grace, but i wouldn't pack both for sure. Blast doesnt have really good targets, as merfolk is an
easy matchup preboard already.Blasting a Jace is nice, but i dont think its worth it. I tested Leonin Relic Warder in sb since i faced enchantress lately, and he is like an army swiss knife in many matchups.
Also not that bad boarding him against Hive Mind, as you can just pitch it to their Show and Tell and exile their Hive Mind and thats gg. About the Blood Moons i am also not sure, they seem very clunky without vial synergy and faster acceleration. Additional Mind censors might be the better call.

[ThoSha]

Gotta give Qweerious some credit for the Grand Abolisher idea.
I tested them in Serras slot and they were busted. The most times i lose close games is when i dont get to equip my creatures or my magus gets countered if there is no vial ingame. He fits in nicely and improves the control matchup so much, i guess hes really better than serra in this deck. Staple.

[Octopusman]

Hey ThoSha. I recognize you from the Dragon Stompy thread.
I have a ton of experience playing decks like this. It looks like my old thread was taken down but here are some inspirational images.

http://www.mouthrunning.com/pics/RWHate_11.png
http://www.mouthrunning.com/pics/RWHate_22.png
http://www.mouthrunning.com/pics/RWHate_33.png
http://www.mouthrunning.com/pics/RWHate_44.png
http://www.mouthrunning.com/pics/RWHate_55.png
http://www.mouthrunning.com/pics/RWHate_66.png

There were some big differences in our decks. The Leonin Arbiter/Mindcensor + Ghost Quarter plan is too shaky right now. I also ran Figure of Destiny and Ajani Vengeant or Elspeth.

I agree that the natural progression is/was to drop lightning helix, etc for plow and lightning bolt.
Magus of the Moon is a beast and I think we'll start to see him more and more (have a lot of success with him in my Patriot list).
My RW Hate deck was weak against Emrakul but I played it before metamorph. I opted for Stingscourger/Tariff and Karakas instead of O-Ring.


Ethersworn Canonist is great because it can come down T2. Playing a similar list with no protection, sometimes a T2 Canonist against Belcher can't even save you.

I tried Lavamancer + Collar many times and collar always ends up getting cut.
I'd like to test Mirran Crusader more. Although, with my personal preferences, I think I'd rather have the new Fiend Hunter in that spot. I think you'll connect with the play more often with Fiend Hunter because of the triggered ability as opposed to Crusader's protection. Of course, Crusader's clock is much faster. I tend to sacrifice speed for versatility and safety but perhaps Crusader is the finisher that was missing from my deck.


I really like the direction that your deck is headed and I thoroughly support it. WR Hate Bears... one of my favorite decks.

[ThoSha]

Sup Octopusman!
Nice pics, i enjoyed them as i had the same situations already, and those are great moments.

The deck is insane right now, more and more people acknowledge its power when i bring it in a tournament. If i were not to play against sucky matchups like Belcher, Enchantress(packed some relic warders for them now) and dredge who can just randomly pwn you, i would make 1st place very consistent with it. 2nd or 3rd is what happens every week.

I finally got the solution on the 2drop. Many people will laugh at this, but adding Squadron Hawk was the missing piece in the puzzle. Cawblade with Magus is pure beauty. They suspend visions? Fine, i'll vial in mine. ^^

NO RUG with Metamorph in sideboard is pretty favorable, as is SnT prog/em.
If you feel unsure, you can always back up on some REBs.

Relic Warder is a house against random enchantments like Solitary Confinement.
Or really annoying shit like Shackles. Or Equipment. It got many targets for sure.

Cannonist has been great for me against TES, Hivemind and Belcher.
Sure, sometimes you get just killed on Turn 1 by belcher, but thats just really random, as no mentally sane guy would bring a Combo deck without protection in a big tournament where half of the players play force and 3/4 play misstep already.

Lavamancer is too weak in this deck. I tried him several times, from 1-4 in numbers, but he didnt convince me in the long run. Figure of Destiny fits this deck way better.

About Mirran: Mirran used to be the bomb that finished my games with all the utillity on the table and equipments.
He himself is just a nuts finisher with the right protections, my word on that.
Double striking with 4 color protections, shooting Bob and Clique, drawing you 2 more cards, or just being imba equipped with Batterskull, 6/6 vigilance lifelink is just too sick. There wont be a better choice in his slot soon.

About the removal suit:
I ended playing 21 lands in favor of 8 removals: Bolt/stp in playsets.
But even tough i had mixed feelings about misstep, and that card sucked very hard for me, i think i'll go with 3 again next tournament. 4 stp/1 bolt and 3 misstep gives you nice versatility after all.

Thanks for your support, the goal is making this DtB.
And GP Amsterdam is gonna make it happen.

[Roman]

22 and 33 epic pics ;)
"Hi!"

[Philipp2293]

Thomas, could you share your most up to date list? Since you won't be playing too many tourneys on the next wednesdays IIRC, hope you don't mind it bringing myself (if I'm happy in testing, and Maverick ever lets me down.)

[ThoSha]

The most recent list is:

3 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Plateau

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Lightning Bolt
3 Mental Misstep
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
3 Mother of Runes
3 Figure of Destiny
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Mirran Crusader


Might go with the last 2 rounds tomorrow ;) see ya

[Octopusman]

I dug up my list just for reference. Consider the design restraints such as no fetches or Stoneforge Mystic. I eventually conceded that Leonin Arbiter isn't a successful strategy yet.
Still... interesting similarities.

Last modified the document 3/22/11


Main

Plateau 4
Sacred Foundry 4
battlefield forge 2
Plains 1
Karakas 1
Mountain 1
Wasteland 4
Ghost Quarter 4

Elspeth Knight-Errant 2
Grim Lavamancer 4
Figure of Destiny 3
Leonin Arbiter 4
Leonin Relic-Warder 4
Phyrexian Revoker 4
Mother of Runes 4
Aether Vial 4
Jitte 3
Swords to Plowshares 3
Path to Exile 4

Board:
Leyline of Sanctity 4
Tariff 4
Circle of Protection Blue 4 (this was a lol tech that I wanted to run against merfolk and prog)
Stingsourger 3


I already mentioned that I like the direction you are taking the deck better. Your latest list looks cool. I'd like to hear more about Squadron Hawk. With no scroll rack or top, I'm just wondering if there's a better use for the mana than creating potentially 4 1/1 fliers across multiple turns for 8 mana (or less with vial).

