[Deck] U/x Thought Lash

[death]

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1937/labmaniac.jpg
Lab Maniac defies the traditional rules of Magic: The Gathering and turns certain doom into a way to win.
-Daniel Tack




The deck started as a mono-U build with Intuition as its primary tutor:

4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac

4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Misdirection

4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Crystal Vein
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island

I've replaced Gitaxian Probes and 1 Intuition with Lim-Dul's Vault and Sensei's Divining Top:

4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Intuition
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Misdirection

4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Crystal Vein
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
5 Island

Pros: the deck plays more consistently with 6 tutors / 10 draw filters
Cons: no Gitaxian Probe - no telling whether it's safe to cast or win now

The deck is certainly fun to play against a wide array of legacy decks. Facing various aggro (Mefolk, Goblins, Ichorid, Zoo)
makes me grin every time I establish a soft 1-card lock:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=184582&type=card

What is less obvious is that the third ability can be used as much as you want prior to damage being dealt.. With Lab Maniac
in play and 46 cards in your library, you don't have to wait until your next upkeep to win. If you have Brainstorm/Ponder in your
hand or SDT in play, use the third ability to prevent the next 1 damage and repeat 45x. Once your library is empty, a Brainstorm
or Ponder suddenly turns into a win condition.. Awesome

This deck is also equipped to face countermagic, creature removal and discard spells with Force of Will, Misdirection and
Mental Misstep.

Life totals (yours or your opponent) are almost irrelevant with this deck. It won't matter if an opponent has infinite life..
you still wiiiiiiiiiin!

[death]

Reserved for card choices/sideboard..

EDIT-
How to play the deck
1. Normally, you'd want to mulligan to a hand with either Lab Maniac or Thought Lash + Lands +/- Cantrips/Tutors.
Against decks that win through creatures/damage, you'd want to drop Thought Lash fast. I advise not to use the damage prevention ability
against slower decks until ~6 life in order not to inadvertently remove key cards from your library.
2. Use cantrips to sculpt your hand. Once you can safely cast and protect Lab Maniac you may do so.
You may remove your library from the game in two ways:
a. At the beginning of your upkeep by choosing not to pay the upkeep cost of Thought Lash or
b. During your main phase, the 3rd ability can be used as many times as you want. Any spell or ability that enables you to draw a card lets you win
instantly (as long as Lab Maniac sticks on the board)

The deck has good matchups, even against discard the counter suite is brutal and just nullifies that strategy. Archetypes that may be troublesome
include decks which are heavy on creature removal.

[death]

Prelease is going to be next week, I guess no one has been testing this deck yet besides myself.

My thoughts on why Leveler and Divining Witch shouldn't be the focus in the deck:
Leveler - 5 mana is expensive in legacy where mana denial is rampant (Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Stifle, Sinkhole).
0-2 is the correct number. However, I wouldn't recommend Worldly Tutor because of Mental Misstep (unless DCI bans the card).
Lim-Dul's Vault is simply better because you can manipulate your draws even when Thought Lash is active, you can set up which cards on top are exiled prior to drawing a card. Since Intuition dumps 2 cards in the graveyard, 2 copies of Leveler may act as 5th-6th Thought Lash copies. But still, Lim-Dul's Vault in its place just makes it unnecessary as this creature can just be a another dead draw. It doesn't imprint on Chrome Mox or pitch to Force of Will and Misdirection.

(additional on LDV - it can find protection spells and lands as well not just combo pieces)

Divining Witch - this will eat removal for lunch. It can be argued that being a lightning rod for removal it can draw spells away from Laboratory Maniac. My argument is that you are giving an opponent a free Time Walk every time you tap 2 lands and this creature gets Swords'd/Path'd/Bolted in response. Casting a tutor is ultimately faster than the Witch's ability because its tutor ability is affected by summoning sickness, not to mention using this ability is card disadvantage by itself. It's a 2-for-1 card.

[Scordata]

I don't get how you are against divinging witch, but are supportive of a deck that runs playsets of chrome mox and force of will. The same things that kill witch also kill maniac.

Sol lands eat wastelands, does that mean you should not run them? Getting wasted is like a timewalk sometimes.

Let's get this deck competative.

[death]

I don't get how you are against divining witch, but are supportive of a deck that runs playsets of chrome mox and force of will.

Playsets of chrome mox and force of will look bad together in paper but chrome mox is an obvious choice right now. They aren't really that bad as people think. Faerie Stompy used the combination a while back (in fact with 3pheres!).

Now, for mox diamond to be in consideration the deck needs to get diluted with lands. I chose the lesser evil.


Sol lands eat wastelands, does that mean you should not run them? Getting wasted is like a time walk sometimes.

No. But exactly the more reason to avoid > 4 casting cost in legacy.

