[Deck] CounterBlade

[DragoFireheart]

What is it: CounterBlade is my attempt at fusing the CounterTop (Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top) archtype with the Blade Control archtype (Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull) to form a deck that will cover it's own weaknesses by combining the two archtypes together. CounterTop is traditional weak to Aether Vial decks like Goblins and Merfolk while Blade Control is, since the banning of Mental Misstep, much weaker to storm decks like TES. CounterTop is strong against storm while SFM + Batterskull is strong against goblin/merfolk vial decks. In theory, the deck will cover it's own weaknesses.

Why should I play it: You want a blue deck that can fight combo decks while also being able to fight vial decks after the loss of Mental Misstep. CounterTop can protect SFM while SFM can help offset the issues CounterTop has with vial decks.

Core Cards: I see the following as the core cards:


4 StoneForge Mystic
1-2 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

4 Tundra


18 other lands
25-26 other non-land cards

Possible additions: The following cards make for excellent additions to this deck:

Grim Lavamancer: Splashing Red is a good choice for this deck and Grim is one of them. He acts as another source of removal for your deck and is great against Goblins and Merfolk. Furthermore, you can tempt players to throw their removal at him rather than your SFM, allowing you to drop your combo.

Sword of Fire and Ice: I'm predicting the meta will be heavy Goblins and Merfolk. This card utterly destroys either deck further, gaining you large amounts of card advantage while also removing their creatures. It's also great for any flying creatures you may have in your deck like Cliques. Speaking of which...

Sword of Feast and Famine: The other sword that is popular with Blade Control decks with enough creatures to use them. The abilities are not quite as good as the SoFI, but the protections are better for fighting aggro-heavy decks that use big green beaters.

Vendilion Clique: A great disruptive creature that further helps out our combo matchups, Clique is also good for carrying any equipment that your SFM may find.

Jace, The Mind Sculptor: He sorta goes without saying. He acts as card advantage and another way to win if attacking with a giant Germ won't work.

Example deck list:


Mainboard:

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sidebord:

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Spell Pierce
1 Sword of Fire and Ice


Notes:

- The sideboard I use is still under construction. I designed it to help with Show-n-Tell decks and Merfolk. It may change in a later iteration.

- Despite talk that SFM and CBT are mana intensive, they really aren't in practice. Simply focus on which ever combo you can get out first or, if you can, get the CBT combo out first to protect your SFM. Remember that SFM ability to drop a batterskull is an instant. This allows you to keep CBT mana open during your opponents turn and if they do nothing extremely threatening, you drop a batterskull at the end of their turn.

- Batterskull is amazingly good at stopping Empty the Warren or sometimes Bridge from Below tokens if they are not too numerous.

This deck is still under development in anticipation of the new meta. Feedback is welcome.

[yutang]

I have tried this out in Hanni's Countertop Walker thread:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20529-PRIMER-U-W-x-Countertop-Superfriends&p=588009&posted=1#post588009

My list is basically:

Manabase:
7 Island
2 Plains
1 Kor Haven
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn

1 Drop (13):
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile

2 Drop (11):
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell

3 Drops (5):
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Drops (4):
2 Jace 2.0
2 Elspeth 1.0

5 Drops (5):
4x Force of Will
1x Batterskull

I reckon we can do without the red splash and just go with straight up UW. We also need to work out this deck's weaknesses so that we can build an appropriate sideboard

[DragoFireheart]

I have tried this out in Hanni's Countertop Walker thread:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20529-PRIMER-U-W-x-Countertop-Superfriends&p=588009&posted=1#post588009

My list is basically:

'snip'

I reckon we can do without the red splash and just go with straight up UW. We also need to work out this deck's weaknesses so that we can build an appropriate sideboard

Not having red is bad since we have a very bad matchup vs Show n Tell decks. Post board, we could board in Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast to fight them. To lightly splash red for grims and sideboard material seems very much worth it considering we aren't running Wasteland/Mishra's Factories.

[Draener]

Despite what you say about the deck appearing more mana intensive then it is, I was still having problems with mana being my chief bottle neck. I also had the problem of drawing into the wrong combo in matchups where I only wanted one, and only had minimal ways of sorting out this problem.

I would suggest a sword of feast and famine over the second batterskull because the untap is exactly what you want in a deck like this. I have also tried including chrome mox in the list to mixed results.

