[SCD] Liliana of the Veil

[catmint]

Card Type: Planeswalker

Subtype: Liliana

Loyalty: 3

Casting Cost: 1BB

Card Text: [+1]: Each player discards a card.
[-2]: Target player sacrifices a creature.
[-6]: Separate all permanents target player controls into two piles. That player sacrifices all permanents in the pile of his or her choice.

Finally looks like a playable planeswalker in black!
Has the ability to protect itsself and the discard has in general synergy with black.
ideas?

[Einherjer]

I think there are good ways to make the +1 asymmetric. A'la Discard a land for Life from the Loam.
Thats the deck Id actually test it in.

[Aggro_zombies]

Aggro Loam might be interested in her. The problem is that deck already has a lot of three-drops, although Maelstrom Pulse has been underwhelming for a while. It might be worth testing her over that.

[overseer1234]

Seems cool in pox.

Discarding bloodghast, or land/redundant cards (2nd crucible,...)doesn't sound to bad for the +1 ability (also extra fodder for tombstalker)

the -2 might just be what the deck needs, and the ultimate is simply pox on a stick...

[GGoober]

Holy crap a 3cmc Planeswalker that isn't BLUE.

Very good potential in Legacy. The 3cmc Edict is alright in the format considering that she's a thorn and buys an attack step, and if unstopped becomes quite the annoyance against any deck packing creatures. Even if her discard is symmetrical, she fits in perfectly in black/pox-based decks or a deck with Loam to break the symmetry.

The only issue is that in top-deck mode, her edict can't be used fast enough when your opponents constantly drop creatures while you are left with no cards in hand because you're both top-decking.

[Scordata]

Her and Vengeful Pharaoh make a nice team. I expect this to be abused in standard.

[Humphrey]

I dont see her in any Tier1 Deck

[Tao]

She is extremely good in the right deck. Close to being broken. She has everything a Planeswalker needs. Cheap cost, self protection and a way to create card advantage. Either play her as an Edict with built-in life-gain or activate the engine with Loam or Vengies or whatever it is that Pinky Pox does.

[Tombstalker]

Any Deck that runs discard and/or gatekeeper will run this. Decks that I can see utilizing liliana are BUG landstill, TA, the gate, DGA, and all loam decks splashing black will at least consider her. Id also like to point out that you don't necessarily need to break the symmetry of her discard effect for it to be good. While not CA, its at worst still card parity that you control and if used in a fast tempo deck it can easily become one sided.

[Hanni]

Until I playtest the new Liliana, I can only speculate and theorize on her actual power, but so far, she seems to be quite good.

She seems to be a natural shoe-in for my U/B/g The Mind Harvester deck, which is essentially a U/B/g Landstill deck minus Manlands/Standstill plus Intuition/Loam. I see her being good in U/B/g Landstill too, just not as much.

Anway, those decks gain tremendous benefit out of her. At worst, she's a 3 mana sorcery speed Edict + lifegain (you kill a guy, they attack into her to kill her).

However, those decks are more than capable of keeping the board clear. Dropping Liliana on a clear board means she's ramping up to 4 counters immediately. The self-discard is mostly irrelevant in my Mind Harvester deck. At that point, she's basically a double Edict, and the opponent either needs to commit two threats on the following turn (unlikely), or it's very plausible that they will never be able to stick another creature to the board. So in that scenario, she's either +1 CA (two Edicts), or can become exponentially more (CA) each passing turn that the opponent is unable to drop a creature.

Basically, she's a proactive removal spell like Deed. You don't need to have a target (opposing creature) to be able to put her into play. So instead of sitting on dead removal (in hand) when the board is clear, you can get some value out of her. The discard can be great against opposing control and combo decks, and the ultimate is also really strong against opposing control (destroys their manabase). I'm not sure of the implications of her ultimate vs combo decks, as this is something I'd like to playtest with before coming to any conclusions.

Also, imagine having her and a Jace TMS on the board at the same time. Now, the opponent is in an almost impossible to overcome state, because Liliana will protect Jace, and Jace can do the bounce ability if the opponent drops two threats in the same turn (or of course, dig for an answer to the second threat). The Fatesealing + discard combo is also brutal, since you are reducing their card quality, and the card you're giving them may be something that will be trapped in hand that Liliana can discard.

Liliana also works well under Worm Harvest tokens, since the tokens force the opponent to overcommit threats. Meanwhile, it allows Liliana to ramp up counters. Once Liliana ramps up counters, she can then nuke roughly half of the opponent's board with her ulimtate.

Either way, I'd like to do some actual playtesting with her once they release the INN patch for MWS, but I'm sure most of my thought process on her power level in my Mind Harvester deck is going to be spot on.

[Rizso]

Im treating her very much like Jace Beleren, something you play use a couple of turn then play an other. Like 1st ramp up, 2 edicts play an other for either edict or discard. She is a pretty low mana cost 2+ for 1 spell that affects the board. I like all the 3 abilties, the ultimate is one of the cheapest there is. Its no jace, not something you will ride all the way to victory.

[Hanni]

Im treating her very much like Jace Beleren, something you play use a couple of turn then play an other. Like 1st ramp up, 2 edicts play an other for either edict or discard. She is a pretty low mana cost 2+ for 1 spell that affects the board. I like all the 3 abilties, the ultimate is one of the cheapest there is. Its no jace, not something you will ride all the way to victory.

Pretty much your last sentence sums it up. Liliana does not function the same way as a Planeswalker like Jace or Elspeth does, in regards to being a win condition. Rather, Liliana is a powerful and versatile control element. Her primary function is removal, so she easily fits into a few removal spots from whatever control deck she's fit into, but she fills several roles.

[Lemnear]

I'll focus my testing in hellbent and madness with a lil' ride into pox

[Antonius]

KotR has a new homegirl.

She's called Liliana of the Junky Loam.

@Aggro_Zombies: No way Liliana is better than any of the three drops already in Aggro Loam except in certain matchups (combo). She's a sideboard card. The hammer that goes with Duress, Pyroblast, whatever else you might be running for the combo matchups.

[catmint]

I had similar thoughts then most of you. Of course any deck with pox or loam would be a nice fit.
Not sure if she can fit (all) removal spots because these are often needed early.
Team America running it... don't think so...provides more control than tempo advantage.

Her ultimate is of course not a wincondition, but in the right deck she can easily take over the game.
Sacrificing half of the permanents is pretty strong if she lets discard 3-4 cards first.

[Aggro_zombies]

KotR has a new homegirl.

She's called Liliana of the Junky Loam.

@Aggro_Zombies: No way Liliana is better than any of the three drops already in Aggro Loam except in certain matchups (combo). She's a sideboard card. The hammer that goes with Duress, Pyroblast, whatever else you might be running for the combo matchups.
Well, she's certainly worse than Crusher or Assault. I think it's debatable how much better she is than Pulse; aside from situations involving Jace and Aether Vial, Pulse is just a really overcosted Terminate, and I would rather have a cheaper removal spell in that slot for Bob and mana efficiency purposes. The +1 ability is generally good against blue decks, and the Edict effect is good against the creature-light ones.

[bruizar]

Best card in the set. Card is the real deal. Works great alongside jace 2.0.

I see this go into bug lists almost immediately.

Jace bounce, liliana discard
Jace bounce irrelevant creature, liliana edict relevant creature
Edict progenitus
Doesnt conflict with other 4 drops
Can be cast off ritual
Liliana discard, jace fateseal to nullify outs (in hand and fom top deck)

First 3cc planeswalker that can protect herself.


