Team Grixis (UBr tempo) [Archive]

wcm8

10-03-2011, 12:26 PM

Updated list 02/26/2013:

19 Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

16 Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman

25 Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

Sideboard (a work in progress)
X Red Elemental Blast
X Pyroblast
X Thoughtseize
X Hymn to Tourach
X Sulfuric Vortex
X Ancient Grudge
X Perish
X Shattering Spree
X Engineered Explosives
X Nihil Spellbomb
X Tormod's Crypt
X Extirpate / Surgical Extraction
X Tormod's Crypt
X Sulfur Elemental
X Rough // Tumble
X Electrickery
X Engineered Plague
X Izzet Staticaster
X Dread of Night
X Submerge
X Divert
X Misdirection
X Vendilion Clique
X Grim Lavamancer

Other considerations: Forked Bolt, Fire//Ice, Dismember, Diabolic Edict, Dead//Gone, Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, Jace TMS, Hydroblast/BEB/Chill, Dead/Gone, Pyroclasm, Firespout, Price of Progress (as a SB blow-out card vs. certain decks), Virtue's Ruin, Counter/Top etc.

Rationale

Dark Confidant is a powerful creature, and the current build is designed to take advantage of the constant stream of cards he provides. When/If your creatures become outclassed by the opposition, you can start directing burn at your opponent. Deathrite Shaman helps provide reach as well as fixing mana and providing some resiliency to Wasteland. The lone Tropical Island is there to help him eat creatures and also grant access to some sideboard cards -- Grixis provides plenty of sideboard options for beating difficult matchups.

Older Lists

You can find older lists scattered throughout this thread. Most involve a slightly higher land count, more removal, and alternative creature options (e.g. Tombstalker, Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, etc.) While a more middle-of-the-road build is certainly viable, I feel that this approach lacks the advantages provided by playing Green as a tertiary splash color in a tempo deck. BUG and RUG both have tools available to them that seem to outclass the options available to Grixis at the moment. I think that Grixis is currently just a few cards off from being a tier 1 competitive alternative to RUG and BUG.

JustPAT4

10-03-2011, 02:27 PM

Seems like a really nice fit for Delver of secrets. However, it is a bit awkward with the stifle plan.

Dropping green seems fine, but I must say that I really dislike the anti-synergy between Tombstalker and Snapcaster Mage. Especially 4 stalkers seems excessive. Maybe 2? Only maybe. I've heard some buzz about Mental Note being a way to power both cards.

I'd be tempted to replace Tombstalker with a few copies of V-Clique, and then you'd get extra value out of running unearth which seems outstanding with Snappy and Clique.

I also think that the Bloodstained Mires should just be Polluted Deltas and then you could try to fit a basic swamp and a basic island.

This is kinda what I'm thinking:

3 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Phantasmal Image
2 Vendilion Clique

2 Dismember
3 Lightning Bolt

3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

2 Unearth

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare/Spell Pierce

2 Jace the Mind Sculptor

3 Wasteland
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp

Jace seems like it fixes so many holes that this deck could encounter in the mid-late game.

It'd also be really nice to fit some number of Thoughtsieze or Inquisition of Kozilek. And I also really like the flexibility provided by Fire/Ice.

Still it looks like fun and it seems like there are many ways people could tweek based on individual playstyle or particular metas. The build I posted looks like a middling approach. One could easily go heavier or lighter on countermagic, could include more reach/removal effects like Fire/Ice, Diabolic Edic, or Go for the Throat, more hand manipulation in the form of Thoughtsieze, or IoK, or more deck manipulation in the form of additional Ponders.

Cheers,

Pat

wcm8

10-03-2011, 02:56 PM

I would play Predict before playing Mental Note if that's an effect you're looking for.

Jace seems really bad in this current metagame, though he could certainly be a good 2-of in the sideboard to bring in against certain decks.

Tombstalker wins games that Clique doesn't. Especially with the other creatures being small, you'll want to see Stalker in just about every game.

Im not a big fan of Unearth. I think Reanimate would be better because the life loss is negligible and you can recover the opponents creatures that you killed/discarded. You could also randomly blow out Reanimator opponents with it.

wcm8

10-03-2011, 03:12 PM

Also I should stress that the reason to even play black in a deck like this is for discard and Tombstalker. If you want a deck that isn't taking advantage of them, I would just play straight UR Canadian-style thresh or New Horizons. Tombstalker is a 4-turn clock on it's own, but between fetchlands, bolts, FoWs and perhaps a few swings with Delver, he demands an almost immediate answer.

I could see -maybe- cutting stifle since it is somewhat situational and at odds with a T1 Delver, but it can sometimes just blow opponents out. If I were to replace it, I'd look at Spell Pierce.

JustPAT4

10-03-2011, 03:32 PM

Also I should stress that the reason to even play black in a deck like this is for Hymn and Tombstalker

That's fine. Makes sense. However the synergy between snapcaster and tombstalker really is epically bad. Maybe Snapcaster isn't the best choice for this build then, considering how hungry he is for situational spells?

Im not a big fan of Unearth. I think Reanimate would be better because the life loss is negligible and you can recover the opponents creatures that you killed/discarded. You could also randomly blow out Reanimator opponents with it.

That seems reasonable. Although the synergy between Snapcaster and Unearth is pretty savage. With Snappy in the yard, B brings it back, then for another B you can get back any other dude, or can cast another convenient instant/sorcery. Reanimate can fill this role as well, though the life loss will not always be negligible.

serendib

10-04-2011, 09:06 AM

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth/Badlands
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Dismember/Go for the Throat
4 Force of Will

are you sure snapcaster + tombstalker is a good idea ?
They are not friends.

wcm8

10-04-2011, 09:34 AM

Please test the deck before assuming that the dis-synergy is so relevant. Tombstalker and Goyf play fine together, and it's not like you're going to be flashing back lands or FoW. The main card we are interested in flashing back is Lightning Bolt, the rest are incidental possibilities.

Creatures that -don't- work well with Stalker: nimble mongoose, grim lavamancer. Snapcaster is a late game card whose inclusion is actually somewhat just of a test. I could easily see him being replaced by 3 Vendilion Clique. But the reason is not because you suddenly won't have flashback targets/be able to cast Tombstalker.

bfeingersh

10-04-2011, 12:16 PM

Snapcaster probably goes fine with Tombstalker. I'm playing a list with 2 Snapcasters and 2 Lavamancers and they don't tend to get in the way. Not every card in the deck is there to get flashed back, like WCM said you will have fetches, wastelands, forces, and creatures that got countered to pitch to delve.

I really think my list could use some Tombstalker beef. It's not quite Team Grixis but it shares a few cards, but mine is more of a Wizard Vial deck. It's just not very good at closing out games at this point. Here's what I'm bringing to a tournament this weekend (sideboard still up in the air):

//Creatures:
4x Dark Confidant
4x Spellstutter Sprite
3x Vendilion Clique
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Grim Lavamancer

//Artifacts:
4x Aether Vial
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Feast and Famine

//Instants:
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
2x Spell Snare
1x Ghastly Demise
1x Go for the Throat
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Terminate
1x Dismember

//Lands:
4x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Wasteland
2x Riptide Laboratory

//Sideboard:
3x Perish
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Ghastly Demise
1x Spell Pierce
4x Duress

wcm8

03-17-2012, 04:03 AM

Updated the opening post. Thinking this deck could be great right now, because it has most of the same positive matchups as RUG, but having black patches up some of the problems that deck has. The only disadvantage seems to be not having Nimble Mongoose against control decks -- Thoughtseize helps out quite a bit here though.

wert

03-17-2012, 04:07 AM

There is another thread which is going in the same direction, maybe a merge?
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22710-deck-Grixis-Tempo

wcm8

03-17-2012, 04:09 AM

There is another thread which is going in the same direction, maybe a merge?
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22710-deck-Grixis-Tempo

Yeah I'd be fine with a merge. Fwiw I posted my topic first ;)

wcm8

03-17-2012, 04:17 PM

Testing has been good for the build so far. I think just using RUG's removal suite (4 Bolt, 2 Forked Bolt/Chain Lightning) is fine because you can just ignore their creatures for the most part and race with flyers and dome them with burn. 2-3 Perish + other stuff in the SB can usually handle Maverick just fine in the SB games.

Tombstalker

03-17-2012, 06:42 PM

wcm8- I've posted a similar list in the TA thread but I'm happy to post here instead/too. I think the majority of this deck we can agree on but the 3rd creature is up for testing and debate. Personally I found scm too mana intensive in RUG so I would anticipate the same here although I haven't tested it here yet.

One thing I think we should keep in mind is that our main competition RUG tempo. If this deck can't do tempo better than no one will play it over RUG.

Here's a variation of both our lists I am going to test tomorrow:

CRUEL TEMPO
Lands 18
4 polluted delta
4 scalding Tarn
3 underground sea
1 badlands
2 volcanic island
4 wasteland

Creatures 8
4 delver of secrets
4 tombstalker

Spells
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 lightning bolt
2 chain lightning
2 snuff out

4 force of will
4 daze
2 spell pierce
4 stifle
4 thoughtseize

This list focuses on pure aggression and feeding tombstalkers/delvers. If nothing else I think the name is pretty cool :)

wcm8

03-18-2012, 03:27 PM

I don't think the list *needs* all 3 Snapcasters, but I would play at least 2. They provide a form of mid-game advantage and can make your burn spells more lethal. If you drop down to 2, add another burn spell (I really think Forked Bolt is better than Chain Lightning right now, although this could change).

