Double-Faced Cards

[mcfarland]

There's a thread in the Modern forum, but just in case folks aren't browsing that regularly...

Double-faced cards (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/157b) are in Innistrad. :eek:

While we'll have to wait and see the power-level of cards featuring the mechanic, I think that it's a pretty bold step, design-wise. I enjoy the fact that the designers aren't afraid to step outside of bounds that most people assume are set in stone.

Drafting will be... chaotic.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Seems like it shits in the limited punch bowl.

I don't see where extra text space is worth not just using flip cards. Which are mechanically about the same thing as far as I can tell.

[Birkardo]

This mechanic is goddamn strange, and will cause a lot of problems: drafting at first.

[swoop]

its shit, I'd prefer flip cards.

[Redshift]

Seems like it shits in the limited punch bowl.

I don't see where extra text space is worth not just using flip cards. Which are mechanically about the same thing as far as I can tell.

Agreed...can't think of any good reason to do this over flip cards, and a lot of good reasons not to.

[Rizso]

The checklists will be there so you can proxy a 2sided card while drafting or without sleeves.

[Hanni]

This is the most retarded idea I've ever seen. So what do you do when you transform one of these, pull it out of its sleeve and put it back into its sleeve? Retarded.

[samurai_socks]

So foils will be foiled on both sides? That is just weird.

-Cheers-

[Humphrey]

Imagine a future, where you only play checklists in your maindeck

[Justin]

It's official. They have finally run out of ideas.

[Hanni]

I think they did this to try and kill off MWS.

[UnsungHero]

So on the checklist card card there is a card named Garruk Relentless. Assuming that Garruk Relentless is the new Garruk to go with the new art that was spoiled for him does this mean there will be a double faced planeswalker?

After seeing this mess cards like Chaos Orb and Shaharazard don't seem all that strange to me anymore.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Garruk is going to be the 5-ability planeswalker, 99% certainty.

[Zuriya]

Too bad there are no checklist cards like that:
[] Force of Will
[] Brainstorm
[] Mental Misstep
[] Show and Tell
...

That would be funny, playing a deck with only checklist cards.
--------
Drafting (werewolves) without giving away information will be so annoying.

[cdr]

Someone (Forsythe?) already revealed the 5-ability planeswalker is Liliana.

Maro's explanation of flip cards: https://twitter.com/#!/maro254 (scroll down to "I can't sleep" and read in reverse).

[Gheizen64]

Lol what a shitty mechanic. This officially make draft sucks.

[Hanni]

Mark Rosewater in his tweet says "Great design is not about clinging to the constraints of the past, but finding the opportunities of the future."

If you want to keep Magic fresh and new designs coming, I think replacing MaRo and LaPile would be way better for the game than coming up with shitty ideas like double faced cards, IMO.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Someone (Forsythe?) already revealed the 5-ability planeswalker is Liliana.

Maro's explanation of flip cards: https://twitter.com/#!/maro254 (scroll down to "I can't sleep" and read in reverse).


Great design is not about clinging to the constraints of the past, but finding the opportunities of the future.


"Take away the frame," I said, "and you're missing the point." If design leads by the heart, the head will follow.


But Magic without innovation will die. It is a game about exploration not just for all of you but for us as well.

God, what a pretentious load of twaddle. There's nothing new about the idea except having a greedier and clunkier execution, it's just flip. That's all it is. It's taking the flip mechanic and saying, "Well, what if we represented it visually this way instead of the other way."

What happens is you get more room to write on and fuck up limited. That is it. That is all that happens.

But it's nothing new at all, except the templating. You can call it a new mechanic but that doesn't make it so.


Every time Magic design has broken some former taboo, there was a group that initially fought it. Force of Will "made people quit".

In MaRo's reality, perhaps Wizards has an unblemished streak of good decisions. Actually I am almost certain that is how he views reality. But it's ridiculous.

[from Cairo]

Yea this looks really sloppy. The fact that the flip cards already had this mechanic executed better makes this a even odder choice on Wizard's part.

[rufus]

Yea this looks really sloppy. The fact that the flip cards already had this mechanic executed better makes this a even odder choice on Wizard's part.

Dunno. They might be trying to set up for different card backs. (Opportunities for the future and all that.)

[Nihil Credo]

For Constructed, I like these guys. Having to pack sleeves, and having to take the card out of it in play, may be a little annoying but it's probably worth the extra design space (even though the cards we've seen so far are ridiculously conservative with regards to the possibilities of transform. And the Werewolves in particular are disturbingly reminiscent of Rhystic). And Sealed is fine too, I guess?

But for DRAFT, Innistrad is going to be absolutely completely fucked up. I cannot possibly see how the "they're not secret information, but they're not public either" rule cold not turn draft tables into a clusterfuck. Consider:

- Every time I look at a new pile, I can't just fan the cards in front of me. I have to carefully check if there are any transform cards in there, and if there are and I'm not sure I want to reveal them I have to, uhm, palm them I guess? And hope I have very large hands? Not exactly easy to completely hide a backless card. Result: massive slowdown of drafting.

- If I decide I want to show a transform card... well, I'm at a draft table, not a two-player game. You can't keep an eye on eight players at the same time without ruining your concentration. But if I want my "signaling" to be strategically effective, I must make people notice that I'm passing or keeping that Werewolf. Every pack we'll end up with people trying to draw attention in the most obnoxious ways, perhaps outright shouting.

The silver lining in all of this is that Magic Online drafts will still work normally - though they basically become a different format from paper draft.

But, hey!, sleazy-looking booth babes! :facepalm:

http://a.yfrog.com/img808/7426/5rym.jpg

[lordofthepit]

I understand breaking design constraints if it means significantly opening up design space to allow for more creative mechanics, thereby enriching the game. But the classic Magic backs were so iconic to the game and simply made so much sense. Checklists can become a real headache. What if I have 3 copies of a double-faced card and want to play 4 copies? Can I play 4 copies? What if I have 4 copies, but I have 10 decks where I want playsets? Can I use these checklists as proxies and say "I have them at home"? It's not in Wizard's interests to go down this path.

And let's face it, the flip cards, which were also part of a shitty mechanic, were functionally the same thing. Introducing those unwieldy Kamigawa cards were not worth it for Nezumi Graverobber, so it stands to reason that breaking an even more iconic design constraint is not worth it for Innistrad cards.

And they did it for what? So some teenagers could flip over some goddamn werewolves? No decision has pissed me off more since they changed the card frames in Mirrodin.

[chags]

This just seems way too gimmicky

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I can only hope they follow this to its logical conclusion in the next set.

http://i.imgur.com/X4rA0.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zt6lS.jpg


Dunno. They might be trying to set up for different card backs. (Opportunities for the future and all that.)

About the most logical explanation I can think of. Garfield's been against having the same backs since square one, (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/78) and he was the lead design on Innistrad iirc.

Maybe they also really hate the old card backs. They've complained about having to keep the Deckmaster logo before. But this is a really bad way to get there.

[Koby]

Kamigawa 2.0?

[cdr]

Forsythe said today that there'll be a twoface card in every pack.

[DrJones]

Forsythe said today that there'll be a twoface card in every pack.Are you sure he wasn't talking about the proxy card?

[Dia_Bot]

If there is only one 2 faced card in every pack it could just be removed before drafting (much like the basic lands).
Still doesn't change the fact that this is a horrible horrible idea.

[Bruticus]

I actually thought it was fake at first, the template additions look slapped on. It's just designed horribly, (in more ways than one) that's all.

[(nameless one)]

Kamigawa 2.0?

Kinda like how we just had Mirrodin 2.0 and the next set after Innistrad is Ravnica 2.0?

[cdr]

Are you sure he wasn't talking about the proxy card?

No, he was not. I think the checklist replaces the land in 1/4 packs.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

For added appreciation of how much a rehash of Flip this is, go back and read MaRo's article of the time (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr142) about how they were trying to capture a Night/Day dynamic in Kamigawa. And are those Sun/Moon icons in the upper left of each transform card? Why yes, yes they are.

[DrJones]

No, he was not. I think the checklist replaces the land in 1/4 packs.
According to Aaron Forsythe, it's actually the opposite:

@gkStull I hope not much, as checklists replace basics in about 3/4 of ISD packs.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I hated Kamigawa (largely because I didn't care for the flavour or the art) and flip cards. These, I don't mind. In fact, they're kinda cool IMO. But they clearly introduce a whole slew of problems that it may have been better to avoid--and it really is just the same mechanic rehashed.

Question: how exactly will these interact with Maelstrom Pulse and Deed? I imagine that the cmc of a transformed card is the same as its other face, right? I'm less clear on Pulse, however.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Mark II

http://i.imgur.com/nUy96.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/nE5DB.jpg

[Hanni]

What's the interaction with these and Illusionary Mask? A 2/2 creature that the opponent can see what it is? Does it lose its special abilities?

[Squirrel]

i think i simply ignore those cards, hope they aren't Legacyplayable, and draft M12 until the next set.
I really liked Innistrad before those Transformers..

[Purgatory]

I like this idea, and I really like what I've seen from Innistrad so far. The artwork looks amazing, and the Transform ability, albeit gimmicky, can possibly be pretty cool (we've seen I think 4 out of the 20 cards that will have it?).