[Moduloc]

I have been working with a list that wants to abuse the maniac and thought lash, but the core of the deck is more wizard based. I use vials, riptide labs and the wizard cycler, Vedalken Æthermage. I have not had a chance to playtest it but wondered if you have thought about that approach. This list could even run a singleton maniac because your wizard cycler could tutor it making the list less clunky.

The list would look something like this

4 bobs
4 cliques
1 maniacs
3 vedalken aethermage
4 snapcaster mage
4 vial
4 force
4 brainstorm
4 swords
2 thought lash
2 jace 2.0
2 spell pierce
2 riptide lab
4 polluted delta
4 mistyrain
2 underground sea
2 tundra
4 waste
4 island

jace can pull double duty for maniac fun, my meta has plenty of enchantress so using jace on my self could be fun...thoughts comments?

[MaximumC]

This deck is going places, imho, but it needs to find just the right build to break out. If you're relying on a 3cc creature and a 4cc enchantment to win, you're slower than many other combo decks. Better make up for it in resliancy.

Have you considered Donate? It's another instant win with Thoughtlash. (Fail to pay cumulative upkeep, Donate the Lash with the exits-the-battlefield trigger on the stack, enemy library hosed.)

I wonder if it makes sense to drop to 1x Maniac and 1x Donate as win conditions, then run 4x of that 3cc Transmuting wall from Ravinca. Between that and 4x Lim Dul's Vault, you should be able to find your win conditions reliably. I agree with 4x Thoughtlash, because that can function as your primary aggro defense. The problem with going down to one of each, of course, is that Thoughtlash can randomly screw you by exiling your other combo pieces. So maybe you eshew that entirely and run either Living or Cunning Wish and leave your win cons in the wishboard together with answers...? I dunno.

The other thing you could do is run with 4x Grim Monolith, 4x Transmute Artifact, and 1x Mirror of Fate, 1x Maniac. Monolith+TA+UU = Mirror of Fate, and then next upkeep you can mirror away your library, put the Maniac on top, and then win next upkeep.

[Roman]

Donate is no instant win condition, since its a sorcery itself ;)

[death]

Just to make things clear regarding the Oracle on Thought Lash and use of any of the 6 Wishes (Burning, Cunning, Death, Glittering, Golden, Living)

Thought Lash

Cumulative upkeep-Exile the top card of your library. (At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter
on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.)

When Thought Lash's cumulative upkeep isn't paid, exile all cards from your library.

Exile the top card of your library: Prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to you this turn.


With the M10 rules change, the phrase "remove from the game" has been changed to "exile." More importantly, cards that are "exiled" now fall into the "exiled zone." The unfortunate thing is that the exiled zone is not considered outside of the game. This in effect neuters the ability of the 6 Wishes in accessing removed from the game cards.

[death]

Apparently Wizards issued a functional Oracle change today, Sept. 22, 2011.

Link: September 2011 Update Bulletin: Functional Oracle Changes (http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/161d&page=2)

New Thought Lash wording

Cumulative upkeep—Exile the top card of your library. (At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter
on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.)

When a player doesn't pay Thought Lash's cumulative upkeep, that player exiles all cards from his or her library.

Exile the top card of your library: Prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to you this turn.

This just means instantly donating the enchantment using an ability (or spell) after choosing not to pay the upkeep cost won't work, so no Trix for you guys.

[NihilObstat]

So far, after testing this crazy idea a bit there are some things that have caught my eye about the deck.

Pros:
It's a really easy to establish 2-card combo.
Well protected by the most controlish color.
One of the combo's cards buys us extra turn.
Both cards can be extra protected by Turn aside.

Cons:
Playing Intuition kills us against Extirpate, or Surgical Extraction. That's why I'm running Paradigm Shift in my sideboard.

Card choices:
Since this deck goes against some of the basic rules of Magic and LOVES to play with first, I added Pact of Negations to my list.
I also didn't like your guy's idea of playing 4x FOW, 3x Misdirection and 4xChrome mox in the same deck. It's like playing a deck that is born with a natural negative card advantage.
I only play 3 of each combo card, because it's either I tutor them up with intuition or I have them in hand. I now this might be problematic in a tiny % of games, but I think having 2 extra slots in the deck is worth it.


My list:
Combo
3x Laboratory Maniac
3x Thought Lash
4x Intuition

Thining
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Impulse
4x Gitaxian Probe

Protection
4x Force of Will
2x Misdirection
3x Pact of Negation
2x Turn aside

8x Fetchlands
8x Island
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Chrome mox


Sideboard:
1x Laboratory Maniac
4x Paradigm Shift
4x Stifle or Trickbind for Qasali pridemage and/or Grim Lavamancer.
2x Turn aside
4x Flusterstorm

The Deck is actually doing surprisingly well so far, and it's a lot more resilient than I expected.
Feel free to comment, ask, criticize whatever you want to say. I'll be happy to debate any ideas.

