[INN]Flame on!

[Darkenslight]

Flame on! is a mono-Red Ritual deck that abuses the interactions between Past in Flames, Pyromancer's Swath and Grapeshot. The deck casts Ritual-effects, such as Rite of Flame and Pyretic Ritual to generate mana, then casts either:

a) Pyromancer's Swath and Grapeshot; or
b) Double Grapeshot.

Also included, as an alternative win, is Goblin Charbelcher

Here's a sample decklist (NOT OPTIMISED):

Land: 16

8 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire

Draw: 8

4 Burning Inquiry
4 Goblin Lore

Fast Mana: 18

4 Rite of Flame
3 Pyretic Ritual
3 Desperate Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Manamorphose

Combo: 14

4 Past in Flames
4 Pyromancer's Swath
4 Grapeshot
2 Goblin Charbelcher

Protection: 4

4 Pyroblast

Sideboard: 15 (rough guess, mostly meta based)

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Ravenous Trap
3 Meta slot, most likely Blasphemous Act

I'm not sure how potent it is yet, but I suspect that it will have a goldfish of around Turn 3.

Alternative potential inclusions:

Gamble: Probably has a place here somewhere, but I'm not quite sure what to cut for it.

Burning Wish: Definitely potential for a Red Wishboard, but I'm not sure how likely it is that you'll fill it up, or what with.

Staggershock/Rift Bolt: for a more Burn-oriented list, you'd probably remove some of the actual Rituals for these.

Chrome Mox: possibly for more explosive Storming, probably in the LED slot.

Noxious Revival: for getting back Swaths discarded to the draw spells.

Thought and critiques are, as always, appreciated. However, I would prefer that this list stay mono-Red, if possible.

[Draener]

Replace Charbelcher with Empty the Warrens. There is a decent shot that charbelcher won't kill them, while 14 goblins on turn 1 might.

[thefringthing]

This doesn't strike me as better than 1-Land Belcher.

[Draener]

The advantage of the deck over playing belcher is that it doesn't just lose if it's key spell is countered ( past in flames) as you can flash it back. The drawback, of course, is that it is much slower.

[jlagrav]

Just looking at the list idk if there is enough card draw to find the kill piece.

Also, pyromancers accestion can help build up storm and double those mana accelarators. And with generating that much man a you're almost better just using banefire

[Lancer]

This may sound insane but why not toss in 3 to 4 copies of Price of Progress?

[Draener]

I don't think that sounds crazy at all. Price of progress would probably be worth a good 4 or 5 storm.

[Lancer]

I don't think that sounds crazy at all. Price of progress would probably be worth a good 4 or 5 storm.


I just wished there was some good red storm spells, Grapeshot is so freaking hard to pull off in Cheerios, most of the time I can net out 15 damage but 20 isnt an easy number. And it looks like more work for you since your not pulling cards from your deck.

[Darkenslight]

This doesn't strike me as better than 1-Land Belcher.

It's not meant to be a Glass Cannon deck, like Belcher.


This may sound insane but why not toss in 3 to 4 copies of Price of Progress?

It's interesting to think about as a possibility.


Just looking at the list idk if there is enough card draw to find the kill piece.

Also, pyromancers accestion can help build up storm and double those mana accelarators. And with generating that much man a you're almost better just using banefire

Hmm...that's a possibility, but would that take the Swath slot? If so, then you'd probably need to add more burn to the mix.

On the draw, Browbeat would be a stupid inclusion, right? I mean, this might actually be one of the few deck that could use it, even if it's remote. Combined with Ascension, that could get...insane. Hmm...Let me get to you guys with a potential alternative decklist, or better yet, get cracking! :)

[jlagrav]

OK so here is what I'm thinking, I haven't had time to test it (damn work!) But I think it should work.



8 Mountain
8 Fetches

4 Burning Inquiry
4 Goblin Lore
4 Browbeat

4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Past in Flames
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Banefire



So basically you get Pyromancer Ascension active which doubles all your mana spells and then use Past in Flames to fire off a giant Banefire and win. :-)

[Lancer]

In my wildest dreams I would never thought to see browbeat used as a real card (at least outside of burn)

I think your right about Pyromancer Ascension but I'm not feeling Banefire. I guess I need to test this out but there are too many times I've see my friends try to pull of mana combo's for a big drainlife and seldom hit above 15 (sure Pyromancer may fix that)

[Kagehisa]

Gamble at its full power could be read as something like :

Hellbent — If you have no cards in hand, instead search your library for a card with flashback, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.

A nice tutor for Past in Flames, if you build a deck around.

