JUND deck

[KobeBryan]

Please help me with this deck.

lands
2 Badlands
4 Bayou
2 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze

spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Go for the Throat
3 Natural Order
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Duress
4 Mental Misstep
2 Dismember
2 Chain Lightning

sideboard
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 4 Leyline of the void
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Krosan Grip


The biggest problem i have so far is that Prog goes into my hand. The only way for me to shuffle it away is to thoughtseize myself.

What do you guys think of it so far?

[f|i[p]]

Looks interesting, but wouldnt grim lavamancer be a good addition since it seems to be a must counter, and must kill for both merfs and maverick?

[KobeBryan]

lands
2 Badlands
4 Bayou
2 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Progenitus
4 grim lavamancer

spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Go for the Throat
3 Natural Order
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Mental Misstep
2 Dismember

sideboard
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 4 Leyline of the void
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Krosan Grip


What about now?

[soiber2000]

Dark Confidant+Progenitus with no manipulation. I don't think it is a good idea...

[KobeBryan]

Dark Confidant+Progenitus with no manipulation. I don't think it is a good idea...

Thats why there is only 1 prog in there. chances of drawing it is slim.

[f|i[p]]

What is the zenith for..? you only have 6 targets as of now...

[metalhead]

Where are your bloodbraid elves and blightnings?? I actually had a discussion with emidln where he watched a standard jund deck (same 75 the guy played at fnm the night before) go 6-2 in a legacy event, 4 wins were him CRUSHING U based control. The losses were to goblins, or more importantly to price of progress drilling him for 8+.

[TheXile]

Isn't this just a standard Rock deck...with some red?

[Wereodile]

Where are your bloodbraid elves and blightnings?? I actually had a discussion with emidln where he watched a standard jund deck (same 75 the guy played at fnm the night before) go 6-2 in a legacy event, 4 wins were him CRUSHING U based control. The losses were to goblins, or more importantly to price of progress drilling him for 8+.

I love Blightning and Bloodbraid but I am not sure about them in Legacy. Bloodbraid forces you to build your deck a certain way so unless you build in a lot of redundancy and cut down on "dead" spells ie.GSZ that won't trigger or end up nuking one of your permanents ie.Terminate or Maelstrom Pulse.

Don't get me wrong I love Jund and am working on a Modern version right now but in Legacy I feel with the inclusion of Bloodbraid and Blightning you would have to tailor your build. That may not be a bad thing just makes you think about cards more in the vein of "what is going to be good in THIS deck rather then the best R/B/G cards in the format

[TheXile]

You do know that the cascade mechanic does not actually require you to play the spell...thus if you hit something bad you can just not use it..also you could play a dryad arbor so if you hit gsz it's still a rampant growth.

[Wereodile]

You do know that the cascade mechanic does not actually require you to play the spell...thus if you hit something bad you can just not use it..also you could play a dryad arbor so if you hit gsz it's still a rampant growth.

You are right GSZ is not a dead spell but If I am spending 4 mana for a 3/2 with haste I want more then just fetching Dryad Arbor with GSZ.

[Qweerios]

Jund is a viable deck in legacy if you are tired of Zoo. The advantage of playing black over white in a Zoo-like deck is trading card quality for card advantage (fuel). This tradeoff is especially relevant against control decks. Playing NO without blue is probably a bad idea. NO Prog in general isn't a very strong play to base a deck around and without any form of protection, it isn't reliable (discard isn't protection).

I think that if you truly want to build a Jund deck, you need to build it around the strongest cards that are availlable in this color combination. Those cards include Blightning, Maelstrom Pulse, Bloodbraid Elf, and Terminate for instance. You will notice that those are mostly costly spells with powerful effects so I suggest you aim for a midrange strategy unlike Zoo that utilizes a sligh strategy. Here is a Jund deck I enjoyed playing for a couple of weeklies:


Creatures (22)
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Eternal Witness
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (19)
3 Mirri's Guile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Maelstrom Pulse

Lands (19)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Duress
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Phyrexian Revoker


I stayed away from Blightning because Hymn to Tourach is simply better. I opted for Mirri's Guile over Top or Sylvan because it isn't as mana intensive as Top, and filters draws and cascades during your upkeep as opposed to doing it during your draw step for your next turn (it is much faster than Library). Most of the creatures have small bodies because of the sheer amount of removal and card advantage this deck provides. The deck often wins beating with Bobs, Witnesses, and Bloodbraids because they always have a clear path.

[Esper3k]

Man, cascading into Eternal Witness seems absolutely brutal!

[Qweerios]

I have recently picked Jund back up again and I think Bloodbraid Elf is really undervalued. Cascading into any form of removal is really strong when you are laying down a 3/2 haste creature on T3. Cascading into a Witness is also a great play that nets you 2 creatures on the field and fuels your hand with removal, bob, BBE, etc... I have had very positive results against Maverick, Deadguy, Combo Elves, NO RUG, Bant Aggro, Merfolk, and Hive Mind most notably. Goblins and ANT have been the only matchups where I have struggled with their clock or board presence/resillience (stupid Ringleader). Here is what I have been playing:


Creatures (20)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (19)
3 Mirri's Guile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Maelstrom Pulse

Lands (21)
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard (15)
4 Duress
3 Extirpate
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte


I took out the Grim Lavamancers because I really didn't like how they interacted with Witness and Goyf, often I had to choose wether I wanted to burn a card at the expense of Goyf's P/T or i would simply cascade into a Witness that couldn't bring back what I wanted.

Mirri's Guile is extremely powerful with Bob and BBE. Along with 12 fetchland, moulding my draws and my cascades has proven to be extremely potent.

