[INN]Mad Labs

[Darkenslight]

Here's a potential Decklist for the card Lab Maniac. Laboratory Maniac turns the mill loss into a win. With that in mind, here's a basic list:

Lands (20)

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
12 Island

Creatures (8)

4 Hedron Crab
4 Laboratory Maniac

Protection (14)

4 Disrupt
4 Force of Will
2 Swiftfoot Boots
4 Lightning Greaves

Combo (10)

4 Thought Lash
4 Leveler
2 Paradigm Shift

Draw (8)

4 Preordain
4 Ponder

SB (15)

4 Ravenous Trap
4 Arcane Laboratory
4 Pithing Needle
3 Meta slot


The reason both Lightning Greaves AND Swiftfoot boots are in is to protect your Maniac from spot removal. I'm also not entirely convinced by the Paradigm Shift slot, as I'm wondering if more draw is needed or not.#

Thoughts/critiques are, as always, appreciated.

[Aspirin]

How about Doomsday? I'm considering to include Laboratory Maniac in my Doomsday-Emrakul deck.

[3eowulf]

I would try both Lantern of Insight and Sensei's Divining Top since they combo with Thought Lash.

Also, what's the use for Crab?

[Scordata]

Needs more divining witch. Get leveler out of there. Just sayin.

[(nameless one)]

Divining Witch>Thought Cast. At least Divining Witch can find the other combo piece.

[PyreDream]

Sol lands seem like a requirement in this kind of deck. Mad lab guy, greaves/boots and Thought Lash all benefit tremendously from them.

Moxes of the Diamond and Chrome variety are also begging for consideration.

[Michael Keller]

I built a deck similar to this a few years back.

With Thought Lash and a card like Lantern of Insight/Field of Dreams/Soothsaying, etc., you should look at Timesifter. It was a casual deck at best even when Mana Drain was legal, so I'm not sure how well that will work.

[Scordata]

Divining Witch is half the wincon. Not only does it tutor for the blue bear, but after Maniac is on the field, you activate witch and name black lotus or vizzerdrix. cast a cantrip and win.

[Darkenslight]

How about Doomsday? I'm considering to include Laboratory Maniac in my Doomsday-Emrakul deck.


Needs more divining witch. Get leveler out of there. Just sayin.

When I initially saw Lab Maniac, I was thinking either Mono-U or U/b. The Leveler does exactly what I need to win, but I was thinking about Grand Architect and going for a Stax variant with a combo-kill.

Which ties into...


Sol lands seem like a requirement in this kind of deck. Mad lab guy, greaves/boots and Thought Lash all benefit tremendously from them.

Moxes of the Diamond and Chrome variety are also begging for consideration.

I wasn't sure about this, but if I'm going for the U/B there's definitely two cards to consider: Dark Confidant and the Divining Witch. I also wasn't sure of the Sol Lands, which may or may not be worth it. I'll mock it up and playtest it as both Mono-U with Sols and U/B. I'm guessing Disrupt becomes discard at that point, and one of the fetches changes to Delta (Probably the Tarn, given that you can misrepresent your deck with the Rainforest.)


I would try both Lantern of Insight and Sensei's Divining Top since they combo with Thought Lash.

Also, what's the use for Crab?

Crab is there as a dual-purpose dude: for self-milling and to eat Edicts (which get around the untargetability given by the boots.) I think that the Top might be the better of the two, as it allows me to get around the CU on the Lash, at least for a couple of turns.

So the potential changes are as follows:

(Sol-U)

-2 Scalding Tarn
-8 Island
+4 Ancient Tomb
+4 City of Traitors

-4 Disrupt
+4 Chrome Mox
+2 meta slot (Propaganda/Arcane Lab/something else)

(U/B)

-4 Scalding Tarn
-5 Island
+4 Polluted Delta
+4 USea
+1 Swamp

-4 Hedron Crab
-4 Leveler
-4 Disrupt
+4 Divining Witch (aka Hag with Rod)
+4 Dark Confidant
+4 Discard (Duress/TS)

[Richard Cheese]

Why not just put him in Painted Stone? Am I missing something here?

[Scordata]

I thought about squeezing him into the painter combo, but you end up cutting countermagic or cantrips to make him fit. Bad idea.
Good idea: ub control shell with a combo finish.

[Darkenslight]

Why not just put him in Painted Stone? Am I missing something here?

You only have two ways of protecting him, and 4 cards that directly find him in Painted Stone. It's definitely a possibility, and I have considered it as an alternative. For now, though, I'd like to stick with this to see if it's remotely viable.

[Ben]

I would splah black for Divining Witch as mentioned above and maybe some Spoils of the Vault (yah I know you might die but at least you get a chance to find whatever you need with at most 19 draws).
They are both good ways for you to tutor up Laboratory Maniac.

