Let's Ban Fetchlands

[Shawon]

I was watching Evan Erwin's latest video article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/22661_The_Magic_Show_241_The_Mistakes_of_New_Phyrexia.html#comments) tonight and usually he talks about Standard and spoilers and etc, but this episode he was talking about New Phyrexia from a design and development perspective. He talks about how Mental Mistep has made Legacy unfun and how Dismember has made Standard unfun as well. But in his discussion of Mental Mistep, he also suggests Brainstorm is overpowered as well, comparing the interaction with fetchlands to that of Ancestral Recall.

To anyone lurking in The Source, we all know how Mental Mistep has changed the format and how powerful Brainstorm is. And we all know that Blue is the dominant color in Magic. Even before Mental Mistep entered the scene, we've had threads discussing the prevalence of Blue since 6 of the top 8 decks of GP Columbus 2010 were blue decks. But if something were to be done, what would it be?

The article got me thinking, what if we were to ban fetchlands? Hear me out. Without fetchlands, we fix the problem of Brainstorm being too overpowered. But, since the format would still have Brainstorm, blue decks would be able to use it. Fast combo is still kept in check from turn 1-3 kills, with Brainstorm being able to find countermagic and answers. While MM has wiped out the presence of Sensei's Divining Top, banning fetchlands would also address Top's brokeness with fetchlands. Lastly, banning fetchlands would decrease tournament match times with less shuffling occurrences.

[Tao]

Bullshit. Misstep has made Legacy more fun. Best designed powerful card of the last years.

[Dia_Bot]

There is a time and place for threads like these: april fool's day, The source.
Looks like you only got one of these right.

[Lemnear]

You aren't aware that you'll Not only hurt Blue and brainstorm with that Move? Zoo, Loam, Rock, junk and many other decks would Be anhilated by such a move. Obviously you didn't think to much about it because combo isn't really hurt if you Ban fetches; reanimator would play dual-Color-lands like the Scars-Lands, TES is generally running Rainbow-lands, belcher ... Runs no manabas, etc.

And GP Columbus 2010 is Not relevant in deciding todays bannings ... Should I post tournament data from 1996/97 and argue to re-ban Kird ape (Yes it was banned), Mill stone and Serra Angel? All nonsense! Todays data Show a very diverse meta

[DrJones]

Banning fetchlands suddenly makes land destruction decks better. Right now, the only LD played is the one that counters fetchland triggers, the one that makes the opponent sacrifice lands, and wasteland, which forces the opponent to pay life to search for basics.

Banning fetchlands also destroys legacy's budget, because these lands reduce the number of actual dual lands you are required to buy to play a deck. Maybe for a person that already has a set of 40 is not that of a big deal, but as long as there's no replacement for them, and they are strictly required to enter the format, it can only end in disaster.

Also, this still doesn't fix most of the problems inherent with brainstorm. But it's typical of blue players to suggest banning anything over the problem cards, much in the vein of fat people that buys anything over exercising: their body and mind isn't prepared for the kind of shock that "having to work" provokes.

[Shawon]

Bullshit. Misstep has made Legacy more fun. Best designed powerful card of the last years.

Not my words. I actually like Mental Mistep. I'd much rather have Mistep.format than Countertop.format, but it doesn't change the fact that Blue being prevalent isn't a problem and we can't solve that problem by just banning Blue cards. Blue decks need Brainstorm to keep fast combo in check, but blue decks can still be competitive without fetchlands.


You aren't aware that you'll Not only hurt Blue and brainstorm with that Move? Zoo, Loam, Rock, junk and many other decks would Be anhilated by such a move. Obviously you didn't think to much about it because combo isn't really hurt if you Ban fetches; reanimator would play dual-Color-lands like the Scars-Lands, TES is generally running Rainbow-lands, belcher ... Runs no manabas, etc.

And GP Columbus 2010 is Not relevant in deciding todays bannings ... Should I post tournament data from 1996/97 and argue to re-ban Kird ape (Yes it was banned), Mill stone and Serra Angel? All nonsense! Todays data Show a very diverse meta

How would the multi-color decks be mentioned be "annihilated" if fetchlands were to leave the format? Would they still be functional or not competitive if they had no access to fetchlands? Aside from that, your statements that no fetchlands doesn't hurt Combo, so aren't you supporting my claim that banning fetchlands would balance the format?