[DragoFireheart]

Despite what you say about the deck appearing more mana intensive then it is, I was still having problems with mana being my chief bottle neck.

Give me examples of where you had this issue.

[Draener]

Give me examples of where you had this issue.

Alright. So I play against a friend playing an unknown deck. I win the die roll and open a hand of something like top, strand, brainstorm, tundra, balance, lavamancer, counterspell. Looks to be a pretty ideal hand.

I lay down a strand and crack it for island. Pass the turn.
He draws lays down tiaga, nactyl pass.
I brainstorm in reponse to the nactyl hitting mystic, fetch, and vendillion clique. I put back counterspell then fetch on top.
Untap, play tundra put down counterbalance.
He takes his turn, swings for 3, and lays down kird ape lavamancer. (Me 16, him 18)

I draw counterspell, put down top, fetch (uncracked) and pass the turn.

He drops his land swings for 5, leaving grim lavamancer untapped. I top to see a swords to plowshares and 2 lands. I could draw the swords and hit nactyl, but then he could plop down a pridemage. Also, I would be dead to lavamancer killing all my dudes. I take the damage (Me 11, him 17). He ships the turn.

I draw swords, swords lavamancer (shoots me for 2). Now, I'm in pretty rough shape. With two untapped mana, I try for a stoneforge mystic (Me 8, him 17). He bolts in responce to the search effect. I decide that I'm pretty toast if SFM mystic does not stick around here, so I draw with drop (Jace) and counter his bolt. Goodbye top.

He Draws, swings for 5 (Me 3, him 17). He tries for a chain lightning on me. Reveal blind flip... brainstorm. Whew... he taps him other two lands and helix's me.

[DragoFireheart]

Alright. So I play against a friend playing an unknown deck. I win the die roll and open a hand of something like top, strand, brainstorm, tundra, balance, lavamancer, counterspell. Looks to be a pretty ideal hand.

I lay down a strand and crack it for island. Pass the turn.


Why didn't you drop the top?

[Draener]

I didn't drop the top, because you want to use brainstorm to setup a counterbalance on turn 2. This way you don't have a turn of blind flip where you might have actually done nothing on turn 1 and 2.

If I was playing against storm with that hand and I dropped top, I would simply be dead to going off. Against zoo, if I dropped top, I would have no mana to balance pridemage if he came down. I would basically need to find a swords that turn with top.

[DragoFireheart]

I didn't drop the top, because you want to use brainstorm to setup a counterbalance on turn 2. This way you don't have a turn of blind flip where you might have actually done nothing on turn 1 and 2.

- And if you had that Top, you would have stopped his one drops. if you were that worried about pridemage, you could have gone top, then have mana open for counterspell on his pridemage. If not, THEN you could have brainstormed, dropped CB, etc.



If I was playing against storm with that hand and I dropped top, I would simply be dead to going off.

- You'd be dead regardless and should mull that hand if you feel that way. Hoping to brainstorm into a FoW is bad play.



Against zoo, if I dropped top, I would have no mana to balance pridemage if he came down. I would basically need to find a swords that turn with top.

- Read above. Anyways, I didn't see your issue with mana since I don't feel you made the correct plays. Against most decks you should have dropped the top right away and against storm you shouldn't have kept that hand if you felt that you had to brainstorm into a FoW. If anything, the mana issue was a result of you being too defensive and losing tempo from playing as such.

[Draener]

So I drop top and pass the turn... then he still drops the 2 1 drops. If I play down counterbalance, then he plays the 2 drops. Regardless of what you think, the play is not obviously wrong.

[DragoFireheart]

So I drop top and pass the turn... then he still drops the 2 1 drops. If I play down counterbalance, then he plays the 2 drops. Regardless of what you think, the play is not obviously wrong.

- My point is the example had nothing to do with mana issues using Stoneblade and Counterbalance. The issue is simply looking for a good play against zoo.

[Malakai]

I have high hopes for this thread. Let's not have it derailed into an argument.

For the record: against an unknown deck, you _always_ drop turn 1 Top on the play.

