[SCD] Laboratory Maniac

[Offler]

I found this card here as potentially broken

Laboratory Maniac
2U
Human Wizard 2/2

If you would draw a card when there is no card in your library you win the game instead

Ok. Straightforward blue card? Something that let blue player win instead of using that massive energy of all cards on hand? something is wrong..

1. You are combo player with infinite draw engine.
You draw a loooot of cards, drop this guy, draw your library, and someone will Shock or Sword your Maniac instead.

Congratulations. You just killed yourself with your own combo.

2. You are milling milling and milling your oponnent
Once he sucessfully play this card all your milling engine is pointless, since you was helping him to win.

Trying to play this card as winning condition... well just I have to wait for complete new set, but in comparation to all blue cards I know its very very risky to use it directly without any good cover.

Its hard to see such good prepared trap in blue, and against blue on same card.

[Rizso]

Still would be funny to see someone play this after geting jace ultimated XD

[Lancer]

I really wonder how Lackey worked before Mental Misstep.

[Zilla]

what is this i don't even

[Lancer]

what is this i don't even

sorry not sure if your refering to my commit or the OP's...


If your refering to me, I find it annoying how players shoot down cards based upon how easy to remove yet for some oddball reason Goblins (which the weight of the deck was on 1 creature) was top teir until the flood of Mental Misstep.

[Offler]

Well, its not connected only to goblins and mental misstep..

I have Wizard Tribal - Carddrawing combo deck. (EDh)

Having a wizard which will assure another possibility of winning is really nice idea, but...

Using using Laboratory Maniac as possible win condition in my deck has only two possible scenarios:
a) I will be able to hold my control over situation and i will win.
b) My control fails at some point and i will lose.

its certain how not to play this card, and its something I can expect in local T2 meta (and wannabe legacy). Even in Higlander I expect players casting Stroke of genius for infinite mana with him on battlefield, however its better to use... lets say Azure mage, and why to do so its pretty certain.

But at all... he is not a winning condition. Its the combo which allowed me to draw infinite cards, and it will work with, or without him.

[Humphrey]

The only good use of him I see with Doomsday. Everything else goes to the cuasual company.

He might be useful with Demonic Consultation in Vintage, too.

[sroncor1]

Well it does allow Grindstone decks to get around Eldrazi effects.

Seth

[Final Fortune]

The only way this is viable is with Divining Witch, and there's pretty much no way you're beating Zoo relying on a 1/1 and 2/2.

[Lancer]

Well, its not connected only to goblins and mental misstep..

[your quote] ...and someone will Shock or Sword your Maniac instead. [end your quote]

Before MM, Lackey has the same targets and it didnt stop goblins.


I have Wizard Tribal - Carddrawing combo deck. (EDh)

Having a wizard which will assure another possibility of winning is really nice idea, but...

Using using Laboratory Maniac as possible win condition in my deck has only two possible scenarios:
a) I will be able to hold my control over situation and i will win.
b) My control fails at some point and i will lose.

its certain how not to play this card, and its something I can expect in local T2 meta (and wannabe legacy). Even in Higlander I expect players casting Stroke of genius for infinite mana with him on battlefield, however its better to use... lets say Azure mage, and why to do so its pretty certain.

But at all... he is not a winning condition. Its the combo which allowed me to draw infinite cards, and it will work with, or without him.

The only use Laboratory Maniac is to get around Eldrazi effects. He will be a sideboard card for such decks or will be played main deck. I would use him in Quinn.

[swoop]

Aluren + Wirewood Savage + Cavern Harpy + this = win

[Mr. Safety]

Faster win than that:

Puresight Merrow + Paradise Mantle + Laboratory Maniac = win.

All you need is to have a Force of Will in hand to protect the Maniac and some way to draw a card, maybe a Brainstorm. The problem is the combo is dependant on 2 creatures...historically, combos that rely too heavily on creatures don't really fly in legacy, at least not since Survival was banned.

Modern is a different story...combo could be busted.

[phonics]

You still need to draw a card once you've milled your deck.

[CorpT]

sorry not sure if your refering to my commit or the OP's...


If your refering to me, I find it annoying how players shoot down cards based upon how easy to remove yet for some oddball reason Goblins (which the weight of the deck was on 1 creature) was top teir until the flood of Mental Misstep.

Swords my Goblin Lackey: I don't lose the game.
Swords my Laboratory Maniac: I lose the game.
Swords my Goblin Ringleader: I already drew 3 cards.
Swords my Laboratory Maniac: I lose the game.
Swords my Aether Vial: .... You can't.
Swords my Laboratory Maniac: I lose the game.