When I played in SCG San Jose with a similar list, I ran Duergar Hedge-Mage (turned on early by shocks and plateaus) and it can be a huge bomb. At that time, I was very concerned with counterbalance. Hedge-Mage was eventually supplanted by Relic-Warder which is absolute beast.

Once you get Ethersworn Canonist, how do you answer hive mind before they can just cast the pact on their next turn?

I'm not surprised to hear you're having a lot of success with this deck. I'm quite busy but I'm interested in helping out. Also, I have other decks that I want to run in tournaments instead of this deck but I can definitely test lists in a competitive environment at some point.

Interesting to hear you don't think [edit]lavamancer is a good fit. I love figures too and I originally wanted him for a UWr list with vial but nothing came of it. He beats at 4/4 pretty regularly and is totally rad with vial and magus.

I'm interested to hear if you're still convinced you need to include the port mana denial.

Keep up the good work! Depressing to see Mental Misstep in this list though. I have a Christmas Beatings deck (T1) and it runs 4 x pyroblast main. Starting to think that's not such a bad idea in Legacy...
Since creatures are your win condition, I would have to agree that nothing protects creatures better than mental misstep. The other lurking danger is sweepers. I noticed Revoker is gone - that would be one of the last cards I would remove due to shutting off EE and Deed which absolutely wreck decks like this due to the low curve and lack of card advantage.

I still want to see a sideboard that tackles the deck's bad matchups. Dredge, burn, combo, Show and Tell, ?
Surgical Extraction, Jotun Grunt?, Ghostly Prison?, leyline of sanctity, metamorph, - I am in love with Canonist though.

I'll keep thinking.

More testing!

[ThoSha]

Thats also an interesting list, even tough i think Leonin Arbiter is too weak in this meta. I didn't include Karakas because of the randomness and its not stable if you just start with this and a port for instance. Fetching Plains is unfair enough. :)

Your sideboard looks tight, CoP are an interesting tech. :D
Even tough merfolk is an easy matchup, CoP black/red or sth could help.
Tariff isnt really needed if you can just play metamorph.

My sideboard right now:
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormods Crypt
2 Phyrexian Metamorph

Squadron Hawk has been doing well in this list, as it gives you one thing that this deck really desires: Card Advantage. Once you have any equip on the table, every Hawk becomes a must counter, and they're going to run out of them. If they still manage to handle all your hawks, np, keep bigger stuff like Crusader coming. Worked really good until now, and the flying helps alot.


Duergar Hedge Mage would be AWESOME in the 2 slot, but i guess Leonin Relic Warder is the better man here. Nobodys playing counterbalance top anymore, so i wouldnt worry too much about not trading 2 to 1. You can do some tricks with Warder too, like if they shoot him in response to his CiP trigger, you take both his abilitys on the stack. The first you let resolve is the permanent back to play trigger, and then you exile their shit forever.

Canonist is a very tricky card too. Last time i played against Hivemind, i just let him build up via intuition and built up board position in the meantime. Leaving vial on 2, i just waited for him hardcasting Hive mind, and in response i vialed in Ethersworn. Next swing killed him. Or you can just pitch Canonist in their Show and Tell.

Figure is a very good 1 drop, especially with vial and magus, yeah.
I get him to 4/4 always before powering out other threats, in some longer games even 8/8, but thats pretty random. Sometimes he will eat removal right away.


Mana Denial is good. If you dont have a 2 drop, and your vial ticks up, its just a really strong play to cut the opponents white source or whatever.


Adding Misstep seems just like the only viable solution. The next weakest card in the deck is Lightning Bolt. And that says a lot i guess.
Its still arguable if you do a 2/2 split or 3/1, but 4/0 doesnt feel right.
Misstep is a very situational card, and if you have it in the midgame, anything can happen. Sometimes misstep prevents their saving cantrip or Stp, and sometimes it rotts in your hand when a Bolt killing Bob would be all you need.
I think i'll try a 2/2 split next.

About Revoker, hes still my dude. I love to bring him in on a really strong target. Thats the reason why he is in the sideboard, like Relic Warder. 1st game im kinda scouting if their inclusion really makes the cut. And only a 2of because sideboard is kinda tight already, and i wanna stay versatile enough.

You will laugh, but in the last 3 weeks REBs were about the last thing i ever thought about. Jace mostly dies to bolt too, and i really dont care about Counterspells. Hivemind is kinda takeable without them and counterbalance isnt really played anymore. I guess the REBs can stay home for now.

EE and Deed are often brought in against me, and this is where Revoker comes in handy. If not, i can force them to blow it up with Relic Warder. EE comes best at taking 2 threats at all. The curve is really balanced. Even a massspell taking 3 threats from you isnt as devastating as in the old days.
Actually i found a way to solve the card disadvantage problem with Hawk.
Bird Ringleader wins many games.

[Octopusman]

Thats also an interesting list, even tough i think Leonin Arbiter is too weak in this meta. I didn't include Karakas because of the randomness and its not stable if you just start with this and a port for instance. Fetching Plains is unfair enough. :)

Your sideboard looks tight, CoP are an interesting tech. :D
Even tough merfolk is an easy matchup, CoP black/red or sth could help.
Tariff isnt really needed if you can just play metamorph.

My sideboard right now:
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormods Crypt
2 Phyrexian Metamorph

Squadron Hawk has been doing well in this list, as it gives you one thing that this deck really desires: Card Advantage. Once you have any equip on the table, every Hawk becomes a must counter, and they're going to run out of them. If they still manage to handle all your hawks, np, keep bigger stuff like Crusader coming. Worked really good until now, and the flying helps alot.


Duergar Hedge Mage would be AWESOME in the 2 slot, but i guess Leonin Relic Warder is the better man here. Nobodys playing counterbalance top anymore, so i wouldnt worry too much about not trading 2 to 1. You can do some tricks with Warder too, like if they shoot him in response to his CiP trigger, you take both his abilitys on the stack. The first you let resolve is the permanent back to play trigger, and then you exile their shit forever.

