How healthy is the format?

[OurSerratedDust]

Take a look at this.
SCG Boston Top 16 (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-08-21&end_date=2011-08-21&event_ID=20&city=Boston)

Looking at the results of the event, we have:

6 Natural Order RUG
7 U/w/x "Stoneblade"
1 Reanimator
1 Zoo
1 Zoo/Loam (?)

More importantly, we also have:

14 out of 16 are blue decks with counterspells.
15 out of 16 ran some number of Mental Mistep.
13 out of 16 ran Force of Will.

I feel like legacy isn't particularly fun right now. I loved the pre-MM format where you could play whatever you wanted and have a shot with it. Top 8's for events would vary wildly from week to week.

To quote mrfridays on twitter, "According to the Top 16 of #SCGBOS, this Legacy format is about as healthy as a homeless man with open sores coughing up blood in your face."

What do you guys think about all this? How do you feel about the state of the format?

[Jonathan Alexander]

I noticed this as well earlier today and I thought about posting this as well. As I see it, the Legacy metagame is becoming a real metagame for the first time since I started playing again two years ago and from what I have read about the older days, it seems Legacy was almost always very open. I mean, take a look at the DTB forum, there's eight different decks that are considered to be the most important ones. In other formats there are hardly that many decks at all.
Before, whenever something was dominant, there was only one deck that was dominant (Flash, Survival). Now there are two decks emerging as being very strong. Personally, I like how the format changed since Mental Misstep, but I also think that more strong decks will be found within the next few months. The format has become much more serious and the games are overall more challenging.

What's also very interesting is how close most of the lists actually are, decks seem to be much more tuned these days - or people are just lazy and copy decklists that have been successful.

And by the way, the deck that's labelled Bant Stoneblade is a typical Bant Aggro list. Still, only six distinct archetypes in a Top 16 is very few. Usually we have this much in Top 8 already. However, I would still not go to a Legacy tournament with a deck that's designed to beat a certain set of decks. It's still very important to have a strong proactive gameplan if you want to win in Legacy. Jace, Stoneforge Mystic and Natural Order just seem to be the strongest cards right now, but I'm kinda surprised that there's only one Knight Of The Reliquary deck as these have actually been quite good in my testing as well.
Maybe this goes along with another trend I noticed lately: Few decks are running the full set of Wastelands anymore. I think this is reasonable. Manabases have become much stronger and more solid recently. People aren't running four colour manabases with 20 lands and no manafixing anymore. If you can't make sure to hit multiple Wastelands in a row, I don't recommend playing them at all right now as they hardly win games just on their own anymore.

[JamieW89]

It'll be healthy again when they ban misstep, but for now I can't really stand Legacy.

[Admiral_Arzar]

It'll be healthy again when they ban misstep, but for now I can't really stand Legacy.

Amen to this. Pre-Misstep Legacy was arguably the most diverse format in the history of MTG, and it was a lot of fun. Now it's a couple different blue decks with the same basic shell, zoo, and the occasional token combo deck built into the same blue shell. Compared to pre-misstep, where it was a number of different blue decks, 10+ different random combo and rogue decks, and all sorts of different aggro and midrange lists.

Misstep has pushed a huge number of decks back into the shadows - some haven't outright died, but are now only viable for extremely skilled players (see TES). The hardest hit decks include Goblins, Enchantress, Tempo Thresh, Counter-top (although that was pretty much dead anyway), Junk, Eva Green, Storm combo, High Tide, etc. There are plenty more. Of course, somebody will come out and say, "No n00b those decks are still viable you just suck," and maybe they are - but if they are, they aren't being played and/or aren't winning.

Blue was already the best color in Legacy pre-Misstep, but you could still compete with other decks. Now, you either play one of the blue DTBs, or you play a deck specifically designed to shit on blue (Zoo, Manaless Dredge, Hive Mind). Otherwise, you lose - simple as that.

[Rune]

Mental Misstep has fully lived up to all my expectations. Oh, how sweet the irony of that card's name is.

[Nidd]

@ all of you "oh my god, we have a defined metagame"-people: That's how a well-defined format looks like. Deal with it.
You couldn't play each and every deck before if you wanted to win and this didn't change.
If this means that you can't play your favorite petdeck/-card anymore, I feel you - I'd really like to be able to play Gifts again, but there seems to be no format where it's viable except Vintage (and I'm not able to shell out ~8k for P9, but that's a different topic).

Now all we have to do is man up and beat NO RUG + SFM-based Control.

[(nameless one)]

I do agree with most of the post, Legacy was at its best post-Survival ban/pre-Mental Misstep era.

Its funny how everyone was saying that Mental Misstep would help non-blue decks deal against combo but in reality, it only helped blue decks.

It feels like Legacy is becoming Standard in a sense that the top competitive decks have decreased in numbers and only those decks become viable.

Back in the mentioned era above, every week was a different top8. Yes, sideboarding was harder but the format itself was more amusing.

I guess the only good thing about the current meta is that all the staples you need will be the same. I mean Both NO RUG and Stoneblade decks share almost half of its cardbase. Though the format has had its moment of "go blue or go home", that scenario hasn't been cemented until now.

[daPaule]

Anyhow this seems to be an american problem. Everyone likes to join the bus instead of doing something against it ;)

For reference: German Legacy "Nationals" ~180 Players.
Top8: Maverick 2x, Hivemind, DDFT, Team America/Eva Green not sure what to call it Tempo thing ;), Sneak Show, UBG "Landstill", RUG without NO.

So out of 8:
2times Stoneforge,
3 times Misstep, one in side
5 times counterspells

Won by Maverick.

[Justin]

The SCG results show that if your Legacy deck is not blue or if it is not running either Stoneforge Mystic or Natural Order, you are doing it wrong.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Anyhow this seems to be an american problem. Everyone likes to join the bus instead of doing something against it ;)

For reference: German Legacy "Nationals" ~180 Players.
Top8: Maverick 2x, Hivemind, DDFT, Team America/Eva Green not sure what to call it Tempo thing ;), Sneak Show, UBG "Landstill", RUG without NO.

So out of 8:
2times Stoneforge,
3 times Misstep, one in side
5 times counterspells

Won by Maverick.

The European metagame adjusts to shifts more slowly than the American. NO RUG and Esper Stoneblade basically take a shit on every deck in that top eight (except Stoneblade vs. Maverick and maybe RUG vs. Storm).

[DrJones]

This is a twitter from me made 20 June

@mtgaaron Thank you for fixing standard, but I fear you have banned all nonblue decks from Legacy for three months. :(
20 Jun

The problem card is still Force of Will, because it's a timewalk that you can't do anything to avoid, except not playing spells (hello, dredge at DTB). Printing MM which is Force of Will v2.0 just made the issue with "Free counter-based tempo boosts" even more apparent, by giving an huge push to the already best strategy in the format.

It's no strange that the decks (ab)using free countermagic are tempo based strategies and combo decks. FoW, Daze and other free countermagic are combo/tempo's best friends because they accelerate the turn you can go off as it provides protection without having to leave mana open. In the case of combo decks also act as master bullets that kill the really few cards in the opponent's deck that could stop them. Games are won or lost not depending on the die roll, but on how many free countermagic you happen to draw.

8 free counterspells used aggresively provide the same kind of tempo acceleration than 4 moxes and 4 lotus petal, but at the expense of the opponent's turns. Plus it gives the illusion of a longer game, so it evades DCI's policy of banning decks that reliably kill in two turns.
The problem is not in that they are counterspells, but in that they are free. Normal counterspells have a tempo cost that is being side-stepped here, allowing them to be used aggresively by tempo and combo decks. Note how these decks are far more succesful than control decks playing the same cards, that's because they are playing the card "right".

The meta can't adapt because there's barely NOTHING that meddles with the gameplan of these blue decks, except playing blue yourself, or not casting spells. Because there are no "shield-down" moments, you can't take down the shield with spells designed with that purpose, as they get countered themselves, totally missing the point. The best answer is Aether Vial, and note how prevalent it is in that Top 16.

Thereby, I twitted the following:

@TomLaPilleMagic @maro254 Could you design a green "blue-hoser" that doesn't suck? Take a look at blue "blue-hosers" for inspiration.

Here is TomLaPille's reply:

TomLaPilleMagic Tom LaPille
I suggest Great Sable Stag or Thrun, the Last Troll

Does this make sense? putting Great Sable Stag in your deck to hose blue decks is like putting Lhurgoyf in your deck to hose Graveyard-based strategies. Like putting White Knight in your deck to fight Necropotence decks. It fights the wrong battle.

So I replied:

@TomLaPilleMagic They don't work, hosers should meddle with the opponent's gameplan. Thrun and GSS are just efficient lategame creatures.

And he replied me again:

I know a few Mistbind Cliques that would beg to differ with you about Great Sable Stag.

Well, I appreciate a lot that he took the time to reply, but it looks like he gave an answer for an entirely different problem, so I don't know what else to do except waiting for september's banning.

[Michael Keller]

Legacy is fine.

People were bitching and complaining when Aether Vial was blowing out people in Aggro decks like Merfolk and Goblins. Now that Misstep is here, people are complaining it is warping the format. It isn't 'warping' anything, folks; it's a product of a lack of creativity. There is a huge influx of new players running brews they see listed on Star City's website or by word of mouth from friends, and those folks just pick those decks up and run with them. Legacy is at an all-time low as it pertains to its 'creative' aspect, which is why you see the same decks like NO Rug, Hive Mind, etc. running the gauntlet week in and week out. I still feel the format is fine, though. There are lots of different archetypes winning each week, which is what makes the format great.

To be honest though, I had more fun when Mystical Tutor and Survival were legal.

[Gui]

Let's face it, SCG players don't innovate much, they are always playing the current "supposed DTB" and if you take SCG results into account without looking for number of wins against the field, you'll ban a card per year as if they were responsible for the non-variance of SCG players.

[Piceli89]

Let's face it, SCG players don't innovate much, they are always playing the current "supposed DTB" and if you take SCG results into account without looking for number of wins against the field, you'll ban a card per year as if they were responsible for the non-variance of SCG players.

This.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Legacy is fine.

People were bitching and complaining when Aether Vial was blowing out people in Aggro decks like Merfolk and Goblins. Now that Misstep is here, people are complaining it is warping the format. It isn't 'warping' anything, folks; it's a product of a lack of creativity. There is a huge influx of new players running brews they see listed on Star City's website or by word of mouth from friends, and those folks just pick those decks up and run with them. Legacy is at an all-time low as it pertains to its 'creative' aspect, which is why you see the same decks like NO Rug, Hive Mind, etc. running the gauntlet week in and week out. I still feel the format is fine, though. There are lots of different archetypes winning each week, which is what makes the format great.

To be honest though, I had more fun when Mystical Tutor and Survival were legal.

I had a ton of fun when Mystical Tutor was legal, but I'm a storm player at heart so take that with a grain of salt. There's plenty of people playing other things (I've been having a ton of fun with the NO/Protean Hulk deck myself) but if you're going to a big tournament and want to win, you pick up a blue deck. Playing anything else is just handicapping yourself at this point, as blue has everything it needs to beat both aggro and combo.

EDIT: I would love to see more innovation in the format. Of course SCG isn't well known for that, but even in my local meta it gets annoying having to play against the same blue decks over and over again.

[OurSerratedDust]

Regardless of creativity, decks these days literally need to play blue to be competitive. If any of you know of some secret non-blue deck that has a strong matchup against NO RUG and Stoneblade, please enlighten the rest of us.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Regardless of creativity, decks these days literally need to play blue to be competitive. If any of you know of some secret non-blue deck that has a strong matchup against NO RUG and Stoneblade, please enlighten the rest of us.

The Punishing Fires/Burning Wish aggro loam build I played a while ago was solid against both, but I wouldn't call it a "strong" matchup - somewhat favored perhaps. You automatically roll to any combo deck though.

[Zunam]

Why are the results of SCG Richmond ignored completely?

There were 3 non-blue decks in the top 8 (one of them did have Mental Misstep) and some more in the top 16.
Pittsburgh was similar with even 4 decks out of the top 8 being non-blue.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying that everything is fine but I am just not buying the argument if it's presented that way.

By looking at the results of the latest three SCGs I fail to see any kind of indication that something is wrong (which doesn't mean that there isn't anything wrong but the argument is just very very weak)

[Admiral_Arzar]

Why are the results of SCG Richmond ignored completely?

There were 3 non-blue decks in the top 8 (one of them did have Mental Misstep) and some more in the top 16.
Pittsburgh was similar with even 4 decks out of the top 8 being non-blue.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying that everything is fine but I am just not buying the argument if it's presented that way.

By looking at the results of the latest three SCGs I fail to see any kind of indication that something is wrong (which doesn't mean that there isn't anything wrong but the argument is just very very weak)

"3 non-blue decks" being used as an argument that the format is fine is pretty bad. That's still a strong majority of blue.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Regardless of creativity, decks these days literally need to play blue to be competitive. If any of you know of some secret non-blue deck that has a strong matchup against NO RUG and Stoneblade, please enlighten the rest of us.

If anything, you could play Zoo or GWr Maverick (aka Big Zoo). BUt it's hard for non-blue decks to match the consistency you get from Brainstorm and the power you get from Vendilion Clique and/or Jace. Natural Order is also much stronger in blue shells than in non-blue (Zoo for example) where you can't do much about drawing Progenitus.
I agree that there's almost no incentive to not play blue, but in my opinion that's not a problem. I like the current state of Legacy.

[Shawn]

Legacy is fine.

This. People will adjust.

I don't see Misstep going anywhere, as I heard Zac Hill say at GP:KC MM was made specifically to slow the format of Legacy down, and it seems to be doing just that.

[tsabo_tavoc]

6 NO RUG, 6 Stone UW, 2 Zoo are quite surprising, considering the status of these decks one month ago. However, I bet none of the mentioned archetypes will have over 4 T16 representations in the next SCG Open. I can also go on and say in another month, people will find themselves amusing, fearing the dominance of NO RUG or Stoneblade. Furthermore, Innistrad is coming and another shake-up is expected.

That said, the dominance of Mental Missteps is unquestionable. We knew this was coming when NPH was spoiled. This card has been banned in Modern, which makes it clear that WotC is aware of its performance in Legacy. I don't want see it banned though, because, clearly, everyone knows the most busted card in Legacy is BRAINSTORM!

Swamp is the loser in the most recent Top16. Why? Discard gets hit hard by Misstep, AND Brainstorm. Brainstorm brings RIDICULOUS consistency to blue decks, and blue combo decks. Ban Brianstorm, and then we can talk about colour balance in Legacy.

[Zunam]

"3 non-blue decks" being used as an argument that the format is fine is pretty bad. That's still a strong majority of blue.

It's still almost half of the top 8 and in the second case it is actually half of the top. What would be the correct number of non-blue decks in a top 8 to have a healthy format? Is it 6 is it 7 and who is defining that?

But yes you are right: Having just 3 non-blue decks in one top 8 is a bad argument but the same is true if just a single top 8 is presented as an argument for a non-healthy format.

But that was not my point. My point is: It is wrong to base a opinion on just a single top 8 and use it as an argument.

I for myself wouldn't be able to come to a conclusion. Not even if I would include the two other top 8ths that I mentioned.

[Jonathan Alexander]

There's no way they should ban Brainstorm. Legacy is fun because the decks are consistent and not every deck is like The Gate or Dragon Stompy and loses to itself three out of four games. Magic should be about skill and not about luck, and with Brainstorm, it's much more likely that games actually are decided by skill. Also, banning Brainstorm would most likely help combo decks more than anything else as these are the decks that have the biggest problems against blue based decks and often only need their cantrips to find certain pieces of their combos and not to generate virtual cardadvantage. Not having Brainstorm at least makes them weaker against discard though.

[GGoober]

Here is TomLaPille's reply:

TomLaPilleMagic Tom LaPille
I suggest Great Sable Stag or Thrun, the Last Troll

Does this make sense? putting Great Sable Stag in your deck to hose blue decks is like putting Lhurgoyf in your deck to hose Graveyard-based strategies. Like putting White Knight in your deck to fight Necropotence decks. It fights the wrong battle.

So I replied:

@TomLaPilleMagic They don't work, hosers should meddle with the opponent's gameplan. Thrun and GSS are just efficient lategame creatures.

And he replied me again:

I know a few Mistbind Cliques that would beg to differ with you about Great Sable Stag.




WOW!!

Does he even have any idea of the format or is he trolling you?

+10 to Misstep being the most format warping card since Goyf/Counterbalance/Pridemage/Hierarch/Progenitus. Sorry, Misstep warped the format much more than the cards mentioned.

Think about it this way, if MM is out, Goblins/combos are going to be viable again, AND SFM/NORUG decks won't be overly dominant because they won't have 8 free counters to protect their backup plan.

I love blue, I love MM, but I love Legacy more than blue/MM and all I can say, it is my opinion that Legacy with MM banned is a much healthier and diverse format than one with MM.

Brainstorm has never warped the format. It just gave blue a strong tool than the other color pie. Aside from Jace, blue has really not received any form of power inflation while most aggro decks have seen tremendous contributions to power creep. WotC has done a fine job in trying to push aggro against the dominant color that is blue, that is until they printed MM.

[tsabo_tavoc]

There's no way they should ban Brainstorm. Legacy is fun because the decks are consistent and not every deck is like The Gate or Dragon Stompy and loses to itself three out of four games. Magic should be about skill and not about luck, and with Brainstorm, it's much more likely that games actually are decided by skill. Also, banning Brainstorm would most likely help combo decks more than anything else as these are the decks that have the biggest problems against blue based decks and often only need their cantrips to find certain pieces of their combos and not to generate virtual cardadvantage. Not having Brainstorm at least makes them weaker against discard though.

I appreciate your point about Legacy being a format that values skill. Ponder and Preordain are decent cards that make decks consistent, and FAIR in the sense Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library are fair. However, Brainstorm is not a fair card, as it brings too much consistency: For one card and one mana, at instant speed, one gets three fresh cards from the top of your library, three versus one! Brainstorm is not only the core of any serious combo deck, but the MVP of most of them (Show and Tell, Reanimator, and Tendrils). Brainstorm not only digs cards for the combo decks, it works just as the way it is exploited by other blue decks. Banning Brainstorm and leaving Mental Missteps in will not do anything favouring combo decks.

Brainstorm supersedes the fairness of Legacy, and as Ponder and Preordain are available, it is a safe ban now. Blue decks will still be fairly consistent without Brainstorm. Blue players will whine (except those playing Islandwalkers) and learn to adapt to a fair format.

[KobeBryan]

I always advocated the banning of brainstorm. The banning would not kill blue where it would be unplayable. It would only nerf blue just a bit to allow other decks to catch up to its power.

But i was called a troll after making that suggestion.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I always advocated the banning of brainstorm. The banning would not kill blue where it would be unplayable. It would only nerf blue just a bit to allow other decks to catch up to its power.

But i was called a troll after making that suggestion.

