Modern Banned List

[maritlage]

Personally I believe that WoTC royally #$%@ the pooch with modern. WoTC decided to have a new format for the MOCC's where Wizards gets its ass handed on a silver platter back to them. They introduced this format here
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/144 and as stated in the article was an experiment. Why then do you have a ban list. Why bother with going that far at all. We all know from high school science that to get good results with so many variables you must first have a large enough sample to have a controlled base. But i digress with that part what I am truly up in arms about is the banning following the MOCC. It is like WoTC said "hey we've been doing this for almost 20 years. We know how to make a good healthy format that is fun to play. We don't need any points of data to determine how this format would play out at all. We'll just make it in between standard and legacy. Any cards that dominates legacy that can be played in this new format we'll ban and anything that dominates standard we'll ban. Bam instant great format." That isn't what has happened though. WoTC has continually added to the ban list while unbanning 1 card. Now i don't want all the modern players up in arms of this saying I just don't like how modern is so diverse I can't do broken things like i can in legacy. Trust me your format is not diverse at all. When most of your decks have evolved into either an off shoot of Jund, Jund itself, some sort of pod deck, affinity, or splinter twin constantly in your top 8's and 16's your format isn't diverse. Look at legacy top 8's and 16's and tell me we are not diverse.

[Mr. Safety]

I think most, if not all, Modern players can agree that Legacy is a more diverse format. In my humble opinion Legacy will always be the pinnacle of Magic constructed play. Modern is slightly more diverse than Standard but not as diverse as Legacy. This seems natural to me given the differences in the card pool size.

You basically named the tier decks in your post, which is fine, but there are plenty of different competitive decks in Modern.

Currently, I would put it this way (at my local level):

Tier 1
Jund
B/G Good Stuff
Affinity
Merfolk
Pod (Melira or Kiki)
UWR Control
G/R Tron
Splinter Twin
Junk

Tier 2
RDW
Boros Sligh
Mono-Black Discard (2 variants, one using The Rack/Shrieking Affliction and the other using Inkmoth/Phyrexian Crusader/infect as a win/con)
Mono-Blue Tron
U/B Tezzerator


Tier 3+
Death Cloud
4C Gifts
Ad Nauseam

You have all pillars represented, wih the least represented one being control (true control anyways.) There are plenty of other good decks that simply don't see play in my local area (G/W Hatebears, Martyr.dec, AggroLoam, UR Delver)

I think the format is diverse enough to capture most folks attention, especially people that don't have the cash to enter Legacy but want to play a deeper format. If they have been squirreling away standard staples then they are decently prepared for the format as well, especially considering the recent reprint of the shocklands.

[Arsenal]

I'd put Merfolk in tier 2, but that's just me. I think the banned list allows Modern to be Super Standard. If cards like Stoneforge Mystic and Jace were playable in Modern, it'd essentially be Legacy Lite. I sorta prefer Super Standard as true Legacy is a unique experience I don't want to be poorly imitated by Modern.

[Imperial]

I know I'm a little late to the party, but any thoughts on DRS getting the ban-hammer? I haven't played Modern for a while, so I'd like to hear what some of you gentlemen think.

[JDK]

When most of your decks have evolved into either an off shoot of Jund, Jund itself, some sort of pod deck, affinity, or splinter twin constantly in your top 8's and 16's your format isn't diverse. Look at legacy top 8's and 16's and tell me we are not diverse.
Cannot argue against those diverse Delver, Blade and SnT variants...

:wink:

[Lord Seth]

Now i don't want all the modern players up in arms of this saying I just don't like how modern is so diverse I can't do broken things like i can in legacy. Trust me your format is not diverse at all. When most of your decks have evolved into either an off shoot of Jund, Jund itself, some sort of pod deck, affinity, or splinter twin constantly in your top 8's and 16's your format isn't diverse. Look at legacy top 8's and 16's and tell me we are not diverse.So your argument is that Modern is not diverse because you see some of the same decks consistently do well. So by your argument, no format is diverse, because that's true of every single format. Legacy certainly isn't diverse by your metric, as we certainly see a whole lot of the same decks over and over.


I know I'm a little late to the party, but any thoughts on DRS getting the ban-hammer? I haven't played Modern for a while, so I'd like to hear what some of you gentlemen think.
There was some discussion of it back after GP Detroit where Jund variants managed to be 75% of the Top 8, but the GPs since have been a lot better in diversity so it's died down a bit. I do think it's probably the most bannable card in Jund, though.

[Imperial]

So your argument is that Modern is not diverse because you see some of the same decks consistently do well. So by your argument, no format is diverse, because that's true of every single format. Legacy certainly isn't diverse by your metric, as we certainly see a whole lot of the same decks over and over.


There was some discussion of it back after GP Detroit where Jund variants managed to be 75% of the Top 8, but the GPs since have been a lot better in diversity so it's died down a bit. I do think it's probably the most bannable card in Jund, though.

The way I look at it, the individual cards in Jund lists aren't currently ban-worthy. Still, I'm glad to see that the meta has settled down; I might actually have to get back into modern. :tongue:

[Timber]

Cannot argue against those diverse Delver, Blade and SnT variants...

:wink:

Hey man, those Delver decks are diverse. Some use white with their RU and some use black with their RU. That's F'n diverse.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

The ban list update coming soon I'm interested to what people think are coming on/off the list. I'm hopeful for some liberal unbannings to open up the format more. Ancestral Visions and Bitterblossom both seem fine if nactl comes off the list as well. I'm hoping at least preordain comes off too.

There's no one card I really want to see banned, the format would gain more from unbannings than it would from just continuing to neuter the top few decks.

[Davran]

I'm personally hoping for Preordain as it would have a small but measurable effect on the decks I currently play.

I also think that Stoneforge Mystic is pretty safe, especially since Jitte is also banned.

I don't think they'll unban Bitterblossom, mostly because no one really wants that deck back...even though it would probably be fine in terms of the format.

Wild Nacatl never made sense in the first place, so that one could come off too...though I think if they're going to go down that route they should throw the "control" decks a bone with Preordain or Ancestral Visions as you suggested.

As for what I would like to see banned, I don't think there's really anything. I agree that the format would gain more from some unbannings, especially if those have some effect on reining in the more established archetypes like Twin, Affinity, and Jund. If there's one thing the format needs, it's more variety among "tier 1" decks.

[Arsenal]

In a format where Sword of X and Y + Batterskull exist, I do not want to see Stoneforge Mystic unbanned.

[YamiJoey]

Cards that are obviously not coming off because of various combos or raw power level on their own: Ancestral Vision, Ancient Den, Bitterblossom, Blazing Shoal, Chrome Mox, Cloudpost, Dark Depths, Dread Return, Glimpse of Nature, Great Furnace, Hypergenesis, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Mental Misstep, Punishing Fire, Rite of Flame, Seat of the Synod, Second Sunrise, Seething Song, Sensei's Divining Top, Stoneforge Mystic, Skullclamp, Sword of the Meek, Tree of Tales, Umezawa's Jitte, Vault of Whispers

That leaves:
Bloodbraid Elf - Only recently banned. I don't see us getting this back any time soon.
Golgari Grave-Troll - I really don't see the problem. Dredge is not an issue without Dread Return. Yes, it's a good Creature, but does anyone seriously believe it's better than just a Goyf? Hell, it might even make Graveyard strategies viable again!
Green Sun's Zenith - Honestly, the only true reason I see this on the list is because of Dryad Arbor. Maybe this level of card selection is too much for Modern, but it's not like you're doing anything truly degenerate with it, and it'd make Elves viable again. (Also Druids.)
Ponder/Preordain - One of these should come back. They make combo better, but they make control viable. It'd also be nice to see Delver back as a legitimate deck, and see Young Pyromancer take over a PT.
Wild Nacatl - A 1-mana 3/3 is not an issue any more. It costs a lot of life to get there, and it 'forcing' you into Naya isn't an argument when Deathrite Shaman is in the format.


The only card I see getting a ban is Deathrite Shaman. I have stated my disdain for this card in Modern time and again. This card is too powerful. It is a Burn that is also a 2/2 Unblockable and life gain Spell. It destroys Graveyard strategies on its own. It is a 1-mana Planeswalker. Aside from this it's something completely out of frame like a ban of all five fetchlands or something else insane.

[Lord Seth]

chaos;781930']The ban list update coming soon I'm interested to what people think are coming on/off the list. I'm hopeful for some liberal unbannings to open up the format more. Ancestral Visions and Bitterblossom both seem fine if nactl comes off the list as well. I'm hoping at least preordain comes off too.

There's no one card I really want to see banned, the format would gain more from unbannings than it would from just continuing to neuter the top few decks.
There are only two decks I can see getting a ban: Jund (for being everywhere) or Griselcannon (for pulling off faster-than-turn-4 wins). I don't think either is likely to do so. Jund isn't as powerful as it was when Bloodbraid Elf got the ban, and Griselcannon, while able to win faster than turn 4, isn't a Tier 1 deck (the rule is you can't consistently win before turn 4 in a top-level deck). Though if either got a ban, I'd predict Deathrite Shaman in Jund and Goryo's Vengeance in Griselcannon.

I think unbannings are much more likely. Here are some cards I think might come off:
Golgari Grave-Troll: This card being banned is even more of a joke than Land Tax. It would, at best, elevate a Tier 3 deck or two to Tier 2. The only reasons I can think of for why it's still banned is either Wizards is that terrified of Dredge, or they don't want to unban it unless they're unbanning something else (because no one's going to get excited about this card being unbanned). If it's the latter, it could be combined with another unban.

Ancestral Vision: Drawing three cards on turn 5 is a heck of a lot less powerful than winning the game on turn 4. Cascade is irrelevant, not only because the cascade cards all suck on their own (are you going to play Ardent Plea so you can cast Concentrate for one less mana?), but Living End and even Restore Balance are way better cards to structure cascade around. Second, control has been on the down low for a while. Though control did get a Top 16 finish at the Grand Prix and a UWR Midrange deck won the whole thing, so they might hesitate on that now (no idea if Midrange would be interested in the card, though).

Bitterblossom: Control has been on the down low for a while, but it at least was doing okay earlier last year. The decks this card would be best in are BW Tokens and Faeries, both of which are like Tier 2.5 decks right now and have been since 2012 ended. I've seen a few arguments that Jund might play it (and thus it would be a bad unban, as Jund doesn't need to be more popular than it already is), but I'm not really sure it would be that great in Jund.

Sword of the Meek: Splinter Twin can win the game off of two cards and has redundancy in its combo. Sword of the Meek does not win you the game on the spot (it makes it way harder for your opponent to win, but it isn't an immediate win like Splinter Twin) and does not have redundancy. The combo can't even really be fully assembled into Turn 4 as well; if you cast Thopter Foundry on turn 2 and Sword of the Meek on turn 3, you can't do anything more than make a 2/3 token and gain one life before turn 4. Even if we consider the game unwinnable once it's able to start really using mana to make a wall of blockers and gain life, it can't do that until turn 4. Of course, the point with ThopterSword is not to "win" on turn 4, but instead to have it as an eventual win condition in a control shell. This does not seem more overpowered than what is already in the format. Artifact hate and graveyard hate are both common enough in the format that I do not think this would be a problem. The common argument against it is that it makes things hard for aggro decks, which are already struggling in the format outside of Affinity, but the counterargument is that those aggro decks aren't great to begin with, so it's not like we're pushing out decks that are competitive to begin with. Merfolk has been on the rise lately, but that deck seems rather adept at ignoring the combo thanks to things like islandwalk.

Those are the cards I think are most likely to be unbanned. There are a few others I think are less likely, but still possible:

Wild Nacatl: At the time, Zoo was really really good, and a ban for it might have been necessary. But as many have pointed out, a big reason for that was likely Punishing Fire, as Zoo was able to withstand it due to their creatures having 3+ toughness. Whether or not Wild Nacatl needed to be banned on top of Punishing Fire is hard to determine because they banned them both simultaneously. A point against this being unbanned is the fact that it was banned after the initial banned list, and thus to a certain extent had "its chance" in the format, unlike the three I already mentioned, which were banned before the format even existed and were banned on almost complete speculation.

Preordain: It's highly questionable whether both Preordain and Ponder needed to be banned or if just Ponder would suffice. The biggest issue with this card is that Splinter Twin is a Tier 1 deck with some good finishes (including a recent Grand Prix win), and this slots straight into that to make it better. Still, it may come off anyway with the rationale that it benefits control/tempo enough that it would correspondingly not strengthen combo decks like Splinter Twin. Additionally, like Wild Nacatl, it was banned after the format was created and more concrete data was available, giving them less incentive to think "maybe we were wrong about this?"

Of course, there's also the strong possibility they'll do absolutely nothing and the format will chug on with no changes.

[Megadeus]

Please unban preordain. I found 20 in a box earlier in the week and put them aside

[JDK]

Unless they feel like stirring up the metagame before a PTQ-season I don't think they will touch the list this time.

[nedleeds]

@LordSeth

This is what I've been pissing in the wind about. If I'm just randomly dead to shift or twin on turn 4, or even the nut pod draw into resto jiki then why are other turn 4-5 combo cards (Sword) banned? Or other slow attrition cards like Visions, Bitterblossom, Troll (again dread return is banned) banned? Nacatyl is also good, but there's a bunch of bolt running around and you can't say it's more ubiquitous than DRS is right now.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'm guessing nothing will be banned. PTQ season is coming up and not too far from now GPs too. The format isn't horribly unbalanced and they gave their token unbannings out already (Hey look everyone-who-makes-fun-of-us-for-banning-repeatedly, we unban things too! Have Valakut boring-as-****-combo back!).

Most deserving of a ban is Deathrite Shaman due to it's ability to accelerate every deck while giving them a pretty decent clock and controlling graveyard shenanigans. These aren't as bad as the unfun turn 2 on the play Liliana, which honestly is the only reason it would deserve to be taken out. Turn 2 Liliana behind Birds of Paradise isn't nearly as scary. I don't see them banning it right now because of 1) ridicule for how many things they ban and how many times they've had to do it, and 2) suppressing graveyard shenanigans is usually exactly what they want to do, which is why I never expect to see GGT come off the ban list.

[sublime love]

Bands are done based on a decks power.
Jund is putting up numbers, but it's only cuz most of the meta game is Jund...
Affinity was the deck with the most numbers for day 2 at the GP. But by the end, was no where to be seen.
Jund is popular cuz it sits well vrs most decks. So the average "end boss" good player can pick the deck up, and poop on noobs all day. Wile the noobs pick it up, and pick bad lines of play, and lose.
Nothing will get band, DRS is good. Not broken.
And any goyo deck is a pile of luck draws.
Bitterblossem WILL NEVER BE UNBAND, sorry that card is way too good. (if they ever do, it will auto win PT)
Visions will not get unband. 3 color blue good stuff decks (rwu geist example) that are all one for ones, bolt, helix, leak. Will now be able to auto win after it resolves. You can't fight a deck after they draw 3 cards on turn 5.
Ponder- would break twin, shift, delver, storm. Basically all blue decks. Not happening.
Same for preodain. If they unbanned it, the top decks will ALL be blue.

They won't consider the hammer, until after PT. They will see how a meta of good players, takes modern. This will determine the meta for the next year-ish

[Lord Seth]

Unless they feel like stirring up the metagame before a PTQ-season I don't think they will touch the list this time.Actually, the Modern PTQ season is delayed this year. After the current Standard season (which ends in March), there will be a Sealed season, and THEN we move to Modern. As each PTQ season is about three months (as there's four of them per year now), I think the Modern PTQ season starts in like June or something. If they want to unban something and not do it shortly before a PTQ season, they either have to do it now or wait until late 2013.


Bitterblossem WILL NEVER BE UNBAND, sorry that card is way too good. (if they ever do, it will auto win PT)
How is it way too good? Lingering Souls gives you tokens way faster. Let's compare...
Turn 3: Bitterblossom gives you one token and you lose a life. Lingering Souls gives you two tokens.
Turn 4: Bitterblossom gives you a second token and you have lost two life. Lingering Souls gives you four tokens. Note also that you can attack with one Bitterblossom token but two Lingering Souls tokens.
Turn 5: Bitterblossom gives you a third token and you've lost three life, only two of which can attack. Lingering Souls has given you four tokens, all of which can attack.
Turn 6: Bitterblossom gives you a fourth token and you've lost four life, only three of which can attack. Lingering Souls has given you four tokens, all of which can attack.
Turn 7: Bitteblossom gives you a fifth token, FINALLY giving you more than Lingering Souls, though you've lost five life to do so. At this point you can attack with four Bitterblossom tokens, equal to four Lingering Souls tokens.
Turn 8: At this point, Bitterblossom is actually stronger, letting you attack with five tokens versus Lingering Soul's four. However, you've lost 6 life and have had to wait until Turn 8 for this to happen.

So Bitterblossom takes much longer to pay off AND requires you to lose life to work. And notice that in terms of later game topdecks, Lingering Souls can give you 4 tokens on the spot whereas Bitterblossom requires 5 turns (and 5 life) to do that.

In a format where Lingering Souls exists, it seems very difficult to argue that Bitterblossom is "way too good." Now, to be fair, Bitterblossom does have an edge that Lingering Souls does not: Its power with Faeries. But is even that too powerful? A number of people have tried to test out possible new builds with Bitterblossom and have found them lacking compared to the other decks in the format. This is to say nothing of the cards recently printed that are quite powerful against Faeries. For example, the deck has real issues trying to beat Voice of Resurgence, and Abrupt Decay of course is a great way to smash Bitterblossom. You can't just claim it's "way too good"; you need a real argument for it that doesn't rely on it being allegedly too good in a format that had a quite different card pool than Modern.


Visions will not get unband. 3 color blue good stuff decks (rwu geist example) that are all one for ones, bolt, helix, leak. Will now be able to auto win after it resolves. You can't fight a deck after they draw 3 cards on turn 5.
All right. How about the inability to fight a deck after they win the game on turn 4? The fact that people somehow think that winning the game on turn 4 is A-OK but drawing three cards on turn 5 is too powerful baffles me. And, of course, Ancestral Vision is a do-nothing topdeck if drawn later in the game.


Ponder- would break twin, shift, delver, storm. Basically all blue decks. Not happening.
Storm, Scapeshift, and Delver could actually really use a boost right now, especially Storm. It would be rather degenerate in Twin decks, though.


Same for preodain. If they unbanned it, the top decks will ALL be blue.
Now this I disagree with. Preordain is good, but it's not in the same league as Ponder, and I'd say it would actually power up some decks that need a power boost (e.g. Scapeshift, Delver of Secrets, and Storm). Its biggest issue is that Splinter Twin is already really great and would benefit from it, though not even close to the extent that Ponder would.

Also, it's "ban" and "banned", not "band". A "band" is a group and an old confusing Magic mechanic, and has nothing to do with a card being banned.

[FTW]

So Bitterblossom takes much longer to pay off AND requires you to lose life to work. And notice that in terms of later game topdecks, Lingering Souls can give you 4 tokens on the spot whereas Bitterblossom requires 5 turns (and 5 life) to do that.

You need to consider all types of cost if you're going to do a flat out comparison like that. BB cost you 5 life and 5 turns vs Souls costing 0 life and 2 turns. But BB costs 1B while Souls costs you 3WB in that scenario. Given people are willing to pay 3 life to get an untapped shock of your choice on turn 1 in this format, mana can potentially be more valuable than life, so that 5 life required for Blossom to pay off may be worth less than the extra 2W depending on the deck. BB also leaves you open to cast business or counterspells on turns 3/4 whereas using Souls like that taps down your mana both those main phases. Mana cost and tempo matter just like life and turns. Notably, Lingering Souls is harder to cast in a deck that wants to play counterspells that cost 1UUU.

Souls is definitely a better topdeck, and if just looking at BW tokens deck and no others, Souls is probably better overall for all its flexibility. There's a reason Souls get played more in Legacy even though both are legal. The thing is, BW tokens isn't why BB is banned.

So why is BB banned? It's of type "Faerie" and makes things of type "Faerie". Faerie decks don't care about spirit tokens. And you only have to tap out mainphase of turn 2 to play it and then you never have to commit mainphase mana again, which is amazing for a UB control deck. It alone lets you Spellstutter @ 2, 1U for Spell Snare+Mental Misstep and a 1/1 flying body. Including the tokens, you can Spellstutter @ infinity, which is pretty amazing. The tokens also benefit from one of the best lords ever printed (Flash +shroud seems good) and kind of kill you while the Faerie player spends the next 5 turns countering everything you try to do.

Ancestral Visions is mediocre in general, but it's amazing in a deck that wants to go T1 Visions, T2 Blossom, T3 counter stuff, T4 counter stuff + draw, T5 Ancestral recall? cool, counter more stuff.

[JDK]

Actually, the Modern PTQ season is delayed this year. After the current Standard season (which ends in March), there will be a Sealed season, and THEN we move to Modern. As each PTQ season is about three months (as there's four of them per year now), I think the Modern PTQ season starts in like June or something. If they want to unban something and not do it shortly before a PTQ season, they either have to do it now or wait until late 2013.

