The September 20th 2011 Banned / Restricted List Update Reaction Thread

[dontbiteitholmes]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/features/feature161a_icon.jpg

This will likely be the link when it goes live... http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/161a

So the announcement should go live in the next 4 hours. I guess we can safely assume Ponder is now banned in Modern from the graphic. I have the gut feeling that Legacy is gonna get some changes, and it's almost for sure that Modern is going to be turned upside down.

I just really hope that don't do anything stupid to Legacy. That said, from listening to everyone on this forum, as much as they complain about WotC I have to say, with the exception of the reasoning behind Mystical Tutor I pretty much agree with all the banning and unbannings and non-bannings (in the face of public outcry) they have made so far. I agree that Mystical Tutor was patently unfair and deserved to go at the time, but the reasoning they gave was arbitrary and they didn't even touch on the real reasons the card was broken, not the least of which was the tricks it let you run with your sideboard.

I think it's just time everyone admit that for better or worse WotC is a much better keeper of the Legacy banned list than anyone gives them credit for. Of course now that I said that watch them completely drop the ball on this, LOL.

Modern was such a bad format up until midnight tonight. Hopefully they found the antidote for shitty format but more likely they'll miss a few times before they get that all sorted out. I think banning Ponder is the smart play for nerfing Combo. Fair decks still have Preordain which is better than Ponder for them, and slightly combo has to use Preordain which is slightly worse for them and maybe Serum Visions if they want more than 4x filter, that should take a little of the wind out of their sails. I just wonder if anything from 12 post is going to hit the skids. I have to assume something else from combo is going to go, my guess is Rite of Flame. We'll see what happens in a couple hours.

**EDIT**

News
September 20 2011 DCI Banned & Restricted List Announcement
Wizards of the Coast
Tuesday, September 20, 2011

Announcement Date: September 20, 2011
Effective Date: October 1, 2011
Magic Online Effective Date: October 12, 2011

Modern
Blazing Shoal is banned.
Cloudpost is banned.
Green Sun's Zenith is banned.
Ponder is banned.
Preordain is banned.
Rite of Flame is banned.

Extended
Jace, the Mind Sculptor is banned.
Mental Misstep is banned.
Ponder is banned.
Preordain is banned.
Stoneforge Mystic is banned.

Legacy
Mental Misstep is banned.

Vintage
Fact or Fiction is no longer restricted.

Scars of Mirrodin Block Constructed, Standard
No changes

[Fossil4182]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/features/feature161a_icon.jpg

I guess we can safely assume Ponder is now banned in Modern from the graphic.


Its more likely that they un-restrict Ponder in Vintage. Link (http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2177). Ponder does dig, but the issue isn't the digging power of Ponder, its the ultimate redundancy of a lot of these combos. I'm sure theres a thread in the Modern section of the forums where this discussion is going on...

Mental Misstep seems like the intuitive banning. Looking at the Hatfields' most recent article, it identifies the following as the major players in the metagame: Zoo, Merfolk, NO RUG, Stoneblade, and Hive Mind. With the exception of Zoo, all of the aforementioned run four Mental Misstep. Additionally, it has even been seen in some Zoo sideboards. Mental Misstep has shown up in Top 16s more than Brainstorm has (given that Merfolk does not typically play it) and probably more than Force of Will given that some of the NO RUG and Stoneblade decks do not play four copies of Force of Will.

My feelings regarding WotC's B&R management are not as positive as yours. I've argued numerous times on these threads that they ought to institute some sort of transparent and standardized process for managing the B&R list. Its bothersome to me that R&D tends to ban more by feel than by method. To be candid, I've become desensitized to the point that I no longer am surprised by anything R&D does anymore. I am more likely to cringe than be excited to 'navigate a new metagame' because of some random banning or unbanning.

[death]

Is it because Workshops are overpowered much?

[DragoFireheart]

Wizards still cares about Vintage?

[honestabe]

Wizards still cares about Vintage?

lol. no it's probably banned in moder

[Pastorofmuppets]

Vintage is still a format?
Anyway, I can't wait to see the changes for Modern and Legacy. I'm really hoping for a ban on something from 12post just so I can feel like I won by selling my Vesuva at $23.
Also I still want to see Mind Twist unbanned.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Its more likely that they un-restrict Ponder in Vintage. Link (http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2177).

Haha, wow I feel dumb now for not even thinking of that. You might be right, or it could even be both.

It just seems like Modern is the format everyone has their eye on now, I mean if it doesn't flip a 180 with this b&r the format is basically dead. It seems like they would put a Modern changed card on the link which is relevant to everyone who is on the fence or already plays Modern or plans on going to a Modern GP vs. the 500 people who care whether or not Ponder is restricted in Vintage.

[ivanpei]

I really hope brainstorm doesn't get the axe in legacy. I'd get ready for a flood of unbannings in modern as well. I'm hoping sfm and jace come off. Ponder should be unrestricted in vintage. As for banning ponder in modern, I guess it's fair since this knocks down combo consistency across the board. Combo has access to too many cantrips IMO. Aggro and control needs some space to breath.

[DragoFireheart]

I really hope brainstorm doesn't get the axe in legacy. I'd get ready for a flood of unbannings in modern as well. I'm hoping sfm and jace come off. Ponder should be unrestricted in vintage. As for banning ponder in modern, I guess it's fair since this knocks down combo consistency across the board. Combo has access to too many cantrips IMO. Aggro and control needs some space to breath.

- They could reprint Force of Will for modern...

[Goaswerfraiejen]

It's unlikely that a card being banned would have its art featured. That kind of feature is positive, not negative press: it's meant to excite rather than dismay.

[DragoFireheart]

It's unlikely that a card being banned would have its art featured. That kind of feature is positive, not negative press: it's meant to excite rather than dismay.

Looks like someone forgot about Survival of the Fittest getting the axe while also having it's art shown.

[Bignasty197]

It's likely Ponder will be banned in Modern because of its applications in all of the U/R combo decks.

[KobeBryan]

It's unlikely that a card being banned would have its art featured. That kind of feature is positive, not negative press: it's meant to excite rather than dismay.

Survival was featured as the art. It got banned.

[Tacosnape]

You know, I've never once liked a deck that ran Ponder. Not "thought it was bad" not liked, but just like "I don't like your face" not liked. Therefore I'm going to hope, just as a means of Wizards trolling the shit out of us (And they'll do this - See Planeswalker Points), that they ban Ponder in all formats and that's the only change.

EDIT: Including Limited.

[dontbiteitholmes]

You know, I've never once liked a deck that ran Ponder. Not "thought it was bad" not liked, but just like "I don't like your face" not liked. Therefore I'm going to hope, just as a means of Wizards trolling the shit out of us (And they'll do this - See Planeswalker Points), that they ban Ponder in all formats and that's the only change.

EDIT: Including Limited.

Haha. Really what would make my day is if I opened up the B&R announcement in an hour and it says, "Extended is now banned as a format. Wizards will not longer sanction Extended tournaments." I would just be really pissed if a GP rolled up within 100 miles of me next year and it ended up being Extended since I would rather play Homelands sealed than have to put together and test Extended ever again.

If they don't explicitly ban Stoneforge Mystic and Jace the Mindsculptor in Extended this B&R announcement you can put money on never seeing another Extended GP/PT event ever again.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Looks like someone forgot about Survival of the Fittest getting the axe while also having it's art shown.

More like someone didn't know because someone seldom pays attention to the pictures. Thanks for the correction.

[Sturtzilla]

I would rather play Homelands sealed than have to put together and test Extended ever again.

Dude, have you ever actually done Homelands limited? You don't understand the true nature of disappointment, until you try to draft/sealed that set. My play group did it as a joke about a year ago... it degenerated into us all drinking heavily due to how bad it was. One of the members ended up passing out in my bathroom because he drank so much due to the terribleness of it. So in summary, Homelands is terribad and drives decent players to the bottle. I guess Extended might do that too but to a lesser degree.

[Sims]

I really hope brainstorm doesn't get the axe in legacy. I'd get ready for a flood of unbannings in modern as well. I'm hoping sfm and jace come off. Ponder should be unrestricted in vintage. As for banning ponder in modern, I guess it's fair since this knocks down combo consistency across the board. Combo has access to too many cantrips IMO. Aggro and control needs some space to breath.

Wait so.. You want Jace and Stoneforge back so you can just play Stoneblade in Modern, and want them to ban Ponder so the combo competition for said Stoneblade deck won't exist? Just what I was hoping for... another format to get bent over by the dynamic duo.

While I admit the format is too heavily combolicious, I really hope they have a more sensible approach to Modern's banned list instead of turning the format into another iteration of extended, legacy, and standard prior to the last b/r update. If those two stay on the banned list, fine, nerf combo. If they make combo unplayable and turn the format into Stoneblade vs. Stoneblade vs. Rogue aggro vs. Stoneblade vs. 12-post... fuck that format. I'd rather play the combo-licious format.

[OurSerratedDust]

Dude, have you ever actually done Homelands limited? You don't understand the true nature of disappointment, until you try to draft/sealed that set. My play group did it as a joke about a year ago... it degenerated into us all drinking heavily due to how bad it was. One of the members ended up passing out in my bathroom because he drank so much due to the terribleness of it. So in summary, Homelands is terribad and drives decent players to the bottle. I guess Extended might do that too but to a lesser degree.

Haha, nice.

I'm really hoping for a Mental Misstep banning tonight. Brainstorm being banned would be interesting, but I'm not sure how the format would react, probably poorly.

[Getsickanddie]

Holy shit.

[into_play]

Well I'll be damned. Mental Misstep gets banned (first).

[DragoFireheart]

Mental Misstep got banned.

Back to countertop?

[clavio]

Spectacular! I'm not sure that mm needed to be banned but I sure as hell was not a fan.

[OurSerratedDust]

Yessss mental misstep is banned!!! Woooooooooooooooooo!

[Sims]

Wowwww...

Guess they really want Modern to be an aggro format..

[ivanpei]

Wait so.. You want Jace and Stoneforge back so you can just play Stoneblade in Modern, and want them to ban Ponder so the combo competition for said Stoneblade deck won't exist? Just what I was hoping for... another format to get bent over by the dynamic duo.

While I admit the format is too heavily combolicious, I really hope they have a more sensible approach to Modern's banned list instead of turning the format into another iteration of extended, legacy, and standard prior to the last b/r update. If those two stay on the banned list, fine, nerf combo. If they make combo unplayable and turn the format into Stoneblade vs. Stoneblade vs. Rogue aggro vs. Stoneblade vs. 12-post... fuck that format. I'd rather play the combo-licious format.

If you tested modern prior to the bannings (ie after community cup), you'd realize that it wasn't really that degenerate/broken. Zoo, 12post kept stoneblade in check. O doubt it would dominate as badly as you claim. Mana leak/rune snag is not force/daze. It simply isn't as dominating as legay stoneblade.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Damn, they smashed modern. Like every good top deck has to reformat itself. Go wizards. In other news, Im infinitely glad that misstep is gone. Back to combo for me.

[Telperion]

All hell just broke loose. Should I bust out vials again?

[Nihil Credo]

Hack of a job, Wizards.

[KevinTrudeau]

Thank the lord Brainstorm wasn't banned.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38V8jnN1Kpw

[Finn]

Legacy
Mental Misstep is banned.
Holy hell...
I honestly dont believe it. SO happy.

[clavio]

Lol@ 10 dollar blazing shoals.

[Octopusman]

It's hilarious. Seems that to keep the Modern metagame fresh they will just ban the top decks.

Sad to see misstep go in legacy. I'm just glad they didn't do anything stupid like ban Stoneforge Mystic, or other. I'm not looking forward to going to time because of Sensei's top.