With only four copies of Maniac in the deck you really need some ways to make sure you can find them just in case you cant draw them. After all without Maniac you cant win the game

If you intend to cast Leveler or Thought Lash faster, adding 3X City or Traitors is also a good idea (also enables turn 2 Maniac).

I am still not really sold on this combo though... it is quite easy to disrrupt the set up and may potentially leaveing you without any cards in library for you to recover.

[Wanderlust]

This is a mana hungry combo, no matter what pieces it includes. I think it needs 24-26 mana sources (including moxen). Painter's combo is less hungry and still, the most successful variant plays 24-25 sources (21 to 22 lands and 3 mox opal). That would be my first suggestion to improve the opening list.

[ActionJunkie]

Great start.

IMO, Leveler seems to be the most important part. You only need to resolve Leveler and if you don't have a draw spell such as Gitaxian Probe, Street Wraith, or Jace 2.0 then you get a 10/10 blocker until the next turn when you win. Also 5cc artifact creature is pretty easy to ramp in Legacy (perhaps even Goblin Welder).

Also Mental Misstep seems like a good addition as you might need protection for the Maniac after you cast Leveler. Misstep will cover the most prominant removal spells, StP and Lighting Bolt.

Those are my thoughts but haven't tried a deck list YET. Thought Lash seems to have potential too especially being blue. Diving Witch is "ok" but not sure there's room especially if you are running Gitaxian Probe and/or Street Wraith. Paradigm Shift is probably too "cute" unless somehow you can work in Relic of Progenitus.

[Darkenslight]

Okay:

Taking into consideration the input above, I'm looking at this list:

Lands:(22)

2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

Combo: (10)

4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Thought Lash
2 Leveler

Dig: (10)

4 Divining Witch
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Intuition

Protection: (14)

4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Greaves
4 Intervene
2 Disrupt

Accel: (4)

4 Chrome Mox

So, why Intervene? As you well know, both the key digging AND the central part of the combo are creatures, which in Legacy will go farming, take a Bolt to the face, or have a contract taken out on them. Disrupt is there as a stalling technique, as you don't want games going past turn 4.

Potential others:

Ancestral Knowledge: Does what the Witch does, but only for the top 10 cards. CU is a bit of a downer, but I suppose I can live with that.

Cryptic Command: Pricey, but it's a Swiss Army Knife of a spell.

Confound: Intervene that cantrips. Might actually be more useful than Intervene, due to the cantrip.

[Darkenslight]

Okay:

Taking into consideration the input above, I'm looking at this list:

Lands:(22)

2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

Combo: (10)

4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Thought Lash
2 Leveler

Dig: (10)

4 Divining Witch
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Intuition

Protection: (14)

4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Greaves
4 Intervene
2 Disrupt

Accel: (4)

4 Chrome Mox

So, why Intervene? As you well know, both the key digging AND the central part of the combo are creatures, which in Legacy will go farming, take a Bolt to the face, or have a contract taken out on them. Disrupt is there as a stalling technique, as you don't want games going past turn 4.

Potential others:

Ancestral Knowledge: Does what the Witch does, but only for the top 10 cards. CU is a bit of a downer, but I suppose I can live with that.

Cryptic Command: Pricey, but it's a Swiss Army Knife of a spell.

Confound: Intervene that cantrips. Might actually be more useful than Intervene, due to the cantrip.

[Scordata]

1. No brainstorm in a combo deck?
2. Only 16 Blue cards for Fow?
3. Chrome Mox? AND Force of Will?

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Janky Counterspell du jour
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Devining Witch
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Dark Confidant
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
2 Swamp
3 Ancient Tomb

You could also splash green for Worldly Tutor/sideboard tech. Hymn to Tourach is probably an OK fit somewhere too. Decks like this need to have a plan B. Tombstalker in the sb?

[Benie Bederios]

Hmphf, wouldn't it be better just to play with 4 Witch and 2 Maniac's and no Lash?

A combo with only 6 cards. The rest could just be awesome control cards and carddraw.

On another note, has anybody came up with a good Doomsday Pile? I can't think of one that is better then already exsiting ones. The cheapest I found was 3 mana, but you have to pass your turn without cards in hand and on 7 life. Not really viable.

[ActionJunkie]

I've been playtesting combo a lot lately in Legacy and can not stress enough the importance of "protection" and "consistency" if you want to be competitive. Above is a lot of solid ideas but they are lacking in both protection and consistency, imo.

Here's my shot. Will try to find time to playtest in the near future and report back.

Combo:
4 2U Lab Maniac
4 5 Leveler

Tutor/Consistency:
4 U Brainstorm
4 U Gitaxian Probe
1 1 Sen Diving Top
3 G Worldly Tutor

Utility (Tutor/Consistency/Protection)
4 1U Snapcaster Mage
3 2UU Jace 2.0

Protection:
4 U Mental Misstep
4 3UU FoW
1 G Xantid Swarm

Land:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Misty Rainforest
4 U/X fetch land
4 Tropical Island
2 Breeding Pool
6 Island

Lab Maniac is THE card for the deck which means tutoring/finding/protecting is priority one. There are other builds where you can get away with different things but you would need to add another win condition.