I've been testing the 4th Underground Sea as the 19th land in my list, and so far, so good although I think it could also be a Badlands. Like other 3-color tempo decks, I don't think this deck can afford to run basics, because you'll end up losing far more games due to color-screw than you do to Wasteland.

The combination of Dread of Night and Perish in the SB has proven to be awesome against Maverick in my testing.

wcm8

03-20-2012, 03:32 PM

I noticed this deck on TC decks today:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7936&iddeck=57814

This list is pretty much the same as what I'm testing with the following changes:

-4 Thoughtseize
-3 Forked Bolt
-2 Snapcaster Mage

+4 Spell Snare
+3 Dismember
+2 Vendilion Clique

Regarding Spell Snare: I've never been a huge fan of the card, and I think Thoughtseize is more powerful card against a bigger variety of decks. I mean sure, mid-to-late game I'd probably rather have Snare in hand, but as with all tempo decks, we are focused on the early game.

For me, Forked Bolt has been killing most of the creatures I've been wanting to kill anyways, and bigger stuff like KotR will often be able to shrug off a Dismember. It can also lead to the occasional 2-for-1 blowout, as well as functioning as additional burn for the last few points of damage.

As for Vendilion Clique, I like the card and can understand the inclusion, but the combination of Snapcaster + Thoughtseize/Bolt is just too good to pass up.

In any case, I will be testing my list 'for realsies' this weekend and will report back after the tournament.

Tombstalker

03-21-2012, 03:14 PM

I look forward to your results! Ive been playing CT as my go-to deck while testing UBr tempo and I gotta say I dont see why this deck doesnt unseat CT as a DTB. It has far better matchups against mav, bant and esperblade, and I still think its favored against CT.

Im a fan of forked bolt in canadian and there I run 2, but why in this deck where all the threats fly? i havent tried FB in grixis colors but it seems like here chain lightning would be superior since we dont need to clear the way for geese/goyfs. Also I dont see a good reason not to be running at least 1-2 snuff outs to smash the real threats like KotR etc. This is where canadian suffers and we have the chance to run one of the greatest removals aside from StP.

Lastly I have been testing with a single clique plus 2 reanimates main. Clique is clique and the 1-of means ill never see dublicates since I always hated running more than 1 in traditional TA. Here it basically serves as the 9th flyer/5th discard and is the only 3cc spell I run.
The 2 reanimates are pretty insane I highly recommend them. Between counters, removal and discard there is never a shortage of creatures to choose from and theres nothing like putting a 8/8 KotR or geist on the board and then following it up with a tombstalker. If nothing else it could be a nice target for snapcaster to target snapcaster for another bolt. IDK.

wcm8

03-21-2012, 03:24 PM

Since I am utilizing Snapcaster, I can't really justify running Snuff Out instead of Dismember.

In any case, Forked Bolt plays an important role against Maverick by slowing them down significantly by killing their Heirarchs, Mothers, Arbors, and any other X/1 or X/2 creatures. Time is of the essence in winning against Maverick, because they have a much stronger late game. Forked Bolt is often actually going to do -more- damage to an opponent in many games, because in addition to killing their one-drop, you're also pinging them for one. It's basically like a Darkblast on steroids.

We are still playing a mana denial deck, which means their early KotR/GSZ-for-3 will be usually be in Daze-range, especially if you can kill their mana dorks.

In game 1 against Maverick, save your Force of Wills for Knights, Swords to Plowshares, and possibly SFM (assuming you don't have enough burn to deal with their equipment carriers). Burn kills pretty much everything else in their deck. And of course, Thoughtseize can pre-emptively kill whatever.

Curby

03-22-2012, 09:37 PM

wcm8

03-23-2012, 09:56 AM

How would you tweak this deck to fight combo decks like ANT, Charbelcher, and High Tide? By the way, I'm using a lower land version without Hymn, since I can't guarantee BB in early turns.

I'm thinking of the following in the main:

4 Thoughtseize/Inquisition
4 Force of Will
3-4 Daze
3-4 Spell Pierce/Spell Snare

I'm thinking some combination of Chalice, Surgical Extraction, Pyrostatic Pillar, REB and either Mindbreak Trap or Flusterstorm in the side. I can probably devote 4-6 sideboard slots to combo because it's quite prevalent at my store.

If you check out my current list, you'll see that the deck is already pretty well situated against combo. But you could probably drop some of the Forked Bolts in the maindeck for Spell Pierces/Spell Snare/more discard.

The SB choices you outlined are ok, although I'm not so sure about Chalice -- are you planning on setting that to 0 to counter Storm? I would also look into playing Engineered Explosives and/or Pyroclasm somewhere in the 75 as a way to deal with Belcher's Empty the Warrens. Against High Tide, an additional REB would be good. Extirpate/Surgical Extraction are also useful against combo after you disrupt them a bit.

Curby

03-25-2012, 02:43 AM

Not enough people at my local store tonight for an event, but I played against an unoptimized Affinity list. He was a decent player new to Legacy and to his deck; I was likewise new to my deck. Here was my first draft:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
2 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
2 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will

Sideboard
2 Shattering Spree
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Echoing Truth
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Reanimate
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Smash to Smithereens

I've always been fascinated with Cunning Wish, so I tried to add a couple to see where it led me. He kept dropping Ethersworn Canonist and Grafdigger's Cage, which made both Wish and Snapcaster hard to use. I knew Wish was probably a bad idea due to the mana requirements, but I like toolbox designs and I was hoping that it would work. I'll probably make a more mana-intensive BUG or Esper control deck and try it there.

Also, Spell Pierce wasn't terribly useful, partially because Affinity allows him to not care about mana. Spell Snare would have hit Plating and Canonist, and while it misses a bunch of stuff as well, maybe it's worth the slots. Daze was pretty much useless in every game.

I'm pretty happy with the manabase. Keeping the black and red splashes rather light lets me cast pretty much anything any time. The fetch-heavy design helps keep Brainstorm and Ponder at the top of their game, though I wonder if -1 Ponder +1 Bob would make sense ... I'd rather draw things rather than just look at them.

I'm really digging the Unearth/Reanimate idea for the Cunning Wish slots. All my guys are tiny (tend to die), and Unearth>Clique>"discard" or Unearth>Snapcaster>Bolt/Brainstorm seem like ridiculously powerful plays for just 1-2 mana. If I can afford the life loss, I might run Reanimate to hit the opposing yard.

So I'll try:

-3 Pierce, +3 Snare
-2 Wish, +2 Unearth
-1 Inquisition, +1 Thoughtseize (With lower casting costs, hopefully I can afford the life loss of Thoughtseize)

The sideboard was partially built as a wishboard. Pending changes:

-1 Red Elemental Blast
-1 Diabolic Edict
+2 additional creature removal or burn
-1 Smash to Smithereens, +1 Shattering Spree
-1 Reanimate, +1 Echoing Truth

Something like Pyroclasm or Infest would have wrecked him. I'm pretty sure I can recover better than he can. I'd say replace Truths with sweepers, but those are there to deal with resolved enchantments and other things that Grixis would rather not have on the board but can't destroy directly.

With 25 maindeck cards that affect or depend on the top card of my deck, sculpting appropriately is a skill I'm going to have to work on a LOT. Most of my decks are single color (Stax, Merfolk, Death and Taxes, The Gate) or don't care about the top card as much (Zoo) so I haven't had much Brainstorm experience.

Anyway, tl;dr. Neat deck, needs work, I suck. Suggestions welcome.

wcm8

03-26-2012, 11:48 AM

I'm thinking of going back to the drawing board with this deck. I'm thinking of implementing Dark Confidant to give the deck a card advantage engine and dropping Tombstalker entirely.

A rough list that will need tweaking:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder (possibly -1 Ponder, +1 Sensei's Divining Top)

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Ghastly Demise

4 Inquisition of Kozilek (or 2/2 split with Thoughtseize)
4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
3 Force of Will

19 Lands (7 duals, 4 waste, 8 fetch -- possibly 1 Tropical Island to splash for some SB stuff like Ancient Grudge)

Stifle isn't doing enough right now, and I think Spell Pierce is a fine replacement.

Black still opens us up to some good sideboard options that can attack the current metagame -- Perish, Extirpate, Dread of Night, etc. Dark Confidant is definitely fragile, but untapping with him can win the game. If the ground becomes stalled, you can still leverage burn against the opponent. Equipment is a huge problem for your little creatures, but it could be addressed with the SB.

Grim Lavamancer and Unearth also become options...

In any case, I'll have to do some testing to figure out the best configuration. I'm going to try to tune the list to beat Maverick and Esperblade, without giving up too much against the other matchups.

Curby

03-26-2012, 12:56 PM

Music to my ears. I didn't like the BB requirements of decks previously discussed in this thread, so I built the deck posted in the last page. Less beef, but Bob gives plenty of threats, and Reanimate/Snapcaster recycles them.

I'm still using Stifle because of all the combo in my meta and the chance to counter the odd Storm Trigger, Charbelcher activation, etc.

I've been trying to find room for Thought Scour to feed Reanimate/Snapcaster, but I'm unwilling to drop Ponders for it. Any ideas?

wcm8

03-26-2012, 01:16 PM

To be honest, I hated Thought Scour when I was testing it in RUG. It never seemed to do what I wanted it to, and so many times I remember binning the top deck I really wanted (confirmation bias I know -- but we want every card in the deck to do something relevant). I think I would consider playing Predict if I really wanted that effect.