I know PTQ Season is starting Mid-2014, but if they change the banlist now, the metagame is most likely still not settled with the start of the season. That's why I think they will wait for the new set's impact on Modern and PT's metagame, before changing the list again.

[Megadeus]

Oh man. What will people do if the internet is unable to tell them what deck to play!

[Lord Seth]

Souls is definitely a better topdeck, and if just looking at BW tokens deck and no others, Souls is probably better overall for all its flexibility. There's a reason Souls get played more in Legacy even though both are legal. The thing is, BW tokens isn't why BB is banned.Clearly. However, that was only part of my message, showing how, for the decks that don't care about the creature types, Lingering Souls is just way more powerful.


So why is BB banned? It's of type "Faerie" and makes things of type "Faerie". Faerie decks don't care about spirit tokens. And you only have to tap out mainphase of turn 2 to play it and then you never have to commit mainphase mana again, which is amazing for a UB control deck. It alone lets you Spellstutter @ 2, 1U for Spell Snare+Mental Misstep and a 1/1 flying body. Including the tokens, you can Spellstutter @ infinity, which is pretty amazing. The tokens also benefit from one of the best lords ever printed (Flash +shroud seems good) and kind of kill you while the Faerie player spends the next 5 turns countering everything you try to do.
But here's the thing. That's a bit powerful. You know what else is powerful? The rest of the format. Turn 3 Karn Liberated. The crazy starts Affinity can pull off. Jund's sheer efficiency (and the occasional turn 2 Liliana). Birthing Pod's ability to tutor up answers or just win the game on the spot while being a decent beatdown deck even if it doesn't get the Pod. Splinter Twin's ability to be an effective tempo deck that can also pull out an instant win out of nowhere. Infect's potential turn 2 wins. Faeries with Bitterblossom is certainly good, but is it actually better than the other things in the format, or even equal to them?

Actually test out "fully-powered" Faeries (that is, with Bitterblossom and Ancestral Vision) against the current decks in Modern and you might be very surprised by how not overpowered it tends to actually be. There are entire decks or powerful cards it never had to deal with in Extended that are very effective against it.


Ancestral Visions is mediocre in general, but it's amazing in a deck that wants to go T1 Visions, T2 Blossom, T3 counter stuff, T4 counter stuff + draw, T5 Ancestral recall? cool, counter more stuff.
This Just In: Decks are powerful when they get the nut draws and curve out perfectly.

Regardless, the question is not whether it would be safe to unban. It's whether or not they will unban them. I think Bitterblossom is probably the most likely unban because it goes into none of the top decks and was banned on simple speculation rather than concrete data showing it was overpowered in Modern. I don't think they're likely to simultaneously unleash Ancestral Vision and Bitterblossom, though.

[JDK]

Oh man. What will people do if the internet is unable to tell them what deck to play!

It's not about getting netdeckers to think about their own decks, you cannot do that by just changing the banlist slightly. It's about having a stable format for MTG's premier events.

[Phoenix Ignition]

This Just In: Decks are powerful when they get the nut draws and curve out perfectly.

Regardless, the question is not whether it would be safe to unban. It's whether or not they will unban them. I think Bitterblossom is probably the most likely unban because it goes into none of the top decks and was banned on simple speculation rather than concrete data showing it was overpowered in Modern. I don't think they're likely to simultaneously unleash Ancestral Vision and Bitterblossom, though.

If you have to redefine "the nut draws" to mean having 1 Ancestral Visions and 1 Bitterblossom in their starting 8 I think you're arguing on the side of BB being too strong. Remand, Mana Leak, Condescend, and Spellstutter provide tons of ways to counter stuff in a deck running BB, and that's not even digging deeper into what counterspells could be played in modern (Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Cryptic Command, etc.). BB isn't better than Lingering Souls because of token generation, it's better because it keeps your mana much freer than any other threat generator. It's like why people play Goyf in blue decks. Also, Lingering souls dies to a pyroclasm whereas BB really doesn't.

[Megadeus]

Are you implying that the unbanning of a card will make the format unstable? Aren't there also two set releases before the PT season as well? Are we just assuming that those sets will have absolutely nothing of good use that couple potentially shake up the meta? Why would unbanning a card next month ruin a PTQ season that is 6 months from now?

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I think the argument trying to be made here isn't that bitterblossom isn't powerful. It's that it's power level isn't too high for the format. Is modern that fragile of a format what is essentially a standard deck is too powerful to be played?

[Phoenix Ignition]

chaos;782765']I think the argument trying to be made here isn't that bitterblossom isn't powerful. It's that it's power level isn't too high for the format. Is modern that fragile of a format what is essentially a standard deck is too powerful to be played?

Great Furnace, Vault of Whispers, Seat of the Synod, Ancient Den, and Tree of Tales all wave.

[Lord Seth]

If you have to redefine "the nut draws" to mean having 1 Ancestral Visions and 1 Bitterblossom in their starting 8 I think you're arguing on the side of BB being too strong.
No, the nut draw was not having Ancestral Vision and Bitterblossom in their starting 8, though you're already a bit lucky if you pulled that. The nut draw was having Ancestral Vision and Bitterblossom in their starting 8 and hitting the first four land drops perfectly and drawing a non-Cryptic Command counterspell by turn 3 that will actually counter whatever is being played and a Cryptic Command by turn 4. That seems a pretty nut draw to me.

Not to mention the fact that even that nut draw let the opponent do whatever the heck they wanted on turns 1 and 2, which can mean a lot of fairly dangerous things are already happening while the Faeries player has been durdling around. I can think of tons of stuff Jund could have done by that time that leaves Faeries feeling really flummoxed, especially if Jund has an Abrupt Decay ready to take out any threats.


Remand, Mana Leak, Condescend, and Spellstutter provide tons of ways to counter stuff in a deck running BB, and that's not even digging deeper into what counterspells could be played in modern (Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Cryptic Command, etc.). BB isn't better than Lingering Souls because of token generation, it's better because it keeps your mana much freer than any other threat generator. It's like why people play Goyf in blue decks. Also, Lingering souls dies to a pyroclasm whereas BB really doesn't.Again, test it out. Grab an old Faeries deck, make a few modifications (seriously, Faeries hasn't gained much from the transition, unlike other decks like Jund, Urzatron, or Affinity), and play it out against some of the big Modern decks. Faeries doesn't exist in a vacuum in Modern, it exists in a deck with a lot of decks that are doing really powerful things, about a third of which are running Abrupt Decay. I know I keep harping on that, but Abrupt Decay is extremely effective against Faeries and its influence on the format should not be overlooked.

Faeries is not that amazing in this format. In fact, I'd argue that it needs Bitterblossom and/or Ancestral Vision to be playable... they don't make it amazing, they just makes it playable rather than the Tier 2.5/3 deck it currently is.


Great Furnace, Vault of Whispers, Seat of the Synod, Ancient Den, and Tree of Tales all wave.
But Affinity in Modern isn't a Standard deck. Let's take a look at some of the cards it runs:
Ornithopter
Signal Pest
Vault Skirge
Etched Champion
Steel Overseer
Memnite
Galvanic Blast
Mox Opal
Springleaf Drum
Inkmoth Nexus

You know what all of these cards have in common? They weren't legal when Mirrodin was in Standard! Yeah, Modern Affinity has access to a lot of great cards that the original Affinity didn't have access to. It may have lost the artifact lands, but it's able to be a Tier 1 deck because it's gained all of the stuff I just listed. Faeries, meanwhile, has gained... what? I mean, Snapcaster Mage is good and all, but he doesn't really power up the deck much.

[JDK]

Are you implying that the unbanning of a card will make the format unstable? Aren't there also two set releases before the PT season as well? Are we just assuming that those sets will have absolutely nothing of good use that couple potentially shake up the meta? Why would unbanning a card next month ruin a PTQ season that is 6 months from now?
*5 months
The unbanning of cards *could* shake up the metagame and no one can say when it's going to settle down - most likely it takes month to figure out new decks, integration and adjustments. Wizards designs new sets with Modern in mind and they know what's coming up and have a better grasp on what is going to have an impact on the format before the PTQ season, but of course there could be some format warping cards in it. I doubt it, though.


chaos;782765']I think the argument trying to be made here isn't that bitterblossom isn't powerful. It's that it's power level isn't too high for the format. Is modern that fragile of a format what is essentially a standard deck is too powerful to be played?
Faeries wouldn't result in a more diverse format, it would just force other decks out of existence.

[Megadeus]

I just don't buy into the assumption that unbanning a card next month could result in a possibly volatile meta in 5 months. Sure there aren't large tournaments, but there are still modern locals, MTGO, and lots of in house play testing that can be done. And like I said, there honestly might be a card in either this or the next set, since both come out before the next modern season, that could have potentially format or at least archetype defining cards

Hell if nothing else and everything falls apart, there is another time that they could ban the offending card again before the season starts

[Lord Seth]

Faeries wouldn't result in a more diverse format, it would just force other decks out of existence.
By this argument we should never unban anything ever, and should re-ban Valakut to bring back the decks it forced out of existence.

[JDK]

"By this argument we should never unban anything ever" - No, because not every card/deck is the bane of several others and the format is constantly growing, with every new set (read: a time may come, when a banned card is not as powerful or threatening anymore - like Valakut in the past).

" and should re-ban Valakut to bring back the decks it forced out of existence" - Valakut/Scapeshift wasn't a monster (anymore) when it got unbanned - guess what, that's why it got unbanned. It was an addition to the format that resulted in another archetype, but without forcing others out of existence.

My take on a full fledged Faerie.dec in Modern is, that it would be too well equipped to handle all kind of decks, making it the blue BGx.dec and leading to fewer competitive decks.
Unbans should add new perspectives to the format, while not lessening diversity - I believe that Bitterblossom would do the latter.

[Megadeus]

So BG with all around good match ups is fine but blue isn't?

[Phoenix Ignition]

No, the nut draw was not having Ancestral Vision and Bitterblossom in their starting 8, though you're already a bit lucky if you pulled that. The nut draw was having Ancestral Vision and Bitterblossom in their starting 8 and hitting the first four land drops perfectly and drawing a non-Cryptic Command counterspell by turn 3 that will actually counter whatever is being played and a Cryptic Command by turn 4. That seems a pretty nut draw to me.
I don't think it's that unreasonable to have 1 Ancestral Vision, 1 Bitterblossom, 1 Remand/Manaleak/(other conditional counterspell such as Spell Pierce/Snare or Spellstutter Sprite), and 4 lands by turn 4. But this is a ridiculously silly thing to be talking about the statistics of hypergeometric distributions involving arbitrary decklists that don't even exist.



But Affinity in Modern isn't a Standard deck. Let's take a look at some of the cards it runs:
Ornithopter
Signal Pest
Vault Skirge
Etched Champion
Steel Overseer
Memnite
Galvanic Blast
Mox Opal
Springleaf Drum
Inkmoth Nexus

You know what all of these cards have in common? They weren't legal when Mirrodin was in Standard! Yeah, Modern Affinity has access to a lot of great cards that the original Affinity didn't have access to. It may have lost the artifact lands, but it's able to be a Tier 1 deck because it's gained all of the stuff I just listed. Faeries, meanwhile, has gained... what? I mean, Snapcaster Mage is good and all, but he doesn't really power up the deck much.
Do you believe what you said? I'm just curious because you could actually look at decklists and determine what cards have changed since Faeries in Standard and come to the conclusion that it is different.

First of all, manabase, which is a HUUUUGE boost to any multicolored decks. Modern lets you run 3 colors without really getting hurt by it, or it lets you run 2 colors and a few utility lands (Tectonic Edge, Mutavault). UBr gives you access to quick removal and reach in the form of Lightning Bolts and Terminates. Green gives you catch-alls in your own Abrupt Decays or fast clocks with Goyf. The 2 color GB deck has shown how powerful taking a color out of Jund is as long as you get some mana disruption in there to boot.

Looking at the standard mana bases:


2 Faerie Conclave
5 Island
4 Mutavault
2 Pendelhaven
4 River of Tears
4 Secluded Glen
4 Underground River
This manabase is horse shit compared to a bunch of fetchlands and dual lands. Creeping Tar Pit is the best manland in the format. I don't really even want to go more into depth on this subject since I really hope it's obvious how much a manabase can make or break a deck.

How about the utility spells?


4 Ancestral Visions
4 Bitterblossom
4 Cryptic Command good so far, though I'd consider cutting down a Cryptic in the faster format of today.

4 Rune Snag
4 Terror
Yech. So maybe back in the day these were good enough, but Rune Snag is kinda shitty and Terror is only good if you don't have to worry about black creatures. Certainly some much better all around cards like Remand improve decks? I mean it is the most played counterspell in Modern after all, and no one could argue that Remand helps a lot more than normal when you generate tokens every turn.

Creatures?


4 Mistbind Clique
3 Pestermite
4 Scion of Oona
4 Spellstutter Sprite
Well I'm pretty sure Vendilion Clique is the best stand alone faerie out there (there's a reason he costs ~$100) and that wasn't in the Standard faerie decks. If we look to Legacy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19582-Deck-Tempo-Faeries&highlight=faerie) faerie decks as any indication of what high level cards might be played in there you'd find that Tombstalker is a pretty big fatty that complements them nicely. You mentioned Snapcaster Mage as it is also a great source of card advantage. In fact, you'd probably run 0 Scions, 0 Pestermites (unless you splash Splinter Twin Combo), and 0 Mistbinds in any good list. You're probably only keeping the Spellstutters from those lists.

So yeah, aside from the entire manabase, at least 2/5ths of the spells, and over half of the creatures you'd be playing, I guess you're right that Modern Faeries decks would be the same as the old Standard ones.

[Quasim0ff]

Faeries would, without doubt, be a good deck.

However, the new BGx decks would have a really easy time faeries up. Faeries would be strong against combo, but would be really sad vs bgx decks.

[Lord Seth]

So yeah, aside from the entire manabase, at least 2/5ths of the spells, and over half of the creatures you'd be playing, I guess you're right that Modern Faeries decks would be the same as the old Standard ones.Okay, now here's the problem. You're under the incorrect assumption I was talking about Standard Faeries. I was talking about Extended Faeries. I suppose I could've done a better job explaining that as I was talking about Standard Affinity just a moment before, but I was talking about Extended Faeries. And outside of the better manabase (which I don't count as relevant because that benefits everyone) and Snapcaster Mage, every card you listed was available to that deck. Maybe they didn't necessarily play it, but they had access to those cards and chose not to run them.


"By this argument we should never unban anything ever" - No, because not every card/deck is the bane of several others and the format is constantly growing, with every new set (read: a time may come, when a banned card is not as powerful or threatening anymore - like Valakut in the past).The point is, your argument can be used against any unban. Even something as bad as Golgari Grave-Troll could possibly throw a few Tier 3 decks out the window because everyone playing them would switch to a slightly less awful Tier 2.5 deck.


" and should re-ban Valakut to bring back the decks it forced out of existence" - Valakut/Scapeshift wasn't a monster (anymore) when it got unbanned - guess what, that's why it got unbanned. It was an addition to the format that resulted in another archetype, but without forcing others out of existence.And, what do you know, some people predicted that Valakut would force other decks out of existence. And to a certain extent any new deck must, because people playing those decks are people not playing another deck.


My take on a full fledged Faerie.dec in Modern is, that it would be too well equipped to handle all kind of decks, making it the blue BGx.dec and leading to fewer competitive decks.
"All kinds of decks"? Try "some decks." Faeries gets eaten alive by some of the strategies in Modern. It's exactly the kind of deck that Jund smashes. Melira Pod seems extremely strong against it as well, because a Birthing Pod in play negates a lot of counterspells, Voice of Resurgence gives card advantage to the Melira Pod player when Faeries tries to counter spells, and Abrupt Decay is... well, Abrupt Decay. Guess what, Faeries in Modern with Bitterblossom and/or Ancestral Vision has its good matchups and its bad matchups. Just like... every deck in the format. And if a deck would not be too powerful--and I stick by my opinion that "full-powered" Faeries would not be--then it should not be banned out of the format.

I'm not sure why I'm so gung-ho about unbanning these cards considering Faeries is actually pretty good against the deck I play, but it has enough bad matchups against top decks that I really can't see it as overtaking the format.


Unbans should add new perspectives to the format, while not lessening diversity - I believe that Bitterblossom would do the latter.
If Faeries leads to lower diversity, I highly doubt it'll be because Faeries is such a powerful deck it would push other things out. More likely, the lack of diversity would be the fact it's such a dog to Jund that it indirectly makes Jund even better.

[JDK]

So BG with all around good match ups is fine but blue isn't?
I don't know about you, but I think one well-rounded strategy like BGx.dec is enough for the format to handle.


The point is, your argument can be used against any unban. Even something as bad as Golgari Grave-Troll could possibly throw a few Tier 3 decks out the window because everyone playing them would switch to a slightly less awful Tier 2.5 deck.
The card pool and format changes and decks possibly get new tools to fight currently banned cards/strategies. To some extent you can also predict, if such a card/strategy will have this kind of impact or not. So no, it cannot.


And, what do you know, some people predicted that Valakut would force other decks out of existence. And to a certain extent any new deck must, because people playing those decks are people not playing another deck.
You forget that a new deck doesn't only make people switch decks, but also join the format. There's also a difference between "I like the new deck better" and "I cannot play my deck anymore, because the new one just wrecks it".

"some people" - mkay


"All kinds of decks"? Try "some decks." Faeries gets eaten alive by some of the strategies in Modern. It's exactly the kind of deck that Jund smashes. Melira Pod seems extremely strong against it as well, because a Birthing Pod in play negates a lot of counterspells, Voice of Resurgence gives card advantage to the Melira Pod player when Faeries tries to counter spells, and Abrupt Decay is... well, Abrupt Decay. Guess what, Faeries in Modern with Bitterblossom and/or Ancestral Vision has its good matchups and its bad matchups. Just like... every deck in the format. And if a deck would not be too powerful--and I stick by my opinion that "full-powered" Faeries would not be--then it should not be banned out of the format.
Decay isn't back-breaking to Faeries and a resolved Pod is good against any deck.

We think differently about Faerie's potential, that's fine. In the end, it doesn't matter anyway, since we don't make the calls, so there is no point in further elaborating it.

[Megadeus]

I mean by that logic that you used in your last sentence there, why should we even have this thread if we don't call the shots?

[Arsenal]

I'd be happy to see a non-BGx well-rounded deck in Modern.

[Megadeus]

I feel like the UWx decks are decently well rounded or at least can be made to be well rounded.

[JDK]

I mean by that logic that you used in your last sentence there, why should we even have this thread if we don't call the shots?
This was in the context of Lord Seth's and my discussion. I don't see any point to continue talking about this. If others feel differently, why shouldn't they be allowed to do otherwise? Why shouldn't people talk about changes in the banlist, articles (the reason why this thread was started) and whatnot? Just because I am done posting how I feel about Faeries compared to another user? Please, Megadeus.

[rxavage]

While I would love to see both BB and AV unbanned I think Visions may be too good in fae or uwr in modern's context atm, drawing 3 cards potentially on turn 5 with access to 5 mana is probably just too much for many of the decks played currently. But Blossom would definitely bring a few decks up half a tier and I don't see fae pushing any relevant decks out of the meta with BB.

[Mr. Safety]

I think Nacatl could be a potential unban. Non-affinity, non-jund aggro deck's struggle too much in a format designed to be interactive by wotc. Stoneforge, bitterblossom, and visions would all suppress aggro even more. I don't see those coming free.

I actually like the position of the format currently. I would rather see some exciting new tech printed before banning/unbanning happens again.

[MrShine]

Just going to preface this: I'm also quite happy with the state of the format right now. Banning BBE was a good call and it has really helped stop the oppressive, unanswerable card advantage from Jund (in a format where there is not really a good source of raw CA).

Preordain - this one came off to put a dent in the Storm decks, and to a lesser extent any other combo decks that might emerge. Wizards is really against consistent combo in the format, and its hard to see them unbanning this when they took it off to hamper combo. Keep in mind that they are worried about future decks being enabled, which is pretty much Preordain's M.O.

Now, while I don't necessarily mind strong combo, fighting Storm was tough even with the Uxx counter everything deck outside of skewing to run MD Spell Pierces and the like (which are not great against the rest of the format). I'd like to see it come off to help Control and Midrange strategies, but without them printing something else to help suppress combo (like Force Spike) it's a risky move, else, as was mentioned, Twin would start crushing.

Wild Nacatl - I'd like to see this come off. He's still highly answerable (Bolt, Decay, Liliana, Helix, Path) and thus fits in nicely to the Tier one meta, while enabling Zoo as the fast-pressure-don't-get-greedy deck. As to whether its presence would push out lower Tier decks; Nacatl adds a lot of consistency to aggro and thus yes, durlde.dec gets risky as a strategy, so this decision sort of depends on whether you want to see more streamlined, powerful strategies take center stage (which as Legacy players we all favour). The Zoo presence might spark an uptick in Control viability, which isn't a bad thing in the meta right now (UWR is certainly not dominant). Although again, they already banned it once so its unlikely they'll reneg, regardless of the logic behind it.