I wasn't using GP data to justify any bannings. I was just saying that the problem of blue being a dominant color existed around that time. Eyes on the prize.


Banning fetchlands suddenly makes land destruction decks better. Right now, the only LD played is the one that counters fetchland triggers, the one that makes the opponent sacrifice lands, and wasteland, which forces the opponent to pay life to search for basics.

Banning fetchlands also destroys legacy's budget, because these lands reduce the number of actual dual lands you are required to buy to play a deck. Maybe for a person that already has a set of 40 is not that of a big deal, but as long as there's no replacement for them, and they are strictly required to enter the format, it can only end in disaster.

Also, this still doesn't fix most of the problems inherent with brainstorm. But it's typical of blue players to suggest banning anything over the problem cards, much in the vein of fat people that buys anything over exercising: their body and mind isn't prepared for the kind of shock that "having to work" provokes.


LD decks? Like Ponza? I've never seen a Legacy Ponza deck. Or do you mean Pox decks? I like Pox decks, but seeing more of them in top 16s wouldn't be an unhealthy thing at all.

Well, I will concede that banning fetchlands will be a huge hit to the people who have money invested in the game, but wouldn't banning fetchlands make the price of entry for any newcomers much more affordable? I admit I haven't thought about the pricing issue.

I just explained how banning fetchlands would affect Brainstorm. Brainstorm still retains its power in the early game by helping Blue find answer cards against combo, although it still weakens with the loss of fetchlands. But when I say "weaken," I really mean "balance."

[Shawon]

Bullshit. Misstep has made Legacy more fun. Best designed powerful card of the last years.

Not my words. I actually like Mental Mistep. I'd much rather have Mistep.format than Countertop.format, but it doesn't change the fact that Blue being prevalent isn't a problem and we can't solve that problem by just banning Blue cards. Blue decks need Brainstorm to keep fast combo in check, but blue decks can still be competitive without fetchlands.


You aren't aware that you'll Not only hurt Blue and brainstorm with that Move? Zoo, Loam, Rock, junk and many other decks would Be anhilated by such a move. Obviously you didn't think to much about it because combo isn't really hurt if you Ban fetches; reanimator would play dual-Color-lands like the Scars-Lands, TES is generally running Rainbow-lands, belcher ... Runs no manabas, etc.

And GP Columbus 2010 is Not relevant in deciding todays bannings ... Should I post tournament data from 1996/97 and argue to re-ban Kird ape (Yes it was banned), Mill stone and Serra Angel? All nonsense! Todays data Show a very diverse meta

How would the multi-color decks be mentioned "annihilated" if fetchlands were to leave the format? Would they still be functional or not competitive if they had no access to fetchlands? Aside from that, you state loss of fetchlands doesn't hurt Combo, so aren't you supporting my claim that banning fetchlands would balance the format?

I wasn't using GP data to justify any bannings. I was just saying that the problem of blue being a dominant color existed around that time. Keep your eyes on the prize.


Banning fetchlands suddenly makes land destruction decks better. Right now, the only LD played is the one that counters fetchland triggers, the one that makes the opponent sacrifice lands, and wasteland, which forces the opponent to pay life to search for basics.

Banning fetchlands also destroys legacy's budget, because these lands reduce the number of actual dual lands you are required to buy to play a deck. Maybe for a person that already has a set of 40 is not that of a big deal, but as long as there's no replacement for them, and they are strictly required to enter the format, it can only end in disaster.

Also, this still doesn't fix most of the problems inherent with brainstorm. But it's typical of blue players to suggest banning anything over the problem cards, much in the vein of fat people that buys anything over exercising: their body and mind isn't prepared for the kind of shock that "having to work" provokes.


LD decks? Like Ponza? I've never seen a Legacy Ponza deck. Or do you mean Pox decks? I like Pox decks, but seeing more of them in top 16s wouldn't be an unhealthy thing at all.

Well, I will concede that banning fetchlands will be a huge hit to the people who have money invested in the game, but wouldn't banning fetchlands make the price of entry for any newcomers much more affordable? I admit I haven't thought about the pricing issue.

I just explained how banning fetchlands would affect Brainstorm. Brainstorm still retains its power in the early game by helping Blue find answer cards against combo, although it still weakens with the loss of fetchlands. But when I say "weaken," I really mean "balance."