This wilk go in a deck with pernicious deed, tarmogoyf, dark confidant, jace 2.0, liliana of the veil, and a bunch of counters.

Although good in pox, pox is still a bad (but fun) deck.

[Tammit67]

I love her. Seems ridiculous, but maybe not enough for legacy?

[NyxathidHorror]

Theoretically sounds really good, but we'll see. Seems extremely fun in pox.

[SpikeyMikey]

Works great alongside jace 2.0.


Hanni said this also, but I would like to reinforce this statement. Turn 3 Liliana into turn 4 Jace is nuts against anything midrange or control. It's passable against Zoo but they will end up killing her. But against decks that won't have multiple threats on the board on turn 2? Unless they're capable of dropping multiple threats a turn early like that (turn 3, turn 4), you can alternate using Jace and Liliana to deal with threats, leaving your mana open for counters, dig or removal. It's an incredibly strong 1-2 punch and I think it's going to give BUG critical mass. I'm considering resurrecting 4c BHWC Landstill and modifying it to include the 'walkers. The format is definitely slow enough right now.

[Antonius]

BHWC = West Coast Bitches and Hoes? I heard of that deck. Sounds gangster.

@Aggro_Zombies: I just might have been wrong. Liliana of the Vale seems pretty good thus far, I was just put-off at the idea of adding BB to a deck that already wants RRR and as much G as possible. However, with a Lorwynn filter-land or two to further stabilize the mana, it can all work out.

[Digital Devil]

I hate this thread. Everytime I look @ the title I read "Leyline of the Void" - good way to kill a Dredge player xD

I personally think Liliana is solid - it kills Emrakul/Progenitus while feeding Tombstalker and disrupting your opponent's hand.

[bruizar]

I should say this card is crap so the price won't get as high as I think it will.

So yeah, liliana sux

[makochman]

I should say this card is crap so the price won't get as high as I think it will.

So yeah, liliana sux

There's no doubt she's good. The question is, just how good? Does Landstill want her? Does any Loam deck want her? Does aggro want her? It seems to me the interaction with Loam makes her worth it, but then I only dabbled in Loam and never played Landstill. She's fragile, many decks can fetch Dryad Arbor in response to the second ability or flash in Vendilion Clique during the end step to kill her.

[SpikeyMikey]

There's no doubt she's good. The question is, just how good? Does Landstill want her? Does any Loam deck want her? Does aggro want her? It seems to me the interaction with Loam makes her worth it, but then I only dabbled in Loam and never played Landstill. She's fragile, many decks can fetch Dryad Arbor in response to the second ability or flash in Vendilion Clique during the end step to kill her.

Many decks can flash in V. Clique EoT to deal with Jace TMS also; how many people open up with a fateseal when they drop him? The fact that there are answers out there to Liliana does not mean she's not ridiculous. On her own, I'd say she was playable, but the way she fits into BUG so perfectly, complimenting Jace and ignoring Pernicious Deed and Innocent Blood (the staple removal spells of the deck) makes her amazing. Opponent has multiple creatures on the board? Drop Deed. They don't? Drop Liliana. And following her up with Jace, TMS is just ludicrous. The ability to have 2 reusable removal spells on a freshly cleared board is absolutely backbreaking. I mean, most people surely remember how difficult it was for midrange to deal with Jace out of CB decks 8 or 9 months ago. They'd Firespout then turn around and drop Jace and between that and Countertop, you had no chance of recovering. This is the same thing. Once they're both on board, you're going to have a hell of a time getting anything through them.

[Lancer]

I dont know, I would like to try her in Pox but she doesnt offer any real win condition or major threat.

[bruizar]

There's no doubt she's good. The question is, just how good? Does Landstill want her? Does any Loam deck want her? Does aggro want her? It seems to me the interaction with Loam makes her worth it, but then I only dabbled in Loam and never played Landstill. She's fragile, many decks can fetch Dryad Arbor in response to the second ability or flash in Vendilion Clique during the end step to kill her.

I am borderline close to saying that Liliana is Jace-like good. If not borderline good, she's atleast nearly as good in terms of power level. Your point about Vendilion Clique may ring true to some extent, but with the printing of SNapcaster Mage I believe cards like Lava Dart and FIre // Ice are perfect cards in the upcoming meta. Targets would include Noble Hierarch, Dryad Arbor, Vendilion Clique, Spellstutter Sprite, Snapcaster Mage, Dark Confidant, Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystic, and to some extent fringe cards like Gaddock Teeg, Weathered Wayfarer and Aven Mindcensor.

Lava Dart doesn't even REALLY mind being discarded to Liliana, so I could see a splash happening.

Liliana is better than every non-jace 2 planeswalker thus far, and might well be on par with Jace 2.0 due to the fact that she's 3CC.

EDIT: The first 40 games of Liliana confirm my suspicion

[SpikeyMikey]

Darkblast is better than Fire/Ice or Lava Dart. It's on color and it's reusable.

[bruizar]

Darkblast is better than Fire/Ice or Lava Dart. It's on color and it's reusable.

Agreed

[Rizso]

Every Planeswalker is a threat even if they dont win on their own like elspeth, jace and gideon do for example. But then again Lilian is just 3cc walker unlike the others. She is both a removal and a discard spell!

[Aggro_zombies]

Darkblast is better than Fire/Ice or Lava Dart. It's on color and it's reusable.
It's not any more on-color with Snapcaster Mage than Fire or Lava Dart.

What he's saying is that he expects low-impact burn spells and other small ways to gain value to be more prevalent if Snapcaster Mage starts becoming a serious presence in the format. The single-point burn spells in particular will put a damper on the ability of Clique to flash in endstep and then do anything against a variety of decks, although of course the Liliana ones will also have access to Darkblast. But if burn is going to be as prevalent as he's guessing, Clique becomes much worse in general.

[bruizar]

It's not any more on-color with Snapcaster Mage than Fire or Lava Dart.

What he's saying is that he expects low-impact burn spells and other small ways to gain value to be more prevalent if Snapcaster Mage starts becoming a serious presence in the format. The single-point burn spells in particular will put a damper on the ability of Clique to flash in endstep and then do anything against a variety of decks, although of course the Liliana ones will also have access to Darkblast. But if burn is going to be as prevalent as he's guessing, Clique becomes much worse in general.

Agreed. I also think that Snuff Out is better than Dismember when paired with Liliana, because you typically want to use Liliana to clear the board entirely so you can start ramping the +1. Dismember costs, at best, 1 colorless mana. This is undesirable, because you want Liliana to hit play and survive as soon as possible. Snuff Out does this. Whether or not Snuff Out or Dismember are good enough in the first place, is up for discussion. I am leaning towards approving Snuff Out in a planeswalker list with liliana and jace though.

[Fossil4182]

As its been pointed out, her ultimate doesn't outright win the game and may or may not put you that far ahead depending on board state. Given this, a deck that includes here really needs to be able to break the symmetry of her first ability if its going to use her effectively. Otherwise, I think there are much better options out there for decks that may give her a look.

[bruizar]

As its been pointed out, her ultimate doesn't outright win the game and may or may not put you that far ahead depending on board state. Given this, a deck that includes here really needs to be able to break the symmetry of her first ability if its going to use her effectively. Otherwise, I think there are much better options out there for decks that may give her a look.