[lordofthepit]

I don't play a lot of Counterbalance, but all the good local players I respect will frequently use a turn 1 Brainstorm to set up the right Counterbalance on turn 2, even with a turn 3 top. It also gives you the option of protecting both elements from discard. From what I've seen of other people playing the deck, this is the optimal play against an unknown opponent, and it makes sense to me in theory.

Here are two well-respected Counterbalance players who hold the same opinion:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/initial-technology-pondering-legacy/
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19780_Fishing_Lessons_Pondering_Brainstorm.html

I have yet to read an article from anyone suggesting the contrary, but it might be out there.

[Mackan]

The only reason why I would ever burn a brainstorm t1 is in response to discard, to find a fow against combo or when I have mulliganed into a 5 with only 1 land but with a mystic/counterbalance. Even then I would probably only use brainstorm if he drops a fast 1-drop like nacatl or aether vial.

The reason is that you want to get rid of the wrong cards with brainstorm rather than finding the "right cards" by digging. The deck is reactive by nature after all:)

[Lord_Cyrus]

The reason is that you want to get rid of the wrong cards with brainstorm rather than finding the "right cards" by digging. The deck is reactive by nature after all:)

This reflects a misunderstanding of the CB archetype. The best thing you can possibly do is set up your CBT "combo" as fast as possible. What you want to do is get the engine online so you can start locking out your opponent and gaining massive CA by using 2 cards to cost your opponent 5 cards or more to try and remove/play around.

The only reason you might want to hold off on getting top/CB in play as fast as possible is if the opponent is combo and you must hold up mana for Spell Pierce/Counterspell to avoid immediate death. Otherwise you will always benefit from getting the combo into play before your opponent has a chance to react. This strategy isn't "reactive" at all. It is highly proactive. It is also highly effective at winning the game. The reason Misstep made CB unplayable is that it made the opportunity cost of playing out Top on the first turn unacceptably high. Now that you don't have to worry about getting 1/2 your combo blown out like that, CBT decks should start to succeed again.

EDIT: Forgot to say that none of this is in support of blowing your brainstorm t1 just to find the missing half of the combo. Personally I would only do that if 1) I have junk cards in my hand + a fetchland to shuffle them away, or; 2) I know more or less what my opponent is playing. Now, if you are experienced with your deck you will start to see more and more #1 situations. Learn to identify what makes a good hand and how you can use brainstorm to sculpt the ideal grip of 7 and you will be well on your way to becoming a better Legacy player (and a better Magic player in general). Experience will reduce the chances of making a serious mistake by casting brainstorm at any stage of the game, not just in the first few turns.

[Malakai]

Here's what I've been working on. It has tested very well.

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind-Sculptor
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island -- 2 Pyroblast from the board

Many people run a second Batterskull over the Sword, but I wanted more 3 drops, and I also wanted to ignore Knight of the Reliquary.

The Jaces are my least favorite cards in the deck; they're mainly there as a concession to the other Jace decks, which may be rapidly decreasing in number.

0 Snapcaster Mage
Recasting a Brainstorm or a Swords to Plowshares is some good, as would be a higher 2-drop count. However, while this is a cmc=2 card for Counterbalance, the card itself actually costs 3 (very seldom will it act as pseudo-removal in Legacy), and frankly I was worried about the deck not being quick enough. We've already got enough powerful late-game engines. That said, I would consider testing him in the two Jace slots--he seems like he can the same thing against Jace decks, while being a little better everywhere else.

[Lord_Cyrus]

0 Snapcaster Mage
Recasting a Brainstorm or a Swords to Plowshares is some good, as would be a higher 2-drop count. However, while this is a cmc=2 card for Counterbalance, the card itself actually costs 3 (very seldom will it act as pseudo-removal in Legacy), and frankly I was worried about the deck not being quick enough. We've already got enough powerful late-game engines. That said, I would consider testing him in the two Jace slots--he seems like he can the same thing against Jace decks, while being a little better everywhere else.

First, I like the list a lot. I think I may start playing this deck on MWS soon as a prelude to getting the cards together (have almost everything).

Yet I think your reasoning on Snapcaster is flawed. I think you should be looking at him as a body for Sword with the added value of recasting the best instant in your GY. When you look at it this way, it's fairly incredible. Think about why you would run a card like Dark Confidant in a tempo deck - mainly he gives you a clock while digging for that card that you need to break open the gamestate. Snapcaster does the same. It doesn't matter if he's not a relevant blocker; you don't need him to be. In fact if you use him to block anything other than a Confidant, a Goblin Lackey or another Snapcaster, I would say you are doing it wrong. You'd much rather get your immediate value (StP or Brainstorm) and have a body to attack with (hopefully soon to be equipped).