People shouted "Ban Coutertop!", people creamed "Ban High Tide!", people yelled "Ban Show and Tell!", and now people are still amazed by the blue dominance with their hammer in the air, tempted to call a card that is not really blue.

We are the trolls who mention Brainstorm all the time.

[Pippin]

And here comes dr. Jones from the closet, right on time. Every few months same little story about how FoW is a free timewalk, it never gets old :laugh:

This is when people are mostly cutting few copies of FoW, or playing something like NoFoW Bant and winning things...

Anyway the real problem here is Mental Misstep like already stated which gives too much tempo, and answers too many cards (Nacatl's, etc) without having the FoW drawback. It's easier to pay 2 life when one starts at 20 life than one paying 1 life and a blue card...

Personally I don't know what Wizards guys were smoking when they came up with Mental Misstep in card design... especially since it's not a "FoW substitute for Modern".

[menace13]

Stop crying because Legacy finally has a defined metagame, it's no longer 40decks.format.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Stop crying because Legacy finally has a defined metagame, it's no longer 40decks.format.

Yes. Honestly, what is the problem with a blue dominance, when there are still around ten strong decks you can tune? Sure, NO RUG and Stoneblade stand above the other decks, but having two decks on top is perfectly fine in my eyes.
You should read Chapin's article from monday regarding a healthy metagame.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Stop crying because Legacy finally has a defined metagame, it's no longer 40decks.format.

Some of us - such as myself - find diversity awesome. Others obviously prefer one color over all the others. This lesson can be applied to real life as well as magic.

[Fry]

I personally don't think that there is anything wrong with a defined metagame... However with that being said I do believe that there is a problem when the metagame uses blue(8 free counters) in umpteen top 16 decks.

[CorpT]

WOW!!

Does he even have any idea of the format or is he trolling you?

Can someone do something about him? It is getting embarrassing how bad at magic he is.

Remember, he is the person who tested Reanimator in the MODO practice room and decided to ban Mystical Tutor and who thought NPH would fix Standard.

[KobeBryan]

Can someone do something about him? It is getting embarrassing how bad at magic he is.

Remember, he is the person who tested Reanimator in the MODO practice room and decided to ban Mystical Tutor and who thought NPH would fix Standard.

Too bad this isn't MTGSalvation where you can just ban someone for their opinions, reasoning that it is trolling.

[CorpT]

Too bad this isn't MTGSalvation where you can just ban someone for their opinions, reasoning that it is trolling.

Yeah, I hate those MTGSalvation mods. They're the worst. I often go to other boards just to complain about them.

[Richard Cheese]

Stop crying because Legacy finally has a defined metagame, it's no longer 40decks.format.

You should check out Standard. I hear it's pretty awesome to play the same 3 matchups all day at every major tournament.

[KobeBryan]

Yeah, I hate those MTGSalvation mods. They're the worst. I often go to other boards just to complain about them.

You are probably the best mod there.

[CorpT]

You are probably the best mod there.

Not even a mod there. But continue the nerd rage. It warms my heart.

[menace13]

You should check out Standard. I hear it's pretty awesome to play the same 3 matchups all day at every major tournament.
I'm fine with the same ten. So Legacy has a real metagame now and people still find something wrong. Last month it was ban Show and Tell this month it's ban Misstep, Mystic, Clique, Jace?

[Richard Cheese]

I'm fine with the same ten. So Legacy has a real metagame now and people still find something wrong. Last month it was ban Show and Tell this month it's ban Misstep, Mystic, Clique, Jace?

More than ten is not ok?

[Admiral_Arzar]

More than ten is not ok?

Some people are opposed to diversity.

[Nonex]

As the Johnny player I am, I remember those times when I used to build lots of bizarre decks with obscure cards. Despite being tier 3 at best, I remember having so much fun playing those decks.

Until I discovered Survival.

Then I fully understood why it was referred to as THE Johnny card by default. I started playing some known versions in all color combinations to understand how the engine works, then started tinkering with something new, something I could call mine. The result was even more fun and better results. It even won me a playset of Mana Drains.

Then Vengevine was printed.

I had to suffer Timmy suddenly invading my home to tell me that everything I was toying with was crap and that everything was just that easy now. "Simply swing for 16, you don't even need to splash red for Anger! What's more, you don't even need Squee or any other staples anymore!". But that was just the beginning. About two months later, while Timmy was still parasitizing my home, Spike came in without asking first and said I should definitely forget my versions because the swing-for-16 plan was the best of the best and I couldn't compete with it unless I played 4 Vines and 4 Fauna Shaman myself. So what if I didn't want to? "You'll just end up losing lots of absurd mirror matches." I had to start playing other decks, mainly Enchantress with 4 MD Suppression Field. I've always preferred fighting the meta rather than joining it.

And all this nonsense continued until Survival was banned. Then Timmy and Spike left as quickly as they came without saying a word and went on enjoying their Natural Orders, Hive Minds and Jaces as if nothing had happened.

I say fuck you both and your damn bullshit. Let that bastard angry ficus burn in hell forever (it totally deserves it), give me my dear Survivals back, and just as I don't meddle with your toys, don't fucking dare touch mine again.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I feel largely the same way about Mystical Tutor.

[Richard Cheese]

To clarify, I don't care about bannings one way or the other. Legacy is still the best format by far, but a big part of what makes it the best to me is the diversity. Playing against minor variations on the same deck over and over again is just boring, even if it's not overpowered or totally dominant. I think the problem is less with specific cards being overpowered, but with the vast majority of players netdecking the same handfull of winning lists. I don't know if it's a lack of creativity or laziness or what, but it's always going to happen.

Really I think the problem is blown out of proportion, and that without a breakdown of the entire meta at SCG events, it's hard to even point the finger at specific cards/decks/archetypes. For all we know, there could have been a ton of combo in the Boston meta, so very few aggro decks made it past the first few rounds and left things wide open for Blue dominance.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

How is the format not healthy. I think we are getting tunnel vision and are just focusing on the SCG events, there are other tournaments. I played in a 40 person one this weekend in Cedar Rapids and I played against a different deck each round.

U/B Reanimator
Hive mind
Ichorid
Merfolk
T.E.S.
Aggro Loam

And I was playing sneak and show, is that not diverse. If I remember correctly the top 8 was

U/W Stoneblade
Enchantress
B/W Discard
NO RUG
Hive mind
Sneak and Show
Aggro Loam
and I forgot the other one

[menace13]

More than ten is not ok?

It was in reply to your remark on how Standard is 3 decks. Legacy even at this point still has the most diversity of any format.

[Comrade]

Stop crying because Legacy finally has a defined metagame, it's no longer 40decks.format.

This.


Yes. Honestly, what is the problem with a blue dominance, when there are still around ten strong decks you can tune?

But not this.


The color pie is lopsided as all fuck. If anything, keeping the cards in flavor has been more detrimental to the game in the long run than anything else. It would be really nice if WotC would do a complete re-evaluation off everything. Who here would ever bet money that one day red would be the most powerful color? Nobody in their right mind. Why? Because due to flavor and the color pie, WotC will always print strong blue cards and shit red cards.

Personally, I think the colors need to be evened out A LOT more than they are now. That would really provide the diversity everyone is bitching about. But will it ever happen? Not likely. It will always be a game of blue plus four other colors nobody really gives a shit about. When was the last time WotC actually hosed blue a little, 7th edition? How long ago was that? I enjoyed the randomness of the game before Maro's strict enforcement of the color pie. It's been missing that factor for so long, it always just feels boring and predictable at heart now.

[Admiral_Arzar]

This.



But not this.


The color pie is lopsided as all fuck. If anything, keeping the cards in flavor has been more detrimental to the game in the long run than anything else. It would be really nice if WotC would do a complete re-evaluation off everything. Who here would ever bet money that one day red would be the most powerful color? Nobody in their right mind. Why? Because due to flavor and the color pie, WotC will always print strong blue cards and shit red cards.

Personally, I think the colors need to be evened out A LOT more than they are now. That would really provide the diversity everyone is bitching about. But will it ever happen? Not likely. It will always be a game of blue plus four other colors nobody really gives a shit about. When was the last time WotC actually hosed blue a little, 7th edition? How long ago was that? I enjoyed the randomness of the game before Maro's strict enforcement of the color pie. It's been missing that factor for so long, it always just feels boring and predictable at heart now.

The last time they hosed blue was in Alara block. However, things picked back up again after that. Also, I've really given up hope that the other colors will ever be strong enough to compete (especially Red, which continues to just get the shaft continually. It is telling when the best red one-drop ever is from Torment, and they haven't printed anything better since then despite the rampant power creep in (non-red) creatures).

[Gaius Darkfire]

The format is mostly fine, there is just too much tunnel vision with the SCG Open results. Opens results are hugely inbred, and when mixed with the current state of Northeast legacy (hint: the northeast likes blue) you get yesterdays top 16.

This reminds me of the SCG Los Angelos top 8 from a few months back. 7/8 of it was combo, and yet that wasn't a result of a broken format, it was just a right-place, right-time thing. Previous SCG weeks haven't been completely dominated by blue, and future weeks likely wont either. The sky isn't falling.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

The last time they hosed blue was in Alara block. However, things picked back up again after that. Also, I've really given up hope that the other colors will ever be strong enough to compete (especially Red, which continues to just get the shaft continually. It is telling when the best red one-drop ever is from Torment, and they haven't printed anything better since then despite the rampant power creep in (non-red) creatures).

Goblin Guide?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Goblin Guide?

If you think Goblin Guide is better than Grim Lavamancer (or remotely viable in any non-burn, non-suicidal-sligh deck), you need to lay off the crack.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

If you think Goblin Guide is better than Grim Lavamancer (or remotely viable in any non-burn, non-suicidal-sligh deck), you need to lay off the crack.

I have seen some zoo builds that are real fast that run it, it's not better but it is pretty good. Also the best blue one drop ever was printed in unlimited.

[Zilla]

Some people are opposed to diversity.
Goblins stole my bike.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I have seen some zoo builds that are real fast that run it

Thus "suicidal sligh" as in "cat sligh" :P. But this is off topic. My point is, red has gotten the short end of the stick in pretty much everything for a long time.


Goblins stole my bike.

LOL

[lorddotm]

I feel largely the same way about Mystical Tutor.

You realize that the only thing we lost with Mystical Tutor was Reanimator. Storm was still awesome. I guess being on of the players that could actually play Storm kept it awesome for me.

Sure it would be nice to have Mystical Tutor back, but seriously, it has been over a year, get over it. Storm is still alive and good.

I say ban Mental Misstep and let us enjoy the Golden Age again.

That being said, I'm going to be playing Legacy until I quit Magic regardless.

[Admiral_Arzar]

You realize that the only thing we lost with Mystical Tutor was Reanimator. Storm was still awesome. I guess being on of the players that could actually play Storm kept it awesome for me.

Sure it would be nice to have Mystical Tutor back, but seriously, it has been over a year, get over it. Storm is still alive and good.

I say ban Mental Misstep and let us enjoy the Golden Age again.

That being said, I'm going to be playing Legacy until I quit Magic regardless.

Agreed on all points except ReAnimator. Some friends of mine have been testing the deck, and it's a beast even without the tutor. Not sure if it can overcome the dominant blue decks, though. I miss tutor not for ANT and ReAnimator, but for NLS (the best deck evar).

[Richard Cheese]

It was in reply to your remark on how Standard is 3 decks. Legacy even at this point still has the most diversity of any format.

Right, but I took your original post to mean that 40decks.format is somehow bad, or at least worse than the current 10decks.format. I want to know where you draw the line, and why having more viable decks is worse after some arbitrary number?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Right, but I took your original post to mean that 40decks.format is somehow bad, or at least worse than the current 10decks.format. I want to know where you draw the line, and why having more viable decks is worse after some arbitrary number?

Deckism.

[Octopusman]

Legacy is fine, imo.

Does that mean that Wizards won't cave and ban because of perceptions in recent tournament performances? No.

Do most of the people complaining about diversity net deck? Yes.


Innovate.

[trivial_matters]

Goblins stole my bike.

Also, I predict this thread will surpass 10 pages easily.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Some of you have the biggest scrub mentalities in Magic. Oh my gawd, more than 4x of one deck showed up in the top 16 in one week, instantly demand a ban!@!!!1

Give me a break. Last month it was Show and Tell, now it's Mental Misstep, Stoneforge, and Natty Order. While you scrubs are complaining about it the real players are brewing the decks that will take advantage of such a narrow metagame.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-07-31&end_date=2011-07-31&event_ID=20&city=Pittsburgh

How is that top 16 not healthy? Someone please tell me.

[EDIT]
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-08-14&end_date=2011-08-14&event_ID=20

not to bad either



Some of you have the biggest scrub mentalities in Magic. Oh my gawd, more than 4x of one deck showed up in the top 16 in one week, instantly demand a ban!@!!!1

Give me a break. Last month it was Show and Tell, now it's Mental Misstep, Stoneforge, and Natty Order. While you scrubs are complaining about it the real players are brewing the decks that will take advantage of such a narrow metagame.

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zilla]

Right, but I took your original post to mean that 40decks.format is somehow bad, or at least worse than the current 10decks.format. I want to know where you draw the line, and why having more viable decks is worse after some arbitrary number?
Playing the devil's advocate here, the reason would be because fewer viable decks equals a more predictable metagame, which means it's easier to tune a deck to beat said metagame using super sekrit tech.

Phenomenal playskill aside, this is the reason that pros do so well at the game; they are able to evaluate the expected metagame and find ways to beat it. That's an extraordinarily difficult thing to do when there are 40 viable decks.

On a personal level, I prefer more diversity. I like that Legacy is defined by an inability to accurately predict exactly what you're going to be facing all day long at a tournament. But if you're genuinely looking to understand why people are against a widely diverse metagame, that's why.

[AngryTroll]

From Star City's Results (http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/decklists/) for the last thirty days:



NO RUG
UW Stoneblade
NO RUG
NO RUG
Aggro Loam
NO RUG
UW Stoneblade
Reanimator
UWR Stoneblade
UW Stoneblade
NO RUG
UWB Stoneblade
UW Stoneblade
UWG Stoneblade
Zoo
NO RUG



Show and Tell
UW Stoneblade
UWG Stoneblade
NO RUG
Show and Tell
Zoo
GW Aggro
Junk Depths
Merfolk
Zoo
BW
Merfolk
UW Stoneblade
Merfolk
BW
Zoo




Team America
Zoo
Reanimator
NO Toolbox
Aggro Loam
UW Stoneblade
Meroflk
Elves
UGW Stoneblade
Zoo
UW Tempo
Elves
Merfolk
Scapeshift
Reanimator
Merfolk



Hive Mind
NO RUG
Junk Depths
Hive Mind
NO RUG
UR Stiflenought
Hive Mind
Dredge
BG Pox
Illusionary Orb
Zoo
Hive Mind
Bant
Aluren
Blue Zoo
UW Stoneblade



Manaless Dredge
Blue Zoo
Junk Depths
NO RUG
Hive Mind
Mono Blue Control
Dredge
Zoo
Merfolk
NO RUG
NO Bant
Reanimator
NO RUG
RUG
Burn Deck Wins
Painted Stone


I count as viable archetypes: NO RUG, Stoneblade, Merfolk, Zoo, Reanimator, Junk Depths, Hive Mind, and Dredge. There's another nine or ten decks that show up as singletons as well. Let's wait to see what happens in the next few weeks before we want something banned.

[Admiral_Arzar]

On a personal level, I prefer more diversity. I like that Legacy is defined by an inability to accurately predict exactly what you're going to be facing all day long at a tournament. But if you're genuinely looking to understand why people are against a widely diverse metagame, that's why.

This. I actually enjoy not knowing what deck I'm going to get matchup up against each round (and also the knowledge that I can play a rogue deck and catch people by surprise - while actually winning). Other people apparently prefer things to be predictable.

[Freggle]

The meta can't adapt because there's barely NOTHING that meddles with the gameplan of these blue decks, except playing blue yourself, or not casting spells. Because there are no "shield-down" moments, you can't take down the shield with spells designed with that purpose, as they get countered themselves, totally missing the point.



EDIT: I would love to see more innovation in the format.


It's still very important to have a strong proactive gameplan if you want to win in Legacy. Jace, Stoneforge Mystic and Natural Order just seem to be the strongest cards right now, but I'm kinda surprised that there's only one Knight Of The Reliquary deck as these have actually been quite good in my testing as well.


So to piggy-back on Zilla.

When we are trying to brew in the New and Developmental area here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21549-MonoG-Zenith-Abuse&p=578135#post578135).

Why is it so few care to help us tune a list into something viable?

Are we just starry-eyed noobs?

This list now runs Natural Order, Knight of the Reliquary & Summoning Trap all backed up with a strong aggro plan.

...couldn't there be something there?

[Draener]

To expand further upon Zilla's point, the even larger issue with 40 deck format is that your sideboard is still only 15 cards... and a lot of those decks demand specialized slots to even compete. Run into 43 lands? Hope you have extractions. Storm? Better have storm hate? Dredge? Clearly you need a different form of graveyard hate... or they will still play through it. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't enjoy shelling out $30 bucks and 10+ hours to play some fancy rock, paper, scissors. Mental misstep gave you an answer that would punish people for playing their hyper linear deck and hoping you didn't bring the right hate.

That said, I do wish they added cards to other colors than blue to improve consistency. Sylvan library and sensei's top are good start, but there needs to be a couple different ways spread across the colors that are synergistic with each other. Also, red needs real creatures. Common wizards.

[Michael Keller]

So to piggy-back on Zilla.

When we are trying to brew in the New and Developmental area here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21549-MonoG-Zenith-Abuse&p=578135#post578135).

Why is it so few care to help us tune a list into something viable?

Are we just starry-eyed noobs?

This list now runs Natural Order, Knight of the Reliquary & Summoning Trap all backed up with a strong aggro plan.

...couldn't there be something there?

I'm not saying this about you personally, but a lot of the folks that have been on The Source for a long period of time don't necessarily participate in discussion in the N&D forum due in large part to format ignorance. Most people use it as an 'advertising' ploy so they can attract people to look at their decks and critique. Most of the decks there just fade into obscurity because no one thoroughly tests or runs their brew at local events to get any sort of further knowledge-base to work with.

Fact is, if more people used proper grammar, described (in detail) an analysis for each card in their deck, a strong argument for the cards they've both included and excluded, and an additional write-up detailing match-up analysis, people would take those threads a little more serious.

Unfortunately, this does not happen as often as it should, which is why a large percentage of people don't waste their time helping someone who wasn't serious to begin with. A lot of people are new to The Source - and that's fine - but if you're going to post an interesting list and talk about it, at least know what the hell you're doing first. If you don't, ask.

[BenBleiweiss]

It'll be healthy again when they ban misstep, but for now I can't really stand Legacy.