Thopter Foundry Combo (Sword of the Meek) - This was highly dominant in extended, but it was more due to the viability of the deck as a whole - really, it played backup to the Depths/Hexmage combo, giving you something to do if you didn't draw the nuts. Wasn't that deck playing Chrome Mox, also? verdict: Safe to unban. Plenty of answers (Decay, once again, Grudge, Grip, Stony Silence, RIP and Surgical Extraction/Extirpate). Might lead to more control, and again I wouldn't be upset about that.

@Bitterblossom / Faeries debate - its hard to tell what to say about this. I think in the end Wizards isn't going to reintroduce the "Faeries Menace" for the bad vibes it recalls, regardless of whether it will actually be dominant. While I'd like to BB come off, pushing the format towards a more decision heavy, intricate Tier 1 meta, this might not be what they are going for. Again, I'd say the majority of Legacy players favour more of a Stack-oriented slant than say Standard players, which are who Wizards cares about. In terms of answers, there is stuff like Pierce, Spell Snare, Decay, Wear/Tear, Explosives... Its all there, decks would just have to adjust to be able to handle it.

Ancestral Visions - might be too strong for the Uxx Tempo / control decks, which are just on the verge of T1, and having a source of CA to refill could be dangerous. Helps fight against the Thoughtseize heavy meta, however, and its still susceptible to a T1 'Seize on the draw. Also possible that they may just die (T4 combo, burn, or just Affinity) before it ever resolves. Unclear how good it would actually be, but is on the verge of being dangerous and possibly too much. It does, however, kind of eat it to Remand ;)

All in all, I think what could work is unbanning ALL of the following: Nacatl, Sword of the Meek, BB (and maaaaaaaybe Visions), to create a new T1 meta including (not limited to) Jund, UWR, Uxx Delver/Tempo, Twin, Affinity, Zoo, Ub Faeries/Control, and Tron, at the risk of pushing out some Durdle T2/3 decks. New archetypes could get introduced too; BW tokens might be a thing, as could Esper Control w/ Thopter/Sword.

Oh, and Golgari Grave Troll should join the party too :)

If nothing was unbanned, I would consider cutting DRS from the format. OK with it for now, but its definitely one of the top 5 cards of the format.

TLDR: Reprint Force Spike!

(sorry for wall of txt :/)

EDIT: Interesting Article from Conley RE Modern Ban List

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/breaking-through-molding-modern/

[JDK]

Preordain - this one came off to put a dent in the Storm decks
Don't forget Twin, which won the PT which led to this ban.

[FTW]

Interesting article.

His unban suggestions can be summarized as follows though:
Jund is too strong and we need more diverse midrange decks, therefore I would like to see Punishing Fire and Green Sun's Zenith unbanned because that totes wouldn't just enable a sick Punishing Jund list. Heck, let's unban Bloodbraid Elf too.

Blossom would be interesting but Faeries seems strong..
Nacatl should be unbanned already. Delver and DRS and both better 1-drops (See Legacy)

[MrShine]

http://blog.mtgmadness.com/index.php/food-for-thought-grand-prix-prague-the-evolution-of-modern/pierre-dagen

More on the Ban List, and the Format in general. He also favours the Kitty and Sword coming off, and apparently doesn't see a problem with Visions. If BB stayed banned I could see Visions coming off.

[JDK]

http://blog.mtgmadness.com/index.php/food-for-thought-grand-prix-prague-the-evolution-of-modern/pierre-dagen

More on the Ban List, and the Format in general. He also favours the Kitty and Sword coming off, and apparently doesn't see a problem with Visions. If BB stayed banned I could see Visions coming off.

Honestly, in my opinion, the article isn't very well thought through. It seems more like a he was writing down his observations from one tournament (GP Prague) and generalizing this for the whole format. Yeah, I know he is a pro player and I am not, but it doesn't take a PT finish to figure out that UR Delver isn't midrange, UWR Control is more relevant than Infect and Bogle and that Dezani's sideboarding also covers aggro and control.

Besides, the term midrange is so overused these days.

[MrShine]

Honestly, in my opinion, the article isn't very well thought through. It seems more like a he was writing down his observations from one tournament (GP Prague) and generalizing this for the whole format. Yeah, I know he is a pro player and I am not, but it doesn't take a PT finish to figure out that UR Delver isn't midrange, UWR Control is more relevant than Infect and Bogle and that Dezani's sideboarding also covers aggro and control.

Besides, the term midrange is so overused these days.

I think what he's trying to point out is that the decks that are popular and successful at the moment all have a combination of "midrange" elements - Creatures which cost 1-4 mana, Card selection/advantage, Removal and Disruption - In that sense UR Delver is quite midrange, seeking to make some selection plays while backing up a couple creatures with countermagic, removal. I understand that this fits the "Tempo" definition better, but I'm not sure there is really a strong delineation between tempo and midrange in modern (lacking free counterspells and effective manadisruption). He did put UWR in the top tier and Infect/Bogle into the Cheez category.

The takeaway is that there are no real true Aggro or Control decks, and if you're split between the two, you'll get labelled midrange, simply for lack of a better definition. And what he is promoting is diversification into having Aggro and Control as versatile and legitimate options, and for them to be good enough for Pros to want to play (instead of always going for the consistent option IE midrange).

[Megadeus]

A lot of recent articles on unbanning, which I would be perfectly fine with, but I think it may be too late. I'm sure WOTC already has figured out by now if they want to unban something or not.

[MrShine]

Oh, for sure. Its questionable they even dig deep enough into the community to see these articles regardless.

Still, I think in the end its an interesting topic because understanding the format helps with meta evaluations and thus deck selection / sideboarding in the future.

[Megadeus]

Oh, for sure. Its questionable they even dig deep enough into the community to see these articles regardless.

Still, I think in the end its an interesting topic because understanding the format helps with meta evaluations and thus deck selection / sideboarding in the future.

I believe that they do listen to the overall gripe and listen to what the more well known players have to say and such. Especially considering a lot of the time pros basically just reiterate what the rest of the internet has been saying for a month.

[JDK]

I think what he's trying to point out is that the decks that are popular and successful at the moment all have a combination of "midrange" elements - Creatures which cost 1-4 mana, Card selection/advantage, Removal and Disruption - In that sense UR Delver is quite midrange, seeking to make some selection plays while backing up a couple creatures with countermagic, removal. I understand that this fits the "Tempo" definition better, but I'm not sure there is really a strong delineation between tempo and midrange in modern (lacking free counterspells and effective manadisruption). He did put UWR in the top tier and Infect/Bogle into the Cheez category.

The takeaway is that there are no real true Aggro or Control decks, and if you're split between the two, you'll get labelled midrange, simply for lack of a better definition. And what he is promoting is diversification into having Aggro and Control as versatile and legitimate options, and for them to be good enough for Pros to want to play (instead of always going for the consistent option IE midrange).
Those elements aren't exclusive to midrange, since aggro-control is still out there. UR Delver is not midrange. You don't have or need acceleration, you don't try to control the early game and finish with beats exclusively - you do as you have to. Need to stick a T1 Delver and ride it to victory? You can do so. Play the control game and finish with Snapcaster and Clique? Sure thing.
He just didn't even mention UWR Control. I am not talking about the "midrange" Geist builds, but Wafo-Tapa's draw-go deck, which is still a thing.

Of course there are "true" aggro and control decks. Despite the synergy, Affinity is still aggro. So are Burn and Merfolk. UWR Control is still control. Putting a "midrange" label on every deck not purely being aggro or control is just a convenient way to rant.
If there are only aggro, midrange and control, which category does Tron fit best? It's a crossover between midrange and control. Or Scapeshift? Control and combo. "Tempo" Twin? More control than midrange.

Dunno, I just think it's tedious to read the term "midrange" for every deck to justify that "Modern is all about midrange". Sure there's a lot of it, but there is more to it than that.

[Mr. Safety]

Anybody thinking there will be a change in the B/R list for Modern when Born of the Gods hits? I think there will be some changes but I'm too chicken to predict anything, lol.

[JACO]

I think we may see Wild Nacatl and Bitterblossom come off the Banned List for Modern. Bitterblossom has jumped in price the past couple of weeks, as it looks like others are trying to finish up their playsets just in case.

[Davran]

Anybody thinking there will be a change in the B/R list for Modern when Born of the Gods hits? I think there will be some changes but I'm too chicken to predict anything, lol.

I'm thinking no change...but I'm hoping we get Preordain back. I can't see them doing anything "untested" like letting Bitterblossom or Ancestral Visions in, and I don't see anything getting banned unless they do something crazy like go after Deathrite Shaman or Splinter Twin. Of the two, Twin is the closest to violating the "turn 4" principle...but I don't think there's anything all that unfair about the deck.

[DragoFireheart]

Any permanent with a CMC of 1-3 can safely come off the banned list.

Abrupt Decay.

[Lord Seth]

Any permanent with a CMC of 1-3 can safely come off the banned list.

Abrupt Decay.So, you're claiming Skullclamp is a safe unban?

[Lemnear]

I'm thinking no change...but I'm hoping we get Preordain back. I can't see them doing anything "untested" like letting Bitterblossom or Ancestral Visions in, and I don't see anything getting banned unless they do something crazy like go after Deathrite Shaman or Splinter Twin. Of the two, Twin is the closest to violating the "turn 4" principle...but I don't think there's anything all that unfair about the deck.

That "turn 4" principle is the dumbest crutch on modern ... "ensure via bannings, that no fragile combo deck is faster than aggro decks with redundant pieces"

[JDK]

So, you're claiming Skullclamp is a safe unban?

Don't even try to use logic or common sense. ;)

@Turn 4
Wizards doesn't want "top-tier" decks to consistently go off turn 3 or earlier (first paragraph, http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/161b ). At least that's what they said after Pro Tour Philadelphia, back then...soooo how does Twin even come close to that?

[TraxDaMax]

It's still possible though. And they totally ignore it.
Thing is, a burn/affinity deck can consistently fling 20 damage at your face by turn 4 while combo is so fragile and often skillintensive that it's way less consistent. Sometimes it feels like they are trying to dumb down the game.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9195 met Tapatalk

[JPoJohnson]

Let me start off by saying that I think that Affinity and Burn decks are just fine to run and are not anywhere near needing a ban.

I think that:
1) The T4 rule is a bad rule that limits the types of cards that can be printed
2) There are several cards that could safely come off the ban list that would allow for a larger variety of decks in the format without making broken decks out there. I think Preordain should be safe to come off. I don't know why it was banned in the first place.

[TraxDaMax]

Yes, I agree burn and affinity are fine, I just don't support a turn 4 policy when there are so many interactive cards printed that are usuable on turns 1-3.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9195 met Tapatalk

[JDK]

I think Preordain should be safe to come off. I don't know why it was banned in the first place.
Reason is in the same link I just posted.

Again, everything which kills Turn 4 is fine, according to Wizard.

[DragoFireheart]

So, you're claiming Skullclamp is a safe unban?

Sure. :troll:

[JPoJohnson]

Reason is in the same link I just posted.

Again, everything which kills Turn 4 is fine, according to Wizard.

Yes and since then Seething Song was banned. I think its fine for it to come off now. The meta and format have evolved as well as new cards have been released such as Counterflux.

[Lord Seth]

Yes and since then Seething Song was banned. I think its fine for it to come off now. The meta and format have evolved as well as new cards have been released such as Counterflux.
Counterflux was in the format at the time of the Seething Song ban.

[JDK]

What? Counterflux is reason enough to make Twin even stronger? Huh?

[FTW]

If this is a turn 4 format, why don't they Griselbanned already?

[JPoJohnson]

Counterflux was in the format at the time of the Seething Song ban.

Correct, however it wasn't in the format with Preordain

[JDK]

If this is a turn 4 format, why don't they Griselbanned already?
Read. I've already posted about this.


Correct, however it wasn't in the format with Preordain
I still don't get your argument for unbanning Preordain. Unban Preordain because of Counterflux? What has this mediocre card to do with Preordain? Especially since it's in the color Twin already plays. :confused:

[TraxDaMax]

If this is a turn 4 format, why don't they Griselbanned already?

Or infect for that matter

Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9195 met Tapatalk

[Lord Seth]

If this is a turn 4 format, why don't they Griselbanned already?
Because the turn 4 rule applies only to the top tier decks. Griselcannon or whatever you call it is certainly not that. The best it's ever done in a Grand Prix was a single Top 16 finish.

[JDK]

Some of you clearly lack reading comprehension...

[Mr. Safety]

I think allowing more powerful cards into the format could actually HELP control and tempo deck's be more viable. I love spell pierce, but it gets much worse in a format where you aren't planning to win before turn four. If combo deck's push the turn four fundamental turn then faster answers are needed. As of right now the best anti-combo card is Thoughtseize. It would be nice to unlock other fast answers.

[Arsenal]

Uwr Control and Tron are good decks and both control. Tempo Twin took down GP Antwerp. The meta is fine with all archetypes/styles repped nicely.

[JPoJohnson]

Read. I've already posted about this.


I still don't get your argument for unbanning Preordain. Unban Preordain because of Counterflux? What has this mediocre card to do with Preordain? Especially since it's in the color Twin already plays. :confused:

My logic is there is a card that can handle the combo aspect of the decks that would run Preordain. That's all I'm getting at. Not that those two cards specifically interact.

[JDK]

There are certain cards which are good against Twin, but Counterflux is not one which would be an argument for giving an already Tier 1 deck the best cantrip in the format (Ponder would still be banned). Twin has redundancy in every aspect and if you give them toys to dig for those pieces faster than you can find answers, you are doing it wrong.

[Timber]

There are certain cards which are good against Twin, but Counterflux is not one which would be an argument for giving an already Tier 1 deck the best cantrip in the format (Ponder would still be banned). Twin has redundancy in every aspect and if you give them toys to dig for those pieces faster than you can find answers, you are doing it wrong.

Exactly.

[Mr. Safety]

There are certain cards which are good against Twin, but Counterflux is not one which would be an argument for giving an already Tier 1 deck the best cantrip in the format (Ponder would still be banned). Twin has redundancy in every aspect and if you give them toys to dig for those pieces faster than you can find answers, you are doing it wrong.

I agree.

Wasn't the Ponder/Preordain ban predicated mostly on the dominance/redundancy of Twin decks? It helped that deck much more than storm (mostly because Twin played maindeck counterspells, essentially the anti-storm combo deck of choice.) When you can play a full 8 copies of both halves of your 2-card combo, and then play efficient cheap dig spells to all but ENSURE a turn 4-5 combo (all the while digging for answers/protection while you wait), isn't that a little too strong for modern (generally speaking?)

Yes, I know, too many parentheses in that above paragraph (but who's really counting?)

[YamiJoey]

It's only 3 pairs. (Me.)

No changes to the format it's absolutely fine.

GP Prague: UWR Mid, Splinter Twin, UR Tempo, Rock, Tron, Rock, Rock, Rock
Milan 5/1: Rock, Pod, Rock, Living End, Rock, Rock, Affinity, Affinity
Spain 12/28: Affinity, Rock, Rock, Rock, UWR Mid, Affinity, Pod, Rock

The only real dominator of the format is Deathrite Shaman.dek. If it got a ban I'd understand, and I kind of want it to so that I can play Bob without Goyf at some point in the near future, but I don't expect it anymore. There was a time not too far gone where it was the only deck I considered playable. We got over that and now I really like the format.

[JDK]

I guess everyone wins: http://wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/285

[Phoenix Ignition]

Modern
Deathrite Shaman is banned. Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl are unbanned.

Wow. I did not see such a large change coming. I'm somewhat happy with the DRS ban, I think he was too useful to not throw in literally any green and/or black deck. Bitterblossom may prove to be a problem, but I think having a good other control style deck in the format (that BB facilitates) isn't all bad. Wild Nacatl isn't going to blow our minds or anything, but he will make that green/red (splash white) zoo deck come out in greater numbers. Interested to see what the format looks like in a couple months.

[apple713]

sold my bitter blossoms late last year... kicking my self soo hard. faE is a deck i could actually play in modern and be happy.

is faeries any better than merfolk tho?

[Aggro_zombies]

Without Ancestral Visions? It's debatable.

Personally, I feel like Jund and/or BW Tokens benefits more from the BB unban than Faeries does.

[apple713]

Without Ancestral Visions? It's debatable.

Personally, I feel like Jund and/or BW Tokens benefits more from the BB unban than Faeries does.

with jund losing DRS and blood braid is it still a contender?

[DragoFireheart]

LOL at the changes.

I will never waste my time investing in any "good" deck. Not even mid-range is safe.

[Lord Seth]

Personally, I feel like Jund and/or BW Tokens benefits more from the BB unban than Faeries does.
I don't really think Jund benefits much from the Bitterblossom unban. The card is slow, makes them bleed life even more, and is very bad in the later game.

The decks that benefit the most from it are BW Tokens (because they can only play 4 Lingering Souls) and Faeries (because of its synergy).

Though I actually do wonder how much it'll ultimately benefit Faeries. It's strong, but is it strong enough to pull it up to Tier 1? That I'm not sure about.

[Aggro_zombies]

I don't really think Jund benefits much from the Bitterblossom unban. The card is slow, makes them bleed life even more, and is very bad in the later game.

The decks that benefit the most from it are BW Tokens (because they can only play 4 Lingering Souls) and Faeries (because of its synergy).

Though I actually do wonder how much it'll ultimately benefit Faeries. It's strong, but is it strong enough to pull it up to Tier 1? That I'm not sure about.
Faeries really needs some way to gas up in the midgame. There aren't any good options for that right now - both JTMS and AV are on the Banned List and the former, at least, is likely to stay there. Without those, you have: bad one-mana cantrips plus Snapcaster (ew), Remand (good but only cycles), and, what? Night's Whisper? Thirst for Knowledge?

[Lord Seth]

Faeries really needs some way to gas up in the midgame. There aren't any good options for that right now - both JTMS and AV are on the Banned List and the former, at least, is likely to stay there. Without those, you have: bad one-mana cantrips plus Snapcaster (ew), Remand (good but only cycles), and, what? Night's Whisper? Thirst for Knowledge?
Does it really need ways to gas up in the midgame? Faeries is a tempo deck; it doesn't really want to go far into the midgame. It wants to beat you over the head with its army while countering anything problematic.

[Arsenal]

If no more turn 2 Lili and less overall Thoughtseize happens, with a minor-moderate uptick in Zoo style lists, UWR Control is looking really good.

[Fizzeler]

Well you can play Jace AoT as anther CA engine that has the plus of being good vs aggressive decks.

Or you know think twice

[fogxanic]

Why not play Oona's Blackguard and Spellstutter Sprite in faeries? Scion of Oona for protecting bitterblossom and creatures like Mistbind Clique and Vendilion Clique maybe Vial is needed then.

[Looooooooo]

Would a F**ing Ponder be forever too much for this ridiculous format?

- L

[JDK]

Faeries really needs some way to gas up in the midgame. There aren't any good options for that right now - both JTMS and AV are on the Banned List and the former, at least, is likely to stay there. Without those, you have: bad one-mana cantrips plus Snapcaster (ew), Remand (good but only cycles), and, what? Night's Whisper? Thirst for Knowledge?

Mistbind Clique would like to have a word with you.

@fogxanic
There is no Faerie.dec without Spellstutter Sprite.

[Arsenal]

Is Fae better than Merfolk though? Both decks are similar in the sense there is a strong tribal synergy, both blue based, and both are tempo oriented.

[Timber]

Would a F**ing Ponder be forever too much for this ridiculous format?

- L

You know that Twin can win on turn 4 in a format where Wizards wants no quicker than turn 4 kills, right? So yes, for the 1,000,000th time, Ponder would be too much.

[Arsenal]

If people want to play with Ponder, JtMS, SFM, BBE, etc so badly, there's a format where you can do that... it's called Legacy. I'll never understand why Legacy players complain that Modern doesn't have Card X, when you can just play with Card X in Legacy. Modern is a completely different format trying to accomplish completely different things than Legacy/Vintage is. Why can't people understand and accept that? Why does every Legacy player want Modern to be Legacy-lite when Wizards clearly has stated and shown that they want Modern to be Super-Standard.

[JDK]

Is Fae better than Merfolk though? Both decks are similar in the sense there is a strong tribal synergy, both blue based, and both are tempo oriented.

These decks are completely different. Merfolk builds tend to be aggressive, while Faeries are also more permission-based and much more flexible. I wouldn't say Merfolk is tempo oriented. This may be true for Legacy, but in Modern they are just an Aggro.dec with a little amount of spells to help getting the beats in.

[Arsenal]

These decks are completely different. Merfolk builds tend to be aggressive, while Faeries are also more permission-based and much more flexible. I wouldn't say Merfolk is tempo oriented. This may be true for Legacy, but in Modern they are just an Aggro.dec with a little amount of spells to help getting the beats in.