Canonist is a very tricky card too. Last time i played against Hivemind, i just let him build up via intuition and built up board position in the meantime. Leaving vial on 2, i just waited for him hardcasting Hive mind, and in response i vialed in Ethersworn. Next swing killed him. Or you can just pitch Canonist in their Show and Tell.

Figure is a very good 1 drop, especially with vial and magus, yeah.
I get him to 4/4 always before powering out other threats, in some longer games even 8/8, but thats pretty random. Sometimes he will eat removal right away.


Mana Denial is good. If you dont have a 2 drop, and your vial ticks up, its just a really strong play to cut the opponents white source or whatever.


Adding Misstep seems just like the only viable solution. The next weakest card in the deck is Lightning Bolt. And that says a lot i guess.
Its still arguable if you do a 2/2 split or 3/1, but 4/0 doesnt feel right.
Misstep is a very situational card, and if you have it in the midgame, anything can happen. Sometimes misstep prevents their saving cantrip or Stp, and sometimes it rotts in your hand when a Bolt killing Bob would be all you need.
I think i'll try a 2/2 split next.

About Revoker, hes still my dude. I love to bring him in on a really strong target. Thats the reason why he is in the sideboard, like Relic Warder. 1st game im kinda scouting if their inclusion really makes the cut. And only a 2of because sideboard is kinda tight already, and i wanna stay versatile enough.

You will laugh, but in the last 3 weeks REBs were about the last thing i ever thought about. Jace mostly dies to bolt too, and i really dont care about Counterspells. Hivemind is kinda takeable without them and counterbalance isnt really played anymore. I guess the REBs can stay home for now.

EE and Deed are often brought in against me, and this is where Revoker comes in handy. If not, i can force them to blow it up with Relic Warder. EE comes best at taking 2 threats at all. The curve is really balanced. Even a massspell taking 3 threats from you isnt as devastating as in the old days.
Actually i found a way to solve the card disadvantage problem with Hawk.
Bird Ringleader wins many games.

Great post.
Thanks for this.

Yes, as I mentioned my list was from some time ago. I think that your side board is really solid.

Without tutors, having the metamorphs seems pretty random/unlikely when needed.
This problem has been driving me crazy and making me wonder if an enlightened tutor toolbox in the board would be best considering the lack of draw/filtering.

Overall, I think the sideboard addresses the harder matchups now that I look at yours. I just wish you could free up the 6 slots dediated to artifact/enchantment/ability removal with relic-warder/revoker. Perhaps they're best meant for the board although I feel very uncomfortable not having more MD answers.

The MD is looking really solid. If I recall correctly, I agreed with much of what you contributed to the Dragon Stompy thread. It's nice to encounter like-minded players.

More testing!


P.S. I will give hawk a try I guess. It really banks on equips but at least you can keep the threats coming like you said. Someone on the board mentioned that shroud was superior to flying. I disagree.

[ThoSha]

Went 2-1-1 on a small tourney today with this deck, playing against triple Stoneblade and Maverick. Now i can say the matchup against UW(r)Stoneblade is about 50%, as i won 1, drawed 1 and lost against the third. Just kidding, UW is favorable and UWr is even.
GW Maverick is very favorable, 60/40 at least, if not more.

Well, theres a major problem about this deck: It really sucks to mulligan. Most of the time you can keep your hand, as this is all well balanced out, but if it happens that you draw 2 non-lander hands, and your opponent has counters and mass removal, you are fucked. Obviously, just saying because that happened in my 3rd Stoneblade matchup. Usually that doesnt happen, but its still in the maths.

There also was a real funny situation against the UW matchup, where the guy landed a standstill on an empty board without manlands, and i had wasteland open. I kept drawing wasteland and ports, passing my turns. The guy didnt stick a single mishra in like 20 turns, then decided to break his own standstill for not being decked, letting me draw 3 Magus of the Moon. Should have gone with Visions, eh?


About Enlightened Tutor:
Sounds like a good idea, but there are some problems i stumble upon:
1.) Mental Misstep. It really sucks to lose the connection to your only out in a stupid situation like a big Emmy or Prog standing in front of you. Of course it could happen that they just force it, but being vulnerable to misstep in an urgent call doesnt make this any better. I'd rather draw one of 2 random Metamorphs, or board 3 Canonists/Revokers instead, which can be vialed in too.
2.)Sideboarding:
Honestly, what would you board out for the tutor?
Removal, Aether Vials? Doesn't really convince me.

If Misstep gets banned, which isn't unlikely, i would give him a shot.
But in this meta i'll stay with my outs on 2-4 spots.

There are some hard decisions to make for a GP, like if you rather had more Revokers in board against Control, or Ethersworn Canonists against random combo decks. Still not sure about that. The last 3 weeks Canonist did nothing for me, but who knows.


Yeah, i really liked DS, thanks for giving it credit. But even with creativity you cant always save a dying deck. This deck was great in times when TES and Treshhold were commonly played, but right now i think this direction is better.


Btw, Hawk was awesome today. Flying over Mavericks enourmous board position with a Jitte is ridiculous. And theres just no real way they can get rid of them. And they can always chump block a huuuge knight of course. Im beginning to like them more and more.

[Octopusman]

What are you bringing in to replace the missteps? I suggest 3 pyroblast ;)

[ThoSha]

Apostle's Blessing has been working decent for me.
Even tried it out when Misstep was legal in its place, as misstep
didnt provide protection to my creatures the way i wanted it too, and Blessing is sick.

Imagine: Dude having 5 duals, you vial in Magus of the Moon.
Tricky as hell they will try to get a White Mana floating before he resolves and then StP him, and then you tap that lone Rishadan Port,
pay 2 life and say Protection from White. :) Outstanding face expressions.

[Octopusman]

Apostle's Blessing has been working decent for me.
Even tried it out when Misstep was legal in its place, as misstep
didnt provide protection to my creatures the way i wanted it too, and Blessing is sick.

Imagine: Dude having 5 duals, you vial in Magus of the Moon.
Tricky as hell they will try to get a White Mana floating before he resolves and then StP him, and then you tap that lone Rishadan Port,
pay 2 life and say Protection from White. :) Outstanding face expressions.

