[Deck] USAF (U/r/w Tempo)

[Kich867]

I posted the idea for this deck awhile ago with mixed reviews titled American Tempo, a lot was discussed, the original deck-list wasn't very good, and it wasn't much of a tempo deck.

As I now have some money again and can actually take legacy seriously, I'm revisiting my idea and am willing to really see it through.

USAF is a U/r/w tempo deck that attacks the mana base of the opponent and wins with very tech-y creatures. I have some issues with the current list that I'll bring up after the deck list for discussion.


//Creatures:
3x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Vendilion Clique

//Spells:
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Swords to Plowshares

//Artifacts:
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

//Lands:
4x Flooded Strand
2x Scalding Tarn
3x Tundra
3x Volcanic Island
2x Plateau
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Wasteland

//Sideboard:
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
2x Wrath of God
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Pithing Needle
4x Submerge


My main concerns for the deck are:

1. 21 Lands- I'm not convinced 21 lands is optimal, I'd prefer to run 22 or 23 but can't think of what to cut.

2. Bolt and StP conflict- It's possible that I should remove one, but I don't particularly know which or if I care that they conflict. I'm not going to run Paths since conflicting with wasteland is a -way- bigger deal, so that's not happening, but I also don't know if I actually care that much that they conflict. In general Bolt is just removal, and in the event that I can point it at their dome, I'm conceding that StP will give my opponent health no matter what. It's going to be in the deck, so they'll be gaining whatever health they will anyways, Bolt helps me tear that amplified health pool down faster.

3. Batterskull / Jitte- I'm not 100% on the package, I think Batterskull is most likely always going to be target #1 unless it's already in my hand, I just don't really know about the Jitte. I feel that it might be better to run something else, Feast and Famine wouldn't be a terrible idea at all as that gives me a lot of defense against the nastiest creatures in the format, but Fire and Ice adds a lot of extra damage and card advantage per hit. But Jitte is pretty amazing, so it might be the clear winner just from being absurdly good and flexible. Sword of Feast and Famine feels like a solid slot in the sideboard as it's more situational.

4. Brainstorm- Brainstorm is the only card draw / filter effect. This feels odd given how much of the deck is blue, but the slots are very, very thin and I can't really add any more in without taking something more important away. The blue in the deck is mostly tempo oriented cards, it's not looking to control the game, just be able to find some clutch cards when the time arises.

-----

The introduction of snapcaster mage really made this deck shine for me. Being able to recur, for 3 mana, Stifle - Lightning Bolt - Brainstorm - Swords to Plowshares is pretty huge. He carries equipment and is playable at instant speed while producing an awesome effect.

Grim Lavamancer is just a total boss. I'm fairly tempted to drop a Submerge in the board for a Basilisk Collar, as being able to ping things to death would be pretty intense removal.

Stoneforge Mystic, some might say is too slow for a tempo deck, but when batterskull hits that's a 4 turn clock. Jotun Grunt and Steppe Lynx are fairly conditional, Grunt won't be around to finish the job and they both would require me to run a much worse mana base with waaaay more fetches. Figure of Destiny didn't feel right in the deck at all, it requires too much commitment of your mana eot and that's just not possible, not with everything the deck is capable of at instant speed.

Clique provides something that I feel the deck really needs, some hand disruption. On top of being a flash flying 3/1, after early disruption on their mana base, a turn 3 clique can set them back pretty hard.

The counters were chosen based on most tempo lists I see run. The removal is the best options from what colors are available for what the deck does. Brainstorm is the only card drawing / filtering effect which as I mentioned could be a problem, but it hasn't been that huge of an issue so far, the deck's cards aim for quality over quantity for sure.

I don't really have the most consistent meta (which is unfortunate, since if it was it'd be very diverse with MUC / Reanimator / Elves / Dredge / BUG Landstill / Affinity / NO RUG / Rock / Merfolk / some jank ass stuff), so I'll be looking towards the online magic simulators to get a lot more testing in.

For now though, I'd love general input and ideas about the issues with the deck that I brought up.

[Final Fortune]

Have you found Snap Caster and the mana denial package, post MM ban, to be holding its weight compared to the Spellstutter Sprite, Mutavault and Jace the Mind Sculptor that Patriot uses? I get the feeling that without MM, if the opponent slips thru' your early game disruption you are going to be scrambling to deal with threats or pull ahead with a lot of conditional, ineffective cards in the mid game and no bombs to "Oops, I win"

Edit: Also I think you should give Sword of Body and Mind some thought, it's probably the best "all around" sword in the MD.