While Fae is able to switch from being the aggro deck in a given matchup to being the control deck, I'd be interested in seeing if it can be aggro enough to legitimately pressure UWR Control and have enough control elements to out-control UWR Control.

[MaximumC]

If people want to play with Ponder, JtMS, SFM, BBE, etc so badly, there's a format where you can do that... it's called Legacy. I'll never understand why Legacy players complain that Modern doesn't have Card X, when you can just play with Card X in Legacy. Modern is a completely different format trying to accomplish completely different things than Legacy/Vintage is. Why can't people understand and accept that? Why does every Legacy player want Modern to be Legacy-lite when Wizards clearly has stated and shown that they want Modern to be Super-Standard.

I would have no problem with Modern if there was support for Legacy. The problem is that Modern is Wizards' answer to the Reserve List. It's a good solution. Over time, with new sets coming out regularly, Modern will grow to be close to as interesting as Legacy. It cannot be helped. You print 10,000 cards, there is gonna be broken synergies between some of them. Legacy and Vintage become niche because of card availability, but Modern rises and we can keep playing Magic. It's all good.

But instead of letting this happen, Wizards is dedicated to making Modern a "Super-Standard" format, as you said. Modern is institutionally designed to be less interesting than Legacy. We get a game of whack-a-mole with each banned and restricted list update.

I am happy they are active in taking cards OFF the list, too, so maybe there is hope.

[MrShine]

If people want to play with Ponder, JtMS, SFM, BBE, etc so badly, there's a format where you can do that... it's called Legacy. I'll never understand why Legacy players complain that Modern doesn't have Card X, when you can just play with Card X in Legacy. Modern is a completely different format trying to accomplish completely different things than Legacy/Vintage is. Why can't people understand and accept that? Why does every Legacy player want Modern to be Legacy-lite when Wizards clearly has stated and shown that they want Modern to be Super-Standard.

This. Modern is its own beast, and what I consider to be a bonus format for already owning many of the staples for Legacy. No more DRS? Whatever, play Legacy, BUG or Rock or Jund.

All the changes are good, and will shake up the dominance of BGx.

TBH I like that the format isn't closer to Legacy; it plays like its own game and gets cards into the spotlight that would never make it in legacy. Restoration Angel, Lingering Souls, Birthing Pod, and now Bitterblossom, are all fringe playable in Legacy but now they get their time to shine.


@MaximumC - Their willingness to take cards off the list will help keep the format fresh and moving in a way that Legacy doesn't have. Sure, its similar to the old extended, which I thought was pretty cool, outside of the manabases rotating. While the card pool will be ever expanding, like you said, like Legacy most of the cards released will have little to no impact on modern due to the same reason - low impact when compared to the best that the format (be it Legacy or Modern) has to offer. So while Modern WILL grow substatially, there is a low chance of it ever growing too much like Legacy because it seems that the era of printing strong enough cards is waning. They are never going to print another Daze or Wasteland, and that in and of itself will keep the formats different enough when it comes down to it. Which means that as long as there is a player base, both formats will be able to thrive.

[Arsenal]

I would have no problem with Modern if there was support for Legacy. The problem is that Modern is Wizards' answer to the Reserve List. It's a good solution. Over time, with new sets coming out regularly, Modern will grow to be close to as interesting as Legacy. It cannot be helped. You print 10,000 cards, there is gonna be broken synergies between some of them. Legacy and Vintage become niche because of card availability, but Modern rises and we can keep playing Magic. It's all good.

But instead of letting this happen, Wizards is dedicated to making Modern a "Super-Standard" format, as you said. Modern is institutionally designed to be less interesting than Legacy. We get a game of whack-a-mole with each banned and restricted list update.

I am happy they are active in taking cards OFF the list, too, so maybe there is hope.

So because Wizards doesn't support Legacy, but does support Modern, that's why you have a problem with Modern? That doesn't even make sense. Wizards' support of Modern (prize structure, number of tourneys per 12 months, etc) is comparable to the grassroots support Legacy has enjoyed for years (SCG Opens, BoM-style tourneys, etc), so you're not really missing out on anything if you're willing to travel for SCG Legacy Opens and other large Legacy tourneys.

Modern as Super Standard makes so much more business-financial sense than molding it into Legacy-Lite. Wizards can still make money off Modern players wanting to crack packs of in-circulation boosters for Sphinx's Revelation (played in UWR Control), or for Shocklands, or for a plethora of other Modern staples/playables. If Wizards made it's Banned list unbanned as sooo many Legacy players suggest it do, then how does Wizards make money off people buying $35 Stoneforge Mystics from secondary sellers/vendors?

And Modern isn't less interesting than Legacy, it's just different. There are interactions, boardstates and cards that are common in Modern that you cannot find in Legacy and vice-versa. Force of Will on your opponent's Charbelcher isn't more "interesting" than Path to Exile in response to Splinter Twin on Pestermite, it's just different.

Now yes, Legacy's cardpool is vast compared to Modern, so you will find more variety of decks, so if you equate "interest" to "variety", then you are correct. But I find Sealed Limited to be interesting in it's own unique way, even though variety is super duper low. Same with Modern, it offers me experiences that I cannot find in Legacy and vice-versa. Why people want Modern to be Legacy-lite, when the cardpool clearly cannot support it, just doesn't make sense.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I think of Modern as being a constant good standard format. It'll never be as complex or wide open as legacy, but it's certainly better than vast majority or standard seasons.

[twndomn]

On the topic of Legacy vs Modern, here's the bottom line:
Legacy is a format built on top of Force of Will.
Modern is a format built by the dynamic ever changing Ban list, since it doesn't have FoW.

There really is no denying in that. Look at how often Legacy ban/unban cards. This infrequent change in the ban list of Legacy definitely has something to do with FoW. Now, look at Modern. What is Wizard's solution for lack of Force of Will? Ban whatever's popular. If Bitterblossom's popular, axe it. Once something else becomes trendy, unban it.

I'm not favoring one approach over another. That's for everyone to decide. If you favor stability of the list and a usually diverse Top 8 in most major tournaments at any point in time, obviously Legacy is your cup of tea. If you favor an active ban list being babysit by Wizard and card prices are constantly in flux, you should go for Modern.

[DragoFireheart]

chaos;788902']I think of Modern as being a constant good standard format. It'll never be as complex or wide open as legacy, but it's certainly better than vast majority or standard seasons.

I can agree with this. Standard is a waste of time.

[Arsenal]

If you favor stability of the list and a usually diverse Top 8 in most major tournaments at any point in time, obviously Legacy is your cup of tea. If you favor an active ban list being babysit by Wizard and card prices are constantly in flux, you should go for Modern.

"An active ban list babysit by Wizards"... isn't this what Legacy players have been screaming for? That Wizards take an active interest in the format and start unbanning/banning stuff? You believe that Wizards not touching the Banned list is due to FoW while I believe it's because they're apathetic to Legacy and don't really care enough to bother looking into the format.

And if Wizards did start taking an active interest in Legacy and banning/unbanning cards, you'd see an appropriate shift in card prices on Legacy staples too. Your analysis of Modern is way, way off.

[Phoenix Ignition]

"An active ban list babysit by Wizards"... isn't this what Legacy players have been screaming for? That Wizards take an active interest in the format and start unbanning/banning stuff? You believe that Wizards not touching the Banned list is due to FoW while I believe it's because they're apathetic to Legacy and don't really care enough to bother looking into the format.

This is exactly why we're seeing so many new faces in this and similar Modern threads across the site. Exclusive Legacy players have been wishing for things to be unbanned for months. It happens for Modern and they are upset, so we see people posting garbage about why Modern sucks because the formats best decks keep changing due to the dynamic banlist. We get those "LOL I"M NEVER BUYING A DECK BECAUSE IT'LL JUST BE BAD IN A MONTH" even though that's what any unbanning/banning can do to a format, and unbanning is what the majority of people want.

[twndomn]

"An active ban list babysit by Wizards"... isn't this what Legacy players have been screaming for? That Wizards take an active interest in the format and start unbanning/banning stuff? You believe that Wizards not touching the Banned list is due to FoW while I believe it's because they're apathetic to Legacy and don't really care enough to bother looking into the format.

And if Wizards did start taking an active interest in Legacy and banning/unbanning cards, you'd see an appropriate shift in card prices on Legacy staples too. Your analysis of Modern is way, way off.

Who are you to say that Wizard's apathetic to Legacy? Do you work for WotC, or what makes you qualified to make that ridiculous statement? Just for your way, way off analysis of Legacy, Wizard did ban Mental Misstep in 2011 and unban Land Tax in 2012. Not changing anything in 2013 is definitely not because of your conspiracy. I don't see you have anything valid.


This is exactly why we're seeing so many new faces in this and similar Modern threads across the site. Exclusive Legacy players have been wishing for things to be unbanned for months. It happens for Modern and they are upset, so we see people posting garbage about why Modern sucks because the formats best decks keep changing due to the dynamic banlist. We get those "LOL I"M NEVER BUYING A DECK BECAUSE IT'LL JUST BE BAD IN A MONTH" even though that's what any unbanning/banning can do to a format, and unbanning is what the majority of people want.

You have no evidence to support your claim of more new faces in Modern. If there is an influx of Modern players, why isn't that attributed to card availability and pricing? You cannot determine correlation or causality blindly, that's a dangerous jump to conclusion.

I certainly don't see Legacy players together agreeing and wishing for a particular card to be unbanned. I do see players across all formats wanting something to be banned every time, it's people's nature to whine about certain cards.

[Arsenal]

Who are you to say that Wizard's apathetic to Legacy? Do you work for WotC, or what makes you qualified to make that ridiculous statement? Just for your way, way off analysis of Legacy, Wizard did ban Mental Misstep in 2011 and unban Land Tax in 2012. Not changing anything in 2013 is definitely not because of your conspiracy. I don't see you have anything valid.

Unbanning Land Tax, an irrelevant relic from yesteryear, in 2012 means Wizards cares about Legacy? Tightening the Reserve List policy means Wizards cares about Legacy? Them printing Delver of Secrets and TNN means Wizards cares about Legacy? Them dropping all official tourney support for Legacy means Wizards cares about Legacy? Are you being serious right now?

[twndomn]

Unbanning Land Tax, an irrelevant relic from yesteryear, in 2012 means Wizards cares about Legacy? Tightening the Reserve List policy means Wizards cares about Legacy? Them printing Delver of Secrets and TNN means Wizards cares about Legacy? Them dropping all official tourney support for Legacy means Wizards cares about Legacy? Are you being serious right now?

Yeah, you should be more serious and think it through before you present your argument. Rather than asking me what would define Wizards caring about Legacy, why don't you PRESENT real fact, instead of your wild conspiracy about how Wizards Not caring about Legacy. In your eyes, printing Delver and TNN means Wizard doesn't care about Legacy, that's your subjective judgement, goes to show how little understanding of the format you have. Once again, GP Paris on February 14-16, 2014, which format is it? You're wrong again on the "Them dropping all official tourney support" opinion.

Seriously, do some homework before you post would do you some good.

[Arsenal]

Yeah, you should be more serious and think it through before you present your argument. Rather than asking me what would define Wizards caring about Legacy, why don't you PRESENT real fact, instead of your wild conspiracy about how Wizards Not caring about Legacy. In your eyes, printing Delver and TNN means Wizard doesn't care about Legacy, that's your subjective judgement, goes to show how little understanding of the format you have. Once again, GP Paris on February 14-16, 2014, which format is it? You're wrong again on the "Them dropping all official tourney support" opinion.

Seriously, do some homework before you post would do you some good.

Didn't know 2 out of 46 tourneys counts as support. Cool. I understand the format just fine, you just don't agree with my opinions.

[JDK]

Enough with all (I know "all" is unfair) your half-baked rambling about which format is superior. Bottom line is, and I think we can all agree on this (at least if you actually use your brain), that each format has different appeals.
There is no need for arrogant and fanatic trolling as well as exaggeration. If you don't like Modern, don't try to provoke people who do - and vice versa. Just play whichever format you like.

Geez, everytime the same shit...

[Timber]

You have no evidence to support your claim of more new faces in Modern. If there is an influx of Modern players, why isn't that attributed to card availability and pricing? You cannot determine correlation or causality blindly, that's a dangerous jump to conclusion.

Right after you said this:


"On the topic of Legacy vs Modern, here's the bottom line:
Legacy is a format built on top of Force of Will.
Modern is a format built by the dynamic ever changing Ban list, since it doesn't have FoW.".


If Modern is a "format built by the dynamic ever changing Ban list", then Jund should have been dropped after the Bloodbraid Elf ban. The GP Detroit top 8 is evidence that it didn't. Noble Hierarch is sold out everywhere, which is evidence that the DRS ban will not prevent people from playing Pod and Jund.

The number of control decks running Snapcaster Mage, Sphinx's Revelation, and Restoration Angel is evidence that newly-printed cards have a pretty significant effect on the format too.

I would agree that the Ban list is part of what shapes the Modern format. I think that saying that the format is built on the Ban list is "a dangerous jump to conclusion".

[Timber]

So...back on the thread topic:

Obviously Deathrite Shaman is only one piece of graveyard hate, but being that it's a pretty big one, is anyone considering more 'yard-based strategies?

Dredgevine?
Solar Flare?
Loam engine?
Griselbanned?
Living End?

[Arsenal]

As I stated, Snapcaster automatically gets better. Living End obviously gets better too. Beyond that, Idk. I mean, Gifts decks actually used 4 DRS themselves to ramp on color, so I don't know what'll happen there (not like they were top tier, but randomly powerful enough to be aware of). And wasn't Grizzeldaddy more about it's own inconsistency than about opposing DRS?

[Phoenix Ignition]

You have no evidence to support your claim of more new faces in Modern. If there is an influx of Modern players, why isn't that attributed to card availability and pricing? You cannot determine correlation or causality blindly, that's a dangerous jump to conclusion.

I think it's funny how much you want to start arguments. Check what I said... wait, I'll just requote it because I doubt you would:

This is exactly why we're seeing so many new faces in this and similar Modern threads across the site.
I never did nor will I claim that more people are playing Modern. I'm claiming that right now, the number of people posting in the Modern section of this site is much greater due to the ban/unban. We get trash comments like "LOL Modern keeps changing, I'm never touching that format!" Also check out the "All B/R update speculation" thread if you want to see legacy players flaming the modern format.

But yeah, it's easier to try to turn what someone said into something else entirely and then demand proof of it.


I certainly don't see Legacy players together agreeing and wishing for a particular card to be unbanned. I do see players across all formats wanting something to be banned every time, it's people's nature to whine about certain cards.
Survival of the Fittest now, Land Tax 6 months ago, there's always something everyone wishes was taken off.

So...back on the thread topic:

Obviously Deathrite Shaman is only one piece of graveyard hate, but being that it's a pretty big one, is anyone considering more 'yard-based strategies?

Dredgevine?
Solar Flare?
Loam engine?
Griselbanned?
Living End?
I think we'll see UR storm coming back. It was a good deck until DRS PLUS Scooze were being played, that's when there was a critical density of graveyard hate to make the deck much less consistent. Now that DRS is gone I predict we'll see this deck (among a few others) see a huge boost in popularity. I'm a bit scared of this one, but I do tend to play white decks with RiP for that general reason anyway.

[JPoJohnson]

As I stated, Snapcaster automatically gets better. Living End obviously gets better too. Beyond that, Idk. I mean, Gifts decks actually used 4 DRS themselves to ramp on color, so I don't know what'll happen there (not like they were top tier, but randomly powerful enough to be aware of). And wasn't Grizzeldaddy more about it's own inconsistency than about opposing DRS?

Not with the Necrotic Ooze version...

Either way though. I think that this means harder Gravehate will make its way to the sideboards and we'll see how that affects everything.

[JDK]

I think we'll see UR storm coming back. It was a good deck until DRS PLUS Scooze were being played, that's when there was a critical density of graveyard hate to make the deck much less consistent. Now that DRS is gone I predict we'll see this deck (among a few others) see a huge boost in popularity. I'm a bit scared of this one, but I do tend to play white decks with RiP for that general reason anyway.

I've continued to play UR Storm on MODO after the ban and DRS wasn't a problem most of the time (not saying it wasn't a problem in general). Now that DRS is gone, the pre-board MUs are slightly better, but people will probably pack more Relics or similar stuff and you have to keep in mind that Aggro-Control will have a new contender in Faeries, which is not a cakewalk for Storm and most likely a really bad MU for Living End and Reanimator.

[Mr. Safety]

So...back on the thread topic:

Obviously Deathrite Shaman is only one piece of graveyard hate, but being that it's a pretty big one, is anyone considering more 'yard-based strategies?

Dredgevine?
Solar Flare?
Loam engine?
Griselbanned?
Living End?

I'll be jamming Loam for sure. I already had a list that pulled on Bolts to stop DRS, but now the pressure is definately less. Only having to worry about Scooze (and boarded in hate) means it's a much better environment for it. Before it was fighting 4x DRS, 2-4x Scooze, AND boarded in hate. Now it's just 2-4x Ooze (can work around that) and boarded in hate (savvy sideboarding neccessary, but I can work around that too.)

Seismic Assault FTW.

[twndomn]

Survival of the Fittest now, Land Tax 6 months ago, there's always something everyone wishes was taken off.


Since when did some users on the source become "everyone wishes" like you described? That's very sneaky of you. Are you claiming few users on the source is representative of Legacy community in the entire world? Some people don't even read English sites. Even if there was a group of people, there would also be another group of people in favor of keeping Survival banned. Therefore, it's NOT universal, definitely not everyone, which is what I wrote already.



Didn't know 2 out of 46 tourneys counts as support. Cool. I understand the format just fine, you just don't agree with my opinions.

See? You're the one stating incorrect fact, now you dodge your incorrect understanding by changing the definition of support. Who typed "Them dropping all official tourney support for Legacy means" and now afraid of admitting it? Are you also gonna argue the definition of ALL?

[Arsenal]

Stop thread stalking me. So Wizards supports Legacy with 2 tourneys out of 46. Wow, I was wrong when I said "all". You win.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I've continued to play UR Storm on MODO after the ban and DRS wasn't a problem most of the time (not saying it wasn't a problem in general). Now that DRS is gone, the pre-board MUs are slightly better, but people will probably pack more Relics or similar stuff and you have to keep in mind that Aggro-Control will have a new contender in Faeries, which is not a cakewalk for Storm and most likely a really bad MU for Living End and Reanimator.

Sure, but it's not like Jund or BGx decks had any way to completely shut down UR storm, it was just a congregation of little annoyances that led up to UR storm not being able to go off. Now that DRS isn't in literally every black and or green deck I think it's in a great position to be a legitimate deck. People have consistently under prepared for graveyard decks in the past and UR storm doesn't even really need it, it's just a great backup plan to win (which consequently makes many sideboard cards people commonly play against "combo" irrelevant, like Inquisition of Kozilek).


Since when did some users on the source become "everyone wishes" like you described? That's very sneaky of you. Are you claiming few users on the source is representative of Legacy community in the entire world? Some people don't even read English sites. Even if there was a group of people, there would also be another group of people in favor of keeping Survival banned. Therefore, it's NOT universal, definitely not everyone, which is what I wrote already.

Oh my goodness. You're really stretching to troll aren't you? Here, go nuts on this next one: Everyone wishes you'd stop posting crap like this because absolutely no one in the whole world cares about you getting caught up on tiny phrases out of large paragraphs of words.

[Arsenal]

I agree about banned DRS will likely cause graveyard based decks to see an uptick, even if a temporary one. I anticipate more graveyard based decks to try to make more of a showing and other strategies (KotR can come back?) to appear. I'm prolly going to up my sideboard Rest in Peace count from 2 to 3.

Although anti-synergistic with Snapcaster, the decks I'd bring in Rest in Peace just get blown out by it (Goryo's Vengenace-Grizzledaddy, Living End, Pyromancer Acsension, etc) whereas Snapcaster, Snapcaster --> value is good, but doesn't end the game like Rest in Peace does versus those decks.

[Megadeus]

I agree about banned DRS will likely cause graveyard based decks to see an uptick, even if a temporary one. I anticipate more graveyard based decks to try to make more of a showing and other strategies (KotR can come back?) to appear. I'm prolly going to up my sideboard Rest in Peace count from 2 to 3.

Although anti-synergistic with Snapcaster, the decks I'd bring in Rest in Peace just get blown out by it (Goryo's Vengenace-Grizzledaddy, Living End, Pyromancer Acsension, etc) whereas Snapcaster, Snapcaster --> value is good, but doesn't end the game like Rest in Peace does versus those decks.

Plus snapcaster is still Ambush Viper fwiw.

[FieryBalrog]

Would a F**ing Ponder be forever too much for this ridiculous format?
- L

When are people going to learn how "F**ing" powerful cards like Ponder are? The overwhelming blue-shell dominance in Legacy certainly hasn't taught them anything.

[Mr. Safety]

I agree about banned DRS will likely cause graveyard based decks to see an uptick, even if a temporary one. I anticipate more graveyard based decks to try to make more of a showing and other strategies (KotR can come back?) to appear. I'm prolly going to up my sideboard Rest in Peace count from 2 to 3.