[Smea.gol.lum]

I've already posted this in the other Though Lash thread an deleted it but i will post it again:
1-trick-pony decks are never good, you need a second win-condition.
I've added the Shelldock-Emrakul combo to the deck as the 2 combos overlap:
You can play Paradigm Shift or Thoughtlash into Shelldock Emrakul or into Laboratory Maniac.
I would also play SDT, because it provides an instant kill once you've dropped Lab Man.
My list looks like this, but it still needs a lot of work:
4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Paradigm Shift
3 Shelldock Isle
3 Emrakul
3 SDT
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
3 Ancestral Knowledge
3 Intuition
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
5 Islands

Ancestral Knowledge helps to assemble the Shelldock Isle Emrakul combo more reliably.
Feel free to discuss.

[Smea.gol.lum]

I've already posted this in the other Though Lash thread an deleted it but i will post it again:
1-trick-pony decks are never good, you need a second win-condition.
I've added the Shelldock-Emrakul combo to the deck as the 2 combos overlap:
You can play Paradigm Shift or Thoughtlash into Shelldock Emrakul or into Laboratory Maniac.
I would also play SDT, because it provides an instant kill once you've dropped Lab Man.
My list looks like this, but it still needs a lot of work:
4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Paradigm Shift
3 Shelldock Isle
3 Emrakul
3 SDT
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
3 Ancestral Knowledge
3 Intuition
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
5 Islands

Ancestral Knowledge helps to assemble the Shelldock Isle Emrakul combo more reliably.
Feel free to discuss.

[Grollub]

Shelldock seems extremely intriguing - it can also spit out a Maniac if your opponent has Karakas or some other mean to stop Emrakul from attacking. :-D

However I think Show and Tell would be a better option than Paradigm Shift, it grants both the usual Show->Emrakul random wins and makes the primary win (Lash-combo) more resilient (need to counter two spells) and in a pinch easier/faster to cast.

[ActionJunkie]

Turn Aside, awesome! Knew there was a similar card but could not think of the name. Still think you guys are missing out on a ton of fun/power w/ Snapcaster Mage ;).

@ death - yeah, I'm coming around to Thought Lash over Leveler. But still think there's hope for Leveler if at best a 1-of that can be tutored.

This deck is way more consistant and can be packed w/ sooo much protection that I think many are under-estimating it in Legacy. I'm not ready to share my list but been playtesting and having awesome results - leaning heavily in playing it @ SC Open, Indy this Sunday. If I do, will of course share results here.

[dahcmai]

I was playing around with the idea, but I used green so I could have Noble Hierarchs for a little boost of speed and a Edict target if need be. It becomes a target to send Swords and Bolts to via Misdirection if you need it.

Also it gave me access to Worldly Tutor to dig up the Maniac. It does give you the option of going for leveler if you haven't found a Lash yet. Gamekeeper is also in green and half useful to find your guy, though I admit it's just tempting to do other crazy stuff when you play him.

Good thing Hermit Druid isn't in the format. That's all we'd need is another way to win quick with him.

[Moduloc]

@dahcmai I vacation in Traverse City quite a bit, do you guys have a card shop and or a tournaments? If so then where? Love the Jolly Pumpkin, shorts and all the microbrewries you guys have up there.

[Smea.gol.lum]

If you play Worldly Tutor , you can also run Sacred Guide as a 1-of to provide aother way to victory with Lab Man ;)

[Moduloc]

Scared Guide is way better than the witch, although Im not sure if im still sold on another dude if your going the combo only route.

[ActionJunkie]

Played the below list @ SC Open Indy -->

x3 Laboratory Maniac
x4 Thought Lash
x1 Leveler

x4 Living Wish
x4 Snapcaster Mage

x4 Spellskite
x1 Turn Aside

x4 Gitaxian Probe
x4 Brainstorm
x1 Worldly Tutor
x1 Divining Top
x1 Ponder

x4 Force of Will

x4 Ancient Tomb
x4 Misty Rainforest
x4 Flooded Strand
x2 Windswept Heath
x4 Tropical Island
x2 Tundra
x1 Savannah
x2 Island
x1 Forest

Living Wish Sideboard ;)
x1 Sacred Guide
x1 Laboratory Maniac
x1 Leveler
x1 Phyrexian Revoker
x1 Kira, Glass Spinner
x1 Reveliark
x1 Peacekeeper (so good against agro especially w/ Spellskite protecting)
x1 Meddling Mage
x1 Eternal Witness
x1 Riptide Laboratory
x1 Qasali Pridemage
x1 Phyrexian Metamorph
x3 Relic of Progentius

Match 1 against Stifle-Naught-
Lost Dice roll
Lost Game 1 to a turn 2 Dreadnought
Won Game 2 by going off turn 3 thanks to Ancient Tomb and Gitaxian Probe (also was holding a FoW).
Lost Game 3 to TWO turn 3 Dreadnoughts (he turn 2 Torpor Orb)... also could not hit land #4 while holding two Thought Lash...