Though it can get clunky in constructed to remove the card from its sleeve and sleeve it back in a couple of times per game, I think it's worth it considering that the alternative would be Kamigawa-esque flip cards, which I really really hated. The design space when it comes to flip cards is limited practically by the amount of text you can cram into those tiny boxes, and with this they are able to explore more intricate mechanics in the cards. Despite the fact that none of the cards we've seen so far has really needed to use the Transform mechanic, I'm sure that Garruk will be one of the examples where it'll be needed - imagine a flip card Planeswalker with four or five abilities and trying to read all of them.

Overall, the look of Innistrad is amazing to me, since I have a bit of a crush on the romantic and gothic horror stories of writers such as Poe and Shelley, so the flavour and feel of a set with horror tropes is right up my alley. The Transform mechanic looks unneeded as of now, but the set has yet to be released, and more importantly, nobody here or, for that matter, anywhere outside of the RnD has played a single game of Magic with these cards yet. I'll wait for the set's release before I pass any final personal judgment on the cards in question.

[GGoober]

Wow this is a really disppointing 'mechanic'

It's not even creative, in fact it shows a lack of creativity to be able to maintain the classic traditions of the game while implementing their 'transform' mechanic.

What's next? A flip-open card when you flip open contains 2 cards in it?

[cdr]

Wizards released a feature on the rules for double-faced cards last night alongside the feature on Innistrad mechanics: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/157b


Question: how exactly will these interact with Deed? I imagine that the cmc of a transformed card is the same as its other face, right?
The converted mana cost of a permanent with the night-face active is zero, much like a face-down permanent. Each face uses zero information from the other face; the characteristics of the non-active face effectively don't exist.


Maelstrom Pulse?
The name of whatever face is active is the name of the permanent.


What's the interaction with these and Illusionary Mask? A 2/2 creature that the opponent can see what it is? Does it lose its special abilities?
It's not explicitly stated since it's a bit of a corner-case, but since double-faced cards can't be face-down, you can't cast them face down. You can choose it for Mask's ability, but you can't then cast it face-down.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean, in the raw English, there's actually two ways of playing it face down, not none.

[cdr]

I mean, in the raw English, there's actually two ways of playing it face down, not none.

This is Magic: the Gathering we're speaking, not English.

[the Thin White Duke]

ARGH!!!! I"VE BEEN PLAYING MAGIC SINCE BEFORE YOU WERE BORN, AND THEY"RE KILLING IT NOW!!! ARREEGGHH!!! I FEAR CHANGE!!! YOU DAMN KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
What's with all of the knee-jerk reactions? Why does every one "flip" (pun intended) out when something new comes down the pike...?
...Maybe because the new stuff ends up sucking ass...

P.S. I think this idea is going to end up with a lot of frustrated players instead of some demonstration of a dynamic new design.
I can foresee complaints about cheating if people, instead of pulling cards out of sleeves to flip them, people have sleeved up opposite sides and end up getting that stuff shuffled into decks or other chaos.
The checklist thing is fucking stoopid. I would avoid playing limited just for that fact.

[the Thin White Duke]

P.S.S. Maro seems to be selling the idea pretty hard on the Twitter. I guess he realized he was going to get a lot of push back, but maybe he knows something... like the mechanic IS going to suck.
I'm actually getting very interested about it the more I read, (but maybe that's the five cups of coffee talking).

[makochman]

WOW TCG used this "idea" for ages. (Except it did not cause problems.)

I'm rather ambivalent about this mechanic, but it does show they should fire a few people and hire some new blood.

[Rizso]

Well there is only 20 cards in the set that uses the mechanic so its ok, they didnt overdo it. Major and Testsubject looks incredible powerful.

[makochman]

Actually, this is really stupid.

Why aren't gold-bordered cards legal then? There's completely no reason not to legalize them.

And if I want to play 4 copies of a "transform" card, why would I ever need more than 2 copies and 2 checklists?

[Humphrey]

I want a Force of Will, Wasteland etc checklist, so i only need 1 playset and can proxy all of my other decks :D

[Zunam]

I was really looking forward to Draft with Innistrad but this new mechanic seems to cause more problems than fun.

For Constructed or Eternal play I think I can somehow handle pulling cards out of sleeves during matches but the fact that I will often forget to turn them back to the Day-side after the match (especially if the card ends up in the graveyard) annoys me quite a bit.

[kiblast]

Wait, so there will be foils that can't curl? OMFG TECHNOLOGY

[Koby]

Wait, so there will be foils that can't curl? OMFG TECHNOLOGY

Double sided foil eh? Seems like really heavy packs!

[cartoonist]

Wait, so there will be foils that can't curl? OMFG TECHNOLOGY

Betcha they'll warp into Mobius strip shapes. Or split and peel like crazy.

[cosme]

Wait, so there will be foils that can't curl? OMFG TECHNOLOGY

that's the real reason they did this they just got to many complains about that lol

[I am the brainwasher]

I wonder what they change the cards backs to on Magic-Online or are they just giving the full Information as you get a look at those? Weird.
Sadly it seems that other free platforms (MWS,Cockatrice) will face serious problems when it comes down to using these cards, correct me if thats simply not true.
I h8 that they changed the back of the cards, even if I do like the mechanics. I have to agree that they simply could have made the cards better in terms of space and development when it comes down to all that DayNnite Jazz.
N1@not curling foils^^.

[GradStudentGuy]

This is by far the largest design mistake in card layout wizards has done. Sleaving and un sleaving cards during event is problematic for two reasons. The actions increase the time needed to perform game actions and it increases wear on cards. If any chase mythic is a flip card it will be harder to keep the card in NM or SP conditions. The alternative of using a proxy card leaves an even worst taste in my mouth. If Wizards is going to introduce proxies at least open it up to the eternal formats. That way a player can play with a HP force of will or allow for their mox to stay SP or NM. By not allowing older cards to be proxied it seems like an emergency bandage fix for a problem they created themselves. I for one hope that there are not any eternal staples flip cards printed so they can be relegated to a shoe box after standard cycles.

On a side note I think it will be interesting if someone plays a flip card using Illusionary mask.

[ESG]

I abhor this. It's probably the worst design idea I've ever seen in Magic. These kind of radical changes ought to be voted on by players.

[Malchar]

So if you use checklists in your deck but don't have the actual cards, do you get a game loss? Do you have to have one actual card for each checklist that you use in a given deck?

Anyway, this seems like a fine idea. The only bad thing in my opinion is that drafting is a little bit harder. I'm still waiting for them to make 3D cards that you have to punch out and fold into different shapes.

[Gheizen64]

Aside from the cheating issues, card wearing down issues and the impossibility to draft issue, there's also the fact that this mean that gold bordered card (world championship deck) are now illegal only because wizards rolled a dice and decided so, since the back of the card isn't a deciding factor anymore (whereas it was explicitely stated that a card was legal only if it had the proper back). By the way this would be a legendary troll to the reserved list, make all gold bordered reprint legals and since they've been printed mostly before 2000 the no-reprint policy doesn't apply, lmao.



Seriously, who thought this was a good idea?

[dahcmai]

I'm only annoyed at how these interact with sleeves really. that's fine if they have a weird mechanic that is basically like a ton of other ones. Nice Threshold comparison Bearassassin lol. Funny, but it's true too.

It's basically going to be a pain to have these setting to the side like a token since putting it into a sleeve would be silly because once you play it, you have to slip it out of the sleeve every time you need to flip it over or you have to play with that checklist. Annoying card is annoying. Especially in the case of that one that flips when someone played a couple of spells. The blue one is basically just a leveler, the green one is a Flip card, and the black one is kind of a leveler also.

I'm just hoping I don't have to deal with these in Legacy. I'll be sad if I need to pick up 2 playsets of a card just so I can easily keep them sleeved and not have to use those checklists flip them out of the sleeve each time.

I really never liked flip cards, but I think I would have preferred a return of those over two faced cards.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Aside from the cheating issues, card wearing down issues and the impossibility to draft issue, there's also the fact that this mean that gold bordered card (world championship deck) are now illegal only because wizards rolled a dice and decided so, since the back of the card isn't a deciding factor anymore (whereas it was explicitely stated that a card was legal only if it had the proper back).


No, gold-boardered cards are banned as well.

102. Authorized Cards
Alpha cards (cards from the first print run of the core set) may be used in decks containing non-Alpha cards only if all cards are placed in completely opaque sleeves and only if the sleeves could not be considered marked. If sleeves are not used, Alpha cards may be used only in decks that consist exclusively of Alpha cards.

Participants may not use cards from special sets or supplements with alternate backs, squared corners or gold borders.(Examples: Collector’s Edition, Pro Tour Collector’s Set, World Championship decks.) Players may not use silver-bordered Unglued™ or Unhinged™ cards.Unglued and Unhinged basic land cards are allowed in sanctioned Magic tournaments.

Players may use cards from special sets and supplements with black- or white-bordered cards published by Wizards of the Coast that do not have alternate backs and/or squared corners. (Examples: the Anthologies™, Beatdown™, Battle Royale™, From the Vault: Dragons box sets). However, the card(s) must be otherwise legal to play in that tournament’s format.