I disagree. Her ultimate is irrelevant. She would be good with only the first 2 abilities printed. She will put you so far ahead that winning is just a logical conclusion. If protected well, she will dominate the board state which quickly follows by what we call "the Fundamental turn" (the turn that you win the game, before the game is over). Winning, at that stage, is simply waiting for the topdeck.

[Gheizen64]

As its been pointed out, her ultimate doesn't outright win the game and may or may not put you that far ahead depending on board state. Given this, a deck that includes here really needs to be able to break the symmetry of her first ability if its going to use her effectively. Otherwise, I think there are much better options out there for decks that may give her a look.

I think if the card do actually more than one edict is already extremely good. An active liliana basically protect you from any non-haste creature topdeck. It's a sort of hard lock piece.

The ultimate isn't really the point of the card.

[bruizar]

I think if the card do actually more than one edict is already extremely good. An active liliana basically protect you from any non-haste creature topdeck. It's a sort of hard lock piece.

The ultimate isn't really the point of the card.

The synergy with Ensnaring Bridge and Vengeful Pharaoh is disgusting too. (note: THe synergy with ensnaring bridge isnt the same as other bridgewalker decks, its the +1 that helps get your Ensnaring Bridge online). Vengeful Pharaoh has a specific clause that enables it to destroy creatures that attack Liliana. By ramping it to 4, a Wild Nacatl would not be able to kill Liliana (not only because he does only 3 damage, but because he dies trying so it can't finish the job).

A player would need to overcome Vengeful Pharaoh, constant edicting of Liliana AND Ensnaring Bridge while Jace is going for his ultimate. That means artifact hate and graveyard hate as well as either burn, vindicates, haste guys (goblin guides) or flash guys (clique, sprite, snapcastermage).

Even without Ensnaring Bridge, this set up would simply cost your opponent so much creatures that it wouldn´t have any gas left to fend your creatures.

The coolest thing about the pharaoh /liliana combo is that you simply can´t get attacked anymore. Once Liliana puts both players in top deck mode, you will simply build land drops and force discards or edicts unto your opponent. If for whatever reason he can attack you, you will be rewarded for it by killing his creature with Pharaoh and actually DRAWING the Pharaoh as a win condition next turn! It breaks the symmetry of draw-go because you already have the threat in the yard!

[Koby]

Unfortunately, Vengeful Pharaoh isn't going to be anymore playable after Liliana is introduced.

[Fossil4182]

I disagree. Her ultimate is irrelevant. She would be good with only the first 2 abilities printed. She will put you so far ahead that winning is just a logical conclusion. If protected well, she will dominate the board state which quickly follows by what we call "the Fundamental turn" (the turn that you win the game, before the game is over). Winning, at that stage, is simply waiting for the topdeck.

You can reference Zvi Mowshowitz (the author of 'The Fundamental Turn') all you want, but the you're only addressing the first part of my post. You claim that she would be good with only the first two printed abilities, but I fail to see how a three mana symmetrical discard effect is "good" without your deck being designed to take advantage of it (which is the point I make in my first post). My writing on her ultimate is only to restate what has already been said about her, she's not a win condition.

The issue I somewhat disagree with in your post is that your argument about Liliana and the "fundamental turn" isn't unique. "Competitive" (less than 5 mana) Planeswalkers that do and could see play in Legacy such as Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Koth of the Hammer, Elspeth, Kight-Errant, and Ajani Vengeant can all take over games if they are well protected and lead to "fundamental turns". However, there are many reasons why most of these cards don't see widespread play in Legacy. Liliana lacks the ubiquitous qualities of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and accordingly must be used in a deck that can take full advantage of her abilities while still remaining competitive against the field. Again, I'm not saying she isn't unplayable, and everyone knows her second ability is awesome. However, she doesn't fit in or solve issues that existing archetypes have right now because no deck that's been mentioned thus far can effectively break the symmetry of first ability nor where they looking for a three mana Edict/prevent X damage spell to become competitive. Therefore I fail to see how she makes a significant impact until a deck is played that can effectively use all of her abilities.


I think if the card do actually more than one edict is already extremely good. An active liliana basically protect you from any non-haste creature topdeck. It's a sort of hard lock piece.

The ultimate isn't really the point of the card.

Actually read the post. The first sentence only illustrates that her ultimate isn't a win condition and sets up the main part of the post which is the second sentence; a deck needs to be able to effectively use her first and second ability to make the card worth playing. Even if we followed your hypothetical and use her second ability as a soft lock there are a couple of reasons why this argument is insufficient. Any half smart player won't play a top deck creature to an empty board with Liliana on it; they'll hold creatures until they can overwhelm you. Additionally, assuming you're using her Edict ability the turn you cast her, you still have to wait two turns before you're able to use it again which means you payed three mana for an Edict and prevent X damage (where X is equal to the creature or spell damage they used to kill her). Again, I'm not saying she isn't powerful, but being able to generate an advantage off her first ability is what will make her powerful in Legacy in my opinion.

[Koby]

I think Liliana is a great utility and a needed card for Pox builds, even thought the deck is not competitive. She is better than discard against aggro, and better than edicts against control, but not fantastic at either role. She is a stop-gap measure for decks that have a premium on the variety of Answer cards. That said, she's playable in Team America, and other BUG control lists for the creature control portion.

bruizar mentioned the synergy between Jace and Liliana, and I think that's a great place to start with a competitive deck. Of course, I'll start her off in Pox just to piss off half my state, but once I learn her shortcomings, I'll change the deck around.

[Aggro_zombies]

The problem with Liliana is that you really need to have her in a deck with Jace or a bunch of ways to kill Jace, because if you have a Liliana and your opponent has a Jace you will feel pretty silly. I would actually side her out against aggro because the discard does not hurt them much and the Edict ability can only be used once every couple of turns, assuming you want to keep her alive and the opponent doesn't have any way to repeatedly ping her.

So I can see her doing well in midrange G/B/x decks like Aggro Loam, or in BUG decks with Jace. She's not going to be good basically anywhere else.

[bruizar]

You can reference Zvi Mowshowitz (the author of 'The Fundamental Turn') all you want, but the you're only addressing the first part of my post. You claim that she would be good with only the first two printed abilities, but I fail to see how a three mana symmetrical discard effect is "good" without your deck being designed to take advantage of it (which is the point I make in my first post). My writing on her ultimate is only to restate what has already been said about her, she's not a win condition.

The issue I somewhat disagree with in your post is that your argument about Liliana and the "fundamental turn" isn't unique. "Competitive" (less than 5 mana) Planeswalkers that do and could see play in Legacy such as Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Koth of the Hammer, Elspeth, Kight-Errant, and Ajani Vengeant can all take over games if they are well protected and lead to "fundamental turns". However, there are many reasons why most of these cards don't see widespread play in Legacy. Liliana lacks the ubiquitous qualities of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and accordingly must be used in a deck that can take full advantage of her abilities while still remaining competitive against the field. Again, I'm not saying she isn't unplayable, and everyone knows her second ability is awesome. However, she doesn't fit in or solve issues that existing archetypes have right now because no deck that's been mentioned thus far can effectively break the symmetry of first ability nor where they looking for a three mana Edict/prevent X damage spell to become competitive. Therefore I fail to see how she makes a significant impact until a deck is played that can effectively use all of her abilities.