I like the idea of Reanimate instead of Unearth since our own creatures won't hurt too badly and stealing the random Goyf/KotR and being pre-side tech against Reanimator/Dredge seems cool. However, I'd probably only start with it as just a singleton and see how useful it really is. The advantage of Unearth of course is that it can be cycled if/when you don't have any targets and obviously doesn't cost life.

edit: I'm also seeing RUG begin to adopt Sulfuric Vortex into the main/SB. I'm a little wary of adding it to a Bob list since we are already damaging ourselves, but it may be a possible idea to help against UWx-Blade and other slower mid-range decks.

Sulfur Elemental is slower than Dread of Night, but the advantage is that it's another attacker/blocker and is uncounterable. I'd consider doing a split.

GtF

03-28-2012, 12:57 PM

Why drop big stalks from this list? He seems even better in a deck w/ all these burn spells.

wcm8

03-28-2012, 01:03 PM

I still like him, but he is a liability if we are playing Dark Confidant. Maybe 1 or 2 could stay in the list even with Confidant.

Curby

03-28-2012, 01:07 PM

Tombstalker is obviously good; I'm just trying out the deck without it. Specific reasons: I like Bob, which doesn't get along well with Tombstalker. There's a lot of yardhate in my meta, and I want to limit my vulnerability to it. I prefer more disruptive options such as V Clique.

Goddik

03-28-2012, 03:21 PM

This deck is certainly an exciting idea.

I think your RUG matchup is going to become much worse by the switch from tombstalker to dark confidant. I feel like much of this decks justification lies in being able to play tombstalker in a deck without forests. Without that we are just a RUG tempo deck with a more awkward creature suite but a better sideboard.

Against maverick you are probably also better off racing them to death then trying to win the long game with dark confidant.

wcm8

03-28-2012, 03:34 PM

I won't have time in the next several days to test, but how about starting with this list then:

19-20 Lands
4 Delver
4 Confidant
2-3 Snapcaster
2 Tombstalker
4 Lightning Bolt
2-3 Forked Bolt / black 'hard' removal
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Spell Pierce/Stifle (leaning towards Pierce right now)
3 FoW
3 Daze
4 Inquisition of Kozilek -- possibly Spell Snare

Having 5 'big' spells to flip to Bob can be mitigated due to a) the relatively low chance of that actually happening naturally, and b) using Ponder/Brainstorm/SDT to curb the damage.

I could also see adding a few lands and fitting in a Jace or two. (maybe cut a 1 Ponder for 1 Jace TMS)

I was actually planning on testing Tombstalker in some number alongside Bob, but like I said I haven't had an opportunity to test it yet. I know some Team America decks back in the Misstep-era ran the two together and didn't have many problems and in fact won some big tournaments.

GtF

03-28-2012, 04:32 PM

Running tombstalker along with bob always seemed pretty ambitious to me. I suppose it can work but it seems like a risk not worth taking. Jace however is super sweet. I've been running it in TA for a while even though it's 4 mana and doesn't really fit with the deck's game plan just because it is that good. It also takes over the dark confidant/sylvan library role that the deck sorta wants. Basically running jace in a deck where it doesn't fit that well has been so good that it's made me think I should just be running in a deck designed to maximize it.

Curby

03-28-2012, 07:01 PM

I'd run the hell out of Jaces if I had them. My color choice of UBr is because I don't. =) So I'm going more with small, recurring threats rather than a more traditional control shell with sweepers and other "big plays".

Tombstalker

03-29-2012, 02:43 PM

I absolutely love the shell of this deck (both variations) but I've actually stopped testing it for now. Reason is tombstalker is a big part of what makes the deck win vs Canadian and Mav but is bad against stoneblade/scm with so much exile effects as opposed to goose.

I like the card advantage build with Bobs and scm alot but haven't tried it yet.
I do think the main deck reanimate idea has a ton of potential but more than 1 is needed to make it worthwhile. Why not make it an integral part of this deck as a 3 of. Removal, hand disruption and counters, all scm targets make this card a powerhouse and arguably no better place other than in reanimator itself and its natural defense against reanimator, which would be this decks easiest prey it seems.

Curby

03-29-2012, 04:16 PM

As I've posted I'm building this deck to attack my combo-filled meta. I've got one top contender with a mill brew maindecking Leyline of the Void, so I'm a little reluctant to run Tombstalkers or the Goyf/Mongoose package, all of which depends a lot on the yard.

However, I have considered running 3 Tombstalkers in the side, to switch with Bobs when I want to go aggro or need more beef to avoid opposing red removal. I know that landstill decks sometimes ran Goyfs in the side for when they needed a faster win. Any ideas on this somewhat transformative sideboard?

For those of you playing no BB spells, how many land do you play? Most people do 18, but I hate mulling, and my use of Snapcasters and V Cliques has pushed me over to 19. It would be nice to free up another slot, but I'm not sure that I can afford it.

wcm8

04-04-2012, 03:40 PM

edited

Curby

04-04-2012, 04:15 PM

wcm8

04-04-2012, 04:28 PM

Since I don't run Tombstalkers, I've been running a few Vendilion Cliques. It works well as both an evasive beater and additional hand disruption. I also run Reanimate/Unearth... replaying a Snapcaster or Clique and getting a critter and an additional effect all for 1-2 mana is pretty awesome.

I've been increasingly looking at Predict/Thought Scour. While I don't play Tombstalker, getting more food for reanimate/snapcaster would be pretty neat.

Stifle's been pretty underwhelming for me, but I'm hoping that further playtesting might show its strength.

Don't bother with Thought Scour. I've tested it, and found it to be really poor. If you really want something like it that costs 1 mana, look into testing Opt, or better yet Disrupt. But I still think Predict is the best of these sorts of effects.

Stifle is either utterly back-breaking, or complete garbage. It's tempting to play a card that can quite literally win the game for one mana, but these cases are few and far between -- and if a player is bad enough to keep that poor of a hand/play into your Stifle, you'd probably be beating them anyways, right? Further playesting for you is just going to show you the remarkable inconsistency of the card -- that, or you end up letting 'confirmation bias' get the best of you. The card that would be taking its slot, Spell Pierce, is generally always a welcome sight and more versatile in its applications.

Tombstalker

04-04-2012, 08:31 PM

I have an off the wall idea which I suggested and tested months ago during the mm era before scm. Why not try surgical extraction main? Along with 4 Bobs 3-4 scm. Back then I found SE combined with targeted discard and wasteland to be brutal but with mm and full set of TS was too much tax on my life total. Now however there's no mm, the formats faster so IoK is more relevant and scm makes SE even better plus bob recovers any lost CA. Seems down right scary actually..t1 IoK -> kotr/mom/gsz/stp/souls/delver etc -> SE. follow up later with scm and someones deck is gonna start looking like Swiss cheese.

Curby

04-04-2012, 08:35 PM

It's too matchup dependent, and at times can have too little effect on the game state. In the right meta full of combo decks though, especially 2-card combos like Painted Stone and yard "combos" like Reanimator/Dredge, I can see why it would be powerful.

And to be honest, that's the reason I'm playing Grixis anyway: fighting combo decks.

Tombstalker

04-04-2012, 08:54 PM

True on game state as I've experienced testing it in TA, but its also free so it doesn't actually cost any tempo loss. Besides combo plenty of decks have limited wincons and a few truly problematic cards. Id say extracting souls from stoneblade is totally worth the early loss of 1 card, same goes for stp. Against blue it will often be card parity when countered but tempo advantage because its free. Idk maybe the ideas still crap but I like the picture of shredding sometimes deck, plus it makes scm cost 2 if you want.

wcm8

05-15-2012, 12:55 PM

I'm crossing my fingers that this newly spoiled creature is real:

[Creature]
UB
2/2
Cascade

If so, this deck has gained a lot more power.

I'd drop the situational counterspell angle (Pierce, Stifle, Snare, etc.) and just try to go for pure card advantage.

A rough draft:

19 lands
1 SDT
4 Delver
4 [cascade-man]
3 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder (maybe Ancestral Vision mixed in)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 1 cmc discard (mixture of Thoughtseize / Inquisition)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning/ Forked Bolt / black removal / maybe Grim Lavamancer
3 Tombstalker

Jace might belong in the maindeck, but if not, definitely in the SB.
Liliana might also make an appearance.

Needless to say, the possibility of this creature is exciting and could make Grixis a true contender.

kiblast

05-15-2012, 01:20 PM

I'd drop the situational counterspell angle (Pierce, Stifle, Snare, etc.)

Great! a tempo deck filled with 2/1 and 2/2 dudes @cc2 , which doesn't play ''situational counterspells'' and Stifle. In the meanwhile, Tarmogoyf.

wcm8

05-15-2012, 01:28 PM

Great! a tempo deck filled with 2/1 and 2/2 dudes @cc2 , which doesn't play ''situational counterspells'' and Stifle. In the meanwhile, Tarmogoyf.

What, you think Spell Snare is what stops Tarmogoyf alone? You still play Daze and FoW, and with black it's not like you have no outs (removal, pre-emptive discard, etc.). Also, Delver and potentially Tombstalker don't give a fuck about Goyf.

Landing this guy and cascading into a thoughtseize/inquisition has a similar function as trying to hold up mana for Pierce/Snare.

I don't think Stifle is quite the card it used to be and have dropped it from my RUG and TA lists.

I think this guy can see play in UBG Team America, which plays Goyf itself. But I wouldn't discount the idea of Grixis, because burn and the SB options it lends are still incredibly powerful.

kiblast

05-15-2012, 04:35 PM

What, you think Spell Snare is what stops Tarmogoyf alone? You still play Daze and FoW, and with black it's not like you have no outs (removal, pre-emptive discard, etc.). Also, Delver and potentially Tombstalker don't give a fuck about Goyf.