Worldly Tutor is awesome for this deck as it tutors for both parts of the combo. And there are a ton of "draw a card" cards that allow you to get the piece after casting the tutor. In addition you can search up Xantid Swarm if you are playing against non-agro or Snapcaster Mage (see below).

No one thought of Snapcaster Mage? :wink: this thing is going to see soooo much play in Legacy and is an All-Star here as it gives nearly half of your deck flashback w/ all of them having a low cc.

I guess this deck has another win condition in Jace 2.0 x3. Brainstorm will be what he's mostly used for and also cool as he can give you the win if you resolve Leveler w/ the Maniac in play. Not entirely sold on Jace 2.0 here but he seems sooo versatile and best not to underestimate Jace 2.0. If you would remove him, 3 more protection spells would probably be best though there is a good amount of protection when you consider Snapcaster Mage can flashback your Mental Missteps and there is a ton of search so you will mostly likely see multiple Maniacs.

Mental Misstep is a must as it counters StP and Lightning Bolt which are in a ton of decks. Free spells are exactly what you need when you tap out to cast Leveler or an early Maniac.

Realize if you resolve a Leveler w/ a Maniac in play you have to wait a whole turn (hoping a 10/10 can serve as a game-saving blocker :wink:) UNLESS you have a way to draw. This is why at least 1 Top, Jace 2.0 and Brainstorm are key. Gitaxian Probe seems like a perfect fit too as it's free to cast and you get to see their hand.

Don't forget fetch-lands are very important in a deck like this... pop them at the most opportunistic time!

EDIT: Change x1 Xantid Swarm to x1 Vexing Swisher.

[Pinder]

Crumbling Sanctuary seems like it could be interesting here. It buys you a ton of time and makes it so attacking you feeds your win condition. That said, it seems like it would be most effective at slowing down aggro until you can hit your combo, and it might be to slow for that.

[Ben]

Thought Lash would be better in that case... it costs less and mills yourself even faster with the damage prevented

[Pinder]

Oops, I didn't read past the cumulative upkeep part because I figured that was the only part that was relevant. Well, that'll teach me.

[kiblast]

Since we can make the combo work with creatures only (and Thought Lash as a side enabler) would'nt be interesting to run Aether Vials to put Laboratory Maniac, Divining Witch and Snapcaster Mage directly into play?

Also Worldly Tutor seems a good choice (plus Snapcaster lets us play it again eot).

Gitaxian makes Worldy Tutor better.

Let's say:

Creatures 15:

4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Divining Witch
3 Coiling Oracle ( cantrips, chumpblocks, pitches to Fow and feeds Therapy, brainstorm tricks)

Draw / Tutors 12:

4 Worldy Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe

Vials 4:

4 Aether Vial

Protection 11:

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Cabal Therapy

Lands 18:

2 Basics
9 UBG Fetchlands
7 UBG Duals

Note: the manabase can be tweaked to fit Imperial Recruiter which substantially tutors every creature we need.

[HokusSchmokus]

Why don't just run Lab Maniac in a Cephalid Breakfast Shell?

[death]

One reason is that this combo is invulnerable to graveyard hate, another reason is that this deck has potentially a bigger room to pack protection, unlike Breakfast.

[ActionJunkie]

The thing about Divining Witch is that it's vunerable in THREE aspects:

1. Resolving
2. Has to stay alive another turn (also slows combo an additional turn unless it's resolved very early which you shouldn't count on)
3. Has to activate successfully... there is hate out there against that.

I'm not saying it isn't viable, but give me Leveler any day as it only has to resolve and you get a fattie 10/10 blocker if you can't win that turn w/ a draw spell. ...well worth 5 generic artifact/creature mana vs. 1B and an activation of 1B the next turn.

Divining Witch seems more of a 1-of or something that is worked in after extensive playtesting.

I like Vial especially if you can work in Goblin Welder w/ Leveler.

[death]

Those are absolutely the reasons why I think testing Divining Witch would be a complete waste of time. I think that Thought Lash is the card that R&D would like to break with Lab Maniac. It's ability to protect you from lethal damage and win on the spot with Lab Maniac in play is insane.

Thought Lash's ability can be activated at anytime, much like Nomads/Shaman en-kor. It doesn't have to be sacrificed only during your upkeep, you can empty your library anytime and win via Gitaxian Probe/Brainstorm/or Ponder.

Here's my first take on the deck, gave it a couple of runs in MWS and it played very well. I had good opening hands, mulliganed to six twice.

The deck is weak against discard. Force and MisD are there against Team America and the likes, you need to watch out for Extirpate though.


