[deck] Why play red with Stuffy Doll..?

[stripezero]

...when Guilty Conscience is an instant game over? I put together a B/W Legacy build to get this blessed combo on the table. Can anyone see a way to improve it?

1. Knock your opponent's hand down to nil with discard.
2. Use Tithe and Lotus to get mana on the table.
3. Keep their creatures in check with Swords.
4. Tutor for the combo if you need to.

Artifacts
2x Lotus Bloom
4x Stuffy Doll

Enchantments
4x Guilty Conscience

Land
4x Scrubland
3x Plains
1x Swamp
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Marsh Flats
4x Orzhov Basilica

Spells
4x Enlightened Tutor
2x Vindicate
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Tithe
4x Mana Tithe
4x Duress
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Dark Ritual

Sideboard
3x Library of Leng
3x Meekstone
3x Warmth
3x Aura of Silence
3x Argivian Find

I don't see how you can make an argument for a better Stuffy Doll build..? Why would you waste time throwing Shivan Meteor at it or waiting for Pariah to win the game for you?

[kusumoto]

Also, you might get more attention in the casual forum.



edit: derp

[stripezero]

Stuffy does one damage to opponent. GC in turn deals one damage to Stuffy. Stuffy then deals one damage to opponent. GC deals one to Stuffy. This goes on until there is no longer any opponent to target, because you kill them.

I don't see why this has to be shuffled to "casual" ..?

[Esper3k]

Unless I am missing something that is not an instant win at all.

Guilty Conscience would only cause his ability to ping himself to do 2 damage instead of one.

Also, you might get more attention in the casual forum.

No, it's an infinite damage kill:

Stuffy Doll pings itself, its own triggered ability pings the opponent, then Guilty Conscience triggers. GC trigger resolves, pinging the Stuffy Doll, triggering its triggered ability and now you have a loop.

[sillyandrew]

discard will help protect your combo, but you might want to look into using silence and orim's chant to protect your combo as well. i'm not saying you'll want to save your combo to drop it all in one turn, but if you're holding a silence/chant with a guilty conscience after you've resolved a stuffy doll, you're probably going to win. you'd probably just want to run the sceptor/chant combo in this case too, for good measure.

the deck probably wants lotus petal too.

[Richard Cheese]

Why black over blue? You could build a similar manabase to Hive Mind, and have the option of dropping Doll via SnT/Sol lands, with some counter backup.

Sideboard needs a lot of work.

[Esper3k]

Maybe steal some Standard tech and play Spellskite since Path and StP would be really bad for you?

[jhhdk]

Stuffy Doll/Guilty Conscience combo is a hard thing to get to work. It's slow and easily disruptable. You can address each of these weaknesses individually but not at the same time. Therefore I'd be more inclined to play this as a 2nd wincon in a deck with a different plan of attack and dedicate fewer slots to it.

[dsck]

Definitely needs some Spellskites.

[TheG]

Hey i was building this deck too! MonoW combo with Enlightned tutor + StuffyDoll&Guilty .. Protection with Orim&Silence and Fluctuator+CiclyingWhiteSpells to scew the deck...

Thanks to the MM Ban

-- my list --


// Lands
8 [ZEN] Plains (3a)
4 [US] Blasted Landscape
4 [AT] Drifting Meadow
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Mana
3 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Combo
2 [TSP] Stuffy Doll
2 [SC] Guilty Conscience

// Cycle
4 [SC] Noble Templar
4 [SC] Eternal Dragon

4 [ALA] Angelsong
4 [US] Clear
4 [SC] Gilded Light
4 [UL] Radiant's Judgment

// Protection
2 [PS] Orim's Chant

// Engine
4 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
3 [US] Fluctuator

[Lancer]

I've built a good stuffy doll deck with En-Kor's and Guilty Conscience that seemed to work good for me, but I took the deck appart for my Doran, the Siege Tower [EDH deck]


The en-kor idea isnt rocket science but combo's well with stuffy doll (especially if Guilty Conscience is removed from your deck)

[kusumoto]

No, it's an infinite damage kill:

Stuffy Doll pings itself, its own triggered ability pings the opponent, then Guilty Conscience triggers. GC trigger resolves, pinging the Stuffy Doll, triggering its triggered ability and now you have a loop.

