Would you like it if Brainstorm was banned?

[Gui]

EDIT: Duh, made a mistake there, it's "I can LIVE with that" Sorry :(

Simple enough question.

I think there is still some time for this one before the list comes. Let's see how the crew feels

[Julian23]

I might be emotional about it, but banning Brainstorm would really hurt the competitiveness of the format as it's the single-handedly most difficult spell to play in the entire of Legacy. Right now, I assume more than 90% of people are playing it plain incorrect and don't nearly get enought value out of it. However, most people just don't realize because it's their generally assumption that Brainstorm is just a good card in itself.

[KobeBryan]

I might be emotional about it, but banning Brainstorm would really hurt the competitiveness of the format as it's the single-handedly most difficult spell to play in the entire of Legacy. Right now, I assume more than 90% of people are playing it plain incorrect and don't nearly get enought value out of it. However, most people just don't realize because it's their generally assumption that Brainstorm is just a good card in itself.

No matter how bad you play brainstorm, it is still devastating. End of Turn brainstorm, using it to hide from discard, using fetchlands in response to shuffle, using it as a response to.

oh man. This card needs to go.

[Draener]

EOT Brainstorm is quite often aweful, and is usually a mistake. The only exception could be T1 digging for a free counterspell when you don't have one and the game is determined enough by tempo that forcing through your two drop will win you the game.

Assuming no fetch that is.

*Edit* I am in the camp that I would hate to see it go, but I love the format enough that I would suck it up. It would be quite soul crushing, though.

[Julian23]

right now, i assume more than 90% of people are playing it plain incorrect


end of turn brainstorm [...]
oh man. This card needs to go.


q.e.d.

[brattin]

Bullshit. Brainstorm sucks when you keep a one land hand with brainstorm, play it turn one and see no lands, and then have to draw two nonlands on your next two turns.

Obviously you shouldn't keep a one land hand hoping for brainstorm to draw you out of it, and if you do that, you should wait until turn two to cast it, or whatever, but my point is that you can play a brainstorm like shit. It is not always good.

Edit: I'm real slow.

I think brainstorm is totally fair, and would be sad to see it go, but would still play Legacy.

[Gheizen64]

Meh, the option for yes look a lot like an option only a fanatic would vote for. Regardless, i think a ban on Brainstorm would revitalize the format and create a lot of new archetype space, especially for decks based in black. If worse come to worse, brainstorm can be unbanned again. It's not like the list is a life sentence. I'd like wotc to be more liberal in their approach to the B/R list.

[Gui]

I'm in the field that I don't care. If no brainstorm, something else will be strong, and if brainstorm go, decks playing it will try to use other cantrips, and go figure, they will work. Blue would get a small nerf, but in the end of the day, I'll have to adapt to whatever comes.

[(nameless one)]

What would people play in a format without Brainstorm?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I'd live with it because I love Legacy, but I'd be very angry and disappointed. I'm also very tired of seeing cards that are powerful but fair being targeted for speculative banning (Lackey, Tarmogoyf, FoW, Top, MM, and now Brainstorm). Most of the time, those discussions don't even succeed in picking out the actual problem cards, or the cards that really make an archetype dominant in a given metagame. The fact that something is powerful is not necessarily coextensive with its being problematic or unfair. I really appreciate Zilla's post on Brainstorm in the B/R thread; I think he has the right of it:


Paired with shuffle effects, Brainstorm is the single most objectively powerful card in the format, bar none. Merfolk is typically mono-blue and therefore does not run shuffle effects. Even when it does, its extraordinarily high redundancy strongly reduces the need for card filtering, hence the reason it typically doesn't run Brainstorm.

Essentially every single other deck in the format that runs blue plays 4 Brainstorm. It really is that good. It allows for decks like Team America to only run 8 win conditions and still remain one of the most aggressive decks in the format. It literally makes every single deck it gets put into more consistent, and consistency wins games.

Blue is played more than every other color in the format and it's not because it's "just popular." Or maybe it is, but it's popular for the same reason that Google is popular. Because it's the "best."

Brainstorm is absolutely the reason that blue is dominant. When constructing a deck in Legacy, you have to have a very good reason not to start your list with 4x Brainstorm, followed by 4x Misstep, 3-4x Daze, 4x FoW. This is more true now than ever, and only continues to be more true as time goes on. Blue is getting stronger in this format over time and other colors are getting weaker.

It's not at all hard to argue that this is stifling (no pun intended) to innovation, particularly if blue continues to trend upwards as it has without fail since the inception of the format. When people say that blue is dominant and that they think it's a problem, this is what they mean.