I am hoping that based on Mental Misstep being banned in Modern, and the reasoning Wizards gave for it (they see how it affected Legacy) that Mental Misstep will be banned in Legacy as well. Force of Will is more objectively powerful, but Mental Misstep is much more punishing in what it does (shutting down aggro and combo decks) for the cost (2 life is much less of a price to pay than 1 life and a card).

I think Legacy will return to a thriving metagame if/when MM is banned.

- Ben

[Michael Keller]

I am hoping that based on Mental Misstep being banned in Modern, and the reasoning Wizards gave for it (they see how it affected Legacy) that Mental Misstep will be banned in Legacy as well. Force of Will is more objectively powerful, but Mental Misstep is much more punishing in what it does (shutting down aggro and combo decks) for the cost (2 life is much less of a price to pay than 1 life and a card).

I think Legacy will return to a thriving metagame if/when MM is banned.

- Ben

So, with Vial being legal in Modern (at least, temporarily), is it safe to say they should unban Misstep in Modern to protect it from Vial-based strategies, or just ban them both all-together?

[menace13]

Right, but I took your original post to mean that 40decks.format is somehow bad, or at least worse than the current 10decks.format. I want to know where you draw the line, and why having more viable decks is worse after some arbitrary number?

You can actually metagame for 40 decks?

[Admiral_Arzar]

You can actually metagame for 40 decks?

Some of us would rather play against different decks every round and not worry so much about metagaming to beat a few DTBs. Netdeck less plz.

[Richard Cheese]

You can actually metagame for 40 decks?

Sure. I just pick the deck that I currently enjoy playing the most, then play it.

[Admiral_Arzar]

WTF does a retarded comment about net deck less please even have to do with being able to predict what decks you will face? Some people like being able to exploit the knowledge of what they will face and how to beat it. Please don't make yourself look like an ass anymore.

U mad bro? Seems I struck a nerve. Anyways, as I said, I enjoy not really knowing what I will be playing against. It's not particularly difficult to sideboard for general archetypes rather than specific decks (obvious exceptions aside i.e. Hive Mind). Legacy is like a box of chocolates...


Sure. I just pick the deck that I currently enjoy playing the most, then play it.

This is by far the easiest/best solution to a format with a million decks.

[ajfennewald]

Playing the devil's advocate here, the reason would be because fewer viable decks equals a more predictable metagame, which means it's easier to tune a deck to beat said metagame using super sekrit tech.


Pros being able extract a living from the legacy format is not something I or i suspect many others care about at all.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Pros being able extract a living from the legacy format is not something I or i suspect many others care about at all.

Agreed. Standard is far easier to metagame against, and also much more prolific in terms of tournaments.

[.nemesis]

The European metagame adjusts to shifts more slowly than the American.

I was there too, NO RUG, Stoneblade and Hive Mind were all over the place. I faced Manaless Dredge too, but it's not that good over here because everyone dedicates at least 3 or 4 slots in his sideboard to graveyard shenanigans. I think the metagames aren't all that different, except in Europe the supposed decks to beat don't win that often. It's up to you to decide why that is. Also, people over here don't just copy the latest winning decklists, often they adapt to the metagame by running a natural predator to the popular decks.

On natural predators: Currently all the decks to beat in this board have even matchups against Storm AT BEST. TheSource's DTB forum also resembles our metagame quite nicely, except over here in Europe, people actually have the balls to run Storm and do well with it. Misstep didn't kill it. But I hope people won't stop believing it did - the longer the better, because I enjoy slinging rituals.

Concerning the health of the format: I like it. We have at least 2 relevant decks for each major archetype and none of them is clearly dominating the others. Decks did fall out of favor, but this happens all the time. I did wonder if "attacking with goblins FTW" should be a legitimate strategy in a format as broken as Legacy anyway. Seriously, if your deck can't do shit about all those unfair things your opponent might be up to, I'd reconsider that deck choice.

[menace13]

U mad bro? Seems I struck a nerve. Anyways, as I said, I enjoy not really knowing what I will be playing against. It's not particularly difficult to sideboard for general archetypes rather than specific decks (obvious exceptions aside i.e. Hive Mind). Legacy is like a box of chocolates...



This is by far the easiest/best solution to a format with a million decks.

Whether I'm mad or not is irrel. What does strike my nerve is you placing characteristics on me as if you know me from a few forum posts. Obv you know me well enough to say things like; "you don't like diversity.", "You're a netdecker and not innovative.", or whatever else you have been implying. I stay away from getting personal and rather attack the arguement, not the person. Sideboarding for 10 matchups is so less random than having a field with 40. A person can realistically plan for their sideboard and maindeck and not just roll craps for pairings.

[Amon Amarth]

I don't mind the format at all. In fact, it is much better for people that want to metagame since you know what you'll be expecting. I'm not convinced that Legacy is in a bad way at all. Even with the SCG tournaments there are still regional metagames and people tend to only play whats been good at these events and nothing else. Most people aren't brewers. They just want to play a good deck and win. This gives an impression that there are fewer legitimate decks than there really are. I wonder why no one is playing Vengevine? It does a pretty good job stomping all over Blue. Something like this might be really good now:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39296

[routlaw]

The metagame looks about as diverse as a historically healthy metagame should. I don't think there is an overall problem in the health of the format. I assure you that if you go to a local 10-25 man tournament there will be plenty of the tier 1 decks but also a good third to half of the field will be playing a "tier 2" something (and still be very competitive, especially if it is a good meta call) or playing some random combo deck from 2008 that he found in the bowels of the established deck forum.

I think the format is "healthy", but some individual cards are pretty "sick", if that makes any sense. And even the sick cards aren't too bad except for Mental Misstep which is right up there on the fun scale with drinking battery acid.

[Admiral_Arzar]

On natural predators: Currently all the decks to beat in this board have even matchups against Storm AT BEST. TheSource's DTB forum also resembles our metagame quite nicely, except over here in Europe, people actually have the balls to run Storm and do well with it. Misstep didn't kill it. But I hope people won't stop believing it did - the longer the better, because I enjoy slinging rituals.



I figured somebody would come in and say that at some point, but I don't really consider Storm as a viable solution to the current meta. This is because the decks post wildly different win percentages depending on player skill (I know this as a storm player - I am solid enough but not good enough for even/positive win percentages against heavily disruptive blue decks).

Also, storm does not have an "even to better" matchup against Esper Stoneblade. I won't disagree with you on most of the other DTBs though.

[KobeBryan]

I figured somebody would come in and say that at some point, but I don't really consider Storm as a viable solution to the current meta. This is because the decks post wildly different win percentages depending on player skill (I know this as a storm player - I am solid enough but not good enough for even/positive win percentages against heavily disruptive blue decks).

Also, storm does not have an "even to better" matchup against Esper Stoneblade. I won't disagree with you on most of the other DTBs though.

With the Current state of the meta, the only decks viable really are RUG, BANT, Reanimator, Jacestill, jacestill blade.

Even the Rock folds to these decks. Some may say that the Rock is viable, but the Rock is a reactive deck. For every reaction, there are always a counter behind it.

[Zilla]

Pros being able extract a living from the legacy format is not something I or i suspect many others care about at all.
I'm inclined to agree. That said, I think there are a whole lot of non-pro players out there that like this game for the same reason. They enjoy analyzing a predictable metagame and finding ways to subtly tweak their decks to exploit weaknesses in it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that mentality; I just think that if that's your cup of tea, you're going to get a lot more out of Standard than you are out of Legacy.

[HokusSchmokus]

Also, storm does not have an "even to better" matchup against Esper Stoneblade.
Then you are doing it wrong. The deck he is talking about when saying storm is DDFT btw. Which is clearly the most powerful stormcombo deck over here.
The Problem with complaining about things bc of StarCityGames results is that the top8 does not represent the metagame. Ppl can metagame for a few decks that are considered DTB at the time and all is well. I mean some of them start with multiple byes every time.
Play more local or scg-idependent events. It'll be better.
Or just visit Europe, I doub't we have the problem at all.

edit: Quote option does not work for me O.O

[troopatroop]

Late to the party, but I read every word.


I attribute Legacy getting stale to Stoneforge Mystic, and here's why. Much like Tarmogoyf, it invalidates so many creatures by being a much stronger card than anything else. It has a great mana cost, great utility, great long-term winning power in Batterskull, and does so much for 2cc. I think SFM alone has changed Legacy more than Mental Misstep. Mental Misstep alongside SFM is also extremely strong, to the point where not playing the combination (in a fair, board oriented deck), is an automatic disadvantage to the deck that does. Force of Will, Daze, and Mental Misstep make the strategy of "play 1 threat and ride it to victory" very attractive, because they help for free, and history has shown that they're Legacy's strongest cards.


Legacy has become, "well now that we have a best strategy, what do we pair with it?". Whether you think it's Blue, for Ancestral Visions/Standstill/Brainstorm/Jace, or a B/W build with Dark Confidant/Bitterblossom/Gatekeeper/Elspeth, or somewhere in between? Do you think it's a deck with Stifle and Wasteland, like Team America or New Horizons or Do you think it's Maverick? BigZoo?

And there you have the Legacy metagame. Yes there are Combo decks that don't want it, Control decks that won't play it, and Aggro decks that will try to race it, but I've found the card too strong. I know I'll be chastised for that, and be told to L2P, but the results will speak for themselves. I wouldn't mind if they banned the card, but then again, Legacy is the only place that it's alive anywhere, so of course noone wants to ban it :-/

[Admiral_Arzar]

Then you are doing it wrong. The deck he is talking about when saying storm is DDFT btw. Which is clearly the most powerful stormcombo deck over here.


I've tested the matchup, and DDFT is actually even worse against that deck than TES is. If you can fight through 12 counterspells, 8 discard, 4 extirpate, and Vendilion Clique postboard (plus Bob to ensure they don't run out of answers) against a good player, power to you.

[OurSerratedDust]

I think some of you are missing the point. The amount of blue in the top 16 of this event is far more important than the diversity of the decks.

The results of the next SCG event will be very interesting.

[.nemesis]

I figured somebody would come in and say that at some point, but I don't really consider Storm as a viable solution to the current meta. This is because the decks post wildly different win percentages depending on player skill (I know this as a storm player - I am solid enough but not good enough for even/positive win percentages against heavily disruptive blue decks).


So because most people are unable to pilot whatever deck at a reasonable percentage of the deck's potential, it can't be viable?
I guess this is why Show and Tell based strategies and Merfolk have been so popular in the past months. More seriously though, I can't seem to put up good results against Team America and BUG Threshold myself, but you know what? That's the -1 in your X-1 finish.



Also, storm does not have an "even to better" matchup against Esper Stoneblade. I won't disagree with you on most of the other DTBs though.

I have some practice against Stoneblade, but I've never actually seen Esper Stoneblade in real life. I also can't seem to find lists on the web that specify what disruption package they run. Some of them run Cliques, Thoughtseize, Missteps and Spell Snares but no FoW. Then others run the same disruption package that UWr Stoneblade does (FoW, Cliques, Misstep, Snare, maybe 1 or 2 Counterspell). Would you mind posting the disruption they all should be running?
Against UWr, I found it to be no big deal to cut through their permission with chant effects. But if the blue deck can attack your hand too it gets nasty. Hymn To Tourach is the reason why Team America is so freakishly good against Storm.

[Richard Cheese]

I think some of you are missing the point. The amount of blue in the top 16 of this event is far more important than the diversity of the decks.

The results of the next SCG event will be very interesting.

Yeah but that's pretty much always going to be the case unless WotC either makes huge changes to the banned list or starts printing non-shitty, non-splashable cards for other colors. Until then, people are always going to try to shoehorn blue into decks either for card draw/filtering or protection. See Blue Zoo and Vengevine Survival for evidence of this.

[OurSerratedDust]

Yeah but that's pretty much always going to be the case unless WotC either makes huge changes to the banned list or starts printing non-shitty, non-splashable cards for other colors. Until then, people are always going to try to shoehorn blue into decks either for card draw/filtering or protection. See Blue Zoo and Vengevine Survival for evidence of this.

Banning MM would do the trick.

[rooneg]

I played at SCG Boston (finished 31st, 6 wins 3 losses) and I played against GW Loam, Merfolk, Reanimator, Junk Depths, Hive Mind (twice), Storm, Fae Blade and Bant Aggro. The room was quite diverse, it's just the top 16 that wasn't. I expect if you go further down than 16 you'd find considerably more diversity. Much of this is likely groupthink, lots of people playing RUG because lots of people talk about it having a good matchup against the field.

The decks that make up the top 16 are good, no question about it, but individually they're not dominant. Just look at the stats from the last few SCG tournaments, NO RUG is >50% against the field, but it's not crazy better, just better enough that good players win more than they lose.

(I played NO Bant, FWIW, and I thought I had pretty reasonable game against the field. Lost to Junk Depths, Hive Mind (once) and Bant Aggro, all games that were at least in play. NO RUG and SFM.dec are not the only options.)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I played at SCG Boston (finished 31st, 6 wins 3 losses) and I played against GW Loam, Merfolk, Reanimator, Junk Depths, Hive Mind (twice), Storm, Fae Blade and Bant Aggro. The room was quite diverse, it's just the top 16 that wasn't. I expect if you go further down than 16 you'd find considerably more diversity. Much of this is likely groupthink, lots of people playing RUG because lots of people talk about it having a good matchup against the field.

This doesn't follow. If the field overall is quite diverse and the top 16 isn't, and these results are consistent and not abberant, then that suggests people are just making poor decisions.

[Zilla]

This doesn't follow. If the field overall is quite diverse and the top 16 isn't, and these results are consistent and not abberant, then that suggests people are just making poor decisions.
I was thinking the same thing, but I refrained from saying it just yet, because we still have a relatively small sample size. If we see similar results for several months in a row, the logical conclusion is that, yes, you might see 40 different decks at a tournament, but 38 of them were a bad choice.

[DrJones]

I was thinking the same thing, but I refrained from saying it just yet, because we still have a relatively small sample size. If we see similar results for several months in a row, the logical conclusion is that, yes, you might see 40 different decks at a tournament, but 38 of them were a bad choice.
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_difference.png

[crovakiet]

My 2 pence,

I love the post-misstep environment because it killed off Goblins or at least made it a lot less viable. Having to FoW a Vial or Lackey (without swords) was a kick in the nuts. Yes, I am biased since I have played islands.dec in the eternal formats of Vintage and type 1.5 when Mana Drains were legal.

I totally believe that the post-misstep environment is a healthy/diverse format. I believe that both NO RUG and U/W Stoneblade have unfavorable matchups against pure u/w or bug control decks. The only problem is that these u/w or bug control lists can just lose to rogue/jank decks, merfolk/goblins or just straight burn to the dome.

The OP only lists the most recent SCG where it seems NO RUG and U/W Stoneblade lists were the most dominant however let's take a look at another SCG event where U/W Stoneblade.dec was legal yet DIDNT EVEN MAKE TOP 16 such as the 7/17/2011 SCG Open http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-04-24&end_date=2011-07-17&event_ID=20&city=Cincinnati

Or how about this SCG taking place 08/14/2011 http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-08-14&end_date=2011-08-14&event_ID=20

Look at that, 1 NO RUG list in the top 16. Must be an overpowered deck I guess? If we start seeing 3+ months of this sort of data then yea maybe something is wrong, but there is no evidence of this happening beyond the fact that blue is good as a main/support color which should be no surprise to anyone playing in any of the Eternal formats? Go play Modern if you want a possible non-blue dominant format.

Show and Tell is like the only possible card that could be banned mainly because eventually there will be such a game-breaking artifact/creature/enchantment/land that puts the combo over the top for example a 20+cc creature, indestructible, 20/20, haste, protection from everything that causes the other player to discard their whole hand when it comes into play. Chances of it being printed? Not likely but hey, Emrakul does set some sort of precedent for what Wizards will print right?

Legacy is still a fun format, and I love it even more post Misstep. Modern is bad. Standard is crap but I still play Standard because its what the locals usually play and thus I play a Red Deck because it's the cheapest to make without investing too much in the crap format that is Standard.

[Zilla]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_difference.png
It's a safe bet that the "normal" person assumes they were struck by lightning because God was mad at them for pulling the lever.

[DrJones]

The joke is that a normal person doesn't wait for "several months" of data before drawing a conclussion regardless of how obvious the cause -> effect relation is. Only a sciencist mind would repeat a very unpleasant experience several times out of curiosity. :)

[Zilla]

The joke is that a normal person doesn't wait for "several months" of data before drawing a conclussion regardless of how obvious the cause -> effect relation is. Only a sciencist mind would repeat a very unpleasant experience several times out of curiosity. :)
I get the joke. What I'm saying is that there's a term to describe coming to a firm conclusion based on assumption. It's called faith.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Also, the scientist is the one who's more likely to find the solution for a "problem". If people were always like "oh, this doesn't work, I'm not gonna do this ever again" where would we be right now? There would be pretty much no progress at all.

[Royal Ass.]

Crovakiet - I pretty much agree with everything you just said. I like post Misstep Legacy and am kind of surprised by this thread. I think a lot of it is the result of people's pet decks or strategies getting hosed. One of the reasons I didn't originally like Legacy that much because it was too focused on cheap spells and linear aggro strategies like goblins. I hated that deck. Shitty one dimensional decks like that should not exist in a healthy serious format. MM slowed things down and I like the format better.

Currently I think the worst offender in Legacy is SFM. I think I'm just getting sick of seeing that damn card. But I feel like it shouldn't be as dominant as it is. It's a freaking Type 2 deck for the love of god ;)

[crovakiet]

The joke is that a normal person doesn't wait for "several months" of data before drawing a conclussion regardless of how obvious the cause -> effect relation is. Only a sciencist mind would repeat a very unpleasant experience several times out of curiosity. :)

So you are saying that people who snowboard or ski for the first time and fall a lot which results in an unenjoyable experience shouldn't even bother trying again? Or exercise for which they are very sore the next day shouldn't do that either? People get the joke, but it's really not that funny nor does it illustrate a valid point in regards to Magic the Gathering.

[DrJones]

Yeah, well, you can also test your assumptions in a close environment (MODO test room, lol) to open your eyes and then reach your conclussion in a few sessions without having to ruin the next fifty real-life tournaments just to satisfy your curiosity in a real environment. You know, like R&D does.

But who knows, maybe waiting is the right move and Innistrad has something to fix the problem, in the same vein New Phyrexia had something to fix caw-blade.

[CorpT]

Yeah, well, you can also test your assumptions in a close environment (MODO test room, lol) to open your eyes and then reach your conclussion in a few sessions without having to ruin the next fifty real-life tournaments just to satisfy your curiosity in a real environment. You know, like R&D does.

But who knows, maybe waiting is the right move and Innistrad has something to fix the problem, in the same vein New Phyrexia had something to fix caw-blade.

Tom LaPille to the rescue! Clearly Tom is a Magic genius. I'm going to start maindecking Great Sable Stag so I can beat Mental Misstep decks. That'll show all those people playing Mistbind Clique. Suckers!

[Koby]

It's a shame Imperial Recruiter is not more readily accessible, because playing Red Painter would be awesome in the blue.metagame.