You do have the right idea about his usefulness against Jace, and this is where he really shines. Say they drop Jace, or really any planeswalker on an empty board. You reply with the Mage for value, while swinging into their walker for 2 points on the next attack phase. Suddenly, even if you only had 1 card in hand and nothing on the board, the situation has completely swung in your favor. Seriously; what are they gonna do? Bounce him? LOL. If one card makes Jace more unpopular in the near future, it will be Snapcaster.

[Malakai]

Clearly he's good against a Jace, but what if they have blockers?

I lot of people are talking about having a problem with Hive Mind. I bring in 2 Pyroblast and 2 Spell Pierce from the board. These serve to stop them from winning early, and from there they simply don't have enough protection to resolve their combo. Eventually you can establish CounterTop on 3, often floating a Force of Will on top as well.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Clearly he's good against a Jace, but what if they have blockers?


Then you wait until: 1) they attack, leaving them tapped out, or 2) you have a sword, or 3) you have removal.

Needless to say if they have Batterskull out, you might just be boned no matter what.... ;-P

[Misplayer]

Here's what I've been working on. It has tested very well.


What is the gameplan against a resolved Aether Vial early? All-in on SFM -> Batterskull?

[Malakai]

In the list I posted, you are weak to turn 1 Vial. You basically want to remove their Lords of Atlantis, put a Batterskull in play, then eventually find a Vedalken Shackles to shut down their combat phase. Snapcaster Mage would shine here over the Jaces.

If you want to have a CounterTop build that answers anything, you're generally looking at Trinket Mage package, and you're probably not running Stoneforge anymore.

Or you could just play UWR, adding a basic Mountain and Grim Lavamancer.

[rignes]

Here's what I've been working on. It has tested very well.

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind-Sculptor
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island -- 2 Pyroblast from the board

Many people run a second Batterskull over the Sword, but I wanted more 3 drops, and I also wanted to ignore Knight of the Reliquary.

The Jaces are my least favorite cards in the deck; they're mainly there as a concession to the other Jace decks, which may be rapidly decreasing in number.

0 Snapcaster Mage
Recasting a Brainstorm or a Swords to Plowshares is some good, as would be a higher 2-drop count. However, while this is a cmc=2 card for Counterbalance, the card itself actually costs 3 (very seldom will it act as pseudo-removal in Legacy), and frankly I was worried about the deck not being quick enough. We've already got enough powerful late-game engines. That said, I would consider testing him in the two Jace slots--he seems like he can the same thing against Jace decks, while being a little better everywhere else.

I'm intriqued by this build. But I only count 59 cards?

PS, I don't post here much. I should have just edited my last post, I didnt' know it would leave a noticed that I nuked a message. OOPS. :P

[Lord_Cyrus]

In the list I posted, you are weak to turn 1 Vial. You basically want to remove their Lords of Atlantis, put a Batterskull in play, then eventually find a Vedalken Shackles to shut down their combat phase. Snapcaster Mage would shine here over the Jaces.

If you want to have a CounterTop build that answers anything, you're generally looking at Trinket Mage package, and you're probably not running Stoneforge anymore.

Or you could just play UWR, adding a basic Mountain and Grim Lavamancer.

I don't think adding red is the answer... I opens you up to wasteland and I predict Stifles will be coming back in a big way.

I think Snapcaster improves the Merfolk matchup decently by allowing you to double up on removal, but certainly you will want to play some Llawans in the SB or something. Spell Pierce is a nice answer to Dismember as well. Vedalken Shackles should definately be considered if the meta turns back to a lot of aggro and zoo.

[Misplayer]

My concern was more about if you get behind on the board early (often after your opponent accelerates with Vial), you don't have any 'reset button' type answers and Shackles can be painfully slow when you're trying to get to the mid-game. The tribal matchup is why a lot of CBTop decks went red for Firespout for a while.