Match 2 against U/G Infect
Lost Dice roll
Won Game 1 after opponent mulligans down to 5
Won Game 2... nothing fancy, turn 4 win w/ plenty of support

Match 3 against U/R/B Control
Won Dice roll
Lost Game 1 after trying to go off w/ Leveler - opponent had a TON of removal... He responded to my Top, Probe AND killed my Spellskite before also killing my Maniac. He was playing Innocent Blood, Bolt, Snapcaster, Clique... looked like Jace 2.0 and Clique were his kill cards, lol
Lost Game 2 after he Stifled me at least four times (Snapcaster + Stifle)... the game was actully close as I Living Wished for a Revoker against his Jace but he had already Jace-Brainstorm twice so was set up w/ Snapcaster and Removal

Dropped after that second loss. This deck wasn't the best choice for the meta full of combo and control. I still stand by it being competitive and possibly a tier 1 choice against a heavy agro meta. Living Wish + Snapcaster is really good against a variety of decks and Thought Lash owns every agro deck out there. Also turn one Ancient Tomb, Spellskite is really good!

And Stifle seemed very popular post-Misstep-banning (2 of my 3 opponents main-decked). Snapcaster + Stifle is not fun to play against when running 10 fetches.

Thanks to a few here who helped brainstorning this deck. It was a blast to play even though the meta and some bad-luck killed it's chances... in round 3 players on both sides of me stopped their games to watch me attempt to "go-off" and seemed intrigued by the deck. There's potential here especially w/ Snapcaster + Living Wish so I highly recommmend others giving it a whirl especially if expecting an agro heavy meta.

[hdhrant]

ActionJunkie: Thanks for posting your list and report from the Indy Legacy Open. While it's unfortunate the deck didn't do better, I agree that there's a lot of possibility here. The Living Wish plan does indeed look pretty awesome.

You said that the deck is good against aggro but not so good against combo and control. Do you think the deck can be adapted to have better match ups against combo and control (without sacrificing too much % against aggro), or will we have to put the Thought Lashes back on the shelf until the metagame shifts back to aggro (e.g., LED is banned)?

[ActionJunkie]

ActionJunkie: Thanks for posting your list and report from the Indy Legacy Open. While it's unfortunate the deck didn't do better, I agree that there's a lot of possibility here. The Living Wish plan does indeed look pretty awesome.

You said that the deck is good against aggro but not so good against combo and control. Do you think the deck can be adapted to have better match ups against combo and control (without sacrificing too much % against aggro), or will we have to put the Thought Lashes back on the shelf until the metagame shifts back to aggro (e.g., LED is banned)?

Possibly be adapted but at what cost. My list seemed very close if not the ideal build for what it does. Perhaps going down a few fetch lands would help. Also I regret not throwing a Maze of Ith in the side-board as it might have saved me in the game against the turn 2 Dreadnought when I tutored a Peacekeeper but couldn't cast it until next turn.

The issue against control is Maniac is just so vulnerable. Spellskite especially turn 1 w/ Tomb is awesome but there's only so much counter-magic and protection you can include while keeping tutors or utility like Living Wish. Team America and other decks that like to 1-for-1 you to death are probably always going to be a tough matchup. Can be beaten but takes a ton of work and probably a little luck.

Combo is an okay matchup. For the most part we are on par with "average" turn 4/5 wins w/ random turn 3 wins while having FoW backup. However with significant combo in the meta, playing seems to be the choice whereas in my playtesting drawing was usually better.

So yeah, in the current meta this deck is still a blast to play but probably not tier 1. If/when the meta shifts to heavy agro, I'm definitely going to give this another look.

[optml]

I've read through all the posts on this, and I think that U/B is actually going to be more resilient and reliable.

You get a lot of disruption, and of course our little friend Bob.

A list I have been using (and tweaking) is more like this:


4x Laboratory Maniac
4x Thought Lash
4x Divining Witch
4x Dark Confidant

4x Thoughtseize
4x Brainstorm
4x Impulse
2x Gitaxian Probe
4x Lim Dul's Vault

Protection
3x Force of Will
3x Pact of Negation

8x Fetchlands
4x Watery Grave
4x Underground Sea
4x Ancient Tomb

Sideboard:
4x Stifle
4x Flusterstorm
7x Other meta-useful cards

I find that Confidant does get a lot of removal pointed his way, but it's better to lose him than to lose your library AND maniac.

I'd be interested to see if this could become competitive!
Keep the tourny reports coming.