Apostle's Blessing seems really really interesting to me. The :1: should be easy enough to have when it counts and you're right about the magus situation. If you can protect him, there's a good chance it's gg against a lot of decks.

It also solves the problem of trying to protect SFM long enough to fart out a germ which is what totally drives me crazy about the SFM+Batterskull.

I'm going to look into that more. The only downside is that if you have no creatures, it doesn't really let you interact with the opponent. I suppose it's way better than Rebuff the Wicked in this deck since you need to protect your hate bears. Have you ever used it to allow a crusader to waltz past blockers while equipped? I see it having a lot of use in that regard.

I'm just worried that perhaps it's not that great against control where it's still not going to stop then from countering your spells.

Has Shusher ever been a consideration for the side or is that kind of preposterous? I'm thinking of dusting mine off. When I played a similar deck I got devastated by counterbalance and some thing we may see more countertop now.

If you can't get vial, they can counter the whole deck pretty handily. What's the out to CB? I don't know.

Where was the split second REB for 1R?!

[ThoSha]

Yes, its pretty handsome. One game i played against Nic Fit getting into the lategame, where my opponent had a Witness on board and stalled with Sun Titan.
I had Mirran equipped with SoFI as my lone threat and he was at 10 life or sth. Double Apostles Blessing let me win this as i could just swing trough and in response to retrieved swords i nuked the 2nd. Its pretty flexible in use.

Well what can I say.. Control always has the chance of holding a sick hand with lots of counters, and all you can do is keeping the threats coming. Thats just what the deck does. Another good way to play around their counters is leveling Figure of Destiny that sticked from the start into a huge monster. It gets there alone from time to time.


About Vexing Shusher, i think thats a bad idea. The deck always fetches for 2 plains or 1 plains 1 plateau first, and you never want to fetch a mountain. Getting double red sucks for this deck, and i dont see huge benefits from him either, he does nothing on its own.

About the return of CB i wouldn't worry too much, as Vial and Figure absolutely kill their gameplan, and Tutorboard with Serenity seems pretty handsome too. I think im gonna test this a bit before the GP, with Misstep gone it convinces me.


While i wouldn't worry too much about the Control decks, theres lots of trouble coming from the Tempocorner. That 1mana 3/2 flyer that came with Innistrad is really disgusting, i mean what were they thinking? This guy and stifle+Snapcaster Mage seem like lots of trouble for this deck, and i hope their numbers wont explode. Seems like every deck got something out of ISD, just this one didn't.

And yeah, something like that would be nice, but i think we should be thankful enough for awesome REBs and Pyroblasts. Might come back to them now.

[Qweerios]

With the recent banning of MM, fast aggro and Vial decks have regained a bit of popularity. I have played the following list to good avail:


Creatures (23)
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Magus of the Moon

Spells (8)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts (7)
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Plateau
3 Plains
1 Mountain


My only complaint is the lack of a 2-drop in Serra Avenger's place. She makes a strong equipment carrier or beater in general, but doesn't disrupt in any way, doesn't fulfill the role of a 2drop, and is dissapointing without Vial. I don't like Squadron Hawk because they are slow and have no impact without equipments. Ideally I would like a 1W hatebear.

Also, what do you guys think of Flagstones of Trokair + Raze as a way of keeping your opponent off of their basic lands post-moon or simply to screw your opponent's landbase alongside Wasteland in games where we've landed a T1 Vial? Boom / Bust could also fulfill that role with an added Armageddon possibility.

[ThoSha]

Pretty solid list. I would still swap the Lavamancers for Figure of Destiny.
Lavamancer doesn't do much against control, while Figure is a must answer.

I can see your problem with Serra Avenger, and even tough i played her quite long I have to agree that she cant be the best fit in this slot. I've been very happy with my Hawks tough, as they provide card advantage and fly. At best they are equipped and fly for the win, at worst they chumpblock like champions. Also found myself often beating my opponent down with 4 hawks providing a decent flying clock. You should give him a try, unless a really good Hatebear with flying gets printed.


The Flagstone/Raze plan seems kinda shaky, you'd yet have to convince me that this does more then Apostle's Blessing. Dont get me wrong, i really like Landdestruction, but rather uncounterable and by the way. I could also see a problem in Flagstones turning red under a Moon when you cant get double white. Boom/Bust on the other hand can be a huge bomb if you get to the Armageddon part, but playing Armageddon right away might also be better.
I would like you to test this further and tell us about it, its something i never tried actually.

[Qweerios]

I tested the Boom / Bust + Flagstones plan and it doesn't work too well. As for my 2-drop slot, I had completely forgot about Phyrexian Revoker. I wanted a colorless hatebear and the mainboard lacked artifact hate so Revoker is my perfect fit for this slot. He also shuts down mana dorks/accel and Top which is very important.

Combo and dedicated control decks can be difficult to beat. What are our best sideboard options? Here is my current sideboard:


Sideboard (15)
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red


I use 4X REB because they:

-shut down Show and Tell and Hive Mind;
-replace StP against dedicated control decks;
-slow ANT down enough to set up a lock (ANT is a difficult MU that we must win G2-3 against);
-completely seal the Merfolk deal

The Enlightened Tutor package is very useful against Combo, Dredge, and Reanimator decks. Use them only in matchups where card advantage isn't as important as finding hate (i.e.: Not control).

I threw in Circle of Protection: Red because monored decks are unfavorable matchups that are almost impossible for this deck to hate on. The ONLY matches I have ever taken from Sligh and Burn have been with T1 Mother(not burned) into T2 SFM into Batterskull or by surviving 4 turns to swing with a jitte (very rare). Their clock is much faster than ours and once they sideboard cards like Pyrostatic Pillar, Smash to Smithereens, and Sulfuric Vortex, the match is pretty much over. Most of our disruption doesn't work agaisnt them either(Moon, Revoker, Creature Removal).

And finally, Manriki-Gusari is MVP against Stoneblade and Deadguy where their gameplan revolves around equipments.

I am not entirely convinced with Leonin Relic-Warder but I do need Artifact and Enchantment hate against Chalice @1, Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Humility, Counterbalance, and many more static artifacts/enchantments. Although Warder is inherently flawed, he is most fitting for a deck containing Vials, Equipments, and relies on hatebears as a primary strategy.