[TkDodo]

I posted the idea for this deck awhile ago with mixed reviews titled American Tempo, a lot was discussed, the original deck-list wasn't very good, and it wasn't much of a tempo deck.

As I now have some money again and can actually take legacy seriously, I'm revisiting my idea and am willing to really see it through.

USAF is a U/r/w tempo deck that attacks the mana base of the opponent and wins with very tech-y creatures. I have some issues with the current list that I'll bring up after the deck list for discussion.


//Creatures:
3x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Vendilion Clique

//Spells:
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Swords to Plowshares

//Artifacts:
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

//Lands:
4x Flooded Strand
2x Scalding Tarn
3x Tundra
3x Volcanic Island
2x Plateau
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Wasteland

//Sideboard:
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
2x Wrath of God
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Pithing Needle
4x Submerge



The main issue I see with this deck is the lack of efficient beaters. I play a similiar deck, but not as a tempo version, more like a control version with Spell Snares, Spell Pierces and Jaces, so I don't have to win fast. What makes Team America such a good tempo deck is the combination of disruption and a fast clock. Goyf/Stalker are so undercosted and so easy to cast for them, all while they are disrupting the oppoents mana bases with Stifle/Wasteland and their hands with Thoughtseize/Hymn.

Snapcaster Mage is really good, especially with Stifle and Bolt/Swords, but I honestly can't see this color combination going the tempo route. You deny their mana, ok. Then you have Daze and FoW as hardcounters, which is fine. And then you want to win fast with mostly ground-beaters with power 2 or less. Of course, you still have SFM, but he's not fast either. It looks like the deck should do pretty well against aggro with all the removal, but you don't have a lot to fight combo and are probably not fast enough to win before a control deck takes control.

I think some form of aggro-control, like Patriot, fits these colors better, but if you want to keep the tempo style, have you tried Delver of Secrets?

Btw, have you had problems with Snapcater and Lavamancer in the same deck?

[Kich867]

The main issue I see with this deck is the lack of efficient beaters. I play a similiar deck, but not as a tempo version, more like a control version with Spell Snares, Spell Pierces and Jaces, so I don't have to win fast. What makes Team America such a good tempo deck is the combination of disruption and a fast clock. Goyf/Stalker are so undercosted and so easy to cast for them, all while they are disrupting the oppoents mana bases with Stifle/Wasteland and their hands with Thoughtseize/Hymn.

Snapcaster Mage is really good, especially with Stifle and Bolt/Swords, but I honestly can't see this color combination going the tempo route. You deny their mana, ok. Then you have Daze and FoW as hardcounters, which is fine. And then you want to win fast with mostly ground-beaters with power 2 or less. Of course, you still have SFM, but he's not fast either. It looks like the deck should do pretty well against aggro with all the removal, but you don't have a lot to fight combo and are probably not fast enough to win before a control deck takes control.

I think some form of aggro-control, like Patriot, fits these colors better, but if you want to keep the tempo style, have you tried Delver of Secrets?

Btw, have you had problems with Snapcater and Lavamancer in the same deck?

I actually recently dropped blue out of the deck, I'm still deciding which version I liked better, B/w/r feels way, way stronger though, especially given the points you made.

Grim Lavamancer + Snapcaster Mage has actually not once caused an issue, there's enough random bs in there to pitch to mancer that I don't need it, and I typically don't ping unless it'll kill something or I'm trying to pile on as much damage as possible.

The issues you brought up were precisely why I dropped blue--it didn't help vs control, the deck dominated aggro, but control and combo wrecked it. The black actually boosts it's matchup VS aggro, and nearly dominates the control matchup with discard / vindicate.

Switching black with blue also opened me up to EE, which has been performing extremely well.

I miss Snapcaster Mage a lot though, that card is insanely good in this sort of deck, but Bob provides better card advantage which was something the deck desperately needed.

I just posted that list recently. This deck has performed well, but you are correct, it plays more like mid-range control. I played a nearly hour long game VS StoneBlade only to get Jace'd out because I have no answer to him if my board gets wiped. I burnt over 3 stifles and 3 wastes on his fetches / duals and it wasn't enough to take over without a cheap big beater.

So far, as I mentioned, I'm liking the black version better. It just feels like it has a better plan.