4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac

4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Misdirection

4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Crystal Vein
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island


I prefer Crystal Vein over City of Traitors because it's reusable in cases where you EOT Intuition for Thought Lash and then cast it main phase.

[AllIsDust]

Is leveler really better than Mirror of fate?

[Draener]

All of the win condition's in this deck are creatures. What does it matter if they bolt divining witch? Then they don't bolt the mage and just make you lose. Following this train of thought, you should add more must remove creatures and overload their removal. Thus, I suggest adding Dark Confidant to the deck, as well as cabal therapy and duress/thought seize. Cabal therapies would allow you to sac dark confidants or divining witches after you complete your combo.

[Michael Keller]

Why don't you just run Laboratory Maniac in a Painter's Servant-Grindstone shell with Imperial Recruiter to fetch either combo piece? This gives you a dual-win condition against decks running Emrakul (as you can 'Grind yourself out), and if an opponent isn't running Emrakul, then you just 'Grind them out and win anyways. You can still run cards like Thought Lash assuming you want to go that route as its own separate win-condition with Maniac.

Cards like Leveler and Thought Lash require serious consideration and setup and are basically dead draws assuming you don't have Laboratory Maniac in play. If you're going to play Leveler, at least consider Torpor Orb for Christ's sake.

[Darkenslight]

The thing about Divining Witch is that it's vunerable in THREE aspects:

1. Resolving
2. Has to stay alive another turn (also slows combo an additional turn unless it's resolved very early which you shouldn't count on)
3. Has to activate successfully... there is hate out there against that.

I'm not saying it isn't viable, but give me Leveler any day as it only has to resolve and you get a fattie 10/10 blocker if you can't win that turn w/ a draw spell. ...well worth 5 generic artifact/creature mana vs. 1B and an activation of 1B the next turn.

Divining Witch seems more of a 1-of or something that is worked in after extensive playtesting.

I like Vial especially if you can work in Goblin Welder w/ Leveler.

...Which is why the original list included Shroud/Hexproof boots - you thought they were just there for padding? The Haste helps massively, as well.


All of the win condition's in this deck are creatures. What does it matter if they bolt divining witch? Then they don't bolt the mage and just make you lose. Following this train of thought, you should add more must remove creatures and overload their removal. Thus, I suggest adding Dark Confidant to the deck, as well as cabal therapy and duress/thought seize. Cabal therapies would allow you to sac dark confidants or divining witches after you complete your combo.

Which makes sense, but then you also have to consider what to cut. The second list I devised used Intervene, but Confound might actually be better.

[ActionJunkie]

...Which is why the original list included Shroud/Hexproof boots - you thought they were just there for padding? The Haste helps massively, as well.



Which makes sense, but then you also have to consider what to cut. The second list I devised used Intervene, but Confound might actually be better.

With Haste, the Divining Witch cost 2BB and is still vunerable to "activation hate"... yeah I'd rather have a 5cc generic artifact mana that only needs to resolve.


If you're going to play Leveler, at least consider Torpor Orb for Christ's sake.

Torper Orb is dumb in this deck unless you are running x1 Lab Maniac and it's like your third win option.


Is leveler really better than Mirror of fate?

Leveler is easily better than Mirror of Fate because

1. Leveler is easier to tutor
2. Leveler does not have an activation (but does have a CIP)
3. Leveler can be creature animated from GY
4. Leveler serves as a 10/10 blocker if you can't go off the turn you cast him


Why don't you just run Laboratory Maniac in a Painter's Servant-Grindstone shell with Imperial Recruiter to fetch either combo piece? This gives you a dual-win condition against decks running Emrakul (as you can 'Grind yourself out), and if an opponent isn't running Emrakul, then you just 'Grind them out and win anyways.

It's possible this could work in Painter-Grindstone but it seems like win-more... is worth testing.


All of the win condition's in this deck are creatures. What does it matter if they bolt divining witch? Then they don't bolt the mage and just make you lose. Following this train of thought, you should add more must remove creatures and overload their removal. Thus, I suggest adding Dark Confidant to the deck, as well as cabal therapy and duress/thought seize. Cabal therapies would allow you to sac dark confidants or divining witches after you complete your combo.

This is probably the best argument for Divining Witch. However, in a blue shell it seems easier to replace creatures with combo protection. Dark Confidant is interesting but I'm going to test a blue shell first splashing Worldly Tutor and a Vexing Swisher (see the decklist I posted earlier).

[death]

Trollshroud boots makes the deck clunky, it will only protect your creatures from spells your opponent doesn't have YET. If they have it then they'll just burn/remove your creature in response to equip. No profit there. Mental Misstep and Misdirection are way better.

With regards to Leveler (mana cost :5:) I'm guessing it'll be hard staying alive for ~5 turns against aggro to reach that 5 mana threshold. Self-inflicted damage from Ancient Tombs will also speed up their clock.

