Modern Banned List [Archive] - Page 4

Mr. Safety

01-19-2015, 08:54 PM

I think one of of the reasons I like a pod ban is because it is always fucking EVERYWHERE. I'm tired of seeing lists of pod deck after pod deck in top 16s. Yes it is a good deck, albeit a little too resilient for my tastes. Overpowered is debatable, I'm not sure that's why it was banned (if I interpret the announcement correctly.) It just pushed aggro out of the meta too far (zoo, affinity, etc.) I have noticed a sharp decline of both Tron and robots, two strong pillars of modern. I think both would help to balance out the format again post delve bans. Pod being gone is a relief, not because it was overpowered (opinion) it just took up too much space. Its like a good song that became annoying because the radio station played it 100 times a day.

Edit: regarding siege rhino.meta, I expect to see a ton more blood moons (which also happens to hurt ascendancy, scapeshift, and any other 3+ color deck)

Phoenix Ignition

01-20-2015, 12:57 PM

EluThingol

01-20-2015, 02:10 PM

The difference between Siege Rhino meta and Pod Meta is that SR meta can get wrath of godded and not make the opponent laugh when he gets back 2x kitchen finks, 1x Voice of Resurgence Token, and a Murderous Redcap. Control just wasn't able to do its thing with all of the creature recursion, and now that those cards aren't part of a combo that capitalizes on recursion we'll see much less of them.

I really think people are underestimating how much of the format Pod shut out. Now that Supreme Verdict can be played we may see a gigantic shift in playable decks.

It's true across formats. People have a harder time thinking about the things that aren't happening because a particular card is limiting the range of playable options. That was always the problem with TC in the eternal formats. It isn't strictly a question of how many decks are playing the card, and it's not strictly a question of how powerful the card is, considered in a vacuum. It's also about how many decks/cards were no longer seeing play because of it. No more Jund, no more no more attrition strategies, no Wastelands, no BUG decks of any kind--hell, even DRS couldn't find a good home outside of Elves, and it's arguably the best 1-drop creature ever printed. Sure, you can always see the new builds that are coming along (like the stupidly awkward RUG builds that would percolate to the surface occasionally), but only Ascendancy was arguably even new, while half a dozen other decks and some of the best cards in the format were just shoved out of the meta for as long as that thing was around. So it's what you weren't seeing that was the real problem.

In the case of Pod in Modern, there was basically no reason to build a creature shell since nothing you did with them would be as good as what Pod was doing with its creatures (which were really just functioning like spells with P/T). Add Cruise to the mix and suddenly, you can't run attrition strategies either, and control just doesn't work against the field at all. Nobody wanted another PT that was dominated by Pod decks, and if they weren't careful they could have had just another Pod/Twin/Affinity stream that you could have watched a year ago without seeing any real difference. So banning the Delve cards wasn't ever going to be enough on its own. Pod had to go so that other kinds of creature decks could find some breathing room and so that removal would actual work for control decks.

For those complaining that the whole format will be Siege Rhino, I'd say let's wait and see. I honestly don't see how that's a lot worse than every third deck being yet another Pod deck. We've watched that move before. Many, many, many times. For years on end now. It's a little rich to start complaining that the format is going to be the same thing over and over, since you've gotten to abuse the same degenerate tutor effect over...and over...and over, ever since Modern has been in existence. You should consider the possibility that Modern has an extremely rich card pool with tremendous potential for brewing and innovation. The next few months are probably going to be the most exciting it's ever been, unless I miss my guess.

MrShine

01-20-2015, 05:07 PM

I appreciate your optimism Elu!

I can definitely see Zoo coming back as a viable option, as well as an expansion of what's possible in the UWR range, from 'tempo' to control. Pheonix, you make a good point about Supreme Verdict.

It just sucks that they are approaching this in a way where they cut down the best performers instead of trying to balance via unbans. People are getting locked out of the decks they want to play via bannings, which is harsh and different than a deck being/becoming unplayable because a shifting meta makes it suck.

I've got some brews up my sleeve though so I'm also eager to see how things shake out!

Valtrix

01-20-2015, 05:29 PM

I don't think they could get away with unbans to fix anything. Pod is basically the best creature strategy, always. There are very few cards that will help non-pod (creature) decks without just helping pod as well, which is a problem. Bloodbraid elf may have been one of them, but I think it's a somewhat dangerous area to be in.

Treasure Cruise just doesn't make sense -- It gives tempo non-attrition decks to get (arguably) the best attrition card for almost no investment. This means that the decks that should beat these tempo decks, e.g. attrition ones can't actually compete very well. A single Cruise is very powerful, but double cruise is just so insane for a lot of decks to compete with. Again, this is an area where I don't think unbans will really help--cruise is just so much better at an attrition war than the options modern has available. This is not the only problem though. In addition to draw three just being one of the absolute best type of cards to win attrition wars, cruise gives the player casting it resources so much earlier in the game (and at a much reduced cost) than another other option available. Spending your 5th turn and all mana to cast Jace's Ingenuity (not that this card is what would compete with cruise) versus paying 1 on your 4th turn for treasure cruise is a world of difference.

This "analysis" is quite limited of course, but I think is a huge indicator of why these cards had to go instead of just unbanning cards to fix the problem.

Mr. Safety

01-20-2015, 08:21 PM

Pod was modern's sotf, and I remember how I would play every other match against survival at one point in time. Boring.

I am really excited to see what happens. Will zoo be good again? Will faeries become better? Are there decks that can enter the format that will make some waves? Time will tell and I'm looking forward to it.

Phoenix Ignition

01-20-2015, 09:20 PM

It just sucks that they are approaching this in a way where they cut down the best performers instead of trying to balance via unbans. People are getting locked out of the decks they want to play via bannings, which is harsh and different than a deck being/becoming unplayable because a shifting meta makes it suck.

This just doesn't work. What are they going to do, unban Stoneforge Mystic and then everyone plays that? Some cards are just so good you can't omit them from decks in good conscience. It's logical that some cards are just too good at what they do and therefore would either take over the format or need to be banned. Unbanning others wouldn't help balance the format unless all you want is Pod vs. Cloudpost vs. UR combo.

One of the biggest problems in Modern is that manabases can be so greedy without solid punishment since stuff like Pod can play under BloodMoon just fine and therefore incorporate all of the best cards without even trying. Bloodbraid would go into Pod for more value if they weren't able to get Pod out, Deathrite Shaman would totally go into pod, Stoneforge Mystic is an easy choice for Pod.

Some things may be safe to unban, but some things would be overwhelming and other cards wouldn't be able to "balance" them.

cherub_daemon

01-20-2015, 09:41 PM

God this is so true. Its the reason Cruise won't be banned, its the reason DRS wasn't banned - can't ban something that's still being opened.

At the risk of sounding overly cynical, I feel like this rule might still be in play. Cruise was common, so it wasn't moving product.

Phoenix Ignition

01-20-2015, 09:46 PM

I feel the obvious "What about Dig Through Time" retort coming. It's rare, in the same set.

MrShine

01-20-2015, 11:14 PM

... What are they going to do, unban Stoneforge Mystic and then everyone plays that?

Totally ;) I would play the shit out of Pod ft SFM. Hell, I'll play 4c and run JTMS too!

Treasure Cruise just doesn't make sense

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see Cruise go, that certainly has no business in Modern (Nor Legacy even). What I was alluding to is more akin to a major format overhaul - Ponder, Preordain, SFM, Jace, (Troll), DRS, BBE, P Fires, GSZ, Sword of the Meek... at LEAST - but ofc its just a pipedream :(

And FWIW everyone I have slept on it and come to accept Pod's time in the sun is gone. I'll just look back on it with longing much like Survival (Pre-Vengevine, mind you) while I get jiggy with Geist + Monastery Mentor.

01-21-2015, 07:38 AM

Despite most of our play group being butt-hurt by the ban announcement, looks like they still want to run a Modern FNM next month.

I haven't played Modern in probably 6 months or so, the last time I played Cruel Control (I actually really liked the deck).

Question is, what deck do you think Pod was holding down the most?

Quasim0ff

01-21-2015, 08:53 AM

01-21-2015, 09:06 AM

BGx.

As in: Lily, Goyf, Decay and Siege Rhino.

I really didn't want to play Siege Rhino, but I guess I have to. I really don't want to buy a 4th one.

Also, is this a real deck?

1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
3 Snapcaster Mage

1 Dismember
2 Dig Through Time
2 Dimir Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Sultai Charm
3 Mana Leak
3 Shadow of Doubt
3 Spell Snare
3 Voidslime
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Black Sun's Zenith

3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta

Sideboard
1 Spellskite
1 Thragtusk
1 Damnation
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Last Word
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Memoricide
3 Rain of Tears
2 Feed the Clan

I know Dig is gone, but BUG appeals to me more than just slinging Rhinos at people.

Quasim0ff

01-21-2015, 12:37 PM

I really didn't want to play Siege Rhino, but I guess I have to. I really don't want to buy a 4th one.

Also, is this a real deck?

1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
3 Snapcaster Mage

1 Dismember
2 Dig Through Time
2 Dimir Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Sultai Charm
3 Mana Leak
3 Shadow of Doubt
3 Spell Snare
3 Voidslime
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Black Sun's Zenith

3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta

Sideboard
1 Spellskite
1 Thragtusk
1 Damnation
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Last Word
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Memoricide
3 Rain of Tears
2 Feed the Clan

I know Dig is gone, but BUG appeals to me more than just slinging Rhinos at people.
I think Voidslime isn't playable - at all. The only application I can see for it, is vs Twin, which you should be a massive favorite already, due to decay, Dimir Charm, Mana Leak etc.

BUG Without Goyf isn't playable, imo.

01-21-2015, 12:43 PM

I think Voidslime isn't playable - at all. The only application I can see for it, is vs Twin, which you should be a massive favorite already, due to decay, Dimir Charm, Mana Leak etc.

BUG Without Goyf isn't playable, imo.

Yeah, I mean, I don't get it. I was thinking of trying a similar deck, except making the Voidslimes in to Cryptic Commands and squeezing in Goyfs. I should just make a thread, haha

Quasim0ff

01-21-2015, 12:54 PM

Yeah, I mean, I don't get it. I was thinking of trying a similar deck, except making the Voidslimes in to Cryptic Commands and squeezing in Goyfs. I should just make a thread, haha
I think making a "Shardless BUG" list could be functional - ie a list with very strong midgame applications, and focusing on "just" bug good-stuff - Goyf, Cryptic, Thoughtseize, Liliana etc.

Dimir Charm seems really strong.

Mr. Safety

01-21-2015, 02:46 PM

Gifts is mostly a big deck, the white is only for unburial rites, sometimes path, and a singleton lingering souls.

As far as bug good stuff goes, I've tried several versions. The one I liked most played a small creature suite (goyf, snap, clique) and played more of a mid-range role. I wanted to play stuff like Far//Away and Garruk Relentless. I never seemed to find a good groove with the deck. Maybe Sultai Charm is a decent gap-filler, it does everything you want just none of it efficiently. I would start here:

4x goyf
4x snapcaster
2x clique
3x scavenging ooze

4x thoughtseize
4x abrupt decay
2x spell snare
4x cryptic command
2x sultai charm
1x far//away
1x garruk relentless
3x liliana
1x maelstrom pulse
25 lands (tar pit, 7-8 fetch, 4-5 shock, 5 basics, treetop, tec edge)

Spam

02-11-2015, 06:09 PM

Thoughts after the Fate reforged pro tour? We have only seen 5000 BGx decks, and some other cards laying around.
Joke aside I do think that it's a huge presence and wizard might take a closer look into it.
And I've never seen people so worried about Summer Bloom (Hive mind or whatever); personally I do like the deck and I have played it for some time now, but I do also think that Wizard doesn't like it, for sure.

Phoenix Ignition

02-11-2015, 08:50 PM

The pro tour has never been a place to look for innovation of new decks. 3x BGW, 2x Twin, 1x Amulet, 2x burn really doesn't say much. We knew those colors were good, but I remember seeing something around 3/8 players were playing BGW, so it's no surprise to see that many in top 8.

Either way, pros like to stay in their comfort zones for the PT, so I don't expect anything but an echo chamber from it.

Phoenix Ignition

08-28-2015, 08:11 PM

I'm curious, does anyone think anything should happen with the banned list as of right now?

I usually am pro shaking up formats, but right now I don't think that anything needs to change in the format (which is a first). Maybe an unban or two would be interesting, but I think that the format diversity and "funness" (terrible metric, yeah I know) are really good right now.

So what does everyone else think? Did they finally get to a stable area in Modern?

Lord Seth

08-29-2015, 03:06 AM

I currently find it very hard to justify Sword of the Meek being on the banned list.

Jamaican Zombie Legend

08-29-2015, 04:25 AM

I threw a lot of crap Wizard's way with the way they banned things in Modern like crazy but, at least right now, it seems to have worked well enough. I'm able to step into a format that is wide-open, far from solved, and really interesting. It's hard to really identify any cards that are dominate or throw a wrench in the metagame's gears.

It would be pretty hard to justify putting anything else on the banned list at this point in time. Uh...good job Wizards?

Kathal

08-29-2015, 06:48 AM

As long as the Modern Metagame stays like it is now, nothing will happen (although, it makes me really sad to see Seething Song, Sword, BBE and Visions banned). The Modern metagame right now is so diverse, you can play nearly everything (from hyper aggro to Control, from Midrange to Combo, I mean, you can even play a Prison deck right now). Furthermore, as long as no deck violates the rules of Modern (mainly, having not a to big metagame share (like Pod, UR Delver, Storm, Jund,...), violates the turn 4 rule (keep in mind, it has to be a Tier 1 deck) and result in no time problem (like Eggs)), nothing will get banned/come of the banned list. Only when the metagame is really stale something comes from the list (like they did with Valakut) or something gets banned (basically as a compensation).

Greetings,
Kathal

Phoenix Ignition

08-29-2015, 12:34 PM

Sword of the Meek would be interesting. I don't really see a problem happening with it since the hyper aggressive decks could blow by you before it really got set up, but it might just fit into some weird version of a tier 1 and I'm not seeing it coming.

How about Chrome Mox? I would love to see this card for some of the terrible home brews I've made, but would this be a disaster for a current tier 1 deck running with it? I don't think Affinity could get away with it for lack of non-artifacts... would it make Twin automatically a turn faster though?

Lord Seth

08-29-2015, 01:01 PM

Only when the metagame is really stale something comes from the list (like they did with Valakut) or something gets banned (basically as a compensation).I don't think stale metagame has anything to do with it. Every single time they've unbanned something in Modern it was in the banning announcement immediately preceding the Modern Pro Tour. I'm pretty confident the Pro Tour being imminent is significantly more of an impetus for unbanning than any idea of things being "stale" is.

Sword of the Meek would be interesting. I don't really see a problem happening with it since the hyper aggressive decks could blow by you before it really got set up, but it might just fit into some weird version of a tier 1 and I'm not seeing it coming.It's hard to imagine it being in any of the Tier 1 decks. The best deck for it seems to be Tezzeret Control, which is like Tier 3 right now. The combo itself doesn't seem to be any more powerful than Twin, worse in a number of ways, so I don't see it as an issue.

People argue it's bad for aggro, but I don't see how gaining life and getting a few creatures is more harmful to aggro than getting attacked by infinite 1/4s.