[jlagrav]

In my wildest dreams I would never thought to see browbeat used as a real card (at least outside of burn)

I think your right about Pyromancer Ascension but I'm not feeling Banefire. I guess I need to test this out but there are too many times I've see my friends try to pull of mana combo's for a big drainlife and seldom hit above 15 (sure Pyromancer may fix that)

I personally feel that its easier to get to 21 mana for banefire then 20 storm for grapeshot. Sure Swath helps with the storm count but I hate the whole discard your hand at end of turn. Idk it could work, I'll have to try both versions and see.

Also, I can't believe I didn't think of gamble, I think its an auto 4 of so it can basically be past in flames # 5-8

[Darkenslight]

Is this a deck that could use the manalicious Ruby Medallion?

[UrDraco]

OK so here is what I'm thinking, I haven't had time to test it (damn work!) But I think it should work.



8 Mountain
8 Fetches

4 Burning Inquiry
4 Goblin Lore
4 Browbeat

4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Past in Flames
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Banefire



So basically you get Pyromancer Ascension active which doubles all your mana spells and then use Past in Flames to fire off a giant Banefire and win. :-)

You could use this deck for either Modern or Legacy if they didn't ban rite of flame.

[jlagrav]

OK so here is what I'm thinking, I haven't had time to test it (damn work!) But I think it should work.



8 Mountain
8 Fetches

4 Burning Inquiry
4 Goblin Lore
4 Browbeat

4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Past in Flames
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Banefire



So basically you get Pyromancer Ascension active which doubles all your mana spells and then use Past in Flames to fire off a giant Banefire and win. :-)



OK so after testing this a bunch its pretty bad. First let me just say I exchanged the browbeats for gambles. But yea I always find that I'm discarding the wrong cards to burning inquary and goblin lore. This slows down the deck consierbaly. So while yes this deck CAN win on turn 3 or 4 most of the time it doesn't go off until turn 6+.

Back to the drawing board lol

[rufus]

OK so after testing this a bunch its pretty bad. First let me just say I exchanged the browbeats for gambles. But yea I always find that I'm discarding the wrong cards to burning inquary and goblin lore. This slows down the deck consierbaly. So while yes this deck CAN win on turn 3 or 4 most of the time it doesn't go off until turn 6+.


If you're going to play the random discard package, then the primary plan would have to be to ramp up enough mana to go off from the graveyard directly. To really make that work, I think the deck has to splash for dredgers like life from the loam.

It's not that good fit for the past in flame concept, but you could also try to bank mana with cards like Tinder Wall or Orcish Lumberjack (use with Taiga).

It seems like playing Ideas Unbound and Careful Study (and the usual U cantrip suspects) could be a better package for the Rituals -> Past in Flame -> storm out game plan.

[Lancer]

If the intent is abusing the graveyard then why not use Entomb, then you can flashback entomb for another good card. Naturally if black is added you will have access to "Best black storm card ever made" and dark rituals.

note: I dont understand how DCI can ban Mental Mistep [and say it was intended for Legacy] when Past in Flames is a better version to Yawgmoth Will... how do I figure? Because Yawgmoth's Will cannot abuse Entomb... ~ so I dont think I would invest heavy into this card unless your planning to play type 1... [It will be banned]

[rufus]

If the intent is abusing the graveyard then why not use Entomb, then you can flashback entomb for another good card. Naturally if black is added you will have access to "Best black storm card ever made" and dark rituals.

note: I dont understand how DCI can ban Mental Mistep [and say it was intended for Legacy] when Past in Flames is a better version to Yawgmoth Will... how do I figure? Because Yawgmoth's Will cannot abuse Entomb... ~ so I dont think I would invest heavy into this card unless your planning to play type 1... [It will be banned]

Past in Flames is significantly weaker than Yawgmoth's Will:
Will allows playing cards other than instants and sorceries in the graveyard.
Will's casting cost is 1-2 lower.

In order to take advantage of a flashbacked Entomb or Gamble you have to recast Past in Flames, that's a pretty big CC, especially if you haven't repopulated your graveyard with ritual effects already in practical terms. Though pulling cards which are naturally playable from the graveyard might make some sense there's probably a bigger payoff for flashing back Brain Freeze or Glimpse the Unthinkable instead.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

4 Gitaxian Probe!
56 card combo deck! Synergy with Past in Flames AND Pyromancer Ascension! And of course some info about their hand :D

Maybe cut some fetches, so this deck will still be basically a non liferesource combo deck. <- weird sentence but you get it.

[Lancer]

Past in Flames is significantly weaker than Yawgmoth's Will:
Will allows playing cards other than instants and sorceries in the graveyard.
Will's casting cost is 1-2 lower.