[ThoSha]

That sideboard is really, really good. Thanks for sharing this.
Speaking of Enlightened Tutor, dont you think Serenity deserves a slot too?
Affinity is an awful matchup, and this solves it very elegant.

I totally agree with the REBs, they now seem more needed than ever before.

I also tested Manriki Gusari as 1of in sb, but came to the conclusion that Stoneblade is so favorable that its not even needed. But recently i would have won some games with it way easier and I'll fit it in my Sideboard again. Tutor also enables this if we dont get to search with SFM.

Wheel of Sun and Moon also solves Reanimator, Dredge AND Loam decks smoothly, while Surgical Extraction just didn't so often. Sure take.

Relic Warder is very good in a list containing Mother of Runes and Apostle's Blessing. I think he is viable as 3-4 of, if you can fit him in.


Revoker main is a point that i never really agreed with, tough.
When hes good, hes awesome. But when there aint a target yet and he still is your only turn 2 play its kinda hard to believe in his usem especially if your on the play and dont even know what your opponent is playing. Postboard he is a bomb, not arguing about that at all.


About Monored decks, well its just hit or miss. If you get to lay your turn2 stoneforge, you probably won. Because when he kills it, he is one bolt short. When he doesnt, you lifelink his clock away with either BS or Jitte.
Of course there is a chance of him starting with Bolt, Double Bolt, Vortex, but thats just the nuts. Circle is a nice tech against progenitus too, so you can certainly stick with that choice, but i dont think its needed so bad.

Dont know about sligh tough. Who even plays that rather than zoo?


Edit:
Come to think of it..
Now that Goblins are on the uprise again, CoP:Red got some huge value again.
I think i would exactly use your Tutorboard and cut the Relic Warders for Serenity and either Seal of Cleansing or Aura of Silence.
What do you think is the better choice out of those two?

And Suppression Field also seems tempting somehow.. Got to give this some thoughts.

[Qweerios]

Revoker main is exactly like Magus main. They disrupt with such a wide array of application that they are worth having as a part of your main strategy. I play a lot of magic and I know a lot of decks, I rarely have nothing to name with a Revoker even if all I've seen from my opponent are lands and non-permanent spells. I would even argue that Revoker has more applications than Magus. Also, Revoker can be unfair at times when you know what your opponent is playing before the match begins. I know only a handful of Painterstone/Four Horsemen players and Revoker is a great T2 play when all they have are an Island out.

I don't think we need to dedicate much sideboard space to Affinity. I personally don't encounter it very often and usually all I have to do against it is to keep them off Cranial Plating, Master of Etherium, and two Tezzeret activations. Affinity plays 2 irrelevant spells for every relevant one. But sure, if you have a problem with affinity, pack a Serenity.

I tinkered with Suppression Field for a long time and came to the conclusion that the card puts more constraints on deckbuilding than it disrupts your opponent. Activating a vial, fetch, equipment, and mother now costs 2 more. It basically slows both sides down but doesn't actually shut anything down aside from things like Top where they need to have frequent activations.

Your analysis of red matchups is flawed. T2 Stoneforge doesn't mean you win, far from that. Fetching a Batterskull is not an option against a monored player unless you have an active Mother out, and fetching a Jitte will not swing until T4, which is:

a) too late
b) easy for your opponent to prevent
c) is even less likely post-board

Sligh is faster than Zoo and contains more burn spells than Zoo. Its manabase is basically invulnerable and it's a good predator in a meta where small utility creatures reign (Bob, SFM, creature light decks). Sligh also makes better use of Price of Progress, Fireblast, Pillars, and Vortex than Zoo. Sligh has different vulnerabilities than Zoo and usually cannot handle them as easely (i.e.: CoP: Red, Kor Firewalker).

Leonin Relic-Warder > Aura of Silence for this deck. Aura is often too slow and limited in application while Leonin can actually turn the game around by confiscating an artifact and providing a body. He can also be Vialed in. The fact that Aura of Silence can be tutored is arguably worthless because artifact/enchantment destruction is usually sided-in in control matchups where I would never bring in Tutors. Serenity is probably the only artifact/enchantment hate that I would couple with Tutor, and I would only do so only against Affinity and Enchantress decks because the effect of Serenity is well worth losing 2+ cards over in those matchups.

Also, Pyroblast > Red Elemental Blast. You can use them wether you have a target or not, which is relevant against Phantasmal Image for instance.

[ThoSha]

Good arguments for Revoker. It might make sense if you have the time to scout what other people are playing, but i can see that this is difficult in a GP compared to a small local.

My main problem is, Revoker doesn't fly. This deck really needs 4 slots dedicated to a flying threat to stand a chance against other aggro decks. Revoker wont hurt Merfolk like Serra Avenger would. Disruption and all is nice, but i think its more important to have a win condition in this slot, that really does something.
Serra and Squadron Hawk fulfil this purpose, Revoker just doesn't.
He is bonkers against Deed, Explosives, LED and Jace tough, thats why i always consider him in Sideboard.


Considering Sligh and Goblins, we really need something in SB to consistantly beat them g2/3. I get your points, and I was losing to this kind of decks the whole day, as they just always get to overrun me. My Tutorboard with CoP:Red wasnt enough, so i think 4 Kor Firewalker are the way to go. Taking lots of sideboard space, but they are so worth it.


I know what you mean with Relic Warder, i played him as 4-of in SB.
He was very good against Equipments, Shackles and Counterbalance.
Considered him mostly for shackles, because this can really steal you games.
But ever since I found Apostle's Blessing, im not in need of Relic Warder anymore. Manriki Gusari is all you need i guess. Replace him with 1 Oblivion Ring and you are still fine. Aura of Silence and Suppression field might really not fit in, you are right about that.
I thought of a singleton Torpor Orb tough, because Goblins is a really hard matchup, even with Kor Firewalker.


Pyroblast is good against Illusions, but sucks against decks playing Misdirection.
A 2-2 split might not be wrong, also plays around Meddling Mage.