Well theorically fow and daze stop goyf as well, but they have drawbacks. Snare just needs to kp 1 mana open which is anyway good since you'll always bluff stifle.
Removal are nice in this format, but Snare is not dead against combo or control. And for 3cc creatures you have Daze/Fow. Just think as for Threshold.

Stalker might not give a fuck about Goyf but comes down 2/3 turns later.

Landing this guy and cascading into a thoughtseize/inquisition has a similar function as trying to hold up mana for Pierce/Snare.

This is true, except that you have no control on what you are cascading in, maybe you need the removal and you flip the discard, etc. Is not that you are playing RUG Faeries/ Goodstuff and you're casting Bloodbraided Elf which can only flip bombs or cards that are never dead (read Goyf, Bolt, bs, Ponder, Ancestral Vision). If you play discard and black removal, you may flip the incorrect or a dead card.

I don't think Stifle is quite the card it used to be and have dropped it from my RUG and TA lists.

This is your opinion, mine is that stifle is super good.

rxavage

05-15-2012, 06:28 PM

CREATURES 13
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Vexing Devil
3 CASCADE NINJA
2 Vendilion Clique

INSTANTS 23
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Force
2 Daze
3 Stifle
1 Countersquall
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Diabolical edict
1 Go for the Throat

SORCERIES 6
3 Thought seize
2 Chain lightning
1 Reforge the Soul

LANDS 18
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

I think he will fit nicely in my grixis list. I just switched out Tombstalker and a land, but stalker will probably end up main and clique in the sb.

wcm8

05-15-2012, 08:59 PM

Sadly, we've been misled. The new cascade guy apparently costs UG, not UB. Thus, Grixis will have to wait for something else...

edit: And to add insult to injury, the card costs 1UG, not UG. He may find a home in that semi-competitive RUG deck with the Noble Hierarchs, Jace, and Bloodbraid Elves, but obviously he is very unlikely to see play in any sort of Legacy tempo deck.

Holden1669

06-04-2012, 03:34 AM

Did everyone see Caleb Durward's article here:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-the-perfect-stifle/

He talks about the following list:

Main Deck
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Darkblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Forked Bolt
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Snuff Out
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

Sideboard
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Force of Will
2 Perish
2 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize

I like this list so I looked up this thread. I'm looking for a deck to beat Sneak/Show and I like the discard here. And the clock. Is anyone still playing this deck? How are the msrchups against RUG, Maverick, Blade, etc?

rxavage

06-04-2012, 07:01 AM

dontbiteitholmes

06-04-2012, 12:21 PM

This deck showed up at a local GPT Atlanta and the guy went x-0. The deck is a nightmare for combo decks and seems to have a lot of game vs. other Delver builds as well. He ended up beating the same UR Delver deck twice through 4x Price of Progress which was pretty solid. He told me after the event that the meta is extremely unprepared for Tombstalker which seems like a fairly accurate statement overall.

wcm8

06-04-2012, 01:01 PM

I think this is the best deck to beat combo without actually playing combo. The problem is that it tends to suffer against other popular decks -- e.g. Esper Blade has been quite difficult in my experience since we don't have Mongoose and Goyf. That said, the SB could be adjusted to deal with problem matchups.

rxavage

06-04-2012, 01:17 PM

Watanabe

06-04-2012, 04:25 PM

I'm currently testing Caleb's list, and it's a real pleasure to play with.

I tested against Mav and TT, been positive for both.

I didn't play against Esper, is it really a nightmare? You talked about Dread of Night, do you have an updated SB? I'm not convinced by EE, and think that Caleb's SB is missing Smah (for Batterskull), and another card for Dredge.

wcm8

06-04-2012, 04:41 PM

Dread of Night is a possibility, and so is Sulfur Elemental. You want to negate Esper's spirit tokens, and they can also come in against Maverick to kill Moms and Thalia.

For artifact removal, there is Crush, Shattering Spree, and (maybe) Smash to Smithereens. I do think you would want at least two pieces of artifact removal.

Dredge has a tough time beating Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb. You can also play a mixture of those along with Grafdigger's Cage.

Zand

06-06-2012, 07:29 AM

I'm interested in this deck too, it seems pretty damn solid to me. What is it's matchup like vs UR delver lists?

klaus

06-06-2012, 07:55 AM

So is the guy on the right a potential candidate as a 1-of?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oKJQV6Y2BJQ/T84R9BqgLrI/AAAAAAAAPlg/_7gAGagO9Xk/s1600/M13+Spoilers+2.jpg

Could be the 10th creature imo.

Watanabe

06-06-2012, 09:10 AM

Mark Sun

06-06-2012, 09:43 AM

I think Duress is probably better than Thoughtseize, since it can't be Misdirected. Although, Leyline of Sanctity will threaten the discard plan if they choose to play it.

I'd probably shift to Flusterstorm/Envelop if I could.

Watanabe

06-06-2012, 10:08 AM

I'll probably switch MD IoK to Thoughtseize, and replace SB Thoughtseize to Duress. It probably will reduce the MU against TT, but it seems to be mandatory.

Concerning Fluster, I'm not a big fan of it because it is "just" a spell pierce against Show, and it does nothing against sneak without another backup.

oRen

06-06-2012, 11:15 AM

So is the guy on the right a potential candidate as a 1-of?
Could be the 10th creature imo.

Running 10/11 creatures even without him seems essential because none is shrouded. The card seems very situational and bad versus like mono colored, combo and control/non aggressive decks.

As I am leaking only very few cards I might give this deck a second chance.

Holden1669

06-06-2012, 06:29 PM

I think Phantasm is just too weak. No pressure before turn 5/6 at least.

I tested the deck today and have been defeated by Sneak:
- preside => 0/8. Nothing to do, too many Back-up, not enough pressure, denial not effective.
- postside => 1/5. Not much better, again Nothing to do...

Quite sad of results against Sneak, which seems to be "the" new DtB. Have to add more SB slots against it. I tested with (in SB):
- 2 thoightseize
- 2 REB
- 1 pierce
- 3 surgical / extirpate
- 1 FoW

That's interesting. I have only played two matches against Sneak and Show with this deck so far but I won each of them 2-1 and thought the matchup was tough but winnable. Though I guess that in the games I won pretty much everything worked. Stifle and Wasteland hit his lands, Spell Pierce and Force countered a couple of key spells, and Thoughtseize made sure he couldn't recover before Delver killed him. Pithing needle on Sneak Attack was great as well, and forced him to dig for Show and Tell. And the games I lost... I just kind of lost horribly with no chance at all. So I guess that happens sometimes against that deck.

rxavage

06-06-2012, 07:54 PM

That's interesting. I have only played two matches against Sneak and Show with this deck so far but I won each of them 2-1 and thought the matchup was tough but winnable. Though I guess that in the games I won pretty much everything worked. Stifle and Wasteland hit his lands, Spell Pierce and Force countered a couple of key spells, and Thoughtseize made sure he couldn't recover before Delver killed him. Pithing needle on Sneak Attack was great as well, and forced him to dig for Show and Tell. And the games I lost... I just kind of lost horribly with no chance at all. So I guess that happens sometimes against that deck.

I do pretty well against sneakshow with grixis too.

dionykos

06-08-2012, 12:04 PM

I'm really interested in the list presented by Caleb, and I started to test it a bit. I really feel like putting 4 Stalkers, and Clique didn't really convince me (even though I love it in Bant for instance). It seems a bit weak for 1UU. Also, I LOVE the sideboard options given by black and red.

Have you guys tested other creatures for slots 9-10, assuming a build with 4 Delver and 4 Stalkers? The ones I can think of are:
- Snapcaster : I'm still not convinced about its efficiency in a Tempo build (seems a bit slow, and 2/1 is not very frightening). I didn't test it extensively so I may be wrong.
- Sulfur Elemental : might be considered MD since it's good in the meta, and we need guys for the beatdown.
- Clique : too fragile for 1UU?
- Spellstutter sprite : er 1/1 ?
- Porcelain Legionnaire : half-joking. In fact, I would be interested in your thoughts about it. I didn't test it yet, but 3/1 first strike for 2 seems ok. Kills big guys coupled with a bolt too.
- Fettergeist: ok I stop now.

What do you think?

GtF

06-08-2012, 12:19 PM

4 Goyf 4 stalker was always enough in old team america, though delver is significantly more fragile than goyf. However, you also have burn to finish people off if you can get in some hits.
Sulfur elemental seems like an awesome SB card and maybe maindeck-worthy.
Jace was good enough for the MD of TA and I think it would be good in this deck too, especially as it can draw you into burn spells to finish the game. You'd have to go up to 20 lands though. The only other major card you lose is Pernicious deed, but engineered explosives could be a good enough replacement.

dionykos

06-08-2012, 12:48 PM

I have the same feeling, Delver is fragile, so we may need more than 8 creatures. That's why I'm asking :)

I don't think Jace is a good idea in this meta though (ie infested with RUG decks). I would rather play another 2-3 beaters.

wcm8

06-08-2012, 01:37 PM

I know people are dubious about it, but Jace's Phantasm might be worth testing.

Perhaps the creature base could be modified to take advantage of Vision Charm -- playing some combination of Jace's Phantasm, Tombstalker, and Phyrexian Dreadnought. Essentially taking the old 'Dreadstalker' list and updating it, perhaps even by dropping Red altogether (either going straight U/B for mana ensurance, or maybe splashing White for better removal, or who knows what...) Vision Charm is a way to accelerate into all three of the big creatures, and serves some niche functions elsewhere -- I just wish it cantripped!!