[Lord_Cyrus]

My concern was more about if you get behind on the board early (often after your opponent accelerates with Vial), you don't have any 'reset button' type answers and Shackles can be painfully slow when you're trying to get to the mid-game. The tribal matchup is why a lot of CBTop decks went red for Firespout for a while.

Umm... As I recall, that was when Zoo was very dominant and before Batterskull caught on. Supreme Blue style decks were always best in aggro heavy metas. I would try the basic build before you get that desperate to kill creatures.

[DragoFireheart]

I feel like we need more information to determine where the meta is going before tuning this deck. I also have some questions for some of you:

A- UW or UWr or UWb or UWg: Which color combination do you feel is superior? Why? Is it worth trying to go for more than the two base colors (UW)?

B- Now that some of you have tested out the deck, which matchups do you feel are favorable? Which ones are unfavorable? Why?

C- Do you see room for Snapcaster Mage?

[Draener]

A: I feel like a red splash might be profitable, as it gives us access to firespout, grim lavamancer, and pyroblast. These three cards seem like they would go a long way in fixing bad matchups. I think we can safely rule out green, as adding it would open us up to submerge, and merfolk is already a pretty tricky matchup. Black would be interesting for dark confidant and vindicate, but I don't think they really help out too much in our bad matchups.

B: Favorable: Storm, Bant, other control
Unfavorable: Fast zoo, merfolk, maverick
Neutral: Team America, Dredge (Sideboard dependent)

C: I would love to fit in Snapcaster mage, but the problem is that I have no idea what he would replace. I am starting to think that we should remove a couple of tops and counterbalances and reserve that plan for the late game. This way we could limit the number of dead draws, as drawing top or balance when you're already behind is very hard to comeback from in a lot of match-ups.

[DragoFireheart]

A: I feel like a red splash might be profitable, as it gives us access to firespout, grim lavamancer, and pyroblast. These three cards seem like they would go a long way in fixing bad matchups. I think we can safely rule out green, as adding it would open us up to submerge, and merfolk is already a pretty tricky matchup. Black would be interesting for dark confidant and vindicate, but I don't think they really help out too much in our bad matchups.

- I agree with this. Adding colors other than red doesn't seem to help us greatly.



B: Favorable: Storm, Bant, other control
Unfavorable: Fast zoo, merfolk, maverick
Neutral: Team America, Dredge (Sideboard dependent)

- I'm a little surprised that merfolk is what you would consider a bad matchup. If you are running a list with SFM and Vedalken Shackles, I don't see wht that is an issue. If anything, Merfolk should be neutral.



C: I would love to fit in Snapcaster mage, but the problem is that I have no idea what he would replace. I am starting to think that we should remove a couple of tops and counterbalances and reserve that plan for the late game. This way we could limit the number of dead draws, as drawing top or balance when you're already behind is very hard to comeback from in a lot of match-ups.

- What would you remove the Top and CB for?

[Lemnear]

Reejerey untaps the shackles giving them back their lord and maybe even pridemage celebrates a comeback. Moreover punish the shackles every non-Island-Land in your Deck. Would prefer firespout or even wrath over shackles atm

On Snapcaster: While it doubles played swords it doesn't let you draw more. 1UW is not THAT impressive for a sword either. Sword is the Best card SCM can target and aside from the body, you can play oblivion Ring or dismember instead doing the same (3cc is important too) without the need to draw pieces in the right order

[Draener]

Merfolk seems like it swings both ways, as in they either blow you out or you blow them out. If you can land a protected stoneforge turn 2, then you probably are going to win, otherwise I found it was nearly impossible to keep up. Either that or the muligan down into oblivion because merfolk plays a worse manabase than my 4 color inistraad sealed deck.

To be fair, I was not playing red or sideboarding, and I think this could go a long way to improving the matchup. I found shackles to often be too slow, especially if I'm forced to run out a nonbasic to cast it. They always seem to have that wasteland exactly when they need it.

The one card I found to be the absolute nuts against merfolk is ensnaring bridge. Most decks only run a few answers to it in the board, and almost never board it in against you G2 (Previous experience with counterbalance, not this particular deck). It might be worth looking into.

Here is the list I am thinking about running:

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Counterbalance
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind-Sculptor
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Into the Roils
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Daze
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
4 Island
1 Plains
3 Volcanic Island

[unicoerner]

Would a crucible wasteland lock be an option in a UW build?