I played against Merfolk and I barely survived his attacks. Facing Daze + Cursecatcher + Wasteland, I managed to win by slipping through an Intuition for Thought Lash and casting it on my first main phase, Lab maniac already on the board.

I'm playing 4x Chrome Mox 4x Ancient Tomb 2x Crystal Vein and even with those resources I feel I don't have time to have access to 5 mana against aggro decks.

[ActionJunkie]

With regards to Leveler (mana cost :5:) I'm guessing it'll be hard staying alive for ~5 turns against aggro to reach that 5 mana threshold. Self-inflicted damage from Ancient Tombs will also speed up their clock.

I played against Merfolk and I barely survived his attacks. Facing Daze + Cursecatcher + Wasteland, I managed to win by slipping through an Intuition for Thought Lash and casting it on my first main phase, Lab maniac already on the board.

I'm playing 4x Chrome Mox 4x Ancient Tomb 2x Crystal Vein and even with those resources I feel I don't have time to have access to 5 mana against aggro decks.

/Agree which is why a Grand Architech or similar build (or maybe Goblin Welder/Reanimate) may be best for Leveler + Labatory Maniac.

But, 4x Mental Misstep is a must for this deck and Cursecatcher is probably the best target against Merfolk as we should be able to go off before Aether Vial becomes a problem. Merfolk should actually be an easier matchup. Team America is the one that seems to be a bitch on paper.

Think I'm playtesting Legacy tonight (depending on a friend) and going to try to work in the "Mad Labs" build I listed on page 1 - will report back any findings.

[Darkenslight]

/Agree which is why a Grand Architech or similar build (or maybe Goblin Welder/Reanimate) may be best for Leveler + Labatory Maniac.

But, 4x Mental Misstep is a must for this deck and Cursecatcher is probably the best target against Merfolk as we should be able to go off before Aether Vial becomes a problem. Merfolk should actually be an easier matchup. Team America is the one that seems to be a bitch on paper.

Think I'm playtesting Legacy tonight (depending on a friend) and going to try to work in the "Mad Labs" build I listed on page 1 - will report back any findings.

That's fair enough. I've been looking at Grand Architect for a Modern build, but wasn't too sure about Legacy...

Land:

3 Ancient Tomb
4 Crystal Vein
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest

Creatures:

4 Grand Architect
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Leveler
4 Snapcaster Mage

Spells:

4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe (maybe change to another artifact)
2 meta slot

[Richard Cheese]

The problem is that Painter/Grindstone is easily the most effective mill strategy available, but even in existing Painter builds, Maniac is not as good of an out against Emrakul/etc. as Crypt or Relic.

[death]

Painter can easily be overwhelmed with creatures and it has no other way of protecting itself other than red blasts and Servant needs to stick for that to be effective in the first place.

With Thought Lash you can sustain the damage, it's like Solitary Confinement and when you land it you just wait till you find your win con. I'm not saying it's the bomb right now, but it is really a new, cool way of winning at Magic.

[Richard Cheese]

Just a thought...4 horsemen shell? With monolith/orb you can mill yourself until you hit 3 Narcomebas, Dread Return, and Maniac, then win. I mean it would basically be the exact same deck, except you drop Emrakul, Blasting Station, and Sharuum for Maniac and 2 more search/protection spells. Or I guess you could leave Emrakul in to get the most out of Cabal Therapy.

Edit: Just re-read maniac and realized you would have to go off at the end of your opponent's turn, making Emrakul a no-go. Still seems decent though.

[ActionJunkie]

That's fair enough. I've been looking at Grand Architect for a Modern build, but wasn't too sure about Legacy...

Land:

3 Ancient Tomb
4 Crystal Vein
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest

Creatures:

4 Grand Architect
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Leveler
4 Snapcaster Mage

Spells:

4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe (maybe change to another artifact)
2 meta slot

This build is intriguing.

Um, quick update. Playtested the build I posted on page 1 (took out Jace 2.0) which is very similar to the above except

-4 Intuition
-4 Chrome Mox
-4 Grand Architect

+4 Worldy Tutor
+4 Mental Misstep
+1 Spellskite
+1 Xantid Swarm
+1 Divining Top
(24 land - 4 Tomb, 4 Tropical, 8 fetch, 8 Island)

We got in 6 games w/ me playing this and my friend playing the Merfolk deck that top-2 Sunday @ SC Open. First game, I won turn 4! ...ended up winning 4 of 6 which is a damn good start for a first build though obviously an extremely small and limited sample.

Worldly Tutor + Brainstorm/Gitaxian Probe (option of being free is huge) + Fetchlands is crazy good for this deck. It's practically a lock to have the 2 card combo in your hand by 4th turn every game with FoW and/or Mental Misstep backup. Also don't fret if you get a Maniac countered/killed as it is super easy to dig for another or Worldly Tutor.