Edit: sample list:

Creatures [9]
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Tombstalker
4 Jace's Phantasm

Instants [25]
3 Snuff Out // Dismember
3 Vision Charm (maybe cut something for the 4th charm)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce

(maybe cut some stuff for additional discard)

Sorceries [8]
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

Lands [18]
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

This list has not been tested, and it's basically just a modification of an old list I found on TC decks. But the idea is that you're geared to beat combo game 1 with only 3 dead slots (the Snuff Outs), and can still steal wins from RUG, Maverick, etc. by having huge evasive creatures they can't deal with in time.

Another possible route would be to drop Tombstalker entirely and go with Dark Confidant as a card advantage engine. Just throwing some ideas around, everything will require some testing of course.

oRen

06-08-2012, 05:45 PM

The creature is terrible versus combo. ANY other creature would do it if you can swing 2-3 times with you opponent having 10 cards in the grave. I see what you did there as it is pretty close to the UB Tempo list than won Russian nationals but optimizing the 4 Delver/3-4Stalker/2-3 Clique lists seems like the better plan to me when talking about Grixis colored decks.

Regarding original Team America I can only say that the game plan was much more mid game orientated - which fitted into the metagame at that time. I doubt that 8 rather slowish non shrouded creatures would do very much in today's metagame with decks that play 7 Swords and 3 Terminus.

I really really do not get why the list posted on the last page runs IoK. I would run Thoughtseize instead any time ...

Zand

06-10-2012, 06:17 AM

How crucial is the turn 1 or 2 Delver to this deck? The lack of creatures worries me a little bit.

oRen

06-10-2012, 04:05 PM

wcm8

06-18-2012, 01:42 PM

It is pretty obvious that it is very matchup dependent - for example UW Terminator gets pretty hard without dealing about 10 damage with a quick delver. Other matchups - like combo - are still fair even without dealing a ton of damage early on because the stalker and clique are super good against decks not running decent removal.

In the end you are running as many creatures as Canadian while Terminus made Mongoose lose an INCREDIBLE amount of value against the decks it used to be good.
I really like the deck and I will continue working on the deck so I would love other people sharing their experiences.

One possible way to deal with UW control decks is by playing some number of Sulfuric Vortex. Hope that your dudes can get in for a couple swings, disrupt any form of clock on their end, and land a Vortex for the win. Especially since this deck doesn't play Nimble Mongoose, having a "creature" that can't be killed by conventional removal may help make this matchup manageable. A hypothetical, transformative sideboard could even get really crazy -- drop all the creatures (except Clique for its disruption) and have 4 Sulfuric Vortexes in the board. Combined with your disruption and burn, you can burn them out and leave their removal cards stranded and useless, gaining virtual card advantage and inevitability. This is just an idea though, I am not sure how practical it actually is.

Zand

06-18-2012, 11:21 PM

kingsey

06-21-2012, 11:36 AM

I like the idea of Vortex in the board but 4 seems like it would be too many. Have people played with a small number of Phyrexian Dreadnoughts in the maindeck? I've been thinking of trying 2 (in the spot of darkblast/snuff out that many lists use) just to give the deck some additional threats and access to some more 'unfair' draws. Just and idea I've been toying with, not that sure about it, I just wanted access to a faster clock in some matchups (Reanimator, Sneak and Show etc).

Glad to see this thread is still kicking. I have a old list from back on page one. Im going to try and test it out today. I still would love to use a dreadnaught as it is one of my pet cards but I have not had much luck with him.

Boogie_Man

06-24-2012, 01:53 AM

First of all, I love what you guys are doing here! I wanted to build faeries, and this is basically my grixis Faestalker list, Minus the bitterblossoms, which is the card
i wanted to bring up. Cast early, they are a pretty solid threat, and they also act as defense against bigger dudes. \\

They also make jitte start to look pretty good.

And what are thoughts on liliana?

It's late, but I'll be back soon. Keep it up!

Sturtzilla

06-27-2012, 02:27 PM

Greetings All,

I have been playing RUG for a bit and was curious about this archetype. I think it has a lot of promise. I think that there are a ton of ways to configure this deck depending on whether you plan on countering threats, killing them, burning them, and how you want to race. Take a look at the list below, it is basically ported form the RUG Tempo list that I have been running but adapted for the colors.

Maindeck
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
3 Ghastly Demise
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Gilded Drake
4 Submerge
1 Perish

So the sideboard is up for debate or adjustments based on your metagame. I think with both Snapcaster Mage and Tombstalker there is no reason to omit Thought Scour. It gives you more options to Snapcast and can power out faster Tombstalkers. Both while hopefully making sure you don't have to delve cards you might need to Snapcast. I think it might be worth it to run even 4 Thought Scours and that would help support a fourth Tombstalker. Not to mention the synergy with Ghastly Demise... What do you guys think?

ThomasDowd

06-27-2012, 03:00 PM

Pointed here by sturtzilla, Cross post from a post I made in the Team America thread:

I've been playing with this recently but don't know where to put it in terms of threads, it is kind of like the Russian list, but kind of like the BUG lists, and I'm slowly morphing it more towards a next level thresh style(with jace and C spell). The sideboard needs work and some numbers in the main deck can be moved around, started with Levin's list from a few weeks ago but hymn hasn't been relevant in about a year.

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
4 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Go for the Throat
4 Ponder
2 Snuff Out
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Thoughtseize

2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
6 ?
3 Extirpate
1 Go for the Throat
2 Massacre
2 Perish
1 Thoughtseize

Changes I am back and forth on, cutting daze's and focusing strictly on getting to the mid game and adding pairs of jace and counterspell, moving the third thoughtseize to the board for more pierce main, and adding the 21st land (tarpit would probably be really greedy but sweet).

Don't know how I feel about stifle: lands(fetch+waste), stoneforge mystic, maybe demon(?), are the only targets I think of that happen that are super relevant, other wise I feel like I am discarding a card.

The extirpates were leylines(4) but extirpate is probably just better.

Miserable matchups include:
Tribal decks: Merfolk is really tough, I can't imagine goblins being much better. elves you get perish out of the board so there's that.
Maybe maverick, have not really played against it too much but with 4 wrath of gods post board it probably gets better.
Burn: you may want some BEB, also ok versus RUG at protecting dudes.

I don't like the burn, I'd rather have solid removal that kills guys straight up and a rock solid mana base. But I can see why people want it.

Addendum:
Maverick I don't have enough data on so it's hard to say. plus the few times i played against knight of the reliquary I forgot how big she got (I usually play combo so just ignore the size of it) so wasted my snuff outs on stupid things like hierarch. played bad, got punished.

Burn and fish are basically the two bad ones, and those don't show up that much anymore. also merfolk is beatable with the removal, sniping lords at opportune times.

And I don't think the burn match is that great for RUG either, since it is pretty much the same shell, it is just really tight.

But yeah working on it and seeing what to do with it.

Boogie_Man

06-27-2012, 04:09 PM

isn't this a U/B/r thread?

I think that having the red would improve your tribal match-up, allowing you to use burn on the key creatures without losing 4 life (like lackey, piledriver, merfolk lords, the mana creatures). firespout is also real good against anything tribal, they need 2 lords to save their team, and you still run a lot of removal.

I think that 4 clique is way too many. I love them, but at 3 and legendary they are bound to sit in your hand more often then you'd like. I still think that bitterblossom is a good addition, but if you are going 2 colors, you should have the stability to cast jace, which i would cut 2 clique for.

I am obviously a fan of the tempo faestalker style of this deck, I love the red. bolt takes care of so many things in the metagame. With free removal like snuff out, your flyers should have no trouble getting in. I like the 12 creatures with jitte (3 of the creatures being bitterblossom), jitte just ends games on it's lonesome, and blossom is basically impervious to removal besides quasali.

Tombstalker

06-28-2012, 02:23 PM

Changes I am back and forth on, cutting daze's and focusing strictly on getting to the mid game and adding pairs of jace and counterspell, moving the third thoughtseize to the board for more pierce main, and adding the 21st land (tarpit would probably be really greedy but sweet).
I have not tried a more controlling UB version so I could be mistaken but I would hesitate to go long with only these 2 colors. Without white or green you will lack the late game bombs and engines that BUG control and miracle control bank on, Jace excepted, but goose and bolts make jace alone questionable IMO since canadian is such a house right now. Also without white for terminus/stp/karakas/humility I think disruption and free countermagic is the better route vs. sneaky show. I guess I just dont see control handling SnS without these anymore but I could be wrong.

Don't know how I feel about stifle: lands(fetch+waste), stoneforge mystic, maybe demon(?), are the only targets I think of that happen that are super relevant, other wise I feel like I am discarding a card.

The extirpates were leylines(4) but extirpate is probably just better.
Agreed on both.

Miserable matchups include:
Tribal decks: Merfolk is really tough, I can't imagine goblins being much better. elves you get perish out of the board so there's that.
Maybe maverick, have not really played against it too much but with 4 wrath of gods post board it probably gets better.
Burn: you may want some BEB, also ok versus RUG at protecting dudes.
This is the void left by goyf but splashing red can shore some of these up nicely. Honestly though if you do decide to build for the mid-late game I would just write off burn as bad and move on.

I don't like the burn, I'd rather have solid removal that kills guys straight up and a rock solid mana base. But I can see why people want it.
Fair enough although then I think this becomes more of a pet deck without red or green. With red the manabase would be equivalent to traditional TA its true (slightly worse at times IME) but I see no reason not to run snuff out alongside bolts.