[Einherjer]

The way I would play this deck is:

22 lands

4 Aether Vial

4 Mother of Runes
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Serra Avenger
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Pithing Needle

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Lighting Bolt

[Qweerios]

I don't have much trouble with goblins with 4 Bolts, 4 StP, 4 Mothers, 3 Grim, and the equipment package. Game 2 becomes really a walk in the park with Red CoP. Aggro decks in general aren't much of a problem, the matchup couldn't receive much improvement.

As for Revoker, I don't need to scout around the room prior to a tournament, I know what my opponent plays after the first few turns of play. When I don't know exactly what my opponent plays, I can still deduce a few cards that are highly likely to see play from the colors he plays. I rarely "waste" a Revoker or find myself regretting one. I suppose it's something that comes with experience.

Do we really *need* a flying creature? I really have no trouble connecting with my opponent when I need to with all the removal and protection this deck packs. If you really want flying creatures, I suggest a split between Phyrexian Revoker, Mirran Crusader, and Aven Mindcensor (4/2/2 or 3/3/2 or 2/4/2). I honestly don't see the point of non-disruptive creatures in a "hatebears" deck. The whole point of it is to stack disruption all the while pressuring. Squadron Hawk is extremely slow, doesn't disrupt, doesn't apply pressure, and is highly dependant on other cards. It doesn't even make the cut in Stoneblade (and they play Brainstorm + SFM), it is simply an underpowered card. If the hawks were 2/2s then, yeah, that would be another story. Furthermore, Figure of Destiny is a horrible card in a non-reactive deck. I absolutely love him with counterspells and tempo disruption because I have to keep mana open at the end of my turn for the latter no matter what. Dumping unused mana into a FoD EOT then becomes really cost-efficient. Playing a FoD proactively in a deck like ours is degenerative. You end up sinking tempo and mana into a non-disruptive and relatively small beater to almost no avail. It isn't true that FoD must be answered, he can safely be ignored until we begin investing in him, then he becomes an excellent target for removal because it then sets us further back than where we initially started.

Commiting to 4 Kor Firewalkers is a lot of sideboard space for an uncommon matchup. What bothers me about Firewalker is their limited application. Outside of Sligh and Burn, they have none. For that very reason, I have replaced Phyrexian Metamorph with Oblivion Ring because O-ring also answers any permanent + Emrakul while I already have Red CoP for Progenitus.

I have settled for the following list:


Creatures (23)
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Magus of the Moon

Spells (8)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts (7)
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Plateau
3 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Leonin Relic-Warder

[ThoSha]

That all makes a lot of sense.
In the Misstep Meta my list was dominating as hell, but right now there are some rough matchups unwinding. Guess I'll skip Figure too and undust my Lavamancers.

Your list looks pretty solid.
Dont know yet if its acceptable to cut a Mirran Crusader, as its the 2nd best card in the deck IMO. I also want to keep 2 Apostle's Blessing, as they really make a difference in mid/lategame. I guess I'll give the Revokers a shot, but leave the Mindcensors out for now. Flying will really be missing, but I need to test everything out before the GP.


Do you play MWS?
Right after the Misstep Ban Announcement, the whole meta was FLOODED with Goblins and strange combo decks, I was like wtf. 80% playing bad to average goblin lists and still win against me, no matter how good I draw.
Social Influence also does what it does when everyone says: Oh kids, you can play Goblins again!
This is gonna be a bigger threat, so i wouldn't call this matchup uncommon anymore.
And I also dont see how this is a walk in the park for a second.
Imagine: Mountain, Lackey, go. You wont always start with stp/bolt, so you put down your Mother/Grim/Vial and get overrun by whatever they cheat into play after Weirding/Gempalm/Bolt your creature and connect with Lackey.
Without 4 Kor Firewalkers I dont see much chance to win this.
Even CoP:Red looks like a bad joke after SGC and Kiki Jiki overrun you with 5000 tokens. Might just be my bad luck, but shit like that happens.

[Octopusman]

That all makes a lot of sense.
In the Misstep Meta my list was dominating as hell, but right now there are some rough matchups unwinding. Guess I'll skip Figure too and undust my Lavamancers.

Your list looks pretty solid.
Dont know yet if its acceptable to cut a Mirran Crusader, as its the 2nd best card in the deck IMO. I also want to keep 2 Apostle's Blessing, as they really make a difference in mid/lategame. I guess I'll give the Revokers a shot, but leave the Mindcensors out for now. Flying will really be missing, but I need to test everything out before the GP.


Do you play MWS?
Right after the Misstep Ban Announcement, the whole meta was FLOODED with Goblins and strange combo decks, I was like wtf. 80% playing bad to average goblin lists and still win against me, no matter how good I draw.
Social Influence also does what it does when everyone says: Oh kids, you can play Goblins again!
This is gonna be a bigger threat, so i wouldn't call this matchup uncommon anymore.
And I also dont see how this is a walk in the park for a second.
Imagine: Mountain, Lackey, go. You wont always start with stp/bolt, so you put down your Mother/Grim/Vial and get overrun by whatever they cheat into play after Weirding/Gempalm/Bolt your creature and connect with Lackey.
Without 4 Kor Firewalkers I dont see much chance to win this.
Even CoP:Red looks like a bad joke after SGC and Kiki Jiki overrun you with 5000 tokens. Might just be my bad luck, but shit like that happens.

Tivadar's Crusade?

[ThoSha]

LOL awesome secret tech!

It just wouldnt work in reality.. Hi Ringleader, pack is back.

[Qweerios]

Think about that for a second: What are the odds of your opponent starting with a T1 Lackey while you do not have a T1 Bolt, StP, Mother, or Grim?

[ThoSha]

What i ment to say by that was that a Hand without Bolt/stp and just with Mother or Grim is not enough sometimes, and its far from autowin.

[Octopusman]

Let's get some more activity.

I'm not going to lie, I love Mindcensor. I'm just wondering when we're going to cast it? The deck is kind of a tapout deck. I'm not sure when we'd have mana open. If we're trying to catch them with a mindcensor, I'm wondering if we'd be better served just dropping another creature/lock piece main phase.