Actually read the post. The first sentence only illustrates that her ultimate isn't a win condition and sets up the main part of the post which is the second sentence; a deck needs to be able to effectively use her first and second ability to make the card worth playing. Even if we followed your hypothetical and use her second ability as a soft lock there are a couple of reasons why this argument is insufficient. Any half smart player won't play a top deck creature to an empty board with Liliana on it; they'll hold creatures until they can overwhelm you. Additionally, assuming you're using her Edict ability the turn you cast her, you still have to wait two turns before you're able to use it again which means you payed three mana for an Edict and prevent X damage (where X is equal to the creature or spell damage they used to kill her). Again, I'm not saying she isn't powerful, but being able to generate an advantage off her first ability is what will make her powerful in Legacy in my opinion.

A good way to break the symmetry is to play out your entire hand. That requires no special deck construction and no other cards with which Liliana has to combo.

Obviously there are cards like Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds, Basking Rootwalla, Vengeful Pharaoh, Ancient Grudge, Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Bloodghast and Darkblast, but even if you exclude those, the discard is very powerful. What you want to achieve with the +1 ability is spiral you and your opponent into top deck mode. If all other things are equal, you should be able to win since neither player has creatures and neither player has cards in hand, but you have an active planeswalker. Simply ramping her up every turn makes her able to answer any threat your opponent may cast.

Once we´re in that topdeck zone, non-instant cards have to be cast immediately. The only card that could potentially make it more difficult for Liliana in topdeck mode is Aether Vial, but you´ll be well on your way to winning the game if you can stop the endless swarms of creatures from a vial deck. Any other card, 9 times out of 10, is either a creature, a land, a cantrip, a permission or a creature removal spell, or Jace / Elspeth. Jace is an easy card to beat, simply recast a creature for 3 turns and its gone. Elspeth beats Liliana but it rarely sees more play than as a singleton in a control list. Liliana in topdeck mode invalidates cantrips, permission and creature removal (unless you have creatures). That only leaves lands and creatures as potential top-decks. Aside of Mishra's Factory and Mutavault, lands really don't matter. Creatures can get solved by Liliana too.

This is why I think that a good list would run Mishra's Factory, Jace and Liliana and perhaps a splash for 1 loam, and some deeds (and perhaps a few goyfs/confidants).

This means that a bug list / deedstill list would be most suited to running Liliana.

Also, I plan to try out Pox, even though its a notoriously uncompetitive deck that loses to itself.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

A good way to break the symmetry is to play out your entire hand. That requires no special deck construction and no other cards with which Liliana has to combo.

Obviously there are cards like Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds, Basking Rootwalla, Vengeful Pharaoh, Ancient Grudge, Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Bloodghast and Darkblast, but even if you exclude those, the discard is very powerful. What you want to achieve with the +1 ability is spiral you and your opponent into top deck mode. If all other things are equal, you should be able to win since neither player has creatures and neither player has cards in hand, but you have an active planeswalker. Simply ramping her up every turn makes her able to answer any threat your opponent may cast.

Once we´re in that topdeck zone, non-instant cards have to be cast immediately. The only card that could potentially make it more difficult for Liliana in topdeck mode is Aether Vial, but you´ll be well on your way to winning the game if you can stop the endless swarms of creatures from a vial deck. Any other card, 9 times out of 10, is either a creature, a land, a cantrip, a permission or a creature removal spell, or Jace / Elspeth. Jace is an easy card to beat, simply recast a creature for 3 turns and its gone. Elspeth beats Liliana but it rarely sees more play than as a singleton in a control list. Liliana in topdeck mode invalidates cantrips, permission and creature removal (unless you have creatures). That only leaves lands and creatures as potential top-decks. Aside of Mishra's Factory and Mutavault, lands really don't matter. Creatures can get solved by Liliana too.

This is why I think that a good list would run Mishra's Factory, Jace and Liliana and perhaps a splash for 1 loam, and some deeds (and perhaps a few goyfs/confidants).

This means that a bug list / deedstill list would be most suited to running Liliana.

Also, I plan to try out Pox, even though its a notoriously uncompetitive deck that loses to itself.

better try smallpox! I helps to put both players in topdeckmode!
Yeah I know you dont always go nuts with smallpox => destroying land + hirach, but it synergies very well with Liliana.
Maybe even dark ritual. First trun ritual out the PW 2th turn smallpox -.-

[SpikeyMikey]

You can reference Zvi Mowshowitz (the author of 'The Fundamental Turn') all you want, but the you're only addressing the first part of my post. You claim that she would be good with only the first two printed abilities, but I fail to see how a three mana symmetrical discard effect is "good" without your deck being designed to take advantage of it (which is the point I make in my first post). My writing on her ultimate is only to restate what has already been said about her, she's not a win condition.

The issue I somewhat disagree with in your post is that your argument about Liliana and the "fundamental turn" isn't unique. "Competitive" (less than 5 mana) Planeswalkers that do and could see play in Legacy such as Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Koth of the Hammer, Elspeth, Kight-Errant, and Ajani Vengeant can all take over games if they are well protected and lead to "fundamental turns". However, there are many reasons why most of these cards don't see widespread play in Legacy. Liliana lacks the ubiquitous qualities of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and accordingly must be used in a deck that can take full advantage of her abilities while still remaining competitive against the field. Again, I'm not saying she isn't unplayable, and everyone knows her second ability is awesome. However, she doesn't fit in or solve issues that existing archetypes have right now because no deck that's been mentioned thus far can effectively break the symmetry of first ability nor where they looking for a three mana Edict/prevent X damage spell to become competitive. Therefore I fail to see how she makes a significant impact until a deck is played that can effectively use all of her abilities.



Actually read the post. The first sentence only illustrates that her ultimate isn't a win condition and sets up the main part of the post which is the second sentence; a deck needs to be able to effectively use her first and second ability to make the card worth playing. Even if we followed your hypothetical and use her second ability as a soft lock there are a couple of reasons why this argument is insufficient. Any half smart player won't play a top deck creature to an empty board with Liliana on it; they'll hold creatures until they can overwhelm you. Additionally, assuming you're using her Edict ability the turn you cast her, you still have to wait two turns before you're able to use it again which means you payed three mana for an Edict and prevent X damage (where X is equal to the creature or spell damage they used to kill her). Again, I'm not saying she isn't powerful, but being able to generate an advantage off her first ability is what will make her powerful in Legacy in my opinion.

You're running under the assumption that you're trying to keep Liliana alive no matter what. If she's a Cruel Edict and a pseudo-Fog, that's fine. If not - if they can't kill her on the next turn - even better. If you follow up turn 3 Liliana with turn 4 Jace, that's freaking phenomenal. But she's usable all the time and fantastic some of the time. You control her discard ability. If you don't have anything you can afford to discard, don't use it. If you use one ability or another for 3 straight turns and on the 4th, don't have a play to make with her, you've still gotten value out of her.

What makes it so powerful is the ability to have multiple 'walkers with removal abilities on board at the same time. By herself, she's passable. Meh. Nothing to write home to mom about. In conjunction with Jace, the Game Slayer, she's all that and a bag of chips. You can talk all you want about not playing into a removal walker with an empty board, but if your opponent is sitting on Jace and Liliana, that means dropping 3 creatures, and unless you're Zoo, that's costing you at least 6 mana. And then assuming your opponent doesn't have any more removal in hand or a counter for that last creature, which is a pretty silly assumption given that they're in black and blue. You probably didn't have any more creatures on board after she dropped because she's in black, the same color as Innocent Blood, Smother, Go for the Throat, Snuff Out, Ghastly Demise, Vendetta and Dismember. BUG decks tend to run at least 2 of those.