I'm so bad at Magic. Well I guess that's a fun combo or something.

[stripezero]

Why black over blue? You could build a similar manabase to Hive Mind, and have the option of dropping Doll via SnT/Sol lands, with some counter backup.

Sideboard needs a lot of work.

lol then why don't you suggest something genius?

what is SnT/Sol lands?


you'd probably just want to run the sceptor/chant combo in this case

i tried it and it was bulky. if you play with silence they respond with swords to plowshares

[...]

So... Spellskite is the only half-decent suggestion so far? An overrated $8 protection card that noobs took from netdecks? We don't need Lotus Petal and we aren't wasting time with En-Kors.

[Destroying Angel]

what is SnT/Sol lands?



Show and Tell / Lands that produce two colorless mana - Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors

[Koby]

So... Spellskite is the only half-decent suggestion so far? An overrated $8 protection card that noobs took from netdecks? We don't need Lotus Petal and we aren't wasting time with En-Kors.

I guess you don't want to protect your combo from several common removal spells:
Dismember
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile

[Richard Cheese]

lol then why don't you suggest something genius?

what is SnT/Sol lands?



i tried it and it was bulky. if you play with silence they respond with swords to plowshares

[...]

So... Spellskite is the only half-decent suggestion so far? An overrated $8 protection card that noobs took from netdecks? We don't need Lotus Petal and we aren't wasting time with En-Kors.

Yeah, being a dick is probably the best way to get people to help you.

[ThoSha]

Hm, several thoughts come to my mind with this combo, but the best call will be:

Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors
Show and Tell
Intuition
Gifts Ungiven
Thopter Foundry
Sword of the Meek
Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Yeah, i dont really see black in this either.

[kusumoto]

lol then why don't you suggest something genius?

what is SnT/Sol lands?



i tried it and it was bulky. if you play with silence they respond with swords to plowshares

[...]

So... Spellskite is the only half-decent suggestion so far? An overrated $8 protection card that noobs took from netdecks? We don't need Lotus Petal and we aren't wasting time with En-Kors.

Maybe you will get the suggestions you desire in the casual forums?

[stripezero]

I guess you don't want to protect your combo from several common removal spells

No it is a good suggestion, I was just looking for something more clever from the big experts than a netdeck staple.

-1 Hymn to Tourach
-2 Mana Tithe
+3 Spellskite

[Esper3k]

How is it a netdeck staple if pretty much no deck in Legacy uses it?

[stripezero]

How is it a netdeck staple if pretty much no deck in Legacy uses it?

300+ T8 decks in four months in other formats, I guess I just see it a lot.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Not trying to hate on you but... your attitude sucks. You ask for help and then put people down when they suggest one of the greatest boons ever for creature-based combo decks?

And then there is the manifest truth that a Stuffy Doll deck isn't competitive in Legacy. Trust me. I tried it a few years back when this was a much slower format. Didn't work then, won't work now. A 6 mana "combo" that can't win on the turn it's played without the help of a 3rd card and loses to the most commonly played removal in the format (path, StP) isn't worth the effort. If you like this style of deck, try cheating Emrakul into play. Now that is worth it.

[(nameless one)]

I tried building a deck with the combo before. I ended up playing Quinn.dec and replaced the combo with Painter's Servant and Grindstone.

[stripezero]

Not trying to hate on you but... your attitude sucks. You ask for help and then put people down when they suggest one of the greatest boons ever for creature-based combo decks?

Did not know that TheSource was such a love-in. I will be cool now I promise. Most forums you have to throw a tantrum to get a couple replies.


If you like this style of deck, try cheating Emrakul into play. Now that is worth it.

My motivation for trying to make Stuffy competitive is mixed. It's a super-Johnny combo that just feels like it should be broken harder. But more importantly ...Emrakul and friends still reek of "new" Magic to me so I was trying to blaze some new ground without Planeswalkers and gimmick creatures.

But it seems like we MUST relegate Stuffy to casual..?

[Lord_Cyrus]

I can understand where you are coming from... but I think you will find that this is a well-maintained forum where idiots and flames aren't tolerated.