Extended (or what's left of it got owned pretty hard too).

[DragoFireheart]

Thank the lord Brainstorm wasn't banned.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38V8jnN1Kpw

- Can't say I'm surprised about MMS getting banned. It was the newest card to be made and it caused the biggest changes recently. I'm a bit sad because now we're back to CounterTop -> Storm -> Zoo -> Merfolk -> CounterTop again.

[Shawon]

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001390907/FacePalm_xlarge.jpeg

[Ben]

I suppose I can play Goblins again :)


Banning all "brainstorm" look alikes in modern is a bit brutal I think...

[ramanujan]

Wizards,

I just wanted to say this. Thank you so much for doing what I feel is the right thing. Who the bleep knows what will be the best banned and restricted list. All I know is that you just made my day. I look forward to the modern shakeup.

[Sims]

If you tested modern prior to the bannings (ie after community cup), you'd realize that it wasn't really that degenerate/broken. Zoo, 12post kept stoneblade in check. O doubt it would dominate as badly as you claim. Mana leak/rune snag is not force/daze. It simply isn't as dominating as legay stoneblade.

It might not be, but the lemmings would have flocked to it just because they could play the same deck in many formats. I hate playing against it in legacy, I hated it in standard, and I don't want to deal with it in modern.

Speaking of modern... well i'm glad I didn't buy any Shocklands for any of the U/r decks... but now I guess I'm going to have to take apart Enduring Ideal, stop sleeving Ascension/Swathstorm, and find replacements for GSZ in Melira..

Yay, another format that will likely be pushed hard to aggro.

[Koby]

This concludes the latest experiment from the Free Spells are Broken Department of WotC, R&D.

Please stand by for your regularly schedule Legacy programming.

[Rizso]

Just hope 3-4 dropps will remain viable in the format. This is gonna speed up the format alot. Hope you are ready.

[joemauer]

WotC in legacy

+1

[Michael Keller]

Welcome back, "fun" Legacy! :)

[Julian23]

*sits back and observes what's to come now*
*quite excited*

I'm still a bit sad about Control being pushed out of Legacy again.

[ivanpei]

Ur long live zoo? Blue decks are rightfully weakened again. Stoneblade goes back to countertop now? Yes! Countertop is back!!! God what am I going to do with my foil missteps...

[GGoober]

This is why Modern sucks so bad, even more with the updates i.e. IT IS FUCKING STANDARD/EXTENDED ALL OVER AGAIN. Also, Preordain/Ponder banned further kills control. This is why Modern is the shittiest 'eternal' format with this banlist. You will only have one viable archetype: aggro and tap out control. Maybe someone will break it again with a turn 3 combo (and there exists turn 3 combos e.g. Eggs). WotC is fucking approaching Modern in the wrong light entirely. THey are way too focused on "We do not want turn 1-3 combo decks" and the banlist is immature, and does not consider the potential of the format or what the whole point of Modern is all about.

Also, I'm laughing real hard at the Blazing Shoal speculators lmao. It will always be worth $1-2 at most even if it's a tier-1 deck (which it's not).

Anyway, I'm personally happy for Legacy's decision. I can FINALLY brew some decks and bring back old decks that were fun and viable.

[Mr.C]

Ur long live zoo? Blue decks are rightfully weakened again. Stoneblade goes back to countertop now? Yes! Countertop is back!!! God what am I going to do with my foil missteps...

Yay, my Candelabras are worth money again!

[jrw1985]

MM banned. Cool.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

Hack of a job, Wizards.
This. For once, whining and demagoguery have trumped reason in the eyes of RnD. Eeeven Mystical is OK in hindsight. If we never had Misstep to start with, it wouldn't be so bad. Now that we've had the taste of a serious eternal format, Misstep's departure is just shitty.

In the realm of formats I don't care about, I've never seen such a hamfisted list of changes as they did with Modern. At least they're making Legacy look better.

[into_play]

This. For once, whining and demagoguery have trumped reason in the eyes of RnD. Eeeven Mystical is OK in hindsight. If we never had Misstep to start with, it wouldn't be so bad. Now that we've had the taste of a serious eternal format, Misstep's departure is just shitty.


In the words of the Simpsons, "If things don't go your way, just keep complaining until your dreams come true."

This banning makes me think that other banned one-drops (Land Tax, Black Vise, etc) will never be coming off, now that the best possible hate is gone.

[Koby]

I don't for the like of me see CB-top being remotely playable in the near future. It still loses to a whole host of mediocre mid-range decks.

[KevinTrudeau]

- Can't say I'm surprised about MMS getting banned. It was the newest card to be made and it caused the biggest changes recently. I'm a bit sad because now we're back to CounterTop -> Storm -> Zoo -> Merfolk -> CounterTop again.

The format leading up to the printing of Mental Misstep was a lot jankier/more diverse than you're giving it credit for.

[clavio]

Stifling Fetchlands looks real good again!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I would rather they had banned Brainstorm, but it seems reasonable enough. What surprises me is that nothing was unbanned. This breaks the policy that had seemed to adopt of keeping the list the same length. It's weird because there were still several completely safe unbanning candidates on that list.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Awww, fuck. There goes MM. And it was only just printed, too. :(

[DragoFireheart]

The format leading up to the printing of Mental Misstep was a lot jankier/more diverse than you're giving it credit for.

- Well, maybe it's no longer the format of good cards. It's now the format of pet decks: the only viable decks are the ones that people will cry enough about. The precedent set now means that if enough people complain about a card regardless of how objectively good or bad it is, WotC will ban it to appease the masses.

[Deck Dont Matter]

copy and paste of it please

[TheKingslayer]

Fuck.

[joemauer]

I would rather they had banned Brainstorm, but it seems reasonable enough. What surprises me is that nothing was unbanned. This breaks the policy that had seemed to adopt of keeping the list the same length. It's weird because there were still several completely safe unbanning candidates on that list.

Yeah still holding breathe for Mind Twist.....one can dream.

[ivanpei]

Welcome back led! Storm combo alive again? So how does this affect snapcaster mage's effectiveness in legacy?

[Koby]

"There are currently 119 users browsing this thread." LOL

Way OT, but is #thesource still a channel on EFNet?

[GGoober]

I would rather they had banned Brainstorm, but it seems reasonable enough. What surprises me is that nothing was unbanned. This breaks the policy that had seemed to adopt of keeping the list the same length. It's weird because there were still several completely safe unbanning candidates on that list.

They only had that many time in testing sessions with Online sessions. I think they figured out that having a free spell to counter a Lightning Bolt on Great Sable Stag was a little too powerful.

On another comment: I used to think WotC creating Modern was to troll and shun off Legacy, but this made me change that opinion (it wasn't a strong one to begin with). Modern really looks laughable right now. I was going to give it a 50% shot to get into the format, but I'm glad I'm not involved with it. It's looking worse than Extended in my opinion. Extended in previous seasons actually had POWERFUL decks. Right now, Modern is just going to look way too streamlined and hard to develop outside of the cycle of powerful cards e.g. Goyfs, Bobs, Cliques, Thoughtseize, Nacatl, Hierarch, Knight.

[joemauer]

- Well, maybe it's no longer the format of good cards. It's now the format of pet decks: the only viable decks are the ones that people will cry enough about. The precedent set now means that if enough people complain about a card regardless of how objectively good or bad it is, WotC will ban it to appease the masses.

You just don't want to admit Mental Misstep was bad for the format.

[Julian23]

The most challenging thing for me is gonna be to eradicate the mindset of not playing straight into Misstep, lol.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Well, that's lame. I guess it could be worse though we're just back to 5 months ago + Batterskull. I guess they were really concerned that Snapcaster would make Misstep turn 1 and again turn 2 too easy. I'm salty now though because we are back to combo sticking it in non-blue decks hard, guess I will have to reconsider playing Enchantress now at Indy. I guess I can only be so mad though. I liked what Misstep did to the format and I feel like a lot of people just weren't taking advantage of how everything lined up behind 4-5 key matchups. My SBs are forever sad now, too many combos too many different answers needed. I feel like I almost have to play blue now since it seems like everyone will just be breaking out the combo decks they had put on the shelf when NP came out.

On the Modern front, this actually makes the format not super terrible. I can't believe they banned GSZ though, WTF? Now the format seems to be turn guys sideways FTW, but I guess it's better than everyone plays combo.format.

LOL @ Blazing Shoal being banned. What a terrible POS card. Who's gonna go all in on Shoal now that creature removal is relevant?

[KevinTrudeau]

copy and paste of it please

News
September 20 2011 DCI Banned & Restricted List Announcement
Wizards of the Coast
Tuesday, September 20, 2011

Announcement Date: September 20, 2011
Effective Date: October 1, 2011
Magic Online Effective Date: October 12, 2011

Modern
Blazing Shoal is banned.
Cloudpost is banned.
Green Sun's Zenith is banned.
Ponder is banned.
Preordain is banned.
Rite of Flame is banned.

Extended
Jace, the Mind Sculptor is banned.
Mental Misstep is banned.
Ponder is banned.
Preordain is banned.
Stoneforge Mystic is banned.

Legacy
Mental Misstep is banned.

Vintage
Fact or Fiction is no longer restricted.

Scars of Mirrodin Block Constructed, Standard
No changes

[DragoFireheart]

Welcome back led! Storm combo alive again? So how does this affect snapcaster mage's effectiveness in legacy?

He'll find a home in CounterTop. He fits the curve perfectly.

[Koby]

They only had that many time in testing sessions with Online sessions. I think they figured out that having a free spell to counter a Lightning Bolt on Great Sable Stag was a little too powerful.


True story - I crushed Tom "GSS" LaPille with Maverick on MTGO a few weeks ago, and he didn't even say GG. Although, my Mental Misstep must have had something to do with him and his cronies banning it. How dare a :g::w: stupid creature deck defeat a dedicated :u::w: control/aggro deck with it's own medicine!!

[KindGrind]

Glad MM is gone.

Now that wouldn't want to make me sleeve Goblins ever again, it being way too fair and all, but I can see myself casting Explorations and Manabonds again, which I'm pretty excited about.

[DragoFireheart]

You just don't want to admit Mental Misstep was bad for the format.

- And why would I? There hasn't been enough time to let other decks come and beat NO RuG / Stone blade. Ah well, as long as the kiddies are happy with their pet decks, right?

[2Rach]

This concludes the latest experiment from the Free Spells are Broken Department of WotC, R&D.

Please stand by for your regularly schedule Legacy programming.
LMAO. Exactly.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I'm ambivalent about Misstep. I didn't get to play enough in the time it was legal to get a feel for things.

The Modern ban-fest is stupid though. Banning everything won't work. More combos will just pop up as soon as they ban old ones (Second Sunrise combo and cascade combos are probably next to take the field), or the format will be nothing but Zoo and tap-out control decks once the Night of the Long Banlist is over.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Thanks for keeping Legacy alive and making it as diverse as it was. =)

Hate for killing Modern and making it a boring creature tap format. =(

[KobeBryan]

perfect timing to build my UW merfolk deck.

[(nameless one)]

- Well, maybe it's no longer the format of good cards. It's now the format of pet decks: the only viable decks are the ones that people will cry enough about. The precedent set now means that if enough people complain about a card regardless of how objectively good or bad it is, WotC will ban it to appease the masses.

I don't think it's that bad. Legacy was still competitive Pre-MM banning. It's not like what's happening to Modern.


Yeah still holding breathe for Mind Twist.....one can dream.