Worldly Tutor is also insane with Snapcaster Mage as you make-up for the card disadvantage (Brainstorm/Probe), use as utility/protection on a Misstep or if you lose a Maniac, dig for another! Still not sure if running x1 Xantid Swarm or x1 Vexing Swisher is good but seems like x1 Spellskite is solid.

Planning on extensive future testing and perhaps try Architect. Doubt I'll give Intuition a shot because of how awesome the Worldy Tutor + Snapcaster Mage interactions seem to work.

[Sempra]

nice build action. it seems that the g/u sheel is faster and more stable. but i like the u/b sheel for its protection and permission! and im not sure i understand why u dont play Thought Lash ? i can see playing 1 or 2 levelers as a fetch for worldly but isent a resolved lash just gg vs almost any aggro deck?

[Firefraise]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5979-Deck-Thoughtless-Sensei-(with-primer)

Here's a deck with Thought Lash in it. Maybe we should see if there's some tech to retrive in this old thread.

I do feel Sensei diving top may be needed as it let us choose which card we exile and which card we draw once thought Lash is online. If SDT's there maybe the combo could be played along side a counterbalance defense device.

I also feel that Remand is needed. Once our library is empty it allows us to win in response to any spell that treatens maniac.

[ActionJunkie]

nice build action. it seems that the g/u sheel is faster and more stable. but i like the u/b sheel for its protection and permission! and im not sure i understand why u dont play Thought Lash ? i can see playing 1 or 2 levelers as a fetch for worldly but isent a resolved lash just gg vs almost any aggro deck?

Thanks.

You could try it. But w/ x4 Leveler, x4 Maniac + x4 Worldly with the library manipulation from Brainstorm (option of Snapcaster Flash-Back) + Fetchland, getting to a Leveler was more and extremely consistant. If you put in a Thought Lash, it would feel so random and might dilute the synergy of playing 8 combo creature parts and 4 tutors that double as utililty (protection/additional Maniacs). Also there was at least one game where two Ancient Tombs were tapped to cast a Leveler.

Maybe Thought Lash in SB or main-deck some # against a really heavy agro meta... keep in mind this extremely prelimary testing.

My goal was to see if it's viable and it sure seems to work and did well against Merfolk.


I also feel that Remand is needed. Once our library is empty it allows us to win in response to any spell that treatens maniac.

Keep in mind with the Leveler build, you go off turn 4/5 and are tapped out so no option for Remand. Gitaxian Probe is only answer (or Street Wraith if you can fit it in) or wait another turn w/ a 10/10 blocker as protection (and hopefully holding free Mental Missteps or FoW).

[Darkenslight]

Hmm...what about this for a potential sideboard:

4 Thought Lash
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Trygon Predator
3 Research

EDIT: hmm, don't think Research works like I want it to in this case.

[tsabo_tavoc]

For those playing Leveler, are you serious? It costs 5! Thought Lash is a more respectable idea, but 4cc is still steep. On the other hand, Divining Witch is a 1-card combo curved at 2, and Vial just makes the combo better.

I started from Vial Wizard, but then realised Spellshaper is not Wizard. (Come on Wizard, is there a chance to errata those Spellshapers.). I had to replace Vedalken Aethermage and Steely Resolve by Worldly Tutor and Sylvan Safekeeper, but Safekeeper put too much strain on the mana base. Finally, I dropped G and add W, using Lim Dul's Vault and Mother of Runes instead. This build works better.

Vial Wizard

12 WUB Fetches
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Aether Vial

4 Mother of Runes
4 Divining Witch
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Laboratory Maniac

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Mental Misstep
4 Lim Dul's Vault
4 Force of Will

It looks like a slower Cephalid Breakfast with more compact combo suite and hence more protections. I tested against RUG decks, but the result is miserable.

Edit: @kiblast: just noticed our builds are quite similar, have you done any tests so far? IMO, anti-removals are very important, as we don't want a Grim Lavamancer to turn the win back to a loss.

[ActionJunkie]

For those playing Leveler, are you serious? It costs 5! Thought Lash is a more respectable idea, but 4cc is still steep. On the other hand, Divining Witch is a 1-card combo curved at 2, and Vial just makes the combo better.


Divining Witch cost 2BB (which includes an activation that can be hated) and there's summoning sickness... not sure what the hate is against a 5cc artifact in Legacy especially one that only needs to resolve. Ancient Tomb/Crystal Vein let you go off turn 4 w/ Leveler if you are ready.

@tsabo: Your list is interesting but it seems slower than necessary. There's a bunch of agro decks that would probably eat that list alive. Casual, it looks like loads of fun with Vial/MoR/combo-pieces.