As an aside, I think the trend is disturbing, but not so much so that action is necessary. As you pointed out, there are plenty of viable non-blue decks in the format. As long as that's true, I don't think action needs to be taken. I also think that banning Brainstorm would be a real mistake, and should only ever be seriously considered if blue is in literally every competitive deck, because the player backlash to a format without Brainstorm would be severe.

It's definitely the best card in the format, and is unquestionably the reason for blue's dominance, but it's also easy to acquire, easy to splash, requires some amount of skill, is fun to play with, and doesn't feel terribly unfair to play against.

[KobeBryan]

q.e.d.

my points exactly. No matter how bad you play brainstorm, it is still useful

[Gui]

I'd live with it because I love Legacy, but I'd be very angry and disappointed. I'm also very tired of seeing cards that are powerful but fair being targeted for speculative banning (Lackey, Tarmogoyf, FoW, Top, MM, and now Brainstorm). Most of the time, those discussions don't even succeed in picking out the actual problem cards, or the cards that really make an archetype dominant in a given metagame. The fact that something is powerful is not necessarily coextensive with its being problematic or unfair. I really appreciate Zilla's post on Brainstorm in the B/R thread; I think he has the right of it:

I'd like to counter this argument, FoW, Brainstorm, MM and Tarmogoyf (not that much anymore, but still) are clear examples of Dominant strategies to me. Maybe not degenerate, but dominant.

[Lancer]

Yea, I believe the banning of Brainstorm will hinder NO/Blade Decks. Also the banning will hinder control players from using Mental Misstep since the spell can become deadweight and not so easly to filter out of your hand.

[Gui]

Meh, the option for yes look a lot like an option only a fanatic would vote for. Regardless, i think a ban on Brainstorm would revitalize the format and create a lot of new archetype space, especially for decks based in black. If worse come to worse, brainstorm can be unbanned again. It's not like the list is a life sentence. I'd like wotc to be more liberal in their approach to the B/R list.

Sorry, I should have added "Yes, but just for the LuLz" or "Yeah, cuz I don't like it's drawning "

[Deviruchi]

I would be sad and I would have to abandon combo ship. But maybe it would be a good moment to play something like Deadguy Ale / Eva Green which I like very much as a deck strategy.

[Julian23]

my points exactly. No matter how bad you play brainstorm, it is still useful

Wait...you were just proofed playing Brainstorm wrong and now talk bullshit about "my points exactly"? I guess that's how discussion on the Internet works.

That aside, a card being "useful" whenever you play just means that the card does anything, which is a quality applicable to almost any card in the format.

[KobeBryan]

Wait...you were just proofen playing Brainstorm wrong and know talk bullshit about "my points exactly"? I guess that's how discussion on the Internet works.

That aside, a card being "useful" whenever you play just means that the card does anything, which is a quality applicable to almost any card in the format.

Do you understand what I mean? I said no matter how bad you play brainstorm, the end results with the card is still overpowered. Granted, there are other ways to maximize the utility of the card, but even at an EOT brainstorm is good for lots of other purposes, like getting an extra land, or drawing into a combo piece, or untapping ur lands after getting excellent card quality.

[Julian23]

Do you understand what I mean? I said no matter how bad you play brainstorm, the end results with the card is still overpowered. Granted, there are other ways to maximize the utility of the card, but even at an EOT brainstorm is good for lots of other purposes, like getting an extra land, or drawing into a combo piece, or untapping ur lands after getting excellent card quality.

Sorry Avatar, but you are just wrong. End of turn Brainstorm is far from broken. We can't discuss potential banning of Brainstorm with people that consider it broken by itself.

You fail realize that you are just saying that casting Brainstorm does "anything". That's no point to argue about because - as I said - almost any card in Legacy will do anything when being cast.

[Mr. Safety]

Bullshit. Brainstorm sucks when you keep a one land hand with brainstorm, play it turn one and see no lands, and then have to draw two nonlands on your next two turns.

Obviously you shouldn't keep a one land hand hoping for brainstorm to draw you out of it, and if you do that, you should wait until turn two to cast it, or whatever, but my point is that you can play a brainstorm like shit. It is not always good.

Edit: I'm real slow.

I think brainstorm is totally fair, and would be sad to see it go, but would still play Legacy.

Thank you for pointing that out. Brainstorm turn 1 to cheat 1-land hands is bad play. At least I think so...

Brainstorm is one of my favorite cards of all time. Having it relegated to Vintage/casual play would be sad indeed.

[Rizso]

I dont think the format would be so enjoyable to play without Brainstorm.