Or Land Tax. I've been waiting since 2008.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I really enjoyed the format with Misstep, and I feel like this is a hard bullet to bite. Not because 'x will be more powerful', but because it's a new card, was just settling (finding natural homes), was an awesome piece of tempo, seemed tailor-made for Legacy, and made it feasible that banned 1cc cards like Mytical Tutor would return. Oh well. At least it wasn't Brainstorm or Tarmogoyf. =/

I was curious about how Snapcaster Mage would pan out. Guess its value and utility have just dropped. Oh well.

[UnderwaterGuy]

I am extremely happy about the MM ban :)

[sligh16]

Legacy is meant for diversity. Deal with it.

[GtF]

I LOVE THESE BANS!

Modern looked pretty stupid coming out of the PT. I think if they had just banned cloudpost, the equilibrium of a normal combo/control/aggro metagame might have appeared, but I'm certainly not complaining that they went overboard. If your stated goal is trying to make turn 3 kills almost impossible, you might as well keep banning till you get it right.

Mental misstep in legacy - Good riddance. Exactly like Lauer said, it made blue decks even more dominant and reduced the diversity of the format. Countertop, storm combo, goblins...I remember these decks and they were pretty cool. It'll be nice to have them back, and maybe some other decks that like casting 1 mana spells too.

The only ban I don't like is Jace in extended. But I'm pretty sure that format is dead in the water anyway.

[menace13]

Sad day. Legacy whiners yet again get another card banned. Silly kids.

[GGoober]

What blows my mind is why did they ban Cloudpost over Emrakul. They know the Urzatron engine exists right and is tutorable easily with Loam and the Realms Uncharted (Can't rmb the green Gifts Ungiven card for lands).

Emrakul will still be cheated in Modern. I know the Urzatron engine is usually a turn slower to assemble, but a dedicated deck could still play out 12-post easily. Not having Glimmerpost life stabilization matters though I guess.

[workingdude]

I'm about as ambivalent to this banning (MM) as I can be. I love my B/W pet deck but was having fun with a blue deck I was doing quite well with as well. The blue deck was using borrowed mental missteps and just last week I traded for my first 2 mental missteps (lol). About as in between on this banning as I can be. I think in the eye of the general public, though, this is an exciting banning.

[CorpT]

What I find interesting is that the precedent has clearly been set that card filter spells in blue are bannable. Banning Ponder and Preordain across two formats sends a pretty clear message that spells that let you sculpt your hand are bannable. I think that means that Brainstorm is in the realm of bannable now. Before this, I would have said that there was no way. But after this, it wouldn't surprise me. I'm sure they'll wait until the Misstep banning shakes out and see if Blue is still dominating as much.

[Rizso]

Is midrange and control decks gonna survive this ban? Or is it back to combo, aggro control, zoo and counterbalance now?

[Amon Amarth]

I'm disappointed that they didn't unban anything. I'm ambivalent that they banned Misstep.

[GtF]

What blows my mind is why did they ban Cloudpost over Emrakul. They know the Urzatron engine exists right and is tutorable easily with Loam and the Realms Uncharted (Can't rmb the green Gifts Ungiven card for lands).

Emrakul will still be cheated in Modern. I know the Urzatron engine is usually a turn slower to assemble, but a dedicated deck could still play out 12-post easily. Not having Glimmerpost life stabilization matters though I guess.

Exactly this last part. The fact that the ramp decks can gain a bunch of life incidentally in the process of generating mana makes the matchup for aggro decks borderline impossible. Because of that they will beat the slow control with emrakul and the aggro decks with lifegain, losing only to faster combo decks, leading the format to be full of, that's right, really fast combo decks. That is not what wizards wants. But they don't want to kill the archetype alltogether. Urzatron is both harder to assemble than a bunch of posts, and doesn't gain you life in the process, so it's probably fair enough.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

So... I guess we're moving on to Spell Pierce again?

[Di]

As a High Tide player, this gave me a massive boner. I've been playing the deck through Mental Missteps for months to great success, and now I can't help but believe it can easily go back to the top deck in the format.

As for Modern, I actually like the changes. It forces players to be more creative in deckbuilding, and gives the format the kind of interactivity that Legacy will be lacking with Misstep out of sight. Plus, it just made Gifts Ungiven a hell of a lot more viable in that format, which gives me an additional boner.

[joemauer]

Is midrange and control decks gonna survive this ban? Or is it back to combo, aggro control, zoo and counterbalance now?

Counterbalance is a control deck silly.

[Bruticus]

Ugh. Goodbye Midrange, hello countertop and storm combo :(

[Finn]

Oh sweet irony.

Whiners on this thread whining that MM was banned due to whiners. How pathetic.

[troopatroop]

As a High Tide player, this gave me a massive boner. I've been playing the deck through Mental Missteps for months to great success, and now I can't help but believe it can easily go back to the top deck in the format.

As for Modern, I actually like the changes. It forces players to be more creative in deckbuilding, and gives the format the kind of interactivity that Legacy will be lacking with Misstep out of sight. Plus, it just made Gifts Ungiven a hell of a lot more viable in that format, which gives me an additional boner.

High Tide also just got Snapcaster Mage. I think it's safe to say Spiral Tide is now much stronger again.


Reanimator and Painter just got buffed as well, anything with a 1cc enabler. I hope! people play goblins.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What blows my mind is why did they ban Cloudpost over Emrakul. They know the Urzatron engine exists right and is tutorable easily with Loam and the Realms Uncharted (Can't rmb the green Gifts Ungiven card for lands).

Emrakul will still be cheated in Modern. I know the Urzatron engine is usually a turn slower to assemble, but a dedicated deck could still play out 12-post easily. Not having Glimmerpost life stabilization matters though I guess.

It will have a harder time surviving aggro, which I think is enough. It will also be more vulnerable to Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge.

[KevinTrudeau]

Reanimator and Painter just got buffed as well, anything with a 1cc enabler. I hope! people play goblins.

Reanimator was stronger with Mental Misstep in the format.

[mcfarland]

Well, that's that.

R&D wanted a card that could help fight combination decks, and could also fight blue decks by countering cards such as Brainstorm (...) Unfortunately, it turned out poorly. Looking at high-level tournaments, instead of results having blue and nonblue decks playing Mental Misstep, there are more blue decks than ever. The DCI is banning Mental Misstep, with the hopes of restoring the more diverse metagame that existed prior to the printing of Mental Misstep.

I've never complained about MM, but I do agree that (for me) the legacy meta post-survival and pre-mental misstep was probably the most exciting and diverse meta that I can remember. I'm happy with their decision.

As far as the Modern bannings go, I think that they're being pretty ballsy, and they made some good choices. I'd like to see the format grow, and it wasn't going anywhere if they were tentative about axing those dominate decks.

[Bryant Cook]

Instant Boner.

[shadowofdoubt9488]

Now we return to our regularly scheduled programming; the exhausting to watch Spiral Tide mirror matches that add almost a half an hour to the end of each round.

[Bardo]

I thought R&D learned their lesson about free spells in sets past, but appreciate their willingness to buck convention from time to time and push the edges of power. While MM might be the only true reactive spell on the Legacy banned list (please correct me if I'm wrong), I can see that banning MM will increase diversity and that's fine with me.

So long, Mental Misstep. I never liked your art -- just thought you should know.

[(nameless one)]

Ugh. Goodbye Midrange, hello countertop and storm combo :(

What I don't get is why people are whining about CounterTop. The archetype was already in decline during post Survival ban/Pre Mental Misstep era.

People should think before they start whining, especially about Legacy. What are we, preteens that can't get laid?

[dirtyapes]

What decks were killed by MM and what decks are really hurt by it leaving? I can't figure out how this banning really makes sense. And as others have pointed out, why can't they find things to unban? I hate limiting the card pool in the format unless something is terribly wrong, ex. Hulk Flash.

[Rood]

Dreadnought is a real card again. Happy day.

[honestabe]

WoTC is 2 for 2 in Modern updates that make me feel like I've been trolled

I'm indifferent about misstep in Legacy. I doubt it was too good, but I'm sure it was annoying to everyone I was misstepping; thought I really hate to see cards banned

Pretty pumped about getting FoF back in type 1 though. Believe it or not, Vintage is probably the best format right now

[Rizso]

Now we return to our regularly scheduled programming; the exhausting to watch Spiral Tide mirror matches that add almost a half an hour to the end of each round.

Dont worry about that they will get stuck in the counterbalanace!

[Lancer]

Yep DCI/Wizards never fails... those that cry the loudest wins!

[Julian23]

Counterbalance is a control deck silly.

Joe, improve your manners or get out. Apart from that, Counterbalance is far from a real and dedicated control like Landstill. You keep refusing to acknowledge other people's arguments in other threads which is super annoying already. Now you troll again, stop it unless you lost all self respect.

You see where this is going, right? - Bardo

[Tammit67]

*Echoes all posts already made in this thread, except for the trolls*

EDIT: Especially in regards to Roodmistah (Dreadnought/stifle decks), and Cook (Boners/Instant/Storm)

[dontbiteitholmes]

Force of Will has long been thought of as a card that helps keep combination decks in check in Legacy and Vintage. However, it doesn't directly help decks that aren't playing blue. One idea that was floated was creating a similar card that could be played in nonblue decks. When Phyrexian mana was designed, it was an opportunity to create such a card. R&D wanted a card that could help fight combination decks, and could also fight blue decks by countering cards such as Brainstorm. Clearly printing a card like this has a lot of risk, but there is also the potential for helping the format a lot. The risk is mitigated, because if it turns out poorly, the DCI can ban the card.

Unfortunately, it turned out poorly. Looking at high-level tournaments, instead of results having blue and nonblue decks playing Mental Misstep, there are more blue decks than ever. The DCI is banning Mental Misstep, with the hopes of restoring the more diverse metagame that existed prior to the printing of Mental Misstep.

God damn I hope they figure out the bolded part some day.

The worst bannings on this list by far are the Extended bannings, because that means they plan on keeping this farce of a format around. When will WotC understand that no one wants to play shitty 4 year Extended, AKA "The same Standard DTBs you got tired of playing against for 2 years, now come play against them for 2 more."
Yay WotC, really? You mean if I go to an Ext GP in the next 3 years I'll get to play vs. Caw Go again? Super-fucking-duper.

[PyreDream]

Oh sweet irony.

Whiners on this thread whining that MM was banned due to whiners. How pathetic.

Whiners on this thread whining about whiners on this thread whining that MM was banned due to whiners?

The Source - now with 33% more irony.

[crovakiet]

The real problem with Misstep being banned so soon is that its highly doubtful that any of the other 1 drop banned cards will ever come off the list. They are practically 'cemented' in now that misstep is banned.

[Bruticus]

What I don't get is why people are whining about CounterTop. The archetype was already in decline during post Survival ban/Pre Mental Misstep era.

People should think before they start whining, especially about Legacy. What are we, preteens that can't get laid?

Sorry, mom. Next time I'll ask permission. I mean, if it's all right with you?

[dontbiteitholmes]

What I don't get is why people are whining about CounterTop. The archetype was already in decline during post Survival ban/Pre Mental Misstep era.

People should think before they start whining, especially about Legacy. What are we, preteens that can't get laid?

Yeah I don't think Countertop is really even a deck anymore. I mean unless Snapcaster changes something it doesn't have stellar matchups vs. any of the really relevant decks (Zoo, Merfolk, Midrange Bant).

[Finn]

33% more. I see what you did there. Very creative. I guess the not-so-subtle difference between whining and gloating is lost on those who need a tissue.

Also, I would be surprised if Snapcaster was able to help out CB in the form it looked last I saw it. That deck was a bit low on inst/sorc for a reliable use I'm guessing.