Addendum:
Maverick I don't have enough data on so it's hard to say. plus the few times i played against knight of the reliquary I forgot how big she got (I usually play combo so just ignore the size of it) so wasted my snuff outs on stupid things like hierarch. played bad, got punished.
UBr does well against maverick, ive tested this matchup extensively with different variations. Ive even tested UB tempo and results were similar. Alot of this is the mindset, you should try to refrain from killing things that dont matter g1 and protect a big flyer then postboard kill everything.

Burn and fish are basically the two bad ones, and those don't show up that much anymore. also merfolk is beatable with the removal, sniping lords at opportune times.

And I don't think the burn match is that great for RUG either, since it is pretty much the same shell, it is just really tight.
I cant say ive tested against fish in a looong time but UBr feels seems positive to me. I can say from experience that canadian actually has a decent time against burn due to goose/goyf + trading counterspells 1/1 with burn spells.

Regarding your list specifically:
I like the shell and your creature suite although 4 vendilion clique is too many, 3 is pushing it IME. I think the main problem though is the trade off of a 3rd color for basics. Its not really worth it when factoring in cliques UU alongside stalkers BB because more often than not you will need 1-2 seas and at that point you may as well splash.

Stifle is a card I love too but in this shell I think your right, theres just too many cc2-3 spells that conflict with leaving mana up and you cant out tempo RUG with this anyway so it will often be U to discard yourself.

Pierce main is obviously good right now although I think 1cc discard is still better than counterspells but I would leave this to preference.

GFtT is for griselbargain I assume? I cant really think of anything else relevant so I would just make this snuff out #3 tbh and handle SnS from the board as much as possible. Killing thalia for 3 isnt that appealing and snare is still a spell, around here anyway.

For the SB: while massacre is amazing it loses alot of value when goyf is changed to cliques and perish obviously becomes completely one sided so theres that to think about. I would also consider a pair of gilded drakes in those empty slots and a pair of edicts. Also I love extirpate but I usually run a 1/2 split with extraction in case I open with 2 in hand. Anyway just some thoughts.

And here for discussion is some grixis ideas:

4 delver of secrets
3 tombstalker
2 vendilion clique
1 reanimate

4 lightning bolt
1 forked bolt
3 snuff out

4 force of will
4 daze
3 thoughtseize
3 IoK

4 brainstorm
4 ponder

9 fetchlands
4 underground sea
1 badlands
2 volcanic island
4 wasteland

SB
2 perish
1 massacre
1 EE
2 diabolic edict
2 gilded drake
3 spell pierce
2 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
1 duress

ThomasDowd

06-28-2012, 03:43 PM

Yes throat is for Griselbrand, it's bad but it's something also just another removal spell that doesn't cost life. Yeah it's all over the place, I played it some local events a few weeks ago and it did ok, but I think it's back to the drawing board. needs more focus. Thanks for the input though.

Brick Novax

06-30-2012, 11:46 AM

I had been playing a list casually since last year. This month I decided to finally put the "good" cards in my list and take it down to Legacy night at our FLGS. Had some ups and downs with it throughout the month, but I finally was able to get there in a small local tournament with this list.

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
3 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island

4 Goblin Guide
4 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Ponder
1 Forked Bolt

Sideboard
3 Perish
3 Pyroclasm
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Diabolic Edict

Round 1 vs. Esper Stoneblade

Game 1 - I kept a bad hand and got crushed as a result. I bring in Smash to Smithereens and pyroclasm

Game 2 - Smash to Smithereens, Bolt, Bolt, and a Tombstalker get me there with relative ease. Bring in Thoughtseize and take out Eddicts and a Stifle.

Game 3 - He gets lingering souls and I haven't seen pyroclasm in either game yet. He allows Forked Bolt to resolve. Flashes back the souls and drops another. Pryroclasm... FINALLY!!!!.... Countered. Things aren't looking good until I top deck a Brainstorm and see Thoughseize and Pyroclasm. I take his counter, drop the 'clasm and follow it up with a Delver that rides off into the sunset.

Round 2 vs. Mirror Match

Game 1- He must have kept a bad hand and I'm not sure what he is playing. All I see him play is a Swamp, fetchland, island and Bob. Goblin Guide Turn 1, Delver turn 2 and go on cruise control to victory. Bob reveals a Jace 2.0 and I bolt him to win. I don't board in anything

Game 2 - He kills every creature I play. Everything! I learn he plays Terminate in addition to Forked bolt and Lightning bolt.The game drags on and he eventually beats me down with Delver. I board in +3 Pyroclasm and +2 Jitte and take out the -1 Forked Bolt, -2 Spell Pierce and -1 Ponder.

Game 3 - I start whittling down his life with Delver and Guide until he starts killing everything again. He drops double Delver. I remove 6 of the 8 cards in my Graveyard and play Tombstalker. "Tombstalker!" my opponent shrieks out. He must not have the removal in hand I think to myself. He drops Jace and sends Tombstalker back to my hand. I have 3 lands in play, lightning bolt, ponder and Stalker in hand. I attempt to bolt Jace, denied. I play ponder and he attempts to daze it, I meekly tap my land to pay the 1 and it resolves. Wastland, Fetchland, STIFLE!!! With Stifle in my hand he beings to fate seal me. I get a delver and a guide out which are promptly removed. Jace goes up and he ultimates... he has two cards in hand... "Stifle?". "Yup". I pyroclasm, drop stalker and get there by the skin of my teeth.

Round 3 vs. Reanimator

Game 1 - I keep him off his lands with Stifle and Wasteland. I bring in the 3rd Eddict for the Forked Bolt

Game 2 - He Thoughtseizes me turn 1 and turn 2. He gets rid of my Eddict and a Delver. He exhumes and brings out Elesh Norn and I scoop. No changes

Game 3 - I keep him off his lands with the Stifle Wasteland plan and he keeps me off my Eddict with Thoughtseize. He entombs, reanimates and brings out the Sphinx. I have Bolt, Bolt, Stalker. I draw the Eddict. I play Eddict, and pass. He passes back and my attempt to drop Tombstalker is greeted by Force of Will. He casts Reanimate for his Sphinx and I double bolt him for the win.

Round 4 vs. RUG

Game 1 - Grind out a victory with Goblin Guide and Delver and eventually get there with Tombstalker. In comes the Perish and the Pyroclasm out goes the Force, the Spell Pieces and the Forked Bolt.

Game 2 - I'm able to keep him off off his delvers with bolts, but he counters and stifles at will against me. He eventually drops double goose on the loose and follows it up with a Goyf. He's tapped out and I have Perish and Daze in hand. I draw a Tombstalker and Perish resolves thanks to the Daze. Stalker comes down and victory is mine.

The board obviously needs some work. Jitte is too slow for the meta right now at my store and I'd rather have some form of graveyard hate in it's place. Pyroclasm seems okay, I hate losing my dudes because of it, but it has kept me from losing to Delver, Nimble Mongoose, Stoneforge, Lingering Souls and Maverick.dec. Ideas and constructive criticism are always welcome.

Snap_Keep

06-30-2012, 01:29 PM

Goblin Guide and Wasteland/Stifle is a saucy nonbo

door

07-19-2012, 05:42 AM

Why did the deck suddenly become unpopular?
It seems to me it's a very good metagame choice right now.
I successfully played two tournaments in a row:

r1: 0-2 against reanimator (in both games had to mull into weak hands)
r2: 2-1 against burn
r3: 2-0 against esper blade
r4: 2-0 against burn
top4: 2-0 against esper blade (tempo)
finals: 2-0 against sneak attack

r1: 2-0 against sneak attack
r2: 2-0 against maverick
r3: 2-0 against merfolks
r4: 1-2 against esper blade (tempo) - I could win 2-0 but made a critical mistake, and in the third game mull to 5, keep 1 land and suck to a wasteland

My list:
4 Polluted delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Fire/Ice
1 Dismember

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce

SB:
3 Pyroblast
3 Hydroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Perish
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Comments: added 1 Snapcaster, because due to a small creature count in the deck I often need to flashback ponder/brainstorm to find a beater. On the other hand it helps against aggro match ups to flashback bolt/forked bolt to get an extra card advantage and clean the way. Against combo it always finds some disruption to flashback. Overall it's a pure CA which the deck lacks. Did not ever feel bad about him and Tombstalker in one deck.

Splitting forked bolt and fire/ice: I sacrificed some speed against aggro by turning 1 of the forked bolts into fireice for more versatility in other matches. In the first game against reanimator/sneak fireice can do things, but the deck can't afford to run 2 of them. Also do I need to tell that it taps batterskull, lands and other different stuff, being pitchable for FoW.

Went down to 3 stifles cause there are too many 1cc drops for the first turns: delvers, inquisitions, bolts and ponders. I can't afford to sit with a stifle and wait for opponents crack their fetches. The deck has to be aggro from the first turns. Every extra turn they have to topdeck an StP for our creature is crucial. I found stifles to be better in midgame by preventing them change the board position with a mystic/jace/etc.

In the SB IMHO there are 2 floating slots: hurkyl's recall and the 3rd hydroblast. I need them in my meta, cause we have a lot of burn and affinity recently.