[DragoFireheart]

Reejerey untaps the shackles giving them back their lord and maybe even pridemage celebrates a comeback. Moreover punish the shackles every non-Island-Land in your Deck. Would prefer firespout or even wrath over shackles atm


- Wrath seems a tad bit too slow since they have many counters to stop non-creature spells. Firespout and Batterskull seems amazing for dealing with hordes of creatures, but my gripe is Firespout kills our SFM. Thoughts?

[Draener]

I don't think firespout hitting mystic should be a problem, since if you have a mystic out you are probably winning, and if not firespout away. Also firespouting while .having batterskull out is well worth losing your mystic, unless of course they're already 40/40s.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't think firespout hitting mystic should be a problem, since if you have a mystic out you are probably winning, and if not firespout away. Also firespouting while .having batterskull out is well worth losing your mystic, unless of course they're already 40/40s.

- Well, if I were to make a list designed to handle a aggro heavy meta (Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo) then I might go this route:

4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
3 Firespout
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


- I have the Vendilions to maintain my blue count at 21. I could go nuts and throw in shackles or ensnaring bridge or something, but I feel that Vendilions are a nice choice as they can avoid the spouts and provide me some additional disruption.

My sideboard would have stuff like shackles, grim, REB/Pyroblast, and other good stuff. Thoughts?

[Draener]

- Well, if I were to make a list designed to handle a aggro heavy meta (Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo) then I might go this route:

4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
3 Firespout
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


- I have the Vendilions to maintain my blue count at 21. I could go nuts and throw in shackles or ensnaring bridge or something, but I feel that Vendilions are a nice choice as they can avoid the spouts and provide me some additional disruption.

My sideboard would have stuff like shackles, grim, REB/Pyroblast, and other good stuff. Thoughts?

I think game 1 will still be rough with merfolk, but with the cards you suggest after board should definately give you a good shot of winning g2 and 3. Control will be rough, but once again REB goes a long way in solving that issue. Plus, I'm not sure how common control will be in this new format.

You will also want some number of spell pierce out of the board. That card does so much of what you want.

[DragoFireheart]

I think game 1 will still be rough with merfolk, but with the cards you suggest after board should definately give you a good shot of winning g2 and 3. Control will be rough, but once again REB goes a long way in solving that issue. Plus, I'm not sure how common control will be in this new format.

You will also want some number of spell pierce out of the board. That card does so much of what you want.

How about this for a sideboard?

3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Spell Pierce
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Vedalken Shackles


- I can bring in Grims, shackles, and SoFI for goblins/merfolk matchups. SP and REB can be brought in for Show and Tell decks.

[Draener]

Like it, but no yard hate? I mean it's completely acceptable to hope to avoid the matchup, since it's generally not that popular.

[DragoFireheart]

Like it, but no yard hate? I mean it's completely acceptable to hope to avoid the matchup, since it's generally not that popular.

The lack of yard hate is an issue. I'm not really sure what to bring in since Dredge can play around yard hate easily.

[Malakai]

I'm intriqued by this build. But I only count 59 cards?
The missing card is 1 Arid Mesa.


Would a crucible wasteland lock be an option in a UW build?
I'm not too sure what the point of this would be. Against all of the fast/midrange decks, you'd rather just be locking them out with Counterbalance, and beating with a Batterskull. Against the slower decks it's not going to do much to stop their planeswalkers, which are generally the only cards you care about from them. The deck already has enough slow engines.


C- Do you see room for Snapcaster Mage?
-2 Jace, the Mind-Sculptor
+2 Snapcaster Mage
The primary reason I ran Jaces was to fight off other Jaces; Snapcaster does this while a) upping the 2cc count, b) being way better against fast aggro, and c) generally being more versatile. Yes, there will be times when you wish you had a Jace, but we can't get stuck in the trap of wanting to have everything, because then you end up with nothing. [Sidenote: if people actually want to discuss a CounterTop list that _does_ look to answer everything, I have some ideas that have done well in the past--but that's not this thread.]

---------------------

I have noticed that a lot of people's concerns can be addressed quite easily with cards from the sideboard. I've also noticed that most of the sideboards you guys have been posting seem to be built without an eye towards what comes out. You can't just throw a bunch of cards in there and hope that things will work out. You really need to maximize that space in the same way you might maximize the maindeck. Decks are 75 cards.