I'm looking at Grand Abolisher. With Vial, it makes resolving and protecting a turn 3 magus of the moon on tapout that much more likely. I'd much rather make this play than stoneforge mystic off of vial and try to resolve a magus through counters or floating white so they can swords to plowshares.
Maybe he has a place in the sideboard but Queerios' SB is looking pretty solid.

Revoker is too good and I'm not sure that Abolisher as only a 2 of is worth it if we swapped for mindcensor.

Thoughts?

[ThoSha]

My current thoughts revolve around getting 4 Ethersworn Cannonists back in the main, as the meta is shifting in the aggro/combo direction now.
It doesn't bother us to play 1 spell on our turn and 1 on the enemy's turn, and we do have a lot of interactions within our creatures.
Think about how she is a main out to Storm Combo and Goblins for instance.

Back to the hatebears concept. :)

And yeah, Qweerios sideboard is awesome. If I get too greedy, i'll even reduce Revoker to a 1of in Tutorboard. Never needed more than 1 anyway.

And Mindcensor is not that bad.. I mean I would never play more than 2, but those 2 can really be backbreaking.
For Magus protection i guess Mother of Runes and Apostle's Blessing should be all we need. I dont see spending more slots on creatures that aren't gamebreaking. :/

[Qweerios]

The thing about Ethersworn Canonist is that there are no decks out there that need to cast 2 spells per turn. Everyone is pretty much happy with 1 a turn exept combo. It is minimal disruption against anything non-combo and it affects us negatively as much as it affects them, so why should we be the ones playing it? It's a sideboard card, always been.

[ThoSha]

Same to revoker.
The difference is, Revoker needs a target that you know its worth,
and Canonist always does the same sneaky move.

It fits in our maindeck better than Revoker in my opinion, because this deck builds up rather slow and comes to its fullest in the midgame. Canonist provides that scheme on both sides and screws decks like TES, Combo Elves, Tide and Goblins who need to cast multiple spells a turn. 1 Goblin each turn seems ultra fair to me.

And i really cant see any disadvantage from it to ourselves.
Lavamancer will shoot no matter what, Stoneforge still cheats Batterskull into play, vial ignores that fact anyway and removal will be cast in their turn anyway.

[Qweerios]

Revoker is nowhere near the same as Ethersworn Canonist. The chances of a Revoker having absolutely no value in a matchup is next to none. Packing Revoker is a bit like packing Qasali Pridemage, their application is widespread and impactful. Ethersworn's disruption though, is either apropriate to the matchup (combo) or irrelevant for the most part (everything else). Goblins don't cast multiple goblins per turn, they Vial and Lackey them in. Canonist will hurt you more than it hurts them. I would argue that you would get more out of maindeck Pyroblasts than Canonists in any given meta.

Canonist + Abolisher however, does sound like a reasonable lock. They are both useful to some degree individually and their ability stacks together.

[ThoSha]

Thats soo not true.
Goblins acts like an aggro combo deck.. they put down Warchief, vial in Matron/Ringleader, and get the 1mana broken hasty piledrivers and cheaper friends.
At this point we will lose.

I never lost a game against goblins online since I packed Canonist again.
She does screw them that much, because without the broken combo engine, we are the better deck with better creatures.

Even if you dont get enough disruption out of her in another aggro mirror like Merfolk, she is still a 2/2 bear that carries equip. But right now the meta is going crazy about above listed decks, so i hardly doubt her uselessness in a big tournament.


Canonist and Abolisher seems like a solid plan, but the deck is really tight, dont you think? I wouldn't know what to cut to fit them both.

[ThoSha]

After the misstep ban it is actually quite hard to win tournaments with this deck anymore.
To give it the last honor, i want to write down a last tournament report.

Final List:
//22 Lands
3 Plateau
4 Marsh Flats
1 Ancient Den
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

//24 Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Aven Mindcensor
//7 Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawas Jitte

//7 Instants
3 Apostle's Blessing
4 Swords to Plowshares


SB:

1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Serenity
4 Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt

Grand Prix Trial Vienna:

6 Rounds in swiss

Round 1: Vs Monogreen Infect
Game1: Not much to say, i tried to win over the batterskull plan but got blown out by
a Viper with 4 pumpspells.
Game 2: I boarded in Tutors and Canonist. I start with Mother of Runes, he passes his first turn.
I tutor for Ethersworn Canonist and win because he couldnt stuck enough Pumpspells in time, so Canonist and Mirran take it home.
Game 3: Pretty much the same as game 2, but 1 turn before canonist he pumps Glistener Elf with 2 Invigorates and a Mutagenic Growth, in response i sword him.
Pretty much gg after that. 2-1

Round 2: Snapcaster Bant
Game1: I start with Vial and pass. He goes for Eot brainstorm.
I go for port, he brainstorms with the tapped mana and passes. Vial ticks up for Stoneforge finding Batterskull, Mirran and Aven Mindcensor.
He gets rid of Mirran with swords but the next time he tries to sword via Snapcaster i have the blessing for Batterskull.
Game2: Brought some blasts in, some tutors and Crypt. He lays a Tundra and passes. I start with mother, he swords her. He lays tropical and passes.
I have the port to cut off a turn. Next turn clique comes down targeting himself. I waste something, play Vial, and hardcast a Serra Avenger.
He has Spell Snare. Clique does some beating until i find the red elemental blast. I was on 2 on that point.
I go hardcore bondage with SFM, Batterskull, Mirran Crusader and Aven Mindcensor after that, while he has Tarmogoyf and some Snapcasters on his board in the meantime.
Stifle happened twice, so the batterskull engine was delayed a bit.
Since he sworded my sfm i had to reach 5 mana for hardcasting BS, so i did.
I draw a 2nd SFM, search for Sword of Fire and Ice and equip Mirran with BS and Sword. The rest was jellybeans. 2-0

Round 3: Vs Reanimator
Game1: This was a quick victory, since my opponent mulled down to 5 and kept a nonlander hand. I go for Mother, Stoneforge, Mirran and just goldfish.
He discards and reveals me a Thoughtseize one turn before.
No boarding so far.
Game2: Well, theres not much to say except that he now shows me hes on Reanimator and i have no outs.
Game3:
I boarded in a shitload of cards, like 11 or something.
He has the uber nuts Hand, while i keep a crappy 5 with just stp, sfm, 2 lands and a port. He gives me turn 2 gitaxias and forces my StP.
I discard. Jin swings in and got Elesh Norn backup. I topdeck blast and target Jin but he has the 2nd Force. This is where the downfall begins. 0-2