[Malakai]

Originally I was going to post this on the Patriot thread. I still might. Basically, all I ever found with that deck was that I wanted more beaters. Grim Lavamancer is stupid good when you're beating people down. As such, here's a list--it isn't very refined, but it's a place to start.

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Mother of Runes
3 Vendillion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plateau
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

So the numbers look weird, and that is primarily an effect of the list not being well-tested. The basic mantra is that we want to be more like Zoo and Merfolk than Thresh and Team America.

[Kich867]

Originally I was going to post this on the Patriot thread. I still might. Basically, all I ever found with that deck was that I wanted more beaters. Grim Lavamancer is stupid good when you're beating people down. As such, here's a list--it isn't very refined, but it's a place to start.

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Mother of Runes
3 Vendillion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plateau
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

So the numbers look weird, and that is primarily an effect of the list not being well-tested. The basic mantra is that we want to be more like Zoo and Merfolk than Thresh and Team America.

I like the list, some things to think about though, if we want to be more somewhere between Zoo and Merfolk, perhaps putting Delver of Secrets in and toning down the counters for more tempo counters / removal may be warranted.

I like that you removed Stifle, while the card is amazingly useful, it's disruption in the deck is less than stellar since the kill is still slower and it can't drop a beater that will win in a few turns.

I'm thinking something like:
- 3x Mom
- 1x Clique
- 3x Spell Snare

+ 1x Bolt / Swords / Daze
+ 4x Delver of Secrets

This gives 20 instants to flip Delver and with Brainstorm you can set that up fairly easily. From personal experience, a 1 mana 3/2 flier is pretty amazing. It's very little investment, it beats hard, and it has evasion. Furthermore, it puts a strain on the opponent's removal, since the closest thing we have to a beater that hard is either A: an equipped dude which is a lot of time / mana, B: batterskull, which is a lot of time / mana. Delver is inexpensive to play and beats like a champ. Mom protects your other things for sure, but she doesn't really beat herself and I'm not comfortable relying 100% on equipment.

[Esper3k]

I would be concerned about having StP in a deck without any large beaters, unlike New Horizons (even then, I don't really like StP there).

[Kich867]

I would be concerned about having StP in a deck without any large beaters, unlike New Horizons (even then, I don't really like StP there).

This has been my concern as well--I'm wondering if Wasteland just isn't worth it and running PtE instead.

In particular, I don't like the idea of running bolt and swords in the same deck, nor do I like the idea of running PTE and wastes in the same deck, one of those two has to go, and if we're looking to win faster, wasteland is a long term plan, perhaps dropping it and aiming for the early-mid game rather than mid-late game is necessary.

Furthermore, running a low-economy strategy like this, the colorless mana from wasteland is often unwanted.

We could drop the 4 wastelands for 2 basics / duals and 2 Mirran Crusader's, since Crusader with Jitte is GG in 2 turns..

[Malakai]

The reason I included Mother of Runes was that I wanted to be dropping a "beatdown enabler" on turn 1, i.e. either Mom or Grim Lavamancer. These cards give people fits. I can see Delver being really good, but this point I am just not convinced by the card. I want to be using my Brainstorms as Brainstorms, not as a way to make my terrible creature into a good one.

Spell Snare is just too sick right now not to play imo.

That all said, I definitely want a couple more beaters; the difficulty is figuring out what they are. Delver is on the right track in that we need a creature that can attack them without help, either through being kind of big or having evasion.

[Malakai]

This has been my concern as well--I'm wondering if Wasteland just isn't worth it and running PtE instead.

In particular, I don't like the idea of running bolt and swords in the same deck, nor do I like the idea of running PTE and wastes in the same deck, one of those two has to go, and if we're looking to win faster, wasteland is a long term plan, perhaps dropping it and aiming for the early-mid game rather than mid-late game is necessary.

Furthermore, running a low-economy strategy like this, the colorless mana from wasteland is often unwanted.


This is ridiculous. Wasteland is not and never has been a "long term plan." Furthermore, "I don't want to Healing Salve my opponent" is not a sufficient reason to not run what is easily one of the most powerful cards in Legacy.

There's nothing wrong with having Bolt and Swords in the same deck. Lightning Bolt is not Lava Spike. It is there to kill creatures. Sometimes it will kill planeswalkers, and sometimes it will finish off a player. Sure, you could easily just have 4 StP and add the fourth Spell Snare, or run Spell Pierce, or even Preordain. You have a lot of options.