[OurSerratedDust]

Also, the lack of fetchlands would give a huge advantage to mono colored decks. I'm pretty sure that isn't how legacy should be.

[Deady]

Any banning would be inappropriate in todays Legacy.

There's no card too powerful for the format. It's just that some decks are better constructed than they were before, which is amazing.

Now the format finally slowed down a bit and it's still not good enough.

Actually a lot of people on the Legacy forums should consider playing Modern or just to quit playing Magic if that doesn't solve their problems.

[Rizso]

I still think the format is very healthy and alot of matchups are very interactive. Card advantech has grown to be a alot stronger strategy then before.

That the game is screwing with the colorpie doesnt matter that much in legacy as we can play any color and any number of them in the same deck. While standard decks normally dont have a 1 colorless removal for every deck.

Banning fetchland to lower the power of brainstorm is not a correct way to do it. Not that I think Brainstorm should be banned.

Its not really that misstep have wiped out the top but rather misstep have slowed down legacy with 1 or 2 turns. Making people reliably running more 3, 4 and even 5 dropps and that makes counterbalance less reliable.

[Angelfire]

Banning Brainstorm makes much more sense. Mental Misstep is fine, Blue just needs a small nudge to make it closer to the other colors.

The only thing I don't like about Fetchlands is the amount of time shuffling your deck 1-6 extra times per player, per game takes.

[Shawon]

Banning Brainstorm makes much more sense. Mental Misstep is fine, Blue just needs a small nudge to make it closer to the other colors.

The only thing I don't like about Fetchlands is the amount of time shuffling your deck 1-6 extra times per player, per game takes.

Well, at least we agree that banning fetchlands would reduce the constant shuffling within games.

But I disagree with banning Brainstorm. It helps stop fast combo from completing degenerate turn 1-2 goldfishes. Brainstorm is only overpowered with fetchlands. Its other functions are more necessary than overpowered, such as protecting your hand from discard or putting away cards you need to have in your library (see: Progenitus). Ponder and Preordain are good filter cards, but they don't have the supplemental functions Brainstorm has, so Brainstorm isn't easily replaceable with Ponder/Preordain.

EDIT: Bolded and colored for reference.

[.nemesis]

Best designed powerful card of the last years.

While I do agree that Misstep hasn't broken the format in half, I feel the design could have been better. See, a lot of powerful cards from the more recent history that impacted Legacy (think Jace2, Tarmogoyf, Misstep, Thrun...) have something in common. They're good answers for themselves. Your opponent drops a goyf? If you have one of your own, you can drop yours too and essentially nothing happened. This applies to some degree for many cards that see play in Legacy.

If Misstep would cost P[U]P[U], it would probably still see play, but players would have to think twice if the life loss is worth it to be run off-color PLUS you couldn't Misstep your opponent's Misstep - which is more interactive by being noninteractive (That's weird, I know. Think of Split Second and its implications - you can lessen the impact of Krosan Grip if you know your timing well). I get a little pissed when I see stuff like:

P1: Savannah, Vial
P2: Misstep your Vial
P1: Misstep your Misstep
P2: Misstep your Misstep targeting my Misstep

All in a GW Maverick mirror.

Other than that, everything is fine. The american metagame sucks, but that's mainly because people are just copying the latest hot deck instead of innovating or metagaming a perfectly viable deck to beat the latest hot deck. Over here in Europe, Legacy is as vibrant as it was pre-NPH.

Oh yeah, and don't you dare touching my beloved Brainstorm. Seriously, if it's banned I will probably change to playing the only formats that allow me to play the most fun card ever printed, which is Vintage and EDH.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Trolololololol

But really, fetchlands? I don't think it would solve any problems without creating a bunch more.

[Shawon]

Trolololololol

But really, fetchlands? I don't think it would solve any problems without creating a bunch more.

But really, a one-liner? You can do better than that. Please elaborate. Oh, before you do, while I hadn't taken into account pricing/budget issues when I wrote my post, I don't really intend on discussing the pricing implications if fetchlands were banned. They're irrelevant to whether banning them would balance Legacy as a format. EDIT: Colored for reference.

[Admiral_Arzar]

But really, a one-liner? You can do better than that. Please elaborate. Oh, before you do, while I hadn't taken into account pricing/budget issues when I wrote my post, I don't really intend on discussing the pricing implications if fetchlands were banned. They're irrelevant to whether banning them would balance Legacy as a format. EDIT: Colored for reference.