Although anti-synergistic with Snapcaster, the decks I'd bring in Rest in Peace just get blown out by it (Goryo's Vengenace-Grizzledaddy, Living End, Pyromancer Acsension, etc) whereas Snapcaster, Snapcaster --> value is good, but doesn't end the game like Rest in Peace does versus those decks.

I play a bit of snapcaster myself and I'm trying out relic of progenitus again. Turn one lets you slow roll it and pop it off when you need to. Rip is a better hoser, but I still want to try this alternative.

[DragoFireheart]

When are people going to learn how "F**ing" powerful cards like Ponder are? The overwhelming blue-shell dominance in Legacy certainly hasn't taught them anything.

Shell blue Domin what? I thought blue decks were the default magic deck and all other decks are homebrews.

[Mr. Froggy]

Shell blue Domin what? I thought blue decks were the default magic deck and all other decks are homebrews.

This made me lol. Kinda nuts how that's almost true.

[Erdvermampfa]

Since I was contemplating about stepping into modern as well (Legacy is on its end days), I was wondering if there weren't any complaints or resentiments about Birthing Pod or the Trondecks? The last time I tested Modern I was seriously appalled by the prevalence of those two decks, largely because I felt you could barely interact with them due to the lack of proper LD and Birthing Pod felt kind of OP as well? However, the large majority seems to be content with those in the format. Don't you feel a bit dissatisfied with those decks at times?

[nodahero]

Tron is a joke in the large scheme of things.

Pod is arguably the best deck in the format.

Suck it up buttercup and deal.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Tron is just frustrating when they drop all 3 lands in order than drop a turn 3 karn that wins the game by itself. Other than it's a very beatable deck from a lot of different angles.

Pod is very good, but fairly easily disrupted off the combo plan. Then you just have to beat them as a midrange deck with a lot of vaule.

[JDK]

Tron is a joke in the large scheme of things.
Pre-DRS Ban it was a good deck, but it lost a good MU with the fall of Jund and the rising popularity of Twin and Scapeshift doesn't help either.

Pod is kept in check by Anger of the Gods and Combo/Control in general.

So no, they don't feel "OP".

[JPoJohnson]

chaos;795562']Tron is just frustrating when they drop all 3 lands in order than drop a turn 3 karn that wins the game by itself. Other than it's a very beatable deck from a lot of different angles.

Pod is very good, but fairly easily disrupted off the combo plan. Then you just have to beat them as a midrange deck with a lot of vaule.

I completely agree with this regarding pod. It's what makes Melira pod the stronger deck over Kiki pod. Sure Kiki is the superior combo deck, but it's disrupted easily enough that the value of the midrange that exists within Melira makes it capable of grinding out so many games. Especially with Gavony Township.

[DragoFireheart]

So is Jund/BGx mid-range decks still any good with the loss of DRS?

I have almost all of the cards for it from trying to make Legacy Shardless.

[Arsenal]

I think Chapin stated that it was the 5th/6th highest represented archetype at GP Richmond behind the heavy hitters; Twin, Affinity, Pod, etc. That's not bad and seems to be tier 1.5 competitive even with the ultra neuters.

[Shawon]

Anyone feel that Snapcaster Mage is too OP in Modern? I think it's way too flexible in any deck splashing blue to the point where it's just prevalent. I feel that whether you're playing against a combo or midrange deck, playing the value game without Snapcaster Mage is an uphill climb against a deck that does run Snaps. Not to mention, it can just rebuy any instant or sorcery you caused your opponent to discard, including one-card combos like Scapeshift.

It could just be me whining, but I'd like to know what some Legacy people feel about Snapcaster Mage in Modern.

[Megadeus]

Card seems very powerful now that DRS is out of the format. I can't see very many creature decks (Zoo) being able to beat a hand where you have a Bolt and a Snapcaster. Or a path or something.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Actually kind of shocked that Snapcaster was the card picked as too OP. No, I don't think he's too OP in modern. Pod and GBx decks don't need him or really even care about him too much. Most decks that do use him use less than 4 (not that that's necessarily proof he isn't OP). He's good as a blocker and pretty decent at card advantage, but you need a lot of things going right for him to work out. Most midrange green decks play Scavenging Ooze in some number, which makes him pretty useless. Remand is awesome against him, too.

He's extremely frustrating with Cryptic Command and 6 mana, but even then there are so many ways to deal with it that I'm not under the impression of him being too good.

[Lord Seth]

Lightning Bolt is stronger than Snapcaster Mage.

Heck, part of the reason Snapcaster Mage even is good is its synergy with Lightning Bolt. Snapcaster Mage without Lightning Bolt is much weaker, but Lightning Bolt is still really powerful without Snapcaster Mage.

[Timber]

Lightning Bolt is stronger than Snapcaster Mage.

Heck, part of the reason Snapcaster Mage even is good is its synergy with Lightning Bolt. Snapcaster Mage without Lightning Bolt is much weaker, but Lightning Bolt is still really powerful without Snapcaster Mage.

I second this. Without Lightning Bolt, UW control decks have much less to gain from adding red.

[Megadeus]

I'm not saying that snap caster is too powerful, just pointing out that bolt plus a snappy is (obviously) really difficult for a deck trying to win with small dudes to overcome

[Arsenal]

Birthing Pod didn't get the axe. This leads me to believe that they likely will not ban it until they print a creature that completely puts it over the top (akin to Survival being okay until Vengevine). As a Pod player, I'm obviously happy, but I truly don't think it's ban-worthy right now. After a string of top finishes at the larger tourneys (GP/PT), the recent GP/PT have been won by non-Pod decks. Also, they're printing more Pod hate (M15's Gryff) and other strategies are seeing new toys to tinker with.

[Phoenix Ignition]

It makes me a little sad that Birthing Pod didn't get any of its strategies hurt. Being able to throw in silver bullet answers is one of the reasons green sun's zenith got banned, it made it the overwhelmingly powerful strategy so that other midrange decks didn't have a reason not to also go that strategy. Also, having 2 card combos that do infinite damage allows the deck a quick avenue to beat stuff that can stop its midrange plan without diluting your deck too much makes it impossible to stop with just one strategy.

Honestly the best thing you can do to beat it is not care about it and just combo out yourself (splinter twin) or try to kill them in the first 2-3 turns before they can get their advantage going (affinity), but this has left modern in a pretty crappy place right now. Affinity is like the dragon stompy of legacy, where variance will bury you or allow you one to two big tournament wins.

I think the problem is pod isn't played enough for people to see why it's the reason for modern being a "slow combo" format. Even though it is the most played deck in the format (http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmin14/day2), it doesn't necessarily comprise the majority of the top 8's (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmin14/welcome) (2/8 in that case, but 7 of the top 16 lists). The problem is that the card advantage it buries you under (if you don't just ignore it and combo yourself, like Scapeshift + Twin) makes it impossible for regular midrange style decks to handle in time to kill you. Only a single BGx list made top 8, 2 in the top 16.

To stop Pod without a combo, you have to go the UWR control strategy with upwards of 15 removal and additional countermagic.

I do think the deck is oppressive and banworthy. The worst thing is their ability to cast a turn 2 Birthing pod relatively easily, which makes it near uncounterable and being an artifact is almost impossible to kill. If they print an Abrupt Decay that hits 4 cmc cards or some better removal for artifacts that doesn't just suck without being in your deck, maybe pod would be more handle-able, but as it stands it's just too good.

Anyway, rant aside, the best card to fight that deck right now is Aven Mindcensor and hoping that they don't draw an abrupt decay. Aside from that I'm having fun with Damping Matrix, which also conveniently gets hit by Abrupt Decay (like Grafdigger's cage, Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, and just about every other card you'd hope would shut their strategy down).

[Lord Seth]

Metagame data indicates that Melira Pod is no more broken/oppressive than BGx, Affinity, or Splinter Twin. If Melira Pod is banworthy, then those three decks need bans as well.

[Mr Miagi]

I was really hoping to see thopter foundry unbanned. CArd is not opressie. IT's rather slove (very) combo and looks cool enough to start brewing :frown:

[Phoenix Ignition]

Metagame data indicates that Melira Pod is no more broken/oppressive than BGx, Affinity, or Splinter Twin. If Melira Pod is banworthy, then those three decks need bans as well.

IIRC zoo wasn't oppressive when they banned GSZ for it. It's just when a certain card makes decks too swiss army knife there's no reason not to play them.

[Megadeus]

Was Green SUn banned alone? I forget. I think it was banned alone, then PFire and Nacatl were banned together right?

[Lord Seth]

IIRC zoo wasn't oppressive when they banned GSZ for it. It's just when a certain card makes decks too swiss army knife there's no reason not to play them.Not sure if Zoo was oppressive at the time (ironically, it became extremely oppressive afterwards). But Zoo wasn't the reason they banned Green Sun's Zenith, or at least not the only reason.


Was Green SUn banned alone? I forget. I think it was banned alone, then PFire and Nacatl were banned together right?Green Sun's Zenith was banned at the same time as Blazing Shoal, Cloudpost, Ponder, Preordain, and Rite of Flame. The next banning announcement hit Punishing Fire and Wild Nacatl.

[Mr. Safety]

It makes me a little sad that Birthing Pod didn't get any of its strategies hurt. Being able to throw in silver bullet answers is one of the reasons green sun's zenith got banned, it made it the overwhelmingly powerful strategy so that other midrange decks didn't have a reason not to also go that strategy. Also, having 2 card combos that do infinite damage allows the deck a quick avenue to beat stuff that can stop its midrange plan without diluting your deck too much makes it impossible to stop with just one strategy.

Honestly the best thing you can do to beat it is not care about it and just combo out yourself (splinter twin) or try to kill them in the first 2-3 turns before they can get their advantage going (affinity), but this has left modern in a pretty crappy place right now. Affinity is like the dragon stompy of legacy, where variance will bury you or allow you one to two big tournament wins.

I think the problem is pod isn't played enough for people to see why it's the reason for modern being a "slow combo" format. Even though it is the most played deck in the format (http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmin14/day2), it doesn't necessarily comprise the majority of the top 8's (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmin14/welcome) (2/8 in that case, but 7 of the top 16 lists). The problem is that the card advantage it buries you under (if you don't just ignore it and combo yourself, like Scapeshift + Twin) makes it impossible for regular midrange style decks to handle in time to kill you. Only a single BGx list made top 8, 2 in the top 16.

To stop Pod without a combo, you have to go the UWR control strategy with upwards of 15 removal and additional countermagic.

I do think the deck is oppressive and banworthy. The worst thing is their ability to cast a turn 2 Birthing pod relatively easily, which makes it near uncounterable and being an artifact is almost impossible to kill. If they print an Abrupt Decay that hits 4 cmc cards or some better removal for artifacts that doesn't just suck without being in your deck, maybe pod would be more handle-able, but as it stands it's just too good.

Anyway, rant aside, the best card to fight that deck right now is Aven Mindcensor and hoping that they don't draw an abrupt decay. Aside from that I'm having fun with Damping Matrix, which also conveniently gets hit by Abrupt Decay (like Grafdigger's cage, Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, and just about every other card you'd hope would shut their strategy down).

I agree with most, if not all, of this. Regardless of how slow birthing pod is (compared to say survival) its still a repeatable source of tutoring. The "drawback" of sacrificing a creature is an obnoxious argument, along with the drawback of using it only on your turn. Repeatable tutoring is repeatable tutoring, and I feel its oppressive.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Not sure if Zoo was oppressive at the time (ironically, it became extremely oppressive afterwards). But Zoo wasn't the reason they banned Green Sun's Zenith, or at least not the only reason.

Well the thing was all midrange decks that didn't play bloodbraid elf looked the same before they banned GSZ, and rightly so. It was a "big zoo" with hierarchs and GSZ and all the other good stuff, which was actually better than Jund largely do to the mana acceleration (Turn one arbor dryad). We've run into the same problem with pod being the only real midrange choice because there is literally no reason to play a midrange deck that can't fish for its silver bullets and infinite damage 2 card combos.

[Lord Seth]

We've run into the same problem with pod being the only real midrange choice because there is literally no reason to play a midrange deck that can't fish for its silver bullets and infinite damage 2 card combos.Did BGx just up and disappear in the last hour? How can you possibly claim that there is "literally no reason" to play one of the top decks in the format?

Claiming that Birthing Pod is the "only real midrange choice" is utterly nonsensical when one of the top decks is midrange and is not Birthing Pod.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Did BGx just up and disappear in the last hour? How can you possibly claim that there is "literally no reason" to play one of the top decks in the format?
I call it how I see it. Obviously "literally no reason" is an opinion. I feel like that is something that shouldn't have to be said on a forum. Clearly no one can claim to know all of the reasons for playing something.

Both from playing the format, but more so from looking at tournament data, the answer is clear. If we use the most recent large modern tournament GP Minneapolis as an example, you can see that 12% of day 2 decks were BGx (consisting mainly of Jund, though), and that 12% of the top 16 were BGx decks (once again, just jund). Now look at the percent of day 2 decks that made it to the top 16 for Pod. Pod consisted of 16% of day 2 decks starting out, and comprised a total of 44%(!) of the top 16. That is an extraordinarily high retention rate of pod decks. You're about 2.5 times as likely to get to the top 16 by playing pod than you would be playing BGx. Sure, maybe breakers were really unlucky on a bunch of BGx decks, maybe ________________________ happened, but 7 decks in the top 16 were Pod, maybe the same luck swang against a swathe of pod players instead.

Look at it this way, if you play BGx you're doing no better than if you were literally just coin flipping for the win with every opponent you play.


Claiming that Birthing Pod is the "only real midrange choice" is utterly nonsensical when one of the top decks is midrange and is not Birthing Pod.

Well, people have their reasons for everything, but if you want to win then you should be playing birthing pod. I have yet to see a single good argument for how that card is balanced or that deck is in any way worse than BGx.

[Lord Seth]

I call it how I see it. Obviously "literally no reason" is an opinion. I feel like that is something that shouldn't have to be said on a forum. Clearly no one can claim to know all of the reasons for playing something.It's not an opinion as to whether there is literally "no reason" to play a deck. Do you not think "I want to get into the finals at a Grand Prix" is a reason? Because that seemed to be a pretty good reason for Andrew Huska. That's a reason, right there, and it seems very objective. So it's not a matter of opinion; there obvious is a reason. Even if you claim it's not a good reason, that's not what you said. You said no reason.

Jund has gotten into the finals of a Grand Prix after the bans. Melira Pod, despite getting more decks into the top 8, has not. Kiki Pod did win, but I consider that a separate deck.

My nitpicky nature aside...


Both from playing the format, but more so from looking at tournament data, the answer is clear. If we use the most recent large modern tournament GP Minneapolis as an example, you can see that 12% of day 2 decks were BGx (consisting mainly of Jund, though), and that 12% of the top 16 were BGx decks (once again, just jund). Now look at the percent of day 2 decks that made it to the top 16 for Pod. Pod consisted of 16% of day 2 decks starting out, and comprised a total of 44%(!) of the top 16. That is an extraordinarily high retention rate of pod decks. You're about 2.5 times as likely to get to the top 16 by playing pod than you would be playing BGx. Sure, maybe breakers were really unlucky on a bunch of BGx decks, maybe ________________________ happened, but 7 decks in the top 16 were Pod, maybe the same luck swang against a swathe of pod players instead.Melira Pod was not 44% of the Top 16. Melira Pod was 31%, with Kiki-Pod at 12.5%. The two are actually rather different decks (despite both playing Birthing Pod), and should be grouped separately. Even if you do insist they should be classified together, you claim that Pod was 16%, when it was Melira Pod that was 16%. Melira Pod and Kiki Pod together were 19%.

Though I've never really felt that Grand Prix, due to their scarcity (trying to figure out the meta on a sample size of a handful of tournaments is not particularly useful--even if they are big tournaments, you still end up with the same number of data points in the Top 8/16), are particularly great reads on the meta by themselves, especially not right now when we've had only two such tournaments after the bannings shook the format up. They're more useful as a way to see if a deck can get into the Top 8/16, so you can point and note that UWR control isn't doing as badly as some people claim it is if it's capable of getting into the Top 4. And at present, we have only two data points for Grand Prix for the format after the (un)bannings happened. That's... not very many. If we had 3 or 4 I'd feel more comfortable, but 2 is too few.

Now, there was one other big tournament, the Pro Tour (where Melira Pod actually had a rather unimpressive outing), but that's not really a fair data point because so much of what decided the top decks had nothing to do with the decks themselves.

I'm not sure how many people SCG is going to get for its Modern Premier events, but I think those will be a great way to try to get a read on the metagame. They publish the decklists (or at least I expect they will), they should get a reasonable number of people attending, and they're all across the US so the impact of the local meta is lessened when you look at them on the whole.

But until then, we are in the middle of PTQ season, which I feel is a great way to get a feel on the overall metagame; lots of PTQs in lots of different areas gives you great data. For example, last year, you could clearly see if you looked at the data that Jund was by far the king of the format, whereas this year... things are way more even. On the downside, right now I don't know of anyone who's been keeping track of the PTQ meta by itself, but someone at MTG Salvation has been keeping track of the large (non-Grand Prix but with 40+ people) paper meta, which includes all the PTQs. You can find it here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1n3z_ASbs0dxCTN5b69pPqZZVfg7nznc4inTJtIdfcdk/pubhtml#). The results are, in regards to Top 8's for the Large paper events...
Affinity: 9.15%
Jund: 8.40%
UR Twin: 7.65%
Melira Pod: 7.35%
BG Rock: 6.15%
Scapeshift: 4.95%
RG Tron: 3.90%
UWR Control: 3.90%
RUG Twin: 3.75%
Kiki Pod: 3.30%
Burn: 2.70%
Merfolk: 2.40%
UWR Midrange: 2.25%
UWR Kiki Control: 2.25%
Faeries: 1.95%
Ad Nauseam: 1.95%
Living End: 1.95%
Naya Zoo: 1.80%
Storm: 1.65%
UR Delver: 1.65%
RUG: 1.65%
GW Death and Daxes: 1.35%
Domain Zoo: 1.20%
GW Hatebears: 1.20%
Junk Pod: 1.20%
Junk: 1.05%
Blue Moon: 1.05%

Kinda lengthy (I figured I should keep everything that's at 1% or better), but Melira Pod is only slightly higher than Jund if you combine it with "Junk Pod" (their apparent name for Angel Pod), though Jund jumps up to #1 if you combine it with Rock. If you decide to shove all the Birthing Pod decks together and all the BGx decks together, then you end up with BGx having about 4% more. If we try to do some lumping, we end up with:
BGx: 15.6% (Jund, Rock, Junk)
Birthing Pod: 11.85% (Melira Pod, Kiki Pod, Junk Pod)
URx Twin: 11.4% (UR Twin, RUG Twin)
Affinity: 9.15%

Birthing Pod is good, but it sure doesn't seem to be above and beyond what the other top decks are.

Bob Huang also has an interesting article here (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/july-2014-modern-metagame-analysis/) analyzing the Modern metagame. His criteria for the paper metagame is a bit different from the above (he only counts tournaments with 129+ players and goes by the top 5% of decks), but it's nevertheless interesting, and we end up with the following for paper:
1.) BG/x Variants (18.2%)
2.) Tempo Twin Variants (14.7%)
3.) UW/x Control Variants (12.8%)
4.) Affinity (10.7%)
5.) Melira Pod (9.4%)

Even if we opt to toss in Kiki Pod into the Melira Pod percentage, we end up with 13.4%, which still leaves it below Twin and BGx.


Well, people have their reasons for everything, but if you want to win then you should be playing birthing pod. I have yet to see a single good argument for how that card is balanced or that deck is in any way worse than BGx.Well, the results I gave indicate that it's doing well a bit less than BGx does, but even if we want to approach it simply from a perspective of looking at the decks rather than results...

The answer as to how it's worse than BGx is actually right there in front of you. But admittedly, it's kind of hiding in plain sight. See, there's a well kept secret about Melira Pod. And that's the fact that a lot of the time, you don't have Birthing Pod. Even ignoring the cases where it gets countered, discarded, deactivated (e.g. Grafdigger's Cage, Aven Mindcensor) or simply destroyed, the deck will simply not draw it a reasonable portion of the time, and it has no real way to tutor it up.

Melira Pod may not be hurt as much as Kiki Pod is when it doesn't have its Birthing Pod, but without it it still turns into a considerably worse version of Junk, which itself, as you noted, puts up less consistent results than Jund. It can pull out wins without Birthing Pod, but when it doesn't have it, it's really ultimately a worse version of a weaker variant of Jund. And that seems a real way that BGx is better than Melira Pod.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Looks like I'm wrong from these GP results.

[Blair Phoenix]

It makes me a little sad that Birthing Pod didn't get any of its strategies hurt. Being able to throw in silver bullet answers is one of the reasons green sun's zenith got banned, it made it the overwhelmingly powerful strategy so that other midrange decks didn't have a reason not to also go that strategy. Also, having 2 card combos that do infinite damage allows the deck a quick avenue to beat stuff that can stop its midrange plan without diluting your deck too much makes it impossible to stop with just one strategy.