[Humphrey]

Legacy suddenly becomes the comboformat modern was yesterday.
I dont expect a diversified metagame since Tendrils and Hightide Decks are the best decks available once again.
They practically killed Stoneblade and Maverick, oh boy.
At least ill try to play Canadian once again.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't think it's that bad. Legacy was still competitive Pre-MM banning. It's not like what's happening to Modern.


-True, Modern did get gutted pretty badly. Such a shitty format, lmao.



Oh sweet irony.

Whiners on this thread whining that MM was banned due to whiners. How pathetic.

- Stating facts != whining. But nice try Finn. :)



Yeah I don't think Countertop is really even a deck anymore. I mean unless Snapcaster changes something it doesn't have stellar matchups vs. any of the really relevant decks (Zoo, Merfolk, Midrange Bant).

- So what deck will keep Storm in check?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Legacy suddenly becomes the comboformat modern was yesterday.
I dont expect a diversified metagame since Tendrils and Hightide Decks are the best decks available once again.
They practically killed Stoneblade and Maverick, oh boy.
At least ill try to play Canadian once again.

We don't become a combo format. I mean we return to where we were 5 months ago up Batterskull and Dismember. Well, I think the only reasonable option here is to play Merfolk until people put away the combo decks again.



- So what deck will keep Storm in check?

Team America

[KevinTrudeau]

So what deck will keep Storm in check?

Blue Stifle decks/Counterbalance.

[Shax]

Well, I think the only reasonable option here is to play Merfolk until people put away the combo decks again.

You mean lose matches to the combo decks? TES has a surprisingly good matchup against Merfolk, more so with Mental Misstep banned.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Blue Stifle decks.

Yeah that too, fish with Snapcaster.



Well, I think the only reasonable option here is to play Merfolk until people put away the combo decks again.

You mean lose matches to the combo decks? TES has a surprisingly good matchup against Merfolk, more so with Mental Misstep banned.

I hear people say this all the time, but it seems in practice it doesn't always work out this way.

[menace13]

While MM might be the only true reactive spell on the Legacy banned list (please correct me if I'm wrong), I can see that banning MM will increase diversity and that's fine with me.


Mana Drain, but that stops being reactive once the player untaps with Drain mana.

[Beatusnox]

please correct me if i am wrong, but i dont remember storm dominating the format pre misstep - post survival. Also wasnt counterbalance falling apart as one of the powerhouse decks before misstep anyway?

As a belcher pilot one thing i noticed was that many people used misstep wrong anyway, countering the first one drop they saw, intead of the biggest threat. Please counter the probe i was using for storm count anyway and let my riite of flame go.

[Michael Keller]

What I'm most interested in seeing is how many playable, viable CMC=1 cards will increase in price due to the banning of an uncommon Magic card.

[Demonic_Attorney]

Yeah I don't think Countertop is really even a deck anymore. I mean unless Snapcaster changes something it doesn't have stellar matchups vs. any of the really relevant decks (Zoo, Merfolk, Midrange Bant).

I concur.

All these people talking about counterbalance making a miraculous comeback and being a tier one deck again in the legacy format is not plausible or reasonably practical. Given the present metagame, even without mental misstep banned, it still has a lot of bad matchups right now.

Counterbalance may see some or little play as oppose to virtually no play as has been the case this year in 2011; however, it is unlikely that counterbalance will see much play on the 5k circuit and I suspect it will not see the top eight of any large scale legacy events in the near future like Grand Prixs or Star City Games Opens.

[Tammit67]

I hear people say this all the time, but it seems in practice it doesn't always work out this way.

It is about even.

[Humphrey]

please correct me if i am wrong, but i dont remember storm dominating the format pre misstep - post survival. Also wasnt counterbalance falling apart as one of the powerhouse decks before misstep anyway?


Spiraltide was everywhere and clearly a broken deck. Only the pricetag on Candelabras prevented something much worse.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I hear people say this all the time, but it seems in practice it doesn't always work out this way.


I once saw a TES vs. Merfolk matchup in which the TES player managed to win through something like 2 Stifles, 3 Forces of Will, two Dazes, and two Cursecatchers. It was insane.


EDIT: Guess I should have attended the GP in my city. Could have done decently, and it was my last chance to use Misstep. Oh well.

[menace13]

33% more. I see what you did there. Very creative. I guess the not-so-subtle difference between whining and gloating is lost on those who need a tissue.

Whining or Gloating, different sides of the same coin.

[rufus]

Spiraltide was everywhere and clearly a broken deck. Only the pricetag on Candelabras prevented something much worse.

And Snapcaster Mage probably fits in there too.

[Tammit67]

Spiraltide was everywhere and clearly a broken deck. Only the pricetag on Candelabras prevented something much worse.

...sry, whut?

That is just not true.

[DragoFireheart]

I concur.

All these people talking about counterbalance making a miraculous comeback and being a tier one deck again in the legacy format is not plausible or reasonably practical. Given the present metagame, even without mental misstep banned, it still has a lot of bad matchups right now.

Counterbalance may see some or little play as oppose to virtually no play as has been the case this year in 2011; however, it is unlikely that counterbalance will see much play on the 5k circuit and I suspect it will not see the top eight of any large scale legacy events in the near future like Grand Prixs or Star City Games Opens.

- I guess time will tell then...

[caiomarcos]

Green Sun's Zenith
On turn one, this can give the acceleration of a Llanowar Elves by getting a Dryad Arbor. On later turns, it can get a large creature or a one-of "toolbox" creature such as Gaddock Teeg. While this is interesting, it is also too efficient. If one intends to build a deck that has turn-one accelerants, Green Sun's Zenith is a great choice. If one wants to more access to utility green creatures, Green Sun's Zenith is a great choice. If one wants to more reliably get a large green creature, such as a Primeval Titan, onto the battlefield, Green Sun's Zenith is a great choice. However, this ends up with fewer different decks being played in practice, as Green Sun's Zenith is such a good choice that there are fewer green decks that do anything else. The DCI hopes that banning Green Sun's Zenith increases diversity among Modern green decks

Change GSZ for Goyf, make the necessary adaptations and then you get the situation we have in Legacy for the last few years. Super efficient card that is by far the best option for many different situations, so 90% of the time green is played solely to fit Goyf in whatever deck you want to and not much more. We got used to it, but the argument still stands and Goyf still is the most stifling card ever to exist in Legacy.

[Humphrey]

...sry, whut?

That is just not true.

ok, i checked the t16 scg lists and probably your right. Hightide had a peak like Hivemind did and then wasnt getting any good results.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I once saw a TES vs. Merfolk matchup in which the TES player managed to win through something like 2 Stifles, 3 Forces of Will, two Dazes, and two Cursecatchers. It was insane.


EDIT: Guess I should have attended the GP in my city. Could have done decently, and it was my last chance to use Misstep. Oh well.

Yeah, well that's 12 cards that didn't get the Merfolk player any closer to winning the game. You can only stick your finger in the dam so long, merfolk can put on pressure while playing Forces, Dazes, Stifles, and Spell Pierces.

[Bahamuth]

Spiraltide was everywhere and clearly a broken deck. Only the pricetag on Candelabras prevented something much worse.

This is just bullshit. Spiral Tide has no actual advantage over all sorts of other combo.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Change GSZ for Goyf, make the necessary adaptations and then you get the situation we have in Legacy for the last few years. Super efficient card that is by far the best option for many different situations, so 90% of the time green is played solely to fit Goyf in whatever deck you want to and not much more. We got used to it, but the argument still stands and Goyf still is the most stifling card ever to exist in Legacy.

Just stop.


This is just bullshit. Spiral Tide has no actual advantage over all sorts of other combo.

Running Force of Will to deal with hate bears and way more filter doesn't count?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I dunno, I think High Tide is very clearly the new best deck. If Counterbalance can find a way to beat it, that might be enough. Then Fish show back up...

I mean I understand why they banned MM but it doesn't seem to really solve the blue problem.

[Humphrey]

no to mention some nonblue decks were just starting to test them more intensive, like maverick or goblins.


This is just bullshit. Spiral Tide has no actual advantage over all sorts of other combo.

-monoU
-Cunning Wishboard
-Force of Will
-Carddraw

[dontbiteitholmes]

I dunno, I think High Tide is very clearly the new best deck. If Counterbalance can find a way to beat it, that might be enough. Then Fish show back up...

I mean I understand why they banned MM but it doesn't seem to really solve the blue problem.

That's exactly what I was saying, now I feel like I have to play blue or at least heavy disruption to contend with all the combo that is back to having a completely lopsided matchup vs. "fair" decks without Force.

[rufus]

I dunno, I think High Tide is very clearly the new best deck. If Counterbalance can find a way to beat it, that might be enough. Then Fish show back up...

With Innistrad, there a couple more cards for consideration with red or black splash high tide, but I think mono U is still going to be the best option... Solidarity beats spring tide, right?

[Jade]

If I could legitimately play Solidarity again, I'd be the happiest legacy player in the whole wide world.

[Worm1605]

What a bunch of B.S. I guess the day of the deck builder is dead and now we just have to all play the same 5 top decks until the banned and restricted announcement is made. Just when you think they couldn't f it up anymore...

[SlopeeJ]

This is just bullshit. Spiral Tide has no actual advantage over all sorts of other combo.

This is clearly not true, force of will must make a combo deck better. Tutoring for the pact counter..... Can't be serious? Really?

[Gheizen64]

Funny that they mention the fact the card is played in nonblue decks as a con of the card. It's a good thing. And banning MM won't fix the blue dominance at all, it's funny that they ban card filters in all format except legacy. Now we are back to aggro lists being bye for storm.

No unbans seriously sucks.

[Solar Ice]

I'll comment when I'll get back from work, but all I can say is : YEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS!!!!

I have never been so relieved, when it came to MtG. Good riddance Misstep.

[Bahamuth]

-monoU
-Cunning Wishboard
-Force of Will
-Carddraw

The deck better be mono U, because it needs way to many land to win. Cunning Wish is also not an advantage at all, because it costs 3. That's a million in Legacy. Other combo has Burning Wish as well. The carddraw is only good combo. FoW is a decent card, but not nearly enough reason to run it over a deck that can just win 2 turns earlier.

[TkDodo]

Anyone up for a sidebet that the same people who were whining that Mental Misstep should be banned (and are soo happy now that it happened) will be whining again how SD.Top and Counterbalance have to be absolutely banned because OMG this so so format-warping in 2-3 months....

[routlaw]

Anyone up for a sidebet that the same people who were whining that Mental Misstep should be banned (and are soo happy now that it happened) will be whining again how SD.Top and Counterbalance have to be absolutely banned because OMG this so so format-warping in 2-3 months....

Top/CB were already having some issues before MM came out. I don't see how the ban suddenly resolves those issues.

[ivanpei]

As much as I weep for my pile of now useless missteps (jap foil and English foils!!), it probably is good for the format in general. Something from blue had to go. Blue was just too good. I'm looking forward to a once again wide open field.

[Lemnear]

Anyone up for a sidebet that the same people who were whining that Mental Misstep should be banned (and are soo happy now that it happened) will be whining again how SD.Top and Counterbalance have to be absolutely banned because OMG this so so format-warping in 2-3 months....

SDT, LED, Show & Tell and Time Spiral ... we had this discussion in the B&R thread here on the board before Misstep was printed and I predicted that we'll revisit that mindset in the next 6 months.

Zoo/Goblins/Meerfolk crush Team Amerika/Countertop but looses to SpiralTide/TES resulting in a discussion how to kill... sorry "weaken" ... combo-decks.



The only hope for counterbalance is Stoneforge Mystic with a good anti creature layout like Bolt/Lavamancer maindeck. Past in Flames pushes Storm and SpiralTide can do tricks with snapcaster (which should half in price w/o misstep).