[KevinTrudeau]

A black mark on what otherwise actually looks like a pretty cool set. Transform's incommodious use and somewhat blasphemous eradication of the unwritten (or possibly written, I don't know for sure) rule about the preservation of Magic's traditional card back will blow over in due time, but I'm afraid that its impact on in-person drafting will not, especially when you consider the fact that there will be a card with Transform in every single pack. The mechanic itself is quite interesting in terms of gameplay, and the double-sided cards will probably all be generally aesthetically pleasing, but utilizing multiple insipid proxies with only one distinguishing mark doesn't sound very fun. So, unfortunately, this appears to be another questionable decision, coming off of three straight dreadful Standard seasons, the controversial upholding of the Reserve List, the ratification of a fourth rarity, smaller set sizes, a poor Modern starting point, etc.

[Bignasty197]

This is the first time in 12 years of playing this game where I am literally disappointed to see a new block. I say burn this entire set and skip forward to our return to Ravnica. That was my favorite set anyways.

[Hanni]

This is the first time in 12 years of playing this game where I am literally disappointed to see a new block. I say burn this entire set and skip forward to our return to Ravnica. That was my favorite set anyways.

I think Urza's Block was my favorite, but I started during Mirage Block, so that might be nostalgia talking. Masques and Invasions were pretty smexy, too.

Return of Urza's anyone? Heh...

[Octopusman]

I'm here to also express my disappointment with this.
I love the set's flavor. It's a shame that I don't want any part of these double cards.

As others have said, I hope that none of these are tournament playable in Legacy.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

OH NO THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!

Seriously guys? This whining is insane. Personally, I think the double-faced cards are an amazing idea. Yes, they might get a little clunky in tourney play. Yes, unsleeving them is odd but you can just not resleeve it until it dies. Problem solved. The flavor on the cards is amazing though. Yes it is reminiscent of flip cards. But flip cards were ugly, confusing on their own, and so cluttered that I can't remember what a single piece of art looked like. And it opens the way for different colors after the transformation. We haven't seen even a sliver of the set, maybe save the world ending prophecies until the whole set is released?

On a better note, the set looks like its going to have a ton of good cards in it. I'm a little dissapointed in werewolves simply because anytime your opponent can choose what happens usually makes a card bad.

[NyxathidHorror]

Why fix what isn't BROKEN... (http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/features/11_fireice.jpg)

[Darkenslight]

Why fix what isn't BROKEN... (http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/features/11_fireice.jpg)

There's too many lines of text on that card. :p

ETA: iI kinda like these, but they're probably going to be a rules nightmare in high-level tournaments, just for the cheating opportunity alone.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

OH NO THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!

Seriously guys? This whining is insane. Personally, I think the double-faced cards are an amazing idea. Yes, they might get a little clunky in tourney play. Yes, unsleeving them is odd but you can just not resleeve it until it dies. Problem solved.

What a terrible solution. Why are you amazed by such a clunky and gawdy idea that requires so much workaround compared to other cards?


The flavor on the cards is amazing though. Yes it is reminiscent of flip cards.

It is literally the exact same mechanic.


But flip cards were ugly, confusing on their own, and so cluttered that I can't remember what a single piece of art looked like.

I disagree personally, but one has to do a cost-benefit analysis. It's not enough to say there were things about the flip cards you didn't like and go with the alternative. You have to actually make sure that the alternative is better. And in this case... not so much.


And it opens the way for different colors after the transformation.

There is literally no reason at all why this couldn't be done with flip cards using the exact same markers.


We haven't seen even a sliver of the set, maybe save the world ending prophecies until the whole set is released?

When even its defenders can't come up with more elegant lines of explanation than playing with the card unsleeved, or proxied, or "doing your best" to hide your pack while drafting, I'm not sure why we should hesitate to condemn a mechanic that is exactly identical to flip cards but worse in every practical function, just because some people find it more aesthetically appealing.

[Gui]

My opinion is that new mechanics, specially these complicated ones that requires workarounds and complex understanding of rules, restricts magic as a game for new players.

I know how they love new mechanics and such, but the already have plenty of room for design with the current ones. I would apreciate if they did a better job with them.

[Noman Peopled]

When even its defenders can't come up with more elegant lines of explanation than playing with the card unsleeved, or proxied, or "doing your best" to hide your pack while drafting, I'm not sure why we should hesitate to condemn a mechanic that is exactly identical to flip cards but worse in every practical function, just because some people find it more aesthetically appealing.
This. It's a good idea in principle, may easily play well, and doesn't reduce the space available for artwork to a miscroscopic dot, but if you need to jump through boring hoops that destroy your cards, get so much potential for misunderstandings and mistakes, and can't get the mechanic to interact with anything outside the block except maybe cantrips, you really have to ask yourself if it's worth the hassle from a design standpoint. Danger of cool things doesn't apply to players only.
What's with the "color circle" and the tiny arrow btw? Are those really necessary?

Oh well, at least transform doesn't interact with Illusionary Mask.

[Sharpened]

At this point, whining about the mechanic accomplishes nothing. It's not like you are going to prevent it from seeing print.

I'm concerned about this mechanic. I like it for its flavor, the flip cards dont capture the flavor the way this does. A split card could work, but again, this captures the flavor better. The logistics scare me. Having some information revealed during drafting seems fine. That doesn't strike me as a big deal. The sleeving/unsleeving/checklist issues all strike me as troublesome, but we shall see.

In theory, theory should work out the same as in practice. In practice, it doesn't. I'm interested in seeing how these cards function in practice, and untill I have them in my hands, I can't know for sure. Talking in absolutes at this point seems dumb.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Talking about how absolutely terrible this mechanic is may seem dumb, but don't be so quick to judge. Give it some time to see how you feel about it in practice.

[SpikeyMikey]

I have always been of the opinion that flavor should take a back seat to gameplay 100% of the time. That's why I have such a problem with people pushing the "collectability" aspect. When the prices on tournament necessary singles reach points where events are decided by deep pockets instead of deep intellects, that's a problem. When design pushes the limits on Timmy cards so far that the cards start showing up in Spike games, that's a problem (Eldrazi, BSC, etc.). When they push the aesthetics of the card into a place where it detracts from gameplay, that's a problem. If Magic were just freshly released today instead of being a game I've been involved in for a dozen years, there's no way I would take notice of the game. Wizards is really bad at what they do, but they're the biggest player in the market and as such have a great deal of inertia. They can make mistakes that would kill smaller TCGs on the spot.

I think that their intent is to try and make the game more marketable to young children; to capture the Pokemon/Yu-gi-Oh age crowd. They know they've got the older gamers hooked, after years and years and thousands or tens of thousands invested into this game, we're not going anywhere. So if they can gain market share by pissing us off, why not? Personally, I thought that the flip mechanic was a pretty shitty design to begin with. Coming back to the mechanic, only in a more egregious form, leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[clavio]

lol@Mystic Enforcer

I don't think it's that big of a deal. These double face cards suck but I doubt more than a couple make their way into legacy. I thought removing damage on the stack was going to be really shitty but it turns out that it barely affected the game at.

That said Maro's twitter is obviously nauseating.

And it does look like theyre out of ideas.

[Wanderlust]

The actions increase the time needed to perform game actions and it increases wear on cards. If any chase mythic is a flip card it will be harder to keep the card in NM or SP conditions.

Double-sleeving seems like a good solution to maintaining the condition of flip cards. Depending on what outer sleeves one is using, it can be a very quick, painless action to take a double-sleeved card out, flip it over, and put it back in.

[lolosoon]

it can be a very quick, painless action to take a double-sleeved card out, flip it over, and put it back in.
Love to see those CB-Top/Fetch/SFM/WereWolves-draw-machine.dec

[Koby]

I can't logically think why they wouldn't just template the transform cards as flip. Once you remove the 2 lines of text on each side of the card you end up with a card that looks like this:

Gustaf Sheepsherder :1::g:
Creature - Human Werewolf
Flip: no spells cast last turn
2/2
--FLIPPED--
Gustaf Werewolf
Creature - Werewolf
Flip: 2 spells cast
3/3

That's less text than Nezumi Graverobber and no one had trouble with that one.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Double-sleeving seems like a good solution to maintaining the condition of flip cards. Depending on what outer sleeves one is using, it can be a very quick, painless action to take a double-sleeved card out, flip it over, and put it back in.

It's a very quick, painless action for me to activate Sensei's Divining Top at the end of each of your turns and in response to each spell you play. Yet that was enough for it to be banned in modern, and for people to call for its banning in Legacy at various times in the last few years.

EDIT: Well, I will definitely NOT be participating in any form of limited magic while this abomination of a mechanic is involved (not that I was particularly interested in limited anyways).

[Hoojo]

I curious how this will work in the tournament scene, when so much time will be spent pulling a card out of its sleeve, flipping it over, and putting it back into its sleeve. I wonder if they'll come a point when they require you use the checklist cards because of time constraints.