[Zilla]

One of the reasons I didn't originally like Legacy that much because it was too focused on cheap spells and linear aggro strategies like goblins. I hated that deck. Shitty one dimensional decks like that should not exist in a healthy serious format.
You think Vial Goblins is one dimensional? That blows my mind. One of the reasons it was so successful is because it's simultaneously one of the most aggressive strategies in the format, while being perfectly capable of switching to a control role and going to the long game. If Goblins is one dimensional and linear and terrible for the format, what does that make Zoo?



Yeah, well, you can also test your assumptions in a close environment (MODO test room, lol) to open your eyes and then reach your conclussion in a few sessions without having to ruin the next fifty real-life tournaments just to satisfy your curiosity in a real environment.
I think you'd be hard pressed to convince anyone that 50 tournaments were "ruined" because they had a predictable metagame with a couple of clearly defined best decks. A lot of people actually like that sort of environment, and there's plenty of room for the people that don't to explore and adapt.

Let's put this in perspective. Several years ago, people frequently called for the banning of Lackey, because it was warping the format and forcing every deck to pack an answer for it or lose. They did the same thing with Tarmogoyf a couple years later. Look now: Lackey is nowhere to be seen, and Tarmogoyf is certainly less prevalent than it was a year ago. I think the same thing will happen with Show and Tell, Stoneforge Mystic, etc.

The format simply has a way of working past the cards which seem dominant at any given time. If, a year or two from now, Natural Order is still tearing things up, maybe it's time to take a look at it. But unless you're seeing it take better than 50% at every single tournament for at least a month or two in a row, you're probably jumping the gun. You need to give the format time to adjust.

[Koby]

The format simply has a way of working past the cards which seem dominant at any given time. If, a year or two from now, Natural Order is still tearing things up, maybe it's time to take a look at it. But unless you're seeing it take better than 50% at every single tournament for at least a month or two in a row, you're probably jumping the gun. You need to give the format time to adjust.

Most of us know this to be true. Apparently R&D and the SCG Hive Mind don't think alike, and pre-emptively ban archetypal cards before they get the routine 6-month shake down. This set a bad precedent on the threshold of tolerance for format defining cards. Many of us here at the Source were saying the exact last sentence back in December and got trolled.

Who is to say R&D know best how to balance Eternal Ban lists when they themselves can't even figure out how to properly answer Mental Misstep? (Tom_L "Play Stag :B derp derp").

[Deady]

To my opinion the format has finally become more serious and less one-dimensional after it slowed down a bit. Going to the late game finally matters more, which makes the game by itself more attractive to me. Cards that matter now, have mattered before. Also, there isn't any broken stuff happening. The only real change is that decks who mostly relied on their turn one play (like Vial or Lackey) have slightly descreased in power. Also remember popularity always plays a part in tournament listings as well...if everybody would play Team America, then most likely we would see more Team America in the Top 16.

For some players it actually might be worth to take a look at the new Modern format, which is what I believe more aggro-orientated, still with acces to Legacy staples.

[Admiral_Arzar]

To my opinion the format has finally become more serious and less one-dimensional after it slowed down a bit. Going to the late game finally matters more, which makes the game by itself more attractive to me. Cards that matter now, have mattered before. Also, there isn't any broken stuff happening. The only real change is that decks who mostly relied on their turn one play (like Vial or Lackey) have slightly descreased in power. Also remember popularity always plays a part in tournament listings as well...if everybody would play Team America, then most likely we would see more Team America in the Top 16.

For some players it actually might be worth to take a look at the new Modern format, which is what I believe more aggro-orientated, still with acces to Legacy staples.

I'm pretty sure it is YOU who should be looking at the new modern format, if you're enjoying the current lack of brokeness in Legacy. They banned all the broken (I mean fun) stuff in that format. Broken things are supposed to happen in Legacy.

And seriously, why all the hate for goblins in this thread? Do blue players seriously cry that much about that deck?

[Draener]

I'll agree that goblins is pretty much the least linear aggro deck ever, unless you mean that it can only win by attacking... which is the case of all aggro decks. My take on combo is that it should have some pretty difficult games if it wants to have byes against half the field. I get the feeling that alot of the people who want MM banned are people who would be ecstatic if legacy was 20 combo decks with 15 sideboard cards to deal with hate that's good against them.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I'll agree that goblins is pretty much the least linear aggro deck ever, unless you mean that it can only win by attacking... which is the case of all aggro decks.

Even then, Goblins has Siege-Gang Commander.

[CorpT]

Most of us know this to be true. Apparently R&D and the SCG Hive Mind don't think alike, and pre-emptively ban archetypal cards before they get the routine 6-month shake down. This set a bad precedent on the threshold of tolerance for format defining cards. Many of us here at the Source were saying the exact last sentence back in December and got trolled.

Who is to say R&D know best how to balance Eternal Ban lists when they themselves can't even figure out how to properly answer Mental Misstep? (Tom_L "Play Stag :B derp derp").

This is the real problem.

To summarize:

Reanimator and TES/ANT decks see more play at the SCG events (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2009-11-15&end_date=2010-06-27&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=Mystical+Tutor).

Look at that. 25 whole decks.

Tom LaPille sees this as an issue that can't be solved by Great Sable Stag, so they ban Mystical Tutor:


When we saw (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/96) the Grand Prix–Madrid finals decks, a few of us got worried, jumped onto Magic Online, and started playing some Legacy with them. We were terrified by what we found. Although we were playing in the tournament practice room, which is hardly the same thing as a real tournament environment, we weren't losing very many matches with either Reanimator or Ad Nauseam. In my case, I don't recall losing any matches with either deck outside of a misclick while I was still learning the Ad Nauseam deck. The decks were just so strong that opponents not set up in their maindecks or that didn't sideboard heavily against us couldn't compete.

That's right. They decided to ban Mystical Tutor based on GP:Madrid results and MODO Practice Room testing.

At this point, the precedence has been set. Regardless if you think Mystical Tutor should have been banned or not, the idea that one GP worth of results and some MODO Practice Room testing is sufficient to ban a card should be appalling to anyone who plays Legacy. To be sure: Mystical Tutor is an extremely good card. It may be ban worthy. But it shouldn't be banned for 1 GP and some MODO testing.

And so now we're in a position where every time a good card comes along, people will clamor for it to be banned because they realize that the DCI will do this if they complain enough. It helps that Tom LaPille does not understand competitive Magic and thinks that Great Sable Stag is a good answer to Mental Misstep in Legacy.

[Admiral_Arzar]

This is the real problem.

To summarize:

Reanimator and TES/ANT decks see more play at the SCG events (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2009-11-15&end_date=2010-06-27&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=Mystical+Tutor).

Look at that. 25 whole decks.

Tom LaPille sees this as an issue that can't be solved by Great Sable Stag, so they ban Mystical Tutor:



That's right. They decided to ban Mystical Tutor based on GP:Madrid results and MODO Practice Room testing.

At this point, the precedence has been set. Regardless if you think Mystical Tutor should have been banned or not, the idea that one GP worth of results and some MODO Practice Room testing is sufficient to ban a card should be appalling to anyone who plays Legacy. To be sure: Mystical Tutor is an extremely good card. It may be ban worthy. But it shouldn't be banned for 1 GP and some MODO testing.

And so now we're in a position where every time a good card comes along, people will clamor for it to be banned because they realize that the DCI will do this if they complain enough. It helps that Tom LaPille does not understand competitive Magic and thinks that Great Sable Stag is a good answer to Mental Misstep in Legacy.

Seeing that article quoted still causes me to nerd rage like no other, even a year later. That is where I lost all faith in R&D to ever do the right thing with regards to Legacy (occasionally I get surprised though, like when they unbanned Time Spiral, I'll admit). This also set the bar for further action, so in the end it didn't realize surprise me that Survival got the axe.

However, I will say that Mystical Tutor was a bit of a special case. Keep in mind that R&D views fast combo (particularly storm combo) as an abomination that ruins their game and isn't fun for anyone, and they do their best to keep it out of formats (see the banlist in modern). Mystical Tutor - powered ReAnimator and ANT were not even close to dominating, and they were banned simply for fear of combo becoming the DTB. If they pursued a similar policy with the current format, something (Mental Misstep, Mystic, NO) would already have been axed. But it's ok, those aren't combo decks, so R&D doesn't care if they dominate the format.

[CorpT]

Seeing that article quoted still causes me to nerd rage like no other, even a year later. That is where I lost all faith in R&D to ever do the right thing with regards to Legacy (occasionally I get surprised though, like when they unbanned Time Spiral, I'll admit). This also set the bar for further action, so in the end it didn't realize surprise me that Survival got the axe.

However, I will say that Mystical Tutor was a bit of a special case. Keep in mind that R&D views fast combo (particularly storm combo) as an abomination that ruins their game and isn't fun for anyone, and they do their best to keep it out of formats (see the banlist in modern). Mystical Tutor - powered ReAnimator and ANT were not even close to dominating, and they were banned simply for fear of combo becoming the DTB. If they pursued a similar policy with the current format, something (Mental Misstep, Mystic, NO) would already have been axed. But it's ok, those aren't combo decks, so R&D doesn't care if they dominate the format.

Completely agree. I really don't object to most bannings. I don't think banning Survival has made Legacy worse. I don't know that it has made it better either, but more likely. Same with Mystical Tutor. For me, the bannings are less of an issue than the rationale behind them and the communication of them.

What I want from the DCI is simple:

1) Consistent bannings/unbannings. This includes data to back them up.
2) Clear explanations regarding these bannings. Why one card was banned and another wasn't.
3) People who understand how to communicate and who understand the format. This means that Tom LaPille should be washing windows instead of commenting on Magic.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Cards that people wanted banned that weren't banned in the last couple years:
Lackey
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Goyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Force of Will
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Standstill
Natural Order
Show and Tell
Mental Misstep


You people need to stop calling for bannings every time a card sees play. Given time, the format adjusts and when it can't adjust then we can ban a card.

[Admiral_Arzar]

What I want from the DCI is simple:

1) Consistent bannings/unbannings. This includes data to back them up.
2) Clear explanations regarding these bannings. Why one card was banned and another wasn't.
3) People who understand how to communicate and who understand the format. This means that Tom LaPille should be washing windows instead of commenting on Magic.

100% agree here.

[troopatroop]

Let's put this in perspective. Several years ago, people frequently called for the banning of Lackey, because it was warping the format and forcing every deck to pack an answer for it or lose. They did the same thing with Tarmogoyf a couple years later. Look now: Lackey is nowhere to be seen, and Tarmogoyf is certainly less prevalent than it was a year ago. I think the same thing will happen with Show and Tell, Stoneforge Mystic, etc.

This is where I don't agree with you, albeit you are right. Goblin Lackey is a different example, because it's tied to an entire core of cards that you HAVE to play. Show and Tell is like Lackey in a sense, but you have to play "dead" cards that only win you the game (emrakul/hivemind), but my contention is that Stoneforge Mystic is very different. Show and Tell is a combo deck. Stoneforge Mystic wins the game on it's own.

That's the thing, is that it's the strongest individual card, and is just a splashable as 'Goyf. Change won't come until they print a better card, or ban the Batterskull. I don't think that it really can. U/w Control decks will always be able to handle Combo, and win with a Stoneforge Mystic whenever. It's just so ez-mode, and while it's the "flavor of the month", it's not going away. Ban Batterskull!

[lordofthepit]

It wasn't as diverse was the post-Survival, pre-Misstep metagame, but it's still pretty awesome. Even the Survival metagame, in which there were really only three DTBs (G/W Survival, U/G Survival, and Ooze Survival), was much more fun than any other format since other Tier 2 decks could still occasionally win. I also enjoyed the Mystical Tutor era. Counterbalance era of 2009 was probably the least fun for me, even when I played CBT, myself, but even then, I preferred Legacy to any other format.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Stoneforge Mystic wins the game on it's own.


Ban Batterskull!

Are you trolling us right now?

[troopatroop]

Are you trolling us right now?

Are you serious? Batterskull is the reason it wins on it's own. Are kids really this bad?

[lorddotm]

Are you serious? Batterskull is the reason it wins on it's own. Are kids really this bad?

You want Batterskull banned in a format with Ancient Grudge, Swords, Jace, Bolt, Lavamancer, Pridemage, and half a million different answers?

You know what would make SFM a lot worse? Banning Mental Misstep.

[Koby]

You know what would make SFM a lot worse? Banning Mental Misstep Stoneforge Mystic.

Fixed that for you.

[CorpT]

It warms my heart to see how wrong IBA was when he declared Batterskull unplayable.

[Zilla]

Are you serious? Batterskull is the reason it wins on it's own. Are kids really this bad?
What he's saying is that it's ironic that you say SFM wins games on its own, yet it requires Batterskull to do so. This seems like an obvious contradiction.

In any case, I'm not seeing any evidence that SFM requires action. I don't see any difference between it and any number of cards that have been part of prevalent strategies in this format's history. People believed Tarmogoyf won games all by itself a couple years ago, and it's a hell of a lot more difficult to answer than Stoneforge. Countertop was absolutely everywhere a little over a year ago, and now it's nowhere to be found. It was also harder to answer than Stoneforge.

Is SFM a super strong card? Absolutely. Will it be dominating tournaments a year or more from now? I'd be willing to bet cash money it won't.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Every time I think of SFM, I think of Goblin Lackey way before either Goyf of Balance. And a lot of the pro/anti Lackey arguments are getting re-hashed here.

[Zilla]

Every time I think of SFM, I think of Goblin Lackey way before either Goyf of Balance. And a lot of the pro/anti Lackey arguments are getting re-hashed here.
Same here, but Troop says it's not the same because Lackey requires a deck to be built around it, so I used other examples.

I think it's very much the same, because it's a creature that gives you a full turn to burn its scrawny ass before it does any real damage.

[DrJones]

If Stoneforge Mystic is broken in the current meta, then I guess it's time to pick my old rebel deck and start winning tournaments.

[menace13]

If Stoneforge Mystic is broken in the current meta, then I guess it's time to pick my old rebel deck and start winning tournaments.

Obviously you will not since it plays FoW.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

What he's saying is that it's ironic that you say SFM wins games on its own, yet it requires Batterskull to do so. This seems like an obvious contradiction.


Holy shit, I can't believe you had to point this out. This thread is epic.

[troopatroop]

Same here, but Troop says it's not the same because Lackey requires a deck to be built around it, so I used other examples.

I think it's very much the same, because it's a creature that gives you a full turn to burn its scrawny ass before it does any real damage.

Yes it gives you a single turn to stop it, but Bolting it or STPing it isn't an even trade. You still get Batterskull or an Equipment for "free", and likely have many other cards to push on. Kill the token and they return it to hand and Flash it in again. Pridemage is admittedly good against it.

I'd be willing to make that bet. "Dominating Tournaments" is subjective. Are we talking half of every top8?


Holy shit, I can't believe you had to point this out. This thread is epic.

And you just assume I didn't realizze!! Ughhh derp derp derp

What YOU failed to realize, was that in the actual game of magic in which you cast Stoneforge Mystic, the card does everything by itself. It finds the win condition, AND puts it into play for 3 mana off. The Batterskull is +1 Card Advantage, if you hadn't already noticed.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It warms my heart to see how wrong IBA was when he declared Batterskull unplayable.

Absolutely no one on these boards was talking about putting Batterskull into a control deck when the card came out. When Turtenwald's list came out after the GP I was very quick to say that I thought the strategy made a lot more sense than what people were doing before, which was slapping Batterskull in creature decks that had already been running Jitte etc.. Well....not no one Jack! :) - Rick (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20844-SCD-Batterskull&p=552804&viewfull=1#post552804)

In those decks I think I'm pretty validated. Batterskull isn't very good in creature-based decks. Where it's doing well is as Exalted Angel 2.0. (Even then I think that archetype is somewhat overplayed compared to its numbers)

[menace13]

Batterskull has made SFM into a mini Tinker. Baaby Steel Wind Sphinx on turn 3 is going to win games that focus on the red zone to win- Emrakul,Progenitus and hordes of zombies excluded-. Misstep, FoW, Spell Snare, StP, and Jace, all fueled by Brainstorm and Visions/Standstill is just so much to deal with and very few ways of resolving or even much time for an answer to the threats.

[jazzykat]

Legacy is fine.
To be honest though, I had more fun when Mystical Tutor and Survival were legal.

+1

Different decks do win, remember when CB/Top and Tarmogoyf needed to be banned?

IMO the only reason Survival needed to be banned was because MT was banned.

I've posted it a million times, instead of banning cards and bitching we should be unbanning and innovating.

[AriLax]

+1

Different decks do win, remember when CB/Top and Tarmogoyf needed to be banned?

IMO the only reason Survival needed to be banned was because MT was banned.

I've posted it a million times, instead of banning cards and bitching we should be unbanning and innovating.

Mystical Tutor was not healthy. Post-ban Storm was probably one of if not the best decks. How is "This deck is only in check because it loses to the other turn 2 combo deck which in turn is a bit more fragile" a healthy state of affairs? I would rather unban Vamp before I unban Mystical, at least there's a chance something other than Reanimator and Storm use the card and it punishes both those decks more (and doesn't pitch to Force).

Survival was not healthy either. That one is 100% unarguable. Didn't kill me on three through my Force/Stifle/etc? Dead, thanks.

[UnsungHero]

Legacy the format is very healthy. But people just seem to copy the latest SCG top 8 decks and play those, which makes the format seem stale. Each one of these decks becomes hype because it won a large tourney and everyone hops on the hype train and it becomes stale. Its up to the players to brainstorm new ideas and adapt and fight these decks. I personally think this is what makes legacy so much of a fun challenge. Legacy is a like a game of king of the mountain we must find a way to dethrone the current king with the tools that we have. Instead of complaining about the king, lets find a way to dethrone him.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

And you just assume I didn't realizze!! Ughhh derp derp derp

What YOU failed to realize, was that in the actual game of magic in which you cast Stoneforge Mystic, the card does everything by itself. It finds the win condition, AND puts it into play for 3 mana off. The Batterskull is +1 Card Advantage, if you hadn't already noticed.

It does all of that?!?!?!?!?! NO WAY!!!!!

Posting sarcasm for sarcasm's sake is spam and flamebait. Keep it civil. -zilla

[UnsungHero]

Why do people think that stoneforge/batterskull is the most broken combo in the world? Is it good? Most Definitely. But legacy has so many other 2 card combos that are very good as well. NO-Progenitus, Hexmage-Depths,Show&Tell-Emrakul. Sure Stoneforge searches for the batter-skull on the spot, but doesn't win you the game on the spot either. And like most combos, it can be dealt with. Don't squeal, learn to deal. Everything has an answer. Use your brain and find one.

[Fl0do]

Its up to the players to brainstorm new ideas and adapt and fight these decks.

Caleb Durward for example put up good results with his homebrew decks (Vengevine Survival whicht got finally banned, BW Discard with Phyrexian Obliterator and Blue Zoo - and other decks i think, but i can't recall them).