Comments appreciated.

klaus

07-19-2012, 05:58 AM

.
IoKozilek should probably be Thoughtseize.

door

07-20-2012, 03:41 PM

Another positive tourny with the same build:
2-0 merfolks
2-0 MUD
2-1 UR painter
1-1 nic fit
I'd love to test it on a long distance. Perhaps not a bad choice for those, who are in Ghent.

apistat_commander

07-27-2012, 10:04 AM

Played this list in a small local last night:

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ghastly Demise

19
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland

SB:
3 Pyroblast
3 Sulfur Elemental
3 Submerge
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize

- The deck seems to really hinge on whether or not you draw Delver. If you draw Delver you get to be a tempo deck and smash face. If you don't draw a Delver you are stuck being a control deck in a tempo shell. Hitting the mana to cast Clique/Tombstalker can be challenging. The deck really needs another high-quality beater, but I don't think anything is available in these colors.

- 1 Badlands is pretty terrible. I would have always preferred another fetchland.

- Overall, the deck felt like a much less consistent version of RUG. Tombstalker and Clique are not adequate replacements for Goyf/Goose. Being able to cast a cheap threat and protect it is one of the strongest parts of RUG. I felt that I was never able to do that.

Edit: To clarify the above, the deck is really great at generating tempo, but not necessarily capitalizing on it. I can Stifle, Daze, and Waste my opponent into oblivion, but in doing so I would rarely have the mana/resources necessary to cast Clique/Tombstalker. It is only when I had Delver did the plan work particularly well. I could see taking the deck in a more aggressive direction, but then you become a bad version of UR delver. If you stick with the Tempo plan you are just a worse RUG/BUG because you lack access to Goyf.

wcm8

07-27-2012, 11:00 AM

The only option I can think of right now is Jace's Phantasm. With this you'd probably want to play some number of Thought Scour, and possibly also consider running an Umezawa's Jitte or two in the maindeck.

A possible list:

19 Lands (no Badlands, agreed here, possibly a basic Island)
4 Delver
4 Phantasm
3 Tombstalker (possibly better as just 2, add in another Fire//Ice maybe)
1 Jitte
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire//Ice
3 Thought Scour

Another option I would consider is fitting in the Temporal Mastery setup. Here's a potential list:

19 Lands
4 Delver
4 Phantasm
2 Tombstalker
1 Jitte
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Portent
4 Temporal Mastery
4 FoW
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
2 Thought Scour

What I am noticing though is that Red is being under-utilized aside from Bolts and the SB options. It may be possible to just play a straight U/B tempo deck with the options we have available, giving us a bit more resiliency to Wasteland.

apistat_commander

07-27-2012, 02:45 PM

Brick Novax

08-02-2012, 05:34 PM

Success once again at a small local 3 round tournament.
Round 1 vs. RUG Delver 2-1
Round 2 vs. Maverick 2-1
Round 3 vs. RUG Delver 2-1

Goblin Guide is the star of the show game one until Tombstalker shows up. Game 2-3 the board options seal the deal for victory.

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island

4 Goblin Guide
4 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Ponder

Sideboard
3 Perish
3 Pyroclasm
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Thoughtsieze
3 Massacre

Piceli89

08-02-2012, 05:58 PM

kiblast

08-02-2012, 06:40 PM

Goblin Guide with Stifle and Wasteland: new hot tech in town for tempo decks. You destroy 'em mana, you give 'em mana back.

It's because he usually stifles the Guide trigger...:eyebrow:

Brick Novax

08-02-2012, 09:57 PM

Your so smart and wise. People must call you Mister Wisdom.

Yes, it's a terrible nonbo. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. As someone posted earlier said "The deck seems to really hinge on whether you draw delver..." I tried to take Goblin Guide out and ran the V-click lists that have been posted. No success.... unless I drew delver.

whiley85

08-03-2012, 06:12 AM

Guide doesn't give mana back! He gives you the card after the land you would draw anyway... BIG difference!

frogger42

08-03-2012, 03:04 PM

None of these things solve the inherent problem of creature quality. Playing mill to make Jace's Phantasm better is pretty terrible. What the deck really needs is a quality beater in Red or Black. That would totally push it over the top. The deck is right on the edge now, it just needs another good creature to make it a house.

Totally right. RUG runs 4x Goyfs, and can play them all with 2 mana. You can run 3-4 Stalkers but you'll have to be lucky (or play a really long game... so much for tempo) to drop two of them. RUG's strategy just seems much more consistent and better honed for the quick victories it's looking to seal.
Also the best card in the deck - Snuff Out, the best tempo card in the format - seems borderline awful in a meta where 1/3-1/2 competitive decks run lots of reach. Mrg.

door

08-03-2012, 03:10 PM

Meanwhile slight update to my list:

+2 Spellstutter Sprite
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Daze

Sprites partly solve the problem of low creature count as well as raise CA. In the late game they are much better than daze being able to counter relevant cantrips and removal. 2 Cliques are often too much as the deck usually operates on 2 lands. Overall they feel very good in this deck.
What do you think about adding 1 or 2 bitterblossom? Perhaps instead of 1 snapcaster and 1 discard/clique.

List just for reference:
4 Polluted delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Fire/Ice
1 Dismember

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce

kingsey

09-01-2012, 10:46 PM

Is anyone still playing this?

I think it has a great match up against most the meta

With perish in SB and REB

Snap_Keep

09-02-2012, 01:35 AM

I'm playing Grixis Tempo

I play a very conventional list, it's much like the other lists posted. I play Cliques, 'Stalkers and Delvers as my creature base. I play the with Stifles, Ponders and then all of the other super obvious cards.

Stalker is super good against Tempo and random decks but it's not as good against Stoneblade decks because StP can be good against this deck. I play x3 Spell Pierce but I still feel sort of threat light. If people are interested I can post my full list and SB...

How do the others playing Grixis feel about the Stoneblade/Esperblade MU? I feel like they play so many basics that the Stifle/Waste plan isn't as effective as it could be, plus Miracles is pretty favoured in my experience... Any advice or perspective on these MUs?

Grizzly_Bear

09-26-2012, 05:14 AM

Low-activity thread, but I'll post anyway...

I've felt that 9 creatures are on the low side as well. Acting as another beater, has Oona's Prowler been considered?

nevilshute

09-28-2012, 05:46 AM

So, I'm still not a terribly experienced player and as such wasn't aware of this deck. And so, when I was tinkering with a deck myself I thought yay, I've come up with something great! Turns out it's very, very similar to Team Grixis... go figure :)

Anyway, here is an excerpt from my post on the deck:

So, I've been testing a deck for a while now, proxied, and have decided to start putting it together for real. Will have to wait for RtR as I need two copies of a card from there, but will get to that.

Here's the list I'm currently testing:

Creatures:

4x Delver of Secrets
3x Dark Confidant
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Grim Lavamancer
2x Nivmagus Elemental

Spells:

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Stifle
2x Flusterstorm
2x Gigadrowse
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek

Lands:

4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
1x Island

Sideboard:
1x Stifle
2x Perish
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Misdirection
3x Pyroblast
1x Wipe Away
1x Gilded Drake

The Nivmagus Elemental adds some volatility to the deck. It can attack as a 1/2 and once they have decided to not block it can grow tremendously with just one or two spells with either storm or replicate.

I have been testing the deck on a couple of occasions with my playgroup against a variety of different decks and I like what I'm seeing. It's quite resilient and can squeeze out wins when looking completely out.

Would love to hear some other people's thoughts on :)

I'm really enjoying the deck so far, and the Nivmagus Elemental is awesome. My initial plan was to play 4 which quickly become clear was over zealous. 2 seems to be right. It has great synergy with Gigadrowse and Flusterstorm and fits in nicely with Bob. Drop one of them mid- to late game and it can often kill once it untaps with one of either Gigadrowse and/or Flusterstorm.

kingsey

10-14-2012, 11:36 PM

Kl'rt

10-15-2012, 01:12 AM

SO with RUg delver being so sucessfull. What do you think this deck or color combo lacks that RUG really shines with? I think tombstalker is better then goyf and the discard really helps against any deck.

The biggest difference in my opinion is Nimble Mongoose. With the Tundra decks, Miracle Control and Stoneblade infesting the meta, one edge Canadian Thresh has against them is the shroud of the Mongoose. The control decks have very limited ways to deal with the little guy.

It also doesn't help that Grixis has fewer creatures, as mentioned in the above posts, which is pretty tough against the UW decks that have so much removal.

catmint

10-15-2012, 03:07 AM

It is of course nimble mongoose with shroud. But Tombstalker is also a liability. Goyf just costing 1G is so much cheaper than double color (not blue) + you likely cannot play tombstalker in turn 2 to 4. So Tombstalker is better when it hits the board, but it beeing a lot more expensive than Goyf makes Goyf the better creature overall.

nevilshute

10-15-2012, 09:04 AM

I don't like comparing goyf with Tombstalker for a variety of reasons. One being he can't hit the table as early as Goyf. Two being that if he gets bounced by, say, Jace he is unlikely to get played again.

On the question of where we struggle as compared to RUG delver, then like others have mentioned, the lack of a 3/3 shrouder for 1 mana hurts. I like to think that we can make up for that with what black offers both our MD and our SB. I LOVE having access to Perish and Dread of Night in my SB. Also Dark Confidants and Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek/Duress in MD is punishing to a lot of decks.

I also play 2 copies of the Nivmagus Elemental accompanied by 2x Flusterstorm and 2x Gigadrowse which actually offer the deck some mid- to late game muscle.

kingsey

10-15-2012, 04:28 PM

I think goyf is very easy to stall out where as stalker flys over and beats face.