Also, the checklists replace a land, the 15th card in the pack, BUT they aren't playable on there own; you must have a transform card to pair with it. They should have replaced a token or rules card with the checklist. Now some packs will only have 14 playable cards in them. Seems like a blatant oversight.

If there's a DFC in every pack, but only a checklist in every fourth, seems like there will be a shortage of checklists too.

[cdr]

Maro and Lapille, at a minimum, have come out saying they didn't like Kamigawa flip cards.

Maro: "Anyway, Duel Masters made double-faced cards a year or so back. They looked very cool and were quite popular. Tom LaPille had seen them recently, so when I asked how we could make the transformation theme work, Tom suggested we explore double-faced cards. Double-faced cards had plenty of splash going for them, but they had one giant hurdle: the lack of a Magic back. In order to make them we were going to have to solve a number of issues. (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/158)"

[Gui]

Will there be a shortage of Checklist cards? Or were they smart enough to push a checklist in every pack?

Cuz the best solution to draft, and imho, in general play, will be using the checklists, so there's got to be a lot of it.

[thickasabrick]

Will there be a shortage of Checklist cards? Or were they smart enough to push a checklist in every pack?

Cuz the best solution to draft, and imho, in general play, will be using the checklists, so there's got to be a lot of it.

Checklists replace lands in 3/4 of the packs.

The checklists make pragmatic sense, but just seem like such a bummer. Shuffle your deck, draw your opening cards and see: a few lands, a cool creature, some badass spells, and a couple of checklists.

[Grillo]

I just wish the new two-sided cards would count as a precedent to legalize gold bordered cards and collector's edition cards.

A few more legal cards circulating looks like a good thing. Specially when some of them are really expensive in their now legal forms (hello power 9).

[SpikeyMikey]

I just wish the new two-sided cards would count as a precedent to legalize gold bordered cards and collector's edition cards.

A few more legal cards circulating looks like a good thing. Specially when some of them are really expensive in their now legal forms (hello power 9).

Watch the speculators go nuts buying gold bordered Force of Wills and raising the prices to double what they currently are.

[Guy I Don't Know]

I think the best solution is to burn the double sided cards as soon as you see them. It will be like the sandwich punch game taken to a whole new level.

[Malchar]

I just hope that they reuse this feature in future blocks to make it worth the hassle of learning all the new rules (even though I know they won't).

[Grillo]

Watch the speculators go nuts buying gold bordered Force of Wills and raising the prices to double what they currently are.

Are they already? amazing.

On topic:
I really think the new transform ability doesn't add anything new to the table. And I think is very clunky.

I'm not saying MTG is dead or anything, but breaking the "physical" mechanics of the game in such a way seems wrong. Next thing will be to fold the cards in a certain way (origami style) or something like that.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Am I the only person that liked Kamigawa flip cards and wasn't confused by them?

Regardless, though, not liking the previous application of an idea is a shitty reason to fuck up the game.

The thing is that the back of a Magic card has a lot of functional use, it represents you not knowing what the fuck a card is. Yet now these stupid transform cards exist in some weird quantum state where they have a card back in hand or your library, or are supposed to, or when you exile them under Bottled Cloister or whatever, but don't have one when you try to put them in play with Illusionary Mask? Or flip them with Ixidron?

And these just straight up can't go in some casual formats like Cube or Pile. People that don't track the game are going to stare at a card for five minutes and not figure out what the fuck Transform does and not think to desleeve the fucking thing.

That's probably my least favorite aspect of the game, incidentally, sleeving and desleeving things, I'm glad they made a mechanic that pushes it for no discernible gain.

[Gui]

What happens if you double-sleeve only the transform cards? I don't like the idea of double-sleeving, but maybe stealing buying a few perfect size sleeves just for these is not a terrible idea.

Can this be trouble with the judges?

[CorpT]

What happens if you double-sleeve only the transform cards? I don't like the idea of double-sleeving, but maybe stealing buying a few perfect size sleeves just for these is not a terrible idea.

Can this be trouble with the judges?

So you can cut directly to it every time? What is this helping? So you don't beat up your double faced cards sleeving and unsleeving? Seems fairly unnecessary.

[Gui]

So you can cut directly to it every time? What is this helping? So you don't beat up your double faced cards sleeving and unsleeving? Seems fairly unnecessary.

Yes, so that I don't destroy them... I am sure transforming 2-3 times every game, removing and adding to sleeve again every time, I will certaingly tear them (exagerating, but still, unecessary stress). I don't know how the perfect size sleeve looks like inside a normal size sleeve, is it perceptible? Can a Judge be called on that?

[rufus]

The thing is that the back of a Magic card has a lot of functional use, it represents you not knowing what the fuck a card is. Yet now these stupid transform cards exist in some weird quantum state where they have a card back in hand or your library, or are supposed to, or when you exile them under Bottled Cloister or whatever, but don't have one when you try to put them in play with Illusionary Mask? Or flip them with Ixidron?

And these just straight up can't go in some casual formats like Cube or Pile. People that don't track the game are going to stare at a card for five minutes and not figure out what the fuck Transform does and not think to desleeve the fucking thing.

Honestly, this is such an ugly mechanic that, if they had been printed during the same era, transform cards would probably share a spot on the vintage ban list with Shahrazad, Chaos Orb, Falling Star and ante cards.

...wonder if read-as-written the transform cards are 'marked'.

[CorpT]

Yes, so that I don't destroy them... I am sure transforming 2-3 times every game, removing and adding to sleeve again every time, I will certaingly tear them (exagerating, but still, unecessary stress). I don't know how the perfect size sleeve looks like inside a normal size sleeve, is it perceptible? Can a Judge be called on that?

It is very, very easy to cut directly to a double sleeved card in a deck without other double sleeved cards. Very easy. If I saw someone with that, I would immediately call a judge and you would likely get a penalty for marked cards.

[Gui]

It is very, very easy to cut directly to a double sleeved card in a deck without other double sleeved cards. Very easy. If I saw someone with that, I would immediately call a judge and you would likely get a penalty for marked cards.

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know ^^

[SpikeyMikey]

Are they already? amazing.

On topic:
I really think the new transform ability doesn't add anything new to the table. And I think is very clunky.

I'm not saying MTG is dead or anything, but breaking the "physical" mechanics of the game in such a way seems wrong. Next thing will be to fold the cards in a certain way (origami style) or something like that.

Not that I'm aware of, I'm just saying, with the way the speculators went rampant when Modern was unveiled at the community cup, it wouldn't surprise me if they did.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Yes, so that I don't destroy them... I am sure transforming 2-3 times every game, removing and adding to sleeve again every time, I will certaingly tear them (exagerating, but still, unecessary stress). I don't know how the perfect size sleeve looks like inside a normal size sleeve, is it perceptible? Can a Judge be called on that?

Wow, if you are that worried just buy 8 of the single and sleeve them up four with the front outward and the other four with the back outward, then just swap them. It's not like the transform cards are going to be expensive.

[dahcmai]

Now that I think about it some more, the double faced cards present a problem to card sleeve manufacturers also. Some of those sleeves you can see through just enough to make out that it's a Magic card in them. It's not easy to see it, but the Double Faced cards will be very obvious in those types of sleeves. Sadly, it's the textured sleeves that are easiest to see through. Figures it would be the ones people like a lot since they wear out slowly. At least my KMC's will still be good, but some people who use Ultra Pro will have that problem.

[Nihil Credo]

It's not like the transform cards are going to be expensive.New Garruk is a 3G transform card.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So is there any reason I couldn't use proxies for my entire deck, if checklists are allowed? Like, say I just don't want to shuffle my duals etc. and keep them on the side, and present my opponent with a deck of 60 proxies. I mean clearly the rules don't allow that but since we've already gone down this road, why not?

[Grillo]

Now that I think about it some more, the double faced cards present a problem to card sleeve manufacturers also. Some of those sleeves you can see through just enough to make out that it's a Magic card in them. It's not easy to see it, but the Double Faced cards will be very obvious in those types of sleeves. Sadly, it's the textured sleeves that are easiest to see through. Figures it would be the ones people like a lot since they wear out slowly. At least my KMC's will still be good, but some people who use Ultra Pro will have that problem.

Ultra Pro textured red sleeves are totally see through.

[hyperchord24]

Excellent point IBA. I'm guessing since the checklist cards are official magic cards, having a checklist with the dual lands on it won't be tournament legal. But the question needs to be asked to WotC. The checklist card is a proxy.

Are you going to have to show proof that you own the double-faced cards before a tourney? What if you "borrowed" them from a friend, but your friend decided to use his physical copies? Are your checklist cards not valid anymore?

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Excellent point IBA. I'm guessing since the checklist cards are official magic cards, having a checklist with the dual lands on it won't be tournament legal. But the question needs to be asked to WotC. The checklist card is a proxy.

Are you going to have to show proof that you own the double-faced cards before a tourney? What if you "borrowed" them from a friend, but your friend decided to use his physical copies? Are your checklist cards not valid anymore?


Did you even bother to read the article.



To use the checklist card, set your double-faced card aside and make a mark on the checklist card next to the name of the double-faced card it represents. Be sure to use a writing implement that won't be visible through the back of the checklist card, and to mark only one double-faced card name on each checklist card.