[troopatroop]

Mirri's Guile is a bad magic card. Card Disadvantage is awful. Bloodbraid Elf and Confidant don't make it worth it, especially because you can Cascade into it! Why would you ever put that card in your constructed Legacy deck? Wouldn't you rather have a 3/3 for G?

[KobeBryan]

Mirri's Guile is a bad magic card. Card Disadvantage is awful. Bloodbraid Elf and Confidant don't make it worth it, especially because you can Cascade into it! Why would you ever put that card in your constructed Legacy deck? Wouldn't you rather have a 3/3 for G?

Mirri's Guile is not the best, especially since you can use Sylvan Library.

You are also overemphasizing on Card disadvantage. Its truly not that bad. So is dark ritual a bad card because it has card disadvantage?

[Qweerios]

In practice, Mirri's Guile has proven to be pivotal in getting the best out of Bob and BBE. Mixing Guile with 12 fetchlands offers so much card quality. Mirri's Guile is essentially Sensei's Divining Top without the activation cost and the extra card reach. We all know how great top is and it is not because of its tap ability... I think you are missing the whole point of Mirri's Guile Troopatroop, you don't cascade into it, it makes you cascade into what you want.

Besides, Cascading into a Guile only means you didn't have one into play to begin with, a 3/2 Haste that poops out a Guile for 4 mana is a good play in this deck, it nets you a beater and a filter in a deck crawling with removal. Furthermore, If I can get my opponent in topdeck mode while I have a Guile into play, I will win.

Sylvan Library would make a suitable replacement for Mirri's Guile but the fact that the filtering occurs during the draw step is really dissynergistic with Bob. Not only does it not filter the first flip (which is marginal), but it will not filter during any subsequent turns that a fetch has been used. So far, I preffer the low mana cost and upkeep filtering of Guile to Sylvan's drawing ability. Sylvan isn't something I can just "squeeze" into play either, it has to be set up for abuse while Guile's utility is an automatic fit.

[capitacom]

I have been testing this list which uses destructive force as a devestating enchantment against decks with a lot of non-basics:

Lands -20
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
3 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Forest

Creatures - 19
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Terravore

Spells - 21
3 Destructive Force
3 Mirri's Guile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard -15
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Terminate
4 Thoughtseize
3 Null Rod
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge

Hymn is hard on the mana, but maybe it should be added in favor of inquition. Inquisition has much better synergy with therapy though.

ANT matchup has in testing been pretty good, about 45-55 pre-board mainly depending on your hand and 65-35 postboard. With thoughtseize and null rod it becomes a lot better post-board.

Zoo is about 60-40 pre and post board. If you can get destructive flow out you should win.

Affinity is about 60-40 pre board but it gets better postboard with null rod and ancient grudge.

NO RUG pre-board depends on the amount of disruption you pull and how fast their hand is. Postboard thoughtseize/REB helps bring the matchup in your favor as if you can stop the fast NO, you can grind them out with destructive flow and your 2-1s.

Stoneblade is about 60-40 pre and postboard. If you can stop mystic you should be fine. You can grind out the match with all your card advantage. Postboard you can bring in Null Rod/Ancient Grudge while they bring in more removal so that the matchups stays the same.

Maverick is pretty difficult pre-board, as you don't have enough removal to take care of all of their threats although their disruption doesn't really affect you. Most maverick sideboards don't have too much that hurts you while you have null rod/ancient grudge/terminate to take care of the equipment.

Merfolk is difficult pre-board as your mana-denial doesn't work against them. If you can stick a threat with removal/sof&i you should be able to win, as destructive flow does lower their threat density by taking care of mutavault. If they play with a splash you have a better chance. Postboard they have submerge which is very annoying (especially on your turn one birds) while you have red elemental blast. Probably the most difficult of the common matchups. Probably about 50-50 overall. Maybe grim lavamancer should be in the deck/sideboard for this matchup.

Dark Horizons - their mana denial doesn't really work against you which is a big bonus. The more creatures/zeniths they play the more difficult the matchup gets, although destructive flow is very good agaisnt them. You have more card advantage and play more threats so you should be able to grind them out.

In a lot of matchups sword and flow come out as that negates any artifact/enchantment removal they bring in and flow is a lot worse postboard anyway if they only fetch basics. Null Rod is also an absolute bomb in this deck as it is good in so many matchups and doesn't hurt your deck at all.
Mirri's guile is much better in this deck than top as you draw a lot of cards and you need a lot of mana to be able to play the deck fully.

[Qweerios]

Oh wow, great idea with Destructive Flow and Terravore!

I don't think Cabal Therapy offers you anything of value and it could easely be replaced by Thoughtseize. I agree that Hymn could be really hard on your manabase if you are constantly forced to fetch for basic lands. Any form of double-same-color-costed card should be avoided with Flow (Witness and Hymn).

Why 1 Forest, 3 Swamp, and 2 Mountains when your deck needs at least 2 Forest, 1 Mountain, and 1 Swamp?

I will test the following list and tell you about it:


Creatures (20)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Terravore
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (14)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Enchantments (6)
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Destructive Flow

Lands (20)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge

[capitacom]

I miscopied the lands as it was from an old iteration of the deck with hymn and without terravore. Cabal therapy is a much better cascade than bloodbraid elf, especially if you have already seen your opponents hand. Its also an easy way to get rid of confidant if you're low on life and gives you a good use for birds of paradise in the lategame. It is also very good against mystic as you can remove what they fetch and then flash it back nabbing another card. Cabal therapy also doesn't cost you life which is quite relevant against other aggro decks since you play no lifegain at all while losing some to confidant. Without therapy and sof&i I would probably go with mox diamond and two more lands as mox diamond has a lot more synergy with terravore while turn one confidant, turn two flow should win you most games. I will probably take this deck to a GPT in a couple of weeks, and maybe to the GP as well (I live in Holland).