How about Chrome Mox? I would love to see this card for some of the terrible home brews I've made, but would this be a disaster for a current tier 1 deck running with it? I don't think Affinity could get away with it for lack of non-artifacts... would it make Twin automatically a turn faster though?Unlikely to ever unban it due to fears of it breaking the turn 4 rule, even though I'm not sure any of the fast combo decks would even play it. It actually seems to work better in control decks.

Mr. Safety

08-29-2015, 05:05 PM

My thoughts:

1) Unban sword of the meek. Its weaker than twin combo (doesn't win on the spot), maindeck k-command everywhere, and overlapping hate is prevalent in sideboards (affinity.) Its also weak to scavenging ooze and other hate.

2) Unban ancestral visions. Its a morbidly slow card advantage tool that does however povide a niche way for blue decks to actually compete with cards like collected company and liliana. Without shardless agent there are no good cascade spells to enable broken plays. I feel that bloodbraid elf could potentially enable a good interaction here, but at 4 mana it isn't going to break any of moderns speed limits.

Phoenix Ignition

08-29-2015, 05:31 PM

I don't think stale metagame has anything to do with it. Every single time they've unbanned something in Modern it was in the banning announcement immediately preceding the Modern Pro Tour. I'm pretty confident the Pro Tour being imminent is significantly more of an impetus for unbanning than any idea of things being "stale" is.
Also I think I remember hearing from some WotC higher up employee that they like to do this because the Pro Tour is the place with the most incentive for people to break things. If they unban something that could be broken they expect to find it during the pro tour, even though it's suspect whether or not knowing about a problem helps them since the next ban period is still some months away.

People argue it's bad for aggro, but I don't see how gaining life and getting a few creatures is more harmful to aggro than getting attacked by infinite 1/4s.
This, and right now aggro decks are more than just 1-2 creature per turn decks. They generally play Collected Company or have other ways to speed themselves up/slow you down such that 1 life and a 1/1 isn't scary unless the control deck were successfully able to control for the first few turns.

Unlikely to ever unban it due to fears of it breaking the turn 4 rule, even though I'm not sure any of the fast combo decks would even play it. It actually seems to work better in control decks.
Yeah I'm basically worried it would just make Twin that much better. I really want to play it in non-combo style decks, but it might be one of those cards that fits into a lot of current decks and therefore just speeds up most of the format. Turn 2 Blood Moons or turn 1 Thalias could make things pretty interesting.

2) Unban ancestral visions. Its a morbidly slow card advantage tool that does however povide a niche way for blue decks to actually compete with cards like collected company and liliana. Without shardless agent there are no good cascade spells to enable broken plays. I feel that bloodbraid elf could potentially enable a good interaction here, but at 4 mana it isn't going to break any of moderns speed limits.
BBE is banned, but Ancestral still might be one of those cards that on its own isn't broken but reaches a critical mass. They did a great job by banning Ponder and Preordain to make sure blue wasn't this ultra-consistent cantrip shell that had to go in any deck unless you liked losing to bad draws (But that doesn't happen to formats, right guys????). Arguments could be made that Ponder or Preordain aren't really all that powerful too, but I really like the amount of card draw available right now. Blue cantrips are good enough that a lot of decks play them, but not so good that you basically lose without it.

Mr. Safety

08-29-2015, 07:54 PM

Yeah, I know bloodbraid is banned. I was just describing the one potential way visions might be too good. I kind of feel that bloodbraid can come off the list too, but I'm not positive. Jund is still going strong and co-co decks may abuse it as another four mana card advantage engine.

duhwhat

09-05-2015, 11:12 PM

I currently find it very hard to justify Sword of the Meek being on the banned list.

What made it the big bad monster? Tokens can use it, but it does not seem all that powerful. Maybe it was big when I was on hiatus from Magic.

Lord Seth

09-05-2015, 11:41 PM

What made it the big bad monster? Tokens can use it, but it does not seem all that powerful. Maybe it was big when I was on hiatus from Magic.ThopterSword was a monster deck in Extended, especially when it became ThopterDepths by adding the HexDepths combo into it (ThopterSword and HexDepths were originally separate decks, but someone hit upon the idea of combining them into one).

EpicLevelCommoner

10-28-2015, 08:03 AM

JACO

10-30-2015, 05:13 PM

ThopterSword was a monster deck in Extended, especially when it became ThopterDepths by adding the HexDepths combo into it (ThopterSword and HexDepths were originally separate decks, but someone hit upon the idea of combining them into one).
ThopterSword was not only dynamic in the older Extended format (which was "broken" by Modern standards), but the reason it continues to populate the Banned List in Modern is because it would probably invalidate a lot of other aggro decks, and is very splashable given the color requirements. It is potentially oppressive (see the reason and logic given for Deathrite Shaman's banning). Kolaghan's Command is certainly a great card, but a lot of the decks that would play Kolaghan's Command (outside of Jund) would also not mind playing ThopterSword, because it is just awesome and essentially on color in all Grixis shells. Academy Ruins is also very good at ignoring hate cards like Ancient Grudge, because even if the combo is broken up, it is very easy to reassemble.

Meekrab

11-04-2015, 01:50 PM

Regarding Sword of the Meek, the problem with it is not the synergy between it and Thopter Foundry, but the use of both with either Time Sieve or Krark-Clan Ironworks to go infinite.

Having said that, this combo is comparable to Abzan Company (including susceptibility to a well-timed Scavenging Ooze activation) and thus I do not believe it would hurt the format unless Tezzeret 2.0 became the new Jace 2.0 for this deck alone.
I don't think a three card infinite combo is "the problem" with any card on the banned list, since Twin and the Melira combo are considered "fine" and you can play 8 copies of both pieces of those combos if you want.

I think WotC simply doesn't want to deal with the headache of unbanning cards and then having to re-ban them when/if they prove to actually be a problem for the format.

EpicLevelCommoner

11-06-2015, 07:35 AM

I don't think a three card infinite combo is "the problem" with any card on the banned list, since Twin and the Melira combo are considered "fine" and you can play 8 copies of both pieces of those combos if you want.

I think WotC simply doesn't want to deal with the headache of unbanning cards and then having to re-ban them when/if they prove to actually be a problem for the format.

First, I shouldve said, 'the only possible problem': like I suggested the Abzan Company Combo is basically like ThopterSword.

Second, I doubt WotC actually knows what they are doing concerning the Modern Banlist: a few cards have gone on and off the list already.

Whitefaces

11-06-2015, 08:17 AM

Second, I doubt WotC actually knows what they are doing concerning the Modern Banlist: a few cards have gone on and off the list already.

Of course they know what they are doing. Modern is in a great spot, there are so many viable archetypes and nothing is overly oppressive. Bloom Titan and Griseoalbrand are slight problems due to 'non-games', but apart from that I'm really enjoying the format at the moment.

Phoenix Ignition

11-06-2015, 11:35 AM

Of course they know what they are doing. Modern is in a great spot, there are so many viable archetypes and nothing is overly oppressive. Bloom Titan and Griseoalbrand are slight problems due to 'non-games', but apart from that I'm really enjoying the format at the moment.

Same. The two decks mentioned are really annoying when they beat you on turn 2, but it's so infrequent that unless they're cheating the exact cards they need into their hand it doesn't happen often enough to really matter. I would be fine with seeing something like Summoner's Pact banned seeing as the only decks it will ever be used in are, "oops I win" combos, but the format as a whole is in an awesome place right now.

Lord Seth

11-06-2015, 09:01 PM

Same. The two decks mentioned are really annoying when they beat you on turn 2, but it's so infrequent that unless they're cheating the exact cards they need into their hand it doesn't happen often enough to really matter. I would be fine with seeing something like Summoner's Pact banned seeing as the only decks it will ever be used in are, "oops I win" combos, but the format as a whole is in an awesome place right now.That's not really true about Summoner's Pact. Sure, it is played almost exclusively in Bloom Titan (it's seen a small amount of play in Elves and Scapeshift), but I can see it as seeing play in some kind of toolbox deck maybe.

If you want to get rid of the card that's actually only going to be used in "oops I win" combos, then take out Pact of Negation.

Phoenix Ignition

11-07-2015, 12:08 AM

That's not really true about Summoner's Pact. Sure, it is played almost exclusively in Bloom Titan (it's seen a small amount of play in Elves and Scapeshift), but I can see it as seeing play in some kind of toolbox deck maybe.

If you want to get rid of the card that's actually only going to be used in "oops I win" combos, then take out Pact of Negation.

It also saw some play last weekend in a Protean Hulk combo deck (similar to the griselbanned deck on here, just using Protean Hulk and Body Double with Reveillark to combo out. Also substituted Goryo's Vengeance with Footsteps of the Goryo)

Mr. Safety

11-09-2015, 07:16 PM

Same. The two decks mentioned are really annoying when they beat you on turn 2, but it's so infrequent that unless they're cheating the exact cards they need into their hand it doesn't happen often enough to really matter. I would be fine with seeing something like Summoner's Pact banned seeing as the only decks it will ever be used in are, "oops I win" combos, but the format as a whole is in an awesome place right now.

I really like this post. Modern has really developed some depth over the past year (goofy cruise/dig era aside.) It seems really fresh to see grixis finally doing well alongside the formats pillars (robots, twin, tron, jund, etc.) Its also really cool to see collected company make a splash and zoo is a contender again. I'm not even sure I dislike the bloom titan/grishoalbrand decks breaking the fundamental turn that was established.

Meekrab

12-13-2015, 08:33 PM

Second, I doubt WotC actually knows what they are doing concerning the Modern Banlist: a few cards have gone on and off the list already.
As far as I can tell, the only things that have been unbanned were cards on the original ban list and Wild Nacatl, which was banned in 2011 before Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, and Liliana of the Veil started showing up in tournament results and completely reshaped the format.

I think they're doing fine, the format is probably more diverse than Legacy at this point.

MaximumC

01-17-2016, 02:41 PM

As far as I can tell, the only things that have been unbanned were cards on the original ban list and Wild Nacatl, which was banned in 2011 before Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, and Liliana of the Veil started showing up in tournament results and completely reshaped the format.

I think they're doing fine, the format is probably more diverse than Legacy at this point.

Kinda? I mean, they're certainly axing every combo that wins by turn 3. But, then they hit Pod and Twin not because they violate this rule, but because they're too consistently in the top 8. It's never going to be Legacy if they keep smashing up the interesting combo decks like this.

I keep thinking about dipping my toe into Modern, since Vintage and Legacy are on the wane in Denver, but then this kind of thing happens and I just LOL my way out of it again.

Chatto

01-17-2016, 02:56 PM

I had the same idea: let's try Modern, and then they ban cards, killing interesting decks in the process. So yeah, no Modern for me. EDIT: except Burn, because well I almost have all the cards already.

sjmcc13

01-17-2016, 04:13 PM

I mean, they're certainly axing every combo that wins by turn 3. Yet Burn, Affinity and Infect are all capable of winning on turn 3 and not looked at.
I am really getting curious as to the stats (% for each turn #) of when each major deck in modern can goldfish a win (counting locking up the game to the point where they have won but the game is not technically over).

MaximumC

01-17-2016, 05:27 PM

Yet Burn, Affinity and Infect are all capable of winning on turn 3 and not looked at.
I am really getting curious as to the stats (% for each turn #) of when each major deck in modern can goldfish a win (counting locking up the game to the point where they have won but the game is not technically over).

Ah, but they're not "combo" decks. Maybe!

Lord Seth

01-17-2016, 06:27 PM

Yet Burn, Affinity and Infect are all capable of winning on turn 3 and not looked at. Burn and Affinity are capable of winning on turn 3 but it's pretty rare. While Wizards of the Coast has never exactly defined what "consistently" means (as that's the criteria for a deck to get banned, if it "consistently" wins before turn 4 and is competitively viable), it's hard to imagine that Affinity and Burn qualify. Infect appears to get a pass both because the deck is vulnerable to common maindeck cards and also because it never manages to stay Tier 1 for long.

I am really getting curious as to the stats (% for each turn #) of when each major deck in modern can goldfish a win (counting locking up the game to the point where they have won but the game is not technically over).I'm not sure how you could figure that out. The problem is that "locking up the game to the point where they have won but the game is not technically over" depends heavily on what they're playing against. Plays that will "lock up the game" against some decks do nothing of the sort against other decks. For example, casting Ugin against something like Bogles is basically Game Over, but Affinity just sort of laughs at it.

MaximumC

01-17-2016, 06:32 PM

Burn and Affinity are capable of winning on turn 3 but it's pretty rare. While Wizards of the Coast has never exactly defined what "consistently" means (as that's the criteria for a deck to get banned, if it "consistently" wins before turn 4 and is competitively viable), it's hard to imagine that Affinity and Burn qualify. Infect appears to get a pass both because the deck is vulnerable to common maindeck cards and also because it never manages to stay Tier 1 for long.

Infect didn't get a pass; the version using Blazing Shoal generated some of the format's first bannings. :)

Lord Seth

01-17-2016, 06:35 PM

Infect didn't get a pass; the version using Blazing Shoal generated some of the format's first bannings. :)We're talking about current Infect decks. And honestly, Shoal Infect is so different from the ones we have now that you can't even count Blazing Shoal's as a nerf on Infect. One might as well say that Cloudpost ban was a nerf on Tron decks.

MGB

01-17-2016, 10:15 PM

The difference is that Affinity and Infect completely fold to targeted hate if opponents really want to beat them.

Splinter Twin was a blue deck that could win through hate by using generically good blue answers.

Wizards policy has been that if a deck is fast and powerful, it can't also be resilient to targeted hate.

JPoJohnson

01-17-2016, 11:49 PM

This is the second time I've lost a deck to WotC deciding that a deck that didn't violate any actual rules didn't fit into their perfect child of a format (Eggs and then Twin).

I'm not going to build any modern specific decks anymore. I'll have things like slivers and merfolk that are spill overs from Legacy decks I have sitting around, but I'm not going to build things like Tron or affinity. WotC has made it clear that they are too distanced from the players in this format I think.

Dice_Box

01-18-2016, 12:10 AM

JPoJohnson

01-18-2016, 12:14 AM

The issue with this ban was that no one asked for it. Eggs took a hit and that bothered few, DRS as well. Pod people saw coming but Twin, it followed all the rules and caused none of the issues Eggs did. It was seen as a safe deck because it never crossed that line in the sand. Now it apears you don't have to cross that line to matter.

Sad really.

Exactly. I know quite a few people that have sold out of the format. There are those that sell out because their favourite deck was just barely banned and others that are simply worried their deck (affinity/tron/eldrazi) is going to get banned in some way and they don't want to lose their investment.

Either way, they did a great job of making people scared of losing their decks which is causing less interest in the format.

Spam

01-18-2016, 09:10 AM

Sounds sad, but Twin got banned for a simple reason: the Pro Tour.
This is how they can make rotate a non rotating format; Twin was fine, I guess, but banning it will open more windows for new decks and new cards from the latest set.
It's just extended 2.0 (we change when whe want)

Richard Cheese

01-18-2016, 01:46 PM

I'm totally ignorant about Modern, so apologies if this is way off-base, but I thought WotC's intentions for Modern from the very beginning were to be very aggressive with the banned list, and essentially ban the "best deck" from time to time.

If that's true, I guess the question is how you define the best deck. Goldfish said Twin was something like 9% of the field, which honestly doesn't seem that bad. Certainly seems shitty if you've invested a bunch of time and money into a Tier-1 strategy, but kinda nice if you're more into brewing or playing on a budget.

iatee

01-18-2016, 01:57 PM

I don't think anyone would argue w/ Jund being the best deck when they banned DRS or Pod+Delver being the two best decks when they banned Pod+TC/DTT.