P.S. Banning Misstep but not Aether Vial is a mistake if you want to revive the meta

[cheerios]

so long misstep, hope to see you again in my lifetime :(

[Purgatory]

It's okay guys, we got this.

- Me and every other TA pilot in the world

[ivanpei]

P.S. Banning Misstep but not Aether Vial is a mistake if you want to revive the meta

Ur, no. Snapcaster is still pretty insane.

Flashing back a Hymn to Tourach/Stifle gives me wet dreams.

[Humphrey]

I dont expect to see the glorified metagame some people including wizards expect now. In a few weeks there will be another 4-5 Tier1 Decks dominating the T16 like now. And theyre going to be blue.

I hope the conclusion will be to unban some cards, instead of going the modern route of banning more cards.

Mental Misstep was the best thing that happened to Legacy in the past years and I hope the whiners will notice that now its gone.

[luckme10]

Guess it's time to change the banner again.

[Final Fortune]

What is it with everyone saying Tendrils decks are going to make a sudden comeback and ruin the format? Any Mental Missteps are going to arguably be replaced with Spell Snare or Spell Pierce in the MD and aggro-control will have the same counter density as before. About the only leg up Tendrils gets is that Xantid Swarm is more reliable out of the SB. This match up always comes down to whether or not aggro-control SBs for the match up, not which counter spells it uses MD.

High Tide on the other hand looks pretty damn scary again.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Changing one card for another card of a similar function but a lower power level weakens a decklist. People shouldn't just assume decks will be the same but replacing MM with Spell Snare, in fact that's kind of silly.

Although blue will still be dominant so High Tide is a much better bet than Tendrils.

Actually I'm expecting the meta to be much more blue than before.

[Leftconsin]

Misstep allowed totally non-blue decks to act like blue in a narrow, but relevant range. Now we have to play the real thing again. I guess at the end of the day they asked "Is nearly everyone playing it?" and got a yes.

The Modern bannings make it more obvious as to what they want the format to be, and will ban everything and anything stat stands in the way. Zoo is the fastest deck. Period. All other decks need to control zoo to live long enough to win.

[f|i[p]]

They should have just banned brainstorm if they want to lower the power level of blue... seriously.... and they should clearly see that brainstorm has a crazy power level since they banned all its try hard look a likes in modern...

[tsabo_tavoc]

Yep DCI/Wizards never fails... those that cry the loudest wins!

Sigged, so much truth!

For the Legacy part, I did not expect, but I am not surprised due to all the whiners. Hell, I know I am happy. I don't have to think about slotting Dredge hates for the GP because I will dust off my good old decks to Storm, Storm, Storm, be it The Epic Storm or High Tide. So happy!

[Final Fortune]

Changing one card for another card of a similar function but a lower power level weakens a decklist. People shouldn't just assume decks will be the same but replacing MM with Spell Snare, in fact that's kind of silly.

Although blue will still be dominant so High Tide is a much better bet than Tendrils.

Actually I'm expecting the meta to be much more blue than before.

My point was/is Force of Will, Daze and Mental Misstep compared to Force of Will, Daze and Spell Snare isn't going to lead to an imbalance in matchup % between aggro-control and Tendrils combo. Obviously tho' Spell Snare isn't a direct substitution for Mental Misstep in all decks i.e. NO RUG. doesn't want either Spell Snare, Spell Pierce or Daze in place of Mental Misstep.

People are acting like Mental Misstep was the glue holding the Tendrils combo match up together, and it's bull shit.

[nwong]

My point was/is Force of Will, Daze and Mental Misstep compared to Force of Will, Daze and Spell Snare isn't going to lead to an imbalance in matchup % between aggro-control and Tendrils combo. Obviously tho' Spell Snare isn't a direct substitution for Mental Misstep in all decks i.e. NO RUG. doesn't want either Spell Snare, Spell Pierce or Daze in place of Mental Misstep.

People are acting like Mental Misstep was the glue holding the Tendrils combo match up together, and it's bull shit.

It was - for non-blue, non-black decks.

[ddt15]

Ah that little mini FoW/Drain in one is now banned. Good riddance. :tongue:

[Bahamuth]

Although blue will still be dominant so High Tide is a much better bet than Tendrils.

Actually I'm expecting the meta to be much more blue than before.

I see no reason either of these. As far as I'm concerned, 7 Chant Tendrils combo will beat blue decks much better than Spiral Tide does. That deck isn't capable of the tricks Solidairty is. Also, Goblins will be a very good deck again, which already is plenty of reason for blue to be worse.

[The Big Ragu]

Hooray! Legacy doesn't suck anymore.

[4eak]

I didn't like playing against MM. I wasn't sure if it was broken though. From a personal play standpoint, I like the ban, but from the perspective of precedent and decision procedures for banning, I don't like this ban.

I can only assume the metagame will speed up dramatically. Let's see if Counterbalance, Merfolk, and TA will be able to keep the format in check. Also, I wonder if Chalice will make a comeback.


peace,
4eak

[PanderAlexander]

Damn, I have 3 playsets of MMS (4x Japanese, 4x Chinese, 4x English), but the ban is good, the card wasn't broken but the format wasn't as fun with more free counters.

[Nidd]

I think I'll have to look for a card that can take MMS's place in Affinity...

[clavio]

The good thing about the commentary is that they are still thinking about legacy when they print cards. They knew giving us a toy like MM would be a gamble, but they went ahead and did it anyway. I like that.


And I basically agree with what 4eak said.

[Gui]

Unfortunately, it turned out poorly. Looking at high-level tournaments, instead of results having blue and nonblue decks playing Mental Misstep, there are more blue decks than ever. The DCI is banning Mental Misstep, with the hopes of restoring the more diverse metagame that existed prior to the printing of Mental Misstep.

Honestly, I love the banning, and I love the reasoning. And I enjoyed pre-MM meta as well.

[xfxf]

For all the "format is diverse again" discussions I'd like to lay out an approximate list of decks buried and revived with the banning of Mental Misstep. Then maybe we can have a more objective, clearer picture if that's really the case or not. Please feel free to contribute to the list.

Buried:
UW Stonebalde
UW Landstill
BUG Landstill
NO RUG -> Will probably transform back to Canadian Thresh
Reanimator
Maverick -> Will fold to combo pretty easily. I think it will be as viable as Goblins in a format with MM.

Revived:
ANT
TES
High Tide
Goblins
Counterbalance

So we lost decks like Reanimator and Maverick and we lost control decks (also haven't mentioned mid-range). We gained three combo decks (good luck playing non blue decks), most boring control deck to play against of all times and another tribal deck (we already had "Vial, turn guys sideways" in Merfolk, might as well play the same thing in red coat now).

Doesn't seem like a better meta to me.

[DragoFireheart]

For all the "format is diverse again" discussions I'd like to lay out an approximate list of decks buried and revived with the banning of Mental Misstep. Then maybe we can have a more objective clearer picture of if that's really the case or not. Please feel free to contribute to the list.

Buried:
UW Stonebalde
UW Landstill
BUG Landstill
NO RUG -> Will probably transform back to Canadian Thresh
Reanimator
Maverick -> Will fold to combo pretty easily. I think it will be as viable as Goblins in a format with MM.

Revived:
ANT
TES
High Tide
Goblins
Counterbalance

So we lost decks like Reanimator and Maverick and we lost control decks (also haven't mentioned mid-range). We gained three combo decks (good luck playing non blue decks), most boring control deck to play against of all times and another tribal deck (we already had "Vial, turn guys sideways" in Merfolk, might as well play the same thing in red coat now).

Doesn't seem like a better meta to me.

My theory:

-Goblins will be goblins.

-Storm is going to make a strong comeback. TES and Spiral Tide will be shaking up the format.

- In response, Counterbalance decks will be toying with new stuff like Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull. Don't be surprised to see Blade CounterTop.

- I think No RuG is NOT going to die. They will adjust their deck. RuG Decks have beenly slowly developing before MMS anyways.

This is what I expect the meta to possibly look like:

Dredge
TES
High Tide
No RuG
Blade CounterTop
Merfolk
Goblins
Zoo

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Seriously guys? The sky isn't falling yet chicken little. I have not a clue why you think the top decks are going to rotate just because they lost Misstep. NORUG is still a good deck, it just runs daze or snare instead now. And I have no idea why everyone thinks that Stoneblade is suddenly dead. There has literally never been a time when we didn't have both Batterskull and Misstep. Honestly, it seems to me that SFM+Skull is going to be as good vs aggro as ever. Maybe we should all just calm down for a week or two and see what actually happens.

[DragoFireheart]

Seriously guys? The sky isn't falling yet chicken little. I have not a clue why you think the top decks are going to rotate just because they lost Misstep. NORUG is still a good deck, it just runs daze or snare instead now. And I have no idea why everyone thinks that Stoneblade is suddenly dead. There has literally never been a time when we didn't have both Batterskull and Misstep. Honestly, it seems to me that SFM+Skull is going to be as good vs aggro as ever. Maybe we should all just calm down for a week or two and see what actually happens.

- I agree. I'm not sure if you aimed that post at me or not.

[ShiftyKapree]

Them Banning MM is the day I felt when brainstorm got restricted in Vintage, a broken and crushed man.
As for the bannings in Modern, the format still has alot of developement room, I really wish BB came off the list because it only wasn't good in Fae but rock decks used to use it too

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Uhhh. SFM + Batterskull clearly becomes much worse against aggro as the strategy can no longer stop a turn 1 play like Lackey or Vial or Lavamancer as easily, and can't stop a Chain Lightning on SFM as easily.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I see no reason either of these. As far as I'm concerned, 7 Chant Tendrils combo will beat blue decks much better than Spiral Tide does. That deck isn't capable of the tricks Solidairty is. Also, Goblins will be a very good deck again, which already is plenty of reason for blue to be worse.

Generally speaking, 7 counters > 7 chant effects.

Also, better card draw.

Goblins might be good except that is has a horrid combo matchup.

[Tacosnape]

The meta will look like High Tide, Dredge, and ANT. Other decks aren't a good choice here.

Snapcaster Mage, I'm pretty sure, is going to vault High Tide to being the #1 deck.

[Gui]

No RuG
Just a small nerd rage here

Seriously, it's already bad enough calling a deck which is primarily UG as RUG instead of UGr, now you make it's most powerful color a lower case letter? It should be UGr NO, but at least call it NO RUG if not.

/nerdrage

[DragoFireheart]

Generally speaking, 7 counters > 7 chant effects.

Also, better card draw.

Goblins might be good except that is has a horrid combo matchup.

- What are your thoughts on No Rug?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Nourg.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

- What are your thoughts on No Rug?

It was really dependent on it being the fastest reliable combo in the format. Now a turn 3 Progenitus looks fairly mild.

[DragoFireheart]

It was really dependent on it being the fastest reliable combo in the format. Now a turn 3 Progenitus looks fairly mild.

- That's a good point. Do you think Counterbalance will return? What do you think the meta will look like?

[Di]

The meta will look like High Tide, Dredge, and ANT. Other decks aren't a good choice here.

Snapcaster Mage, I'm pretty sure, is going to vault High Tide to being the #1 deck.

I'm on the fence with the Snapcaster theory here. On paper it seems incredible, but in testing I've found it to be rather poor in the deck. It's particularly awful post-Spiral when you have no graveyard, and the only applications I've really had for it were either flashing back a Tide or Turnabout pre-Spiral, which indicated I would generally have a lot of extra mana anyway and Snapcaster was unnecessary, or I played it late into a post-Spiral and it was basically win-more. I'm just not convinced it will benefit the deck as you already have to cut the spells you'd want to flash back, whether they are draw, counters, or untappers.