Anyway, here's my sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt -- Reanimator, Dredge
2 Relic of Progenitus -- Reanimator, Dredge
2 Red Elemental Blast -- Control, Merfolk, Combo
2 Spell Pierce -- Combo, Hive Mind, Natural Order.dec
2 Path to Exile -- Aggro
1 Sword of Fire and Ice -- Merfolk, Goblins, Control
2 Jace, the Mind-Sculptor -- Control
2 Vendillion Clique -- Control, Combo

The one thing I'm still trying to work out is how much removal to keep in against other Blade "Control" decks.

[Draener]

I usually found 2 removal with no external use to be good in stoneforge mirrors. Generally you will just be using your removal to generate mana advantage. If I had bolts in the deck, I would leave those in to hit stoneforges/jaces/dome.

[DragoFireheart]

Would Ensnaring Bridge be worth trying in this deck? Granted, it stops our Batterskull but it utterly screws over merfolk and show-n-tell?

[Draener]

Ensnaring bridge has always been good to me in balance lists. It ends merfolk, SNT, and is also a good out to knight decks. I would recommend testing it. Works best with a couple of Jaces to win behind.

[Malakai]

Keep in mind this is a thread about CounterTop with Stoneforge Mystic. Ensnaring Bridge seems terrible when that's your main plan.

[DragoFireheart]

Keep in mind this is a thread about CounterTop with Stoneforge Mystic. Ensnaring Bridge seems terrible when that's your main plan.

- Well, I can't think of any new ideas at the moment. I feel like we need more outs to GSZ, Vial, and SnT since they are the problem matchups.

[ivanpei]

I think if you insist on playing stoneforge and countertop in the same deck, you need to trim other mana intensive cards for flexible ones to make up for how slow the deck sets up. Conditional counters and more grims is the approach I'd take. If playing grims, I won't bother with snapcaster at all as you are sharing a graveyard and Snapcaster is pretty much a 3 drop which is heavy on the curve.

[DragoFireheart]

I think is you insist on playing stoneforge and countertop in the same deck, you need to trim other mana intensive cards for flexible ones to make up for how slow the deck sets up. Conditional counters and more grims is the approach I'd take. If playing grims, I won't bother with snapcaster at all as you are sharing a graveyard and Snapcaster is pretty much a 3 drop which is heavy on the curve.

- Should the JTMS be dropped? I agree about the grims but I'd like some suggestions on what should come out.

How about this?

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


The count for 2cmc and 3cmc is pretty low though. What can we put in to get that 2cmc count up higher? Also, I still feel like the Grims should be Firespouts: it ups the 3cmc slots and gives us another out against mass swarms. Between swords, firespout, and SFM-BS, it would be enough pre-board to help fight Zoo, Merfolk, and Goblins. I feel like the grims should sit in the board.

[ivanpei]

I think jace should stay, at least as a 2-off. Card is just too good. I think since you are running counterspell, spell pierce might be unnecessary. Either that or snare can be trimmed. I like playing 9 counters in countertop decks. Usually it's: 4 force, 3 snare, 2 cspell/pierce (this depends on number of 2cc cards to fit cbalance).

[DragoFireheart]

It's always late at night before I go to bed/lying in bed where new ideas come to mind. Does this happen to anyone else?

Anyways, I thought of a U/W/B list that could lead to something good:

Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea

Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil


Sideboard
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Duress
4 Spell Pierce
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Surgical Extraction


The Lim-Dul's Vault is a peculiar card that for the longest time I have tried to find a home for. It does a few things for this deck:

- Pitch to FoW.
- Re-arrange the top 5 cards of our choosing from groups of 5 to set up an effective counterbalance.
- Find us a card we need, be it a top/Cb we need or removal or what have you.
- Act like a pseudo counterspell when we have a counterbalance out.

[jhhdk]

Keep in mind this is a thread about CounterTop with Stoneforge Mystic. Ensnaring Bridge seems terrible when that's your main plan.

Maybe Ensnaring Bridge's small cousin meekstone would have less dissynergy.

Both Mystic and batterskull dodges effect.

EDIT: BTW like Lim-Dûll's Vault suggestion.