Combined Twin variants might have been the most played deck by some small margin, but I don't think 'Twin is the best deck in modern' is a statement that a majority of Modern players woulda agreed with a week ago. Which is why this was kinda shocking.

swoop

01-18-2016, 02:34 PM

I think it was banned because you could put Exarch + twin in any UR deck combination and have it as alt win condition. Or main. It was destroying the format diversity

Admiral_Arzar

01-18-2016, 03:15 PM

I think it was banned because you could put Exarch + twin in any UR deck combination and have it as alt win condition. Or main. It was destroying the format diversity

Yup, this is it. There just wasn't any real reason to play a blue deck that wasn't Twin because Twin was always better.

Valtrix

01-18-2016, 03:46 PM

I would have been okay with a Jace unban if they decided to ban Twin. Big mana decks are going to be a big player in the format for awhile (Eldrazi, Tron)

Phoenix Ignition

01-18-2016, 03:47 PM

Finally some people who actually read their statement.

I agree Twin wasn't necessary to ban, but as WotC said about it, it basically turned Urb, Urw, Urg, and Ur decks into twin variants instead of being their own unique decks. Any shell that had those colors was better off just throwing in ~6-8 pestermite effects and 4 Splinter Twins because now all of a sudden you accidentally won the game on turn 4 since they all have similar cantrips.

Also mentioned was the fact that 95% of the cards in a Splinter Twin deck can go into any other deck now and you really won't lose that much value, so it's not like they didn't consider that option. Sure it sucks if that deck was the only reason you played modern, but overall I see this ban as a slightly good thing. After everyone figured out how you should play against Twin it's not like the deck was terribly enjoyable either way, but that could just be me.

Amulet bloom decks got what they deserved. I've had enough losing on turn 2 or beating a deck that doesn't even show up to the game, those options are equally fun. And yes, I'm one of those incorrect people who plays the game for fun.

Lord Seth

01-18-2016, 03:52 PM

Yup, this is it. There just wasn't any real reason to play a blue deck that wasn't Twin because Twin was always better.Just like how there was no reason to play an aggro deck that wasn't Zoo because Wild Nacatl was always better. How well did that logic work out?

This whole "Twin repressed other UR decks!" seems to be highly misunderstanding why Twin was seeing play rather than those. People weren't playing those non-Twin blue decks because they weren't as good as Twin; they weren't playing them because they generally weren't good period. It's the same thing as those non-Nacatl aggro decks. Sure, Affinity and Merfolk were a thing after the ban, but they were a thing before it too.

The reason Twin worked while the others didn't was largely because there were a lot of different decks and because there aren't really any good general catch-all answers in Blue (unlike Black, where you have Thoughtseize) they weren't that viable unless you wanted to play Sideboard Roulette. Twin provided the best answer to that by having a "catch-all" answer in the form of its combo.

It's also worth noticing that non-Twin blue decks were generally good matchups against Twin. So by banning Twin, you've taken out a good matchup for them and ensured that all of the various uninteractive decks that force Sideboard Roulette will be a larger part of the format. We're likely going to see a drop in non-Twin Blue decks after this announcement.

iatee

01-18-2016, 04:52 PM

Just like how there was no reason to play an aggro deck that wasn't Zoo because Wild Nacatl was always better. How well did that logic work out?

This whole "Twin repressed other UR decks!" seems to be highly misunderstanding why Twin was seeing play rather than those. People weren't playing those non-Twin blue decks because they weren't as good as Twin; they weren't playing them because they generally weren't good period. It's the same thing as those non-Nacatl aggro decks. Sure, Affinity and Merfolk were a thing after the ban, but they were a thing before it too.

The reason Twin worked while the others didn't was largely because there were a lot of different decks and because there aren't really any good general catch-all answers in Blue (unlike Black, where you have Thoughtseize) they weren't that viable unless you wanted to play Sideboard Roulette. Twin provided the best answer to that by having a "catch-all" answer in the form of its combo.

It's also worth noticing that non-Twin blue decks were generally good matchups against Twin. So by banning Twin, you've taken out a good matchup for them and ensured that all of the various uninteractive decks that force Sideboard Roulette will be a larger part of the format. We're likely going to see a drop in non-Twin Blue decks after this announcement.

Totally. Non-twin blue decks punished Twin decks g1 because the two decks were playing similar games, but one had clunky 1/4s and 4 mana enchantments, the other had lots of answers to the combo. I've played Grixis Delver for a while and Twin was probably my second best matchup after Infect. By getting rid of Twin you not only take away one of the great matchups for all Grixis decks, but you let loose a lot of non-interactive decks that Twin help keep in check with its 'bring some interaction or you'll lose t4' potential.

Nothing was stopping people from playing Esper Control or pure UWR control just cause 'Twin was better'. People have played these decks, they weren't consistent, and they're relatively worse now that the Twin-police is gone. There's no real payoff for playing blue control in Modern - the counterspells are very conditional, the only strong form of card advantage is Snapcaster, and the cantrips are pretty awful.

Jamaican Zombie Legend

01-18-2016, 05:22 PM

Agree with the above two posts — I don't see how a Twin banning opens up the field for alternative U/R/x shells. As said, most of these different U/R/x decks aren't played because Twin was better, they're not played because they aren't very good against the meta as a whole. Most reactive decks like U/R/W or Grixis Control struggle to battle against fast, linear decks and big mana strategies that are numerous in Modern. U/R/x Tempo decks aren't very good and just lost one of their better matchups being 11% of the field. I guess that leaves, uh, Scapeshift?

It's not like there are a ton of powerful, potential strategies waiting in the wings, post-Twin ban, for U/R/x in Modern.

swoop

01-18-2016, 05:53 PM

Dice_Box

01-18-2016, 07:17 PM

Alt urx shells weren't played because playing twin made them better.

Any urx was ultimately better with twin so why would you intentionality play a lesser deck if you decide to compete?

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Because this is not totally true. Grixis Control is in my eyes is more powerful then Grixis Twin in the longer grinding matches and some of the decks like Infect. The deck is one big card advantage engine with Jace, Snapcaster, Kolaghan's Command, Tasigur, Rise/Fall and Painful Truths. The actual Grixis Twin deck was know to play four targets and three Twin just to sure up some of the tougher matches while in my view just turning into a bad deck overall. It lost in the mirror and it lost to Control.

In a format where your best two Mana counters either give them back their card or are worthless in the late game, Blue control is really in a tough place. The best way to play control in Modern is though Black and Red and that's not Twin's fault. This is why you will see more decks like Grixis and less like Patroit in the control sphere.

Twin going is not going to suddenly change the fact that control still dies to Tron either.

rufus

01-19-2016, 10:39 AM

Alt urx shells weren't played because playing twin made them better.

Any urx was ultimately better with twin so why would you intentionality play a lesser deck if you decide to compete?

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Thing is, if you play URx you're also going to be playing a fetchland dual package. Heck, I'd be willing to wager that more URx decks had fetchland/duals main than ran splinter twin, and yet they don't seem to have any issue with those cards. "It was the best card to play" doesn't really justify a ban.

On some level, it would be funny if WotC officially made modern into the "get your card banned" format, and just put winning players' names next to the card on the ban list as part of the prize.

Holiday

01-19-2016, 12:22 PM

I apologize if this has been discussed I'm not super familiar with modern. Is it feasible for Twin decks just to run Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker instead? The drawbacks are he's a creature and he costs more than Spinter Twin. How much worse would Kiki-Jiki be in this deck?

HammerAndSickled

01-19-2016, 12:31 PM

Kiki-Jiki is significantly worse. One additional mana, triple R, makes the combo a turn slower at BEST and makes it harder to keep up countermagic because modern has no free counters that are playable. Also, one of the biggest strengths of Exarch-Twin was that it dodged a single lightning bolt, whereas Kiki+anything, they just kill your Kiki in response. Also being a turn slower opens it up to dying to various other things, like Kolaghan's Command, or just getting raced because nearly every other deck in the format wins t4. There is a "control" deck that plays restoration Angels and kiki that's probably better but the deck kinda sucked in the first place for the reasons I stated.

Octopusman

01-19-2016, 03:16 PM

I was considering getting into Modern because my girlfriend started playing Magic and it seemed like the more affordable option (compared to Legacy).

The Twin banning is having a chilling effect for me. I feel like it's arbitrary for them to decide that Twin is represented too much and therefore should be banned. I think Affinity had roughly the same representation and it goes unmentioned.

I don't feel comfortable buying into a format where they ban so subjectively. Writing this really helped me make up my mind. I think we'll go with Standard. If they reprint Force of Will and Wasteland, I expect revised blue duals to hit $500 due to increased interest so Legacy isn't really an option for her. There's a rumor they'll reprint some good Legacy cards, but that could cause the reserved list staples to become so expensive that either people will play crappy variants with budget cards or simply not play at all.

Another option is to get off of the internet and brew your own damn list. Play some Tier Infinite deck and tune it until it does well. Assuming you don't find some combo that is ban-worthy, it will likely not be represented enough to get banned. I wonder what it will take for people to brew more and netdeck less.

I feel sorry for everyone buying into Eldrazi right now for when the inevitable ban of Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple happens.

iatee

01-19-2016, 03:45 PM

If you bought a T1 Modern deck a year ago or 2 years ago it's hard to come up w/ a situation where you've lost much money. Whereas you play Standard competitively, you will spend a lot of money.

It sucks to have your deck banned from under you, but playing Standard competitively is the most guaranteed money suck of all.

Octopusman

01-19-2016, 04:23 PM

Deviruchi

01-19-2016, 04:31 PM

I was forced to try Modern because my city and surrounding areas (almost) abandoned Legacy format. I have to like a deck to play it and Twin was the only one in this format. Sure, I haven't lost much money. I don't even think that Twin was so favourite in the metagame. Banning because of Pro Tour seems so lame. Would rather see Goryo's Vengeance & Summer Bloom and more changes after the Pro Tour if needed.

swoop

01-19-2016, 04:46 PM

I bought living end w/o some lands i had and fulminators for 50€

Also, the poster that quoted me and talked about dual/fetch package and had tried to draw an argument, really? Lands vs. Win condition? Not even once.

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Havrekjex

01-20-2016, 06:54 AM

Yeah, hmmm. You're right. Damn this hobby! Best game ever and only reason I have to complain is the cost. I guess it could be worse.If you`re worried about future bans, pick a shell that won`t fall apart if one card gets banned. Splinter Twin was such a shell, virtually all the cards in those decks but Twin/Pestermite/Exarch are format staples that won`t drop in value, so that would have been a good choice. People will always play URx in some shape or form. GBx is also like that, and Zoo/Company decks. Affinity is middle of the road on this scale, because it can get nerfed pretty hard by a ban, but remain playable… I think. There`s no single card ban that can kill the deck afaik. Same with durrn… uh, Burn. GR Tron is probably the worst choice in this regard, as the deck will just die if one of its core pieces gets banned, and most of its cards aren`t played in a lot of other decks and will plummet, leaving you to build from scratch. B/x Eldrazi and Infect are also like that.

+1 on Modern being less of a money drain than Standard. No doubt.

swoop

01-20-2016, 11:31 AM

What about living end? :)

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Dice_Box

01-20-2016, 11:46 AM

What about living end? :)

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It depends on how the Eldrazi deck settles. Right now the deck is not one I would look at building thanks to the maindeck hate for Graves that is being employed by Eldrazi.

Havrekjex

01-28-2016, 05:55 AM

What about living end? :)

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using TapatalkIf you buy Living End, you have the cards to play... Living End. Almost no cards carry over to other decks, it`s basically Fulminator Mage and lands. On the other hand, it`s not too expensive, I guess.

swoop

01-28-2016, 09:07 AM

I already have it, minus Fulminator.

It's a fun and quite a competitive deck

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T-101

01-28-2016, 05:21 PM

Just an off-topic musing, but I wonder how many cards could come off the banned list tomorrow if Force of Will was miraculously in the format.

Spam

01-29-2016, 03:18 AM

Just an off-topic musing, but I wonder how many cards could come off the banned list tomorrow if Force of Will was miraculously in the format.
You mean: if only we where playing legacy?

sjmcc13

01-29-2016, 10:23 AM

Just an off-topic musing, but I wonder how many cards could come off the banned list tomorrow if Force of Will was miraculously in the format.Nothing because the green decks still can not handle them, and Wizards wants a high # of cdecks with no blue cards, as to many players see an island and 4 blue cards in a deck and then ignore the rest of the deck for its color identity...

Dice_Box

01-29-2016, 10:32 AM

A lot of the Blue Control decks in Modern are actually dependent on Black cards for the real control they have on the game. Blue offers the ability to slightly filter or rebuy spells, not really control the game.

T-101

01-29-2016, 05:46 PM

Nothing because the green decks still can not handle them, and Wizards wants a high # of cdecks with no blue cards, as to many players see an island and 4 blue cards in a deck and then ignore the rest of the deck for its color identity...

Not necessarily.

The mere existence of Force changes a format. As we see in Legacy, Force causes decks to would otherwise fold to it to find countermeasures. Storm, for instance, has to play discard, which slows it down by a turn or so.

I wonder if it would be the same for Modern. Would people really go all-in on turn 2 for Grishoalbrand if they knew that there was a decent chance the opponent had Force? Maybe they'd have to start playing Probe and discard for insurance, which would slow them down enough for some of the fair decks to present a threat.

I mean, obviously there are still gonna be the maniacs out there, like blind-turn-1-Belcher-guy, and SI guy, but for the most part, the all-in combos would probably have to respect Force. Not saying it's guaranteed it would be a good thing for the format, but it's interesting to think about on occasion.

Chatto

02-07-2016, 12:43 AM

Sooo... Considering the PT I just watched, in my opinion WotC made a big mess out of Modern. I have a feeling April will be a month with new bannings. Honestly, this is just sad.

Dice_Box

02-07-2016, 01:32 AM

I am glad I was already selling out after the Twin ban.

sjmcc13

02-07-2016, 01:53 AM

Sooo... Considering the PT I just watched, in my opinion WotC made a big mess out of Modern. I have a feeling April will be a month with new bannings. Honestly, this is just sad.

They took a format where Control decks are weak, and killed of the major combo's.
All that is left are midrange and aggro decks. Aggro tends to be stronger during changes in the metagame, while the rest of the decks are adapting.
Hopefully there is more to come, and the format recovers, but it feels like Wizards screwed up due to echo cambering themselves.

It also does not help they they seem to have been pushing Eldrazi in Oath, I honestly think Mimic should have been 3 mana or at least had a colourless in its cost, as eye making it free is dangerous since there is the potential to drop multiple turn 1, an have them be at least 4 power when they swing on Turn 2. Heck the "Colourless" Eldrazi decks were running SSG meaning they had a chance to drop multiple mimics turn 1 and then a turn 2 Reality Smasher, with even 1 turn 1 mimic a turn 2 smasher is 10 damage right then and there.