If they really want to reduce the power of brainstorm they better print cards that does punishing drawing mulitple cards a turn. Kinda like Chains of Mephistopheles but instant version of it. Chains never surprices anyone, but an instant version could do it.

[(nameless one)]

Jace, the Mind Sculptor anyone?

If Brainstorm were to be banned, I think the decks that would miss it the most would be combo decks.

[Piceli89]

Do you realize that banning Brainstorm would push essentially *any* combo-centric strategy to surge in Legacy? Banning Brainstorm means amputate not-so-partially Force of Will, too. Clunky storm Combo with pact of Negation and a bunch of permant-hate solutions would quickly surge anywhere, as well as green-based decks optimized to win the game via fast Natural Order (maybe BG or such, with discard as a backup protection).
Ok, the combo-nightmare issue has been brought over and over, but the general fact is that Legacy without Brainstorm would lose most of its depth and became another flat, four-archetypes-rotating-around format like Vintage. Plus, it would be a shame to see Brainstorm ending like Survival in the binders, played in any format at all.


The best solution is to move Misstep to Modern, where it can't arguably create degenerate scenarios or meta-centerizations as it did in these months in Legacy. There are no broken spells to counter there, and MM wouldn't help combo in countering significant hate coming post-board. It just would help against Thoughtseize. Blue decks could be led to something decent, still being in check due to the absence of relevant pieces like Jace, Blossom and AV. And still, it wouldn't help blue against Twelvepost.dec because there are no targets at all.

Unbanning Mystical Tutor isn't a solution, instead. Even keeping MM, a 2009-ish meta would be quickly restored. ANT with Mystical Tutor would crush every non-CB, MM deck. But most of all: Reanimator with Mystical tutor and Mental Misstep?

[damionblackgear]

Format's fine. Why would they ban anything? If there was anything that should happen it's the undoing of the Berserk power level. There's no need for it to not function as a removal spell anymore. It's not that broken and it's not that good in the meta.

[Michael Keller]

Sorry Avatar, but you are just wrong. End of turn Brainstorm is far from broken. We can't discuss potential banning of Brainstorm with people that consider it broken by itself.

You fail realize that you are just saying that casting Brainstorm does "anything". That's no point to argue about because - as I said - almost any card in Legacy will do anything when being cast.

I disagree with this whole train of thought that is becoming increasingly dangerous - especially to newer players. I'm aware there have been a multitude of people explaining how to properly play Brainstorm over the course of its existence - more notably in the last year or so. The fact is, there are times when the card can work better as an 'End of Turn' spell, and it really isn't all it is hyped up to be as a 'Sorcery' digging one card deeper during your turn. Brainstorm is, I agree, one of the most difficult cards to play in Legacy. However, you're also talking about a format with one of the most diverse and complicated card pools in all of competitive Magic; the right time to cast a card is parallel to the situation in the game.

People started exploring beyond the trendy plays of "Draw Step - Clique" and "End of Turn - Brainstorm." The problem with that is that that opposite line of thought has now become trendy. We can all agree that knowing just simply when to play a card at the right time requires a great deal of thought and anticipation, but we shouldn't dismiss the line of play that has become synonymous with those cards as being "noob" in nature just because someone says so. If your timing is off, that's your own fault and you can learn from your mistakes. But that's what makes cards like Brainstorm so multifaceted; they shouldn't be used sparingly, but rather accordingly.

Card quality is certainly a factor in this belief. But the fact remains knowing how to play the card at the right time doesn't always mean "your turn" as being the correct choice, which is becoming increasingly dangerous in perception due to the coercive, distorted nature of some people who are teaching others how to play with specific cards (unintentionally) incorrectly. I've won games off the back of misplayed Brainstorms - main-phase Brainstorms - where an opponent has fallen short on mana or fetched improperly due to an urgent game-state.

I'm simply saying the card requires thought, but the luxury of it being an Instant is just that: the card can be played at the end of an opponent's turn - if desired - and subsequently draws can be filtered and fixed before a fresh untap (and an E.O.T. fetch) to move into a desired position. Brainstorm improves the quality of inferior draws, which I believe is its greatest strength. I don't see it as being overly powerful to the point of an automatic 'win' upon resolution, although because of the card's storied history, I'm sure one could argue countless games have been won of the back of a resolved Brainstorm.

I'm also sure just as many have lost countless games due to incorrectly playing it, which makes one wonder if it is the card that wins games itself or the player using it that loses games due to an incorrect line of play.

And, for the record, I could care less if Brainstorm were to be banned - which it won't. The only card(s) right now in my opinion worth examining a ban would be Mental Misstep and Show and Tell, and right now that's anyone's guess as to what will happen with either of those. Show and Tell is far undercosted for what it intends on doing - even if it does "benefit" the opponent.