Actually, they are. The banning of fetches would likely drive dual prices to high heaven, as you'd need to play larger numbers of duals. I was referring more to the implications of multicolor decks being fucked over (as it's now much harder to play around Wasteland and Blood Moon etc.) This would turn Legacy into a format of one and two-color decks (sounds like standard to me, and I have no interest in that whatsoever).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think people are actually being a bit blind to how essential fetchlands are to Legacy.

Things that would be drastically worse without fetchlands, some to the point of being simply unplayable:

- Steppe Lynx
- Wild Nacatal
- Tarmogoyf
- Grim Lavamancer
- Knight of the Reliquary
- Tombstalker
- Brainstorm
- Sensei's Divining Top
- Sylvan Library
- Jace, the Mind Sculptor
- In conjunction with the above, a whole lot of situation cards, most especially Mental Misstep and Spell Snare.
- Stifle
- Dryad Arbor and Natural Order
- Hymn to Tourach, as the decks that play it now would have a much harder time getting to double black.
- Life from the Loam
- Any three color (or more) color deck)
- To a lesser extent, any two color deck

Really the only things to survive intact would be tribal decks and Dredge. Which is not an exciting format.

I mean banning fetchlands would take a hatchet to the format's power level, and I've said for a while now that they're one (ten) of the most subtly warping cards in the game. We have no idea what Legacy would look like without them.

But that's also the argument against it. The genie's been out of the bottle on this for years now. Banning the fetchlands would destroy Legacy as we know it. And combined with the creation of Modern it would probably produce an exodus it could never really recover from. The idea is just untenable.


Actually, they are. The banning of fetches would likely drive dual prices to high heaven, as you'd need to play larger numbers of duals. I was referring more to the implications of multicolor decks being fucked over (as it's now much harder to play around Wasteland and Blood Moon etc.) This would turn Legacy into a format of one and two-color decks (sounds like standard to me, and I have no interest in that whatsoever).

This is also putting the cart in front of the horse, in reality I think you'd just see a lot fewer three color decks and so the number of duals played wouldn't shift much, or would go down slightly, if anything (running 4 in a 2 color deck instead of 5-6 in a 3 color deck).


Bullshit. Misstep has made Legacy more fun. Best designed powerful card of the last years.

Agreed. It's not even a blue card, whatever people think. I don't think it can explain any continued growth in people playing blue, better explanations are 1) Brainstorm, 2) Groupthink.

[Shawon]

I do have to admit that neutering Steppe Lynx and Wild Nacatl would be really bad, as Zoo is such an innovative decks that comes in plenty of creative iterations. The rest of the list of cards you mentioned would still see play if fetchlands were banned, although they would be less effective in completing their role. Tarmogoyf could still be pretty big, but it would take more work (packing in more sorceries, using wasteland, etc).

Like you said, we have no idea what Legacy will look like if fetchlands were gone, but I think the outcome could possibly be good. Banning fetchlands would, in the strictest sense, force players to find creative solutions for efficient manabases. I don't think the format will degenerate into 1-2 colored decks if people are willing. If anything, the color pie would slightly shift, making Green into a more reliable color for mana fixing.

If you don't think banning fetchlands is feasible, do you believe something else needs to be done or nothing at all?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Jace, Goyf, Misstep and Hymn are the only cards I listed that would see any play without fetchlands, and they would all be significantly worse. Brainstorm might see some play in a few decks, but it's a lot worse without shuffle effects.

Legacy is not in anywhere near so bad a shape that the solution is to destroy the entire format and replace it with a new and undeveloped one, which is what banning fetchlands would do.

If I were to do anything, I'd probably ban Brainstorm, but that's more because I think it's going to happen sooner or later anyway and I'm tired of the tension than anything else. The Hatfields' numbers for NO Rug seem kind of scary but I'm not really clear that it's an unsolvable problem yet.

Also Zoo is a fun, interactive, and interesting deck and yes there is in fact room for innovation within the archetype.

[KevinTrudeau]

I was very afraid when I first clicked on this thread that this was discussion concerning an official announcement from Mr. LaPille.