Honestly the best thing you can do to beat it is not care about it and just combo out yourself (splinter twin) or try to kill them in the first 2-3 turns before they can get their advantage going (affinity), but this has left modern in a pretty crappy place right now. Affinity is like the dragon stompy of legacy, where variance will bury you or allow you one to two big tournament wins.

I think the problem is pod isn't played enough for people to see why it's the reason for modern being a "slow combo" format. Even though it is the most played deck in the format (http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmin14/day2), it doesn't necessarily comprise the majority of the top 8's (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmin14/welcome) (2/8 in that case, but 7 of the top 16 lists). The problem is that the card advantage it buries you under (if you don't just ignore it and combo yourself, like Scapeshift + Twin) makes it impossible for regular midrange style decks to handle in time to kill you. Only a single BGx list made top 8, 2 in the top 16.

To stop Pod without a combo, you have to go the UWR control strategy with upwards of 15 removal and additional countermagic.

I do think the deck is oppressive and banworthy. The worst thing is their ability to cast a turn 2 Birthing pod relatively easily, which makes it near uncounterable and being an artifact is almost impossible to kill. If they print an Abrupt Decay that hits 4 cmc cards or some better removal for artifacts that doesn't just suck without being in your deck, maybe pod would be more handle-able, but as it stands it's just too good.

Anyway, rant aside, the best card to fight that deck right now is Aven Mindcensor and hoping that they don't draw an abrupt decay. Aside from that I'm having fun with Damping Matrix, which also conveniently gets hit by Abrupt Decay (like Grafdigger's cage, Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, and just about every other card you'd hope would shut their strategy down).
Hushwing Gryff is a better hoser to Pod imo. Yes it's also killed by Decay, but besides combat, the only other answer they have to it is Pontiff's Haunt effect.

[bakofried]

As a dedicated green mage, I really think that it's overrepresented as a color. Honestly, I think most cards (barring only stupidity like Skullclamp) could feasibly come off the banned list, but I just want it to be a higher powered format. That said, give Blue Ancestral Visions and Jace.

You're not going to ban Tarmogoyf and Confidant, so let Stoneforge back in. To keep the format from getting asinine, let Storm have all of its rituals and cantrips. Then all the silly cards like Post could realistically come off, as midrange capable aggro decks can keep it off its plan. Elves could have Glimpse back, we could have GSZ, etc...

This is coming from someone who barely experiments with modern, so feel free to correct me. It just seems that to shake up the format in any one direction is a mistake, as it would tip something over the line. If, however, the floodgates are opened simultaneously, I think a new balance would be found that would be more diverse and higher powered.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Hushwing Gryff is a better hoser to Pod imo. Yes it's also killed by Decay, but besides combat, the only other answer they have to it is Pontiff's Haunt effect.

Which they can readily search up with an average of 7 cards in their deck. Mindcensor is better against any random deck (Scapeshift and Tron in particular, but you generally run Paths with it and everyone fetches), and can stop them from finding their singleton answers.

As for unbanning everything I wholeheartedly disagree. Stoneforge Batterskull can stay in Legacy. Turn 2 Inkmoth Nexus + Blazing Shoal protected by Pact of Negation can also stay dead. They could unban a few cards but the format cannot handle so much combo without a Force of Will.

[Arsenal]

As a dedicated green mage, I really think that it's overrepresented as a color. Honestly, I think most cards (barring only stupidity like Skullclamp) could feasibly come off the banned list, but I just want it to be a higher powered format. That said, give Blue Ancestral Visions and Jace.

You're not going to ban Tarmogoyf and Confidant, so let Stoneforge back in. To keep the format from getting asinine, let Storm have all of its rituals and cantrips. Then all the silly cards like Post could realistically come off, as midrange capable aggro decks can keep it off its plan. Elves could have Glimpse back, we could have GSZ, etc...

This is coming from someone who barely experiments with modern, so feel free to correct me. It just seems that to shake up the format in any one direction is a mistake, as it would tip something over the line. If, however, the floodgates are opened simultaneously, I think a new balance would be found that would be more diverse and higher powered.

There's already a format where you can cast Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, Glimpse, GSZ, etc... it's called Legacy. I have never understood the compulsion/desire/whatever from people wanting to turn Modern into Legacy-lite, which is exactly what it would be, just without the enforcers (Wasteland, Force of Will) around to keep things in check.

[bakofried]

If nothing else, I'd like to see modern blue based control deck that has an endgame not reliant on some sort of combo kill. I don't quite feel that UWR Midrange satisfies that niche.

Also, to argue that Modern has some kind of "identity" is pretty silly. What will that identity look like next banning?

[Arsenal]

Wizards has set some pretty hard rules for Modern, which undeniably has forged an identity. The set they chose to "begin" Modern with, the fundamental winning turn, the mana per turn restriction, the limited draw spells, etc. It's very clear and apparent as to how Modern has been shaped to be a different format from Legacy. Do you even play Modern competitively?

[bakofried]

No, but if you read my first post, you'd know that. My points haven't exactly been something only a dedicated modern player could have an opinion on. I opened with "feel free to correct me." You don't need to get your knickers in a bunch. :p

[Phoenix Ignition]

You don't need to get your knickers in a bunch. :p

So you're one of those people who posts on forums because you like trolling and that's pretty much it. If you ask something or say "feel free to correct me" you should expect people to correct you. That isn't getting someone's knickers in a bunch (emoticon that only shows douchebaggery), it's correcting your terrible idea of unbanning everything.

[Blair Phoenix]

If nothing else, I'd like to see modern blue based control deck that has an endgame not reliant on some sort of combo kill. I don't quite feel that UWR Midrange satisfies that niche.

Also, to argue that Modern has some kind of "identity" is pretty silly. What will that identity look like next banning?
Mono U Tron? Sort of.

[bakofried]

I'm not trolling in the slightest. I used that emoticon to convey lightheartedness, not whatever you're reading into it.

[YamiJoey]

Everything you said sounds terrible. Jace is the most broken card that has been printed in the Modern format. You basically said "I don't know what I'm talking about but...".

Also: Thopter Foundry isn't banned. If you meant Sword of the Meek, then I laugh in your general direction. Some cards are too powerful, and this is one of them. It cheats on mana, and generates more card advantage than any other card in the format right now. Purely as a CA engine, it is better than Jace, and the combo is actively better than Jace in every way, other than it costs more mana and is more than one card.

Unban Golgari Grave-Troll, that card doesn't do anything. Dredge might even see play. Without Dread Return, Ichorid, and Cabal Therapy the deck isn't even powerful when it does go off.

[rxavage]

Everything you said sounds terrible. Jace is the most broken card that has been printed in the Modern format. You basically said "I don't know what I'm talking about but...".

Also: Thopter Foundry isn't banned. If you meant Sword of the Meek, then I laugh in your general direction. Some cards are too powerful, and this is one of them. It cheats on mana, and generates more card advantage than any other card in the format right now. Purely as a CA engine, it is better than Jace, and the combo is actively better than Jace in every way, other than it costs more mana and is more than one card.

Unban Golgari Grave-Troll, that card doesn't do anything. Dredge might even see play. Without Dread Return, Ichorid, and Cabal Therapy the deck isn't even powerful when it does go off.

How can you "laugh in (someone's) general direction" and then proceed to say that Sword of the meek is better than Jace?

[ThomasDowd]

Can we just get preordain back? sleight of hand is so bad. thats all i really want.

and/or point me to the page where the preordain argument is made

[Mr. Safety]

Everything you said sounds terrible. Jace is the most broken card that has been printed in the Modern format. You basically said "I don't know what I'm talking about but...".

Also: Thopter Foundry isn't banned. If you meant Sword of the Meek, then I laugh in your general direction. Some cards are too powerful, and this is one of them. It cheats on mana, and generates more card advantage than any other card in the format right now. Purely as a CA engine, it is better than Jace, and the combo is actively better than Jace in every way, other than it costs more mana and is more than one card.

Unban Golgari Grave-Troll, that card doesn't do anything. Dredge might even see play. Without Dread Return, Ichorid, and Cabal Therapy the deck isn't even powerful when it does go off.

Dread Return is the big one, the deck can be powerful without ichorid and therapy. Extended dredge didn't play them and it could go off turn 3-4 with incredible consistency. Dread return onto a fkz was gg. The deck could exist without ggt but be super powerful with dr alone.

[Arsenal]

I still have never read/heard a well reasoned argument as to why Modern should have Jace, Stoneforge Mystic, Glimpse, Dredge pieces, Ponder, etc unbanned. The vast majority of the people calling for such unbannings are Legacy players, which is puzzling, as there already is a format where you can play with all of those cards, and more, in competitive decks... it's called "Legacy".

[wonderPreaux]

I still have never read/heard a well reasoned argument as to why Modern should have Jace, Stoneforge Mystic, Glimpse, Dredge pieces, Ponder, etc unbanned. The vast majority of the people calling for such unbannings are Legacy players, which is puzzling, as there already is a format where you can play with all of those cards, and more, in competitive decks... it's called "Legacy".

Legacy has no "expiration date" though, and it can be a dumping ground for problem commander cards. In Legacy, there are a couple dozen decks you should keep on your radar, and a couple dozen more as you delve into tier 2 decks. Modern having that kind of breadth as a format, with the slow rotation of cards that encourages adaptation and prevents dead-ending of card-selection could be pretty intriguing. IDK a ton about modern, but just conceptually one thing I wish all formats could take from legacy is the variety of "viable"/"decent" decks.

[Arsenal]

Modern has a significantly smaller card pool than Legacy does. There is no way that Modern would ever be able to come close/match Legacy's deck potential because Modern's card pool simply can't support it.

[Megadeus]

I mean, god forbid someone who is a legacy player also want to play modern and improve the format by suggesting unbanning things that are probably fine

[Arsenal]

Sure, there are probably a couple cards that could come off the Banned list in Modern, just like there are in Legacy, but if that's what's holding people back from playing Modern, then don't? I mean, it would be like if a Vintage-only player came on here and started talking about what Legacy should/shouldn't be, what cards should/shouldn't be on the Legacy Banned list, etc. If that player wants to play with Vintage cards... then play Vintage.

[Megadeus]

The difference is that legacy has had a much longer time tto figure out what works and what doesn't. Modern has a few cards that, while strong, have very strong arguments to being legal. Plus it has already been proven that they were wrong about stuff like Nacatl and Valakut.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Plus it has already been proven that they were wrong about stuff like Nacatl and Valakut.

This has got to be the worst logic I have ever seen.

[cherub_daemon]

Sure, there are probably a couple cards that could come off the Banned list in Modern, just like there are in Legacy, ...

I don't know who came up with this first, but I like the theory that they do this on purpose, so that they can "shake the jar" if they feel like the format is stale.

[kiblast]

Legacy is a diverse format. You have 3-4 established tier 1 decks, some highly competitive tier 1.5 decks and a shitload of semi competitive tier 2 decks. Modern is not diverse, modern is a confusional wild bunch of weird decks, and some tier 1.5 decks. You might think that not having tiers 1 in a format would be a good reason for calling that format diverse; but it's not. It's a good reason for calling that format a fucking mess. I say they should unban a lot of things, except the most degenerate ones such as Deathrite (because it is an automatic 4of in any deck, even burn was splashing black for it, obviously the reason was not bump in the night) or controversial ones such as Top. They should probably turn modern more into a ''legacy lite'' style.
The reason is that if you have strong (not broken, just the stronger modern-unbanwhorty-tools legacy has to offer) the format becomes more competitive, because less strategies become viable due to the presence of ''police cards'' that punish bad decks. Stoneforge could be an example.

[Arsenal]

Modern definitely has similar tiers, in that there's a tier 1, tier 1.5, then a swath of tier 2/3 decks. I really don't know what you're talking about when you say that Modern is nothing but "confusional, weird decks".

And you're advocating for "less strategies"?!? I thought the common complaint about Modern is that there aren't enough strategies, but you would have them unban cards to foster an environment where there are "less strategies"? Wow.

[kiblast]

Modern definitely has similar tiers, in that there's a tier 1, tier 1.5, then a swath of tier 2/3 decks. I really don't know what you're talking about when you say that Modern is nothing but "confusional, weird decks".


Well that's the way it is. I've seen small to medium sized tournaments won by Mill, mono blue turbo fog, Zur the Enchanter Auras, Unexpected Results.deck. How often do you see Enchantress or White Stax taking down a legacy tournament? Never. Modern is an undefined format mainly composed by a huge variety of fringe decks.


And you're advocating for "less strategies"?!? I thought the common complaint about Modern is that there aren't enough strategies, but you would have them unban cards to foster an environment where there are "less strategies"? Wow.

I've seen and heard the exact opposite. Everybody sees Modern as the format where everything is possible, where you can sleeve up your rogue homebrew and still have a decent shot- and this is happening all the time. All I'm advocating for is a more stable format, where there is a limited number of good decks and all I have to study and understand are the match ups between 3 or 4 major forces and few more other contestants. Not 45 different possible strategies. Probably I didn't express myself clearly.

[Arsenal]

Well that's the way it is. I've seen medium sized tournaments won by Mill, mono blue turbo fog, Zur the Enchanter Auras. How often do you see Enchantress or White Stax taking down a legacy tournament? Never.

I've looked at recent PTQ, PT, GPT, GP results for Modern and I do not see what you're talking about.

EDIT: Here's the listing of all winning Modern decks for tourneys that are 33+ players from Jan 1st through July 30th: http://tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=33&nhigh=6000&dlow=1&mlow=1&ylow=2014&dhigh=30&mhigh=7&yhigh=2014&player=&dname=&format=Modern&aname=&pos1=on&main=&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

From that, there's exactly 1 Mill deck that won a 115 man tourney, but if you look at the rest of that Top 8, you'll see all 7 other decks are in the tier 1/1.5 category. I don't agree with you that this type of thing is "happening all of the time", the results clearly prove that you're wrong.

For fun, here's the same search, but for Legacy: http://tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=33&nhigh=5000&dlow=1&mlow=1&ylow=2014&dhigh=30&mhigh=7&yhigh=2014&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=&pos1=on&main=&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

What's that I see? A Food Chain deck won a 72 man tourney? Oops All Spells took down a 92 man tourney? OMFG, this must be happening all of the time!!!!!


I've seen and heard the exact opposite. Everybody sees Modern as the format where everything is possible, where you can sleeve up your rogue homebrew and still have a decent shot- and this is happening all the time. All I'm advocating for is a more stable format, where there is a limited number of good decks and all I have to study and understand are the match ups versus between 3 or 4 major forces and few more other contestants. Not 45 different possible strategies. Probably I didn't express myself clearly.

This is not happening all of the time. Maybe at the local FNM level a deck like Millstone can win, but certainly not at the PTQ, PT, GPT, GP and even SCG's new Premier IQ series level. And there is a defined tier 1, tier 1.5, and tier 2/3 in Modern. You do have to focus on the 5 major decks (Twin variants, UWR variants, Pod variants, BGx variants, Affinity) and be aware of a few others (Tron, Storm, etc)... you definitely aren't studying 45 different decks as not all 45 decks are on the same level of competitiveness.

[Megadeus]

Even if that were the case, I don't see the problem. What's the issue with weird rogue strategies actually being playable? Like how is it possibly a bad thing if I can slap together a combination of cards that no-one has seen before and actually win a small tournament?

[bakofried]

I would like to know why Jace and/or Ancestral Visions would be too good for modern. Control decks aren't represented as an independent archetype: instead you have RUG Scapeshift, Twin Variants, and occasionally tron utilizing blue control elements, but only so long as it's ending in a combo finish. For instance - remand is an amazing card because it serves as protection/tempo. If proper control decks had an endgame, I believe more of them would play Rune Snag/Mana Leak.

Again, this is all coming from someone who plays exclusively with Savannahs at this point. I'm not a brainstorm thumper, I just think it'd be healthy to have a bit more archetypal diversity.

[kiblast]

Prrobably my point of view is flawed because it comes from local tournaments.But still I see a much greater variance in Modern vs Legacy.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Well that's the way it is. I've seen small to medium sized tournaments won by Mill, mono blue turbo fog, Zur the Enchanter Auras, Unexpected Results.deck. How often do you see Enchantress or White Stax taking down a legacy tournament? Never. Modern is an undefined format mainly composed by a huge variety of fringe decks.


Looks like I've finally made it!

Hi mom!!!

[Lord Seth]

Legacy is a diverse format. You have 3-4 established tier 1 decks, some highly competitive tier 1.5 decks and a shitload of semi competitive tier 2 decks. Modern is not diverse, modern is a confusional wild bunch of weird decks, and some tier 1.5 decks. You might think that not having tiers 1 in a format would be a good reason for calling that format diverse; but it's not. It's a good reason for calling that format a fucking mess. I say they should unban a lot of things, except the most degenerate ones such as Deathrite (because it is an automatic 4of in any deck, even burn was splashing black for it, obviously the reason was not bump in the night) or controversial ones such as Top. They should probably turn modern more into a ''legacy lite'' style.
The reason is that if you have strong (not broken, just the stronger modern-unbanwhorty-tools legacy has to offer) the format becomes more competitive, because less strategies become viable due to the presence of ''police cards'' that punish bad decks. Stoneforge could be an example.Um... thing is, your description of Legacy, "3-4 established tier 1 decks, some highly competitive tier 1.5 decks and a shitload of semi competitive tier 2 decks," applies to Modern as well.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Alright I didn't want to have to do this, but maybe I should steer discussion towards non-bitching. GP Boston happened last weekend, with a top 8 that included 2 Junk, 1 Jund, 2 Affinity, 2 Infect and 1 Blue Moon.

Let's start out by saying clearly junk/jund is a deck (obvious for most non-me people). Here's the breakdown of the day 2 metagame (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpbos14/d2meta):
Birthing Pod - 32
Affinity - 26
Splinter Twin Decks:
Basic Blue-Red - 21
Tarmo-Twin - 10
Splashing White - 4
Rock Decks:
Whiterock - 20
Classic Jund - 16
Straight Black-Green - 10
Blue-White-Red decks:
Without Geist of Saint Traft - 12
With Geist of Saint Traft - 10
Scapeshift - 22
Burn - 20
Tron - 12 (I think 11 GR, 1 Mono U)
RUG - 6
Delver/Young Pyromancer - 6
Merfolk - 5
Bogles - 5
Living End - 4
Infect - 4 (!)
Other- 33

And undefeated day 1 decks include:
Burn
Junk
Living End
martyr Life
2 Melira pod

It's really hard to find top 16 lists, but I heard somewhere that 2 pod made it there but not to top 8 due to tiebreakers.

Anyway, first off 2 of the 4 Infect decks that made day 2 were in the top 8, which suggests that deck is either in a really good position in today's metagame or some fluke happened. UR storm is apparently no longer a deck, and Tron has significantly declined (although people still sideboard a lot for it). Other than the resurgence of Infect and GBx strategies doing better than average, not too many things have changed.

[Lord Seth]

There was also a BUG Infect and a Monoblue Tron deck that went undefeated on Day 1.

By the way, I hate the way they did the metagame breakdown. They gave no distinction between the different kind of Pod or Tron decks, and they didn't bother to give you a complete list of the "Rogues Corners" decks and how many copies there were.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Agreed, I can't understand why there isn't a top 16 listed. Also, the new interface of listing the top 8 one by one is just terrible. They don't even give you a list of archetypes, you have to physically click each person's name to see their list (which isn't even accompanied by something that tells you how they finished in the top 8). Just complete horse shit, like only WotC could do with anything online.

It does mention that something like "most" of the tron decks were GR and one person had a Mono U.

[Arsenal]

When I think of the top tier in Modern (consistently winning tourneys), I am focusing on the following:

* Affinity

* Twin variants (RUG, UR, Turbo even)

* BGx variants (Rock, Jund, Junk)

* Pod variants (Kiki, Melira, Angel even)

* UWR variants (Control, Geist Midrange, Resto-Kiki)

Then there is a tier 1.5 class where Scapeshift, Tron, Storm exist. The decks in tier 1 and tier 1.5 sometimes will interchange depending on the ebb and flow of the meta (ie., Scapeshift may become tier 1, or Storm will become tier 1 while Twin slides down into tier 1.5, etc). Seeing one of these decks taking 1st isn't a big surprise at all.

After that, there is a tier 2 class where Living End, Ad Nauseam, Faeries, Infect, Boggles, Zoo, GW Hatebears, Burn, Tokens, etc exist. These decks tend to remain in tier 2 regardless of meta shifts as they lack a substantial amount of xxxx (consistency, power, whatever) to compete with tier 1 and tier 1.5 decks on a regular basis. You may see these decks take 1st at a tourney, but this is a rare occurrence indeed.

Then you have random rogue decks that are difficult to label and quantify due to it's very nature as a surprise, rogue strategy.

[YamiJoey]

How can you "laugh in (someone's) general direction" and then proceed to say that Sword of the meek is better than Jace?

People who want Jace unbanned: People who don't read text.