The reason for banning Twin made no logical sense IT was not overpowered it was just popular, partly because it did not suffer from a weakness that they created in the rest of the format. Even if you accept the BS of them claiming that being a PT format means it has to change, which it does not outside of their heads, the ban if forcing change through the worst and laziest method available. It signals that they will kill you decks, and modern is not a safe investment like Reserved list cards which are both bad for the game in the long run. What they should be doing is having R&D actually design with modern in mind (there is not reason they can not, even if it is just adding 1-2 card here and there to strengthen fringe decks), targeted hate cards will not cut it since sideboards are already to random for you to reliable see anything you only have room in your board for 1 copy of the only reason things like that work in Legacy is the strength of BS + Fetch with other draw fixers (if we want t claim this is a game of skill then the match has to rely on more then who finds the 1-2 in 60 card that shuts down their opponent out of their first 15)

DLifshitz

02-07-2016, 01:11 PM

Sooo... Considering the PT I just watched, in my opinion WotC made a big mess out of Modern. I have a feeling April will be a month with new bannings.

That PT alone will have sold a lot of OGW packs, though. I suspect that from their point of view, everything is turning out perfect.

Lord Seth

02-07-2016, 01:44 PM

That PT alone will have sold a lot of OGW packs, though. I suspect that from their point of view, everything is turning out perfect.I actually wonder about that. The Eldrazi deck showed off, but it also did so well that it probably turned a lot of people off of the format. Selling product because it has cards that are powerful in a particular format isn't going to work if people are avoiding the format.

JPoJohnson

02-07-2016, 03:19 PM

Yeah, I'm really getting all disenchanted with Modern as a format. I keep trying to be interested in it, but it is just meh.

I'm already over all the Eldrazi decks.

Phoenix Ignition

02-07-2016, 03:56 PM

This has been a problem that's presented itself since before Tron. There are no good ways to deal with nonbasic lands that break the format, and it's showing itself once more.

Tron has always been a problem in my opinion due to its ridiculous potential on turn 3, and no good land killing so that stuff like Blood Moon is a mere bump in the road. Amulet Bloom was slightly more ridiculous in that it could show its ridiculous potential on turn 2 (or even 1 with a nuts draw). That got a ban, but the ban doesn't fix the original problem. Now we're just seeing the same exact problem one more time with this stupid Eldrazi bullshits deck.

Eye of Ugin definitely needs to go, playing 2 mana mimics for free on turn 1 will be broken forever in this format, but that doesn't get to the root of it all. Give us a goddamn way to stop people from just assembling nonbasics so we can play a real format.

Legacy and Vintage have already died for me. Modern is on life support. I'll be watching closely to see if they actually fix it or I'm going to just be done with the game.

DLifshitz

02-07-2016, 05:24 PM

I actually wonder about that. The Eldrazi deck showed off, but it also did so well that it probably turned a lot of people off of the format. Selling product because it has cards that are powerful in a particular format isn't going to work if people are avoiding the format.

To their eternal misfortune, many if not most competitive or semi-competitive Magic players are too ambitious to quit when the going gets tough. Ban their decks, increase the pace of rotation, throttle back the reprints, eliminate a format, and they still keep coming back. I am guilty of this, too. I doubt that this PT is going to make a significant proportion of Modern players rethink their commitment to the format.

Even if they do, well, Modern players usually weren't the ones buying sealed product anyhow, and WotC have no Modern Masters planned for 2016.

On the other hand, the Standard people and the occasional singleton (EDH and so on) player watching the coverage will definitely overlook how Modern is managed, and will want to at least try out to play Eldrazi beatdown. (I know I would, if Standard wasn't a bottomless money drain.) And that of course means higher sales.

Phoenix Ignition

02-07-2016, 06:27 PM

Even if they do, well, Modern players usually weren't the ones buying sealed product anyhow, and WotC have no Modern Masters planned for 2016.

I'm not sure this is true, while I don't know anyone who goes into a game shop and just straight up buys packs, I've been to multiple different weekly tournaments that pay out in packs for prizes. They usually give you the option to switch it into store credit at something like $2.50 per pack, but most players I see just crack open packs instead. Probably like a box and a half went out every tournament I went to, and that can really add up.

Davran

02-08-2016, 09:22 AM

On the other hand, the Standard people and the occasional singleton (EDH and so on) player watching the coverage will definitely overlook how Modern is managed, and will want to at least try out to play Eldrazi beatdown. (I know I would, if Standard wasn't a bottomless money drain.) And that of course means higher sales.

As an exclusively EDH and limited player mildly interested in other constructed formats, I fit this demographic. I tried modern on several occasions (it's my LGS's other FNM format), got burned once due to a banning and burned again when the meta shifted after another banning made my fall back deck unplayable. I have little interest in buying in to Eldrazi (for the third time) only to get burned again when Eye of Ugin or Eldrazi Whatever gets banned and everything changes again.

The whole idea of modern was supposed to be a non-rotating format like legacy only without the reserved list. Instead of that, we absolutely have a rotating format that's managed via banning cards instead of rotating blocks. I have no interest in trying to gauge which deck is good but also not good enough to be affected by the ham-fisted ban decisions, especially when one of the criterion is better coverage.

Paul7926

02-08-2016, 09:42 AM

I was one of the lucky ones as I sold my pod deck quite a while before it was banned and I owned Grixis Control rather than Splinter Twin when that got the ban hammer. I've managed to shift all of my modern cards now as I have no interest in a format where part of the meta-game is trying to guess which deck will be randomly destroyed next. Even though I sold the deck cheap it has completely funded my entry into another hobby that doesn't demand as much time & money. Having already fled Standard due to the massive cost of 'keeping up' my only connection to Magic now is my beloved Legacy Goblins deck. I don't mind having to pick up a copy or two of Warping Wail to test that.

I was initially quite disturbed at the dropping of Legacy by SCG (despite being a Brit and living in England so not going to actually play in one). I was worried about a loss of support and that official eyes would no longer look out for the format. Now I'm actively hoping that is exactly what will happen. Thanks Dr Garfield for a most extraordinary game. Thanks WOTC for some fun times since I started playing in Onslaught but I would prefer now for you and I to part company. I have my Legacy deck so that I can still play the game and I will buy the odd single now and again (obviously not from you) but I want no further part in supporting the company you have become. Too many bad decisions immediately on the back of other bad decisions, knee jerk reactions and treating your customers like naughty children.

Tylert

02-08-2016, 10:01 AM

I play a tier 2 deck. No need to worry about the banning of a card... my deck won't get hurt... (Except if they ban the UWR manabase totally) :)
ANd I'm still having fun

02-08-2016, 10:09 AM

Eye will probably get banned, but most certainly not while it is driving the sales of an in-print set.

Once Oath is out of print, expect a ban at the next available announcement.

Davran

02-08-2016, 10:39 AM

Eye will probably get banned, but most certainly not while it is driving the sales of an in-print set.

Once Oath is out of print, expect a ban at the next available announcement.

I think this is a safe assumption. The real question is what the reasoning will be - will WotC write their "mia culpa", or will it be some BS about coverage again?

Ace/Homebrew

02-08-2016, 10:50 AM

I play a tier 2 deck.
Yeah I feel safe with my deck choices (Eight Rack, G/R Scapeshift, Extra Turns). :wink:

If Splinter Twin were unbanned, would Eldrazi still be a boogie-man? Is it just as likely for WotC to admit a mistake and unban that card than to piss off people flocking to Eldrazi.dec?

Admiral_Arzar

02-08-2016, 11:19 AM

Paul7926

02-08-2016, 11:32 AM

If Splinter Twin were unbanned, would Eldrazi still be a boogie-man? Is it just as likely for WotC to admit a mistake and unban that card than to piss off people flocking to Eldrazi.dec?

It's not just that, in my opinion, it didn't need banning it's the fact that the 'reason' was so blatantly not true. I think that did as much damage if not more than the actual banning.

02-08-2016, 11:52 AM

I think this is a safe assumption. The real question is what the reasoning will be - will WotC write their "mia culpa", or will it be some BS about coverage again?

Probably yet another nonsense lip-service to some fabled "diversity" or something. At this point though, if you are actually believing what they put in the explanations though, you could probably freely substitute "an old wooden ship" for "diversity" and still get the same mileage out of their reasoning.

Phoenix Ignition

02-08-2016, 12:39 PM

I think this is a safe assumption. The real question is what the reasoning will be - will WotC write their "mia culpa", or will it be some BS about coverage again?
"We gave everyone a chance to try to adapt for the last 9 months, but in the interest of format diversity, Eye of Ugin has been banned."

Davran

02-08-2016, 01:08 PM

"We gave everyone a chance to try to adapt for the last 9 months, but in the interest of format diversity, Eye of Ugin has been banned."

Who knows, maybe Innistrad 2: Electric Boogaloo has something that gives the eldrazi players what for. If not, we can all rest assured the modern banlist will get a little longer I guess.

Jamaican Zombie Legend

02-08-2016, 04:39 PM

salt.jpg

He is right — Modern really doesn't have great ways to reign in powerful manabases before turn three; it's pretty much Spreading Seas and Sea's Claim which are basically only usable in Merfolk or Ghost Quarter, which is a tough fit into most shells. Stuff like Crack the Earth and Boom//Bust are more gimmicky than anything else and turn 3 answers are often too slow; that's a nice Blood Moon you have on board, but I've already dropped Karn/Wurmcoil/TKS/Smasher and am beating down hard. And Moon needs to be paired with a clock; it's not a permanent solution to their landbase as once they destroy Moon, they're ready to roll again.

In Wizard's defense, I'm not really certain what they can do. Wasteland is clearly too powerful for Modern and any card would have to come through the Standard pipeline. I'd be interested in seeing what a card like this:

Manahole RR

Sorcery

Destroy target nonbasic land.

or even

Contrived Manahole

Sorcery

Destroy target nonbasic land without a basic land type.

could do, but I won't be holding my breath. Wizards really hates LD.

Phoenix Ignition

02-08-2016, 06:03 PM

big_ticket

02-08-2016, 10:02 PM

let them enjoy eldrazi in modern while they can,

Ricardio

02-09-2016, 10:06 AM

Probably yet another nonsense lip-service to some fabled "diversity" or something. At this point though, if you are actually believing what they put in the explanations though, you could probably freely substitute "an old wooden ship" for "diversity" and still get the same mileage out of their reasoning.

haha! Anchorman quote 10/10

They wont ban it as long as it keeps making them money.
In order of significance to wotc: Standard, EDH, draft, whatever else is left. I am almost positive they don't know the name of the formats.

02-09-2016, 10:30 AM

haha! Anchorman quote 10/10

They wont ban it as long as it keeps making them money.
In order of significance to wotc: Standard, EDH, draft, whatever else is left. I am almost positive they don't know the name of the formats.

I think a prevailing theory is that the print run is about 6 months? So, chances are we have 6 months of Eldrazi dominance, unless people are actually smart and start meta-gaming for the deck (then again, I don't know if you can do this and still beat the usual Affinity/Infect/Tron/Company decks too).

The hierarchy of formats though is what sells the most to the least. Limited moves the most product, followed by Standard. EDH/Casual is next and then the pandering of things to Modern. There is no real attention payed to Legacy or Vintage. For every Legacy/Vintage player there are probably 1,000 Standard players and 2,000 Limited players. There are most Casual players then all the other formats put together, but they don't necessarily buy things consistently.

Wizards doesn't care about formats. They care about selling sealed product. They will pander to whatever format happens to lead to selling the most product. Modern is not that format.

maharis

02-09-2016, 10:44 AM

FWIW I think BW tokens is a good call right now, especially since Twin is gone and you don't have to buy your $40 Auriok Champions to compete (and can safely cast a lingering souls on turn 3).

You get virtual card advantage by turning all your cards into multiple cards-- Lingering Souls is 4 cards, Bitterblossom is a bunch of cards, planeswalkers like Sorins or Elspeths produce a lot of virtual cards -- making point removal soft against you. You get access to all the BW disruption which is the best suite in modern. You have tons of blockers for the aggro-combo decks like Affinity and Infect until you stabilize and win with a Shambling Vent. And finally, most tokens fly so you can go over the top of the land-based Eldrazi and green creature decks like Company.

Tron is probably tough sledding, but no deck has all perfect matchups. Burn can go either way, especially if you get a Sorin online with some lifelink. Taking twin out of the arena makes this deck pretty good though, I believe.

On the actual topic, it should've been obvious that this would happen, they put "colorless" riders on Eye and Temple so you couldn't ramp into the original Eldrazi brood like Emrakul's Hatcher then one of the original Titans too easily. Of course on their own cards like Emrakul's Hatcher are total dreck, so it wouldn't have mattered really; but now that the Eldrazi are all colorless and souped up, 4 or 5 cmc might as well be 2 or 3 functionally (compare Brain Maggot to Thought-Knot). Eye will be banned and I expect it to be at the next update because this Eldrazi deck is pushing way more decks out of the meta than DRS jund or Cruise delver ever did.

Honestly, I wish they'd decide to power up the format instead and unban something like 10 cards. Cantrips, depths, DRS, dread return, twin, stoneforge, sword of the meek, summer bloom, a ritual, maybe glimpse, top. You'd get a wider range of decks, even though games might not last till turn 4.

rufus

02-09-2016, 12:38 PM

FWIW I think BW tokens is a good call right now, especially since Twin is gone and you don't have to buy your $40 Auriok Champions to compete (and can safely cast a lingering souls on turn 3).

....

At least in the short term, you have to have a good match-up against the eldrazi meance, and I don't think the tokens do well against the eldrazi. Cards like Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher are pretty challenging for the token deck's "value" plan to keep up with until late in the game.

I would be looking for something that attacks along a different dimension. Maybe something with Ghostly Prison, or Magus of the Moat could work, or some kind of Painter's Servant combo.

Dice_Box

02-09-2016, 12:51 PM

From what I am reading, Junk Company decks might be the best answer. Having play against Eldrazi and most of the remaining field.

maharis

02-09-2016, 02:56 PM

At least in the short term, you have to have a good match-up against the eldrazi meance, and I don't think the tokens do well against the eldrazi. Cards like Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher are pretty challenging for the token deck's "value" plan to keep up with until late in the game.

I would be looking for something that attacks along a different dimension. Maybe something with Ghostly Prison, or Magus of the Moat could work, or some kind of Painter's Servant combo.

That's possible. I think having a lot of disruption, redundancy and blockers and a pretty strong late game with manlands and planeswalkers, while being able to fly over the top, would be good. Plus it can play Magus of the Moon (which I would buy now if you want them, because freakin Painter is like $50 now because people think it might be good). But yeah, Reality Smasher and Vile Aggregate are real pains. Of course, path your Smasher, discard Lingering Souls just oozes value.

I always liked Ghostly Prison and wondered why people didn't play it more against Splinter Twin. It will turn of the shenanigans but you still have to deal with the

Painter I think will end up disappointing people. It's a 3 mana 1/3 that doesn't affect the current board AND doesn't completely lock people out -- they can just stack up lands and play their creatures on curve. It turns off Eye, but so does Crumble to Dust for 1 more, and more permanently. And as far as I know there's no meaningful modern combo with it.

I'm kind of excited to see what people come up with before Eye is banned, assuming people even play modern. Maybe we'll get some cool decks.

supremePINEAPPLE

02-09-2016, 03:29 PM

Painter is 2cmc so it's not quite as pitiful as it would be against eldrazi if it were 3cmc. It's still pretty horrible if eldrazi got a fast start though.

I'm playing a tempo-y grixis deck with 5+ 2cmc black kill spells (mix of terminate, roast, go for the throat, and doom blade) and it's doing okayish against eldrazi. Forked bolt has been great for multiple mimic starts too. I think people are trying to be a little too cute when they should just be trying to kill everything all the time and overloading their thought-knots.

swoop

02-09-2016, 04:51 PM

I played against Eldrazi (new brew) with old mono b and bw.no chance in hell

I played against new Eldrazi with living end.