I also sympathize with wanting to play strategies that don't revolve around the newest cards in an Eternal format. I started playing in Ice Age, and I have seen the game fundamentally shift many times since then - and not always for the better. Nevertheless, I can't deny that in at least one way the modern game has made a significant improvement. Creatures used to be inherently the weakest card type. This is no longer true for any color, and that is a big positive in my book.

Unfortunately, this means that if we are to play the best creature best decks in Legacy, we will have to play a high proportion of newer creature cards. I'm still getting used to this fact; but it is inescapable.

If you are looking for those "older decks" that have remained more-or-less unchanged, you will have to look to Combo. High Tide uses very few cards that weren't around 10 years ago. Storm combo still relies on Lion's Eye Diamond and Dark Ritual, cards that reflect an older style of set design that (probably for the best) doesn't exist today.

I realize it's easy to feel nostalgic for the past when you've been playing the game for a very long time (as I have), but don't lose sight of the fact that the best decks in those years were mainly spell-based and were often incredibly oppressive. How fun was it to lose to Necro? Stasis? Counter-post? Trix? Pros-Bloom? No doubt they were great decks, true landmarks in deck construction. But largely they were linear strategies that didn't play creatures and whose goal was to lock you out of the game and then crush you. Oh well.

/end Ramble

Best of luck with your Stuffy Doll deck, if you choose to pursue it. Maybe you'll find some interaction that I failed to find 3 years ago and make the deck viable. Until then I would keep it casual and just enjoy it for what it is.

[naarou]

Why exactly are we condemning a strategy that's functionally similar to plenty of other decks? It may not seem as optimal as painter's servant + grindstone, but it's certainly a 2 card instant win combo, and I realize that deeming something casual is subjective, but I don't know many casual players with 2 card instant win combos.

The only thing that separates casual from competitive is results. Even if the idea's been done in the past, I think this community should give the OP a chance to develop his deck and potentially earn it's place. How many people thought hive mind was ever going to be a competitive deck?

Even if you're dead set on considering this strategy casual.. perhaps the forum description is worth reading again:


For "unfinished" decks: For new or relatively untested decks and ideas which require further development or optimization. Also for casual and budget decks. Once a developmental deck has been fully optimized, it can be moved to the Established Decks Forum by a moderator. A writeup including card choices and basic strategy is required.

[Lancer]

My decklist before converting it into an EDH deck:

4x Stuffy Doll
4x Order of the Stars
4x Nomads en-Kor
4x Warrior en-Kor
4x Shaman en-Kor

4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Rebuff the Wicked
4x Guilty Conscience
4x Faith's Fetters

24x Plains

[Lord_Cyrus]

Why exactly are we condemning a strategy that's functionally similar to plenty of other decks? It may not seem as optimal as painter's servant + grindstone, but it's certainly a 2 card instant win combo, and I realize that deeming something casual is subjective, but I don't know many casual players with 2 card instant win combos.

I wasn't condemning him at all. Actually the idea is very close to being competitive. There's just one little problem; as I found when I tried out this deck years ago. If Stuffy Doll had haste, or if you could play him with flash, or if there was even a reliable way to do either of those things; this strategy would probably be seeing fringe play right now.

The real insurmountable problem is this: Say I play stuffy doll + Guilty Conscience through fast mana on turn 2. Because Stuffy Doll has summoning sickness, I cannot win until my next turn. This gives the opponent an entire turn to dig for his Swords, Path to Exile, Dismember, Disenchant (for the Conscience) or whatever. Meanwhile I have to pray I'm holding a free counterspell. Mental Misstep would have fit the bill nicely; but that's no longer an option.

But think of it another way: Splinter Twin, for all its strengths as a potential turn 3 win, isn't played at all in Legacy. Why? Because as a creature based combo, it loses to the most commonly played removal. I could say the same for Stifle + Dreadnought and a lot of other strategies. Painter Stone is fringe playable, but mainly for the inherent strength of all the Red Blasts, which immediately turn into 1 mana counterspell/vindicates as soon as Painter is out.