That's what makes Liliana noteworthy. She pushes the format towards a critical mass of removal 'walkers. And while her discard ability isn't as good as the original, at 3 mana, she's more competitively costed against combo, where the discard would matter and the edict effect would be useless. I'll pitch an Innocent Blood against Hive Mind to make them discard something. Their spells are likely more relevant than that Blood was.

[DrJones]

There's no need to play cards to break the simmetry. As long as you are playing a black control deck, all your cards are much worse than what the opponent could discard. :tongue:

[bruizar]

You're running under the assumption that you're trying to keep Liliana alive no matter what. If she's a Cruel Edict and a pseudo-Fog, that's fine. If not - if they can't kill her on the next turn - even better. If you follow up turn 3 Liliana with turn 4 Jace, that's freaking phenomenal. But she's usable all the time and fantastic some of the time. You control her discard ability. If you don't have anything you can afford to discard, don't use it. If you use one ability or another for 3 straight turns and on the 4th, don't have a play to make with her, you've still gotten value out of her.

What makes it so powerful is the ability to have multiple 'walkers with removal abilities on board at the same time. By herself, she's passable. Meh. Nothing to write home to mom about. In conjunction with Jace, the Game Slayer, she's all that and a bag of chips. You can talk all you want about not playing into a removal walker with an empty board, but if your opponent is sitting on Jace and Liliana, that means dropping 3 creatures, and unless you're Zoo, that's costing you at least 6 mana. And then assuming your opponent doesn't have any more removal in hand or a counter for that last creature, which is a pretty silly assumption given that they're in black and blue. You probably didn't have any more creatures on board after she dropped because she's in black, the same color as Innocent Blood, Smother, Go for the Throat, Snuff Out, Ghastly Demise, Vendetta and Dismember. BUG decks tend to run at least 2 of those.

That's what makes Liliana noteworthy. She pushes the format towards a critical mass of removal 'walkers. And while her discard ability isn't as good as the original, at 3 mana, she's more competitively costed against combo, where the discard would matter and the edict effect would be useless. I'll pitch an Innocent Blood against Hive Mind to make them discard something. Their spells are likely more relevant than that Blood was.

I absolutely agree with you.

[TheCramp]

Resolving Standstill after Liliana 2.0 amuses me greatly. Similarly having a crucible in play, as many have said, is just fine. I like crucible in a blue deck about as much as I like anything in this game. That's where I intended to begin.

[Bruticus]

Liliana and Jace in conjunction with Cabal Pit + Loam/Crucible is totally brutal.

[Humphrey]

Liliana and Jace in conjunction with Cabal Pit + Loam/Crucible is totally brutal.
Give the creature -2-2 before they sac it or you bounce it?
Or kill yourself before the ultimate is up?

[The Big Ragu]

There's no need to play cards to break the simmetry. As long as you are playing a black control deck, all your cards are much worse than what the opponent could discard. :tongue:

Ouch.

[wcm8]

I don't think she's really powerful enough to warrant a deck built around her.

HOWEVER...

In an aggro control shell, she is incredibly versatile and deserves inclusion as a singleton. She can help win a control mirror in the mid-late game, service against aggro albeit maybe not as ideally as cheaper instant-speed removal, and against combo isn't a completely dead draw since you can +1 and toss away your irrelevant removal spells.

I'm using her in TA, and in the mid-late game once cards like Daze or additional fetchlands are useless, using +1 can be really amazing. I see the initial appeal in running stuff like LftL to 'break the symmetry', but honestly she's fine on her own and the parity of the ability doesn't need to be 'broken' to be incredibly useful.

I'm sure she's also awesome in Deedstill (maybe even way moreso), but I haven't gotten around to testing that deck post-misstep yet.

[Malchar]

The most convincing argument I have seen thus far is that by combining her with jace, the mind sculptor, you have the potential to reach a critical mass where you have two planeswalkers out, and each has one of the best creature removal abilities. This actually seems somewhat reasonable against aggro, since worst case scenario is trading one for one, plus you get a mini-fog. Since you're now able to run two different planeswalkers with similarly good removal potential, it increases the odds of this kind of control strategy actually working.

It's also naive to think that discard is bad against aggro. As a control player, as soon as the aggro opponent runs out of cards in hand, you automatically win unless they have lethal on the board.

[naarou]

she's absolutely bananas in team america. liliana the game-state preserver.

I agree with you, but use capitalization next time, please. Thanks. -zilla

[wizard_of_gore]

Guys, what do you think, is it going that liliana would replace gatekeeper of malakir completely from decks where gatekeeper is played (deadguy, eva green, the gate...). I want to ask, does gatekeeper have any other purpose in any other deck that liliana don't have, except is 2/2 body? Or they will be combined in those decks?

[Justin]

Gatekeeper is better in decks that run equipment. He can come down, force the opponent to sac a creature, and then pick up a Jitte (or whatever) and beat down. Liliana comes down, forces an opponent to sac a creature, and then...makes you and your opponent both discard a card...

Gatekeeper seems much better against decks that run creatures. The advantage of Liliana is that you can build the deck around to make her first ability not hurt you so much. It's also pretty mean against combo decks, especially if you can power her out with a dark rit.

[ivanpei]

She is really good in Standard where a Cruel Edict + a Fog is.... great? Especially if your plan is to curve out into a bunch of Sun Titans, fetching back more Cruel Edicts (Liliana). In that case, she's awesome!

In legacy, that doesn't really cut it unless its in a deck which is built to abuse her such as with Loam/Crucible/Pox etc. It makes a really nice Singleton in some decks as the 5th Removal spell. In decks like Team America, having a Singleton in the board (Like Gerry Thompson in the latest SCG Open) as the 3rd Edict effect should be ok. Saying that she is good against combo is pretty silly. Your opponent chooses what to pitch and she only really comes down on Turn 3. You'd be lucky to get 1 activation off before you die horribly.

Having said that, sorcery speed Edicts are terrible in legacy right now IMO. NO RUG is on the downturn and you really want instant speed removal to deal with Jin Gitaxis. We also forget that Snapcaster is around now. Edicting a player with Snapcaster makes that body seem so relevant. I'm gonna pass on her unless Pox suddenly becomes Tier 1.

[bruizar]

@ivanpei:

1) This just shows that you haven't tested Liliana yet. Saying Liliana is a fog is a display of inexperience with the card. The real power is that the card is what you want the card to be against the 3 different archetypes; aggro, combo and control. It seamlessly switches roles against which ever matchup. There is never a time I don't want Liliana, with one exception. The only time you don't want to use Liliana is when you've got a hand full of bombs, which means you're already going to win.

I am pretty sure 1 Liliana is the wrong number. I'm playing 4 at the moment and would not like to play any less. This thing is better than Jace 2.0 for the simple fact that Jace doesn't put anything in the graveyard. It doesn't get rid of creatures, it delays them. It interacts with future draws, but doesnt do anything against a hand full of bombs right now. When Liliana hits the board, your opponent is gonna lose something immediately. Jace is to Liliana as Extract is to Thoughtseize.

2) Pox won't become Tier 1 because the deck has inherent problems in its design. Not even Liliana can save Pox.