[4r71k]

Hello everybody I went out on a tournament with my Thought Lash list 3-4 on a tournament with 97 people and I want to know what are you thinking about this list =)

//lands
4x ancient tomb
2x crystal vein
5x island
4x misty rainforest
4x scalding tarn

//creatures
4 laboratory maniac
3 emrakul, the aeons torn

//spells
4x intuition
3x show and tell
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
3x daze
1x misdirection
4x thoughtlash
4x force of will
3x lotus petal
4x spell pierce

//Sideboard
3x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Divert
3x Energy Flux
3x Echoing Truth

[Karhumies]

No matter how I look at this deck, to me the G1 MD seems like an inferior version of the Ooze combo deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19026-Non-Survival-Ooze/page24). The support shell is practically identical, and Laboratory Maniac/SnT is cc3 as is Buried Alive. But Paradigm Shift / Thought Lash is more costly than Reanimate (although you can drop TL from SnT and gain some damage protection), Intuition is more costly than Personal Tutor, Laboratory Maniac can be targeted while draw effect is on the stack making you lose the game - while Necrotic Ooze can respond by reactivating its abilities and ignore the targeting spell.

The good parts in this comparison come in G2/G3: immunity to opposing SB GY hate (unlike Ooze) and the possibility to have 2 different MD combos, which gives more SB space and options compared to the Ooze strategy with transitional SB. In other words, while Ooze is a "one-trick pony" which starts betting on a different horse post-SB, Thought Lash can be included in the MD pre- and post-SB granting the damage protection and therefore extra combo time.

I get the feeling that if you can find and include 1 additional card which somehow addresses the "targeting in response to draw effect" -issue, you will have a viable strategy.

[Namida]

You mean like Chromatic Sphere?

[Karhumies]

You mean like Chromatic Sphere?

I mean something more synergistic. From the top of my head:

1) Shelldock Isle
Brainstorm Emrakul on top, play SI, then on the next turn (or at whatever point in the game) mill yourself down to 20 with Thought Lash to activate.

2) Chaos Warp
Disrupts the opponent in the mid-game, and allows to hit your own Maniac when opponent tries to target it with draw trigger on the stack. However, counterspells are strictly better than this card 90% of the time.

3) Don't combo off without a counter back-up + Brainstorm for additional instant draw

[Namida]

Ah, I see what you mean. Chromatic Sphere isn't exactly synergistic, but I think it's worth looking into. It's not entirely useless because it's a (admittedly bad) cantrip that is basically free, and it completely solves the "Targeting in response to draw effect" issue.

[Karhumies]

Ah, I see what you mean. Chromatic Sphere isn't exactly synergistic, but I think it's worth looking into. It's not entirely useless because it's a (admittedly bad) cantrip that is basically free, and it completely solves the "Targeting in response to draw effect" issue.

I would rather have SB Kira (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74445) or Spiritual Asylum (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21277). SA is unplayable due to its mana cost, but Kira has the added benefit of saving Emrakul from Karakas.

As far as cantrips go, post-SB Relic of Progenitus / Nihil Spellbomb > Chromatic Sphere

[Namida]

I would rather have SB Kira (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74445) or Spiritual Asylum (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21277). SA is unplayable due to its mana cost, but Kira has the added benefit of saving Emrakul from Karakas.

As far as cantrips go, post-SB Relic of Progenitus / Nihil Spellbomb > Chromatic Sphere

I agree that cards like Kira are definitely better. I ask, though: why are those cantrips better than an ability that doesn't go on the stack and can't be responded to?

[Karhumies]

I agree that cards like Kira are definitely better. I ask, though: why are those cantrips better than an ability that doesn't go on the stack and can't be responded to?

Personally, post-SB I value saving the additional card slots by combining grave hate with a 1-shot response over having grave hate and Sphere separately in the list. If you do have room for both functions separately, however, then yes you should go with Sphere since it is a mana ability.

If talking strictly about the G1 MD list, I can visualize someone fitting Chromatic Sphere into the list as back-up.

[NihilObstat]

If you do have room for both functions separately, however, then yes you should go with Sphere since it is a mana ability.

Sweet! I didn't realize that chromatic's draw effect was part of a mana ability, until you pointed that out. Nice tech!

[Karhumies]

Sweet! I didn't realize that chromatic's draw effect was part of a mana ability, until you pointed that out. Nice tech!

If you have Sphere and 1 combo piece on the table -> you manage to resolve the second combo piece (casting/SnT) -> you can keep on consecutively activating Lash's effect by paying the cost without ever passing the priority, followed by activating the Sphere as a mana ability without passing the priority -> you win the game with all Lash prevention effects still on the stack. This does not allow the opponent to use even Split Second mechanics, as she never gets the priority to cast e.g. Wipe Away.

In other words, the opponent has to either prevent the second piece hitting the table, or target Sphere/first piece while the second piece is still on the stack.