I could go on, but for these reasons; the combo isn't viable as a tournament choice. I wish the OP best of luck developing his deck, but absent a new card or cards, probably some way to play creatures easily with flash (blue leyline is good but too random) this deck is relegated to Tier 3 at best. Is it strong for a casual deck? Yes it is. It could ruin a lot of people's fun. But it can't beat a top deck reliably. Playtest it and tell me that I'm wrong.

[stripezero]

I also sympathize with wanting to play strategies that don't revolve around the newest cards in an Eternal format. I started playing in Ice Age...

Know that feel - played from Fallen Empires to Homelands then came back 6 months ago.


Creatures used to be inherently the weakest card type. This is no longer true for any color, and that is a big positive in my book.

Yes - they had drawbacks but it made them really gratifying in causal. And the games lasted longer. Conceptually, I don't like seeing a card with a name like "Nightmare" in the penny-bin. I wish card-embodiment of such a dark thing was still relevant.


High Tide uses very few cards that weren't around 10 years ago.

Yes High Tide kicks ass!


How fun was it to lose to Necro? Stasis? Counter-post? Trix? Pros-Bloom?

Ha - I played a green version of Stasis! Not long ago I lost to a deck using Chalice of the Void + Aether Vial + Goblins and it felt real, real bad.


...I could go on, but for these reasons; the combo isn't viable as a tournament choice. I wish the OP best of luck developing his deck, but absent a new card or cards, probably some way to play creatures easily with flash (blue leyline is good but too random) this deck is relegated to Tier 3 at best. Is it strong for a casual deck? Yes it is. It could ruin a lot of people's fun. But it can't beat a top deck reliably. Playtest it and tell me that I'm wrong.

Thanks homie - I'm gonna keep this thread open if the mods don't cap it or move it and post notes on this project as it gets better.

How would you add Spellskite based on the original decklist? Is Mana Tithe really that effective? I could drop one Hymn to Tourach possibly since they cost BB.

How about sideboard stuff? Argivian Find is pretty cool, and I think Aura of Silence is strictly better than Disenchant? I played Library of Leng because I hate discard, and I Like Warmth over CoP:Red. Meekstone is probably a poor choice but my meta-game has mostly been casual.

[stripezero]

Here is what I'm bringing to the tournament in a week or so. Sorry for the double-post. Thanks for the tips.

quiet.dec

Artifacts [10]
2x Lotus Bloom
4x Stuffy Doll
4x Spellskite

Enchantments [4]
4x Guilty Conscience

Land [20]
4x Scrubland
2x Plains
1x Maze of Ith
1x Swamp
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Marsh Flats
4x Orzhov Basilica

Spells [26]
4x Enlightened Tutor
2x Vindicate
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Tithe
4x Duress
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Dark Ritual

Sideboard [15]
1x Library of Leng
1x Meekstone
3x Warmth
1x Disenchant
2x Argivian Find
2x Aura of Silence
2x Condemn
3x Silence


EDIT: Updated with suggestions.

[(nameless one)]

Outside of your combo pieces, I would try to have tutor Targets in your deck.

Though I think your disruption package should be fine.

Personally, I would move Spellskite in the main. Not only its great in stalling against aggro, its also good in protecting Stuffy Doll (a well timed Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile on your Doll sucks). That or at least try Orim's Chant

Orim's Chant is great because in the early game, you can use it to stall. Late game, you can use it to protect your combo.

Either way, good luck.

[stripezero]

Outside of your combo pieces, I would try to have tutor Targets in your deck.

My sideboard has a couple good ones I guess - can you think of any that fit the maindeck well enough to include?


Personally, I would move Spellskite in the main.

This tourney is pretty low-level but I think you are right. Can you show me how you would sub them in? Perhaps...

-1 Hymn to Tourach
-1 Mana Tithe
-1 Dark Ritual
+3 Spellskite

Also, what would you have take its place in the sideboard? I see a lot of people playing speed-green with landfall and aggro at this tourney. Also some counter-burn for sure.


Orim's Chant is great because in the early game, you can use it to stall. Late game, you can use it to protect your combo.

Totally - I just don't own any. Although people always respond with StP and PtE when I try to play a Silence before the combo goes off.

Thank you very much BTW. I will post a report on how I do. Tourney actually isn't until next Thursday though.