Banning the fetchlands would stifle deck variety to an enormous extent, so I don't think it's a very feasible idea. If I had to pick a card to ban to shake things up, I would pick Misstep; not because of its power level (which isn't nearly close enough to being ban-worthy), but because I really just don't like the card. The conspiracy theory side of me thinks they printed it to slowly kill off interest in the format, though I don't know if the people at WotC have that much foresight.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I literally do not understand why anyone would want to ban Mental Misstep.

[DrJones]

Because there's the risk that not banning Mental Misstep could result in banning Force of Will.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Of all the most heavily played cards right now I think those are the two I would least like to ban.

I would legitimately rather ban Dryad Arbor than either Misstep or Force.

[Malchar]

There's nothing "broken" about fetchlands. It would feel wrong to have them banned, even if it did make the game more "fair". However, I still think that overall the game would be much worse without fetchlands. Playing a 3 or 4 color deck and getting the right mana is fun. Being able to splash in all the useful low-costed cards you want is kind of the bread and butter of legacy. Also, if people actually played safe manabases, then blood moon wouldn't be nearly as fun to play on turn 1.

I don't really think that blue is the most dominant color in legacy. Ever since tarmogoyf showed up, it has been a steady decline. Now, we finally have maverick, which is able to play perfectly well without any blue at all. Besides, it doesn't really make sense to say that one color is dominant in legacy precisely because it is so easy to splash multiple colors. The truly dominant "color" in legacy is "a multicolor deck".

[Final Fortune]

Well, at least we agree that banning fetchlands would reduce the constant shuffling within games.

But I disagree with banning Brainstorm. It helps stop fast combo from completing degenerate turn 1-2 goldfishes. Brainstorm is only overpowered with fetchlands. Its other functions are more necessary than overpowered, such as protecting your hand from discard or putting away cards you need to have in your library (see: Progenitus). Ponder and Preordain are good filter cards, but they don't have the supplemental functions Brainstorm has, so Brainstorm isn't easily replaceable with Ponder/Preordain.

EDIT: Bolded and colored for reference.

Brainstorm has nothing to do with control or aggro-control's ability to keep comb "in check," Preordian is on par with Brainstorm and Ponder is even better at finding counter magic on the first turn and it's a completely topical argument for Brainstorm's presence in the format (not that I think Brainstorm should be banned, I just think your logic for Brainstorm is "off")

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Preordain and Ponder are nowhere near the power level of Brainstorm, but the difference in their relative power is much greater in combo decks running Brainstorm (which is most of them) than in other decks.

[Final Fortune]

I agree, which is why his point of view is completely dubious, Brainstorm does more to help combo than it does to hurt it and banning it would be worse for combo than for aggro-control because Combo has no effective replacement for the card while "insert cantrip here" does the same thing in aggro-control vs. combo as Brainstorm.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Honestly, I'd rather we just ban everything that was printed during or after Time Spiral block. As far as I'm concerned, the printing of Tarmogoyf was the end of Legacy as an interesting format. I find it funny that people bitch and moan about blue being the most powerful color when it hasn't actually been on top in years. That title belongs to green and green alone. I mean, in the past few years, we've seen the following printed:

Tarmogoyf
Knight of the Reliquary
Krosan Grip
Qasali Pridemage
Green Sun's Zenith
Gaddock Teeg
Life from the Loam
Trygon Predator
Bloodbraid Elf
Noble Hierarch
Wild Nacatl

That's a lot of green love.

[Gheizen64]

Preordain and Ponder are nowhere near the power level of Brainstorm, but the difference in their relative power is much greater in combo decks running Brainstorm (which is most of them) than in other decks.

I agree, the sole fact that brainstorm can hide bombs and invalidate a lot of pinpointed discard make it so much better in a combo archetype than in a control shell.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I mean, in the past few years, we've seen the following printed:

Tarmogoyf
Knight of the Reliquary
Krosan Grip
Qasali Pridemage
Green Sun's Zenith
Gaddock Teeg
Life from the Loam
Trygon Predator
Bloodbraid Elf
Noble Hierarch
Wild Nacatl

That's a lot of green love.

Don't forget Progenitus ;)

[dontbiteitholmes]

Because there's the risk that not banning Mental Misstep could result in banning Force of Will.

No one is going to ever under any circumstances ban Force of Will, you may go play Modern now. Good day to you sir.

Ditto that to guy who thinks banning fetches is a good idea. Yeah Legacy was much more fun when more games were decided by not finding the right dual land in time. [/sarcasm]