[ActionJunkie]

If you have Sphere and 1 combo piece on the table -> you manage to resolve the second combo piece (casting/SnT) -> you can keep on consecutively activating Lash's effect by paying the cost without ever passing the priority, followed by activating the Sphere as a mana ability without passing the priority -> you win the game with all Lash prevention effects still on the stack. This does not allow the opponent to use even Split Second mechanics, as she never gets the priority to cast e.g. Wipe Away.

In other words, the opponent has to either prevent the second piece hitting the table, or target Sphere/first piece while the second piece is still on the stack.

Wow, nice! Might revisit my list on page 1 w/ the Living Wishes... maybe replace the Probes and or some other 1-ofs for the Sphere. Would like to run Enlightened Tutor but that stops Sacred Guide.

[Karhumies]

Here's a rough suggestion:

Combos 15
4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac
3 Show and Tell
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle

Digging 10
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

Protection 12
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
2 Chromatic Sphere

Other Mana 23
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 U fetch

Sideboard 15
4 grave hate
4 counter
2 bounce
5 meta cards

[Namida]

Personally, post-SB I value saving the additional card slots by combining grave hate with a 1-shot response over having grave hate and Sphere separately in the list. If you do have room for both functions separately, however, then yes you should go with Sphere since it is a mana ability.

If talking strictly about the G1 MD list, I can visualize someone fitting Chromatic Sphere into the list as back-up.

Ah, I apologize. I wasn't aware that you were speaking strictly about the sideboard; my assumption was that you were attempting to find cards that shore up the main weakness present in the deck--that you lose if the Maniac is removed when you're trying to win. In this way, I was assuming that you were trying to find a solution to that as a means of opening up sideboard space; that is, you gain more sideboard slots by not having to do something drastic to your maindeck when your opponent knows what you're doing.

[Karhumies]

Ah, I apologize. I wasn't aware that you were speaking strictly about the sideboard; my assumption was that you were attempting to find cards that shore up the main weakness present in the deck--that you lose if the Maniac is removed when you're trying to win. In this way, I was assuming that you were trying to find a solution to that as a means of opening up sideboard space; that is, you gain more sideboard slots by not having to do something drastic to your maindeck when your opponent knows what you're doing.

Well, due to me being very inexperienced with this deck at this point, being very unfamiliar with the current Legacy metagame since I have not been playing in a few months and having no reasonable ideas about the deck's sideboard...let's just say that my goal was to figure out a potential way to protect Lab Maniac without over-devoting slots. The lists posted earlier seemed to be lacking one even on paper, which I perceived as a weakness. How serious this weakness is in practise and whether it should be covered up in MD or SB, I have no experienced opinion on as of yet.


Of course, the magnitude of the protection problem depends on the metagame: how much removal do the opponents run, how fast do they goldfish, etc.

Lots of decks without any MD removal spells (e.g. Reanimator): not a significant problem.
Decks with light MD removal (e.g. 4x StoP, that's it) and low amount of counters: your MD counterspells are likely to be good enough for G1.
Decks with lots of removal and/or lots of counters (e.g. UR Delver, R Burn): Sphere is a must-include, and/or you should run an alternative win con in the main.

...but as I said previously, I am not at all familiar with the current Legacy tournament meta.

[Jofiel]

Hi. I think better than play with Thought Lash (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Thought%20Lash) is to play with Cephalid Illusionist (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Cephalid%20Illusionist) and Shuko (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Shuko). It's quicker than anything. :)

[Jofiel]

My proposition for this deck is:

Combos 15
4 Laboratory Maniac (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Laboratory%20Maniac)
4 Cephalid Ilusionist (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Cephalid%20Illusionist)
4 Shuko (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Shuko)
3 Narcomoeba (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Narcomoeba)
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Jin-Gitaxias,%20Core%20Augur) / Iona, Shield of Emeria (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Iona,%20Shield%20of%20Emeria)
1 Dread Return (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread%20Return)

Digging 10
4 Brainstorm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Brainstorm)
3 Ponder (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ponder)
2 Gitaxian Probe (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Gitaxian%20Probe)

Protection 12
4 Force of Will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will)
3 Daze (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Daze)
3 Spell Snare (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spell%20Snare) / Spell Pierce (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spell%20Pierce)
2 Pact of Negation (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Pact%20of%20Negation)

Other Mana 21
4 Lotus Petal (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lotus%20Petal)
4 Ancient Tomb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ancient%20Tomb)
8 Island (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Island)
6 Fetch

Sideboard (for good beginning):
3 Gilded Drake (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Gilded%20Drake) / Vedalken Shackles (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vedalken%20Shackles)
4 Chain of Vapor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Chain%20of%20Vapor)
2 Echoing Truth (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Echoing%20Truth)
3 Misdirection (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Misdirection)
3 Divert (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Divert)

[Karhumies]

My proposition for this deck is:

First of all, you should have double-checked the maths before posting (Combos 15->17 etc.).