Only official checklist cards may be used to stand in for double-faced cards in a deck. If you use a checklist card to represent any of the double-faced cards in your deck, you must use checklist cards to represent all of them.

You'll use the checklist card any time it's important to keep the identity of your card secret—in other words, when it's in your library, in your hand, or exiled face down. You'll switch to the double-faced card when the card is on the stack, on the battlefield, in the graveyard, or exiled face up.

Any time a double-faced card is visible—whether because it's in a public zone, because it's revealed (say, by Telepathy), or because it's being looked at by a player due to an effect (say, Coercion)—the players who can see it can see both faces. Any player who can look at a checklist card in a hidden zone may look at the double-faced card it represents.

[rufus]

Any time a double-faced card is visible—whether because it's in a public zone, because it's revealed (say, by Telepathy), or because it's being looked at by a player due to an effect (say, Coercion)—the players who can see it can see both faces. Any player who can look at a checklist card in a hidden zone may look at the double-faced card it represents.

Can I look at double faced chards if I *might* have a checklist card in a hidden zone? Is there a limit to the number of double-faced cards that can be brought in or looked at?

The checklist mechanic seems like it's open to all kinds of clever cheating... are there going to be official rules on how the cards have to be marked? (What happens if someone has a card with half a dozen pips marked?)

[hyperchord24]

Did you even bother to read the article.

"Any player who can look at a checklist card in a hidden zone may look at the double-faced card it represents."

This assumes that the checklist card is to be made available by the player who owns the physical card. You know what happens when one assummes . . .

[TooCloseToTheSun]

"Any player who can look at a checklist card in a hidden zone may look at the double-faced card it represents."

This assumes that the checklist card is to be made available by the player who owns the physical card. You know what happens when one assummes . . .

What?

Like if I thoughtseize you and you have a checklist in your hand then I get to look at the card it represents.


Can I look at double faced chards if I *might* have a checklist card in a hidden zone? Is there a limit to the number of double-faced cards that can be brought in or looked at?

The checklist mechanic seems like it's open to all kinds of clever cheating... are there going to be official rules on how the cards have to be marked? (What happens if someone has a card with half a dozen pips marked?)

"and to mark only one double-faced card name on each checklist card."

[hyperchord24]

^Yeah. What happens if you can't produce the card? The caster of thoughtseize is allowed to see the double faced card, but it doesn't say the owner is the one to have to produce it. Does it? I know it'll just lead to a game loss if you can't. But it is interesting that they'd just say "set it aside." That's such a open statement.

Furthermore, if your opponent sees you looking at extra cards (with double faces, mind you, so you sort of have to be sneaky about it to not allow your opponent to see the cards), doesn't that look suspicious and give away that you have double faced cards in your deck?

[Nihil Credo]

^Yeah. What happens if you can't produce the card? The caster of thoughtseize is allowed to see the double faced card, but it doesn't say the owner is the one to have to produce it. Does it? I know it'll just lead to a game loss if you can't. But it is interesting that they'd just say "set it aside." That's such a open statement.

You seem under the impression that the checklist cards are proxies. They aren't. They're basically bookmarks.

Also all we've gotten so far are summaries and plain-English explanations, not carefully worded Comprehensive / Floor Rules. Until we do, you can't go play dicklawyer over precise turns of phrases.


Furthermore, if your opponent sees you looking at extra cards (with double faces, mind you, so you sort of have to be sneaky about it to not allow your opponent to see the cards), doesn't that look suspicious and give away that you have double faced cards in your deck?Yes. Just like flipping through your sideboard suggests that you have just drawn a Wish, or that you are trying to bluff having one.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's a physical representation of a card played in a deck other than the card itself, so yes it's a proxy.

[Nihil Credo]

http://i.imgur.com/PJS6T.png
http://i.imgur.com/tLUiz.png

[DrJones]

Is against the rules to reply to that post with just a "lol"?

[Gui]

It's a physical representation of a card played in a deck other than the card itself, so yes it's a proxy.

It's not a proxy, because you need to actually have the phisical card with you in order to use the checklist card. If you have 4 checklist cards, you need to have 4 of these cards with you during the matchs.

[hyperchord24]

Oh. Just rule summaries, okay.

A checklist card is as much a proxy as a car is an automobile. They have the same definitions. But that doesn't matter. If a Rules Manager wants to say that checklist cards are not proxies (if only to not let the flood gates of debating wether or not to allow proxies open), then it's his right.

EDIT: @ Gui: Which brings it back to IBA's point about not wanting to shuffle up his actual duals. He can have the card on display (which will likely be part of the official rules), but the "checklist card" in his deck.

[SpikeyMikey]

It's not a proxy, because you need to actually have the phisical card with you in order to use the checklist card. If you have 4 checklist cards, you need to have 4 of these cards with you during the matchs.

It is a proxy. To go back to gold bordered FoWs, even if I have regular Forces with me, if I'm playing gold-bordered ones in a deck, that's against the rules. IBA is right, they are sanctioned proxies. Whether that actually means dickall is up for debate, but the checklist cards are proxies; a proxy is just a stand in for the actual thing.

[Gui]

EDIT: @ Gui: Which brings it back to IBA's point about not wanting to shuffle up his actual duals. He can have the card on display (which will likely be part of the official rules), but the "checklist card" in his deck.

Well, sure, as long as he has the actual card during the match and he uses the corresponding checklist printed for duas. xD

[lordofthepit]

OH NO THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!

Seriously guys? This whining is insane. Personally, I think the double-faced cards are an amazing idea. Yes, they might get a little clunky in tourney play. Yes, unsleeving them is odd but you can just not resleeve it until it dies. Problem solved. The flavor on the cards is amazing though. Yes it is reminiscent of flip cards. But flip cards were ugly, confusing on their own, and so cluttered that I can't remember what a single piece of art looked like. And it opens the way for different colors after the transformation. We haven't seen even a sliver of the set, maybe save the world ending prophecies until the whole set is released?

On a better note, the set looks like its going to have a ton of good cards in it. I'm a little dissapointed in werewolves simply because anytime your opponent can choose what happens usually makes a card bad.

This design is so bad that it's worth complaining about. Since I started playing in 1998, only two things have made me facepalm as hard: the revamped cardfaces in 2002 and these double-sided cards.

I quit the game in 2002. I think these double-faced cards are pretty bad, but the rest of the game offers enough to be excited about that I'm not threatening to quit or anything. Still, it's understandable that people would want to vent about this, and I'm surprised we're only on 3 pages.

[hyperchord24]

Well, sure, as long as he has the actual card during the match and he uses the corresponding checklist printed for duas. xD
Not that this line of reasoning will ever amount to anything because judges would never go for it. And if they did (to make a point), they'd be banned if the DCI ever got wind of it.

[Einherjer]

I quit the game in 2002. I think these double-faced cards are pretty bad, but the rest of the game offers enough to be excited about that I'm not threatening to quit or anything. Still, it's understandable that people would want to vent about this, and I'm surprised we're only on 3 pages.

6 pages already...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

http://i.imgur.com/PJS6T.png
http://i.imgur.com/tLUiz.png

"Yes it is."

- Jack Elgin

[cdr]

6 pages already...

Not everyone uses the same pagination setting, but yes, 6 by the default AFAIK.


"Yes it is."

- Jack Elgin

So go argue on Twitter. I'd watch!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's not a proxy, because you need to actually have the phisical card with you in order to use the checklist card. If you have 4 checklist cards, you need to have 4 of these cards with you during the matchs.

That doesn't mean it's not a proxy. That just means it's a proxy for a card you actually own.

[Gui]

That doesn't mean it's not a proxy. That just means it's a proxy for a card you actually own.

Well, ok. Makes sense. Still different from the usual view of proxy, in which one print a black lotus he doesn't own to use in his deck. But ok, still a proxy.

[Hummingbird TG]

So, are there foil checklists? (else, they've just made pimping rather difficult) :wink:

[Gheizen64]

Man the more i think about it, the more i think how shitty this design is. They did this basically only to have two card images, because there were an infinite way of doing this without breaking one of the basic rule of the game. The blue creature is a fucking leveler. It's a flip card for no reason. As a leveler it would even have LESS LINES OF TEXT. The green creatures have all a lot of basically unnecessary and badly designed abilities only for the sake of justifying the flip mechanic (see how much space it free out!). Dear god. Not usable in casual, need special sleeves for tournament play, basically allow sanctioned proxies in the game, make for easier cheating, give out information since you have a deck with more cards that it should if you play with checklists, sigh.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So go argue on Twitter. I'd watch!

Twitter is for lameos.

http://i.imgur.com/46SzO.jpg

[SpikeyMikey]

Man the more i think about it, the more i think how shitty this design is. They did this basically only to have two card images, because there were an infinite way of doing this without breaking one of the basic rule of the game. The blue creature is a fucking leveler. It's a flip card for no reason. As a leveler it would even have LESS LINES OF TEXT. The green creatures have all a lot of basically unnecessary and badly designed abilities only for the sake of justifying the flip mechanic (see how much space it free out!). Dear god. Not usable in casual, need special sleeves for tournament play, basically allow sanctioned proxies in the game, make for easier cheating, give out information since you have a deck with more cards that it should if you play with checklists, sigh.