Although I will agree with your alleged tier 1. I don't see Counterbalance being that strong through Dredge and midrange decks. It'll at least be viable though.

[ivanpei]

The only way I can justify playing Countertop again is if Storm is like a quarter of the field. Aether Vial is still a major problem and its not an easy problem to solve. I can see URG Counter top with Goyf and Grims doing well in this meta. Throw in Trinket Mage, Basilisk Collar and Snapcaster Mage and it should turn out to be an interesting Brew. Good against tribal, storm (especially with SB blasts) and fairly dependable in the Control mirror. Grims are infinitely more potent now since Mental Missteps are out of the picture. Folk has very little answers to a resolved Grim.

Btw mana-less dredge seems a bit pointless now. Back to good old fashion LED-less dredge? Speed is definitely very important.

[xfxf]

I'm just pissed to see the little green man return. I don't like playing against weenie style decks in general (zoo is different, it has Sligh roots and that's OK in my book), I could tolerate Merfolk because it was fellow blue but can't bear Goblins! :D

Joking aside, it's true that speculating about the new meta so early isn't very accurate.

However, if it turns out like the list DragoFireheart posted it means we have a good amount of combo (ANT, TES, High Tide, Dredge, Hive Mind) and aggro (Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins) with just CounterTop to represent control.

I don't like playing Magic in such an environment and was hesitant to start playing Magic again (although I was following Legacy closely). After Mental Misstep was printed I started playing Magic again and started buying some duals and stuff. Now I lost my excitement again :)

Oh and people who were rampant about Mental Misstep killing diversity in Legacy don't seem to be interested in my buried/revived decks comparison on last page. I wonder why.. :D

[Mr. Safety]

The only thing that irks me about Mental Misstep being banned is that I don't have Force of Wills (being a budget player) so Mental Misstep was my go-to free counterspell to boost my lousy Faeries deck, lol. I think it's healthy for the format, though. I think the cross-section of decks was pretty exciting in legacy pre-MM.

Modern will adapt, I think. The banned list isn't as long as Legacy's yet, so that's a good sign. Losing the good cantrips will hurt any possible control-brew as much as the combo decks, but hey, it's a start. The format is so damn new, it shouldn't affect too many people. It's still finding it's identity. Borderline playable cards like Mystic Speculation and Telling Time will now see some play because there are literally *zero* better options. Hell, even Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions will be played again.

[voltron00x]

...sry, whut?

That is just not true.

but at least two people did well with it at a couple events!

[ivanpei]

@ bilb_o, Thanks for reminding me. I worked alot of Buried Ooze back in the day and looks like it can make a come back now. Nothing's been printed to change the deck much, but that deck is really fast and consistent. It still gets beaten by an overload of hate/counters, but so do most combo decks. The advantage it has over Storm is that it can board into Show and Tell and dodge all kinds of hate.

Also, @ Pander- Painter back in business? Lots of fish to feast on. ;)

[Pastorofmuppets]

I'm just excited that I can play Elves! again without always losing my 1st drop.
Still though, as someone who uses Magic to make money, I'm disappointed in the lack of unbannings. Throw me a friggin' bone here, Wizards!

[Rizso]

We are gonna see so much Flusterstorm on Flusterstorm action!

[OurSerratedDust]

What is it with everyone saying Tendrils decks are going to make a sudden comeback and ruin the format? Any Mental Missteps are going to arguably be replaced with Spell Snare or Spell Pierce in the MD and aggro-control will have the same counter density as before. About the only leg up Tendrils gets is that Xantid Swarm is more reliable out of the SB. This match up always comes down to whether or not aggro-control SBs for the match up, not which counter spells it uses MD.

High Tide on the other hand looks pretty damn scary again.

I have to agree with this. Storm wasn't crazy popular before MM, and I don't really foresee it being a really common deck. Storm will definitely be good in the meta, but the deck has a learning curve that prevents some people from picking it up.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

My point was/is Force of Will, Daze and Mental Misstep compared to Force of Will, Daze and Spell Snare isn't going to lead to an imbalance in matchup % between aggro-control and Tendrils combo. Obviously tho' Spell Snare isn't a direct substitution for Mental Misstep in all decks i.e. NO RUG. doesn't want either Spell Snare, Spell Pierce or Daze in place of Mental Misstep.

People are acting like Mental Misstep was the glue holding the Tendrils combo match up together, and it's bull shit.

The difference in power level beween MM and its replacements is palpable, and becomes especially important post-board. FoW and Daze alone are just not enough against a good combo player. Whittling away a combo player's life total is very important, but difficult to do if you have to keep one or two mana open for the first three turns so that you can cast a single Spell Pierce. MM really helped those of us playing aggro-control by allowing us to spend the first couple of turns developing our board positions, and then keeping our mana open. Post-board, we still brought in more hate, which maximized our counterspell density. Without MM, it becomes much harder to do all those things simply because combo is so fast and can already survive so much hate. It's doable, but it was a lot easier with MM than it is without it. MM went a VERY long way towards adjusting those matchup percentages.

[The Treefolk Master]

There are 3 kinds of Magic players:

1-Players good enough to play storm (very few).

2-Players good enough to realize they are not good enough to play storm (very few).

3-Players not good enough to realize they are not good enough to play storm (99% of the storm players). These can then be divided into:

a) Players who are so unsure about how to play the deck that they wait until turn 18 to go off, only to realize they are at a negative life total, and that their opponent is eating a ham sandwich three blocks away after an easy 2-0

b) Players so blind they always try to go off turn 2, which leads to them realizing that they are 7 mana and 12 spells short of killing their opponent.

Since most storm players don't know how to properly play their decks, mediocre players like me can kill them with a counterspell when they screw up with the order of spells.

[SpikeyMikey]

Seriously guys? The sky isn't falling yet chicken little. I have not a clue why you think the top decks are going to rotate just because they lost Misstep. NORUG is still a good deck, it just runs daze or snare instead now. And I have no idea why everyone thinks that Stoneblade is suddenly dead. There has literally never been a time when we didn't have both Batterskull and Misstep. Honestly, it seems to me that SFM+Skull is going to be as good vs aggro as ever. Maybe we should all just calm down for a week or two and see what actually happens.

NO RUG dies because everyone else stops running Misstep (which is damn near completely irrelevant against it) and starts running Spell Pierce (which is very relevant against GSZ and NO, 2 of the 3 threats the deck has). Same for Stoneblade. Those decks thrived because they got mileage out of Misstep while completely dodging it. As much as everyone has a leghump on for Brainstorm, Misstepping a Brainstorm is simply a tempo play; it doesn't actually answer a threat. When your threats are 2/3/4 mana, Misstep just isn't going to shine against you. Now that other blue mages will be forced to play counters that are relevant against the (current) top decks, those decks are going to sink again. I think Bant goes back to being the color of NO as Zoo gets better in a format without MM and Stoneblade gets worse. NO RUG will be too slow to deal with Zoo (RWM goes a long way) consistently

[Gui]

@SpikeyMikey

Your ideas are good, they really are, but here's a constructive criticism:
Hit Enter a few times when you finish an Idea and starts another. All your posts seems to be Wall of Texts oO

[tsabo_tavoc]

There are 3 kinds of Magic players:

1-Players good enough to play storm (very few).

2-Players good enough to realize they are not good enough to play storm (very few).

3-Players not good enough to realize they are not good enough to play storm (99% of the storm players). These can then be divided into:

a) Players who are so unsure about how to play the deck that they wait until turn 18 to go off, only to realize they are at a negative life total, and that their opponent is eating a ham sandwich three blocks away after an easy 2-0

b) Players so blind they always try to go off turn 2, which leads to them realizing that they are 7 mana and 12 spells short of killing their opponent.

Since most storm players don't know how to properly play their decks, mediocre players like me can kill them with a counterspell when they screw up with the order of spells.

What a joke! You would be right if you were referring to 99% world population. 99% Magic players won't fall into either case (a, b) after goldfishing a couple of games.

[Richard Cheese]

Damn...what am I going to replace Misstep with in my janky Pox build?

Also, pretty surprised they actually went through with it, although by looking at Modern and Extended, it seems WotC is taking a much more aggressive approach to shaping their formats.

[Draener]

The degree in which they are aggressively updating the banlist is a wee bit disturbing. Don't win more than a couple SCG's, or expect your deck neutered. I feel almost like hightide / storm will be viable until the next ban, in which those decks will get key cards removed.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I'm just really pissed that non-blue is now a total dog to combo again. It doesn't have to be Misstep, but we need something. Even if it was...

~Not MMcardname~ R
Instant
You may play ~this~ without paying it's mana cost by discarding an additional card card at random from your hand. Counter target instant or sorcery with cmc=1.

I would actually be fine with something even this shitty, but we need something.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm just really pissed that non-blue is now a total dog to combo again. It doesn't have to be Misstep, but we need something. Even if it was...

~Not MMcardname~ R
Instant
You may play ~this~ without paying it's mana cost by discarding an additional card card at random from your hand. Counter target instant or sorcery with cmc=1.

I would actually be fine with something even this shitty, but we need something.


- I'll make you a deal: If you agree to have Aether Vial and Wasteland banned, then I agree that Lion's Eye Diamond and Bridge from Below should be banned.

[dontbiteitholmes]

- I'll make you a deal: If you agree to have Aether Vial and Wasteland banned, then I agree that Lion's Eye Diamond and Bridge from Below should be banned.

I don't want anything banned. I just don't think it's reasonable that only one of 5 colors can interact with combo turn 0, except for Mindbreak Trap, which is shit.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't want anything banned. I just don't think it's reasonable that only one of 5 colors can interact with combo turn 0, except for Mindbreak Trap, which is shit.

- Well, they made mental misstep for the aggro kiddes but apparently they got jealous that blue used it better than them.

[CorpT]

- Well, they made mental misstep for the aggro kiddes but apparently they got jealous that blue used it better than them.

Are you almost done being all butthurt about this and going around to all the threads telling everyone the sky is falling because combo is coming back? It'd be cool if you were almost done.

[nedleeds]

Next modern announcement:

- All non-Land, non-Creature, non-Burn cards are banned

[Hoojo]

I'm pretty disappointed that Mental Misstep is banned. I like the card and I felt things were fairly diverse.

Modern is way to swingy with its bannings; they obviously want it to be all creature decks it seems.

[Lancer]

Next modern announcement:

- All non-Land, non-Creature, non-Burn cards are banned

I would like modern to start from M10 and up. (Because M10 is really the modern version of magic)

[Richard Cheese]

Oh God I just realized that AnT/TES/High Tide/Elves/Zero/etc are COMPLETELY UNSTOPPABLE now, especially for aggro! Misstep completely fixed the bad combo matchup for Zoo and Goblins, and now those decks are just going to be dead in the water again!!

[Gui]

Do people have Analysis Articles to share? Just saw 1 @ TS yet.

[Hoojo]

From the article, it seems they badly want Legacy to represent all colors, but they simply can't do that without crushing every powerful blue card OR unbanning all the powerful cards in the other colors. Even then, blue would need bannings.

With Modern, they should be allowed to experiment in making an Eternal format that is not blue, but I think Legacy would need way to many changes to do the same.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Good thing they banned misstep. Now everyone who couldn't figure out a way to beat 4 cards in every deck can go back to losing to different cards in every deck.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Oh God I just realized that AnT/TES/High Tide/Elves/Zero/etc are COMPLETELY UNSTOPPABLE now, especially for aggro! Misstep completely fixed the bad combo matchup for Zoo and Goblins, and now those decks are just going to be dead in the water again!!

This post is amazing. I'm ready for some TES and High Tide action, at least until people play CB :(.