Mull to chalice on 0 and win. Gg

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

Phoenix Ignition

02-09-2016, 05:24 PM

Many Eldrazi decks run 4x Chalice to hit you at 1. I don't really see Path/inquistion/thoughtseize to be that viable if you don't have something to take care of it if they do land one early.

swoop

02-09-2016, 05:27 PM

Chalice to 0 against living end makes you scoop.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

Phoenix Ignition

02-09-2016, 05:34 PM

Yeah, I was responding about the BW tokens comment, but didn't notice that that was a page ago.

maharis

02-10-2016, 10:16 AM

Well, the real problem with this Eldrazi deck is that modern doesn't have the tools to prepare for 8+ ways of getting a 2-drop down turn 1. If you play around Chalice, they Mimic-swarm you; if you load up on cheap interaction, you have Chalice to deal with.

That being said, it's probably pretty safe to eschew Path, in favor of Dismember and/or good old Doom Blade since so few black creatures are played in the format.

02-10-2016, 10:53 AM

Dice_Box

02-10-2016, 10:58 AM

Go For the Throat? Only misses Wurmcoil Engine, at least, that I can think of.
And whatever Ravager has pumped or Plating is on.

rufus

02-10-2016, 11:03 AM

Go For the Throat? Only misses Wurmcoil Engine, at least, that I can think of.

Also misses Spellskite but that's really a mixed thing.

02-10-2016, 11:33 AM

Also misses Spellskite but that's really a mixed thing.

Yeah, there is a subset of times where that is an actual benefit.

Of course there is always Terminate.

Dice_Box

02-10-2016, 08:11 PM

I played the Eldrazi deck (Colourless) last night. It is quite strong. Something unlike anything I have played before in Modern. This thing will eat the hammer if the meta doesn't adjust but it is beatable.

swoop

02-11-2016, 08:04 AM

Dice_Box

02-11-2016, 08:31 AM

Cheerios becomes top deck suddenly for no reason.

Ish

02-11-2016, 11:36 AM

They should print some new powerful cards as these.

Anti chalice. XX

Antichalice enters the battlefield with X counters. Players can't play spells with converted mana cost higher than X.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

So... Lands (in legacy) would be unbeatable. Even in modern 4xthis and man lands.

I assume this was a joke.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Whitefaces

02-11-2016, 11:53 AM

Bobmans

02-12-2016, 01:44 AM

This thing will eat the hammer if the meta doesn't adjust but it is beatable.

I hear a lot of people leaving Modern. Selling their collections (and investing in Legacy). All because of the banning's and our new friends the Alien's.

JPoJohnson

02-12-2016, 11:08 AM

I welcome them all to Legacy with open arms!

apple713

02-12-2016, 11:30 AM

iamajellydonut

02-12-2016, 11:34 AM

Maybe if it was

Anti chalice XXX

Players can't play spells with converted mana cost lower than X

Ramp up 51 mana. Cast Anti-Chalice. Win with Dryad Arbor beats.

Megadeus

02-12-2016, 11:49 AM

I liked the theoretical hate bear that someone made up of "players can't cast spells with a mana cost greater than the number of lands they control"

Davran

02-12-2016, 01:59 PM

I liked the theoretical hate bear that someone made up of "players can't cast spells with a mana cost greater than the number of lands they control"

I know this is the modern thread...but the first thing I thought of when I read this is "nice Force of Will, bruh". It's probably the flavor text on that card or something.

sjmcc13

02-12-2016, 02:51 PM

They should print some new powerful cards as these.

Anti chalice. XX

Antichalice enters the battlefield with X counters. Players can't play spells with converted mana cost higher than X.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

Maybe if it was

Anti chalice XXX

Players can't play spells with converted mana cost lower than X

My preference would be something like :

Anti-Chalice XX
Comes into play with 8-x counters
Players can't play spells with converted mana cost higher than the 3 of counters on anti-Chalice
10: remove a counter from Anti-Chalice, this costs 1 less to activate for every counter on Anti-Chalice.

Ace/Homebrew

02-12-2016, 03:09 PM

Ugh...

Obligatory shitty card creation thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15217-Obligatory-shitty-card-creation-thread)

Ricardio

02-19-2016, 09:17 AM

Davran

02-19-2016, 11:49 AM

Modern is dead as long as the eldrazi decks are still real. 3 of my 5 rounds in league were against eldrazi decks. I was on naya burn and I wont 3 games of the 3 matchs. winning only a single match. t1 eye, mimic, endless 2/2, endless 2/2. t2 temple, TKS, 8 dmg is horse$h*t.

Prices in legacy are making it impossible for new players to break in.

Standard is a wet noodle fight.

Magic is circling the drain and wotc just wants all the money they can as it b-lines for the drain.

Seems like there's a fair amount of salt in this post.

While I agree that legacy (and to some extent modern) prices are ridiculous, and that standard is not particularly exciting at the moment, the largest sales numbers ever and huge spikes in GP attendance seem to refute your "circling the drain" comments. Yes, the eldrazi decks are everywhere. WotC has banned cards for less, and I'm sure this will be no exception to that. Give it a little time and we can all move on to heralding the end of days from whatever the next boogyman is.

Zombie

02-21-2016, 12:19 PM

https://twitter.com/Nickthos/status/701439796590329856

Spam

02-21-2016, 01:29 PM

Well, that was fast. April is going to be a lot more empty without those lovely Eldrazi.

Phoenix Ignition

02-21-2016, 02:24 PM

Tron players, how bad will an Eye of Ugin ban hit your deck? Does it make it much worse?

sjmcc13

02-21-2016, 05:49 PM

https://twitter.com/Nickthos/status/701439796590329856
Isn't the SCG tournament scene dominated by players following the current bandwagon/new hotness decks?

conboy31

02-21-2016, 06:57 PM

Isn't the SCG tournament scene dominated by players following the current bandwagon/new hotness decks?

I don't know? People generally don't drive/fly then pay a 50 dollar entry fee to register a total shit deck. It did very well at the PT, follows that versions would show up at following events.

rufus

02-21-2016, 07:22 PM

Tron players, how bad will an Eye of Ugin ban hit your deck? Does it make it much worse?

I'm pretty sure it makes the deck much worse. There's a lot of acient stirrings/scrying sheets late game synergy stuff that the deck uses.

Kathal

02-22-2016, 06:43 AM

Tron players, how bad will an Eye of Ugin ban hit your deck? Does it make it much worse?

Hard, very hard. Their BGx and Control match-up will get way worse, since they are lacking the lategame with Eye. For all other match-ups nothing will change, since Eye will get boarded out in those match-ups like 80% of the time. This will lead into a increase of threads + a slight reconfiguration of the sweepers (less O-Stone, more Ugin, overall maybe around 11-12 threads) just to be able to reliable cast something.

While it is the worst land in the deck, it is also the best one IF you reach a certain state of the game.

Greetings,
Kathal

Lord Seth

02-24-2016, 08:22 PM

Tron players, how bad will an Eye of Ugin ban hit your deck? Does it make it much worse?It takes a hit. Eye of Ugin can be replaced with Conduit of Ruin, but you have to run more copies of Conduit of Ruin than Eye of Ugin (as Sylvan Scrying and Expedition Map can't grab Conduit of Ruin) and Conduit of Ruin has the big issue of being unable to grab Wurmcoil Engine, so you'd probably have to consider replacing those with cards that can be tutor'd for, like Platinum Angel or Platinum Emperion (or try to go more all-in on the "cast Ulamog" plan, which the Conduit of Ruin helps out with).

It's a case of having to use more slots up to accomplish what previously you were able to do with one, and the fact that what was previously one of your best creatures is considerably depowered.

morgan_coke

03-25-2016, 11:07 AM

Yep, there really needs to be a penalty to playing nonbasics. I think Shock lands and fetch lands are pretty well balanced, since if you get too greedy you get a metagame full of burn decks to show you how wrong you are for going 5 color. Utility lands, especially ones that come into play untapped or produce mana (or "effective mana") right away have very little drawback to them. Waiting until turn 3 just isn't good enough, there needs to be something you can do before then, or we'll just have a nonstop line of decks that need to be banned. Started with 12 post, then it was amulet bloom, and it'll keep going until something really changes the fact that some nonbasics are just too good.

I don't really think Wasteland or an equivalent would help the format since the shocks are already a penalty. We just need something more geared towards the nonbasics that don't have strong penalties already associated with them.

It's one of the biggest problems WOTC has with Modern. The format doesn't include any of the overpowered "answer" cards or the tools to enable the ones it does have, like a T1 Moon, or Price of Progress, or Wasteland, or a Force of Will equivalent. Hell, Modern doesn't even have Counterspell, which is a card that would really, really, really help with a lot this stuff. That's why they keep having to ban so many things, because the set of cards available just doesn't exist to answer non-linear strategies, whether that strategy is based on accelerated mana, or on very redundant combinations - i.e. Splinter Twin having up to 8 copies of both combo pieces.

Modern doesn't have "Glass Cannons" because nobody in Modern has a glass-breaking hammer. Modern just has Cannons. And that's why the format and ban list are such a mess, and will continue to be such in the future.

Arsenal

03-28-2016, 04:58 PM

Idk, Modern attendance has been sky high. Modern card prices are soaring. They've printed two Modern-dedicated sets in the last 3 years (2013 and 2015). They actively police the format, suggesting they care very much about it's long-term health ($$$ maker). No format is perfect, but it really can't be as bad as you claim if it's been doing nothing but growing since it's inception.

Phoenix Ignition

03-30-2016, 06:04 PM

Decently backed rumors say Eye of Ugin is gone.

Speculations on the new top deck? Infect/Affinity/podless-pod? Can a true control deck emerge now?

Dice_Box

03-30-2016, 06:19 PM

Decently backed rumors say Eye of Ugin is gone.

Speculations on the new top deck? Infect/Affinity/podless-pod? Can a true control deck emerge now?
Grixis Control can somewhat. The top decks are likely to be Infect, Affinity, Burn, Coco and Jund/Junk. Tron is going to take a real hit since R/G loses access to its 9/13 copies of Eye to end the game with, Scapeshift is too slow in such a fast Meta, Fish might find a home but it just dies hard to Affinity, Elves could make a comeback, the meta not hostile to is as long as Jund and Grixis are not too large and I think Kiki Chord will come to the fore again.

Phoenix Ignition

03-30-2016, 06:26 PM

There were a few UW control lists going around a couple months ago, before the eldrazi came. UWR control might have it's moment in the sun again as well if these fast creature combo decks are the new norm. I've also always been very partial to 4 or 5 color Gifts control decks that really were just bad against the turn 2 kills and Tron. Turn 2 kills exist but now that we don't have to hedge so hard against abusive lands there's a decent amount of slots to put in more sacrifice effects.

I'll be playing Deathcloud for a while though, hopefully persist shenanigans don't run supreme.

Dice_Box

03-30-2016, 06:37 PM

Lord Seth

03-30-2016, 09:36 PM

Decently backed rumors say Eye of Ugin is gone.Such as?

Dice_Box

03-31-2016, 02:35 AM

Twitter. From on high.

keys

03-31-2016, 04:35 AM

If this is true (BIG 'if'), Eldrazi will probably stay Tier 1/Tier 2. You can swap in Vesuva for Eye and still have a functioning deck. It just won't be nearly as broken (Turn 2 TKS is still a possibility, but very rare; no more multiple Mimic openings). No one should be surprised though, since Aaron Forsythe came out saying they weren't going to make the deck unplayable.

This also has a bit of splash damage to Tron, which is probably a good thing since everyone predicted it to be the DTB after the Splinter Twin ban.

So the price of Temple and Vesuva will probable go up, while Eye will tank. Gonna have to pick up some foils.

Related: Why Eye of Ugin is the Ban (MTGPrice) (http://blog.mtgprice.com/2016/03/30/why-eye-of-ugin-is-the-ban/?doing_wp_cron=1459413937.0863940715789794921875)

morgan_coke

03-31-2016, 11:41 AM

I really have a hard time seeing them banning "just" Eye of Ugin. I'm almost 100% certain Temple gets hit too. Every time wizards has decided they need to kill a deck, they've KILLED it. Think about what happened to Affinity, or Caw-Blade. Does anyone really think WotC wants to come back in three months and do this again with Vesuva/Temple based Eldrazi running rampant? I mean, Green/x Tron probably just becomes the new Eldrazi mid-range deck after this, given the power level of Reality Smasher and Thought-Knot Seer + Ancient Stirrings/Sylvan Scrying. It's basically a much better version of the old, and very strong, "Troll and Nail" decks. Except now it will be "Eldrazi and Karn" decks.

So I guess I just don't understand why people think only one of the lands is going to take a beating here.

iatee

03-31-2016, 11:43 AM

Forsythe explicitly said they don't want to totally kill Eldrazi as a deck and banning both lands does that.

keys

03-31-2016, 11:51 AM

Forsythe explicitly said they don't want to totally kill Eldrazi as a deck and banning both lands does that.

It's historical precedent versus the word of the director of MTG R&D.

We'll see very soon what ends up being false.

I really have a hard time seeing them banning "just" Eye of Ugin. I'm almost 100% certain Temple gets hit too. Every time wizards has decided they need to kill a deck, they've KILLED it. Think about what happened to Affinity, or Caw-Blade. Does anyone really think WotC wants to come back in three months and do this again with Vesuva/Temple based Eldrazi running rampant? I mean, Green/x Tron probably just becomes the new Eldrazi mid-range deck after this, given the power level of Reality Smasher and Thought-Knot Seer + Ancient Stirrings/Sylvan Scrying. It's basically a much better version of the old, and very strong, "Troll and Nail" decks. Except now it will be "Eldrazi and Karn" decks.

So I guess I just don't understand why people think only one of the lands is going to take a beating here.

Eye enables the broken plays. With Temple it may still be Tier 1 until the meta adapts, but it's still just an aggro deck with a weak manabase and no reach. With neither lands there's no point to playing the deck since Zoo and Jund do the same thing better.

morgan_coke

03-31-2016, 12:24 PM

Forsythe explicitly said they don't want to totally kill Eldrazi as a deck and banning both lands does that.

I guess that's what I meant about "eldrazi and karn" becoming the new deck. Things just get a lot more mid-rangey that way, but you've still got people able to play with their smashers and seers and whatnot.

I mean:

4x TKS
4x Reality Smasher
4x Karn Liberated
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3x Oblivion Stone
3x Wurmcoil Engine

4x Chromatic Star
4x Chromatic Sphere
4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Expedition Map
3x Sylvan Scrying

4x Urza's Tower
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Mine
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Stomping Ground

I mean, that's a pretty solid deck that's very Eldrazi-ish, and can run without Temples or Eyes, but it isn't overpowered like the current Eldrazi decks, because even though it does lots of broken things, and can do them every turn, it doesn't start doing them until turn 3, and it can be disrupted. The Eldrazi decks only have to devote a few land slots to their broken mana engine, which lets them run lots of things like Cavern of Souls that further power up their dudes.