[SpikeyMikey]

Legacy is fine.

People were bitching and complaining when Aether Vial was blowing out people in Aggro decks like Merfolk and Goblins. Now that Misstep is here, people are complaining it is warping the format. It isn't 'warping' anything, folks; it's a product of a lack of creativity. There is a huge influx of new players running brews they see listed on Star City's website or by word of mouth from friends, and those folks just pick those decks up and run with them. Legacy is at an all-time low as it pertains to its 'creative' aspect, which is why you see the same decks like NO Rug, Hive Mind, etc. running the gauntlet week in and week out. I still feel the format is fine, though. There are lots of different archetypes winning each week, which is what makes the format great.

To be honest though, I had more fun when Mystical Tutor and Survival were legal.

QFT. I do believe that NO RUG is the strongest deck in the format. I started thinking that 3-4 weeks before the Invitational in Indy. But I believe that an over-reliance on Mental Misstep out of other tempo-based decks is what's causing the problem. Spell Pierce just doesn't see the play that it used to because it's been largely swapped 1-for-1 with Misstep. Less Spell Pierce makes Natural Order better and they don't give a fuck about Misstep. Additionally, RUG became better than Bant with the printing of GSZ the set prior. Bant had the advantage of having a better aggro backup plan, because relying on resolving a 4 mana sorcery that involves sacrificing a creature to win is a little rough sometimes. But with 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 KotR (not to mention RWM as a hedge against aggro), Bant was pretty solid. But burn is a better hedge agaisnt aggro; not letting them hit you is better than recovering some of the life lost. With GSZ bringing the deck up to 8 Tarmogoyfs, it can match Bant's aggro backup plan and Lavamancer and Lightning Bolt help remove blockers and flatten opposing 'goyfs.

So the solution to the metagame is still blue, but basically, if you're running Spell Pierce, Vendilion Clique and Trygon Predator, you're pretty good against the top 2 decks. Spell Pierce is also pretty excellent against Hive Mind. I would also take a page from the G/W deck from Baltimore (I think) and pack Aven Mindcensor, since it wrecks both GSZ and Natural Order. GSZ is heavily played right now, so having answers to it is always a plus. That means Bant colors, might as well toss in SFM since the equipment pairs well with fliers.

But more on topic, there's always people fortelling the imminent stagnation of the format. A few months ago everyone had their panties bunched about High Tide. A few weeks ago it was Hive Mind. A top deck will only stay that way for a few weeks to a month but in that time, people that aren't good enough constructionists to find solutions will cry that it's the end of Legacy. Then some builders will hand them a list that beats the DtB and they'll shut up for a bit... Until the next top deck emerges. The format is still fluid, Stoneforge and Natural Order will cycle out of favor. It will probably happen soon, as there's a decrease in Missteps out there as people realize that cards like Daze and Spell Pierce are still pretty damn good and that Misstep really is a little overrated. Don't get me wrong, it's still good, but it's not an auto-include in everything blue the way people think it is.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

So the solution to the metagame is still blue, but basically, if you're running Spell Pierce, Vendilion Clique and Trygon Predator, you're pretty good against the top 2 decks. Spell Pierce is also pretty excellent against Hive Mind. I would also take a page from the G/W deck from Baltimore (I think) and pack Aven Mindcensor, since it wrecks both GSZ and Natural Order. GSZ is heavily played right now, so having answers to it is always a plus. That means Bant colors, might as well toss in SFM since the equipment pairs well with fliers.


I am testing out a landstill build that runs humility. That card is nuts right now. It stops sfm, spellstuter, clique and zoo. Also maybe someone should brew up a deck that runs suppression field. Turn one it could just stop them from playing anything if all they had are fetchlands.

[jrw1985]

Caleb Durward for example put up good results with his homebrew decks (Vengevine Survival whicht got finally banned, BW Discard with Phyrexian Obliterator and Blue Zoo - and other decks i think, but i can't recall them).

YES! +Bajillion

Legacy has gotten pretty homogenous, but without good reason. Legacy is still a format where your deck is viable if it can win consistently on turn 4 (or, you know, lock up the game). But for some reason SCG Opens have all the innovation of "My Stoneblade deck has B for Bob!" "My Stoneblade deck has R for Lavamancer!". And the NO RUG decks are all essentially Canadian Threshold with NO Progenitus thrown in.

I'm not a great innovator or deck designer, but when I saw MM spoiled I thought, 'Awesome! Now EVERY Strategy has access to a free counterspell!' I figured we'd be seeing it in Zoo builds, aggro builds, and of course anything disruption heavy. Instead, it's just being played in decks with Brainstorm and FoW. Ho Hum.

I've been using 4 Mental Misstep in my Rgb Goblins deck since MM came out, and guess what? It's awesome. Having Lackey + MM on the play is practically an auto-win (Ok maybe not an auto-win, but it's awesome). I love having access to MM if only to smack around opposing Brainstorms. But from what I've seen I'm the only person playing MM at my local tournaments that isn't running other U cards. Was every other aggro or combo deck so tight that it could neither support running MM nor succeed in a format where others could play it?

And SFM + Batterskull is really not the be-all and end-all of legacy. For one, K-Grip still exists. And so does spot removal. And Ancient Grudge. So... yeah....

I believe Legacy is a format going through some growing pains at the moment, and like all hormone induced growth spurts we on the receiving end feel awkward and uncomfortable and just want to fit in. So everyone picks up SFM + Batterskull or NO Progenitus, just because that's what they see succeeding.

And those decks are succeeding because they're versatile and consistent, not because they're capable of the same explosiveness and durability of Survival/Vine. In other words, they're still fairly fair decks. They have powerful effects, but not so powerful that they end the game immediately. Killing with NO Progentitus still takes 3 turns (cast NO, attack x 2), killing with SFM takes 7 (cast SFM, cheat Skull, attack x 5)!

The format is healthy. The degenerate decks aren't degenerate, just solid. Don't just call for bannings. Wizards will print new sets for as long as people are willing to buy them. New stuff will come along and make the old stuff better or worse. And the format will keep evolving.

[Koby]

I am testing out a landstill build that runs humility. That card is nuts right now. It stops sfm, spellstuter, clique and zoo. Also maybe someone should brew up a deck that runs suppression field. Turn one it could just stop them from playing anything if all they had are fetchlands.

Torpor Orb stops 3/4 of the cards you listed. Doesn't stop Goyf and other dumb beaters I suppose, but Wrath does that just fine.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Torpor Orb stops 3/4 of the cards you listed. Doesn't stop Goyf and other dumb beaters I suppose, but Wrath does that just fine.

Yeah, I was thinking of a 2/2 split between humility and wrath. Also humility shrinks emrakul and progenitus where torpor orb does nothing against them.

[Koby]

Yeah, I was thinking of a 2/2 split between humility and wrath. Also humility shrinks emrakul and progenitus where torpor orb does nothing against them.

True, yet both are susceptible to Gaddock Teeg (which is conveniently found by GSZ). I prefer using Ensnaring Bridge to handle the fatties, and Torpor Orb to deal with the EtB dudes. They're also cheaper on mana cost (which makes them faster solutions). That said, they are vulnerable to artifact hate which is much more common than enchantment hate.

[Rune]

Caleb Durward for example put up good results with his homebrew decks (Vengevine Survival whicht got finally banned, BW Discard with Phyrexian Obliterator and Blue Zoo - and other decks i think, but i can't recall them).

Caleb took the BW Discard deck to GP Providence and did poorly. Later he wrote that he should just have sleeved up a deck with Brainstorms instead. All pros basically played blue decks at the GP. To quote LSV:

"Non-blue decks may not be playing Misstep, but that doesn’t mean the card isn’t as good as predicted; it just means non-blue decks suck. Despite the fact that you can play anything you want, if you really want to win the tournament I don’t see how you can start your decklist with anything other than 4 Force of Will 4 Mental Misstep. I mean, I’ll always play Brainstorm and Jace too, but as long as you have Forces and Missteps I’ll allow it."

The format isn't unhealthy as such right now, but most people will agree that Legacy was much more enjoyable without MM, so why shouldn't WotC ban MM? The printing of the card made no sense to begin with, since it just made the best decks stronger. It's similar to printing a BBBB ritual for B when Storm was the best archetype. Also, WotC has shown that they are willing to ban cards to nerf archetypes (Mystical in Legacy and a ton of control cards in Modern), so I don't think a ban on MM would violate any kind of rule about only banning the broken stuff.

Patrick Sullivan also wrote an excellent comment (I think) in the SCG forums some time ago:

“I think Legacy is going to become less popular over the long term because of Misstep and the StarCity circuit. It might take a while to get there, but I feel the writing is on the wall. When Legacy is at its most miserable (maybe not for the Spikes or people who post on The Source, but for the average casual dude), it's when one player is forwarding his game while free-rolling (or close to it) answers to whatever the other person is doing (Force, Daze, Pierce, Snare, Stifle, etc.), and Misstep is the most obnoxious of all of these offenders by far. Beyond that, Misstep is especially hateful towards creature/tribal decks, which is what a lot of people want to rock anyway.

Legacy began to explode when it appeared the format was about everything; Misstep is another blue card that makes the format about very specific things. And now with StarCity providing the incentive for people to actually figure out what the good decks are, I fear the great, unsolvable mystery that made Legacy so popular is not long for this world.”

[Dia_Bot]

“I think Legacy is going to become less popular over the long term because of Misstep and the StarCity circuit. It might take a while to get there, but I feel the writing is on the wall. When Legacy is at its most miserable (maybe not for the Spikes or people who post on The Source, but for the average casual dude), it's when one player is forwarding his game while free-rolling (or close to it) answers to whatever the other person is doing (Force, Daze, Pierce, Snare, Stifle, etc.), and Misstep is the most obnoxious of all of these offenders by far. Beyond that, Misstep is especially hateful towards creature/tribal decks, which is what a lot of people want to rock anyway.

Legacy began to explode when it appeared the format was about everything; Misstep is another blue card that makes the format about very specific things. And now with StarCity providing the incentive for people to actually figure out what the good decks are, I fear the great, unsolvable mystery that made Legacy so popular is not long for this world.”


QFT!
I'm never in favor of banning stuff but when it means a number of deck become unplayable and doesnt bring anything new to the table I think this banworthy.
Still, it begs the question: what were they thinking when they printed a card like that?

[(nameless one)]

QFT!
I'm never in favor of banning stuff but when it means a number of deck become unplayable and doesnt bring anything new to the table I think this banworthy.
Still, it begs the question: what were they thinking when they printed a card like that?

I guess they were thinking of the "new format" at that time.

Unfortunately, it miserably failed.

[Zilla]

I'd be willing to make that bet. "Dominating Tournaments" is subjective. Are we talking half of every top8?
That's a pretty accurate definition for domination. Name your price.

[SpikeyMikey]

Mystical Tutor was not healthy. Post-ban Storm was probably one of if not the best decks. How is "This deck is only in check because it loses to the other turn 2 combo deck which in turn is a bit more fragile" a healthy state of affairs? I would rather unban Vamp before I unban Mystical, at least there's a chance something other than Reanimator and Storm use the card and it punishes both those decks more (and doesn't pitch to Force).

Survival was not healthy either. That one is 100% unarguable. Didn't kill me on three through my Force/Stifle/etc? Dead, thanks.

No offense, Ari, but storm players ALWAYS think storm is the dead nuts. You guys have a different mentality when it comes to playing the game. You approach it differently. Storm wasn't putting up numbers (in the States at least) and Reanimator was hardly a dominating deck. Tier 1, yes, but not over the top. In fact, I had a much harder time beating ANT post-Mystical because people couldn't rely on Mystical as a crutch. I was running Rock with Extirpates and Mystical was basically my opponent Duressing themselves for me. They pitch a card, I remove an important combo piece from their deck and they didn't even get the card they were looking for.

It's been my experience that storm is usually about half as good as the storm players say it is and slightly better than everyone else thinks it is. People do tend to underestimate storm the same way they do dredge or any other non-traditional deck style; they assume a single hoser card will win them the game automatically and that's not the case.

TooClose: Ugh. I hate Humility. It's a good card, it's just that I tend to play midrange creature decks, Rockish sorts of things, whether I'm in Rock colors or not. And Humility curbstomps the shit out of those kinds of decks. If there is one card that I would burn in effigy, Humility would probably be it. Runners up would be Light of Day and Conversion. Who gave white all the bullshit hoser enchantments anyway?

But yeah, it's effective if you can live long enough to get it down and right now, you can probably live long enough to get it down; the format's pretty damn slow. Plus K Grip has been on the downswing ever since Predator was printed, and now with Pridemage? Nobody plays it. Interestingly enough, Humility does make Batterskull bigger. Might be something there.

[OurSerratedDust]

I've heard some people say that they believe that Wizards wanted to mess up Legacy with MM, so that Modern would be more appealing to players. I'm not sure if I believe it, but with all of the genius things they have done in the past, it isn't completely absurd.

[Koby]

I've heard some people say that they believe that Wizards wanted to mess up Legacy with MM, so that Modern would be more appealing to players. I'm not sure if I believe it, but with all of the genius things they have done in the past, it isn't completely absurd.

This sounds like a conspiracy theory talk to me. If they genuinely wanted to make Modern fly, why would they print Mental Misstep, then ban it. They would rather print cards that would see play (and showcase their awesome design skills), rather than print mistakes and have to cover their asses for lazy design (Blightsteel Colossus).

I think it's just the case that R&D is in need of a shake up, starting with Mark Rosewater being forced into retirement.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

By the argument that they always try to ban the threat and not the answer, and that it's broken anyway, Brainstorm seems more likely to get banned, if anything, before Mental Misstep, although I guess you could argue they were testing the waters in Modern. Still, Misstep would be much weaker in a Bstorm-less metagame.

[CorpT]

I think it's just the case that R&D is in need of a shake up, starting with Mark Rosewater being forced into retirement.

Not before Tom "Great Sable Stag" LaPille.

[OurSerratedDust]

This sounds like a conspiracy theory talk to me. If they genuinely wanted to make Modern fly, why would they print Mental Misstep, then ban it. They would rather print cards that would see play (and showcase their awesome design skills), rather than print mistakes and have to cover their asses for lazy design (Blightsteel Colossus).

I think it's just the case that R&D is in need of a shake up, starting with Mark Rosewater being forced into retirement.

The idea is that they printed MM to slow Legacy down and make it more boring (and not to mention expensive.) People would then get sick of the format and flock to modern.

[Koby]

Not before Tom "Great Sable Stag" LaPille.

I would contend that. Mark is the lead design in charge of multiple "goof" ups recently, namely all the free spells and the return of Poison. I would rather have new mechanics and ideas rather than trying to shoe-horn old ideas that are bad for formats, or just bad ideas in general.

From MaRo's most recent article:

In general I like Phyrexian mana, and I'm the one who moved it from the colorless mana to the colored mana allowing such bleeding to happen. In retrospect I wish we had been a little stingier on what effects we allowed anyone to do at the cost of paying life. (***cough*** Dismember ***cough***)

[DrJones]

The problem is that WotC hires for R&D people that win tournaments, so they pick people that play blue decks, that find no problem in one single deck dominating a format as long as there's skill involved in winning (unless people stop playing the game altogether), and who believe that every top 8 dominated by free counterspells is the very definition of healthy.

The other problem, is that development nerfs anything that could hose blue until it feels "fair" for the blue player. So whenever blue gets out of hand and you build a deck specifically designed to hose it, at most you get a "fair" chance against it. Which is the reason why all the meta against faeries and jace was weak and easy to counter.

At least we got Great Sable Stag to fight mistbind clique, but we will never know if it's actually good against it because the deck rotated out of standard shortly thereafter and even though it's still legal in extended, the only person that actually plays that format prefers to play a Jace deck.

[CorpT]

I would contend that. Mark is the lead design in charge of multiple "goof" ups recently, namely all the free spells and the return of Poison. I would rather have new mechanics and ideas rather than trying to shoe-horn old ideas that are bad for formats, or just bad ideas in general.

From MaRo's most recent article:

Fair enough. Can we agree to both? Holding hands on their way out? :)

IMO, they need a shake-up with at least their FFL. The disaster that was recent Standard is an example of this. Ridiculous statements that Great Sable Stag is an answer to Misstep or using MODO practice rooms to decide bannings shows just how clueless they are when it comes to Legacy.

[SpikeyMikey]

Not before Tom "Great Sable Stag" LaPille.

I'm sorry, were you talking about Tom "Gentlemen's Agreement" LaPille? I get confused so easily.

It would be really easy to blame this on R&D but the fact is they're probably under a lot of pressure to never again produce a Homelands or Mercadian Masques. In general, Wizards is being run less as a friendly company that produces a fun game and more like a serious corporation. For those of you that had any dealings with Saturn before they really became part of GM (back when they were owned by GM but had separate suppliers, designers, etc.), you know what I mean. Saturn was a company, and they were out there to make money, but they hosted annual road rallies, gave tours of the Spring Hill, TN facility to curious customers and generally acted like Wizards of the Coast used to act when they had an Invitational and still gave tours of the Renton, WA facility. Then GM decided that profits weren't good enough, cannibalization of existing GM business was too high, etc. and folded Saturn back into the parent company. And the cars started sucking.

Hasbro probably places a lot of pressure on Wizards not just to be profitable, but to improve every quarter and to prove that they're not leaving money on the table. This is just conjecture, but knowning large companies that I work with in my day-to-day job, making money isn't good enough. You need to be making as much money as you can possibly get away with. So they push the sets trying to make one more exciting than the one before it, and they unload tons of event decks and side products to saturate every segment of the market. If they printed Odyssey today, Wild Mongrel would be a rare, because heavily played commons don't move extra packs, heavily played rares do. In fact, they'd probably call it Kazak, Dog of Terror and make it Mythic and Legendary.

Not to let Tom "Modern card face" LaPille (or MaRo, frankly I've *never* liked MaRo) off the hook here, because he really does say the dumbest things you can imagine, and set design and balance these days is pretty piss poor, but firing all of R&D and hiring fresh faces won't fix the problem as long as there are corporate suits above them crawling up their ass about how the sets need to be impressive and fly off the shelf or they'll be fired.

[Amon Amarth]

I think the main problem is that some colors still get everything, namely Blue, and others are saddled with weak and unpopular mechanics. Red has random coin flipping shit LD which is never going to be good again, temporary mana accel which is only good in combo decks, burns spells (yawn) and other unplayable mechanics. Power creep hasn't caught up to Red.

And it doesn't help when people like Tom Lapille talk about "Gentleman's Agreements" and shit... Despise fixed Jace. Heh.

[HokusSchmokus]

The main problem is that you guys make problems up where , at least internationally is no problem.

[SpikeyMikey]

The main problem is that you guys make problems up where , at least internationally is no problem.