EDIT: Also do you think I am cool playing 19 lands plus the Maze of Ith..?

[DragoFireheart]

Why should I play this deck over SnT-Hivemind?

[DragoFireheart]

"Why shouldn't I just use some proven netdeck?"

I dunno man. Can you help me with my build at all?

- I'm serious. Why would I play this deck over a SnT-Hivemind deck that has more ways to find it's combo pieces, has (argubly) better ways to protect the combo, and the combo itself is "faster" or the creatures used have protection from Swords to Plowshares?

[Esper3k]

I really like ETutor here because it'll let you get either combo piece as well as Spellskite if you need to protect the combo.

I'm not certain playing black is worth losing the Sol Lands (Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors).

Can anyone think of a 2 mana alternative to Guilty Conscience? I would love to see Chalice of the Void in a deck like this, almost kind of an Angel Stompy mana shell.

[naarou]

I'd probably take out the bounce-lands. Getting one of those wasted is a huge hit to your tempo and this deck is already slow as it is.

[stripezero]

I'd probably take out the bounce-lands. Getting one of those wasted is a huge hit to your tempo and this deck is already slow as it is.

Yes you are right, I just like how they work with Tithe. What would you add? Do you think 19 + Maze of Ith is enough?

[Malchar]

I don't see why this combo is better than painter's servant + grindstone.

Disadvantages:
1. Forces you into white, while painter combo is all colorless.
2. You have to cast the doll first, then the aura. Painter pieces can be cast in any order.
3. You have to wait a turn for summoning sickness to wear off or add a third card to your combo if you want to go off right away. Painter combo doesn't suffer from this drawback.
4. The whole combo costs 5W total, and you have to pay 5 all at once. Painter costs 6 total, but the biggest single payment is only 3 mana.
5. All the pieces in painter are artifacts, so you can use goblin welder + intuition, and a host of other cards that help artifacts.
6. Painter combo can use trinket mage to search for grindstone, and if you paint blue, you can pitch anything to force of will and get blue mana from a chrome mox with anything imprinted on it, so it's easy to splash colors.
7. Painter is good outside the combo since it turns pyroblast into a vindicate/counterspell. Also, pyroblast is good on its own since it stops opposing counters. Grindstone is also decent outside the combo since you can use it with sensei's divining top and/or brainstorm to dig, or you can foil any opponent who tries to use those cards. You can't use Guilty Conscience outside the combo without wasting it, and Stuffy Doll on its own only helps against aggro decks, which is the easy matchup for any combo deck.

Similarities:
1. Both decks are vulnerable to creature hate and artifact hate.
2. Both decks can use enlightened tutor and/or imperial recruiter to the same effect.
3. Both decks can use spellskite to the same effect.

Possible Advantage:
1. Stuffy is indestructible, which saves it from a subset of removal spells. However, Guilty Conscience is an aura, so if they remove the doll in response to you casting the aura then they just killed two combo pieces with one spell. Most black decks have access to diabolic edict in the 75, and all white decks have swords to plowshares in the 60, so indestructible only really saves you from monored burn decks. It also gets blown out by engineered plague.

[stripezero]

People have made some pretty good points as to why this is outranked at this point almost any way you build it. I think trading out black for a blue counterspell package could be more effective, at which point you might as well play a different combo. I will continue to be lord of casual with this until future expansions or bright ideas come rolling in with something new. Thanks to everyone who contributed so far.

[Esper3k]

To be fair, Stuffy being indestructible protects it from artifact removal that destroys as well, such as Ancient Grudge, Grip, etc.

If they're smart though, they just save their enchantment removal for the Guilty Conscience.

[stripezero]

To be fair, Stuffy being indestructible protects it from artifact removal that destroys as well, such as Ancient Grudge, Grip, etc.

If they're smart though, they just save their enchantment removal for the Guilty Conscience.

I used to run Abeyance for this, plus it cantrips.

[Lord_Cyrus]

I think the real problem is Dismember, which more and more people (particularly Merfolk players) are catching on to. -X/-X effects are a real problem for Stuffy Doll, and I remember way back when I first experimented with this deck that Mutilate absolutely wrecked me because I had no way to deal with it. Of course, nobody plays Mutilate anymore, but Dismember presents the same issues. If you are serious about wanting to play this deck, I would consider some way to beat it, at least in the sideboard.