[Kich867]

This is ridiculous. Wasteland is not and never has been a "long term plan." Furthermore, "I don't want to Healing Salve my opponent" is not a sufficient reason to not run what is easily one of the most powerful cards in Legacy.

There's nothing wrong with having Bolt and Swords in the same deck. Lightning Bolt is not Lava Spike. It is there to kill creatures. Sometimes it will kill planeswalkers, and sometimes it will finish off a player. Sure, you could easily just have 4 StP and add the fourth Spell Snare, or run Spell Pierce, or even Preordain. You have a lot of options.

By long term plan I'm referring to the idea that you don't capitalize on wasteland until later turns. You invest into wasteland because it hurts them over a period of time and you plan around it not hurting your progression as well. But no matter what, Wasteland hurts you just as bad in that turn, you both lost a land, if wasteland was a fetch or a dual you could play something with that that you couldn't with wasteland, and you lose wasteland.

It's actual effect is a long term one that can span turns, rather than a single moment in any given turn. If they need green and you blow up their tropical island and they only have 2 volcanic islands out or something, they need to wait until they get green to continue, or they may just not draw another land for awhile. I've certainly seen a wasteland or two lock someone out of a color until the game is over.

Feel free to disagree with me on that, but anyways, my real point was that, the deck could potentially not run wasteland and aim to win quicker, not losing any mana to wasteland, and freeing up slots for more beaters and a more consistent mana base <-- that's all I'm saying. I don't think it's a particularly valid idea anymore however.

[Kich867]

This is what I'm leaning more towards. Stoneforge mystic is too slow, as is clique, for a tempo deck. I also find Lavamancer to not be quite as fast and limits your options. The lists I posted previously I feel is more of a list caught between trying to be a control deck and a tempo deck, and what results is a deck that interrupts someone's early game but takes too long to finish them off and lacks the power to take the late game frequently.

So with my experience playing U/R delver, this is a tempo list influenced by it a little bit:

//Creatures: 12
4x Goblin Guide
4x Jotun Grunt
4x Delver of Secrets

//Spells: 28
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Fire//Ice
2x Spell Pierce

//Lands: 20
4x Wasteland
4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
2x Volcanic Island
3x Tundra
2x Plateau

I'm not sure what the sideboard would be just yet but this is what I'm thinking for the main deck. The Goblin Guide -could- hurt the plan, but I've been playing with them a lot recently and quite frankly, they're too good to not run. I like the information I get from them--people have to get really, really lucky to benefit more than I am from them. And I'll take that risk to run both them and Jotun Grunt together.

The flex spots for me are obviously the Spell Pierce's and Fire/Ice's. I couldn't really think offhand what else to put in there. Fire can handily 2 for 1 or kill something small + hit the opponent, ice can function as a means to keep them off a land while replacing itself which on paper sounds pretty sick, that one turn of keeping them off a color could be game changing and replacing itself is just fantastic. Pierce is just a generally useful card, so I don't see a problem running two.

I was also thinking of Lava Blister--for one, I think it's an absolute sleeper. Worst case scenario it's a red more flexible sinkhole, best case scenario you fit 2 lightning bolts in one card which is.. also.. more flexible to cast, not needing double red in either situation. Interestingly enough, you could flip those: the best case scenario could be it's a fricken red sinkhole that's easier to cast.

Any suggestions for that 4 card slot would be wonderful.

[The Enemy Wizard]

So i have been testing this deck quite a bit lately, and i have decided that it is quite strong. My list is slightly different then others and i am open to suggestions (especially in the sideboard). Also, stifle is a bad card and i refuse to run 4 of them.

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 lightning bolt
3 force of will
2 path to exile
2 swords to plowshares
3 spell snare
2 stifle
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
(22land)
4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
1 island
1 mtn
1 plains
4 tundra
4 volc
3 tundra
4 wasteland

Sideboard
4 surgical extraction
2 submerge
2 spell pierce
3 pyroblast
1 force of will
2 disenchant
1 elspeth, knight errant

Suggestions appreciated! Also Geist is a house with 8 removal spells + counterspells. fool hits like a truck

[Kich867]

That list looks very confused, between whether you want to be a control deck or a tempo deck. There is a WUR control deck called Patriot that you may want to look into.

Stifle is an exceptionally flexible and useful card at every stage of the game. It helps hose storm combo by stifling storm, it can nullify SFM, it kills lands, hits knight, planeswalker abilities.. It's pretty good.