Secondly, you are are suggesting the removal of a card which is useful by itself: Thought Lash provides damage prevention versus any combat, burn or grape shot strategy. As a replacement, you are offering 8 cards which are almost completely useless by themselves: 4 Shuko (not even a blue card!), 4 Cephalid Illusionist. This also turns a 2-card combo into a 3-card combo. And you can not even start using the equip combo without 2 creatures on the table because of equipping rules.

Thirdly, while Enchantments are generally quite safe to play on the table as permanents without fear of opposing MD hate (Qasali Pridemage and Gaddock Teeg work, but not that many others), most decks do pack tons of targeted creature removal. Which is exactly why I was coming up with ways of protecting Lab Maniac earlier in this thread (Chromatic Sphere is a good one). If that is not enough, Engineered Plague on Wizard just destroys your deck's main strategy.

Lastly, the 3 Narcomoeba, 1 Dread Return, 1 Jin strategy is not worth the slots. Narcomoeba and Dread Return have their place in Dredge because of deck synergy. Here they are IMO win-more after you have started comboing off. I feel that SnT-Emrakul is much stronger, because SnT is a complete diversification from the main strategy and can work even if the main strategy fails; but Dread Return completely depends on your main strategy to be ever casted in the game. Also, getting rid of Emrakul is much more difficult than Lightning Bolting 1 of the 3 Narcomoebas (our creature count is really low for supporting Dread Return: we do not produce 15+ zombie tokens), SnT can be successfully played on T1-2 with mana acceleration unlike the Dread Return, the big E also provides protection versus opposing milling strategies, and even if we get Jin on the table, we can still lose to decking from Jin if the opponent kills the Lab Maniac. Jin is a SLOW clock, and provides no protection to the Maniac...therefore no reason to include him in this deck. Ever.

If you want to play with Jin / Iona, I recommend playing Reanimator. If you want to play with Narcomoeba / Dread Return, I recommend playing Dredge. Those decks are so much better at these things respectively that we should not even try to imitate them, IMO.

Therefore, I think that the best part of your deck list is the sideboard.

[Karhumies]

Some build-dependant sideboard card options:
bounce spells for Humility - a must
graveyard hate - a must

Defense Grid - protects, but awkward
Meekstone - slows down some opponents
Null Rod - meta choice
Pithing Needle - e.g. Qasali Pridemage, Karakas
Chalice of the Void - slows down most opponents, although awkward to use. However, can be used to stop Lightning Bolt, StoP, Grim Lavamancer, etc.

Back to Basics - only if you run a basics only manabase
Energy Field - only if you run a basics only manabase

Flusterstorm / Misdirection / Spell Pierce

Phantasmal Image / Gilded Drake

Chill - meta card

Mana Maze - prevents blue spells being countered, slows down some combo decks, although awkward to use

Steal Enchantment - very limited in its uses

[EddyG]

Hi guys, I've enjoyed reading this thread and would like to share the deck list with you I've been having a lot of success with from the beginning of the year. Not great success, no tournament wins yet, but every match up I've played has been favourable.

4 Divining Witch
4 Laboratory Maniac
1 Sacred Guide
2 Trinket Mage

2 Lotus Petal
4 AEther Vial
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thought Lash

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Opt
4 Stifle

4 Ancient Tomb
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Island
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard
Meddling Mage
Nihil Spellbomb
Engineered Explosives
Surgical Extraction
Mindbreak Trap
Grafdigger's Cage

Normal win comes from Vialing in a Witch at the end of their turn, activating in upkeep and Vialing in my Man before the draw with back up instant speed draw/FoW. Thought Lash just wins in general and trust me when I say NO-ONE IS SCARED OF SACRED GUIDE :D I got rid of Lim-Dul's Vault in favour of Top/Thought Lash filtering, giving me room for main deck Stifle as I initially found I was losing to Wasteland a lot!! Lastly, a recent addition is Cavern of Souls as all my guys are Human... w00+!

Thoughts/Feedback would be appreciated as I want to make this solid before Bazaar of Moxen Trials start next year...

[Greenpoe]

Since all your maindeck black spells are human creatures, and your only white maindeck spell is as well, I'd suggest playing around with the manabase to accommodate this. By this, I mean that you can use Tundra & Cavern of Souls (rather than U-Seas & Tundras) to cast your black/white spells and thus could possibly drop some Seas/Tundra and increase the Cavern count. Besides that, why Opt instead of Ponder/Preordain or even Dark Confidant or possible even Vendilion Clique? Clique can trigger the draw you would win to win & it's disruption.