Well, it's strictly superior to a level creature; level has to be done at sorcery speed. The blue creature will be quite playable in Standard as an early blocker and late game win-con. Expect it to be on par with say Grave Titan.

However, that doesn't change the fact that a flip card would've fit the needs perfectly, allowed them to have their two artworks and wouldn't have required them to do something as retarded as a double card.

[KevinTrudeau]

MaRo ends his article with:

"Until then, may you know the joy of breaking a taboo."

Since it seems like breaking a taboo of some sort is commonplace among sets that he's part of the design team, isn't taboo-breaking not so taboo anymore? Also, this just pretty much confirms that Transform wasn't made with the betterment of the game in mind as the design team's number one goal. Goddammit Rosewater. I expected better from you, Garfield.

[rufus]

Well, it's strictly superior to a level creature; level has to be done at sorcery speed. The blue creature will be quite playable in Standard as an early blocker and late game win-con. Expect it to be on par with say Grave Titan.

The activation criteria are different, and it goes up and down, and ... Mostly, I'd say, it's different than level up. Don't get me started on how lame it was to have every level up cost be just mana. Besides (gratuitously) breaking the card back, there's nothing particularly bad about the transform mechanic....also nothing particularly innovative.

[Aggro_zombies]

MaRo ends his article with:

"Until then, may you know the joy of breaking a taboo."

Since it seems like breaking a taboo of some sort is commonplace among sets that he's part of the design team, isn't taboo-breaking not so taboo anymore? Also, this just pretty much confirms that Transform wasn't made with the betterment of the game in mind as the design team's number one goal. Goddammit Rosewater.
You realize that this is the guy who thought poison was a good thing to bring back, right? Poison, the mechanic whose central premise is being a second life total that's half the size of your first one and counts up instead of down?

[quadibloc]

My initial reaction to the DFCs was, "NO! You had no good reason not to do this with flip cards".

But DFCs are more exciting, and having the space for more text and art does matter. I think that with the checklist cards, Wizards has indeed done things right for making those cards work. So, after reading Mark Rosewater's article on the reasoning behind this, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

For draft, however, since there is still a problem, there is a solution. The following variant of booster draft should be allowed: whoever opens a pack gets to keep the DFC from it, in addition to the card he drafts. DFCs may not be included in decks and used in play.

There. All problems solved.

[Gheizen64]

My initial reaction to the DFCs was, "NO! You had no good reason not to do this with flip cards".

But DFCs are more exciting, and having the space for more text and art does matter. I think that with the checklist cards, Wizards has indeed done things right for making those cards work. So, after reading Mark Rosewater's article on the reasoning behind this, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

For draft, however, since there is still a problem, there is a solution. The following variant of booster draft should be allowed: whoever opens a pack gets to keep the DFC from it, in addition to the card he drafts. DFCs may not be included in decks and used in play.

There. All problems solved.

All problem solved how? Wouldn't someone have less card then? Also it would give a disadvantage to one who draft in the sense he opened a 14 card booster. It's not like you always have 1 DFC for booster.

[Cire]

All problem solved how? Wouldn't someone have less card then? Also it would give a disadvantage to one who draft in the sense he opened a 14 card booster. It's not like you always have 1 DFC for booster.

I thought you do?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

None of the cards spoiled so far needed to be double-faced for text space reasons. Garruk probably will be but that's a terrible reason, Planeswalkers are complex enough without slapping another incredibly complex mechanic onto them. Like whatever the problems with flip cards people had, there's no way to argue that Nezumi Graverobber or Budoka Gardener or Erayo weren't complex cards.

[DrJones]

They actually play much better than flip cards once they're in play, it's just that they are incredibly clunky while they're not in the battlefield. I think they should have went with overlay from your sideboard or a new game zone, because the current implementation asks a lot for some players to enjoy.

Then again, I think tokens and counters already ask a lot for the players and they seem to enjoy it, so you never know. Time with tell if it as well received as morph, or like coin flipping and dice throwing.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

All problem solved how? Wouldn't someone have less card then? Also it would give a disadvantage to one who draft in the sense he opened a 14 card booster. It's not like you always have 1 DFC for booster.

Yes you do, there is one in every pack. It takes the place of a common, so you could technically get 3 rares in one pack.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

Shouldn't we assume they have planned somehow for drafts though? No idea what the solution might be(although "guy who opens pack always takes DFC" sounds possible) but it's not like they didn't have this same discussion at some point.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Shouldn't we assume they have planned somehow for drafts though? No idea what the solution might be(although "guy who opens pack always takes DFC" sounds possible) but it's not like they didn't have this same discussion at some point.

From the article linked on the first page.


Drafting with Double-Faced Cards

Due to their unique nature, double-faced cards work differently from other cards in Booster Draft.

During a booster draft, double-faced cards are open information that players are neither penalized for revealing nor required to conceal. Players may reveal either face of a double-faced card to other drafters during the draft. A player may take reasonable steps to conceal the identity of a double-faced card if he or she wishes, but is not required to do so. However, players must still remain seated during the draft.

As before, the faces of single-faced Magic cards are not open information, and revealing them or attempting to see them will result in penalties.

As of the release of Innistrad, a player may place a newly drafted card anywhere on or in his or her pile of drafted cards. This is true of all cards, not only double-faced cards or in drafts that include double-faced cards. If desired, a player may start his or her pile of drafted cards with a basic land or checklist card and put any drafted double-faced cards underneath it.

[Nihil Credo]

The one thing that eases my concerns about Innistrad Booster Draft is that it presumably did manage to gain the approval of Development draft tables with about a thousand Pro Points between them.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The one thing that eases my concerns about Innistrad Booster Draft is that it presumably did manage to gain the approval of Development draft tables with about a thousand Pro Points between them.

Did you read Rosewater's article? Development tried to kill the cards.

[Ben]

I think they should print tokens for the "back side" of those double cards, even that this mechanic is pretty retarded. I'd much rather they stick with the old flip mechanic.

[GGoober]

This has made me retract the statement that "R&D has done a fantastic job in bringing new ideas/cards/mechanics in recent years, if you take a look at how the game is recently v.s. a few years back, it amazes me how they never run out of ideas to grow and expand the game".

So there you go, WotC, worst design ever. I know you don't want to recycle the concept of 'flip' cards from Kamigawa, but what you've done here isn't really 'being creative and breaking traditions', it's called 'finding excuses to your bad design because you think you have a cool idea and really want it implemented but we all know it blows, hard'.

Alright, aside from the rant, I just want to add that Maro sucks, maybe that's because he's a green creature that's overcosted.

[thickasabrick]

My initial reaction to the DFCs was, "NO! You had no good reason not to do this with flip cards".

But DFCs are more exciting, and having the space for more text and art does matter. I think that with the checklist cards, Wizards has indeed done things right for making those cards work. So, after reading Mark Rosewater's article on the reasoning behind this, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

For draft, however, since there is still a problem, there is a solution. The following variant of booster draft should be allowed: whoever opens a pack gets to keep the DFC from it, in addition to the card he drafts. DFCs may not be included in decks and used in play.

There. All problems solved.

So nobody gets to play with Garruk in draft ever? Or any of the other cards with the hallmark mechanic of the set? That seems like a problem unsolved.

[Nihil Credo]

Did you read Rosewater's article? Development tried to kill the cards.
It only said that there was resistance within Development, not that Design had to fight Development for it. We'll get the full story on Friday, but I presume that Erik Lauer didn't pull a Stalin on the issue (i.e. that in the end a majority was OK with DFCs).

[Sturtzilla]

I feel real conflicted about this idea. I can't help but wonder why they didn't make flip cards that could flip back. It would accomplish the same goals of flavor and mechanics, yet leave limited, especially draft formats, unmolested. It was like they were all high and decided to flip the card about the wrong axis... "Hey guys let flip the card about the x-axis rather then the y axis! LOLZ!" It seems really clunky as far as sleeving and unsleeving when something flips. I know that, while playing, I don't want to have to take a card out the sleeve and then replace it backwards at all, more-less, multiple times over the course of a game. Although having two foiled sides is kinda neat but really only from a novelty standpoint. I just have to say that I like that they are trying to incorporate new ideas into the game, but it really seems like they could have done this a bit better.

[Guy I Don't Know]

This is like we are playing pokemon and we evolve our pokemon... I loved pokemon back in the 90s but at least they didn't print the cards with the evolved forms on the backs.

Seeing how Mayor of Avabruck could be playable in legacy alongside Tangle wire and Trinisphere, I think I will make a deck called Let's Play Pokemon!

[Ben]

In MaRo's article he did mention that Tom LaPille gave the suggestion of having Magic copying Duel Masters.
So I guess we can't put all the blames on MaRo.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

I think it looks fun, if a little messy logistically. I haven't played in about a year and a half, but I think the flavor of this set and the uniqueness of this "mechanic" will pull me back in

[dahcmai]

Another point I thought about is making a bit of conversation around here. If you have a checklist card in the deck for a card that's main deck. Where is the actual card going to be? Ah, probably in your deck box with your sideboard, right? This makes for an elegant cheating method if you see it. I have a feeling people need to start using different colored sleeves than the sideboard cards for these double cards or else you're going to get these two mixed up and some unscrupulous ones might do it on purpose.