But this deck is looking to abuse white's superior removal and utility over green's Tarmogoyf--as Goyf is really the only thing that RUG tempo gets from Green. Conveniently, Grunt serves as a means to shrink Goyf and Knight of the Reliquary which is pretty damn useful.

Snapcaster Mage was a consideration, but I'd rather draw a burn or a creature over him so he didn't make the cut. This deck should never make it to the lategame, it should win early as possible.

Geist is interesting though, at 3 mana I'm not sure if he's worth it though.

[The Enemy Wizard]

What i like about this deck is that it has the ability to play out both tempo and control. If i wanted to make it a more tempo oriented deck, i would just drop white altogether and go with a U/R delver build. I honestly do think the deck can pull off both strategies well, However, much testing still needs to be done.

[Octopusman]

I've been playing lists like this forever. Without a draw engine, it's often hard to keep them disrupted long enough to win, I've found.

What happened to the Patriot thread? Can't find it now.

[Kich867]

I've been playing lists like this forever. Without a draw engine, it's often hard to keep them disrupted long enough to win, I've found.

What happened to the Patriot thread? Can't find it now.

The patriot thread is in the established decks section. If you could post your list that'd be wonderful, I'm curious as to why you can't win quickly enough. If Stoneforge Mystic is in there, that may be one reason, she's quite slow.

[Octopusman]

The patriot thread is in the established decks section. If you could post your list that'd be wonderful, I'm curious as to why you can't win quickly enough. If Stoneforge Mystic is in there, that may be one reason, she's quite slow.

I don't run Clique or Delver and I usually run Stoneforge Mystic although due to all the Stifle recently it's been a Squire constantly.
What else is there? Mirran Crusader or Serra Avenger? I doubt it but I've tested both and would do so again.

My equip package is Sword of Body and Mind and Jitte. SoBM is fantastic overall in my opinion (increasing threats, faster clock, relevant evasion).

Jace2's ultimate is too slow still. I feel like when I'm trying to use Jace2 that I'm trying to wrap up the game with creatures over too many turns and barely brainstorming into spells I need to interact with the opponent to keep them from recovering. It's a difficult balancing act that is hopefully improved post board.

[Octopusman]

Although I don't know how I missed The Enemy Wizard's post.

I'm interested in some Geist of Saint Traft + Mother of Runes action... That sounds hot. [edit] Just picked some up. There's a Foil Korean one for $300 :O

[Kich867]

I don't run Clique or Delver and I usually run Stoneforge Mystic although due to all the Stifle recently it's been a Squire constantly.
What else is there? Mirran Crusader or Serra Avenger? I doubt it but I've tested both and would do so again.

My equip package is Sword of Body and Mind and Jitte. SoBM is fantastic overall in my opinion (increasing threats, faster clock, relevant evasion).

Jace2's ultimate is too slow still. I feel like when I'm trying to use Jace2 that I'm trying to wrap up the game with creatures over too many turns and barely brainstorming into spells I need to interact with the opponent to keep them from recovering. It's a difficult balancing act that is hopefully improved post board.

Like I mentioned earlier, the deck doesn't operate at Jace 2.0 speed, jace needs 4 mana and 7 turns uninterrupted to go off--we're looking to win quickly.

For this deck, if the creature costs 3 or more, it shouldn't be played. Stoneforge is too slow--it itself doesn't do anything. It fetches batterskull, then drops it the next turn, the batterskull swings. That's turn 4 at best, by then I'm hoping to have them in burn range, so batterskull is pretty useless.

Right now the creature package feels solid, Jitte and things like it still pose problems however. Spell Snare's may be in order.

If you refer to my list:
-2 Fire/Ice
-2 Spell Pierce
+2 Chain Lightning
+2 Spell Snare

For the moment that would be my list. In testing against aggro decks it felt like the matchup wasn't terrible, it sometimes hurt to have a creature removed as I'd often be without a beater and lose if I just didn't see anymore, but I'm not sure how frequently that'll happen. We'll see.

So far the best play I've had has been fetching for volcanic island, delver. Turn 2, grunt / guide + stifle.

The biggest questions I've had with the deck were...how devoted should I be to looking for Stifle hits? If I go first with a delver and a stifle, should I drop the delver and potentially miss a stifle? My gut says yes, and look for stifle opportunities when I've got board presence.

[yutang]

There were three UWr lists in the Top8 of the most recent Jupiter Games February tournament.

Can we develop anything further based upon those lists?