See how that works?

[Maagler]

You could deck yourself with the cephalid breakfast combo, but winning with kiki-jiki is just faster.

[Julian23]

It's easy, Lancer. People shoot down cards because of their fragility when their expected value is just too low. Who cares if it wins the game if the downside is outright losing. Same reason why nobody plays Tricks anymore because you not only "not win" but outright lose to e.g. Krosan Grip.

And for a short lesson in Magic history: Goblin Lackey has never carried the weight of Goblins.

[Humphrey]

And for a short lesson in Magic history: Goblin Lackey has never carried the weight of Goblins alone

[Lull]

Sorry, I needed a second to think.
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Mesmeric Orb
1 Laboratory Maniac

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Confidant

4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Island
3 Underground Sea

Would that work?

[CorpT]

Sorry, I needed a second to think.
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Mesmeric Orb
1 Laboratory Maniac

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Confidant

4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Island
3 Underground Sea

Would that work?

So you want to take a mediocre Tier 2 deck, make it vulnerable to creature removal and require more cards or turns to win?

[Dark Ritual]

I second the doomsday idea. Seems really good in doomsday, at least it's better than shared fate. The doomsday pile would probably include this guy, force/misstep to protect him, and some other stuff. Testing will show whether it's not worth it or not I guess. Although my gut tells me that this may just be a cute interaction and never actually competitive.

[Malchar]

I second the doomsday idea. Seems really good in doomsday, at least it's better than shared fate. The doomsday pile would probably include this guy, force/misstep to protect him, and some other stuff. Testing will show whether it's not worth it or not I guess. Although my gut tells me that this may just be a cute interaction and never actually competitive.

Can't you already win with Doomsday using stuff that's already been released? I don't see how Laboratory Maniac improves your chances of winning at all. The fundamental problem is that it's a creature, which makes it hyper-vulnerable, especially since you lose if he dies.

My first impression was that you could use him in imperial painter since he's tutorable and kind of the right color. It would significantly improve the matchups where your opponent has blightsteel colossus/progenitus, or the enchantress matchup, where they side in 11 things that make it impossible to target them, and 4 wheel of sun and moon.

[Offler]

Comparing Lab maniac to the Shared Fate is the best way, however killing a single creature is from my point of view bit easier as destroying an enchantment.\

Honestly I am very interested in testing this card, just because its blue wizard. From the same reason Azure Mage replaced a card in my deck.

Just say I have combo started (infinite mana, infinite cards). The deck have several ways how to finish the game. Letting oponnent draw more than cards in his library, ping him to death, attack with large 400/400 unblockable monster, but all these methods carry some danger, or I cannot win the game over all my oponnents in multiplay at same time.

Safest way how to use him I can imagine is like:
1. Start the combo
2. Draw all cards from your library to hand.
3. Cast Teferi.
4. Cast Azure Mage/Diviners wand/treasure trove or similar
5. Cast Laboratory Maniac
6. Draw a card by azure mage/Diviners wand/Treasure trove , repeat if any of oponnets try to destroy anything.

Stacking rules will then help you because once the drawing a card resolves before any part of combo is lost you will win the game before anything else happens.

There must be always a way to respond. would be hard if someone uses split second destruction or counter of ability.

When comparing to Shared Fate, Psychic venom or Grimoire Thief which I used to destroy my enemies, Laboratory maniac has some advantages over those three cards:
a) it does not require any additional mechanism, besides infinite draw.
b) It does not require oponnent to draw a card at the beginning of his turn
c) It does not require oponnent to have a land (i have witnessed land selfdestructing decks)

All those four cards can kill no matter of Ivory Mask, Imperial Mask, goddammned Leyline, and all those have really good, but only Lab maniac can do it in same turn, winning the game against any number of oponnents, without any other mechanic (or other colored mana) needed.

[Zilla]

I find it annoying how players shoot down cards based upon how easy to remove yet for some oddball reason Goblins (which the weight of the deck was on 1 creature) was top teir until the flood of Mental Misstep.
Right, but if your Lackey gets Bolted you don't lose the game. If you mill your entire deck and they Bolt your Maniac, you do.

[Gheizen64]

I can't believe there's really a thread about this card lol. It even has 2 pages! :D

[Offler]

Rayne, Academy Chancellor

Ok, I think alongside with Leveler its all I can tell about this card...

to Gheizen64:
Why its so unbelievable? :)

[Gheizen64]

Because i think this isn't even in the top 10 cards from the set and the set isn't that spectacular overall, but i guess this is combolicious, like Temple Bell was with MoM.