I know if I end up using these cards in tournaments, I'll be using a different color for anything that's not being actually used in the deck and is only sitting off to the side for representation. It's just asking for a judge call. To be honest, I think I'll probably just end up flipping them in and out of the sleeve so I can just not have to play with the stupid checklist cards in the first place.

damn, this double face thing is going to be a pain. I actually like the flavor of it, but it sure has a lot of problems with it.

[Richard Cheese]

Can't wait to get penalized for forgetting to flip one back between games/rounds. Here's hoping they all suck!

Either that, or I'll just make a banding/humility/trinisphere/double face deck and call it Annoy-O-Tron.

[The Treefolk Master]

Can't wait to get penalized for forgetting to flip one back between games/rounds. Here's hoping they all suck!

Either that, or I'll just make a banding/humility/trinisphere/double face deck and call it Annoy-O-Tron.

Don't forget Illusionary mask!

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Its not the same thing than flip. A flipped card never turns back.

Also someone mentioned problems with MWS. I cant see them.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Its not the same thing than flip. A flipped card never turns back.

It would take five seconds of editing to change that and have no functioning impact on Kamigawa cards, which lack a trigger to unflip.


Also someone mentioned problems with MWS. I cant see them.

Me neither. Because they can simply put the text from the transform cards onto the flip card templates.

[KevinTrudeau]

I know if I end up using these cards in tournaments, I'll be using a different color for anything that's not being actually used in the deck and is only sitting off to the side for representation. It's just asking for a judge call. To be honest, I think I'll probably just end up flipping them in and out of the sleeve so I can just not have to play with the stupid checklist cards in the first place.

The method that makes the most sense to me is to play with proxies (in both Limited and Constructed), make it really easy to determine which card is which if you're running multiple proxies representing different cards (like by crossing out all other boxes with Sharpie or something), and bringing the actual double-faced card out of your deck box in a clear penny sleeve so you won't have to keep unsleeving and resleeving it.

The actual process of flipping won't be that bad, I'm just pissed that they had to fuck over draft like that just to make a "revolutionary" new mechanic.

[Rizso]

Don't forget Illusionary mask!

Thought you arent allowed to put a 2sided card into play with Mask or flip with Ixidron.

[Richard Cheese]

Thought you arent allowed to put a 2sided card into play with Mask or flip with Ixidron.

Annoy-O-Tron wins again! It feeds off your confusion!

[Ben]

Thought you arent allowed to put a 2sided card into play with Mask or flip with Ixidron.

The side with mana cost should be the side the card is flipped into with illusionary mask

I don't think you can "flip" to the transformed side unless you are transforimng the card by meeting the transformation trigger condition.

[rufus]

Thought you arent allowed to put a 2sided card into play with Mask or flip with Ixidron.

The latest revision actually has you playing them - so they can be countered, are affected by 3-sphere, and so on.

[KevinTrudeau]

Sample Innistrad hand:

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/4532/sampleinnistradhand.jpg

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It still staggers me that they created a mechanic that actually adds literally nothing new to the game's mechanics (Flip is exactly identical for all mechanical, in-game purposes), and either requires that you constantly desleeve and resleeve it and/or asks you to not actually play with the card, but with a proxy for it.

It's a dead horse at this point but it's mind-boggling to think that I apped for a job with these people and was turned down. It's like finding out your ex is fucking Homeless Joe.

[Rizso]

The latest revision actually has you playing them - so they can be countered, are affected by 3-sphere, and so on.

Thats not what I meant, you arent allowed to cast a 2sided card with the mask at all. Its not a legal play.

[Royal Ass.]

I think realistically once everyone is familiar with the flip cards, people will just use a token or some object to put on top of the card to signify that the card is "flipped." If someone really needs to read the card text you can pull it out of the sleeve, but it seems pretty reasonable to place some sort physical object on the card to show that the flipped side of the card is in play.

[CorpT]

I think realistically once everyone is familiar with the flip cards, people will just use a token or some object to put on top of the card to signify that the card is "flipped." If someone really needs to read the card text you can pull it out of the sleeve, but it seems pretty reasonable to place some sort physical object on the card to show that the flipped side of the card is in play.

It's not like we're not already used to dealing with Maro/LaPille's mistakes. What's one more to deal with, right?

[Comrade]

I can understand the flavor they are trying to go for here, a human 'transforming' into a werewolf or whatever. My issue with it, other than the rules complications that will constantly arise and just general unnecessary convolution of the game, is that it doesn't belong in MTG.

Perhaps if WotC wanted to make another vampires versus werewolves versus whatever movie monster type game to cash in on the latest pre-teen fad, then that's fine. Stick this oh so awesome taboo breaking mechanic into that game. As this particular flavor doesn't really fit well into this game the way they are doing it.

Anyone notice that Legends and even more so, The Dark, had a better spooky and dark flavor than this? No weird mechanics, no proxy cards, no added hours of kitchen table complications. Not really so much for Shadowmoor though, I don't really know WTF that even was. Spooky hobbits or something? I don't care and I don't think anyone else did either. It was almost like Brian Froud meets a steaming pile.

It would probably be another thing if these double faced cards would appear in all, or even most, future sets. That way players would have a reason to get used to learning all this extra nonsense and dealing with even more chaff to push the learning curve a little higher. It seems WotC is more eager to churn out new mechanics with every block than to refine and work with some of the better ones they already have. So they're sacrificing quality for quantity, at the expense of game play and enjoyability.

I think it would be a refreshing change of pace to have a whole block designed and developed by a random group of unrelated college students. Screw flavor, screw continuity, screw the color pie, screw unspoken gentlemen's agreements, screw sets being made years in advance, screw all of this commercial pre-packaged watered down shit that they keep flooding the market with. Bring back sets with a bunch of moderately powerful cards, instead of sets with a few insanely expensive choice mythics and little else. Bring back a $50 or less competitive standard deck, something like U/G Madness was, not a block full of crappy and 'intuitive' gimmicks.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I think it would be a refreshing change of pace to have a whole block designed and developed by a random group of unrelated college students. Screw flavor, screw continuity, screw the color pie, screw unspoken gentlemen's agreements, screw sets being made years in advance, screw all of this commercial pre-packaged watered down shit that they keep flooding the market with. Bring back sets with a bunch of moderately powerful cards, instead of sets with a few insanely expensive choice mythics and little else. Bring back a $50 or less competitive standard deck, something like U/G Madness was, not a block full of crappy and 'intuitive' gimmicks.

This. I would actually be interested in standard and limited again if this happened.

[The Wolf]

This. I would actually be interested in standard and limited again if this happened.

There are a ton of these that already exist. Go to the salvation card creation forums, connect your work printer and go to town. There are sets made just for drafting and have images and everything.


This flip idea seems clunky to me, but they have already used it very successfully in a different game they have so I'm will to give it a try. If you’re not using sleeves for your draft decks your doing it wrong anyway.

[cdr]

I think it would be a refreshing change of pace to have a whole block designed and developed by a random group of unrelated college students.

This was basically how Legends, The Dark, Homelands, etc were designed.

[Richard Cheese]

I propose a community-driven format called "Ancient". Old card frames only, same banned list as Legacy (initially), no restricted list. No Portal or any other promo/special sets. Just having some fun like back in the day, with cards that don't look like shit. Of course, the meta would probably stagnate into a handful of good decks, but maybe some kind of rolling ban cycle could keep things fresh.

[metamet]

I actually just posted a link to this article as an article discussion, but Forrest Ryan contemplates the headache that may be drafting in an article this morning:

The Horrors of Drafting Innistrad: From FNM to Pro, The Genre’s Gone Too Far (http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/08/the-horrors-of-drafting-innistrad-from-fnm-to-pro-the-genres-gone-too-far/)

Although a (virtual) musing, it sounds to me that there ferments a whole slew of competitive and technical headaches that may come along with drafting a set full of "free" information.

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

Personally, I think the balance is definitely pushed out from under us. p1p1 being X flip card is definitely NOT something you want your fellow drafters to know.

[Royal Ass.]

I propose a community-driven format called "Ancient". Old card frames only, same banned list as Legacy (initially), no restricted list. No Portal or any other promo/special sets. Just having some fun like back in the day, with cards that don't look like shit. Of course, the meta would probably stagnate into a handful of good decks, but maybe some kind of rolling ban cycle could keep things fresh.

I would love that. I'm thinking about making my EDH deck all old card frame.

[Star|Scream]

Another point I thought about is making a bit of conversation around here. If you have a checklist card in the deck for a card that's main deck. Where is the actual card going to be? Ah, probably in your deck box with your sideboard, right? This makes for an elegant cheating method if you see it. I have a feeling people need to start using different colored sleeves than the sideboard cards for these double cards or else you're going to get these two mixed up and some unscrupulous ones might do it on purpose.