[EddyG]

I'm not convinced hard casting creatures is the best way to win. I started with 2x Cavern when it came out, but the reduction in U sources was very telling. The B sources are to ensure I can empty my library with DW rather than cast them, and again the W is to sac SG.
Although Opt doesn't dig as far as Ponder or Preordain/Serum Visions, it is an instant which is far better. I like to win in my Upkeep without giving my opponent many clues to my intentions before I try to win. The free draw from the draw step is where it's at, saves having an extra answer in hand/Top in play. I'd like to look more at VC, but I don't think more than 2 due to casting cost. I've lost a game to this guy, responding to my AEther Vial by removing LM from my hand. I did draw into a Trinket Mage, but that doesn't help when your library is empty!! Dark Confident would be so good in here if he actually used the word 'draw' for an extra win trigger. But I guess the card advantage can be good. It does feel like he would rarely make more than one trigger though and I don't think this deck can afford too many 1 4 1s. Yes it takes a removal spell away from the key pieces, but it takes a turn to get him out and that's a turn I think I'd rather be setting up the board.

I'd like to add, the first build ran a few Counterbalance too. I don't recall why I took them out in the end but the deck feels better without them.

[Jakobian]

Hello thread!

I decided to roll this list at a weekly legacy tournament and went 2-1 with it. I beat Esper deathblade and UW control, and barely lost to UWR delver.

4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Dig Through Time
2 Spell Pierce
2 Lotus Petal
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Shelldock Isle
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
7 Island


Sideboard:
4 Show and Tell
2 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Echoing Truth
1 Misdirection
3 Back to Basics
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dismember

[snorlaxcom]

Hello thread!

I decided to roll this list at a weekly legacy tournament and went 2-1 with it. I beat Esper deathblade and UW control, and barely lost to UWR delver.

4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Dig Through Time
2 Spell Pierce
2 Lotus Petal
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Shelldock Isle
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
7 Island


Sideboard:
4 Show and Tell
2 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Echoing Truth
1 Misdirection
3 Back to Basics
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dismember

Any actual insight how it played would make the post of worth. Relevant sb, competitive/competent meta, weak card choices, manabase revisions, warranted color splash, etc.?

[Jakobian]

I put the list together after revisiting this thread and thinking about how Dig Through Time enables mono blue combo pretty easily. As I was building I thought Shelldock Isle works really well in this deck for several reasons: alt wincon with emrakul, can hide the win con and enable instant-speed laboratory maniac casting, and putting cards on the bottom of the library is actually really good in this deck. I was thinking having show and tell as a sideboard plan would be good because if someone brings in hate for the main combo they won't be expecting show and tell, and it doesn't require too many sideboard slots to get into the deck.

One thing I have to say outright -- Dig through time is nuts. In this particular deck, putting cards on the bottom of your library in any order is just as good as putting them on the top in any order because you can thought lash down to the bottom 5 if it has everything you need to win, in an almost pseudo-doomsday fashion.

When I was playing against esper deathblade I sideboarded in back to basics, and it ate my opponents counterspells, which let "the good stuff" get through (thought lash/lab maniac).

One thing I know the deck is going to struggle with is BUG decks because they can attack all win con strategies (abrupt decay for lab man, counterspells for everything, and wasteland for shelldock isle) so it would be nice to fit more misdirections in the 75.

I am contemplating cutting back on ponder in order to get either preordain or impulse, because as I mentioned before, putting cards on the bottom of the library in any order is actually relevant in this deck.

Overall I think the deck did much better than I thought it was going to, since it's a sort of goofy combo deck in the first place, but the synergy among the deck is very strong and you can dig to whatever you want pretty easily. For sideboarding options, I would not be afraid to run 1-ofs for anti-hate because you can dig a ton with SDT and thought lash.

Cards I would consider cutting to make room for something else are: 2 lotus petal, 1 dig through time, and 1 ponder. Everything else in the list seems very solid and good for synergy. It might make sense to get a bit more countermagic into the 75 somewhere.

From the sideboard I would consider changing the back to basics into pithing needle for a better general plan, and also to name wasteland to protect shelldock isle if necessary.

[cdnza]

I'm experimenting with Thought Lash lists right now. I've got a few questions:


A friend of mine has a list with Skill Borrower/Kiki-Jiki as a backup win condition. Has anyone else tried this with any success?
What's the best answer in a monoblue shell for Chalice/Needle? Is it just bringing in CoV/Echoing Truth/Rushing River/etc?
How many Emrakuls are really needed for the Shelldock Isle backup plan?


I actually think this deck could be playable right now in a 12-16 cantrip + Dig Through Time shell. My friend's Skill Borrower list also runs Long-Term Plans which seems pretty good with Top (and is less risky than Intuition). Maybe I am being dumb and this is just worse than omni but I'm going to experiment a bit.

edit: just realised a good answer to #2 is to bring Ratchet Bomb or Powder Keg...