Vesuva/Temple/Cavern is the same number of slots as full tron, and just like the cloudpost engine, it comes online a heck of a lot more reliably and faster.

keys

03-31-2016, 12:49 PM

You've just subbed Eldrazi for Wurmcoil. That doesn't seem like an improvement to me.

iatee

03-31-2016, 12:55 PM

I agree morgan, that deck seems strong and I would definitely vote for banning both lands. (Hell I'd ban the Tron lands too.) I just think Forsythe was pretty clear that they wanted Eldrazi to stick around as a deck so it's very unlikely. They feel like Modern needs a regularly shifting meta and new cards.

morgan_coke

03-31-2016, 02:22 PM

You've just subbed Eldrazi for Wurmcoil. That doesn't seem like an improvement to me.

I'm guessing you weren't around during the era when Tooth and Nail transitioned into Troll and Nail then. Basically, the way everyone fought TNN was mixes of counters, discard, ld and extraction effects. The thing is, some TNN players realized that they could win just fine with only ONE big combo set of targets for TNN, instead of running like 8 different things for different situations, then they used the space freed up to run a bunch of midrange green creatures, like Troll Ascetic. This made the deck a nightmare to play against because even if you stopped the "combo" you still had a bunch of big monsters kicking in your teeth.

Same thing with that list. Less one-of nonsense and counterplay silliness, way more "kick in your teeth". It's the ultimate expression of the philosophy of fire, or combo in mid-range form. Basically, you're saying "i'm going to get out absurd amounts of mana, then cast lots and lots and lots of big, resilient threats. Deal with it or lose".

Oh, and it still has Wurmcoil, the Eldrazi are in addition to that. What got cut is crap like Spellskite, Painter's Servant, and the 10+ mana one-ofs.

Phoenix Ignition

03-31-2016, 02:39 PM

I don't think the problem with Eldrazi was that they played a 4/4 for 4 mana on turn 4 or Reality Smasher around then, the problem was that they'd do it on turn 2 and you'd basically have only 1 turn to stop it. TKS is a great card but it doesn't oppress the format when played on turn 4, and that's all your list (and other tron ones like it) would be able to do unless you go 1-2-3 tron, and if that's the case I'm wayyy less scared of a TKS than a Karn or Wurmcoil. By then you could have already died to infect, elves, affinity, whatever. Control can still work against this type of deck since they're actually able to get a couple turns to set up.

In that tron list the thing I'd be most worried about is a turn 3 Karn, and that doesn't really change much. Without ridiculous mana ramp into TKS it's just a good card, not bonkers insane. Losing Eye of Ugin really makes Tron worse in the long game, so incorporating a few powerful Eldrazi will help them but looking at it from my control list's point of view I'm a lot more comfortable going into the end game against that.

morgan_coke

03-31-2016, 04:01 PM

Oh, yeah, no, it's totally worse than the current Eldrazi list with Temple and Eye. I just wanted to show that you could ban both lands and still have an "eldrazi" deck. I mean, it took awhile, but even after the artifact land bannings, we still have a pretty dang good affinity deck out there.

Lord Seth

03-31-2016, 06:07 PM

I really have a hard time seeing them banning "just" Eye of Ugin. I'm almost 100% certain Temple gets hit too. Every time wizards has decided they need to kill a deck, they've KILLED it. Think about what happened to Affinity, or Caw-Blade.Caw-Blade wasn't close to killed; it was still one of the best decks in the format post bannings. Case in point: Grand Prix Pittsburgh (2011), which took place after the bannings, had THREE Caw-Blade decks in the Top 8 (one of which was the winner).

morgan_coke

04-01-2016, 12:32 PM

Caw-Blade wasn't close to killed; it was still one of the best decks in the format post bannings. Case in point: Grand Prix Pittsburgh (2011), which took place after the bannings, had THREE Caw-Blade decks in the Top 8 (one of which was the winner).

Um... Jace and Stoneforge were banned. The only key card to survive was Squadron Hawk. Are you dense?

Lord Seth

04-01-2016, 07:13 PM

Um... Jace and Stoneforge were banned. The only key card to survive was Squadron Hawk. Are you dense?
Did you read my post? I gave some pretty definite proof that Caw-Blade was not killed, because a deck that's killed doesn't get three copies of it into the Top 8 of a Grand Prix. So in what way am I "dense" unless you're arguing the Grand Prix somehow didn't happen? As a side note, you're wrong that the only key card to survive was Squadron Hawk. Even ignoring the rather important supporting cast (e.g. Mana Leak, Preordain), Sword of of Feast and Famine was still around. Both the "Caw" and the "Blade" were still legal.

Arsenal

04-04-2016, 10:59 AM

Eye of Ugin banned.

Ancestral Vision unbanned.
Sword of the Meek unbanned.

This is a clear signal they want to see blue as a contender. Depowering both Eldrazi and RG Tron, while giving us back Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek (even to test with, could turn out to be garbage), does nothing but bolster blue's positioning. Very good day for Modern format.

Dice_Box

04-04-2016, 11:08 AM

Well while I lost Shops, Grixis in Modern just got a kick up the ass.

Arsenal

04-04-2016, 11:36 AM

A lot of twitter speculation that Mox Opal is on the Watch list for banning...

Phoenix Ignition

04-04-2016, 12:25 PM

Not looking forward to all of the places Sword of the Meek fits into, but hey, I'm happy overall.

04-04-2016, 01:29 PM

Not looking forward to all of the places Sword of the Meek fits into, but hey, I'm happy overall.

Other than a UBx Tezzeret build or something like UW Tron, this combo isn't likely going into anything else. At least it promotes those types of decks into semi-relevant status. Or maybe it can create an Esper artifact control deck or something, because hey Thirst for Knowledge is good again! When Thopter/Sword was good in Extended, it was by far the best thing you could be doing at the time, at least in conjunction with Hexmage/Depths. Current Modern boasts far more decks and strategies that can just run over this. Unless the combo is assembled on turn 2-3, I imagine most aggro decks will crush these slow decks. Not to mention it already gets splash damage from the Affinity hate, so they have an uphill battle against Stony Silence/Destructive Revelry/Hurkyl's Recall/etc.

Also glad they kept Eldrazi Temple so that deck can exist in some capacity. It's still a fantastic aggro/midrange deck, albeit actually fair now.

On an unrelated note, I wonder if Ancestral Vision can now let me live the dream for Sphinx's Tutelage to be a thing in Modern.

EDIT: Saw the Mox Opal on watch theory. Certainly plausible, but I doubt Thopter decks will use more than one Mox unless they are full-blown dedicated artifact decks (and subsequently die to Stony Silence). If anything though, this all but confirms Stoneforge Mystic won't be taken off the banned list any time soon.

Meekrab

04-04-2016, 02:12 PM

Other than a UBx Tezzeret build or something like UW Tron, this combo isn't likely going into anything else. At least it promotes those types of decks into semi-relevant status. Or maybe it can create an Esper artifact control deck or something, because hey Thirst for Knowledge is good again!
UB Faeries will probably just jam the combo in (and add Thirst) because Sword of the Meek is just good value in that deck. It's not widely played and I doubt it even reaches tier 2 status, though.

Tron suddenly having the option of dumping out 7+ thopters a turn is certainly interesting/threatening, though they already have a ton of giant game ending options.

04-04-2016, 04:08 PM

UB Faeries will probably just jam the combo in (and add Thirst) because Sword of the Meek is just good value in that deck. It's not widely played and I doubt it even reaches tier 2 status, though.

Considering those decks didn't do that when they had the option last time Thopter/Sword was available in Extended, they probably wouldn't do it this time either. Besides, considering how underwhelming Faeries is in Modern on its own, there's likely a far better shell for the combo. This is likely what causes Tezzeret to viable (DERP, it spiked already to $40 whodathunk?) or will allow an Esper shell with Thirst and/or Gifts to be a legitimate thing.

Phoenix Ignition

04-04-2016, 04:24 PM

I guess more specifically I'm worried about the ridiculousness of Ensnaring Bridge in Modern now. It was already jammed in a lot of decks and we saw how annoying/powerful it is. Artifact control decks like Lantern could easily throw the combo in there, and even affinity can use the Ensnaring Bridge shenanigans with instant cranial plating. I'm not looking forward to a large percentage of decks that just sit with bridge and thopters until they kill you.

LMental

04-04-2016, 05:27 PM

I'm looking forward to brewing UB Tezz in the new modern. Starting point:

4 TfK
4 Tezz, Agent of Bolas
4 Darksteel Citadel
X Sword of the Meek
X Thopter Foundry
X Signets / Talismans
X Academy Ruins
? Chalice of the Void
? Discard (Thoughtseize / IoK)
? Murderous Cut
? Mox Opal
? Liliana of the Veil
? Ancestral Visions
? Damnation
? Engineered Explosives
? Spellskite
? Ensnaring Bridge

Lots to figure out. The optimal build is probably quite far away, but this deck would certainly have powerful options.

(nameless one)

04-04-2016, 08:38 PM

I like UB Tezz but I think Blue Tezz is better. You can tutor certain hate/win cards.

The only thing UB Tezz has is it can win through a Bridge.

LMental

04-04-2016, 09:03 PM

I like UB Tezz but I think Blue Tezz is better. You can tutor certain hate/win cards.

The only thing UB Tezz has is it can win through a Bridge.

I don't think UB Tezz is great, but it also has going for it that it costs 1 less and can "win the game" if left unchecked (though blue tezz can too). Its +1 is also better than U Tezz's +1, and it's -1 is not too shabby.

Megadeus

04-04-2016, 09:52 PM

To those worried about ensnaring bridge and such, do you know the card ancient grudge?

Phoenix Ignition

04-05-2016, 02:07 AM

To those worried about ensnaring bridge and such, do you know the card ancient grudge?

Yeah, thanks, insightful.

Arsenal

04-05-2016, 10:16 AM

rufus

04-05-2016, 12:39 PM

Arsenal

04-05-2016, 02:13 PM

I assume you mean Living End? It's a good deck, I agree, and it's been VERY well positioned in the Eldrazi meta as it had turn 3 sweeper potential. Do you think it'll get stronger in the presumed blue meta?

Megadeus

04-05-2016, 08:02 PM

Ancient Grudge implies RG, which isn't a very strong foundation in Modern. Also, Lantern runs seemingly infinite Spellskite and Welding Jar, so targeted removal spells aren't quite as effective as you'd hope.
Shatter storm. Creeping Corrosion. Fracturing Gust. Whatever. Artifacts have a million ways to be destroyed. I don't understand why anyone ever complains about artifacts

Edit: Hurkylls Recall

Phoenix Ignition

04-06-2016, 02:17 AM

Shatter storm. Creeping Corrosion. Fracturing Gust. Whatever. Artifacts have a million ways to be destroyed. I don't understand why anyone ever complains about artifacts

Edit: Hurkylls Recall

This is one of my favorite posts.

Creatures? Path, bolt, wrath of god. I don't understand why anyone ever complains about creatures.

Megadeus

04-06-2016, 04:25 PM

This is one of my favorite posts.

Creatures? Path, bolt, wrath of god. I don't understand why anyone ever complains about creatures.

They generally don't. And that's why lodestone golem was the first creature restricted in a long long time in vintage. I don't know about modern, but this is a format after all that banned Wild Nacatl so maybe the players in modern do simply bitch about any and everything. I just thought the bitching about an extremely easy to remove card like ensnaring bridge was funny

Arsenal

04-06-2016, 04:41 PM

In the deck that Bridge is played in, Lantern Control, it isn't quite as easy to deal with as you'd think, especially game 1. They have maindeck Spellskite and Welding Jar en masse to protect from removal that you topdecked, because your hand is definitely getting ripped to shreds via discard.

Also, it's important to retain perspective. Wild Nacatl saw a ban in Dec 2011. 2011. I mean, there was a time when many people in Legacy were calling for Goblin Lackey ban, which just seems ridiculous today, but wasn't so ridiculous back in, what, 2007?

iatee

04-06-2016, 04:54 PM

Bridge is a pretty oppressive card, they obviously wouldn't print it today. Its saving grace is probably that most people don't enjoy playing *with* Ensnaring Bridge-style decks and don't want to buy $40 Bridges. But the Lantern deck is quite good and quite consistent. However, I think they should actually ban Ancient Stirrings. It's the strongest cantrip in the format by a huge margin, and regularly finds itself giving ridiculous consistency to combo decks based around lands/artifacts (Tron, Bloom, now Lantern, surely something else in the future) while everyone else is left playing Serum Visions. When you can't count on having a Bridge *every* game, Lantern becomes much worse, maybe even unplayable on a competitive level, sorta like 8-rack.

Megadeus

04-06-2016, 06:00 PM

My thought is that if your opponent assembles the durdletron of Bridge+Lantern+Mill Artifact+Welding Jar/Spellskite+whatever they use to kill you with, they deserve their win and sometimes you have to accept that.

iatee

04-06-2016, 09:14 PM

When the deck is nothing but those cards + some light disruption + Ancient Stirrings, it manages to do it quite regularly and quickly. You don't need every single one of those cards immediately, once you're sitting behind a Bridge you have plenty of time to build the rest of the fort.

Bridge is really a ridiculous card in Modern especially as there are few reliable counterspells to stop someone's 'key card', decks are far more creature-based in general and combo isn't as present (or fast enough) to punish you for a few turns of durdling.

If you're truly stuck to drawing one of your 4 copies of Bridge and don't have great library manipulation, you can't build a consistent deck off that card. Ancient Stirrings patches that hole for Lantern, so banning that pretty much turns it into a janky T2 combo deck, which is probably where a deck like that belongs. I mean, it's a cool and super creative deck - in theory - but if it becomes a large part of the meta it could actually cause people to quit the format.

LegacyIsAnEternalFormat

04-06-2016, 09:27 PM

04-07-2016, 08:28 AM

04-07-2016, 09:14 AM

Just curious.
Why don't you guys go to the MtGSalvation Modern banlist discussion which is much more active than this one?
I'll link it below:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/683938-current-modern-banlist-discussion-4-4-2016-eye-of

....or we can promote discussion on this forum and grow it instead of diving into the cesspool that is MTGSalvation's forums.

...

Anyway, I see the Thopter/Sword combo as a fantastic addition to Modern, as it brings out at least 1-2 new viable decks. It's a new option in a format that is littered with overlapping linear strategies, while not being overpowered because of the splash hate for Affinity and graveyard decks. But at the very least it adds a few new wrinkles to the format. I suspect there will be at least one straight UB Tezz list that does well and one UBx Tezz. My money is on Grixis, because holy moley Ghirapur Aether Grid is stupid good with this combo.

However as good as the combo is, the absolute best answers for it didn't exist when it dominated Extended (not to mention that deck ran another combo that ignored artifact hate entirely). The fact that people moan about Ensnaring Bridge, Spellskite, and friends is laughable because they have been staples in the format for a while now, and as such people should deal with them accordingly. If anything, it will just diversify the hate used. Stony Silence is still the stone cold nuts against any of these decks, but sweepers like Creeping Corrosion, Hurkyl's Recall, Shatterstorm, Fracturing Gust, etc. will only increase in play as well.

Arsenal

04-07-2016, 09:50 AM

Ricardio

04-07-2016, 03:09 PM

Yeah, Stony Silence definitely gets a boost, which is nuts considering how prevalent it's already in sbs. Perhaps Rest in Peace sees uptick? RiP "deals" with Thopter Sword, PiF Storm, Melira Company, Living End quite well. If the BGx Tarmogoyf decks see resurgence, it's playable vs them too.