[nedleeds]

You can unban stuff like Mind Twist but ... the irony is that it would be played in blue control decks. Land Tax likely would meet the same fate, what's better than taxing for 3 then Brainstorming ???

The real problem blue card is Brainstorm ... clearly. Instead of banning misstep I would have liked to see some unbannings and 3-4 months of play.

Unban Black Vise
Unban Earthcraft
Unban Mind Twist
Unban Memory Jar :cool:
Unban Land Tax

and let it hit the f'ing fan and see what people can build.

The only issue at that point is the lemming mentality of most players, but there are enough people building decks and testing that things would work itself out.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I don't think the Misstep format had itself figured out yet. Way too soon for the ruling, IMO.

Also, I really, really hate High Tide being playable again.

[joven]

conserning the banning of Mental Misstep:
It's good for the format and for MtG. But I'm still disgruntled why they even printed it in the first place. WotC does so much shit and the players have to suffer for it. Although it really was foreseeable that MM will be banned sooner or later, I managed to lose money by this banning. :(

concerning Modern:
It's a brand new format, it will take time till the banned list will stabilize.


Is there a newsletter or something from WotC where I can register to get informed early when banned lists change?

[fallenphoenix]

I feel like they shot their own leg with that announcement.
Perhaps MMS is a little far on the powerful side but certainly not more than other cards that are unbanned atm (Bob, SFM, Zenith just to name a few).

Also, what MMS did, it kept decks with important one-drops in check. That applied to Zoo, Elves, Goblins etc as well as to TES/ANT, High Tide and Painterstone.
How any non-blue/black deck's going to interact with the latter three is beyond me.
So much for fixing blue in the meta, looks like I'm not going to put down my Forces in the next several months (whereas I was slowly realizing I don't have to play blue anymore in the former meta).

€: Modern? Muahahaha! "We have a top8, let's ban'em!"

[nedleeds]

I don't think the Misstep format had itself figured out yet. Way too soon for the ruling, IMO.

I agree. There aren't enough people with the free time and card pool to create and play new decks in such a short period. I had been playing U/b Tezz control with Chalices and a super strong long game and smashing decks with Mental Misstep (and getting run over by Zoo). The card irritated me but should have been given some more time (and unbannings) to work itself out.

I think High Tide will be constrained by cost ... that is until they randomly ban Candelabra or some other cool card that's been around for 15 years.

[Ben]

they can always just put Timespiral back on the list.

I do not think High Tide deck is any more healther to Legacy than the current mono U control and friends.
It just takes too long for the players to do their "math" while the other sits there doing nothing. You probabaly can take a nap before they end up killing you or accidentally fizzles

[lordofthepit]

Can someone rage about the Extended bannings so we can have more angst about non-Legacy formats in the Legacy section? Thanks!

[Zilla]

I do not think High Tide deck is any more healther to Legacy than the current mono U control and friends.
It just takes too long for the players to do their "math" while the other sits there doing nothing. You probabaly can take a nap before they end up killing you or accidentally fizzles
Agreed. Every time I watch a High Tide player go off I think of this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM2A20Qq55o&NR=1

[Jak]

Agreed. Every time I watch a High Tide player go off I think of this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM2A20Qq55o&NR=1

I wish I could sig that. Still laughing lol.

[The Wolf]

Maybe I'm out of it right now, but I don't remember some long combo winter before misteps printing. That card was beyond boring to play with and against. WOTC gets +1 from me

[DragoFireheart]

Are you almost done being all butthurt about this and going around to all the threads telling everyone the sky is falling because combo is coming back? It'd be cool if you were almost done.

- Why would I be butthurt? I get to play CounterTop again. If anything, aggro players should be butthurt because now combo decks are going to resurge.


Oh God I just realized that AnT/TES/High Tide/Elves/Zero/etc are COMPLETELY UNSTOPPABLE now, especially for aggro! Misstep completely fixed the bad combo matchup for Zoo and Goblins, and now those decks are just going to be dead in the water again!!

- Yep...

I guess I don't understand why some insist on making sure Goblins is a viable deck. Old Theshold lists with Mystic Enforcers are no longer viable. Why would we expect every deck to continue to be viable? Isn't that the very definition of stagnation?

[Rune]

Maybe I'm out of it right now, but I don't remember some long combo winter before misteps printing. That card was beyond boring to play with and against. WOTC gets +1 from me

There wasn't. It just seems like some people have forgotten that cards like Spell Pierce exist. It's generally much harder to build blue decks when you no longer have FoW 2.0, because you need to use more narrow and answers instead, so I understand all the panicking.

[DragoFireheart]

There wasn't. It just seems like some people have forgotten that cards like Spell Pierce exist. It's generally much harder to build blue decks when you no longer have FoW 2.0, because you need to use more narrow and answers instead, so I understand all the panicking.

Even decks packing those spells + Counterbalance can still easily lose to storm.

[Admiral_Arzar]

- Yep...

I guess I don't understand why some insist on making sure Goblins is a viable deck. Old Theshold lists with Mystic Enforcers are no longer viable. Why would we expect every deck to continue to be viable? Isn't that the very definition of stagnation?

Your sarcasm detector is broken.

Anyways, I have no idea why people are crying so much about the return of Tide. It's not like the deck kills on turn 1-2 or is amazing against all forms of disruption or something. The deck always has gotten shit on by Hymn.dec, although it is very good against midrange and slow blue decks. Decks like Junk and Eva Green (which may return with Misstep gone) are much better against Tide than they are against TES/ANT. Team America and other aggressive tempo decks shit on all of them. Not to mention they all lose to Counterbalance - I don't really see what people are complaining about.

EDIT: Tide has an uber consistent turn 4 kill (and occasional t3). It is definitely possible to race the deck with fast draws out of Goblins, Zoo, and sometimes even Merfolk. The same can't really be said about Ad Nauseam based storm combo, but those decks are somewhat less consistent and easier to disrupt, which makes up for the speed differential.

[DragoFireheart]

Your sarcasm detector is broken.

Anyways, I have no idea why people are crying so much about the return of Tide. It's not like the deck kills on turn 1-2 or is amazing against all forms of disruption or something. The deck always has gotten shit on by Hymn.dec, although it is very good against midrange and slow blue decks. Decks like Junk and Eva Green (which may return with Misstep gone) are much better against Tide than they are against TES/ANT. Team America and other aggressive tempo decks shit on all of them. Not to mention they all lose to Counterbalance - I don't really see what people are complaining about.

- Many are claiming that CounterTop is a bad deck.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Even decks packing those spells + Counterbalance can still easily lose to storm.

Any deck can lose to any other deck given the right circumstances. You will be heavily favored against storm though, most likely. I've lost to Zoo playing TES a number of times, despite how favored the matchup is (for example). Shit happens.


- Many are claiming that CounterTop is a bad deck.

That's because it had fallen out of favor before Misstep, due to a number of factors. GSZ and all the G/X midrange decks associated with it, along with CB-resistant combo decks (see Forgemaster, SNT, NO, Sneak Attack, etc.) and large numbers of Vial decks were all heavily played. Personally, I think that a Thopters shell with Mystic + Batterskull and an Enlightened Tutor toolbox could be the nuts in the new metagame, as it has countermagic, CB/Top, and plenty of answers and lock pieces for both aggro and combo matchups.

[CorpT]

Even decks packing those spells + Counterbalance can still easily lose to storm.

You must really suck at CounterBalance to be this bent out of shape worrying about Storm dominating everything. You know, like it did before Misstep. Oh wait...

Find a way to say this shit without flaming. -zilla

[xfxf]

I guess I don't understand why some insist on making sure Goblins is a viable deck. Old Theshold lists with Mystic Enforcers are no longer viable. Why would we expect every deck to continue to be viable? Isn't that the very definition of stagnation?

This.

It's not a problem when a red deck with almost the same maindeck can be Tier1-1.5 for 4-5 years. It's not a problem when an aggro players dream artifact which shuts down any blue based control deck gets printed (aether ehm ehm...), but it's the format's end when blue finally gets an answer and control decks start existing again.

Given time people would have adjusted. I was trying to get back into Magic for years with Legacy but the trio of aggro, combo, aggro-control and lack of real control decks was putting me off. With Mental Misstep the format was fun and balanced for me and I started playing again. With Mental Misttep gone I find it difficult to find a deck which is both viable and suits my playstyle.

Couple this with the fact that Wizards actually succumbed to whining of blue haters and turn guys sideways people, makes me really lose interest in Magic.

If Mental Misstep gets banned (which it did) I'd like to see Aether Vial get banned too. (This comes out from frustration and I'm just writing it to get of my chest :smile:)

[Admiral_Arzar]

This.

It's not a problem when a red deck with almost the same maindeck can be Tier1-1.5 for 4-5 years. It's not a problem when an aggro players dream artifact which shuts down any blue based control deck gets printed (aether ehm ehm...), but it's the format's end when blue finally gets an answer and control decks start existing again.

Given time people would have adjusted. I was trying to get back into Magic for years with Legacy but the trio of aggro, combo, aggro-control and lack of real control decks was putting me off. With Mental Misstep the format was fun and balanced for me and I started playing again. With Mental Misttep gone I find it difficult to find a deck which is both viable and suits my playstyle.

Couple this with the fact that Wizards actually succumbed to whining of blue haters and turn guys sideways people, makes me really lose interest in Magic.

I feel like this will be falling on deaf ears, but a format with 80% blue decks and almost no aggro OR combo is not "balanced."

[xfxf]

Admiral_Arzar,

It's true I'm a bit heated about the ban but I think I'll still be able to participate in analytical discussion :). Zoo and Merfolk was quite viable and amongst the top decks, Maverick was quite strong in Europe and pulling quite a few tournament wins. Why would you say that aggro was non existent in MM meta? SCG circuits and SCG Opens meta only represents local American meta.

And even in SCG combo wasn't non existent. Hive Mind was doing good but yes I agree that overall combo was underrepresented. Still the meta could have adjusted.

Now my only viable option for control will be Counterbalance. Even with Mental Misstep there were at least 3 viable very different aggro archetypes (Zoo, Merfolk, Maverick).

[Admiral_Arzar]

Admiral_Arzar,

It's true I'm a bit heated about the ban but I think I'll still be able to participate in analytical discussion :). Zoo and Merfolk was quite viable and amongst the top decks, Maverick was quite strong in Europe and pulling quite a few tournament wins. Why would you say that aggro was non existent in MM meta? SCG circuits and SCG Opens meta only represents local American meta.

And even in SCG combo wasn't non existent. Hive Mind was doing good but yes I agree that overall combo was underrepresented. Still the meta could have adjusted.

Now my only viable option for control will be Counterbalance. Even with Mental Misstep there were at least 3 viable very different aggro archetypes (Zoo, Merfolk, Maverick).

The meta had degerated into a bunch of blue decks with similar shells that just had different means of winning, and natural predators of those decks (Maverick, Dredge, Zoo). Zoo wasn't even doing well against most of the blue decks (except Merfolk, of course) but was being played anyway. Hive Mind hasn't done particularly well since the first month or two it was around, and other combo (unless you count NO RUG as combo, which is incorrect - it's really a hybrid of all three archetypes) was basically dead. Note that Hive Mind plays a very similar shell to the blue decks - it just has combo pieces in place of creatures and more library manipulation. Aggro was present, but it wasn't winning much, despite the fact that it's supposed to be good against blue. Fast combo was basically dead, as were a lot of midrange archetypes that weren't blue.