Hmm...what about this for a potential sideboard:

4 Thought Lash
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Trygon Predator
3 Research

Yeah, Thought Lash, Surgical Extraction seem like good SB options. Also worth noting from the above list, perhaps Vial/Divining Witch are more SB ideas vs. Landstill or other heavy control builds. If you pack enough protection in your main list, might actually be viable to include 3-4 Thought Lash (agro) AND 4 vial/4 Witch (control) in SB.

[Michael Keller]

Painter can easily be overwhelmed with creatures and it has no other way of protecting itself other than red blasts and Servant needs to stick for that to be effective in the first place.

With Thought Lash you can sustain the damage, it's like Solitary Confinement and when you land it you just wait till you find your win con. I'm not saying it's the bomb right now, but it is really a new, cool way of winning at Magic.

And neither does Laboratory Maniac, which is completely open to all kinds of relevant hate. You're also referring to "Imperial Painter," which you don't have to sculpt your shell around with Blasts - although it is light-years better than 'Leveler.deck' which has effectively eight dead slots in Thought Lash and Leveler without Maniac. It (Maniac) acts as the main port between win-conditions of Painter-Grindstone and Thought Lash with itself. It's cheaper, faster, and gives you more flexibility where you might otherwise tighten your list around cards like Leveler - which is awful.

@ActionJunkie: You obviously have no clue what you're talking about; if you're running a terrible card like Leveler - which is completely situational and cannot even be brought into play without Maniac - Torpor Orb at minimum gives you the option of playing a 10/10 for five mana. This is, assuming, anyone wants to play Leveler when there are far better options and faster win conditions available in the format in general. Susceptibility isn't even an issue; you can't even play that card without having the aforementioned in play, and even Thought Lash requires serious consideration at the time of its casting due in large part to its upkeep cost (and comparing it to Solitary Confinement is rather moot; Thought Lash requires you to exile cards - potentially key cards in a deck like this - off the top of your library to be useful where as Solitary Confinement is generally only useful in decks like Enchantress where you can draw cards to benefit over the course of the game without even being targeted). You're overlooking intricacies involved with cards that are generally useless on their own merit instead of identifying just how bad the bad really is.

It isn't "win-more" in Painter; Painter is clearly a more well-established and much faster combo than a deck of this type would be, and adding Maniac simply gives you outs to Emrakul-based strategies or grants you an alternative win-condition when paired with Thought Lash. Like, seriously: Are you really that worse off playing cards you think that are "win more" than those (gasp) 'strategic' cards that are explicitly "win less" in more circumstances than not? Why would you want to strategically warp your strategy by basing your entire deck around a single creature? That's simply poor deck-building all around the board.

Also, my suggestion of Torpor Orb was limited in its scope based on the already overly limited utility of Leveler, so you can see where attempting to help in finding some justification to run a card like Leveler would evoke ideas abound trying to make it less narrow in its overall utility.

Looking at these lists, they all are completely reliant on Laboratory Maniac to win games. That is the sign of either a 'rough-sketch' Combo archetype still being smoothed out on all cylinders, or a completely narrow strategy that has limited - if any - capability to sustain a game without Maniac in play. I'm simply stating you might want to find an alternative way to win games reliably, because that by itself is not going to cut it without some sort of contingency plan or better assembly of utility cards. The real issue here is whether or not Laboratory Maniac is better as a 'Sixth Man' to help off the bench or the 'All Star' you're trying to break in the starting lineup. I just don't see it being overly useful unless you can get to turn four reliably with some assembly of the combo pieces in play and protection at the ready.

How often that happens really remains to be seen.

[Richard Cheese]

adding Maniac simply gives you outs to Emrakul-based strategies or grants you an alternative win-condition when paired with Thought Lash.

I still think Maniac is sub-optimal even paired with Painter. SB option at best, but why pay 2U to beat decks with Emrakul/Progenitus/Colossus when you could just use Crypt, which is cheaper, eats less removal, weldable, and has utility in other situations as well?

[death]

@Hollywood, I don't play Leveler and I have my own list. I'm playing mono-U Thought Lash.dec and I believe people who are putting the card in their sideboard are doing it wrong. Here's my list from page 2:




4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac

4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Misdirection

4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Crystal Vein
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island


Haven't lost twice in a round against the same deck but I'm 1-1 against Team America and Melira.dec. I've beaten Merfolk, U/W Landstill and Goblins. Haven't faced Qasali Pridemages yet and obviously those games can be problematic.

[Darkenslight]

death:

Would you ever consider replacing Intuition with Impulse?

Actionjunkie: Glad to see you're working on this. The biggest question is, " how much of the current Legacy Removal is at 1CMC on the curve? How much at 2? I ask this because, in a meta where they're playing lots of Smother/Edict effects, then Spell Snare becomes a potential alternative to Misstep.