I know if I end up using these cards in tournaments, I'll be using a different color for anything that's not being actually used in the deck and is only sitting off to the side for representation. It's just asking for a judge call. To be honest, I think I'll probably just end up flipping them in and out of the sleeve so I can just not have to play with the stupid checklist cards in the first place.

damn, this double face thing is going to be a pain. I actually like the flavor of it, but it sure has a lot of problems with it.

I thought you could only use checklist cards if you weren't using sleeves. If you have your cards sleeved then there is no issue and no need to use a checklist.

I agree though there has to be some clarification during tournaments as to where double-sided cards should be kept if you are not using sleeves. This doesn't seem well-thought out or perhaps it was, but they just really don't care.

[Tammit67]

I think realistically once everyone is familiar with the flip cards, people will just use a token or some object to put on top of the card to signify that the card is "flipped." If someone really needs to read the card text you can pull it out of the sleeve, but it seems pretty reasonable to place some sort physical object on the card to show that the flipped side of the card is in play.

I still have to explain LED to people. People never get familar enough.

[GGoober]

Me neither. Because they can simply put the text from the transform cards onto the flip card templates.

But the whole reason for the transform mechanic was to break traditional roots, and to exemplify the artwork instead of squeezing them onto flip/split cards.

Except I don't buy that bullcrap. MTG art has been amazing in the past few years, but implementing this inelegantly makes the game look bad as a whole. I don't know why, I never felt like quitting MTG ever, but this is really kinda making me feel like quitting for no reason.

[rufus]

This isn't really an issue with the two-faced cards, but I found myself wondering whether they transform while phased out.

[KevinTrudeau]

As the set gets further spoiled I like the mechanic even less, this time from a pure gameplay perspective; as it appears cards will only flip to Werewolf form if two or more spells were cast that turn and back to human form if none were cast instead of flipping under differing conditions (as Level Up should have been), it doesn't even appear to be that exciting.

Since ragging on this mechanic is like beating a dead horse now, I'd just like to bring up one more flaw in its execution before I call it quits: if I recall correctly, the checklist proxies will be of the same textural make-up as tokens and rule inserts, meaning they will be of a different consistency than normal Magic cards. How this will impact shuffling and randomization, I don't know.

[dschalter]

As the set gets further spoiled I like the mechanic even less, this time from a pure gameplay perspective; as it appears cards will only flip to Werewolf form if two or more spells were cast that turn and back to human form if none were cast instead of flipping under differing conditions (as Level Up should have been), it doesn't even appear to be that exciting.

Since ragging on this mechanic is like beating a dead horse now, I'd just like to bring up one more flaw in its execution before I call it quits: if I recall correctly, the checklist proxies will be of the same textural make-up as tokens and rule inserts, meaning they will be of a different consistency than normal Magic cards. How this will impact shuffling and randomization, I don't know.

No, they will have the same texture as regular cards, because they are replace the basic land on the printing sheet.

[Comrade]

This was basically how Legends, The Dark, Homelands, etc were designed.

Maybe I'm a little biased here, but I really like the flavor of those sets. They all have varying degrees of a horror theme running through them. The main problems they had however, were the casting and activation costs. Hell, even Fallen Empires could have been a decent set if they would have included some really good rares.

I'd really like WotC to rehire Randy Buehler and get him back on the design and development teams again. Also, does anyone know what happened to Mike Elliot? Does he even still work there or did they fire him too? His sets always seemed to be pretty decent. Maybe it's just the nostalgic MTG player in me that longs for the cards to once again be close to how they used to be when I enjoyed the game the most.

[Nihil Credo]

Maybe I'm a little biased here, but I really like the flavor of those sets. They all have varying degrees of a horror theme running through them. The main problems they had however, were the casting and activation costs. Hell, even Fallen Empires could have been a decent set if they would have included some really good rares.
Kind of OT, but does anyone remember an article that had power-level-fixed Homelands cards? I thought it was on GoodGamery, but can't find it there.

[Zuriya]

Sorry for being off-topic:

Talking about textural makeup. Has anybody else noticed that there seems to be a difference
between commons and rares in recent packs? It seems whenever I open a booster, the commons
are (more or less) bent and the rare looks flat as it should be (and no there has not always been
a foil in these boosters). Am I imagining things or is this real?

[Lancer]

At first I dont like the idea, it seems like an intent to turn paper magic into Magic Online.

Although, I can see them being played "casually" and I can see a few being played at the tournament level. I figure we have 20 now and maybe 60 total or 50 (if the second and third sets has 10 each) I do feel sad that the werewolfs are cursed with those cards.

I might play them in a few casual builds to have fun at the kitchen table, I'm not sure beyond that. I dont like the proxy idea, though I can see a few artists haveing fun in pimp those proxy cards, and selling them on EBAY.

I guess I need to see the full set before I can actually say I like them or not, right now flip cards is a spinter of the 20 years of magic cards.

[boneclub24]

You can always just run the proxy card, and have the actual card be in a clear sleeve. Problem solved.

[Mobiusman]

Kind of OT, but does anyone remember an article that had power-level-fixed Homelands cards? I thought it was on GoodGamery, but can't find it there.

You're probably thinking of this (http://magiclampoon.com/blog/2011/07/24/fixing-homelands/) Magic Lampoon article. We did do some semiserious work on a similar project at goodgamery too, some of which can be seen here (http://xerent.no-ip.org/innilands/).

[Comrade]

You're probably thinking of this (http://magiclampoon.com/blog/2011/07/24/fixing-homelands/) Magic Lampoon article. We did do some semiserious work on a similar project at goodgamery too, some of which can be seen here (http://xerent.no-ip.org/innilands/).

That's pretty badass.

[Nihil Credo]

You're probably thinking of this (http://magiclampoon.com/blog/2011/07/24/fixing-homelands/) Magic Lampoon article. We did do some semiserious work on a similar project at goodgamery too, some of which can be seen here (http://xerent.no-ip.org/innilands/).

Thanks, this was it.


It's not like we're not already used to dealing with Maro/LaPille's mistakes. What's one more to deal with, right?

http://www.heart-2-heart.ca/men/page4.htm

[Admiral_Arzar]

You're probably thinking of this (http://magiclampoon.com/blog/2011/07/24/fixing-homelands/) Magic Lampoon article. We did do some semiserious work on a similar project at goodgamery too, some of which can be seen here (http://xerent.no-ip.org/innilands/).

I lol'd at Anaba Ancestor, when I realized that it would make Thunder Bluff the DTB again.

[Psyqo]

Just had to chime in and say that I really hate this new mechanic. Flip cards are so much easier to manage from a limited and sleeve perspective.

[GGoober]

You know, I've read through the flip cards spoiled so far, and aside from Garruk, seems that everything can be designed with the flip or level-up mechanic without having to go into this nightmare situation for limited and sleeving etc.

I'm quite convinced they had to abandon the idea for flip/level-up/similar mechanic and resort to double-faced cards because cards like Garruk just won't work without having to go into font 6 size on cards lol.

[Zuriya]

Sorry if I should have posted this in the rules section:
Does a tapped creature remain tapped after it transforms? I didn't find an answer anywhere.

Edit: They remain tapped. Otherwise it makes no sense for Homicidal Brute to tap it before transforming it back. Sorry.

[Lancer]

Just had to chime in and say that I really hate this new mechanic. Flip cards are so much easier to manage from a limited and sleeve perspective.

It a nightmare to keep pulling the card out of the sleeves each time. Players are either going to use those proxies cards and the flip cards will be like a token card or they will own 2 of every card (although I cannot see that happen with Garruk).

[Centurion]

The more DFCs spoiled, the less impressed I am with them. If they had either keyworded the werewolf trigger or come up with a better one, every card but Garruk wouldn't run into text length issues.

Am I the only one who thinks they made this to disguise the fact there isn't any "new" mechanic in the set? (Flashback is a re-tread, curse is just a subtype which will have 1-4 cards referencing it, fight is a keywording, and "morbid" is just finally doing something every amatuer designer came up with years ago)

[DragoFireheart]

God this mechanic is so awful. This set will be worse than Homelands.

[dahcmai]

What sucks is I don't like those little checklist cards and I hate playing with sleeves in limited. Bah, can't win on that one.

[Forbiddian]

Imagine a future, where you only play checklists in your maindeck

Brainstorm, check check check check....

[joven]

DFC are the dumbest idea WotC had in long time.
The checklist cards are awful, I would never used that kind of thing.


Am I the only one who thinks they made this to disguise the fact there isn't any "new" mechanic in the set? (Flashback is a re-tread, curse is just a subtype which will have 1-4 cards referencing it, fight is a keywording, and "morbid" is just finally doing something every amatuer designer came up with years ago)

I think your're right. Innistrad has no really new mechanic! :O
I thought from what I heard that Innistrad would have some new graveyard mechanics, but so far there is only Flashback and few other old mechanics. :(

[Lancer]

What sucks is I don't like those little checklist cards and I hate playing with sleeves in limited. Bah, can't win on that one.

The cool part about the checklist cards is drawing on them. Actually, a month after the release of the set we are going to see @ Ebay artist drawings on those checklist cards to pimp out the deck.

Not a bad idea and a good way to look at those checklists