[Offler]

Thats it. many new cards cooperate with good old combos even without any direct influence on Type 2 for example. Thats important for me, because my deck can evolve over time, and I am not forced to dig only old cards.

Havent seen the most of the set, but its nice when it comes to flavour.

This card is specific. Needs really strategic thinking, but as most combo cards it can bring glory, or doom.

[Octopusman]

I don't see Lich's Mirror in any of the lists.

I think even considering such a card indicates that Laboratory Maniac isn't the most resilient combo win condition.

[Finn]

Thought Lash

[Gheizen64]

I don't see Lich's Mirror in any of the lists.

I think even considering such a card indicates that Laboratory Maniac isn't the most resilient combo win condition.

Don't diss Lich's Mirror! It's, like, the best card ever with Channel.

[Offler]

Hmm. I would rather use Platinum Angel instead of Mirror.

[Octopusman]

Hah, this is getting fun.

I think thought lash is already in lists and has seen a speculative price increase.

I mentioned mirror because I was looking at feldon's cane effects to stuff the library back together if the win failed. Honestly, even if Mirror's trigger resolves, you're still going to lose.
I don't think there's enough room for a plan B. I picture this deck being all-in like belcher but with better draw and counter magic. Also, you still lose if they bounce the angel.

I think having an empty library and going for the win immediately when maniac is in play via probe, wraith, brainstorm or otherwise is the way to go. Pact of negation seems good here too if your attitude is "win or die". Stuffing the deck full of lightning greaves effects seems bad but Kira might be okay. Vial + Snapcaster Mage in this deck? Impulse has been a really good dig spell for blue combo as well. Unfortunately, i am liking like deck more and more despite I feel it's pretty casual until someone unleashes a secret tech and performs well.

To all those mentioning painter losing to Eldrazi effects, eldrazi effects are easier to get around than progenitus' effect which is different and superior since you can't exile the graveyard in response to the shuffle effect.

[NihilObstat]

I must say that at least in Europe people must be taking Maniac seriously, because Leveler, Paradigm Shift and Thought Lash, have been in the top10 most sold cards since Maniac was spoiled. Also Riptide Laboratory, although maybe that's just due to some of the new Wizards (Snapcaster Mage).



Just for the kicks, I'll make a possible list

Combo + Tutors
3x Laboratory Maniac
3x Thought lash
4x Intuition
2x Merchant Scroll

Protection
4x Force of Will
3x Mental Misstep
3x Pact of negation /// Flusterstorm

Thinning
4x Impulse
3x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Gitaxian probe /// Turn aside

Lands
1x Riptide laboratory
2x Misty rainforest
2x Flooded strand
2x Polluted delta
2x Scalding tarn
14x Island


SIDE:
4x Paradigm shift Against extirpate, we would need to take out Intuition
4x Visions of beyond This makes Paradigm shift considerably faster
1x Laboratory maniac
3x Turn aside
3x Flusterstorm

[death]

I must say that at least in Europe people must be taking Maniac seriously, because Leveler, Paradigm Shift and Thought Lash, have been in the top10 most sold cards since Maniac was spoiled. Also Riptide Laboratory, although maybe that's just due to some of the new Wizards (Snapcaster Mage).

Yeah.. if you could get Thought Lash for 1-2 bucks a pop get them now.

btw, here's the new thread I've created for the discussion of Thought Lash/Lab Maniac:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/Deck-U-x-Thought-Lash (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22130-Deck-U-x-Thought-Lash)

/shameless plug

[Offler]

Sorry for bringing back to discussion:

Have re-tested my deck and compared it to Blue sun's zenith.

When thinking of him as infinite mana finisher the usage of zenith looks like this:

a) Infinite mana
b) Draw all cards from library
c) Cast Zenith on oponnent to draw too much cards.
d) Zenith reshuffles.
e) Draw zenith with Azure mage for example
f) Repeat C, D and E until all opponents are dead.

Both Zenith and Maniac need other form of card drawing, but Zenith alone can be used to burn infinite mana. Maniac alone cannot be used this way.

[dougmtg]

Funny thing about all of the harping on this guy, there is a 75spell deck because of gatecrash, that offers lots, and lots of protected turn 1 wins.

[nedleeds]

Thanks Doug.