[Maveric78f]

Jace is to Liliana as Extract is to Thoughtseize.
Wow

[ivanpei]

Wow

I agree, WOW.

I honestly have no idea how to reply. I'm pretty sure someone else has a more eloquent way or argueing in favor of poor old Jace TMS. :(

[Esper3k]

I agree, WOW.

I honestly have no idea how to reply. I'm pretty sure someone else has a more eloquent way or argueing in favor of poor old Jace TMS. :(

Jace is blue.

And this is coming from someone whose favorite deck is Eva Green and totally loves the new Liliana.

[bruizar]

I'm playing with both of them, but I play more Lilianas than Jaces. I am not saying Jace is a bad card, not at all. They serve different purposes, but overall I found Liliana much more impactful than Jace.

[bruizar]

I wrote a long defense to your simple three letter reply which is obviously lacking substance, but I decided to delete it since it's wasted effort. If you don't like Liliana, don't play it. I don't want to turn this thread into another Batterskull discussion. Liliana is good and I know this from actual GAMES instead of the theory crafting of this board.

[dsck]

One guy from our car pool was playing rock last saturday for GPT Amsterdam and split finals for byes and cash. He beat Reanimator who had Iona on white with Liliana and I heard it was awesome whole day.

[CorpT]

I wrote a long defense to your simple three letter reply which is obviously lacking substance, but I decided to delete it since it's wasted effort. If you don't like Liliana, don't play it. I don't want to turn this thread into another Batterskull discussion. Liliana is good and I know this from actual GAMES instead of the theory crafting of this board.

This is my general thought. Before I had played with/against Lilliana, I was dismissive. She's good. Very good actually. The same argument was made against Batterskull. But when people actually played it in the real world and not in their head, it was proven to be very good.

[DragoFireheart]

Liliana of the Veil

+

Jace, The Mind Sculptor

=
Hot sex?

Can I get a control deck running these two?

[makochman]

Liliana of the Veil

+

Jace, The Mind Sculptor

=
Hot sex?


In terms of the storyline, yes. Also, there are multiple copies of Liliana in existence. As in, Liliana the person. I kid you not.

[DragoFireheart]

In terms of the storyline, yes. Also, there are multiple copies of Liliana in existence. As in, Liliana the person. I kid you not.

- Isn't Jace all emo for her or something?

[mcfarland]

I wrote a long defense to your simple three letter reply which is obviously lacking substance, but I decided to delete it since it's wasted effort. If you don't like Liliana, don't play it. I don't want to turn this thread into another Batterskull discussion. Liliana is good and I know this from actual GAMES instead of the theory crafting of this board.

Word.

I played her this weekend with an equal split of Liliana and JSM in Team America, and she was amazing. She was Thoughtseize'd out of my hand more times than Jace was throughout the day, and by good players.

And to echo a previous post, she's whatever you need at the time. I wanted her to land in all of my matchups, and sometimes for very different reasons. She'll be played. A lot.

[DragoFireheart]

She'll be played. A lot.

- That's what he said.

[Nonex]

- Isn't Jace all emo for her or something?

Not that much. It's she who meets and befriends Jace and even fucks him, just to later betray and manipulate him into fighting Tezzeret, who had stolen the control of a mercantile organization from Nicol Bolas. The deal is that Liliana clears the way for Nicol Bolas to regain control of his organization in exchange of being freed from the demons she pacted with to stay young and powerful (she's currently more than 100 years old).

[2Rach]

Not that much. It's she who meets and befriends Jace and even fucks him, just to later betray and manipulate him into fighting Tezzeret, who had stolen the control of a mercantile organization from Nicol Bolas. The deal is that Liliana clears the way for Nicol Bolas to regain control of his organization in exchange of being freed from the demons she pacted with to stay young and powerful (she's currently more than 100 years old).
Meanwhile on another plane, the dragon Planeswalker is like "disregard Planeswalker bitches, acquire supreme power."

[ivanpei]

I don't think any of us are saying shes a bad card. I think she's a perfectly fine card, just not as a 4 off as you've advocated. Your point of her being "better" than Jace TMS is what makes us skeptical. Your points are solid and valid but saying liliana>> jace is just theatrical. They both do different things. Jace is a midrange/all around bomb which is good in practically most situations. Either by being blue to pitch to force or by bouncing/brainstorming/fatesealing ftw. He is a built in disruptive win condition as well. He actually kills players.

I don't think jace>>> liliana. They both do different things. What makes jace so played in legacy is because he is extremely flexible, thus he is played in midrange, control and even tempo decks because he just does everything. You are arguing liliana is similar, I agree, but not to the extent of omfg, 4-off in every deck with black.

Firstly, walkers are strong in mid-range control decks. The best decks in the long game are blue decks obviously, hence the number of blue decks in legacy. Jace can be slotted into most blue decks to give some late and game gas/flexibility. Plus, he pitches to force at worst against combo.

Liliana is double black, that's her first limitation. Decks like deadguy, team America that are built to support double black can easily play liliana and should play some number of her if they are lacking in the 3cc spot on the curve. She is decent against tribal/fast aggro as a cruel edict + fog. She is extremely strong against midrange big guys like the rock, new horizons etc as recurring removal.

Saying it's good against control/combo IMO is not right. It's not like natural order/jace tms which straight up win the game when they land against control. Liliana basically makes both people discard a card (which is symetrical) on an empty board the control player can then proceed to eot clique/snapcaster and kill liliana or just drop jace ftw. Drawing cards with brainstorm=/ each player discarding a card.

Against combo, as I've mentioned, t3 each player discard a card does nothing against a combo player as most combo players go off t3/t4 pre misstep. Post misstep, combo goes off t2/t3. Like I've said, you'll be lucky to activate her even once before dying.

[bruizar]

You misinterpret the +1 ability. You can easily run 4 Liliana's because her +1 will allow you to get rid of extra Liliana's that you don't want. This means, running 4 to make sure that you land a Liliana in every game is closer to the optimal number, than running 1, since the card is good in every matchup due to its ability to switch roles so well.

Another point you don't seem to fully understand yet is the strength of the +1 ability. It is not symmetrical when you don't have cards in your hand, but more importantly, if you land Liliana against a control player with 5 cards in hand, he will never be able to assemble a 6 card hand anymore. If he plays a land, his handsize is reduced to 4 for the entire game. If he tries to counter something, he goes down to 3. It becomes increasingly difficult for a control player to control the game when his/her options become more limited each time he plays a card. Meanwhile, you are ramping to 6 and blow up half his board while he's in topdeck mode, grabbing spell snares and force of wills he can't use.

Even if he plays nothing, you force him to drop land since you use your ultimate to sack half his board. He will HAVE to play lands at some point, or he will simply not have any lands at all.

[conboy31]

I have found Liliana to be stronger on the field than some scenarios that have been provided. I have been trying her as a 4 of in B/w (for stoneforge) and a 4 of in UB stifle/waste/smallpox (no pox) deck. Even looking to find a small spot for testing in Nic Fit. I do think that she will be a 1 or 2 of in some decks where she eats up an edict from the decklist and gives added versatility. I also think that 4 of her might be more correct than 3 of her in a lot of other situations.

[naarou]

I'm not convinced she's a four-of in most of the decks she'll weasel her way into. The only reason Jace was a 4 of in a lot of decks was because he's blue and a lot of those decks used him as one of their few win-cons. However, Liliana is obviously not a win-con. Note that I'm sure she'll be a 4 of in a few niche decks, but those will most certainly have synergy with her +1 in the form of other cards (loam comes to mind).