Mmm, but then again, you guys made up a problem with Mystical Tutor in storm where there was, in the States, no problem. :P

[Admiral_Arzar]

Mmm, but then again, you guys made up a problem with Mystical Tutor in storm where there was, in the States, no problem. :P

There was never a problem with Mystical Tutor, except in the mind of Tom Lapille and company :P.

EDIT: Sometimes the European meta adjusts more slowly, also. I.E. Vengevine Survival didn't see much play there for the first few months it was doing well in the states, but it started winning towards the end.

[HokusSchmokus]

There was never a problem with Mystical Tutor, except in the mind of Tom Lapille and company :P.

Same with Vengevival.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Same with Vengevival.

Arguable. Storm and ReAnimator never actually dominated the format, unlike Vengevival. Whether it was actually broken enough to ban is another discussion for another day, but the format domination can't really be argued at this point.

[troopatroop]

That's a pretty accurate definition for domination. Name your price.

I'd say 3/8 of a Top-8 (on average) is dominant. SFM will easily be in 6 decks of a top16 on average. 1 Bajilion dollars.

[Zilla]

I'd say 3/8 of a Top-8 (on average) is dominant. SFM will easily be in 6 decks of a top16 on average. 1 Bajilion dollars.
4 decks out of the top 8 of every sanctioned tournament with over 100 players for at least 2 consecutive months at the end of the one year period, starting today. 100 dollars cash. Deal?

[troopatroop]

If you want to discuss terms, it can be done in a private message. Obviously I don't agree to those terms, because I do believe "The" SFM deck will be worked out, and that there will decks that can put 5 in a top-8. My point was that SFM is cleeearly the best strategy right now, and everyones playing their own brew on that, and it's stale. I'll restate, that 3/8 is dominance. I like the bet, because SFM decks can put 6/8 into top-8 with its different forms. Really ask yourself, if you want that format for the rest of time. I personally think Batterskull is Ez-mode, and am tired of it already.

[jamesh]

whether it is dominant at the moment, SFM will remain - like tinker waited for BSC in vintage - quieting waiting for wizards to print an even bigger, more nasty equipment
its cheating into play ability will forever be problematic in legacy - not quite bad enough to be banned, but always effective

[Zilla]

If you want to discuss terms, it can be done in a private message. Obviously I don't agree to those terms, because I do believe "The" SFM deck will be worked out, and that there will decks that can put 5 in a top-8. My point was that SFM is cleeearly the best strategy right now, and everyones playing their own brew on that, and it's stale.
If it's really that clear, isn't it odd that NO RUG is considered by many to be the strongest deck in the format right now?

[troopatroop]

If it's really that clear, isn't it odd that NO RUG is considered by many to be the strongest deck in the format right now?

NO RUG is definitely strong, but it's like Aggro-Combo. It doesn't want SFM, because Progenitus just wins.

For the decks that aren't based around Natural Order, winning isn't so easy, but SFM makes it very easy. For any deck that can't win on the spot, is there any reason not to play SFM? I'm beginning to think that there isn't. I personally don't think Natural Order is holy grail of Legacy, and that there's better out there. NO-RUG's strength is that it can Kill your stuff, Hold out, and Win with NO. It's probably just as busted as SFM, I mean look what's winning. If anything, Natural Order makes SFM look fair, but they're both the best threats in Legacy. If Merfolk hadn't gotten Dismember to stop Batterskulls, I bet there would be alot more whining.

[GGoober]

If it's really that clear, isn't it odd that NO RUG is considered by many to be the strongest deck in the format right now?

Zilla, according to Troop, Wild Nacatl's underrated and is supposedly stronger than NO, which is a 2-card combo that is assembled in the mid-late game and not necessarily win you the game. Since SFM is for most parts better than Wild Nacatl, it'll be hard to argue with him that NORUG is in fact the DTB, and is possibly putting out stronger numbers than SFM-based decks (the Hatfields even did an article on this).

[Tammit67]

Dear Bryant Cook/Liam Cane/Ari Lax/Mark Tocco,
Make people realize SFM isn't nearly as busted as good ole' storm. I can only cover so much ground.

Sincerely,
Matthew Bevenour

[Zilla]

NO RUG is definitely strong, but it's like Aggro-Combo. It doesn't want SFM, because Progenitus just wins.
My point was that SFM isn't clearly the best strategy, because there's another strategy that's doing just as well or better.

SFM is certainly one of the best strategies in the format, but I maintain that the tools are absolutely available to beat it and still do well against the rest of the field. It's just a matter of time before the metagame adapts to and exploits its current prevalence.

[troopatroop]

Zilla, according to Troop, Wild Nacatl's underrated and is supposedly stronger than NO, which is a 2-card combo that is assembled in the mid-late game and not necessarily win you the game. Since SFM is for most parts better than Wild Nacatl, it'll be hard to argue with him that NORUG is in fact the DTB, and is possibly putting out stronger numbers than SFM-based decks (the Hatfields even did an article on this).

Put a whole bunch of words in my mouth. I'll take it as a compliment.

Natural Order isn't playing fair! It's an oops I win card for 4 mana. 1 card, this is why it's good.

This is also why SFM is good. They're both ridiculous, and define the DTB. That was SO HARD TO ADMIT FOR ME.

I do think Wild Nacatl is a better strategy than Natural Order, but in a deck that can STOP N.O. It's about as fast, but cheap.

SFM is the best strategy in fair, board oriented decks. So, in the kind of magic that Wizards wants us to play, it's the best card.

Honestly, I'm entitled to my own opinion. Wild Nacatl is next level Legacy, imo. I like the 3/3 for 1.

[Tammit67]

I do think Wild Nacatl is a better strategy than Natural Order, but in a deck that can STOP N.O. It's about as fast, but cheap.

SFM is the best strategy in fair, board oriented decks. So, in the kind of magic that Wizards wants us to play, it's the best card.

Honestly, I'm entitled to my own opinion. Wild Nacatl is next level Legacy, imo. I like the 3/3 for 1.

I'd be willing to say zoo is a fine deck to go against NO RUG, from my personal experience. (How much flame will I get from this i wonder)

[Koby]

Dear Bryant Cook/Liam Cane/Ari Lax/Mark Tocco,
Make people realize SFM isn't nearly as busted as good ole' storm. I can only cover so much ground.

Sincerely,
Matthew Bevenour

Better question - can a storm combo deck dominate in a metagame stifled by MM?

[troopatroop]

Better question - can a storm combo deck dominate in a metagame stifled by MM?

No, it cannot dominate! People new to storm are like OMG, it's the best deck! Then they get sat down in tournaments.


and they go AAAWWWWWWWW!!!!! Force of Will?!?! Damnit man, he always has it!!!

[dontbiteitholmes]

Better question - can a storm combo deck dominate in a metagame stifled by MM?

Thank god no. If storm could dominate in a metagame defined by decks with MD SpellStutter Sprite, Force, Misstep, Vendillion Clique and fast clocks or the supposed best combo deck playing 4x Leylines SB and a fistful of counters something would be wrong. Those seem like nightmare matchups for storm. There are viable combo decks, but I don't see storm being particularly playable right now.

For everyone saying the format is not healthy, it is obviously still adjusting. Why don't you guys wait until a couple more big events pass before you go declaring the decks that trumped the deck you were declaring broken a month ago to be broken.

[Amon Amarth]

I think that Stoneblade variants, mostly U/W, will stop seeing as much play as they are experiencing right now. NO RUG has a pretty solid matchup against them and has brutal cards to bring in against them like Grip/Grudge/Trygon and REB. Decks like Zoo seem to have a pretty good matchup against U/W as well because of how much removal they run and a turn 5 Batterskull, at best, isn't scary.

[Einherjer]

I dont know what problems you guys have... Just brew your own deck like i did.... My Mono-Blue-Control R.I.Ps NO-RUG. Just do what MTG was supposed to be... Build a deck you like, play the deck you like....


+ Im from Austria, south of Germany, Europe. In our local group there is no dominating deck... So i dont know what problems you guys have..


Greetings and Godspeed

[DrJones]

I dont know what problems you guys have... Just brew your own deck like i did.... My Mono-Blue-Control R.I.Ps NO-RUG. Just do what MTG was supposed to be... Build a deck you like, play the deck you like....


+ Im from Austria, south of Germany, Europe. In our local group there is no dominating deck... So i dont know what problems you guys have..


Greetings and GodspeedThe problem is that the dominating deck is "blue shell + anything", which each player tunes to beat the mirror by adding their choice of creatures, or a combo kill of their choice, and then puts a fancy name on it.

[menace13]

The problem is that the dominating deck is "blue shell + anything", which each player tunes to beat the mirror by adding their choice of creatures, or a combo kill of their choice, and then puts a fancy name on it.
Ban Islands and free Counterspells NAO!!

[dontbiteitholmes]

The problem is that the dominating deck is "blue shell + anything", which each player tunes to beat the mirror by adding their choice of creatures, or a combo kill of their choice, and then puts a fancy name on it.

Here let me help you... http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?72-Modern

PTFO

[Admiral_Arzar]

Here let me help you... http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?72-Modern

PTFO

Haters gonna hate, bro. He may be DrJones, but he's strangely right in this case.

[Fl0do]

I don't feel, that blue is too strong. It is necessary and good players can play around counters etc.

You might have recognized, since Legacy is getting more attention, the metagame shifts faster than before. Best example the Star City Opens. First there was Merfolk the best strategy, then Zoo, then Junk, then Solidarity, then Hivemind/Show&Tell and now Stoneblade and NO RUG. The Decks to beat never ever changed that fast as in the last 6, 7 months.

People don't innovate anymore, they see the weekly decklists and either copy it or are complaining how the metagame sucks.

I mean there are enough strategies which are promising against the blue "dominance" (I would call it 'some blue decks as usual'). Goblins didn't really changed since Lorwyn I think and have really some space for innovation in my opinion, Life from the Loam was the weapon of choice some (2?) years ago and why does nearly nobody tweak on some innovative fast Zoo/Sligh-Lists? With counterbalance gone you should give that a try, am I right?

And some flame: In Germany, someone wrote an article years ago, called "Why do bad players hate blue?". The article is still up to date ... (I can give you the link, but I won't translate it)

And personally I think it is good that blue got what it has got, because combo is lurking everywhere. Without those card we would play solitaire. I for one learned Magic the Gathering as a game of interaction between at least two players, and this is a good thing.

My suggestion for the next banned list update: whiners and moaners and unban more countermagic

[dontbiteitholmes]

The problem isn't so much that blue is overpowered, it's just that most of the good players play blue because it will always beat the random decks you tend to face early in the event. Mental Misstep is a great card for the format because it gave everyone who doesn't play blue exactly what they've been asking for for years. A card that non-blue players can play that beats random combo decks. I mean any deck can stick 4x Misstep in the sideboard and increase their storm combo matchup %, and their PainterStone matchup, and their Reanimator matchup, ect. Put this on the back of a fast clock and many decks become viable again. Right now the solution to that has been Aggro-Control decks that drop huge creatures or 4/4 lifelinking vigilance equipments turn 3-4. But look at the Hatfield brothers who have had quite a bit of success playing Zoo. If more good players committed to non-blue decks things would be much different. Innistrad is likely going to be a graveyard set, so it's possible that will affect blue somewhat in the end.

[Nonex]

I'm getting more and more convinced that Summoning Trap is one of the most underrated cards in the format. Since I play Eldrazi Food Chain it's obviously easy for me to break it, but I feel that more creature decks, fair or not, should give it a try.

[Spike]

Oh come on - whats up with you guys? Natural Order is such an old card and it has been played for years now. Why all this excitement suddenly? There are so many decks out there that can beat both, Stoneblade and No RUG. Just because all the people at the SCG Open wanted to give the decks a try doesn't mean they are overpowered or something like that.

Have a look at Canadian Thresh for example: It's one of the oldest decks in the history of Legacy and it's still one of the best even though there are not many people playing the deck anymore. It's certainly not an easy deck to play with unlike No RUG but if played correctly by a good player it has at least an even matchup against Stoneblade and No RUG.

It's impossible to draw any conclusions from this top16. Just wait some weeks, support and promote this wonderful format and don't stab it in the back. I enjoy playing the format as it is now.

For reference, have a look at every top8 with more than 50 participants on the Council in the past month and you'll see how diverse the format still is at the moment.

[dan who?]

The problem isn't so much that blue is overpowered, it's just that most of the good players play blue because it will always beat the random decks you tend to face early in the event. Mental Misstep is a great card for the format because it gave everyone who doesn't play blue exactly what they've been asking for for years. A card that non-blue players can play that beats random combo decks. I mean any deck can stick 4x Misstep in the sideboard and increase their storm combo matchup %, and their PainterStone matchup, and their Reanimator matchup, ect. Put this on the back of a fast clock and many decks become viable again. Right now the solution to that has been Aggro-Control decks that drop huge creatures or 4/4 lifelinking vigilance equipments turn 3-4. But look at the Hatfield brothers who have had quite a bit of success playing Zoo. If more good players committed to non-blue decks things would be much different. Innistrad is likely going to be a graveyard set, so it's possible that will affect blue somewhat in the end.

IBA said the same thing back in May about sticking Mental Misstep in non-blue decks.



Some day people are going to grow testicles and just put Mental Misstep in non-blue decks, and then everyone can be happy.

Found it in this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20995-Blue-needs-a-Nerf&p=553746&viewfull=1#post553746

[clavio]

Skimmed the thread....

I just want to say that I don't think SFM is nearly as strong as Lackey was back in the day. An unanswered lackey swinging into a non combo deck was almost always game winning.

If you let the SFM player cheat a batterskull into play the game is far from over. If you manage to destroy the batterskull (or duress it out before it comes into play) the SFM player is left with a very pedestrian 1/2. Yes, SFM can potentially cheat in more equipment but by that point in the game it seems...fair. Running maindeck artifact destruction may seem format warping but running things like discard, Putrefy and Quasali Path Mage seem fine.

[xfxf]

I have gone through the top 16 decklists in SCG open reports since June (one had only the top8). There are 156 decks and 51 different archetypes. The average is 3 so looking at the decks above average yields the following:

Merfolk 23
NO RUG 15
UW Blade Control 13
Team America 10
Zoo 9
Reanimator 6
Painted Stone 5
U/W Control 5 (Without the SFM/Batterskull package)
B/W Discard 4
Dredge 4
Metalworker 4

Even with the spike of NO RUG and Blade Control decks in the last scg open Merfolk is far ahead by a great margin.

I think these two decks are doing well and give people the impression that most of the other decks are becoming non-viable because the more serious players are heavily metagaming and picking these decks up in greater numbers. Simple Burn decks are tough matchups for these decks and if people started coming to the events with Burn the food chain would balance so to speak :)

If the format is slowed down due to Mental Misstep and combo decks aren't very dominant, well tuned aggro-control decks like NO RUG and Blade control is sure to succeed. If people aren't showing up with fast aggro decks like Zoo and Burn enough in such an environment it doesn't mean that MM or SFM broke the format. It means that people are slow to adapt to the metagame changes.

[oRen]

Storm and ReAnimator never actually dominated the format, unlike Vengevival. Whether it was actually broken enough to ban is another discussion for another day, but the format domination can't really be argued at this point.

You sure do not live in Europe and never played here.

Anyway the general level of both Mystical decks was way above any Vengevine deck. The decks were incredibly easy to play and incredibly hard to beat as both usually finished the game on turn 2 with backup.
Having that said - banning Mystical was alright while banning Survival was completely unnecessary.

You Americans seem to be pretty ignorant when comes to adopt European decks. You just look at your Top8s and then everyone chooses one of the three decks which have done well in the past month in your shitty "metagame".

Also regarding the general discussion ... Legacy will always stay a healthy format because you got a lot of options to choose from. There are answers for everything.
The only thing which corrupts the format and make it "unhealthy" are narrow minded people.

[SpikeyMikey]

You sure do not live in Europe and never played here.

Anyway the general level of both Mystical decks was way above any Vengevine deck. The decks were incredibly easy to play and incredibly hard to beat as both usually finished the game on turn 2 with backup.
Having that said - banning Mystical was alright while banning Survival was completely unnecessary.

You Americans seem to be pretty ignorant when comes to adopt European decks. You just look at your Top8s and then everyone chooses one of the three decks which have done well in the past month in your shitty "metagame".

Also regarding the general discussion ... Legacy will always stay a healthy format because you got a lot of options to choose from. There are answers for everything.
The only thing which corrupts the format and make it "unhealthy" are narrow minded people.

And you've obviously never played with Extirpate, which made both matchups byes almost single-handedly.

It's undeniable that European and American metas are completely different at all times. This is a function, I think, of Europeans being more enamored of combo decks and Americans being more enamored of control. I also, as an aside, think that's the major reason why Vintage is so much more popular in Europe than in the US (along with the stronger Euro). But fields are largely self-defining. When Legacy was brand new, first split off the T1 B/R list, there were 3 distinct metagames, an East Coast meta, a West Coast meta and a Dallas/Southwest meta. East Coast was dominated by various Survival variants (ATS, RGSA and WeldSur). Southwest was dominated by U/G Madness and West Coast was dominated by Zoo (primarily) and Deedstill. A deck from a different meta would have a hard time making an impression in any of those metas because of the level of saturation of the popular deck in a given area. I know this because we had an ATS player in San Diego and there were a couple of players playing Zoo on the East Coast. Results weren't that great for either.

When you've got decks within 10-15 percentage points of each other in matchups, you're going to see the more populous deck win a significant portion of the time. Because even if you're 60% against the field, that means your local 5 round tourney you're going 3-2, on average. It took a long time for a homogenization of the metas and if you really look at the results from SCG Opens, you can see that there is still a lot of regionalism going on. People attribute it to shifting metas, but by studying the breakdowns of events in cities that have had multiple Opens this year, you can see that some decks are just more popular in some areas, despite whatever current trends may be.

Because there are so few events that see competitive play between top American players and top European players (basically the 2 GP's a year), I don't think you'll ever see a homogenization of American and European metas. Europe will, for the foreseeable future, be more combo heavy and America, for the foreseeable future, will be more control heavy. I'm not saying it will never change, but historically, that's been how it works.

[oRen]

And you've obviously never played with Extirpate, which made both matchups byes almost single-handedly.

Extirpate in general was crap versus that ANT build. The card did literally nothing ...
1 Extirpate is was never enough to win versus Reanimator. Also the tight player may search for a Thoughtseize instead of running into an extirpate.

Extirpate tended to beat Vengevine based decks and yet NONE played it when everyone lost to the deck.

Wait ... what ?!


Also arguing with stuff from 10 years ago does not seem reasonable. Also you did not really reply to my statement. You just tried to nitpick on something [and obviously failed].
Generally I am pretty sure a lot of the decks which see play over here like GW, Sneak and Tell or Doomsday would do really well in the US "metagame" if piloted well.

[CorpT]

Having that said - banning Mystical was alright while banning Survival was completely unnecessary.

You Americans seem to be pretty ignorant when comes to adopt European decks.

You sure do not live in America and never played here.