[Rizso]

I aggre the format is fine and metagames does changes all the time. Kinda strange people dont like to do more metagaming.

[keys]

q.e.d.

If you have a powerful spell to cast the next turn, but need another land drop (or any other card for that matter) and won't have an extra U to pay for Brainstorm during the same turn, it can be optimal to cast EOT.

Or if on turn 2 you have an instant cast 1 mana play to make, along with a fetch and a Brainstorm to filter your hand, there's usually no reason not to wait to make the play and shuffle EOT.

Yes, you see 1 less card, hence it is usually better to cast main phase, but not always.

Edit: Looks like Hollywood beat me to it with a much more detailed response. Ty

[Gui]

If you have a powerful spell to cast the next turn, but need another land drop (or any other card for that matter) and won't have an extra U to pay for Brainstorm it the same turn, it can be optimal to cast EOT.

Yes, you see 1 less card, hence it is usually better to cast main phase, but not always.

Yup, I agree with this, which is also what Hollywood said.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I don't particularly want to see anything banned at this point. I feel like the format still has a lot of evolution to go through and I don't by any means think UW Mystic and NO Rug are the end all best decks in the format. They are probably tier 1 still but there are plenty of decks that beat them that no one is playing because they just look at results and assume there is no point in playing anything but those two decks. It will be interesting to see what Snapcaster Mage does. Mystic and NO Rug are so tight at this point he'd be hard to fit in either without a significant overhaul but I could see a more Stifle and tempo centered Mystic deck in either UW or Bant being really good. I could certainly see at this point a deck similar to the old UW tempo making use of Snapcaster and shaking things up, making some decks better and others much worse in the process and adjusting the tiers.

If anything Blue has to be banned though I really hope it's not Misstep. I could care less about what it does for blue decks, every non-blue deck needed answers to stupid turn 0 plays for the SB and now that it finally came in perfect form if it exits the format again I'll be bitter. If Brainstorm gets banned I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, it's probably the best card in Legacy and it only seems to be getting better as time goes on. I don't want it banned but I wouldn't say that WotC had their heads up their asses if it did end up getting the axe.

[Kuma]

Since Brainstorm is my favorite Magic card that's legal in Legacy, I'd rather it not be banned. It's a skill-testing card that greatly rewards smart play. I absolutely love cards like Cabal Therapy, Fact or Fiction, and Brainstorm that are highly skill dependent. Legacy needs more cards like that not less. I can see the argument for banning it to increase format diversity, but I'd like Legacy more with it. I wouldn't quit if it were banned, but I wouldn't be happy.

On the other hand, it would make my global collection of Brainstorms much less expensive to complete. Masques foils are insanely expensive.

[Gui]

I think it's clear that a minor portion of the people would like to see brainstorm banned at this point, but otoh, most of the people know how strong it is, would accept the ban, and move on... Interesting.

[Final Fortune]

Do you realize that banning Brainstorm would push essentially *any* combo-centric strategy to surge in Legacy? Banning Brainstorm means amputate not-so-partially Force of Will, too. Clunky storm Combo with pact of Negation and a bunch of permant-hate solutions would quickly surge anywhere, as well as green-based decks optimized to win the game via fast Natural Order (maybe BG or such, with discard as a backup protection).
Ok, the combo-nightmare issue has been brought over and over, but the general fact is that Legacy without Brainstorm would lose most of its depth and became another flat, four-archetypes-rotating-around format like Vintage. Plus, it would be a shame to see Brainstorm ending like Survival in the binders, played in any format at all.


The best solution is to move Misstep to Modern, where it can't arguably create degenerate scenarios or meta-centerizations as it did in these months in Legacy. There are no broken spells to counter there, and MM wouldn't help combo in countering significant hate coming post-board. It just would help against Thoughtseize. Blue decks could be led to something decent, still being in check due to the absence of relevant pieces like Jace, Blossom and AV. And still, it wouldn't help blue against Twelvepost.dec because there are no targets at all.

Unbanning Mystical Tutor isn't a solution, instead. Even keeping MM, a 2009-ish meta would be quickly restored. ANT with Mystical Tutor would crush every non-CB, MM deck. But most of all: Reanimator with Mystical tutor and Mental Misstep?

You've got it backwards, control decks don't need Brainstorm to keep combo in check, combo decks need Brainstorm in order to be a threat. Aggro-control would litereally not care and just replace Brainstorm with Pre-Ordain, TES and co would just fold without it.

[KevinTrudeau]

Excellent post, Hollywood.