[Asthereal]

Lab Maniac is fine in Doomsday. Yes, you can win with the cards that were already released way before Lab Maniac. But sometimes you don't get enough Storm. Sometimes you cannot cast Tendrils because of Meddling Mage-like effects. Sometimes you cannot target the opponent. Sometimes the opponent gains like 10 life and because of that you are unable to reach a high enough Storm count.

Most Doomsday decks run a second killcon in the sideboard. Most use the Shelldock Isle/Emrakul combo, because it sort of dodges Counterbalance. Some use Helm of Awakening with double Top to make infinite Storm and win with a Wished for Grapeshot. Some use the Lab Man. Good news is: as a Doomsday player post board you don't see much creature removal anymore. :tongue:

[entity]

Yes, he's fine in Doomsday. However, is being "fine" enough to lose a slot in the sideboard? For me it isn't anymore - I've used him in the past, now I can't justify having him in SB over something much more useful.

[Gheizen64]

Funny thing about all of the harping on this guy, there is a 75spell deck because of gatecrash, that offers lots, and lots of protected turn 1 wins.

What Gatecrash card?

[Tammit67]

What Gatecrash card?

I assume he is talking about the Undercity Informer deck

[Lemnear]

I assume he is talking about the Undercity Informer deck

Still nonsense. That deck just can't offer "lots of protected Turn 1 wins" with Labman. You need 4 mana, informer or his cousin, FoW+pitch and a Free draw a la Gitaxian Probe. That are at least 8 cards. I lack any respect for calculations made in winterwonderland

[Darkenslight]

Still nonsense. That deck just can't offer "lots of protected Turn 1 wins" with Labman. You need 4 mana, informer or his cousin, FoW+pitch and a Free draw a la Gitaxian Probe. That are at least 8 cards. I lack any respect for calculations made in winterwonderland

No, you only need six cards:


Blue card
Chrome Mox
Lion's Eye Diamond
Force of Will
Undercity Informer (OR) Balustrade Spy
Ramp card (either a Ritual or a Spirit Guide)
random

That right there is a Turn 1 kill, and you can change Blue card and Force for Cabal Therapy or Duress. Turn 1 protected kill. If that random is Living Wish or Infernal Tutor, even better.

[imnotbrown]

The guy where you sac a creature to mil until you hit a land. Fortunately, it says target player, and if said player(such as yourself) has 75 spells and no lands, your entire library is milled.

[SirTylerGalt]

No, you only need six cards:


Blue card
Chrome Mox
Lion's Eye Diamond
Force of Will
Undercity Informer (OR) Balustrade Spy
Ramp card (either a Ritual or a Spirit Guide)
random

That right there is a Turn 1 kill, and you can change Blue card and Force for Cabal Therapy or Duress. Turn 1 protected kill. If that random is Living Wish or Infernal Tutor, even better.

I don't understand how you can cast Undercity Informer / Balustrade Spy with this hand. And I don't understand what LED does without a Tutor.

[Ziveeman]

Still nonsense. That deck just can't offer "lots of protected Turn 1 wins" with Labman. You need 4 mana, informer or his cousin, FoW+pitch and a Free draw a la Gitaxian Probe. That are at least 8 cards. I lack any respect for calculations made in winterwonderland

Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Undercity Informer
Simian Spirit Guide
Pact of Negation

The deck put at least one person into the Top 32 of the last SCG.

[Lemnear]

Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Undercity Informer
Simian Spirit Guide
Pact of Negation

The deck put at least one person into the Top 32 of the last SCG.

So you pull off the combo, dread Return the maniac into play via narcomoebas and have to wait a turn and/or die to the pact trigger in your upkeep if the Opponent has any counter or creature removal. I still can't see a clear Turn 1 kill.

[hi-val]

I think the idea is that you eat a few Narcomoebas with Cabal Therapy to clear the way. Bridge from Below replaces the tokens. Since you're using Azami and Lab Maniac and both are Wizzzzards, you can tap one in response to removal spells on one of them. It's got a lot of built-in protection.

[whienot]

So you pull off the combo, dread Return the maniac into play via narcomoebas and have to wait a turn and/or die to the pact trigger in your upkeep if the Opponent has any counter or creature removal. I still can't see a clear Turn 1 kill.

No. You Dread Return Angel of Glory's Rise, which brings back (primarily) Azami and Lab Man. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25386-The-Rogue-Hermit) You win that turn.

Yes, the deck dies to many types of hate. No, the deck does not offer "lots, and lots of protected turn 1 wins."