I really find this hysterical. Why did EMEA have Storm/Reanimator dominate, but America did not, while America had VengevineSurvival dominate, but EMEA did not?

Obviously, the other guy got it wrong, right?

[oRen]

I really find this hysterical. Why did EMEA have Storm/Reanimator dominate, but America did not, while America had VengevineSurvival dominate, but EMEA did not?

The point is ...
Reanimator/ANT was not/rarely played in the US while dominating Europe.
Vengevine was commonly played in Europe and NOT dominating the metagame while dominating the US.

But I know ... USA USA USA USA USA !!!!1

[TooCloseToTheSun]

The point is ...
Reanimator/ANT was not/rarely played in the US while dominating Europe.
Vengevine was commonly played in Europe and NOT dominating the metagame while dominating the US.

But I know ... USA USA USA USA USA !!!!1

There is no way that vengevival saw the amount of play in Europe that it saw at the SCG 5k's here. I mean that deck was on auto-pilot, any one could win with it. And the rest of the people were still playing goblins and other shitty decks that had terrible match-ups against vengevival. They would 0-2 drop and demand survival be banned. I really wished I could have gone to more 5k's when vengevival was the meta, extirpate was so good against it.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Extirpate in general was crap versus that ANT build. The card did literally nothing ...
1 Extirpate is was never enough to win versus Reanimator. Also the tight player may search for a Thoughtseize instead of running into an extirpate.
.

I guess you missed this line of play:

1. Mystical Tutor for *insert card here*
2. Extirpate *insert whatever is in graveyard here*
3. You bastard. You just shuffled my library, functionally countered my apparently broken tutor, and possibly fucked up my strategy for one black mana.

[CorpT]

There is no way that vengevival saw the amount of play in Europe that it saw at the SCG 5k's here. I mean that deck was on auto-pilot, any one could win with it. And the rest of the people were still playing goblins and other shitty decks that had terrible match-ups against vengevival. They would 0-2 drop and demand survival be banned. I really wished I could have gone to more 5k's when vengevival was the meta, extirpate was so good against it.

This.

Vengevival was amazing. If you couldn't win with it, you were doing something seriously wrong. I cannot believe that it saw as much play in Europe as it did here.

But I know, the US is just fat, stupid, lazy people, right?

[JamieW89]

There is no way that vengevival saw the amount of play in Europe that it saw at the SCG 5k's here. I mean that deck was on auto-pilot, any one could win with it. And the rest of the people were still playing goblins and other shitty decks that had terrible match-ups against vengevival. They would 0-2 drop and demand survival be banned. I really wished I could have gone to more 5k's when vengevival was the meta, extirpate was so good against it.

It was never played as much here as in the states, but it was fairly popular. At the dutch legacy nationals last year for example Vengevival was the second most popular deck (behind goblins).
But there was a reason for the deck being played less. Storm ruled our metagame (forever until misstep basicly), and Storm beat Vengevival.

[kiblast]

This.

Vengevival was amazing. If you couldn't win with it, you were doing something seriously wrong. I cannot believe that it saw as much play in Europe as it did here.

But I know, the US is just fat, stupid, lazy people, right?

I Extirpated hundreds of Vengevines months ago with UWb Landstill. I don't know if it was underplayed, surely in my meta you could find at least 4-5 players playing various versions of VengeVival in every 50-60players tournament I attended. Anyway, I'm sure people here started metagaming against Vengie even before they ever saw it in local tournaments, just by watching SCG top16's. Everybody here knew it was huge, so everybody understood it was better not to be unprepared and started hating it.

Months after...many players still argue about the playability/importance of a crucial sb card like Extirpate. You are doing it wrong.

[SpikeyMikey]

I guess you missed this line of play:

1. Mystical Tutor for *insert card here*
2. Extirpate *insert whatever is in graveyard here*
3. You bastard. You just shuffled my library, functionally countered my apparently broken tutor, and possibly fucked up my strategy for one black mana.

This. And by telegraphing what they needed by revealing it with M. Tutor, they told you exactly what to take out of their yard. Did they Mystical for Dark Ritual? Extirpate the Cabal Ritual in their yard. They Mysticaled for Ad Nauseam? They obviously have the mana then and you Extirpate Brainstorm. I had 3 Extirpates main in my Rock deck back then and it ate up and shit out AnT listings like that was it's job. Discard backed up with Extirpate and mana denial?

[oRen]

Discard backed up with Extirpate and mana denial?
... will never be enough to constantly win versus a skilled combo player. proven fact.

---

You people pretending that Extirpate won/wins versus ANT made my day and because you seem to really believe it I had to laugh even harder. Maybe because of that ridicules hoaxes the hole archetype in constantly underplayed in your country ...

The only thing the old build lost to was to was Extirpate on Tendrils. Anything else only bought you some turns at maximum. You still need to make me lose the game in any way after making me shuffle my library and taking away my fast mana, tutor, brainstorm or whatever. You cant disrupt and beat me at the same time ...

Pretending that Extirpate wins versus combo decks is close to pretending that Force of Will wins versus combo decks. Not entirely wrong but one or two of them will most likely NOT win the game.

[clavio]

... will never be enough to constantly win versus a skilled combo player. proven fact.

---

You people



Proven fact? Where was this PROVEN? Discard+Mana Denial+Fast Clock is certainly a good way to go about fighting combo. Yes, sometimes they have the stone cold nuts, but when they don't wasteland + thoughtseize can really fuck up their day.

You don't need to constantly beat combo. Taking 2/3 is more than sufficient.

Also, hole != whole.

[oRen]

Proven fact? Where was this PROVEN? Discard+Mana Denial+Fast Clock is certainly a good way to go about fighting combo. Yes, sometimes they have the stone cold nuts, but when they don't wasteland + thoughtseize can really fuck up their day.

You don't need to constantly beat combo. Taking 2/3 is more than sufficient.
None talked about a fast clock until this point. And what you mean with fast clock ? Turn 4 Tombstalker + anything else which still needs until turn 6 or 7 to kill me ?

Proven fact is that you can easily play around discard by using your cantrips properly.
Proven fact is that if you do not disrupt that Mystical ANT turn 1 you will be most likely dead on turn 2.
...

The whole argumentation which developed out of my statements is hilarious. Three people trying to convince someone who played combodecks for several years that discard should usually beat him. Apart from discard + counters I am pretty sure that I have won more than 80% of the games against decks which let me discard cards to disrupt me ...



Also, hole != whole.
Shit like this is pretty retarded. I am able to speak proper English; there is one typo in about one hundred words and yet you feel forced to nitpick. Get a real life.

---

The whole discussion seems extremely strange to me. My main statement was that metagames get unhealthy because of ignorant people. Somehow I feel like this gets more and more confirmed by you guys while the discussion goes on ...

[Admiral_Arzar]

Three people trying to convince someone who played combodecks for several years that discard should usually beat him. Apart from discard + counters I am pretty sure that I have won more than 80% of the games against decks which let me discard cards to disrupt me ...




I have also played combo decks for years, and never did I state that Extirpate + Discard alone beats them. My argument was with your statement that Extirpate was awful against Mystical Tutor, which is a fallacy, as Extirpate is actually insane against it. Will it win you the game? Probably not alone, but it's certainly a good answer for the tutor itself.

[SpikeyMikey]

Proven fact is that you can easily play around discard by using your cantrips properly.
Proven fact is that if you do not disrupt that Mystical ANT turn 1 you will be most likely dead on turn 2.


As I've said before, storm players always overrate combo. ANT *rarely* killed turn 2. Turn 3 was much more common. And if you Mysticaled on turn 1 to set up a turn 2 win, that means you didn't Brainstorm to hide your cards from Thoughtseize. We can play the "oh yeah, well if you x, I'll y" game all fucking day, but I've got better things to do with my time. The point is that it was my experience and the experience of others that Extirpate royally fucked up Mystical Tutor decks. Your meta is not in any way superior (or inferior, for that matter) to the US meta, it's just different. A lot of that is inertial, like I said before, saturation of a deck tends to lead to that deck's success.

If your tournament has 10 decks and 4 rounds, 9 copies of deck x and 1 copy of deck y, and deck y is 60% against the field (a very good matchup, VV Survival was 60% against the field when it got banned), deck y will win a whopping 1 time every 8 tournaments on average. So despite Y being the best deck, X will look dominating. That's what you see with combo in Europe and with control in the US. Not to those extremes of course, but the dominating presence of storm in Europe (and really it was more centered around the north Atlantic; I didn't hear much about its dominance in western Russia or Spain or anything like that) is not because storm (or Mystical Tutor as it were) was the best deck, but simply because of heavy meta saturation. Solutions existed to Reanimator and Storm, but they were not played in sufficient numbers to make an impact on the format.

[ddt15]

IMO, Misstep is definetly one of the most obnoxious blue cards ever.

And the best strategy is simply blue core + random efficient kill.

The blue core makes sure you will be able to stop the opponent from developing his game plan, regardless which strategy he is playing, and also makes sure you will get your efficient kill together rather quickly.

From that point of view there really isn't much difference between Hive Mind, NO Rug, Stoneblade, Reanimator,... They are all named after the combo/kill cards but those are not really the important cards at all.

Also I don't understand why some people seem to get a hardon from blue being by far the best color (which it obv already was prior to MM), only seem to enjoy playing blue vs blue mirrors, and bitch about anyone playing another color as a main color.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Also I don't understand why some people seem to get a hardon from blue being by far the best color (which it obv already was prior to MM), only seem to enjoy playing blue vs blue mirrors, and bitch about anyone playing another color as a main color.

There is a mentality held by some players that blue/control is a superior strategy/the strategy good players should play, and that others are inferior. While this is of course not held by a lot of players, there are plenty who think along such lines. I'd hazard a guess that many of those arguing most vehemently for maintaining the blue-dominated status quo right now think in such a fashion.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

When blue wasn't as strong in the old days of Legacy, 05-08ish, there was a not insignificant contingent of people, mainly Vintage players, who complained that the fact that blue wasn't dominant- it was still one of if not the most played color, but just the fact that it wasn't dominant- was a sign of the format's "immaturity," so yes, I wager there's still a number of people that basically think the format should be defined by blue.

[troopatroop]

There is a mentality held by some players that blue/control is a superior strategy/the strategy good players should play, and that others are inferior. While this is of course not held by a lot of players, there are plenty who think along such lines. I'd hazard a guess that many of those arguing most vehemently for maintaining the blue-dominated status quo right now think in such a fashion.

I don't understand why people hate on blue. What blue really needs is a way to win. Blue has the best weapons over the stack, and while the free counters are good cards, they'll never be truly broken cards. They'll only ever stop the broken things from happening, which is fine. SFM and Natural Order make winning with the blue core too easy, because Tarmogoyf could do it, but he dies to STP. Dark Confidant can't attack through anything. What legacy is seeing now in this rise of blue, is only aknowledgement that 1 card win conditions are amazing with Blue. That's it.

[TheKingslayer]

Ummm... They just made double-faced cards. All is well. We can stop our picketing a go home.

[dan who?]

Ummm... They just made double-faced cards. All is well. We can stop our picketing a go home.

It turns out Tom "Gentlemen's Agreement" LaPille thought of the double-faced cards so maybe we shouldn't be so quick to drop our pitchforks.

[TheKingslayer]

Tom Lapille... who would have thought? They must be running out of ideas.

[Koby]

Tom Lapille... who would have thought? They must be running out of ideas.

I used to think that Mark Rosewater was the cause of all problems. Now I know it's just Tom "Looks what I found from Duel Masters" Lapille.

[Whit3 Ghost]

When blue wasn't as strong in the old days of Legacy, 05-08ish, there was a not insignificant contingent of people, mainly Vintage players, who complained that the fact that blue wasn't dominant- it was still one of if not the most played color, but just the fact that it wasn't dominant- was a sign of the format's "immaturity," so yes, I wager there's still a number of people that basically think the format should be defined by blue.
I remember Lapille as one of that contingent's strongest voices, especially post Flash ban. What a weird dynamic, considering the whole gentleman's agreement thing.

Also, I think part of the reason for Blue eking out a bigger piece of the pie is the banning of Survival.

[SpikeyMikey]

Don't let MaRo off the hook, Ruckus. While everyone knows I love to blame everything on LaPille, MaRo is pretty retarded too. He's a collector first and foremost, not a gamer. So when they spend their time on aesthetics and flavor and design the cards around those aspects instead of designing good mechanics and finding flavor to fit, you can thank Mr. Rosewater. It's a one-two punch of dumb and dumber.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

That's so funny. As soon i saw the picture of the Innistrad design team on maro's column, I just intuitively knew that it was Maro and LaPille who came up with this "wonderful" idea. sigh.

Seriously how healthy are things?

Standard you have bannings, sanctioned proxies or a "you must play with $6 sleeves" rule. Extended is now the red-headed stepchild sent off to live with uncle. Modern hasn't even started and is already too expensive for anyone to play. Legacy has been made stale by a certain non-sensical banning and yet another free counterspell.

I'm just glad that the game's being run by professionals who know what they're doing.

[aahz]

That's so funny. As soon i saw the picture of the Innistrad design team on maro's column, I just intuitively knew that it was Maro and LaPille who came up with this "wonderful" idea. sigh.

Seriously how healthy are things?

Standard you have bannings, sanctioned proxies or a "you must play with $6 sleeves" rule. Extended is now the red-headed stepchild sent off to live with uncle. Modern hasn't even started and is already too expensive for anyone to play. Legacy has been made stale by a certain non-sensical banning and yet another free counterspell.

I'm just glad that the game's being run by professionals who know what they're doing.
That's why I play Vintage. There are even multiple competitive non-blue strategies (though obviously blue is still the best deck (and there are multiple ways to play blue, too)). It's awesome, at least in theory. Now finding someone to actually play with...that's another story. I find it quite heartening that Vintage is at least putting up a fight in that other thread (V vs. M). Cheers to all the other Type :1: enthusiasts!

Edit: Legacy does seem pretty boring these days. What's up with that?

[Zombie]

Seriously how healthy are things?

Standard you have bannings, sanctioned proxies or a "you must play with $6 sleeves" rule. Extended is now the red-headed stepchild sent off to live with uncle. Modern hasn't even started and is already too expensive for anyone to play. Legacy has been made stale by a certain non-sensical banning and yet another free counterspell.

I'm just glad that the game's being run by professionals who know what they're doing.

It's why I play Pauper. Last format that feels like what Magic used to feel like. Clear aggro, combo and control decks, multicolour is possible but you have to pay for it (in game, not money terms), few NO-esque "I win" buttons that can be shoved anywhere. Decks are built on actual strategies, not just piles of "good stuff".

(My other format, German Highlander, is admittedly Goodstuff.format, but that should start reversing itself with some noncreature-supporting unbans. And the 100-card singleton nature of the format just captures a bit of that elusive something from the earlier days when I had just started.)

WotC's official formats are dreadfully uninteresting for me, though. Every now and then, something seems somewhat interesting but it's just too fucking expensive to play with all the speculation spiking prices to high heaven.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

That's so funny. As soon i saw the picture of the Innistrad design team on maro's column, I just intuitively knew that it was Maro and LaPille who came up with this "wonderful" idea. sigh.

Seriously how healthy are things?

Standard you have bannings, sanctioned proxies or a "you must play with $6 sleeves" rule. Extended is now the red-headed stepchild sent off to live with uncle. Modern hasn't even started and is already too expensive for anyone to play. Legacy has been made stale by a certain non-sensical banning and yet another free counterspell.

I'm just glad that the game's being run by professionals who know what they're doing.

Who the fuck pissed in your corn flakes?
Seriously do you know anyone who doesn't play with sleeves already? Everyone hated extended and the new modern is a way better format. You think it is too expensive? It is less to buy into that format than it was to buy into standard before the Jace banning. And don't get me started on legacy. I am having more fun playing this format than ever before. We finally have an established meta game that keeps shifting keeping it fresh, and we are getting mad support from Star City. What is wrong with that.

[CorpT]

Who the fuck pissed in your corn flakes?

Tom LaPille.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Tom LaPille.

I lol'd

[The Big Ragu]

Legacy just isn't the same without Goblins and High Tide being at least semi top tier decks. Misstep needs to go.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Legacy seems to be play broken blue cards (Brainstorm, FOW, Mental Misstep) and the either play additional disruption with stoneforger mystic/Natural Order or combo. I feel the reason this has happened is because the only way to interact with all the decks out there, you need to either play counterspells or thoughtseize. Natural Order into Progenitus, Stoneforger into Batterskull, and Show and Tell into Emrakul are all difficult to deal with after the spells resolve, and have no chaff spells like alluren, ceph breakfast, or protean hulk decks do. I would like to see wizards unban a few cards to allow non blue strategies to compete. I think it would open up the format. I think Earthcraft, Goblin Recruiter, Mind Twist can all be unbanned. I don't like banning Mental Misstep because it isn't broken, it just has warped the format into an undesirable spot in my opinion. The sign of a unhealthy format to me is when I looked at NoRUG results and decide that there is no use testing new decks because there isn't a deck that is as consistently good as that one.

[Dan Turner]

I am not sure about other areas but I know around me and about 150 or so miles around me Legacy is dead.

Most of the people that were playing decided that when their deck was worth more then the cost of a good car to sell. I know a lot of the legacy crowd sold out thinking it was a bubble that was going to burst so they could buy back in when it popped...well it hasn't popped. I think once Modern hits full swing it is going to hurt Legacy even more. Any format that sees the core decks costing $1000-$2000 each is doomed unless there is someway to lower them cost or to be able to win enough to at least have a decent return on investment. I no longer see players wanting to get into and play Legacy for fun, what I am seeing though are people grabbing up every legacy single they can so they can resale when the price gets higher.

When it becomes a spectators game instead of a players game that is when a format is going to die out, maybe not overnight but slowly. You are going to get these players who play legacy casually and then all of a sudden need a tire or to buy diapers or something and sell 1 card to cover it. Then the next thing comes along and eventually they have sold their collection. In this economy Legacy is going to see a lot of attrition due to people needing to live.

I know I have done it, to finance my business everything I had more then four of for Legacy I sold off. Stuff I wouldn't use anywhere other the EDH I kept 2 of and sold the rest. I went from about 300k plus cards to under 5k cards over about the last year. It makes my wife happy, she plays but she is always telling me who the hell needs a full closet of cards. She can now put her stuff in the closet too.

Magic is a game that was designed for a crowd of kids aged 8-18 or so. It has become this massive complicated multi-format interactive stock market. I know guys who spend there who day on MTGO buying and selling just to brag at the end of the day that they made 40 tickets in 6 hours without having to spend anything...I think this is sad these same people could make much more flipping burgers. They do not see it that way. I have a friend who claims buying and selling magic cards is his career. I asked how much he made last year and he tells me it is not how much he made but how much his portfolio is worth compared at the start of the year. I slapped him right across the face. I told him a portfolio is stocks, hedge funds, and government bonds not Tarmogoyfs and dual lands.