You don't make a deck good by unbanning the single most powerful card printed for that deck probably ever. (I didn't play the very old versions of a deck.)

LSV(?) recently wrote that Affinity, Twin, BG, and Pod are the T1 decks, and I see no reason to add UWR to that list any time soon. It's good, but just good. I think Infect is creeping up in both popularity, and position in the format. It's doing well every time I see it, even when the list isn't even great.

[bakofried]

See, you keep saying that, but you never say why.

[Arsenal]

Meh, UWR variants could be in tier 1.5 I suppose, but based off these results (2-7-14 through today): http://tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=33&nhigh=5000&dlow=7&mlow=2&ylow=2014&dhigh=30&mhigh=7&yhigh=2014&player=&dname=&format=Modern&aname=&main=snapcaster+mage%3B+lightning+bolt%3B+path+to+exile%3B+celestial+colonnade&nomain=deceiver+exarch%3B+pestermite&side=&noside=&strict=on, I would personally include it in tier 1. It had a 1st place finish at PT Valencia, 3 decks in the top 8 of GP Minneapolis, and numerous top 8 finishes in many PTQs.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Pretty good article by Jeff Hoogland (http://themeadery.org/articles/leaving-legacy-for-a-modern-mistress) on why he's giving up Legacy for Modern. Great points in general about deck choice too (play the best thing, stop fooling yourself with worse decks).

[Arsenal]

bakofried -

Those cards may one day be unbanned in Modern, who knows. I'd say of those two cards, Ancestral Vision would be more likely to be unbanned first (if at all). A lot of the cards that are currently banned have ALWAYS been banned as they either were "inherited" from the Extended banned list, or were just banned from the jump.

Some cards are banned due to how dominant they were in their respective Standard environments. Although it's been shown that Modern likely can handle the unbanning of such a card (ie. Bitterblossom), I think Wizards is playing it safe and really paying attention to Modern's health. Having in Modern [I]may do nothing, or it could push an established deck into the forefront, or it could prove to be completely busted in any deck able to support it. Who knows? Not me.

What I do know is that they've shown that they're willing to unbans cards, and they've been right for the most part. Unbanning Valakut, Wild Nacatl, and Bitterblossom hasn't broken the format, only added to it. I personally like that there is obvious attention paid to Modern unlike other formats that essentially have been left on their own to wither and die.

I personally believe Ancestral Vision would be fine to unban, but Jace may be a touch over the power level that they want Modern to have.

[Timber]

And undefeated day 1 decks include:
Burn
Junk
Living End
martyr Life
2 Melira pod

Isn't this what defines a tier 1 and tier 2 deck? Tier 1 decks put up consistent results on day 2 of GPs and Pro Tours. Tier 2 decks go undefeated day 1, but fizzle when they face a full gauntlet of the best decks with the best pilots on day 2.

[Timber]

It makes me a little sad that Birthing Pod didn't get any of its strategies hurt. Being able to throw in silver bullet answers is one of the reasons green sun's zenith got banned, it made it the overwhelmingly powerful strategy so that other midrange decks didn't have a reason not to also go that strategy. Also, having 2 card combos that do infinite damage allows the deck a quick avenue to beat stuff that can stop its midrange plan without diluting your deck too much makes it impossible to stop with just one strategy.

Honestly the best thing you can do to beat it is not care about it and just combo out yourself (splinter twin) or try to kill them in the first 2-3 turns before they can get their advantage going (affinity), but this has left modern in a pretty crappy place right now. Affinity is like the dragon stompy of legacy, where variance will bury you or allow you one to two big tournament wins.

I think the problem is pod isn't played enough for people to see why it's the reason for modern being a "slow combo" format. Even though it is the most played deck in the format (http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmin14/day2), it doesn't necessarily comprise the majority of the top 8's (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmin14/welcome) (2/8 in that case, but 7 of the top 16 lists). The problem is that the card advantage it buries you under (if you don't just ignore it and combo yourself, like Scapeshift + Twin) makes it impossible for regular midrange style decks to handle in time to kill you. Only a single BGx list made top 8, 2 in the top 16.

To stop Pod without a combo, you have to go the UWR control strategy with upwards of 15 removal and additional countermagic.

I do think the deck is oppressive and banworthy. The worst thing is their ability to cast a turn 2 Birthing pod relatively easily, which makes it near uncounterable and being an artifact is almost impossible to kill. If they print an Abrupt Decay that hits 4 cmc cards or some better removal for artifacts that doesn't just suck without being in your deck, maybe pod would be more handle-able, but as it stands it's just too good.

Anyway, rant aside, the best card to fight that deck right now is Aven Mindcensor and hoping that they don't draw an abrupt decay. Aside from that I'm having fun with Damping Matrix, which also conveniently gets hit by Abrupt Decay (like Grafdigger's cage, Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, and just about every other card you'd hope would shut their strategy down).



I agree with most, if not all, of this. Regardless of how slow birthing pod is (compared to say survival) its still a repeatable source of tutoring. The "drawback" of sacrificing a creature is an obnoxious argument, along with the drawback of using it only on your turn. Repeatable tutoring is repeatable tutoring, and I feel its oppressive.

I second this. In my experience playing against Pod, I can handle 2-3 of the deck's threats, but several tutor-able cards can replace all that work I did very easily. Inexpensive, instant-speed tutoring in response to removal, available every turn is oppressive.

[Timber]

If nothing else, I'd like to see modern blue based control deck that has an endgame not reliant on some sort of combo kill. I don't quite feel that UWR Midrange satisfies that niche.

Celestial Colonnade, Restoration Angel, and Gideon Jura aren't enough? Shaun Mclaren added the Kiki combo to his deck after he won PT Born of the Gods.

[YamiJoey]

I second this. In my experience playing against Pod, I can handle 2-3 of the deck's threats, but several tutor-able cards can replace all that work I did very easily. Inexpensive, instant-speed tutoring in response to removal, available every turn is oppressive.

But that's not what it is. You have to spend the full mana to cast the Creature you're finding, plus a Green Phyrexian, plus the 3(G/p) to get Pod onto the table, plus keep the Pod around to untap, and then you can go and find your good cards, provided you have the correct card to use to go and get your good card. It's a super-powered Transmute. Pod is a full archetype that is not consistently putting up oppressive results, it is just a very powerful deck. It's like saying we should ban Chalice in Legacy.

The UWR control deck is very sketchy, and rarely a viable deck-choice.

[Megadeus]

Why does no-one outside of pod main board any disenchant effects? The only decks they seem bad against are the GB AND the URW decks. Otherwise against most things they have some juicy targets, like pod and twin and such

[Phoenix Ignition]

Because Abrupt Decay is the only decent one that isn't dead in half of the matchups. Naturalize is bad because stuff like Junk, Burn, UWR, Scapeshift, and a slew of other tier 2 decks don't run anything that you'd hit. Against Twin if you have any creature removal it's actually better than an enchantment removal since they also play Kiki-Jiki. Pod wins half of their games without using their namesake card, so you don't really want a dead card against them, and if they play pod they get an activation out of it before you can do anything anyway.

[Lord Seth]

Because Abrupt Decay is the only decent one that isn't dead in half of the matchups. Naturalize is bad because stuff like Junk, Burn, UWR, Scapeshift, and a slew of other tier 2 decks don't run anything that you'd hit.Actually, Burn runs Eidolon, which is an Enchantment. That said, that's basically the only card in the deck it hits (unless they bring in Blood Moon), so it basically does nothing if they don't draw Eidolon.


Against Twin if you have any creature removal it's actually better than an enchantment removal since they also play Kiki-Jiki.Enchantment destruction isn't that great against Twin, but it's not because of Kiki-Jiki (which some decks don't run, and the decks that do run him only play 1 or 2 copies). It's because Twin decks are relying less and less on the combo, especially postboard. That Disenchant starts looking a lot less impressive if they don't cast any targets for it, and it won't do anything to stop their Pestermite or Tarmogoyf from beating down on you.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Actually, Burn runs Eidolon, which is an Enchantment. That said, that's basically the only card in the deck it hits (unless they bring in Blood Moon), so it basically does nothing if they don't draw Eidolon.
This is nitpicking. Obviously you don't want enchantment hate against burn's 4-of eidolons. Some burn decks run Shrine of Burning Rage, but again, unless you have some really dead cards, you don't want something like naturalize.


Enchantment destruction isn't that great against Twin, but it's not because of Kiki-Jiki (which some decks don't run, and the decks that do run him only play 1 or 2 copies). It's because Twin decks are relying less and less on the combo, especially postboard. That Disenchant starts looking a lot less impressive if they don't cast any targets for it, and it won't do anything to stop their Pestermite or Tarmogoyf from beating down on you.
If we're nitpicky, removal isn't better than enchantment hate because of their beating plan, it's better than enchantment hate because, aside from being more versatile, it also 2 for 1's twin when they go to play their Splinter Twin on the combo creature.

Also, post board many twins play Blood Moon, so even if they side out Splinter Twin it's possible you'd want the naturalize since most decks not running Blood Moon already get hit by it very hard.

[MatthewMyers]

Maelstrom Pulse and Abrupt Decay are my usual Enchant/Articact removal options as a Jund player. I don't see too much that they don't hit. When I'm playing UTron, I count on my counter spells and repeal to get me past. UWR, I'm in the same boat with counter spells. I do have a friend running Dead Guy Ale who swears by his 1+1 MD/SB Disenchants.

[Lord Seth]

This is nitpicking. Obviously you don't want enchantment hate against burn's 4-of eidolons. Some burn decks run Shrine of Burning Rage, but again, unless you have some really dead cards, you don't want something like naturalize.I know, and I agree. But I did want to point out that it isn't dead against Burn, just bad.

Unless you're GR Tron, of course. Then Nature's Claim is astoundingly good against Burn, because even if they don't have Eidolon, you can just use it on your own artifacts to get yourself 4 life.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I do have a friend running Dead Guy Ale who swears by his 1+1 MD/SB Disenchants.

I think this can be a right call in very specific metagames. You'd need to be pretty sure what you're facing though, which is impossible for larger tournaments.

[Mr. Safety]

If I were to maindeck a sideboard card it would be something much more broad, such as Engineered Explosives.

On topic, is there anything worth banning currently? I don't really think so, even though I loathe Pod.

To unban? Maybe ancestral visions or bloodbraid elf.

[Kanti]

This is the worst format ever. I really wish they would unban everything. When Wizards said they were making a new format I was expecting something thriving with different decks like Legacy, like Extended 2007, alas they gave us Modern. It's been an obvious failure as they took it out of PT's.

Hell I wish they would scrap Modern and just include Invasion block onwards, and then make some possible bans from there. I can see some culprits, but think about it. Brainstormless Miracles, TEPS, Dredge, Zoo, Goblin Bidding, Affinity, Delver Something, Elves, various non-Elves GSZ decks, Tron/Post, etc.

[Lord Seth]

This is the worst format ever.And you say this based on... what? Presumably you dislike the banned list, but you don't make an argument.


I really wish they would unban everything.You want Skullclamp unbanned? You actually think that card would in any way make for a healthy format?


When Wizards said they were making a new format I was expecting something thriving with different decks like Legacy, like Extended 2007, alas they gave us Modern.Which it... is? What's the issue, the format does have a whole lot of different decks. Sure, some are more prominent than others, but that's true of Legacy or Extended 2007 or any format ever made.


It's been an obvious failure as they took it out of PT's.And then put it back.

But right, it's been an obvious failure. I mean, it's not like a Modern Grand Prix set a record for highest attended constructed GP ever. It's not like the price of staples have been going up noticeably this year, indicating increased interest in the format. Obviously, because Wizards of the Coast briefly took it out of Pro Tours, it's a failure.

And honestly, a big reason they took it out of Pro Tours was because Modern doesn't move packs of the most recent sets. A whole lot of cards jumped up in price after the Pro Tour, but few of them were from the most recent sets. Granted, I think that's more the fault of the more recent sets for not giving much to the format, but that was a big part of the reason they did it.


Hell I wish they would scrap Modern and just include Invasion block onwards, and then make some possible bans from there. I can see some culprits, but think about it. Brainstormless Miracles, TEPS, Dredge, Zoo, Goblin Bidding, Affinity, Delver Something, Elves, various non-Elves GSZ decks, Tron/Post, etc.I actually do wish they had started at an earlier point; there are too many interest cards from Odyssey and Onslaught that are excluded simply because they look different. I wouldn't mind the inclusion of Invasion either, but Invasion has fewer cards that I look at and think "man, it's really annoying this isn't Modern legal." Still, unlikely they'll be changing it now. I would like it if they were to reprint some of the "cool, but not good enough for Legacy" cards, though, like Astral Slide and Fact or Fiction.

[DragoFireheart]

There's already a format where you can cast Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, Glimpse, GSZ, etc... it's called Legacy. I have never understood the compulsion/desire/whatever from people wanting to turn Modern into Legacy-lite, which is exactly what it would be, just without the enforcers (Wasteland, Force of Will) around to keep things in check.

Because I want to play cool and powerful cards without having to dump 2 grand into my mana base.

[Lord Seth]

Well, no changes this time around. Though I happened to be looking at some of the older posts, and it is amusing to see things like this being said:
Bitterblossem WILL NEVER BE UNBAND, sorry that card is way too good. (if they ever do, it will auto win PT)For a card that would automatically win the Pro Tour, it didn't even manage to get into the Top 8.

Granted, it's easier to know things like this with the benefit of hindsight... but it's still a bit funny.

[Davran]

Well, no changes this time around.

I'm disappointed in this as I find modern to be relatively stale. Maybe the addition of the onslaught fetches will shake things up some...

[iamajellydonut]

I'm disappointed in this as I find modern to be relatively stale.

They should ban some things to increase diversity.

[Davran]

They should ban some things to increase diversity.

Obviously. Everyone knows that diversity increases with smaller sample sizes...

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'm generally pro-banning to shake up a stale format where decks have settled at the top, but this time I like their decision. The fetch lands absolutely will change Modern, and maybe one or two other cards in the new set might do something, but really just stabilizing manabases of some decks should be enough to push them up to the top. I'm interested to see how much will change from this set.

[iamajellydonut]

I'm generally pro-banning to shake up a stale format where decks have settled at the top

The joke was that this has never worked.

[Phoenix Ignition]

The joke was that this has never worked.

Tell that to Zoo which dominated before GSZ got the axe (with nacatl, which clearly wasn't the problem).

[Lord Seth]

Tell that to Zoo which dominated before GSZ got the axe (with nacatl, which clearly wasn't the problem).I believe you mean "Punishing Fire," not GSZ. GSZ was not banned with Wild Nacatl, and in fact Zoo did not become dominant until after Green Sun's Zenith was banned (admittedly, it wasn't so much Green Sun's Zenith being banned that made Zoo dominant as the fact it was simultaneously banned with Blazing Shoal, Ponder, Preordain, Cloudpost, and Rite of Flame). In order to combat the dominance of Zoo, Punishing Fire and Wild Nacatl were then banned. Of course, as time has shown, Punishing Fire was the problem, not Wild Nacatl.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I believe you mean "Punishing Fire," not GSZ. GSZ was not banned with Wild Nacatl, and in fact Zoo did not become dominant until after Green Sun's Zenith was banned (admittedly, it wasn't so much Green Sun's Zenith being banned that made Zoo dominant as the fact it was simultaneously banned with Blazing Shoal, Ponder, Preordain, Cloudpost, and Rite of Flame). In order to combat the dominance of Zoo, Punishing Fire and Wild Nacatl were then banned. Of course, as time has shown, Punishing Fire was the problem, not Wild Nacatl.

That too, I forgot about them having Punishing Fire too. GSZ pushed the format into "green or combo" though, at least from what I remember of my meta in the time. Maybe tron was a thing then too, I'm not sure. Either way, I'm not sure if someone was insinuating that bans don't shake up the format or what, but you are correct.

[iamajellydonut]

That too, I forgot about them having Punishing Fire too. GSZ pushed the format into "green or combo" though, at least from what I remember of my meta in the time. Maybe tron was a thing then too, I'm not sure. Either way, I'm not sure if someone was insinuating that bans don't shake up the format or what, but you are correct.

How did the bans "shake up the format"? True, Zoo is as dead as Mussolini , but did its death spark the creation of new decks? Enable any decks? Did its death do anything other than shift Deck C from Slot 2 to Slot 1 and Deck L from Slot 3 to Slot 2 and so on and so forth? The correct answer is "no". The deck simply ceased to exist.

[Megadeus]

That's one thing I've noticed with modern. Bans generally haven't really made more decks appear. They have just made certain decks disappear and maybe a slight shift in the meta

[Davran]

That's one thing I've noticed with modern. Bans generally haven't really made more decks appear. They have just made certain decks disappear and maybe a slight shift in the meta

This is kind of interesting if you think about it. If the purpose of bans is to keep things fair by giving multiple strategies a fighting chance, why haven't the repeated changes to the ban list contributed to the development of new decks and/or made existing decks significantly better? Maybe the missing piece is the Onslaught fetches and we're in for a real shakeup.

[iamajellydonut]

This is kind of interesting if you think about it. If the purpose of bans is to keep things fair by giving multiple strategies a fighting chance, why haven't the repeated changes to the ban list contributed to the development of new decks and/or made existing decks significantly better? Maybe the missing piece is the Onslaught fetches and we're in for a real shakeup.

That's pieces being introduced to a format. Not the other way around.

[nedleeds]

Because the cards that were unbanned aren't good or are no better than other cards, Nacatyl is a 3/3 in a format where Lightning Bolt is the best card, where even the 'storm' decks play Lightning Bolt. Bitterblossom again just isn't great in a format with no Stoneforge Mystic and playing sorcery speed stuff on the draw (that doesn't do anything until your next turn) on your second turn isn't impressive. Bitterblossom usually reads, 'Place this card in your graveyard all your opponents Tarmogoyfs gain +2/+2'.

I would actually argue that if they are going to allow the 4 mana (3 for pod) oops I win the game cards (Twin, Pod, Scrapeshit) exist they could actually unban a few more cards. I think the modern list is roughly grouped into a few buckets


Dark Depths
Hypergenesis
Blazing Shoal
Rite of Flame
Seething Song
Chrome Mox


Oops I won on my second turn. Could one of the last 3 come off, probably. Chrome Mox has the most commitment and could be played in creature decks.



Ancient Den
Seat of the Synod
Tree of Tales
Vault of Whispers
Great Furnace


Affinity is competitive as is and we aren't reprinting Wasteland or Powder Keg. I actually think it's less about these being artifacts and more about how it would solve any color issues Affinity had. Unsure if these would break the format, Sinkhole with Flashback for {g} is a beating. Stony Silence is Stasis for you. I think the dumbest card in Affinity is actually just Cranial Plating. Take that out and add the arty lands in and see if that deck is insane.


Cloudpost


The current Urza based ramp deck can get Karn out by turn 3 is this any faster? I suppose it's more resilient. More ways to cast Emrakul aren't needed.


Mental Misstep
Green Sun's Zenith
Deathrite Shaman
Stoneforge Mystic
Skullclamp
Umezawa's Jitte


56 card format. These cards are so good at what they do they'd just make deck building dumb. Are you playing creatures and not playing maindeck Stony Silence then you are playing Jitte and Clamp. Are you playing white and planning on attacking? Stoneforge. Are you playing any amount of green creatures? GSZ. Are you playing green or black? DRS. Are you playing modern? 4 Misstep.


Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Ponder
Preordain
Second Sunrise


We hate Combo. Second Sunrise is we hate combo combined with we hate dumb players taking minutes to resolve turns.


Sensei's Divining Top
Punishing Fire


We hate inevitability. Both these cards unchecked just mean the controller will win the game since they always have something to do. Fires makes for a soft lock on board vs. mid range creature decks, and counter top makes a soft lock on the stack for those same decks. Top also suffers from ubiquity, and slow play problems.


Bloodbraid Elf
Sword of the Meek
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Golgari Grave-Troll
Ancestral Vision


Some number of these could probably come off. I get that SotM is a two card combo that sort of wins the game but there's no SFM, no Enlightened tutor, they are both fucking dreadful by themselves. Abrupt Decay exists now and there is beaucoup artifact hate in most decks thanks to Cranial Plating.

Either Jace or Visions could maybe come off. Right now the control decks are just flash decks, they are pretty miserable to play against if you get behind because it's tough to beat a resolved Cryptic Command. Some main phase blue cards would be interesting. Maybe the same dumb twin deck would just jam jaces or visions and be even dumber.

GGT reads "Do nothing because Dread Return is still banned, Cabal Therapy isn't reprinted, and I'm not even black or a zombie".

BBE into? A random card? Maybe a simul-unban of this and Jace. I guess it's a really good creature and leads to some random blowouts, but back to my list of 4 mana derp I win the game cards. Scrapeshit just wins. Twin just wins. This is a 3/2 with haste that might find you something good and applicable. But it and the cascade can be countered, it has 2 toughness, no evasion.