The argument that you should play 4 because you can discard extras is not a strong argument for running four for the sole reason that a card having the quality of being "discardable" is far from ideal, unless it has some form of interaction with the yard or being discarded.

[bruizar]

The argument that you should play 4 because you can discard extras is not a strong argument for running four for the sole reason that a card having the quality of being "discardable" is far from ideal, unless it has some form of interaction with the yard or being discarded.

The argument is that you want to see one every single game, because its good against all the 3 strategies in magic (control, aggro, combo). Increasing your liliana's to 4 helps you ensure that you see one every game and gives you a few extra tries should it meet a Force of Will, Maelstrom Pulse or swarm of creatures. I would not dump my additional Liliana's that quickly, since the card is too powerful to throw away even if you have 1 in your hand, but the possibility of doing so gives you little room to excuse yourself from running a full set of Liliana's,

[naarou]

This is quickly going to spiral into a topic that's covered by a sticky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21385-Starting-7-Chart) at the top of the page. So I will attempt to not digress.

I agree with you that she is powerful--this is pretty much undebatable. I also agree with you that you probably want to see one every single game, although this varies depending on the deck. The emphasis is on "one," though. While the card can dump extra copies as noted, it's far from being something like Brainstorm, in that each copy you draw you can absolutely use to further the game state and furnish yourself some form of advantage.

The fact is, if Liliana is active and unthreatened, all other copies in your deck are useless. Yes, you can discard your own extra copies to trade for one of their cards, but this is true for literally any other card in the game as well. You have to imagine that when optimizing your deck, you should ideally avoid times when cards are 100% useless like that. You're not even given a choice in deciding to discard a card that could potentially do something--you're literally bottlenecked into that decision.

Now, I realize that she won't always be unthreatened, so let's examine the times she might be in trouble. Of the three deck strategies (control/aggro/combo), the only type that can realistically threaten her are aggro strategies. Again: aggro is the only strategy that can conceivably destroy multiple Lilianas in a row, and aggro is only a third of the available strategies. So in my opinion, including 4 Lilianas would be a metagame decision that would be made if you're expecting lots of aggro strategies. The extra copies of the planeswalker could easily be something that offers more than a "discardable if already employed" quality.

A much more reasonable number, taking into account the entire metagame that you described (aggro control and combo), would be 1-3.

The only other planeswalker that sees major play in 1.5 is Jace, and for reasons I've already covered, is an exception to this. I imagine if other 'walkers find their way into 1.5 in the future that don't share similar qualities with Jace, what I'm saying here will likely apply to them as well. Planeswalkers are largely new to 1.5 after all. :)

[ivanpei]

Basically your argument is that liliana is good in all matchups but she simply is not. I fail to see how you think she is stronger than jace against control/combo. You say that liliana is not symetrical against control because you have no cards in hand. What if the opponent also has no cards in hand? What if he is dropping jace tms and fatesealing you/brainstorming into threats and casting them straight away? It is simply not that great.

Against combo, you seriously cant be serious that the +1 on turn 3 affects their plan much. In this situation I'd much rather have hymn/thoughtseize/more targeted discard which actually can screw a combo player sideways. Pitching a card they do not need does not affect combo at all. I would put liliana's powerlevel at around elspeth's.

She does a good job at controlling mid range aggro and so-so in other matchups. That's how I see her. By playing 4 copies you are really putting too much emphasis on aggro busting. I really cannot see in anyway how she is good against non-aggro strategies! Even against aggro, her cruel edict is a -2 and it takes two +1s to actually cruel edict another creature. It takes alot of effort to power her up again to nuke another creature.

What makes her the shitnutz in standard is cards like think twice or forbidden alchemy which breaks liliana's symmetry. If you are pitching cards to be flashbacked later, she is a perfectly strong engine. In legacy, if madness was still a good deck, playing a set of liliana's and pitching basking rootwallas, vengevines and the sort would be ideal. Otherwise, she is a cruel edict and a fog. Which by itself is already a pretty good deal for 3 mana.

She is not Jtms, which is played in pretty much anything blue that plans on reaching 4 mana. Jace is jace because he is a recurring unsummon against aggro, a counterspell digger against combo and a win condition+ recurring disruption against control. Jace is the definition of the Swiss army knife. I simply don't see that in liliana. Also Jace is blue, decks don't have to warp their manabase to play him, most decks are heavy blue so he fits right in. Also by being blue, he pitches to force which makes him useful against combo in a way.

[catmint]

Of course Jace is stronger overall and can be played in more different legacy decks than liliana.
I would not compare liliana to elspeth, becuase 3 mana with removal versus 4 mana that makes a jump blocker to protect her is a different league. Liliana is MUCH stronger than elspeth.

However ivanpei, you are underestimating lilianas impact versus combo and control. I tested her in TA and against aggro she only shines on a board with 0 or 1 creatures. Playing her as an edict/fog is a very desperate play.

Versus storm combo she is creature removal for xantid swarm/confidant with added value!. Of course she is not a turn 3 play if you have something better to disrupt, however if the game goes long and grindy and you play her, then the combo player is under pressure!

Versus control liliana is very good! Breaking the symmetry with flasbhack cards is not necessary. Just the built in advantage of playing a tempo oriented deck means often you either play your cards or don't need them anymore. The control player needs a lot of cards and is forced to deal liliana as soon as possible. If he doesn't he runs out of cards and permanents which results in loosing.

[ivanpei]

Ive made my points, I don't think she is a bad card. I really do think liliana is an excellent walker and one of the top 3 walkers at the moment (jace, liliana, elspeth). I'm just stating facts that prevent her from becoming a 4-off in any deck that can support double black. I believe she is easily a playable legacy card that has a chance at becoming a staple. However, when faced with statements like omg, liliana>> jace and compulsory 4 off, obviously I'm a bit skeptical.

[catmint]

She is definitely not a 4 of in Tier decks..

[Lim-Dul]

But she is a perfect 2-of in Bug-landstill!!

Cause at the moment you can bring her on an empty board (sure, not against Combo) she is a BOMB!! And together with LftL your opponent is loosing his hand over the following turns and you have time to stabilize while she kills the coming threats..

In a meta with mainly control and/or aggro decks she is deffinitly a good addition to this deck!! like her a lot!! the more combo the meta the less she deserves her spots MB.

[makochman]

- Isn't Jace all emo for her or something?

I'm pretty sure Jace got emo because's he's been banned from Standard, Extended, and Modern. Apparently the world of Magic is very harsh to its celebrities, see e.g. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27436145/Baneslayer_Angel_Suicidal,_A_Wreck

I just wanted to say I would not be surprised if the price on Liliana 2.0 temporarily reaches into the $70-80 region. After all, it's a large-ish set, she's a Mythic Rare, and there's strong demand from Standard players. Also it seems that in Innistrad, the power level has been taken down a notch from the Zendikar-Scars insanity, so as a very strong card, she's kind of overshadowing the set, a bit like Jace 2.0 did with Worldwake. I don't think she will dominate Standard like Jace 2.0 though, so I expect the price will drop eventually.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Yep Jace is emo! But only Jace 3.0
http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/hash/84/c0/Jace-Memory-Adept.jpg

[ivanpei]

I'm pretty sure Jace got emo because's he's been banned from Standard, Extended, and Modern. Apparently the world of Magic is very harsh to its celebrities, see e.g. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27436145/Baneslayer_Angel_Suicidal,_A_Wreck

I just wanted to say I would not be surprised if the price on Liliana 2.0 temporarily reaches into the $70-80 region. After all, it's a large-ish set, she's a Mythic Rare, and there's strong demand from Standard players. Also it seems that in Innistrad, the power level has been taken down a notch from the Zendikar-Scars insanity, so as a very strong card, she's kind of overshadowing the set, a bit like Jace 2.0 did with Worldwake. I don't think she will dominate Standard like Jace 2.0 though, so I expect the price will drop eventually.