Round4: Vs Dredge
Game1: I win the dice and keep a hand with Mother, Blessing, Grim, 3 Lands and a Stp. He starts with tireless tribe.
He dredges really bad the first few turns and does some beating with Ichorid and Narcomoeba.
I see a lone bridge and decide to shoot my own lavamancer down next turn after he swung in with ichorid and narcomoeba while blocking ichorid.
After the bridge got removed he discarded 2 more bridges via Tireless Tribe. Cabal Therapy led into a few zombie tokens and took the game.
Game2: I boarded in again, like... 8 cards. I dont see hate on my starting hand but decide to keep with 2 Grim Lavamancer, StP, Jitte and 3 Lands.
Not quite bad i thought, even without massive hate.
He just dredges like a king into turn 3 iona on white and fucks up my day. 0-2

Round5: Vs Enchantress
Game1: He has the confinement turn 8 or something while he is on 5 life or something and i have no outs.
Game2: Boarded in 2 Tutors, Serenity(lulz), Oblivion Ring, Ethersworn Canonist and a Seal of Cleasing. Not too shaby i thought.
He starts with Forest go. I start with Mother of Runes. He goes for utopia sprawl, plains and passes.
I have Revoker and put it on Sterling Grove. He doesnt like that and has 2 removals for it next turn. I play the 2nd Revoker, hitting Sterling Grove again.
He plays like 2 more sprawls and an Enchantress. Still not seeing any hate but whatever, i go in with the revoker and put a Mirran+Grim on the board.
He goes for Sigil of the Empty Throne into 2 tokens. I draw Serra Avenger and play her.
He creates like 3 more tokens on his turn and starts to go in. Serra blocks one and Grim takes it out, Mother protects Serra.
Next turn he goes for the Confinement and some more sprawls, creates another 4 tokens. Now its my turn.. drawstep... SERENITY!! right in time!! Not.
I pass and the tokens go wild. 0-2

Round 6: Bye
Well i guess my opponent was too tired already.


3-3 Record so far.
After the normal tournament 2 people decided to drop in favor of potential amsterdam players.
I was just 1 place short to make the cut, so another really friendly player decided to drop for me too.
So with this really awful result i manage to Top8. 3 Byes for Amsterdam were waiting for the resulting 1st and 2nd place out of the Top8 so i still had some chance.

Top4: Vs Reanimator
It was the same dude i played before who goldfished me twice.
Nice, time for revenge!

Game1: I keep a hand that could never touch reanimator at all but was nice against any aggro deck.
I was shaking and really thought i would scoop game 1 after the 2nd turn.
But while shuffling i remember someone telling me he was only playing 16 lands and i had some hope that he would be screwed via mana denial.

He draws his 7, shakes his head and takes a mulligan. Hm not bad, so if my matchup sucks i can still cut pretty good.
So I cut again, he draws 6 and is still not satisfied.
Mulligan to 5 with a single land wasnt enough it seems. I just went over the Stoneforge/Skull plan and won this, while keeping him of his 2nd land via Wasteland.

Game2: Boarded 11 cards again and hoped to trust the maths this time.
So i draw an ok'ish hand with 1 Surgical, 1 Metamorph, 1 stp, 2 lands, 1 port and Aven Mindcensor. Seems fair enough.
He mulls to 6 again. He starts with Underground Sea, go. I play fetch, go. Eot Entomb on Iona. On his turn he played a 2nd Underground Sea and Animate Dead on Iona.
Surgical Extraction takes Iona in response and i start to feel better after that nice timewalk. On my turn i play port and screw him. He ponders and passes.
I land a Mountain, play Magus of the Moon and its gg after 4 timewalks.

Final: Vs Reanimator
Another one.. Im so sick of this matchup at this point, but whatever. There was Maverick too, i didnt seem to have that much luck to get paired with it.
Game1: Was it turn 2 iona? Or turn 2 gitaxias? Well i didnt win this of course, no matter what it was.
Game2: Sided my 11 cards again and gave it a shot.
I got a somewhat nice hand with Surgical, SFM, 2 lands, blast, vial and Aven Mindcensor.
So i went plains, vial go. He plays a swamp, go. I went for plateau, go, he entombs EoT gin gitaxias.
So on his turn he wants to exhume him and in response i extract. He forces. I blast his force.
I took like 3 Gin out of his deck, quite impressive play. Next turn he doesnt do anything and I vial in Serra Avenger.
Serra starts the beating and vial ticked up to 3. On his turn he wants to Entomb again, in response i stick Mindcensor.
He puts a fetch into his grave and scoops shortly after.

Game3: I start with Oblivion Ring and Tutor in hand. He starts with Swamp. I play a land, go. He just entombs eot Inkwell leviathan.
On his turn exhume on Inkwell. Nice for him. I tutor for Metamorph and terribly missdraw in my drawstep. I draw the metamorph and
somehow i flipped the card below which was a Magus and almost got disqualified. The judge was really nice tough and just let me draw
my metamorph and shuffle my library after, leaving me with a warning. I am one mana short to play it tough, so i pass again.
He swings in for 7 and Thoughtseizes my metamorph. Well he was my only out, so this game was over already. I played a Mirran Crusader
on my turn and passed. He thoughtseizes my Oblivion Ring too and swings in again. I scoop.

So no byes for Amsterdam for me, but it was great to come so far in this combo influenced meta to begin with, and i got lucky not to face
High Tide or Ant, which were also great in numbers. The Reanimator matchup really pissed me off, being so close and then fail to win
just because my deck cant take it even with 11 Sideboard cards. Its not the fault of the deck tough, it just died with mental misstep ban.
Might dig this up later, when the combo meta ceases to exist at some points, but right now its not the right time to play Moonblade.

Well it was a fun time, i thank everyone who discussed with me on this deck making it better and better, it was really fun to play
and flew over Aggro and Control like a tidal wave in the Misstep Meta. Nice times. I'm gonna miss to 10-0 on mws each day.

R.I.P. Moonblade