RIP is playable but it only truly neuters goyf and gives little disruption to their strategy as well as being super draw dependant because if they don't draw goyfs and kill you with everything else, you are the one resting in peace. I think rip is a bad card in modern because as weak as the cards are, most decks use the gy to some extant. those that don't are either poorly constructed or built on a simple, linear strategy to win the game combo style. gy is a resource that goes unused most often in modern and rip isn't at its best. cards like leyline of the void are also just not where you want to be unless more decks like living end and grixis control continue going the way they are. you 15 in modern are super stretched so each card has to be at its best or you are wasting the slot. Stony silence will be a hotter than previously commodity if people jam thopter/sword hard but what will people do to curb the potential INFINITE ancestral visions everyone assumes they will have to trudge through? Grab your ricochet traps, ladies and gents, we finna wrangle some visions of the ancestral variety.

TL;DR - RIP bad, change good. New things gonna happen.

Meekrab

04-08-2016, 11:04 PM

EpicLevelCommoner

09-07-2016, 02:19 PM

Im personally wondering about how to take Jund down a notch from its current 10% meta share as Tier 1 without much collateral damage if any.

I get that in both Legacy and Modern it is the "50-50/benchmark" deck, but the fact you can fine tune it to any meta to give you a slight advantage, especially multiplied by the popularity of the deck itself, and you get something like the following.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=28&start_date=08/13/2016&end_date=08/13/2016&start=1&finish=32&event_ID=47&city=SYracuse&limit=50

That's 3 Jund in top 8 and 5 in top 16.

I wanna say Liliana of the Veil, but I'm not so sure.

Bignasty197

09-07-2016, 10:52 PM

Call me crazy, but I've always wanted Tarmogoyf gone from Modern. Anyway, it seems like Jund just got Grim Flayer and uses it to some success and I think we should wait for the next block to see if things stay the same.

Phoenix Ignition

09-07-2016, 11:15 PM

Liliana's too fair and easy enough to hate, just play something like Obstinate Baloth and watch them cry.

Tarmogoyf I'd agree with but I think any random bannings on non-linear decks are going to cause way more turmoil than they're worth.

Timber

09-08-2016, 09:46 AM

I think banning something out of one of the very few fair decks in Modern is crazy.

EpicLevelCommoner

09-08-2016, 11:11 AM

I think banning something out of one of the very few fair decks in Modern is crazy.

Out of curiosity which archetypes would you consider unfair?

According to Modern Nexus's metagame results, the only Tier 1 decks I'd worry about being unfair are Dredge and Infect.

Spam

09-08-2016, 11:46 AM

I think modern needs more cards not less.
I can't see how killing a deck would improve the format right now.

Bignasty197

09-08-2016, 12:13 PM

To be clear, I don't think Jund is a problem. I just never liked Tarmogoyf in the format, period.

EpicLevelCommoner

09-08-2016, 07:56 PM

I think modern needs more cards not less.
I can't see how killing a deck would improve the format right now.

Jund is resilent as all hell: it already lost BBE and PFire and is still commanding a significant 10% portion of the overall metagame. I doubt losing either Lili 2.0 or Goyf would kill it (well maybe Goyf, but Goyf is in practically every noncombo green deck in modern so that is more of a mass deckicide).

I agree more cards would be nice, but right now they should have a target painted on Jund and the various flavors of aggro, whether they create new cards or ban old ones.

Dice_Box

09-08-2016, 08:15 PM

Fire took a hit thanks to Zoo, not Jund in Modern.

Jund is unlikely to see another hit in the format. It's a creature centric deck, just what Wizards wants.

Phoenix Ignition

09-08-2016, 08:31 PM

Out of curiosity which archetypes would you consider unfair?

According to Modern Nexus's metagame results, the only Tier 1 decks I'd worry about being unfair are Dredge and Infect.

I don't know the best way to describe fair vs. unfair, but I think the linearity of a deck is a decent way to look at it. How well rounded a deck is in general. Decks that don't seek out slowing down an opponent's gameplan might be the best metric, but also the ones that just slightly stall until they win (Scapeshift, sometimes storm).

Affinity is linear, its only purpose is to overwhelm the board and beat you to death with attacking. It can't win through other means, and has little to no disruption in its gameplan.

Dredge is linear, its gameplan has no consideration of the opponent's gameplan, and only really interacts with conflagrate (but normally that just goes face).

Infect, Burn, Storm, Scapeshift, Through the Breach Decks.

That's all I can think of right now. I by no means think things should be banned from these decks I'm just listing the unfair decks. Coincidentally, these decks can all lose to a single sideboard card, which keeps them in check (they'll have their own sideboard to fight yours, but if you can land a single card and protect it they usually can't beat you), and also separates linear decks from well-rounded ones. If the format has too many consistent linear decks then we start to run into a big problem, however, since even though you have the ability to beat any of them through sideboarding, you have to metagame correctly or get lucky matchups to not just straight up lose. That can be really frustrating, and in general makes formats less fun.

EpicLevelCommoner

09-10-2016, 12:28 PM

I don't know the best way to describe fair vs. unfair, but I think the linearity of a deck is a decent way to look at it. How well rounded a deck is in general. Decks that don't seek out slowing down an opponent's gameplan might be the best metric, but also the ones that just slightly stall until they win (Scapeshift, sometimes storm).

Affinity is linear, its only purpose is to overwhelm the board and beat you to death with attacking. It can't win through other means, and has little to no disruption in its gameplan.

Dredge is linear, its gameplan has no consideration of the opponent's gameplan, and only really interacts with conflagrate (but normally that just goes face).

Infect, Burn, Storm, Scapeshift, Through the Breach Decks.

That's all I can think of right now. I by no means think things should be banned from these decks I'm just listing the unfair decks. Coincidentally, these decks can all lose to a single sideboard card, which keeps them in check (they'll have their own sideboard to fight yours, but if you can land a single card and protect it they usually can't beat you), and also separates linear decks from well-rounded ones. If the format has too many consistent linear decks then we start to run into a big problem, however, since even though you have the ability to beat any of them through sideboarding, you have to metagame correctly or get lucky matchups to not just straight up lose. That can be really frustrating, and in general makes formats less fun.

That makes sense ... kinda reminds me of what someone said about how having a diverse metagame was bad. Of course that was pertaining to Yu-Gi-Oh! and its ridiculously fast-paced meta, but I believe it could apply to linear decks in Magic as well regardless of format.

In that case, Jund might be the backbone of Modern in a way that Miracles is kinda defining backbone of Legacy: you play it, best it, or best whatever bests it.

As such I believe the Modern ban list is fine except maybe Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon. Yes it's a sideboard strategy most of the time, but I would much rather have a reprint of Wasteland in a basics matter block: something that is less of a universal lockdown piece given the Modern metagame and its Turn 3/4 soft-rule and more of tempo-piece.

If not that then maybe a sorcery that's a backwards Path to Exile.

Dice_Box

10-28-2016, 08:05 AM

Got a question for the table.

I don't play Modern much anymore. There are two stores locally that run it and I have been to both for Modern once each over the last month and a bit. At both those stores though people are arguing that Dredge needs to take a hit. This is interesting, because it's coming from the "Competitive" store and the "Laid back" store. The two never tend to agree with the other.

Now being more or less out of the loop on all topics Modern, is Dredge really an issue? I don't know but with GP Brisbane coming up next February I should look at Modern with a critical eye and plan ahead. Are people just pissed about the new kid on the block or is this a real problem for the format?

Sidneyious

10-28-2016, 08:20 AM

@ Dice_Box

Dredge is a problem at my meta.

Edit
As for specific cards, and the current meta why are the 5 artifact lands still banned again?

What about chrome mox? It would be great to have a real mana rock for my tron deck.
Opal is only useful for affinity and barely usable for the near useless tezzerator.

All I know is that once I build a deck I like that a "top" deck something gets banned.

I bet if I got the extra cards I need to make my legacy affinity a modern legal version something will get banned in it.

Whitefaces

10-28-2016, 08:35 AM

The deck is really powerful, no denying that, but if people want to beat it they can beat it. The problem with this is people will be packing so much GY hate it pushes a lot of other decks out of the format. Modern has always had a strong reliance on the GY, but never enough for people to be playing too much, it's usually stuff like Snapcaster, Goyf, Unburial Rites etc. I'd like Dredge to take a hit personally. Not because it's insanely broken (though it's maybe the DTB atm), but for format diversity, to quote WotC.

Sidneyious

10-28-2016, 10:12 AM

I've read a few reports of modern dredge where the opponents hate did nothing to hinder the dredge player from winning.

Dice_Box

10-28-2016, 10:26 AM

I have also seen an Anger of the Gods cause all kinds of hell. Granted, that was a few months back but I don't know of any new creatures that can take that hit and live in the deck. I think the hate is context specific.

iatee

10-28-2016, 10:31 AM

I've played a lot of Modern Dredge. The deck is busted as hell and I expect a banning eventually.

Anger and Surgical are a lot better sb hate than RiP and Cage, since you play a ton of Naturalize effects in the board.

Phoenix Ignition

10-28-2016, 01:57 PM

If you're familiar with Legacy or Vintage dredge then you know the story about dredge in Modern. I think there are three major contributing factors to everyone hating it so much now:

1. Modern is full of linear decks that need hate. Dredge is no worse than Affinity, you can use sideboard to completely crush both of them, but it takes a lot of sideboard cards and there will be games you lose when you do play your sideboard cards. I really think Affinity is a perfect comparison, because it can fight through Stony Silence just like Dredge can still fight through a slew of sideboard hate. Now there's this critical mass of decks that you need hate against, and choosing which one (infect, affinity, burn, dredge, boggles) gets your sideboard slots is going to determine your tournament results and you might just hit the deck you expected you wouldn't for that auto-loss. We're at a critical mass of "must sideboard against" decks.

2. Dredge is the new kid on the block. Affinity has been in pretty much every top 8 of the format, is terribly linear, and requires dedicated hate to beat for almost every deck. It's just assumed that you'll need X slots to fight Affinity, which is very similar to Vintage's 6-8 sideboard for Dredge rule. You just follow the rule because otherwise you don't stand a chance. Infect is probably the best linear deck, with most sideboard cards barely slowing it down. I really don't think dredge is harder to fight than Infect or boggles, but since people are more used to the other ones, they'll complain about the new one that came in and ruined everything.

3. I think a lot of it is the playerbase. Losing to Dredge when you hit your graveyard hate in Vintage and Legacy happens all the time (especially Vintage). At no point are you safe against dredge in those formats until you hit your ~3rd lock piece. I think this idea is missed by Modern players who just expect to win once they hit their Anger of the Gods or Graffdigger's Cage. Does Dredge's resilience to this hate make it banworthy? I'd say no, because Affinity can get through Stony Silence and board wipers just as "easily."

Lastly, not entirely worth a 4th point, I think Modern players are super reluctant to run the best (symmetric) graveyard hate because every single deck exploits their own graveyard. Snapcaster Mage is in every blue deck, Tarmogoyf is in all green decks, Delve of some sort is in most black decks, some decks use Eternal Witness or something similar for card advantage. Kolagan's Command is a great card. Basically every non-linear deck is making use of graveyards and will refuse to use the best hate available to them because they can't afford to lose it when they're playing against other decks. I had Relic of Progenitus x3 in my Legacy Merfolk maindeck a long time ago. It's not that the means to fight dredge don't exist, it's just that no one wants to do it.

So overall there's just a lot of linear decks and making another powerful one doesn't help because 15 card sideboards are now not enough to fight all of them. I don't know how to fix the format but banning Dredge doesn't really fix the overarching problem, it'll just return when the next linear strategy emerges, and Wizards is hesitant to play Whack-a-mole with its ban list after all the previous fuss (I love when they ban stuff).

iatee

10-28-2016, 03:14 PM

Legacy dredge isn't great because
a. It doesn't just autowin g1 because there are enough combo decks out there
b. There are better ways to protect your Rest in Peace (FoW, Daze) and better ways to find your hate beyond 'mull like crazy'. So a few pieces of dredge hate goes further.

Vintage dredge is just crazy degenerate, and similar to Modern dredge no fair deck is ever going to win g1. There's also far less pure combo in Modern.

I think comparing it to Affinity makes sense, but the key difference is that Bolt+Snapcaster decks and BGx decks can take g1s from Affinity. Playing a ton of spot removal main can get you there vs Affinity. Infect - which is also probably 'too good', regardless - is in the same spot. But loading up on spot removal can't get you there g1 vs Dredge.

Mr. Safety

10-29-2016, 08:38 PM

Sidneyious

10-29-2016, 09:51 PM

Everything I would want to spend money on in modern gets a ban.

Pod, twin, I'm afraid to spend any more money in modern.

Phoenix Ignition

11-06-2016, 08:46 PM

Basically every non-linear deck is making use of graveyards and will refuse to use the best hate available to them because they can't afford to lose it when they're playing against other decks. I had Relic of Progenitus x3 in my Legacy Merfolk maindeck a long time ago. It's not that the means to fight dredge don't exist, it's just that no one wants to do it.

https://i.imgur.com/1xgZdDN.jpg

The deck that just won the GP.

CaptainTwiddle

11-18-2016, 09:08 PM

Everything I would want to spend money on in modern gets a ban.

Pod, twin, I'm afraid to spend any more money in modern.

I truly think we're at a point where you're pretty safe investing in almost any Modern deck. The only deck I could see buying into and getting totally blown out by bannings would be Tron, and that's only if WotC actually decided to ban the tron lands (or the entirety of 8th/9th Edition, as some people have suggested). That's really the only deck I can think of that doesn't transition well into other decks and is reliant entirely on a single card (well, set of 3 cards that all require each other). I could certainly see something getting banned from Infect of Dredge at some point, but I doubt it would be anything that nullifies the deck entirely.

CutthroatCasual

11-18-2016, 09:26 PM

https://i.imgur.com/1xgZdDN.jpg

The deck that just won the GP.

Yea and? Lantern stole a GP and it hasn't done anything since.

Lord Seth

12-04-2016, 03:44 AM

Another reason dredge struggles in legacy is the prominance of deathrite shaman, a card banned in modern. What modern does have is scavenging ooze, which is a little slower than rip/relic/surgical but incredibly good once active. I like the modern dredge deck, I hope it doesn't get hit with the banhammer.
Deathrite Shaman isn't the reason Dredge struggles in Legacy nowadays. In fact, Dredge was actually on the down low for a while... and then Deathrite Shaman got printed and Dredge came back. People cut down on graveyard hate, figuring the Shaman was enough, but Shaman only hits one card at a time and can't do anything until its caster's second turn, so it can very easily be too slow to really do much to stop Dredge.

It's true that Dredge declined considerably later on, but it's highly doubtful Deathrite Shaman caused it because it was actually quite good even while Deathrite Shaman was around.

Timber

12-06-2016, 01:47 PM

Mr. Safety

12-10-2016, 08:33 PM

Deathrite Shaman isn't the reason Dredge struggles in Legacy nowadays. In fact, Dredge was actually on the down low for a while... and then Deathrite Shaman got printed and Dredge came back. People cut down on graveyard hate, figuring the Shaman was enough, but Shaman only hits one card at a time and can't do anything until its caster's second turn, so it can very easily be too slow to really do much to stop Dredge.

It's true that Dredge declined considerably later on, but it's highly doubtful Deathrite Shaman caused it because it was actually quite good even while Deathrite Shaman was around.

Yeah, good points. I remember when folks were skimping on grave hate in sideboards and relying too heavily on drs. I was guilty of it for awhile.

Sidneyious

12-11-2016, 01:28 PM

I think Wizards could improve Modern through new cards, rather than bannings.