Option four.

[DragoFireheart]

I would be very sad to see one of the most fun cards in Magic be banned on the whims of people that simply don't like it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I might be emotional about it, but banning Brainstorm would really hurt the competitiveness of the format as it's the single-handedly most difficult spell to play in the entire of Legacy. Right now, I assume more than 90% of people are playing it plain incorrect and don't nearly get enought value out of it. However, most people just don't realize because it's their generally assumption that Brainstorm is just a good card in itself.


This is so untrue it makes my brain hurt. 90% of the time it requires very little thought to play Brainstorm correctly. Compare this with a card like Force or Thoughtseize where even making the right call frequently feels like getting punched in the dick. Even Top is harder to play and I don't think there's any excuse to take more than forty seconds looking at a given top short of stalling.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also I agree with Hollywood that people are seriously underrating the utility of an eot Brainstorm, especially on turn 1. If you have a turn 2 play and a fetchland in hand you should absolutely go ahead and do that turn 1 Brainstorm 98% of the time.

[honestabe]

Literally, the only reason I occasionally play legacy instead of vintage is because I have access to four Brainstorms. If they ever unrestricted it in Vintage, or banned it in Legacy, I would drop Legacy like a sac of potatoes.

[Tacosnape]

I don't think Brainstorm is nearly powerful enough to be in ban consideration.

That said, I see the logic behind it and support it anyway. And I think you'd be surprised how healthy a Brainstormless format would be.

Brainstorm is the ONE card you can ban that provides a minor blow to a format overrife with blue. It will be a minor dink for blue control, a minor dink for blue aggro control, and a minor dink for combo decks. Sure, it misses Merfolk, but Merfolk isn't that amazing right now.

Banning Brainstorm is the equivalent of saying "Okay, we've gotta take something away from blue, but we're not trying to completely invalidate several decks and not trying to return things to the all-combo state that Legacy was en route to becoming before Mental Misstep completely 180'd it." It also provides a boost to black, because now Thoughtseize and other Discard don't get brainstorm trolled and are actually worth playing. And to keep them from being a little too good, Mental Misstep exists.

[DragoFireheart]

I'd most likely sub in Ponder over Brainstorm should it get the ban. Preordain would then fill the spots of where ponder used to be. But, I don't think that should happen.

[CorpT]

I don't think Brainstorm is nearly powerful enough to be in ban consideration.

That said, I see the logic behind it and support it anyway. And I think you'd be surprised how healthy a Brainstormless format would be.

Brainstorm is the ONE card you can ban that provides a minor blow to a format overrife with blue. It will be a minor dink for blue control, a minor dink for blue aggro control, and a minor dink for combo decks. Sure, it misses Merfolk, but Merfolk isn't that amazing right now.

Banning Brainstorm is the equivalent of saying "Okay, we've gotta take something away from blue, but we're not trying to completely invalidate several decks and not trying to return things to the all-combo state that Legacy was en route to becoming before Mental Misstep completely 180'd it." It also provides a boost to black, because now Thoughtseize and other Discard don't get brainstorm trolled and are actually worth playing. And to keep them from being a little too good, Mental Misstep exists.

This is basically my thinking on it as well. I don't think that any of the big 4 Blue cards are bad enough on their own (Jace, Brainstorm, FoW, MM) but together, they have clearly made Blue the best color in the format. I don't think any color should dominate as much as Blue is. Given those 4, it probably makes the most sense to ban Brainstorm. I don't think there is a chance in hell that they will, but it would probably balance the colors out the most without impacting that much else.

[Tacosnape]

It's also worth factoring Snapcaster Mage into this discussion, since he's about to be in the same breath with the blue overpoweredness. Snapcaster Mage and Brainstorm starts getting a little stupid in the dig department (Though, arguably, not much more stupid than Snapcaster/Mental Misstep).

Jace the Mind Sculptor isn't all that nuts. Anything that's a 4-drop in Legacy has to be just world crushing to be dangerous. Jace is very close, but I don't think he gets there on his own. CMC 4 is kind of where they allow game-winning things to happen. And, honestly? Jace doesn't outclass Natural Order by that much. They're both pretty much game winning if they resolve unless you already have a decent board position or already have the card in hand/in play to handle it.

Force of Will's banning actually would be interesting also. I'd rather see it go than Mental Misstep. There'd still be plenty of reasons to play blue, between Brainstorm, Misstep, Clique, Snapcaster, and Jace. Combo would be kept in check by other counters and by the fact that some combo decks would also lose Force. However, with the printing of Past in Flames, I'm pretty sure this is no longer a feasible option for the format.