[Davran]

Stuff

I honestly think either GGT and/or Dread Return could come off the list and the format would be fine. I get that someone over at WotC hates that dredge is a thing, but without Ichorid, Cabal Therapy, Putrid Imp, Breakthrough, LED etc. the deck is merely OK. Like Bitterblossom, the cards were snap banned when they announced the format instead of given a chance to prove that they deserve it.

Further, modern as a format is full of utility creatures and midrange dorks that excel at exiling your Bridge From Below, not to mention the solid graveyard hate that's been printed since the banlist's inception.

[TraxDaMax]

Even if that were the case, I don't see the problem. What's the issue with weird rogue strategies actually being playable? Like how is it possibly a bad thing if I can slap together a combination of cards that no-one has seen before and actually win a small tournament?
Exactly. The people whining about this should just play standard imo. Smaller cardbase, doesn't hurt their brains that much.
And even then, the cardbase of Modern isn't even that fascinating. Some day it will be when a couple more sets come out, and hopefully that will bring more complexity.

[Noctalor]

I tryed to build a decent modern dredge, the main issues are:

1) Lack of sac outlet, being force into narco + bloodghast demand a sac outlet in order to abuse bridge, only viable choices are gargadon and self-conflagrate
2) only one decent enebler, faithless looting
3) broken cards cost 3 mana, not one (shattered perception mainly)

this is what i was goldfishing in the end

4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Faithless Looting
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Darkblast
4 Narcomoeba
3 Lingering Souls
4 Shattered Perception
3 Dakmor Salvage
4 Mana Confluence
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Blood Crypt
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Dangerous Wager
2 Conflagrate
2 Rally the Peasants

And was far from being decent (super slow basicly) and still on heavy changes needed, GGT would not help much, DR would be nice but the real problem is not be able to play at least 8 faithless.

[Rook1e]

So I wrote a 2-part blogpost about modern and the B&R list (second post will be posted tomorrow). Give it a look and let me know what you think


http://deliriousobsessions.wordpress.com/2014/12/01/adjusting-to-a-modern-world-br-list-part-1/


If this is against the rules, then I'm sorry and you can't just delete/ignore this post.

- Rook

[Rook1e]

So I wrote a 2-part blogpost about modern and the B&R list (second post will be posted tomorrow). Give it a look and let me know what you think


http://deliriousobsessions.wordpress.com/2014/12/01/adjusting-to-a-modern-world-br-list-part-1/


If this is against the rules, then I'm sorry and you can't just delete/ignore this post.

- Rook

Part 2 is up and live.

http://deliriousobsessions.wordpress.com/2014/12/02/adjusting-to-a-modern-world-br-list-part-2/

[TraxDaMax]

Part 2 is up and live.

http://deliriousobsessions.wordpress.com/2014/12/02/adjusting-to-a-modern-world-br-list-part-2/
Nice articles. I'm pretty much 90% on board with those bans/unbans.

[Mr. Safety]

Great read, thanks. I agree for the most part. I feel that Dread Return (a free reanimation spell) would be too good without a free counterspell. That is one card that is too good. Also, Glimpse is too good. I plaued extended when Elves was far and away the best deck. It loses a few key dudes (Birchlore Ranger, wirewood symbiote) but there are enough one mana elves to make uo for it...not to mention Summoners Pact. It was a consistent turn 2-3 deck that was absurd.

[Lord Seth]

I'm sorry, but I think these blog posts of yours indicate considerable unfamiliarity with the format. That's not to say there aren't any valid points, but too much of it isn't very well thought out. The whole thing smacks of a big article on Legacy being written by someone whose impression of the format is that all the decks win on the first few turns. It just shows lack of knowledge of what the format is actually like or why cards are banned, which is problematic when someone is trying to argue what should be done to the format.

For example, let's look at some of the rather dubious claims being made:


Next up is this little guy. He was unfortunate enough to be the scapegoat when Jund was dominating Modern. Actually, Bloodbraid Elf was the scapegoat, not Deathrite Shaman. Deathrite Shaman wasn't a scapegoat; it was legitimately the problem, which is why it had to get banned a year later. There's really no purpose to bring this back, especially with Junk being quite good without it right now.


When talking about Cloudpost, it is easy to compare it to the Tron lands – so lets do that. The perfect turn 3 with Tron leaves you with 7 colorless mana. The perfect turn 3 with Cloudpost leaves you with 6 mana. When we move on Cloudpost slowly overtakes the Tron lands. As of this moment I can’t remember the last time a Tron deck put up any respectable results? To be honest, I don’t think that Tron is a top tier deck and also it is pretty far from it. By unbanning Cloudpost we suddenly make ramp-into-big-awesome-things a top tier strategy. Even with the subpar land destruction we have in Modern already, I believe that this strategy can be kept under control.Comparing 12-Post to Urzatron (I assume we are referring to GR Tron, which has the most in common with 12-Post) is like comparing Wasteland to Ghost Quarter. You can try to find some corner cases where the latter is better, but the former is obviously way better so much across the board they're not really comparable in power.

One of those corner cases is that a "perfect turn 3" gives more mana in Urzatron. Yeah, but that perfect turn doesn't happen that often. On average, 12-Post will have more mana on turn 3 than Urzatron will. You also overlook that it's far more difficult to disrupt (12-Post is like an Urzatron deck that requires only Urza's Tower to get the acceleration going) and has a much bigger edge against aggro thanks to Glimmerpost.

Another huge advantage of 12-Post is that it requires much less support to work. Because Urzatron needs a copy of each Urza land to get its mana acceleration, it has to run a ton of cards to make sure that happens. 4x Sylvan Scrying, 4x Expedition Map, 4x Chromatic Star, 4x Chromatic Sphere. Because 12-Post doesn't require you to find a copy of Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, and Vesuva, it's able cut down significantly on those cards and run better ones in their place. And the inherent lifegain of Glimmerpost makes cards like Pyroclasm less required. 12-Post is able to cut a lot of the "chaff" from Urzatron and become more powerful as a result.

Indeed, 12-Post was part of the reason the format was so warped in its infancy. Granted, the overpowered nature of the combo decks was a problem in and of itself, but 12-Post ensured that slower control or midrange decks would have no shot. The only way to beat the deck was to just win faster than it could.

I could understand saying that a weakened version of 12-Post would be acceptable, i.e. just banning Green Sun's Zenith or Vesuva. But you're proposing we allow fully-powered 12-Post around. I'd actually love to play that deck in Modern, but it would be a huge problem.

This relates somewhat to your argument for Seething Song:

I already discussed this in my last post when I discussed why Rite of Flame had to stay on the bench for know. This card will put Storm back on the radar and provide Modern with what I perceive as a ‘real’ combo deck, but the uprise in control will help keep its dominance down and the lack of interaction (compared to its Legacy counterpart) will continue to make Storm an easy deck to disrupt. So stop crying, make a better sideboard and get on with it.Uptick in control? There will be a downtick in control as long as 12-Post is so good.

Even if we roll back on Cloudpost, your argument for unbanning it doesn't address the whole reason it was banned in the first place: With Seething Song, the deck simply won too fast. Now, to be fair, maybe under the new banned list it wouldn't be as good (decks only get banned for winning too fast if they also are top tier) and wouldn't need a ban, but then that seems to kind of make the unban pointless to begin with.

You mention sideboarding, but it's also worth pointing out that Seething Song actually made it harder to sideboard for Storm. Seething Song allowed Storm to run Epic Experiment instead of Pyromancer Ascension, making it significantly less vulnerable to graveyard hate.


Punishing Fire is also a mystery for me. People say that it would invalidate creature strategies. I don’t believe that is the case. In Modern each creature is already undergoing the “Bolt Test”, meaning that every creature with toughness below 4 has to be really efficient, have a value EtB trigger or something third. I don’t believe that spending 5 mana to kill a Wild Nactl or Kitchen Finks is too broken. This would help other creature strategies prevent Birthing Bod decks from out-valuing them and also help keep creature based combo decks (like Elves) and Planeswalkers in check.A mystery? Did you not see what the format was like when Punishing Fire was around? It's not for nothing that Zoo was like 28% of the field at Worlds before it got banned. Sadly, Wild Nacatl got misblamed for this and ended up on the banned list for a while until they finally realized that it was only Punishing Fire that was the problem, as shown by the fact that Zoo has not been that kind of a monster since.


Sword of the Meek is one of the cards on the current B&R list the the lowest powerlevel and I have a hard time seeing it warping Modern in any way. It might be used as wincon in some control builds or in a Tezzeret shell, but that’s it.This one is true.

Now as to Top and Second Sunrise:
First of all, I wanna make it clear that the reasoning behind the banning of these cards are BS.Sorry, but it's not "BS". They both are banned for very good reasons. Again, the fact you don't seem to understand these reasons shows your lack of familiarity with the format you're professing to know what's best for.

That said, Wizards of the Coast was not the greatest in their explanation for Sensei's Divining Top (seriously, copy/pasting the rationale for its Extended ban would have been better than what they said for its Modern ban). The problem isn't simply that it makes games take too long. The problem is that it does that and would see a whole lotta play. In Legacy, really only Miracles and 12-Post plays Top. In a format like Modern, it'd see far more play which would result in more problems. There's also the problem of its rather absurd level of power as well, which honestly I would say warrants banning regardless of timing problems.

Now for Second Sunrise:
First of all, I want to stress that the people forcing players to ‘play out’ their entire combo are entitled to do so, but my problem is with those who at the same time complain that rounds go to time. Like any other modern engine deck (Storm and Ascendancy) Eggs can easily be disrupted. Eggs are even disrupted by cards already in people’s sideboards like graveyard- and artifact hate.Okay, see, the problem here is that you're not actually interacting with the reason for why it was banned. You're right you can disrupt it with graveyard and artifact hate. The deck really wasn't overpowered; it was just a really good deck. But you're basically making an argument against something that wasn't the reason it was banned.

Eggs got itself banned because it made tournaments take hours longer. Hours. This was a serious problem for tournament logistics. It's not a matter of it being boring (though it was), it's a matter of the fact that tournaments were taking hours longer to finish up. That's a big problem. It wasn't even players who hate the greatest hate for the card (though there was hate from players); it was judges and tournament runners.

And Eggs wasn't a fringe deck like High Tide is in Legacy. It was, at the time of its banning, Tier 1 or at least Tier 1.5. A fringe deck spending a huge amount of time one particular turn isn't an issue, which is also why Eggs escaped a ban for a while and why High Tide isn't banned in Legacy. But when you have a deck that's good enough that a lot of people are playing that's like Eggs, you run into the aforementioned problems.

You reject the reason for it being banned as "BS" (with no real explanation) and then offer an argument that doesn't actually address the reason it was banned. Eggs was a serious problem for simple logistics purposes. There really isn't any need to bring it back.

Now, the first post was a bit more reasonable, but I do wish to respond to these:

The keen observer might have noticed that I not only removed cards from the B&R list, I also added one: Cranial Plating. My reasoning for banning Cranial Plating is that I feel that the Artifact Lands + Plating would be too good and I would rather get to play with and against the Artifact Lands since they could enable other strategies than affinity alone. I also feel that this card basically boils the affinity MU down to if the affinity player “has it or not”.Okay, this isn't really a great example of what I was talking about, but I did want to respond. I feel dubious about the necessity of this change. Affinity would be too good with artifact lands and cranial plating, but your reasoning seems poor. Cranial Plating doesn't boil the Affinity matchup down to whether they have it or not. They have other cards that are about as good, like Arcbound Ravager or Steel Overseer. In fact, I actually dread seeing Arcbound Ravager from Affinity more than I dread seeing Cranial Plating. Maybe i have a slanted perspective here because I play GR Tron (Oblivion Stone and Pyroclasm are effective answers to Cranial Plating but are far less impressive when it comes to Arcbound Ravager), but I don't think your claim on Cranial Plating is accurate.

The claim that other decks could run the artifact lands is a little more plausible, but I don't know if it'd necessarily be that much to their benefit, especially because they do have Darksteel Citadel.

This change just seems to be too much a case of a change for the sake of a change. Affinity is fine right now; we don't need to make a ban/unban swap to change anything in it.


The last card on the list is Ancestral Recal …ehm Treasure Cruise. Even though I am an advocate of raising the powerlevel of Modern, there has to be boundaries. And this card is just too good for Modern and it also helps keeping the Ascendancy deck in check.Why is Treasure Cruise "too good" for Modern? I can understand the argument it's too good right now--even if I don't necessarily agree--but it definitely wouldn't be with some of the kinda crazy bans you're advocating. The card's weaker than some of the cards you're advocating we remove from the banned list!

EDIT: This edit comes quite a bit after I wrote up the post, but something I realized: You are completely incorrect that the perfect turn 3 for 12-Post produces only 6 mana! It can also get 7 mana. Turn 1 Cloudpost, turn 2 Cloudpost, turn 3 Glimmerpost produces 7 mana.

[JDK]

My only complaint is that Burn is now a real deck in both Modern and Legacy. I hate burn. I really really hate burn and I will hate to play against you 100% of the time if you play burn – and fell free to quote me on that.


It is not unlikely to read posts like this “I want to ban [Card] because it is so boring and I hate playing against it“. This is a completely fair opinion to have and I can respect that people can have different views of what they believe is fun. But why should we negate one players fun for the sake of the other? Can’t we find space to embrace all kind of play styles/preferences? Apparently not, or at least it seems like that.

Quoted, as you asked for.

Now spare us the double standards. And let the shitty Miracle players (let's be honest, there are far too little good and fast players - go watch Einherjer) waste everyone's time with multiple Top activations in Legacy only.

[nedleeds]

Decent read, I don't necessarily agree though. Also we all agree mass unbannings aren't happening WotC just doesn't do it anymore, they peel one at a time. What you are proposing is to essentially try to bump the power level of the format up in one big jump with a pile of unbannings across archetypes.

Re: Jitte. Jitte can't be unbanned in the world of the new legend rule. I mean every deck with 12+ creatures would play 2-4 jitte. You really would have to think hard about ever tapping out if your creature wielding opponent would have 4 mana on their turn. Now the counter argument is that there are a bunch of 4 mana derp I win spells running around in modern now anyway, so why is 2 mana jitte 2 mana equip any worse? I'd argue ubiquity. Twin requires some other shitty cards. Scrapeshit requires some shitty lands and some ramp. Jitte would just get jammed in any deck intending to attack a few times to win the game.

[Lord Seth]

By the way, I found this (http://arcanisproject.com/articulos/entrevista-a-mark-rosewater) interesting. It's an interview with Mark Rosewater on a Spanish site, and he was asked about the Modern banned list. Here's the relevant portion:


¿Y la Banned list? La próxima lista sale el 21 de enero. ¿Veremos algún cambio?
Veremos, cada carta que está en esa lista desequilibra el formato hacia un claro arquetipo.

Bueno pero hoy en día, el DIG through time y el Cruise están dominado el formato ¿Habrá que hacer algo?
Nosotros queremos que la gente tenga las cartas para jugarlas, no queremos meter más cartas en el la lista. En un principio, nos gustaría ir sacando cartas poco a poco. Hay muchas cartas que ahora podrían combatir bien los cruises como "Cloudpost o BloodBraid elf".

I'm not fluent in Spanish, but I took enough years that I can attempt a probably overly literal translation:


And the banned list? The next list is released on January 21. Will we see any changes?
We'll see, each card that's on the list would balance the format towards a particular archetype.

Good but at the moment, Dig Through Time and Cruise are dominating the format. Will anything be done?
We want people who have cards to play with them, we don't want to put more cards to the list. At first, we would want to remove cards little by little. There are many cards that could now do well against the Cruises like Cloudpost or Bloodbraid Elf.

This must be taken with a grain of salt because Mark Rosewater has basically nothing to do with bannings or unbannings, but I'm sure he has an idea of what the people who make those decisions believe. Obviously the "we don't want to put more cards on the list" is the classic R&D double-talk where if they do ban cards they're free to go back and say "well we didn't want to, but we had to" so you can only put so much stock into the indication there won't be bans, but I did find it interesting that Bloodbraid Elf and Cloudpost were the examples chosen for cards to potentially unban.

[YamiJoey]

I swear to god if they unban cloudpost I will fucking kill somebody. I play Miracles in Legacy, Modern is my escape from that crap.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I swear to god if they unban cloudpost I will fucking kill somebody. I play Miracles in Legacy, Modern is my escape from that crap.

Gotta agree, aside from the homicide. Unless they print better nonbasic destruction in Modern we absolutely do not need to see 12-post's return. I'd be interested in a better Tec edge in the format, probably not to the power level of wasteland, but it really would topple the format as we know it. I'm fine with seeing neither, though.

[apple713]

I swear to god if they unban cloudpost I will fucking kill somebody. I play Miracles in Legacy, Modern is my escape from that crap.

if they unban cloud post in modern i might actually start playing modern. It won't be awesome though because we don't get crop rotation

[Megadeus]

Gotta agree, aside from the homicide. Unless they print better nonbasic destruction in Modern we absolutely do not need to see 12-post's return. I'd be interested in a better Tec edge in the format, probably not to the power level of wasteland, but it really would topple the format as we know it. I'm fine with seeing neither, though.

tectonic edge without the 4 land clause? Or maybe with like a serra avenger clause.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Remember when Modern had fun and challenging combo decks? I do. The first deck I built when the format was announced was Eggs. Wizards bans out long-turn combo decks like Eggs and Storm because it's "boring" for the guy on the other side of the table and makes tournaments take too long, then lets dumb crap like pod/twin pull off no-skill minimal-interaction wins on turn 4. Who cares about fun or interactivity when we could get the side event drafts started a few hours early?

Joke's on them, I'm sleeving up KCI and Relic Quest now.

[JDK]

Remember when Modern had fun and challenging combo decks? I do. The first deck I built when the format was announced was Eggs. Wizards bans out long-turn combo decks like Eggs and Storm because it's "boring" for the guy on the other side of the table and makes tournaments take too long, then lets dumb crap like pod/twin pull off no-skill minimal-interaction wins on turn 4. Who cares about fun or interactivity when we could get the side event drafts started a few hours early?

Joke's on them, I'm sleeving up KCI and Relic Quest now.
By "fun" and "challenging" you mean Shoal Infect and Ponder Twin? :eyebrow:

Storm is still playable and Combo-Twin has been on the fence since Tempo-/Control-Twin took over a long time ago. Where exactly was Eggs anywhere close to "interactive"? I played it myself, and I don't claim it to be "interactive" or really skill-intense. You also seem to be heavily misinformed on the reasoning for the bans you speak of. Eggs was banned because the long turns delayed the tournaments to a degree where it was not bearable. Storm was too consistent in their turn 3 kills.

Anyway, every format has "dumb" strategies and combos. Talk about SnT, Reanimator, Dredge, Oath, Flash or whatever.

[Dark Ritual]

Seething song didn't really grant consistent turn 3 kills. Sure you *could* turn 3 them but that's way different than you would do it consistently. To turn 3 in storm you needed your opponent to not interact with you in any way too like electromancer dying usually made it damn hard to turn 3 and ascension is pretty hard to turn 3 with short of a stacked hand involving 3 probes/manamorphoses to trigger ascension or 2 probes/morphose + another cantrip that is already present in the yard. They banned seething song because it took up too large of a metagame chunk online, but that was just the result of WotC failing to make the format more accessible/storm was and still is one of the cheapest decks online for modern.

[JDK]

Goblin E. made Storm and Seething Song in particular insanely good and we all know Wizards doesn't like to ban new cards.

[iGrok]

Goblin E. made Storm and Seething Song in particular insanely good and we all know Wizards doesn't like to ban new cards.

God this is so true. Its the reason Cruise won't be banned, its the reason DRS wasn't banned - can't ban something that's still being opened.

[Lord Seth]

It's hard to justify a Treasure Cruise ban (at least by itself) when the actual top deck right now, Junk Pod, doesn't even play the card.

[Kathal]

I think, that nothing will happen this B&R announcement since Wizard hates to ban new cards and both URx Delver and Pod (which shared 40% of the the day 2 metagame at the GP Ohama) to get the powerlevel of those decks down (Swiftspear and Cruise in Delver and Rhino in Pod). I think, it is more likely that some cards come of the list, e.g. Blood Braid Elf, GGT, AV and Sword of the Meek. AV is for the Conrol decks, Sword for Tezzerator or even for Control decks (although it needs to much slots, to get it reliable) and the first 2 were just mistakes (DRS was the real problem not BBE and GGT has no impact on modern, it is like Land Tax in Legacy).

Greetings,
Kathal

[Richard Cheese]

Or they could just ban Cruise, Pod, and DTT. So much for that new cards theory.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Oh holy crap I might actually play this format again. I've been complaining about Pod being the absolute best choice over everything else for at least a year now and it's finally gone. Having instawin combos without really paying for it was just better than every other option. Dig Through Time was probably fine but in a slower format I get where it might be a problem since everyone could find UU without really trying, unlike in Legacy.

Back to 4c Gifts Control, I think.

[Spam]

In my opinion, they just wanted to reduce the power level of the field... Now that Pod, cruise and Dig are gone I'm really curious of the direction that Modern will take.