It is unfortunate that slow control will recede back into the shadows - but I would rather have a balance of different aggro, midrange, and combo decks in their place. Counterbalance will be here, and honestly, traditional slow control decks haven't been viable in Legacy for years before Misstep, due to a variety of factors that are outside the scope of this thread. Personally, I would much rather have a format with 20+ different distinct viable decks, and a lack of a predictable meta (as opposed to the same half dozen decks continually). I enjoyed post-survival, pre-misstep Legacy more than any other format, simply because so many different decks were viable and winning. I mean sure, a format in so much flux sucks for the people who like everything nailed down so they can try and beat everything with metagaming. I prefer diversity, and I'd rather not know what I'm playing against next than know I'll be playing against the same few blue decks every round.

[Gheizen64]

Admiral_Arzar,

It's true I'm a bit heated about the ban but I think I'll still be able to participate in analytical discussion :). Zoo and Merfolk was quite viable and amongst the top decks, Maverick was quite strong in Europe and pulling quite a few tournament wins. Why would you say that aggro was non existent in MM meta? SCG circuits and SCG Opens meta only represents local American meta.

And even in SCG combo wasn't non existent. Hive Mind was doing good but yes I agree that overall combo was underrepresented. Still the meta could have adjusted.

Now my only viable option for control will be Counterbalance. Even with Mental Misstep there were at least 3 viable very different aggro archetypes (Zoo, Merfolk, Maverick).

BUG Standstill will also be a real deck after Liliana hit the format imho. In general however control and midrange got shafted pretty hard.

[Admiral_Arzar]

BUG Standstill will also be a real deck after Liliana hit the format imho. In general however control and BLUE midrange got shafted pretty hard.

Fixed that for you. The Misstep ban is good news for B/G/x decks like Junk, Eva Green, etc.

[Richard Cheese]

Maybe when they return to New Phyrexia, we'll get something like this:

Brain Fart
Instant
{PU}
Counter target Instant or Sorcery spell with converted mana cost 1

and everyone can be happy! Aggro doesn't get nerfed, Vial is safe, and everyone gets some combo hate. Who wants to play against combo anyway?? If I wanted to watch some nerd masturbate, I'd get on Omegle.

[DragoFireheart]

You must really suck at CounterBalance to be this bent out of shape worrying about Storm dominating everything. You know, like it did before Misstep. Oh wait...

- Oh look, a personal attack. Lemme guess, you're either still in high school or just got into college? Damn kids lmao, but nice try. ;)



Any deck can lose to any other deck given the right circumstances. You will be heavily favored against storm though, most likely. I've lost to Zoo playing TES a number of times, despite how favored the matchup is (for example). Shit happens.

- Unless I got the nuts draw, my deck could consistently lose to storm due to how fast they can go off. The only reason storm isn't a huge threat is because it's hard to play compared to a CBT deck.



That's because it had fallen out of favor before Misstep, due to a number of factors. GSZ and all the G/X midrange decks associated with it, along with CB-resistant combo decks (see Forgemaster, SNT, NO, Sneak Attack, etc.) and large numbers of Vial decks were all heavily played. Personally, I think that a Thopters shell with Mystic + Batterskull and an Enlightened Tutor toolbox could be the nuts in the new metagame, as it has countermagic, CB/Top, and plenty of answers and lock pieces for both aggro and combo matchups.

- I can expect that sort of deck to pop up. Gotta go get me some SFM and batterskulls and try and make it.

[sdematt]

Wizards is obviously solving their problem of not truly playtesting cards before printing by banning. They're supplementing actual testing and design with the use of the BanHammer; what a horrible practice.

Honestly, I'm not sure if Wizards actually knows what they're doing when it comes to Eternal Formats. I honestly feel like we needed more time. They just printed the damn card. Just because some player can't play their same 75 from 1996 doesn't mean a card needs to get banned.

I'm honestly thinking there should be a council running the show, like in EDH. Legacy players know what needs to be banned, and what doesn't. I think that'd be a much better system then Wizards derdling around and continually banning cards because some noob can't play Goblins from five years ago.

-Matt

[Ozymandias]

Is it healthy to play versus 4 NO RUG and 2 Stoneblade decks in 6 rounds of Swiss? I don't think it is.

[Antonius]

Is it healthy to play versus 4 NO RUG and 2 Stoneblade decks in 6 rounds of Swiss? I don't think it is.

that sounds like a 6-0 day to me. =)

[xfxf]

Gheizen64,
I'm not confident about BUG landstill, I think it will be crushed by both merfolk and goblins in general.

Admiral_Arzar,
When you are talking about certain decks being natural predators of certain others and existing just because of that, it doesn't sound much different from non MM meta. With mental misstep combo was underrepresented, without it control is underrepresented. "More diversity" from a specific point of view doesn't mean a healthy balanced format. There are players who enjoy different aspects of the game as well, which are (and were for a long time, hence my reason for not getting back into Magic 'till this summer) missing in Legacy.

By different aspects I don't mean "beating everything with metagaming", I'm mostly a casual player (who happens to stick playing within format boundaries). I just like control decks and this comes from having started playing Draw-Go then Counter Phoenix than Forbiddian for some years. Not because they were the best decks of their time nor because blue beats everything.

That's why I still feel like allowing aggro people toy with their selected color (Vial Elves, Vial Goblins, Vial Merfolks) and not allowing control people toy with their selected colors (UW Stoneforge, BUG Landstill) shows the approach of Wizards clearly. Which means they will accept imbalance towards certain play styles over others.

[CorpT]

When was the magical time when control was not represented that everyone thinks existed before Mental Misstep where apparently aggro and combo were the only playable decks?

[DragoFireheart]

That's why I still feel like allowing aggro people toy with their selected color (Vial Elves, Vial Goblins, Vial Merfolks) and not allowing control people toy with their selected colors (UW Stoneforge, BUG Landstill) shows the approach of Wizards clearly. Which means they will accept imbalance towards certain play styles over others.

- Translation: Wizards likes aggro decks and doesn't like control or combo. I present Modern as my evidence.


When was the magical time when control was not represented that everyone thinks existed before Mental Misstep where apparently aggro and combo were the only playable decks?

Since Landstill fell out of favor and CounterTop decks were really aggro/control mid-rangish decks?

[funyun45]

Once again WoTC justifies their position with absurd reasoning that shows they don't even understand the formats of their own game. They banned MM in modern for bogus reasons and the same for Legacy. Will MM being gone help make blue less dominant? Don't make me laugh. Merfolk shrugs and resolves vial more, high tide comes back, and counterbalance rejoices. Meanwhile nonblue midrange decks, the sort of thing WoTC supposedly does all this for, get boned in a faster, more combo-happy meta.

[Richard Cheese]

Wizards is obviously solving their problem of not truly playtesting cards before printing by banning. They're supplementing actual testing and design with the use of the BanHammer; what a horrible practice.

Honestly, I'm not sure if Wizards actually knows what they're doing when it comes to Eternal Formats. I honestly feel like we needed more time. They just printed the damn card. Just because some player can't play their same 75 from 1996 doesn't mean a card needs to get banned.

I'm honestly thinking there should be a council running the show, like in EDH. Legacy players know what needs to be banned, and what doesn't. I think that'd be a much better system then Wizards derdling around and continually banning cards because some noob can't play Goblins from five years ago.

-Matt

Well MaRo basically said in that video on ChannelFireball that they don't really test eternal formats, they just manage them with the banned lists.

Link (http://www.channelfireball.com/home/the-professors-episode-162-pro-tour-philly/)

[DragoFireheart]

Well MaRo basically said in that video on ChannelFireball that they don't really test eternal formats, they just manage them with the banned lists.

Link (http://www.channelfireball.com/home/the-professors-episode-162-pro-tour-philly/)

- So HOW do they determine what they ban or don't ban?

[xfxf]

When was the magical time when control was not represented that everyone thinks existed before Mental Misstep where apparently aggro and combo were the only playable decks?

By everyone probably you are referring to me? In all my posts I try to reference CounterTop as the control choice of a MMles meta to prevent misrepresentation of my words in such fashion but I guess I'm not a good enough wordslinger :)

Yes control was represented in CounterTop. I don't like it being the only viable option for control when vial decks are like jelly beans. Plus there is Zoo and Affinity..

Meta predators such as Team America or Can. Thresh is always valid for "blue domiance", I'm just arguing that if Goblins can stay viable for 5 years and people think they have the right to whine over it after it gets shut down by Mental Misstep I think I have the right to expect decks such as UW Landstill live a little longer than 4 months.

[Humphrey]

- So HOW do they determine what they ban or don't ban?

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ug/7.jpg

[funyun45]

The difference in power level beween MM and its replacements is palpable, and becomes especially important post-board. FoW and Daze alone are just not enough against a good combo player. Whittling away a combo player's life total is very important, but difficult to do if you have to keep one or two mana open for the first three turns so that you can cast a single Spell Pierce. MM really helped those of us playing aggro-control by allowing us to spend the first couple of turns developing our board positions, and then keeping our mana open. Post-board, we still brought in more hate, which maximized our counterspell density. Without MM, it becomes much harder to do all those things simply because combo is so fast and can already survive so much hate. It's doable, but it was a lot easier with MM than it is without it. MM went a VERY long way towards adjusting those matchup percentages.

This.

[sdematt]

I think the solution to Mental Misstep is to print a Spell Snare that counters CMC 1 if they really don't want Misstep in the format. It isn't free, so you'll have to keep mana up, and it's blue. It would be purely defensive at that point, as you'd have to do nothing on your first turn to keep mana up to counter their CMC 1 spell. Seems fine to me.

I tihnk another solution was to unban Mystical tutor and keep Mental Misstep, just to see what happens. If it gets crazy, just ban it again. It's not like they haven't done it before.

Like I said, I'd rather have a B/R list managed by a council of players, deckbuilders, and some people who are invested in the format and know what they're talking about, from the major Legacy scenes (Us, Europe, and Asia/Aus, not just using the Starcity circuit to determine how prolific a deck is).

Thoughts?

-Matt

[Koby]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ug/7.jpg

Quoted (many times before) for Truthery.

[dahcmai]

Did you guys forget something? I was winning quite a bit with Stoneblade/Patriot when it was still in it's infancy way back in March. That was before Misstep was printed. Batterskull is what made me finally have a good edge against aggro and let me pull those clunky Moats out of that deck. Misstep was just a bonus, albeit a big bonus, but it's far from making that deck obsolete. It just means I get to have my Spell Snares back in the deck again. I was missing them anyway. Oh wait, I got a Snapcaster Mage lately also. That's cool too.

Think it's dead, I don't mind.



Also, did I miss that combo heavy format that was right before New Phyrexia came out? Must have missed it.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I totally agree w the above poster. When was this combo dominance after MT got banned? Storm combo got harder since u couldn't play the idiot proof Saito lists and Reanimator (which is a duuuurrrr combo deck anyway) took a hit. Then MM came out and made combo suck a little more ... I fail to see when decks like TES/ANT/DD were just owning the format.

The banning of MM made my day. Not because I am a combo player ... but because I like diversity. I have the cards to build like 8 different combo lists and I play different ones all the time. When I went to SCG Atlanta ... it was just a bunch of morons playing Stoneforge, RUG, and Merfolk (which Dredge OWNS). That was it ... everywhere I looked thats all I saw, perhaps this is just a SCG thing ... not sure. This is the exact reason I quit playing standard, because I wanted to play against a variety of decks ... not the same shit everytime.

With MM going Gobbos get better, Suicide variants get stronger, Lands! variants can return ... so there will be a variety of things out there. I don't care if combo beats them or loses to them, hell, I went like 7-0 in 2x tournaments against Counterbalance before MT got banned with DDFT and I was bored. I kept playing against the same shit half the time ... and thats what I hate, seeing the same shit again, and again, and again. MM being gone will hopefully make things more diverse and interesting.