[Malakai]

I would much rather cast Ancestral Visions than LDV, and I don't want to cast Ancestral Visions. It just seems like LDV is going to be worse than just playing a business spell. Or Ponder.

If you are going to run LDV, drop the Counterspell and just make sure you have cmc 0 through 5 covered.

[Draener]

Don't run Lim-dul's vault. It costs too much mana and kills yourself. It costs 3 mana and a brainstorm if you want to tutor up a counterspell, plus how many life, and if you have the luxury of leaving two mana open, you are probably doing alright without it. If you want this type of effect, run enlightened tutor. It is everything that you wish ldv could be, but cheaper and doesn't cost you life.

This is from actual testing with ldv in previous counter-balance lists when the format was slower and life loss was LESS important.

[DragoFireheart]

I need someone to play test this deck concept. Any takers? I would do it myself but I can't seem to get an opportunity to do so.

[obituary 95]

I need someone to play test this deck concept. Any takers? I would do it myself but I can't seem to get an opportunity to do so.

I will give it a go latter today. i am actually pretty intrested in what this deck can do. I will report back latter tonight.

liliana is a very intresting card but a lot of the time she did not do anything, well that is unless you count being a three mana removal spell at sorcery speed. that made the mana a lot harder and made you use fetch lands when it was suboptimal. Also the card made you get duals a lot of the time. so all in all the card might as well be dismember

lim-dual is also a card that was really unimpressive. most the time I would rather crack a fetch land to see new cards rather than paying the two mana nessasary to initiate the spell. also you need more things to do in your sfm package. two batterskulls are overkill. I would replace one of them with a sword or something. I am also not sold on the idea of playing counterspell beacuse the card is so slow, and it is sort of clunky.

[Malakai]

I would never be happy about cutting Counterspell. The card does a number of things:
1. Costs 2 for Counterbalance
2. Is blue for Force of Will
3. Is relevant early.
4. Stops late-game Hail Mary's, e.g. Natural Order, Elspeth, Jace.

Having the card in your deck just allows you to many more lines of play than you would have without it. Case in point: I don't lose to Hive Mind.

[DragoFireheart]

I would never be happy about cutting Counterspell. The card does a number of things:
1. Costs 2 for Counterbalance
2. Is blue for Force of Will
3. Is relevant early.
4. Stops late-game Hail Mary's, e.g. Natural Order, Elspeth, Jace.

Having the card in your deck just allows you to many more lines of play than you would have without it. Case in point: I don't lose to Hive Mind.

- Pretty much this. Two Counterspells is the perfect amount for late game answer to bombs that CBT can't hit.

Anyways, I've come close to an optimized list. I need to test Snappys before I decide on a final list though.

[Dalapin]

I just thought I would post the list I used in Nashville. I also posted this list in the Countertop thread, but I figured it's much closer to this thread in design. Also I gave my thoughts on the cards in this deck in the report I link to at the bottom. All feedback and questions are thoroughly welcomed. :-)

4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility

4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry

4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor

5 Islands
2 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Ancient Den
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Path to Exile
1 Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Counterbalance
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of the Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22337-First-Legacy-Event-SCG-Nashville-Report-U-W-Enlightened-Tutor-Control

[DragoFireheart]

I posted my thoughts on your deck in your thread.

[Malakai]

If you're cutting Tops you are doing it wrong.

[rchinnock]

4 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine/body and mind
4 snapcaster mage
4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
4 brainstorm
1 ponder
1 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
3 jace, the mindsculptor

4 tundra
4 misty rainforest
4 flooded strand
4 island
1 plains
4 mishra's factory/wasteland (I personally use factories, but both are clearly good)


The idea behind this list is simple. You want your stoneforges and counterbalance, but you also obviously want your snapcaster mages. How to cram it all in? I'm not sure it can all really fit, but if it can, I think it might be pretty awesome. One thing that would be wonderful in a list like this is V-Clique, but I couldn't fit it. Maybe take out the ponder and the counterspell for 2 V-Clique's, or one of them for a miser? Maybe take out a Jace and a land for 2 V-Clique's? Any ideas? I think the basic body of the deck should work well, and that it has a lot of powerful tools that are good in the current meta. Whether it is better than traditional counterbalance with Goyf, on the one hand, or UW/Esper-Blade on the other, however, I'm not sure.