I honestly wish they would drop the reprint policy. Make a new one, any card that is banned or restricted in any format is on that list. If the banned/restricted list changes so does the reprint list. Then turn around and make a paper masters edition of Legacy/Modern staples every year. I bet there are easily enough commons/uncommons and rares/Mythics to rotate out the rares and have a core base that everyone needs every year. It would boost the popularity of Legacy and Modern all at once.

[catmint]

As mentioned in the early pages of the thread, the real culprit is not SFM, NO, Show & Tell or MM, but brainstorm. Without brainstorm the blue shell would loose the by far best filter spell and the power level (consistenty) of the blue based control/aggro control/combo strategies would be reduced significantly.

It would be more fair in terms of even color pie, however myself and many others love to cast brainstorms, because it is a very skill intensive card.

My comment to MM: Slowing the format down very successfully. If that is good or not is probably a matter of taste. I personally would like to see more combo in legacy...!

Concerning SFM: The card was already very good enough... Printing batterskull was a mistake I think.

[GGoober]

As mentioned in the early pages of the thread, the real culprit is not SFM, NO, Show & Tell or MM, but brainstorm. Without brainstorm the blue shell would loose the by far best filter spell and the power level (consistenty) of the blue based control/aggro control/combo strategies would be reduced significantly.

It would be more fair in terms of even color pie, however myself and many others love to cast brainstorms, because it is a very skill intensive card.

My comment to MM: Slowing the format down very successfully. If that is good or not is probably a matter of taste. I personally would like to see more combo in legacy...!

Concerning SFM: The card was already very good enough... Printing batterskull was a mistake I think.

Not even close. Brainstorm has been around since the format was around. If it were that format warping, Merfolks and any deck would have played it. Brainstorm is one of the strongest cards in the format, but the true culprit is Mental Misstep.

The reason is really quite simple. In the past, Brainstorm + Fow + Daze seemed to hold up against a lot of decks, however Daze/FoW came at a price, tempo loss from land drop and card disadvantage. Daze can be played around, FoW can be played against intelligently to force a less intelligent opponent to fow a bait-spell only to lose out on card advantage and the eventual game.

Mental Misstep is the single best spell printed in this format, and what it has warped the format does not need any explanation. The format is fine, it isn't broken due to Mental Misstep, but it has clearly shifted the format heavily. Blue control decks and blue decks are ever more popular because in the past having just FoW + Daze was not enough to be safe (see the above paragraph), but having just Mental Misstep with/without FoW is enough advantage for the early game to push you to a solid later game.

Misstep is the true culprit. It made FoW/Daze/blue more powerful because they have now a largely solidified counter-magic suite: 4 MM, 4 Fow, 4 Daze/other counterspells. It so happens that Misstep hits 1cmc spells, and for the same reason Chalice@1 is good in the format, MM does even better (not having to tap 2 mana and countering a timely 1cmc spell is just as good as having a Chalice sitting out at times).

Misstep killed a ton of decks (primarily combo/tide/tendrils/Goblins/Elves). They are not unviable, but they now have to fight an uphill battle, which for most players it is not worth the effort, so these decks are slightly less played even if they were still viable in the field.

To say Brainstorm is the culprit is ignoring the history of the format where Brainstorm was the most defining card of the format, the same way Sol Ring is overpowered in EDH but is the defining card of that format. Well, Brainstorm is not even close as an analogy to Sol Ring, because EDH is a retarded format with an unsensible banlist to begin with.

What has to be done is: banning Mental Misstep (which I don't support) or unbanning more cards (which I support). Just think about it. With Misstep in the format, Mystical Tutor and LAnd Tax can most safely come off. Sure MTutor.combo decks are going to be insanely scary, but do you really think most combo players would still have the balls to walk into a heavy blue format? Only the good players would do well but most people won't be able to pick it up. Besides if we were that sick of Turn 8 kills with SFM/Batterskull and turn 5-6 kills with NORUG, let's make the format more exciting when combo decks can kill on turn 2-3, forcing the meta to shift again, where even little Zoo becomes the scary deck again. But until something is done with the ban/unban list, the format is most likely to stay the way it is until new tech breaks through. NORUG, SFM, Maverick, Merfolks are always going to be great decks for the current metagame/banlist.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Brainstorm has been around since the format was around.

Uh, so? That doesn't mean it can't have gotten stronger. Or weaker. Or that the format would or wouldn't be better off without it.


If it were that format warping, Merfolks and any deck would have played it.

Efficient market theory is fundamentally flawed. Also "played in every deck" isn't the criteria for banning, that's more like the criteria for sheesh we should have banned this like a year ago.


Brainstorm is one of the strongest cards in the format, but the true culprit is Mental Misstep.

Mental Misstep is ridiculous when it's relevant and does nothing when it's not. The only problem is with Brainstorm, when it's not good it's another card.

I mean I get that MM is the new card so people gun for it but I think Brainstorm is the ticking time bomb that makes a lot of other cards more powerful than they ought to be.

[dahcmai]

I actually like having brainstorm in the format. It gives something to the format. It's the safety catch for when you really need to hide a card from Thoughtseize. It's the last ditch effort to find that one thing you need. It makes trash hands into decent ones. I am not sure I would really like the format all that much without it. It would just feel like extended then. Blah, topdeck mode where if you didn't draw what you needed in your opening hand, you almost have to mull to try again to get the hands you need against certain decks. I really don't like doing that.


Not to mention, people really need to stop using "It's used in every deck" as an excuse for a banning. Swords to plowshares in used in every deck that uses white. Lightning Bolt is used in virtually every deck using red. If we keep on that logic, you need to ban Force of will. That would be a great idea obviously. lol

[Gheizen64]

MM is so much better with brainstorm. First, countering Brainstorm is always the right play. Second, leaving U open for misstep on T1 make the card better by leap and bounds. If Brainstorm weren't there, you'd lose one of the biggest reason to play MM only in blue decks, and i guess you'd see a lot more MM in non-blue decks and also more black in general.

Someone said that discard should be an efficient way to control all the blue combo/control decks. It isn't partly because of brainstorm. Thoughtseizing someone that has a brainstorm in hand is like kicking yourself in the nuts. And Thoughtseize is a pretty stupid card, i mean, there was a time everyone thought that duress was a tad too good.

I am of the opinion that banning MM would just be a mistake. Reactive cards rarely deserve the axe. Banning brainstorm would achieve the same effect of nerfing MM and blue in general, while also giving more power to discard-based disruption.

Also a lot of people say that Brainstorm make Legacy more skill intensive. Could be. Imho having such a cheap way to reshuffle back all those unplayable bombs (Pro, Spaghetti) just diminish the importance of having a good curve and make design lazy by just having the drawback of adding random combo to a list marginal if not downright unexistent. Also Brainstorm is a lot less skill intensive than Ponder or Preordain. If not only because the existence of brainstorm make the play of island-go always the right play whereas sorcery-speed cantrip would force the decision of whether keep the mana open to counter or improve your hand position for the next turn.

With all that said, i believe the real problem is that WotC is retarded and still haven't printed a decent blue hoser since 1995 (Pyroblast).


I actually like having brainstorm in the format. It gives something to the format. It's the safety catch for when you really need to hide a card from Thoughtseize. It's the last ditch effort to find that one thing you need. It makes trash hands into decent ones. I am not sure I would really like the format all that much without it. It would just feel like extended then. Blah, topdeck mode where if you didn't draw what you needed in your opening hand, you almost have to mull to try again to get the hands you need against certain decks. I really don't like doing that.


Not to mention, people really need to stop using "It's used in every deck" as an excuse for a banning. Swords to plowshares in used in every deck that uses white. Lightning Bolt is used in virtually every deck using red. If we keep on that logic, you need to ban Force of will. That would be a great idea obviously. lol

This would actually be relevant you know... if blue didn't have already one million alternative to brainstorm (the three best being Ponder, Preordain and Opt). There's even a pretty good colorless one if you don't like topdecks mode. What the card do isn't the problem, the power level is. Or better: if you believe blue is overrepresented in legacy, then the power level of brainstorm is probably the biggest cause of it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah I mean the problem with banning Brainstorm is that it's a really fun card that doesn't do anything broken, it just makes the decks it's in significantly more consistent.

So the problem is that on power level Brainstorm probably should be banned but it does exactly what people like, which is make the game less inconsistent and random.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also blue is really hard to hose since it mostly uses blue as the base to support powerful cards in other colors. A strategy which is more than anything else supported by Brainstorm.

Like, just freeballing here:

Memory Serpent
1GG
Creature- Snake
Islandwalk
Whenever Memory Serpent deals combat damage to a player, return a card from your graveyard to your hand.
1/3

Problem: Man, you know what would make my Memory Serpent deck much better? Counters to protect it and Brainstorms to make it more consistent and also hey those are great cards to get back too.

I mean unless it's just something stupid obvious...

Goblin Landscaper
RR
Creature- Goblin Artisan
Whenever Goblin Landscaper enters the battlefield, each player sacrifices an Island or Plains.
2/1

Nephilame
WBRG
Creature- Nephilim
Hexproof
You may play Nephilame from your graveyard.
5/5

[Guy I Don't Know]

I think that other colors need better disruption. It seems like you have to play black or blue to have game against combo. I would like to see red with some especially.

An example:

Feedback R
Instant
Deal 2 damage to target creature or player
If the player or creature's controller controls an island, counter target spell.

The only thing is that all the blue decks would play it :(

I think having to play blue to be competitive is a difficult problem to fix because the blue decks will splash for cards that are good against them alot. Maybe if they made playable disruption with return basic land alternative mana costs. If you look at playable free spells:

Blue:
Mental Misstep
Force of Will
Daze
Pact of Negation
Submerge

Black:
Unmask
Slaughter Pact
Snuff Out

Green:
???

Red:
Fireblast

White:
???

[catmint]

Good arguments on why MM is a culprit Metalworker! Might be true that MM is overpowered...

However, decks/players can fight through the strategy of countering. On the long term it is the consistenty of not beeing screwed or having the right answer/threat that gives blue decks the edge. If you compare the filter mechanics of blue, brainstorm is broken.

I don't want it banned, because it is so much fun to play...but from the perspective of fair color pie it should be banned.


So the problem is that on power level Brainstorm probably should be banned but it does exactly what people like, which is make the game less inconsistent and random.
True, but you can argue that a worse filter spell does the same on a fair level

[CorpT]

Good arguments on why MM is a culprit Metalworker! Might be true that MM is overpowered...

However, decks/players can fight through the strategy of countering.

I don't want it banned, because it is so much fun to play...but from the perspective of fair color pie it should be banned.


Good strategy of fighting through counter spells, like Great Sable Stag?

[Einherjer]

Good strategy of fighting through counter spells, like Great Sable Stag?
Totally correct.

[Artowis]

Modern is basically Legacy lite minus all the blue checks and balances. Everything unfair wins on turn 2/3 and everything fair wins or can completely take over a game on turn 4.

[luckme10]

Yeah, after watching pt phily and modern, honestly I'm pretty happy about the legacy format as a whole and the direction it's going. Go team.:laugh:

[GGoober]

I'll just say that to those people who keep hammering on Brainstorm getting the banlist, I continue to raise the situation where we were fine with a diverse and awesome format in the past when Brainstorm was legal for years. The counter-argument from Brainstorm haters is: Brainstorm is better than ever, because better blue cards are printed etc. Sure, but maybe those blue cards were somewhat responsible as well? It's not as simple as Vengevine printed making Survival broken. Survival could be a similar example to such counter-arguments raised by Brainstorm-haters, but the deal is when Vengevine was printed, it was actually making a TUTOR-engine, a game-winning engine work, whereas Brainstorm still fundamentally served as a cantrip, that is possibly broken with fetchlands in the RIGHT situation.

Brainstorm is in fact only as powerful as the situation demands it to be. If you have no fetchlands in play or little in your deck, the card is terrible. What really breaks Brainstorm is shuffle effects, and if someone wants to argue against this point, feel free to bash in and I won't argue back because I think it's a waste of time.

Anyway, assuming Brainstorm did get banned. It's not just going to hurt the blue color pie in general, but it's going to hurt combo decks even more, and combo has already been shat on for the past year. And then we will find ourselves bitching about a meta of dumb aggro and black-based control/pox decks. I have no idea what the meta would be but I'm sure not playing the format if WotC decides to be overly conservative and ban Brainstorm before Misstep (once again, I don't think MM should be banned, but if there's a format warping card just as Flash/Survival warped Legacy, it is MM, not Brainstorm).

[troopatroop]

Goblin Landscaper
RR
Creature- Goblin Artisan
Whenever Goblin Landscaper enters the battlefield, each player sacrifices an Island or Plains.
2/1


I support this. It would be WTFBonkers in Legacy. My Goblin Sligh WANTS.

[GGoober]

I support this. It would be WTFBonkers in Legacy. My Goblin Sligh WANTS.

He is RR costed, also, owned by Fetchlands ;)

(i.e. you have turn 2, blue-player sits on 2 fetchlands, you don't play him, EOT Brainstorm/Plow. He has fetched a island etc, you play Goblin Landscaper, get Stifle/Snared etc etc)

He needs split second and flash to be good

[troopatroop]

He is RR costed, also, owned by Fetchlands ;)

(i.e. you have turn 2, blue-player sits on 2 fetchlands, you don't play him, EOT Brainstorm/Plow. He has fetched a island etc, you play Goblin Landscaper, get Stifle/Snared etc etc)

He needs split second and flash to be good

He does not need Split Second or Flash to be good. I notice the RR, and like that. 1R would be broken.

Each situation you're talking about is 1for1 on cards. Stifle leaves you with a 2/1 , and Snare is one of the only good answers, apart from people being smart with their Fetches. Still, if they want to play something turn 1 or 2, they'll need to fetch duals, and it's Sinkhole on legs when it works.

[mrjumbo03]

They should make more "When you cast this card", instead of "When this card enters the battlefield" so that you can say FU to counters.

[Gheizen64]

Stop printing good red creatures that are always goblin. I miss when red wasn't only about dumb green dudes and i actually attacked with things like Jackal Pup, Ape or Avalanche rider and pinged with Fireslinger :(

And i miss also LD being semi-viable. Cryoclasm is almost there, but still not. It goes a long way to tell how shitty hate is those days if even a card designed as hate isn't playable in a format where every deck has a target for it lol.

[DrJones]

I'll just say that to those people who keep hammering on Brainstorm getting the banlist, I continue to raise the situation where we were fine with a diverse and awesome format in the past when Brainstorm was legal for years. The counter-argument from Brainstorm haters is: Brainstorm is better than ever, because better blue cards are printed etc. Sure, but maybe those blue cards were somewhat responsible as well? It's not as simple as Vengevine printed making Survival broken. Survival could be a similar example to such counter-arguments raised by Brainstorm-haters, but the deal is when Vengevine was printed, it was actually making a TUTOR-engine, a game-winning engine work, whereas Brainstorm still fundamentally served as a cantrip, that is possibly broken with fetchlands in the RIGHT situation.

Brainstorm is in fact only as powerful as the situation demands it to be. If you have no fetchlands in play or little in your deck, the card is terrible. What really breaks Brainstorm is shuffle effects, and if someone wants to argue against this point, feel free to bash in and I won't argue back because I think it's a waste of time.

Anyway, assuming Brainstorm did get banned. It's not just going to hurt the blue color pie in general, but it's going to hurt combo decks even more, and combo has already been shat on for the past year. And then we will find ourselves bitching about a meta of dumb aggro and black-based control/pox decks. I have no idea what the meta would be but I'm sure not playing the format if WotC decides to be overly conservative and ban Brainstorm before Misstep (once again, I don't think MM should be banned, but if there's a format warping card just as Flash/Survival warped Legacy, it is MM, not Brainstorm).I think that from your point, the format was good until MM got printed.

From these people's viewpoint, the format was already in favour of blue as could be easily verificated through statistical analysis of tournament's Top 8, which also shown a positive correlation between the size of a tournament and the number of blue shells in said Top 8s. Think of the meta as a container overflowing already with blue mana, and MM was the last drop that made the glass spill. It's not MM, but anything you add to the blue shell that makes blue too strong, and the solution is not to take away that last drop because that doesn't actually fix anything, but to reduce the liquid in the container back to safe levels. Ban the broken cards first, instead of all the cards that seem to be really strong when paired with them.

The problem is that these people know that certain card is the real problem, but don't want to see it banned, so they settle for the next best thing, which happens to be Brainstorm. However, there are people that don't want to lose any of the broken blue cards, so for them the solution is not to ban anything, or just ban the latest addition to the meta, knowing that the problem will keep repeating as soon as another good blue card gets printed.

[Koby]

Stop printing good red creatures that are always goblin. I miss when red wasn't only about dumb green dudes and i actually attacked with things like Jackal Pup, Ape or Avalanche rider and pinged with Fireslinger :(

And i miss also LD being semi-viable. Cryoclasm is almost there, but still not. It goes a long way to tell how shitty hate is those days if even a card designed as hate isn't playable in a format where every deck has a target for it lol.

As an eternal Redmage, I am 100% behind this.

Less free counterspells, more Molten Rains that are competitive.

[HAVE HEART]

Yeah I mean the problem with banning Brainstorm is that it's a really fun card that doesn't do anything broken, it just makes the decks it's in significantly more consistent.

So the problem is that on power level Brainstorm probably should be banned but it does exactly what people like, which is make the game less inconsistent and random.

I do not think you have to be that politically correct with Brainstorm. Calling it broken would be completely correct.

If you are a non-blue deck and your hand sucks, then your hand is going to suck for the rest of the game. If you are a blue deck and your hand sucks, but you have a Brainstorm, then chances are your hand is going to get a lot better, real fast.

The only problem with banning Brainstorm is that it rewards skill and is fun/thought-provoking to use.

[Phoenix Ignition]

The only problem with banning Brainstorm is that it rewards skill and is fun/thought-provoking to use.

Just wondering, seriously now, how often is your Brainstorm choice skillful/thought provoking? I'd say in 70% of decks it's "draw 3, throw back 2 lands or land + Progenitus, crack a fetch," in 20% of decks it's "draw 3, throw back that silver bullet you don't need + land, crack a fetch" and in 10% it's "find more lands, throw back irrelevant cards in this matchup, crack a fetch."

I love brainstorm, I don't want it banned, but let's not fool ourselves, the last time I was confused by a brainstorm must have been 5 years ago.

[Jonathan Alexander]

The hard thing about casting Brainstorm is not what to do but when to do it. Properly timing Brainstorm is pretty hard. It's kinda like Who's The Beatdown, even though everybody should know about it, a lot of people still do it wrong, but since so many players do it, you can still succeed if you're doing it wrong.
Especially in aggressive decks it's very hard to determine when the correct time to cast Brainstorm actually is.

That doesn't make it any less of a powerful card though, and if there's any card that could be banned in Legacy right now, I'd say it's Brainstorm. Nonetheless, I don't think it's too strong either, so in my opinion it should stay legal.