[Esper3k]

Yeah I agree. Dismember, StP, Path are going to be the biggest problems you have to deal with.

[Malchar]

I mean, probably the biggest disadvantage I see is that the doll costs :5:. With painter/grindstone, you can do t1 painter, t2 grindstone, t3 win, and all you have to do it hit a land drop each turn. It gets even faster if you use the land that make :2: or any other form of acceleration. If you go up against blood moon or wasteland, you could have a serious problem getting to 5 mana. I realize that you use things like dark rit and lotus bloom to help, but if you use painter/grindstone then you don't have to commit so many slots to acceleration. If they kill your combo after you cast it, then you might not be able to go off again until you get another dark ritual.

[Seems Good]

OP, for what it's worth, I understand why you want this deck to work. I agree with everyone that says, "Why wouldn't I play x/y/z over this?" But I still get it.

In an attempt to contribute to your cause, I will give you this:

-Absolutely cut all Ravnica block "bounce" lands and Ice Age "pain" lands from all legacy decks. These cards are not necessary, provided you can afford fetch lands (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?output=spoiler&method=visual&text=+%5bpay%5d+%5b1%5d+%5blife%5d+%5bsacrifice%5d+%5bsearch%5d+%5blibrary%5d) and dual lands.
-Test out UW for two reasons. One, blue is the best color for protecting a combo. The most effective PainterStone variant is U/R, with blue mostly being for Force of Will and cantrips/search. You should take advantage of blue for these same reasons. One of the other cards that blue offers to PainterStone is Transmute Artifact. This allows you to play tech/mana artifacts early such as Sensei's Divining Top (strongly recommend with fetchlands) and Seat of the Synod and then sac them when you're on enough mana to get your combo piece.

Just my $.02.

[stripezero]

Absolutely cut all Ravnica block "bounce" lands and Ice Age "pain" lands from all legacy decks. These cards are not necessary, provided you can afford fetch lands (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?output=spoiler&method=visual&text=+%5bpay%5d+%5b1%5d+%5blife%5d+%5bsacrifice%5d+%5bsearch%5d+%5blibrary%5d) and dual lands.

Thanks...!

I am still trying to buy a playset of Scrublands for ~140. I watch eBay. You know a better source? I already have the fetchlands. You are right - having a bounceland get hit with Wasteland would be rough.


Test out UW for two reasons. One, blue is the best color for protecting a combo. The most effective PainterStone variant is U/R, with blue mostly being for Force of Will and cantrips/search. You should take advantage of blue for these same reasons. One of the other cards that blue offers to PainterStone is Transmute Artifact. This allows you to play tech/mana artifacts early such as Sensei's Divining Top (strongly recommend with fetchlands) and Seat of the Synod and then sac them when you're on enough mana to get your combo piece.

I tried black first because of Dark Ritual and because the standard package of counterspells is slightly more expensive than playing discard. I also wanted to try something different... but if we are really trying to be competitive then you are correct I am sure.

I am actually taking it to a tournament tonight where people play T8 decks. I was surprised last week when I saw top tier decks at my local shop. Would it be cool if I posted a report of how I get beat (with current build) in this thread?

Also - is anyone going to Comic-Con in NYC this weekend? What forum would you do a meet-up thread in? I have never been before and I am primarily going for MTG. A Quinton Hoover or Drew Tucker cameo would be the best possible scenario for me.

[Beatusnox]

I would make the report in the tourney report section and link here. I am on cellphone or i would make a list for suggestions. Honestly U/W shell with counterspells, intuition,show&tell, cantrips, and jace. The white gives you a combo piece in guilty conscience, gives you some creature hate if needed, E-tutor. Wrath effects if needed, and protection from silence and orim's chant. I would recommend divining top as was said earlier, fetchlands, lotus petals, mox opal, chrome mox, and some of the 2 mana lands. I'll work on a list and post it here. Also for consideration, cards that make artifacts cheaper, or even shimmer myr to give them haste.