Hollywood: that opens up an alternative SB option, with Fat beats, such as:

Torpor Orb
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Eater of Days

[ActionJunkie]

@Hollywood - this is a combo deck. Combo decks are about consistency and protection - adding Torpor Orb or Maniac in Painter-Grindstone is only viable in some funky SB jank. Reread the thread as your wall of text was full of things already mentioned - we're only at 3 pages ;). Also suggest playtesting (as some of us already have :P) - many of your thoughts are just plain wrong when tried against tier 1 Legacy decks.

@Darkenslight - a bunch of the removal is at 1cc which is why Mental Misstep might actually make the deck viable. The issue/priority is having Maniac in hand, in play, and protected. It sounds nearly impossible but every combo deck has to do something similar. Maniac is most vunerable when casting Leveler (or Thought Lash)... the goal is to go off turn 4/5 to be competitive which means most often you need "free protection spells" unless you've already dumped them when resolving Maniac. The only free spells I can think of for the deck is Misstep and FoW (or Spellskite activation). Spell Snare is possibly an alternative but finding room could be an issue. Misstep also protects them from Missteping a Worldy Tutor which you will be doing a lot of w/ Snapcaster.

Also from my prelimary testing of the deck I posted, don't fret if you lose a Maniac. If/when that happens, it's extremely easy to get to another thanks to x4 Worldly Tutor + Snapcaster Mage + library maniuplation (brainstorm/gitaxian probe/fetch).

I completely agree Thought Lash has huge potential and might be the best build. But again the issue is keeping protection while being very consistant. Worldly Tutor + Ancient Tomb/Crystal Vein allows the deck to be competitively consistent w/ Leveler. I've yet to see a build w/ Thought Lash that is even close in consistency.

EDIT: Doing more playtesting against recent SC Open 1st/2nd-place decks this weekend or early next week. Will try to get in more and hopefully a good amount of "Mad Labs" tessting and report back.

[death]

death:

Would you ever consider replacing Intuition with Impulse?

I'll replace 1-2 Intuition/Gitaxian Probe with 2 Impulse and see how it goes. Intuition gets worse when 2 copies of a card are already in the GY or removed from the game.

Sensei's Divining Top may even be better since I have 12 shuffle effects with 8 fetchlands/4 Ponder.

[kiblast]

Sensei's Divining Top may even be better since I have 12 shuffle effects with 8 fetchlands/4 Ponder.

...and Top + Thought Lash is golden to further dig into your library. Well,isgood for the first 2 upkeeps, then it's suicide. But during the first 2 cumulative upkeeps, is rather good.

[death]

You may activate top after the upkeep cost is paid, prior to drawing a card.

My last resort would be to splash black for Lim-Dul's Vault, seems pretty good.

EDIT-
@Smea.gol.lum - Shelldock + Emrakul seems bad. For it to work, you need a way to consistently put Emrakul in the top 4 cards of your library. Without Doomsday it's going to be a worse 3-card combo still dependent on resolving Thought Lash. Show and Tell will not work either because it has no interaction with the primary combo besides Emrakul, both cards are dead draws without each other.

[kiblast]

You may activate top after the upkeep cost is paid, prior to drawing a card.



Yeah, that's obvious, what I wanted to say is that at the beginning of your upkeep, you may activate top, put on top lands or a second Thought Lash or any other irrelevant card, rfg them, and then check again so in your upkeep you get to see 4/5 cards instead of 3 with your top.

After the second cumulative upkeep, the added utility of Thought Lash in combination with Top vanishes, because you just get to see 3 cards from which you can choose something to draw (the other 3 must be removed anyway, unless you choose to loose Top and rfg Top instead of a particular card).

Top+ Thought Lash+ Long Term Plans = instant speed Demonic Tutor...

[StoicAngel]

I've been working on this concept as well; but instead of using leveler i decided to run hermit druid. And build a vial around it.

4 hermit druid
4 spellstutter sprite
4 snapcaster mage
3 laboratory maniac
3 stoneforge mystic

4 aether vial
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine

4 brainstorm
4 spell pierce
3 remand
3 swords to plowshares
1 pact of negation

4 misty rainforest
3 windswept heath
4 tropical island
1 savannah
1 tundra
1 riptide laboratory
1 academy ruins
1 tolaria west
2 dryad arbor
3 hinterland harbor

[keys]

Hermit Druid is banned.

[death]

I've created a new thread for exclusive discussion of Thought Lash.dec here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/Deck-U-x-Thought-Lash (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22130-Deck-U-x-Thought-Lash)

[Freggle]

Looks like someone mentioned it earlier, but it looks to me like Ancestral Knowledge may be missing from any version of this deck.

It give you the option to quasi mill, and dig for other combo piece / protection if you pay the Cumulative OR Brainstorm some less optimal cards away.

[death]

@Ancestral Knowledge - It's worse than Long-Term Plans and Lim-Dul's Vault, at best you get to draw 1 chosen card from the top 10. You can't cast this earlier than turn 3 and if you don't pay the upkeep cost or if you crack a fetchland it's just counterintuitive.