I agree, she's extremely strong in standard, similar to jtms, creatures now have to pass the 'liliana test'. Standards power level is pretty low now and she's definitely the best walker. Liliana has flatlined at 50 now. As more of the set gets cracked, she should drop. I look forward to picking up a few copies. Especially if in foil, yum yum.

[HAVE HEART]

This is my general thought. Before I had played with/against Lilliana, I was dismissive. She's good. Very good actually. The same argument was made against Batterskull. But when people actually played it in the real world and not in their head, it was proven to be very good.

This is exactly how I felt. Admittedly, I was playing Reanimator when watching her in action, which made her feel like the stones, but she seems good enough against most non-combo matchups. It seems especially strong in the BUGoyf decks, whose win conditions need cards in the graveyard, mitigating the damage done by her first ability. The only problem I see with her is her restrictive, double-color mana cost. It is not double blue (i.e. free), but rather double black.

[DragoFireheart]

Turn 1: Thoughtseize
Turn 2: Hymn to Tourach
Turn 3: Liliana of the Veil
Turn 4: Jace, The Mind Sculptor

[bruizar]

Liliana and Sun Titan is the reason why I'd like to dip into Standard for the first time in my life, and I've been playing the game since Unlimited/Revised, before Standard existed.

[Zalren]

So what is the general concensus on Liliana of the Veil? Decent in Legacy but not $70.00 decent? Wait for the price to come down? Not play at all?

[conboy31]

She should drop down to 30ish fairly soon. I am not looking forward to her decline as I was able to randomly get 6 of her at the pre-release, but it always happens. I have been trying her out as a 2 of in my BG vet explorer, pernicious deeds, birthing pod, recurring nightmare deck. Shes been doing well. There is not much combo in my area, which is a plus.

[Tammit67]

She should drop down to 30ish fairly soon. I am not looking forward to her decline as I was able to randomly get 6 of her at the pre-release, but it always happens. I have been trying her out as a 2 of in my BG vet explorer, pernicious deeds, birthing pod, recurring nightmare deck. Shes been doing well. There is not much combo in my area, which is a plus.

Why would she drop in price when she is seeing play in standard?

[conboy31]

Shes already dropped 10 of the dollars she gained. Her supply will soon outweigh her demand.

[dahcmai]

She's already 30. Check completed auctions. I grabbed my 4th for 25 even. She's good, but only $25 good in my book.


Back on subject, I am really starting to think she's actually Legacy worthy. Been trying to fit her into reanimator and it's looking promising actually.

I kind of think there's a few decks out there that can use a card like this. I have only got to play her a couple of times, especially since I'm not using her in standard, but I am liking it so far.

[morgan_coke]

I think one of Liliana2's most currently overlooked applications is as an anti-combo card in midrange decks, where she works beautifully in conjunction with hatebears. Lili applies pressure to the combo decks hand over time, making it harder to sculpt a perfect "go off through hate" hand, while simultaneously providing a solution to a big critter backup plan, like Emrakul or Dark Confidant.

It's not quite as good as letting non-blue decks interact with the stack would be, but it's a nice start.

[Lemnear]

Except the fact that TES will lay down it's artifact mana and try to float Infernal, Wish or Ad Nauseam on the top and kill you anyways ... Common tech against discard stategies. What combo deck does give a fuck about Liliana? Liliana is good if you played out your hand (pitch shit to her) and push through with her edicts. She's not an anti-combo application

[jandax]

I'd have to agree^^

I wouldn't want to slam it down before combo goes off. Through a lot of testing against aggro decks and some midrange, she's turned out to be a bit of a house. At a four-round local yesterday I went ultimate twice, felt good man. One just generally isn't going to have three/four turns to ultimate her agaisnt combo. Better to run tried and true hate

[KobeBryan]

Ebay prices are so much lower than the ones listed on magiccards.info

I wonder when will the prices match up.

[Sims]

I would just like to state that last night in a game of Legacy I piloted a Mono Black, Bob-less, Thoughtseize-less, Wasteland-less deck with Liliana of the Veil to victory against U/W Stoneblade.

Highlight of the match?

me- 7 lands, Liliana of the Veil, no hand
him- 5 land, Jace the Mindsculptor

I won that game, and Jace hit the bin off Lili's ultimate before the end. And it was awesome.

[TheShaun]

I would just like to state that last night in a game of Legacy I piloted a Mono Black, Bob-less, Thoughtseize-less, Wasteland-less deck with Liliana of the Veil to victory against U/W Stoneblade.

Highlight of the match?

me- 7 lands, Liliana of the Veil, no hand
him- 5 land, Jace the Mindsculptor

I won that game, and Jace hit the bin off Lili's ultimate before the end. And it was awesome.

Please tell me that this was done against who I think it was.

[bruizar]

I am so far not regretting my purchase of Liliana's.

[nedleeds]

Turn 1: Thoughtseize
Turn 2: Hymn to Tourach
Turn 3: Liliana of the Veil
Turn 4: Jace, The Mind Sculptor

UU and BB by turn 4 over a 5-6 round tourney filled with wastelands sounds mathematically distant.

[dahcmai]

I have an interesting new UB aggro deck that's using her and it's starting to look pretty good. I find it funny since the deck is using her buddy snapcaster also. You can't seem to play Liliana without him.

I'm using it more for the edict effect with the side bonus of getting some synergistic discard in, but I like it so far. Bad part is she's fighting for Jace's spot. The edict is the only thing keeping from just blindly using Jace because he's a frigging bomb as usual. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Antonius]

UU and BB by turn 4 over a 5-6 round tourney filled with wastelands sounds mathematically distant.

If you are straight UB as any thuggin gangster would be, then you'll be fine.

[makochman]

I have an interesting new UB aggro deck that's using her and it's starting to look pretty good. I find it funny since the deck is using her buddy snapcaster also. You can't seem to play Liliana without him.


Would you care to share your decklist? I've been mulling over an UB midrange deck for Modern using Snapcaster and Liliana. I really like the synergy with Spell Snare and Dismember, perhaps even Slaughter Pact.

[dahcmai]

It's seriously untested though so I hate posting them up until I at least can decide if it's even worth trying or not. For all I know it dies horribly to elves or something stupid. I'll post it later after I can decide whether or not it's just a pile of crap or not. I just built the thing last week and it's one of those "looks pretty on paper" type things and have only played against random decks that aren't an indicator of much of anything. Don't worry, if it's good, I'll post it up here first anyway. If anything, I still need some hard to get foils for it. : ) Stupid speculators.

Just using the typical UB picks with a lot of edict effects and discard. Reminds me of Pikula.dec with U instead of W.

[bruizar]

Thus far, she's always been more powerful than jace for me. She puts more games into a winning position for me than jace, but jace actually wins through the ultimate.