The same argument was said about Mental Misstep in comparison to Force of Will... well it appears that Mental Misstep is much stronger then Force (ie, the card needs to be banned)

As for Past in Flames the card is better then Yawgmoth's Will, in a sense, since the cards you are flashbacking can put cards into the graveyard (as the old trusty Yawgmoth's Will removes those any such cards if they go to the graveyard)

The major difference between Flames and Will is your lacking the ability to pop artifacts back into play (sure there is more candy you can pop with Will, but we are talking about storm)


In order to take advantage of a flashbacked Entomb or Gamble you have to recast Past in Flames, that's a pretty big CC, especially if you haven't repopulated your graveyard with ritual effects already in practical terms. Though pulling cards which are naturally playable from the graveyard might make some sense there's probably a bigger payoff for flashing back Brain Freeze or Glimpse the Unthinkable instead.

I'm not sure if your Bullshitting yourself here or trying to bullshit me with your lack of understanding of graveyard abuse.

You cast Flames (no matter how) you can recast entomb, search for another card, recast that card too. The gamble effect is much better, play LEDS (no hand) flashback Flames, cast Gamble, seach and play the card from the graveyard... either case you CANNOT do this with Yawgmoth's Will.

[jlagrav]

im pretty sure that if the card isn't already in your graveyard when you cast past in flames it does NOT have flashback.

[Koby]

im pretty sure that if the card isn't already in your graveyard when you cast past in flames it does NOT have flashback.

We can assume that it works this way until a clarification in the FAQ will reveal otherwise. The wording does suggest it only grants spells currently present in the g/y the Flashback ability, similar to Rain of Filth

[Lancer]

Good point, it seems to suggest that but clarification is needed...

[rufus]

You cast Flames (no matter how) you can recast entomb, search for another card, recast that card too. The gamble effect is much better, play LEDS (no hand) flashback Flames, cast Gamble, seach and play the card from the graveyard... either case you CANNOT do this with Yawgmoth's Will.

If that were the case, the text would be:


Until end of the turn, instant and sorcery spells in your graveyard have flashback...

Rather than the actual text:


Each instant and sorcery card in your graveycard gains flashback until end...


Feel free to prove me wrong, but you'll most likely be wanting 2-5 mana source spells in addition to whatever business spell you're casting, so Gamble and Entomb might be good for getting Past in Flame into the graveyard, but don't really have the necessary card power to chain out of the graveyard.

[Lancer]

I do believe your more correct on this part.

[Darkenslight]

OK so here is what I'm thinking, I haven't had time to test it (damn work!) But I think it should work.



8 Mountain
8 Fetches

4 Burning Inquiry
4 Goblin Lore
4 Browbeat

4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Past in Flames
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Banefire



So basically you get Pyromancer Ascension active which doubles all your mana spells and then use Past in Flames to fire off a giant Banefire and win. :-)

See, the biggest problem, by far, in my testing is that you run out of gas faster, even, than 1-land Belcher. I was wondering about that. Obviously, browbeat is worse than Gamble, by a large margin, as well.

Here's my updated list:


8 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Pyretic Ritual

4 Overmaster
4 Gamble

4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Grapeshot
2 Empty the Warrens
2 Banefire
4 Past In Flame

I think that the Banfires have a place, in a sense that you can have a mini combo for Banefire, then Past and combo off again. The Overmasters are there for both the cantrip and for protection.

Anyone else, also willing to try this out?

[Fatal]

I don't like your version.. here is what I'm testing:


4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Past in Flames
4 Rite of Flame
4 Entomb
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire

//SB
1 Ad Nauseam
2 Echoing Truth
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Pyroblast
4 Dark Confidant
3 Extirpate


Build is stable, still thinking is 3 Past in Flames isn't overkill but every time I have it on hand it brings so much CA..

SB plan depends vs what are you playing, you have 4 antihate spells (bounce), 3 Extirpate which is very good, Confidants, and Pyro vs Counterbalance connected with discard. Confidant is an other draw engine which works great. I put Ad N if I have to race some combo.

New are entombs which are really MVP, putting PiF in gy if needed or if had PiF on hand any combo pace, also after you lose counter battle you can just put PiF and go on next turn.

[Darkenslight]

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Past in Flames
4 Rite of Flame
4 Entomb
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire

//SB
1 Ad Nauseam
2 Echoing Truth
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Pyroblast
4 Dark Confidant
3 Extirpate



That's an interesting list. I think, however, that it's more appropriate to the PiT discussion rather than this one. Have you ever found the lack of a basic Mountain to be a hindrance?

[Fatal]

Basic mountain is not nassacary, never hand problems with red mana since you can cast PiF from LED mana..