They could print some main deckable cards with incidental hate, rather than just printing obnoxiously narrow hate cards. Something like Anafenza, the Foremost or Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet.

I'd also like to see more Modern playable cards in UG, UB, and GR. I think it's kind of ridiculous that Bant, Mardu, Temur, and Esper have been mostly uncompetitive in Modern for years. However, with WotCs change in development for Standard, I don't see those color combinations getting any more competitive soon.
Mana leak
Remand
Spell pierce
Spell snare
Condescend
Cryptic command
Pact
Trickbind

Modern needs a true fow or an unconditional like counterspell.

There are other notable mentions that get some use in the form of 1 or 2 but they are not so helpful and you always wish they were something else.

Another thing, is chrome Mox that dangerous? It's obvious they don't want any kind of "fast mana".

They banned a rather decent all in one card(drs).
You have to be in green to get the other options for extra mana.
None of this helps t1 plays

Some counterspell were only good because of one deck and now what was a 75$ card is now a 15$ card(this is what keeps me from investing in modern, you don't have to play the top deck but the engine that gets banned leaves you with a pile of cards you paid to much for).

Esper trix, struggles badly.
Grixis control is just another Delver midrange deck and not a control deck.
We prison is somehow a control deck.
Uwr is the closest thing to a control deck IMO.
Lantern is a prison deck if it can get the engine rolling.
Grixis midrange is more control than midrange but more like a burn deck than a control deck.

Nothing to help a blue good stuff deck, if you see the amount of blue cards in "blue" decks it's not that much.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161211/b7b9026fbc92ea46ddbc97231597e3a5.jpg

mikesgordon

02-03-2017, 10:17 PM

Bump

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Whitefaces

02-04-2017, 04:33 AM

Bump

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Why?

Stuart

02-07-2017, 04:23 PM

Why?

I think he's suggesting that RB Burn is too strong (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222203) and needs a ban.

Mr. Safety

10-18-2017, 06:40 AM

Speculation on the hinted unbanning in yesterday's announcement? While I wish for a Jace unban, I think the more likely candidates are Splinter Twin or Bloodbraid Elf.

Whitefaces

10-18-2017, 07:11 AM

Speculation on the hinted unbanning in yesterday's announcement? While I wish for a Jace unban, I think the more likely candidates are Splinter Twin or Bloodbraid Elf.

Likewise, I'd love Jace, but I think it's way above the power level of the format.

Twin and BBE would be my bets as well, though I feel like SFM could come off too.

Ace/Homebrew

10-18-2017, 09:23 AM

Twin
I understand that many disagree with WotC's decision to ban Twin in the first place, but lets assume that if it was to be allowed back in the format, Wizards would only allow it if its meta penetration was drastically reduced from when it was the format's policeman.

Based on that assumption, what has changed or been printed that makes you think its numbers would be within a 'WotC acceptable' range?

Phoenix Ignition

10-18-2017, 10:38 AM

I only see BBE getting the unban. It was only ever in the format alongside Deathrite Shaman and if you compare it to other 4 drops that Jund would play it's about the same power level (obviously depending on the cascade). Without Deathrite Shaman they don't have the speed to just bury you like they used to.

I can't see an unban on Splinter Twin, definitely not happening with SfM (that card is so busted), Jace is the only other maybe, but I'd hate to see it without another reprint. JtMS wouldn't be unsafe it'd just be expensive as hell, and I think more people would complain from it being legal than it just living on the ban list.

Can you imagine if WotC unbanned Twin and then it took over the format again? That'd be some irreparable PR damage when they banned it a 2nd time.

Dice_Box

10-18-2017, 11:36 AM

I hope they do not unban BBE, I collect them and I would very much like not to have to spend out the arse for them.

Whitefaces

10-18-2017, 11:50 AM

I understand that many disagree with WotC's decision to ban Twin in the first place, but lets assume that if it was to be allowed back in the format, Wizards would only allow it if its meta penetration was drastically reduced from when it was the format's policeman.

Based on that assumption, what has changed or been printed that makes you think its numbers would be within a 'WotC acceptable' range?

Twins meta penetration was never that high, they banned it simply to shake up the format before the PT. It was one of the top performers, but never too dominant.

I only see BBE getting the unban. It was only ever in the format alongside Deathrite Shaman and if you compare it to other 4 drops that Jund would play it's about the same power level (obviously depending on the cascade). Without Deathrite Shaman they don't have the speed to just bury you like they used to.

I can't see an unban on Splinter Twin, definitely not happening with SfM (that card is so busted), Jace is the only other maybe, but I'd hate to see it without another reprint. JtMS wouldn't be unsafe it'd just be expensive as hell, and I think more people would complain from it being legal than it just living on the ban list.

Can you imagine if WotC unbanned Twin and then it took over the format again? That'd be some irreparable PR damage when they banned it a 2nd time.

I don't see SfM being too busted for Modern honestly. Push, Kommand, Gurmag/Shadow being bigger than skull, more combo decks...there's plenty of reasons that SfM wouldn't be overpowered that I can see. It's never had a chance in Modern though, so I could be well off base.

For Twin, was it ever taking over the format? It was always one of the best decks, but never head and shoulders above everything else. If it was unbanned and went back to how it was before, I don't see a problem with that.

Dice_Box

10-18-2017, 12:31 PM

The issue against Twin (Not that I care) is that people had to live in fear as of turn 3. So it's Tempo was second to none as players had to hold up removal all the time. The protection afforded against something like Inquisition after turn three could also suck. I think overall Modern can handle Twin just fine, but Modern players likely can't handle the fear involved in playing against Twin.

Phoenix Ignition

10-18-2017, 12:35 PM

I don't see SfM being too busted for Modern honestly. Push, Kommand, Gurmag/Shadow being bigger than skull, more combo decks...there's plenty of reasons that SfM wouldn't be overpowered that I can see. It's never had a chance in Modern though, so I could be well off base.
I think SfM was one of the first diversity killers in Legacy. It just gives blue shells too much of an ability to fight literally anything, and to do it pretty aggressively. Delver at least requires some deck building constraints, SfM lets you play a 4/4 lifelink on turn 3 every single game with the only constraint being you have to play a Batterskull in your deck, which is almost playable on its own. Throw in a Sword of F&F and your deck now takes on everything in the format that isn't combo or control. I think it would immediately become the best 2 cmc creature in the format and it would pretty quickly beat out midrange decks as the go to strategy since it is very easy to run counterspells alongside.

I'd enjoy if they unbanned it, I like playing decks with it, but it is too potent a threat for the deck requirements.

For Twin, was it ever taking over the format? It was always one of the best decks, but never head and shoulders above everything else. If it was unbanned and went back to how it was before, I don't see a problem with that.
No, actually I don't think it deserved the ban in the first place. There were many ways to deal with that deck, and since it was creature-based virtually every deck could interact with the combo. I just don't see them unbanning it so soon after banning it. If they unbanned it they would basically never be allowed to reban it again without looking horribly stupid, so it's just easier to leave on there.

Ace/Homebrew

10-18-2017, 12:36 PM

Twins meta penetration was never that high, they banned it simply to shake up the format before the PT. It was one of the top performers, but never too dominant.

Was it ever taking over the format? It was always one of the best decks, but never head and shoulders above everything else. If it was unbanned and went back to how it was before, I don't see a problem with that.

According to TCDecks:

January, 2015 - Birthing Pod banned in Modern
The Rock becomes top deck from January - March

April, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 156, next closest was The Rock with 145
May, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 93, next closest was The Rock with 85
June, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 139, next closest was Jund with 100
July, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 81, next closest was Jund with 79
August, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 81, next closest was Jund with 78
September, 2015 - Twin is 2nd deck with 57, Affinity was top deck with 63
October, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 94, next closest was Jund with 82
November, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 122, next closest was Red Deck Wins with 87
December, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 60, next closest was Red Deck Wins with 38

January, 2016 - Twin is banned and Eldrazi take over

Whitefaces

10-18-2017, 12:59 PM

I think SfM was one of the first diversity killers in Legacy. It just gives blue shells too much of an ability to fight literally anything, and to do it pretty aggressively. Delver at least requires some deck building constraints, SfM lets you play a 4/4 lifelink on turn 3 every single game with the only constraint being you have to play a Batterskull in your deck, which is almost playable on its own. Throw in a Sword of F&F and your deck now takes on everything in the format that isn't combo or control. I think it would immediately become the best 2 cmc creature in the format and it would pretty quickly beat out midrange decks as the go to strategy since it is very easy to run counterspells alongside.

I'd enjoy if they unbanned it, I like playing decks with it, but it is too potent a threat for the deck requirements.

No, actually I don't think it deserved the ban in the first place. There were many ways to deal with that deck, and since it was creature-based virtually every deck could interact with the combo. I just don't see them unbanning it so soon after banning it. If they unbanned it they would basically never be allowed to reban it again without looking horribly stupid, so it's just easier to leave on there.

Hm, convincing argument against SfM, fair enough!

I agree with you on Twin too, it's an awkward position. It was so dumb to ban it in the first place :(

According to TCDecks:

January, 2015 - Birthing Pod banned in Modern
The Rock becomes top deck from January - March

April, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 156, next closest was The Rock with 145
May, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 93, next closest was The Rock with 85
June, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 139, next closest was Jund with 100
July, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 81, next closest was Jund with 79
August, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 81, next closest was Jund with 78
September, 2015 - Twin is 2nd deck with 57, Affinity was top deck with 63
October, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 94, next closest was Jund with 82
November, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 122, next closest was Red Deck Wins with 87
December, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 60, next closest was Red Deck Wins with 38

January, 2016 - Twin is banned and Eldrazi take over

Fair enough to you too, I didn't look at the numbers clearly, just anecdotal from playing quite a lot of modern around that time. Though some of those margins with the second deck are close, it's hard to really say if it was 'dominating'.

Ace/Homebrew

10-18-2017, 01:04 PM

Fair enough to you too, I didn't look at the numbers clearly, just anecdotal from playing quite a lot of modern around that time. Though some of those margins with the second deck are close, it's hard to really say if it was 'dominating'.
I was going to say we need to define dominating to discuss further. :wink:
I greatly miss the deck! It was a bye for me. Smallpox destroyed them.

Mr. Safety

10-19-2017, 07:28 AM

I think SfM was one of the first diversity killers in Legacy. It just gives blue shells too much of an ability to fight literally anything, and to do it pretty aggressively. Delver at least requires some deck building constraints, SfM lets you play a 4/4 lifelink on turn 3 every single game with the only constraint being you have to play a Batterskull in your deck, which is almost playable on its own. Throw in a Sword of F&F and your deck now takes on everything in the format that isn't combo or control. I think it would immediately become the best 2 cmc creature in the format and it would pretty quickly beat out midrange decks as the go to strategy since it is very easy to run counterspells alongside.

I'd enjoy if they unbanned it, I like playing decks with it, but it is too potent a threat for the deck requirements.

No, actually I don't think it deserved the ban in the first place. There were many ways to deal with that deck, and since it was creature-based virtually every deck could interact with the combo. I just don't see them unbanning it so soon after banning it. If they unbanned it they would basically never be allowed to reban it again without looking horribly stupid, so it's just easier to leave on there.

I agree on SFM. Yes KCommand is a card, but SFM makes cheap counters like Dispel and Stubborn Denial even BETTER. BSkull even provides your perfect enabler for Denial. I think SFM getting unbanned single-handedly raises the value of tempo-based blue/white cards. I think Burn as a deck disappears almost overnight.

I also liked Twin in the format, even though I never played it myself. My dislike for Birthing Pod was much higher before that ban. Twin is the perfect combo deck for modern: instant-win but easily interacted with by establishing sound deckbuilding. I lost a bunch to twin, but I won a fair share against it too.

Lord Seth

10-21-2017, 01:25 AM

According to TCDecks:

January, 2015 - Birthing Pod banned in Modern
The Rock becomes top deck from January - March

April, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 156, next closest was The Rock with 145
May, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 93, next closest was The Rock with 85
June, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 139, next closest was Jund with 100
July, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 81, next closest was Jund with 79
August, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 81, next closest was Jund with 78
September, 2015 - Twin is 2nd deck with 57, Affinity was top deck with 63
October, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 94, next closest was Jund with 82
November, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 122, next closest was Red Deck Wins with 87
December, 2015 - Twin is top deck with 60, next closest was Red Deck Wins with 38

January, 2016 - Twin is banned and Eldrazi take overSo, Twin was pretty consistently a good deck, but never really a dominant one, not even keeping the top spot in one of those cases (if memory serves right, Miracles never lost the top spot after Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were banned).

It did rise up a bit towards the end, with a larger gap between it and the second place deck (up until that point it was usually close), but I think a lot of that was the fact Amulet Bloom had gained some popularity and Twin was one of the best decks at beating it.

Mr. Safety

10-23-2017, 09:42 AM

My money is on Jace being unbanned. I picked one up in a trade, and I already have a set of Bloodbraid Elf stashed away if that's the one that's unbanned. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see both come off at the same time, considering the history they share of off-setting each other.

Any speculation on getting both BBE and Jace back? Or did my wake-and-bake influence me too much?

Ace/Homebrew

10-23-2017, 11:51 AM

I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see both come off at the same time, considering the history they share of off-setting each other.
I'd say you found a good level. :wink:
I hadn't considered both as a possibility, but you raise a good point about them being checks for each other.

Mr. Safety

10-23-2017, 01:46 PM

I think the best argument for them is that neither actually win the game on the spot, not like Twin. Yes, both can be strong points of inevitability if you build your deck to establish it. I don't think people will play ramp spells/creatures to enable t3 BBE/Jace, its just better to play more powerful cards and naturally play them on t4 (generalization of course.) I think the format is fast enough to effectively deal with both the card advantage and threat of both cards. Honestly, BBE into KCommand is a lot scarier than Jace, but still not that scary, not when Storm can win faster, Tron destroys Jund, and Burn can easily outrace it. Just some further thoughts on it, here's hoping for some shakeup soon!

Phoenix Ignition

10-24-2017, 05:42 PM

I don't think JTMS would be particularly broken in Modern, but it seems like one of those safer if left out cards. The main reason is it costs so much that if they have to ban it people will be even more angry than usual.

But in terms of power it seems fairly safe. JTMS has always suffered against creature swarm metas and Modern has a lot of that going on.

Mr. Safety

10-26-2017, 09:26 AM

I agree with you about the cost vs. reward scenario (what if it gets banned again, and it's already $60 roughly, it will only go up to $100+ if it gets unbanned.) Regardless of whether its safe or not, those factors will likely keep it banned. Limited availability is also a significant part of it. I just reallllly want to play Jace in modern, lol.

I actually think Jace would make UWx control a tier 1-2 deck. Not overpowered mind you, just really good. Ancestral Visions and Jace together make for a potent draw engine, which allows the terrible counterspells in the format to actually do what they need to: stall long enough to establish inevitability. Now your best play after suspending an Ancestral is what, t5 Supreme Verdict/Cryptic Command/Gideon variant? Those are already really good plays, possibly better than Jace depending on matchups.

I think the scariest part is the miracle cards with Jace. Serum Visions isn't a very good way to set up miracles, or someone would do it already, but having the Brainstorm effect turns on Terminus and Entreat the Angels. It seems good, but not necessarily better than a t4 Grapeshot/Living End/double Death's Shadow + Stubborn Denial. I could be wrong and active Terminus in the format may be just way OP.