I've been testing forked bolt vs fire/ice. Who here is running bolt and who picked fire/ice. I like the fact fire is a instant and has a second option.

kingsey

10-20-2012, 10:42 PM

Played a few games and as of right now fire and ice is the flex spot card.

What would you bring as a sideboard to a open meta if you were going to a tourny tomorrow?

nevilshute

10-21-2012, 03:19 PM

Went to a yearly tournament with some bigger prizes. There was a relatively small turn out considering this. 37 had shown up. There were prizes to top 8 consisting of duals and fetches. I ended up going 4-2 missing out on the top 8, finishing 10th.

I had made some slight changes, deciding to completely drop the 2 Snapcaster Mages replacing them with 1 Nivmagus Elemental and 1 Stifle.

Here's a walk through of the match ups:

Vs BUG tempo (or Team America if you prefer) LOSE 1-2:
Won G1 getting an early foothold by getting a Bob and a lavamancer down early on. G2 he took, getting a lot of removal to take care of my threats and finally dropping a Tombstalker for which I had no answer. G3 was a suckerpunch and I lost everything in one fell swoop. I started to get a slight hold of the game. Getting a Delver down turn 1 and flipping it turn 2. By turn 4 or 5 my Delver had tucked him down to around 10 life, I had 1 Underground Sea and 2 fetchlands on the board. I had 2 Daze, a Flusterstorm and a Lightning Bolt in hand having just Pondered I passed the turn. He draws, Wastelands my tapped Underground Sea and Ghastly Demises my flipped Delver, he then passes the turn. I fetch in response, which he Stifles, I crack my second fetch and he has another damn Stifle. I never recover.

Vs UW Stax WIN 2-0:
Bad match up for him, I take G1 with relative ease, getting good mileage out of an early Thoughtseize and getting enough action on the board to finish him. G2 he starts with a turn one Mox Diamond, Ancient Tomb into Trinisphere. Luckily I've kept a hand with 3 lands and during my next five turns I draw 2 more lands ensuring I make every land drop. I also manage to Wasteland his Ancient Tomb. I get a Delver down which flips on the second atttempt. Eventually he Intuitions after 2x Humility and 1x Crucible of Worlds. I'm packing a Surgical Extraction and gives him one Humility. He passes the turn and I untap and play the extraction targeting Humility. He doesn't recover and I take it.

Vs Merfolk WIN 2-0:
I'm on the play in G1. We both mulligan once and keep hands of six. I lead out with a Thoughtseize. It resolves and I see a Force of Will, Merrow Reejerey, Cursecatcher, Ponder, Island, Wasteland. Having a strong hand of Delver, Force, Daze and 2 lands I take his Force and end up taking it home with a flipped delver. G2 he mulls to 5 and, on the draw, I open with another Thoughtseize. He doesn't recover and I take it home.

Vs Sneak and Show LOSE 0-2:
G1 I mull to 5 keeping a hand that's Delver, Delver, Lavamancer, Gigadrowse, U. Sea. I decide to keep and end up drawing another Delver having 3 flipped Delvers by turn 5 or 6. By this time, however, has had all the time he needs to set up a Show and Tell -> Griselbrand. He's at 13 or so life. I never recover. Between G1 and G2 I struggle a bit to sideboard. I don't really have anything that specifically targets this match up. I side in 2 Pyroblast and 3 Surgical Extraction. I lead out with the following hand: U. Sea, fetchland, wasteland, Force, Stifle, Inquisition, Surgical. I play the U. Sea and cast Inquisition. He thinks about it for a long time finally deciding to Force it, pitching an Intuition. I get excited, wanting to see a SnT and I force back pitching my stifle. Inquisition resolves. I see: fetchland, sneak attack, brainstorm, intuition and pyroclasm. It's between brainstorm and intuition and I decide on brainstorm, duly extracting it afterwards. I feel somewhat underwhelmed as I'm now left with 1 land on the board and 2 in my hand holding nothing else. I pass the turn. During my subsequent draws I don't really get anything. During his turn 1 or 2 he draws another fetchland and doesn't miss a land drop. He fetches for mountain, island to play around the wasteland I'm holding. He keeps getting mana when he needs it and is finally able to go off.

Vs BUG tempo (Team America) WIN 2-1:
Very close. I win G1 and G3 very narrowly, losing G2 quite clearly. In both my victorious games I win with Bob on the table potentially killing me the round I win, but dodge the Force of Will bullets on both occasions.

Vs Monoblue Faeries WIN 2-1:
This felt like a fairly decent match up for us. The pilot seemed like a very skillful, tight player but in all the games he had no play but 1 Ponder for his first three turns. The game he won I misplayed, taking a Jace with my turn 1 Thoughtseize when I should have taken Vedalken Shackles... I was holding a Lightning Bolt and a Grim Lavamancer. He ended up winning with 2 V. Shackles on the board, but the first one (the one I didn't take) really won it for him, taking my Bob, getting an extra cards for 4-5 turns. I must admit that I hadn't played with or against V. Shackles before and I read it, but didn't really fathom how exactly it would be able to screw me up. I got him quite comfortably in the other games.

All in all I felt like the deck did well enough. I'm certain now I'm going to yank out the singleton Gigadrowse. It doesn't do enough, it's always the first cards that I side out and the Nivmagus Elementals are quite good even without it. Will replace it with either a 4th bolt or perhaps a singleton Fire/Ice. My SB did okay, except against the Sneak and Show where I felt like I had too little to work with. Possible answers to this might be a singleton Gilded Drake and 1 or 2 Pithing Needles. I ended up bringing 2x Pyroclasm for any Goblins, Merfolk or Lingering Souls match ups. Didn't really face much of this but feel like it's a good choice because I had gotten destroyed by my friend in play testing, playing Dead Guy Ale the other night. I had NO way to answer his recurring token machines in Elspeth, Sorin and most of all Lingering Souls so here the Pyroclasms should do well. Just need to be conservative with our own drops.

Here's the list I played:
Creatures:
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Dark Confidant
3x Nivmagus Elemental
2x Grim Lavamancer

Spells:
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
2x Flusterstorm
1x Spell Pierce
3x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
1x Gigadrowse
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Lightning Bolt

Lands:
3x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
4x Wasteland

Sideboard:
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Submerge
2x Perish
2x Dread of Night
2x Pyroblast
2x Pyroclasm
1x Shattering Spree

ceustice

10-23-2012, 12:49 PM

I've been playing with this deck and I really feel like it needs to run 20 lands and on top of that 4 thought scour may be all this deck is really looking for. Thought Scour was added to RUG to turn the Goose loose more consistently, I think the same thing can be done to make Tombstalker into a reliable threat that we could drop early and often.

wcm8

12-04-2012, 11:50 AM

I modified the opening post to reflect what I think is currently the best use of Grixis: as a streamlined anti-combo monstrosity. Obviously the deck can be constructed to be more middling and address other matchups in the main, but I feel that RUG and BUG do a better job of that... so why not push the deck to its extreme? I suppose if the next few sets throw some more options for R/B/U I'd reconsider.

fogxanic

12-27-2012, 07:11 AM

Nice I just found this topic after I made my deck. So here is my list: updated 11.1.13

Grixis tempo:

Creatures: 15

4x Dark Confidant
3x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

Spells: 26

4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
1x Fire // Ice
3x Force of Will
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Ponder
2x Stifle

Land: 19

1x Badlands
1x Bayou
1x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
3x Wasteland

Side: 15

2x Ancient Grudge
1x Force of Will
2x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Perish
2x Pyroblast
1x Rakdos Charm
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Sulfur Elemental
1x Umezawa's Jitte

I count this Grixis but I have some green mana sources as you can see for Deathrite Shaman and Ancient Grudge. Opinions?

somethingdotdotdot

01-03-2013, 04:57 AM

fogxanic

01-06-2013, 09:52 AM

I'm currently testing a more burn heavy version of grixis. I'm mainly just using the black for drs which act as extra lavamancers.

This is what I have so far--its been decent versus a lot of things. I decided to cut down on the counterspells a bit to make more room for burn spells. I could add in a couple more dazes to smooth things out. I'm also unsure about the mana base--I suppose if I cut the PoP, I could add in wastelands and put dazes in those slots. Up in the air about it right now.

This is my current list

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Lavamancer

2 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thunderous Wrath
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp

SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 3 Rakdos Charm
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Blood Moon

I tryed Lavamancer and Shaman in same deck and conclusion was that they didn't have enough fuel. But this might be different because more stuff going in graveyard. Also Snapcaster eats graveyard. I would add some fancy creatures like Vendilion Clique or Nivmagus Elemental. I wouldn't play basic mountain unless you have very back to basic heavy meta. Maybe some wastelands or Tropical Island/Taiga for enabling dr. shaman creature removal.

SirTylerGalt

01-06-2013, 11:35 AM

I'm currently testing U/R Delver Nivmagus, but I'm interested in the Grixis version.

Countersquall would be fun in this deck.

fogxanic

01-11-2013, 02:53 AM

I played at 19 player local legacy tournament two days ago 4-0 with my list witch is few posts up. Matchups were: UWR Miracles 2-0, TES 2-1, Jund Spanish Inquisition 2-1, manaless dredge 2-1. Deck seems very solid and versatile maybe I try again tomorrow don't know yet.

Again played with this build today at 18 player tournament. 5 rounds I was 3-1-1 draw was very well count to get in top 4. To win whole tournament. Matchups were BUG 2-0, Reanimator 2-1, TES 1-2, UWR Miracles 2-1, Jund Zombies Draw 1-1-1. Top 4: Jund Zombies 2-1, TES 2-0.

My third tournament behind now placing 2nd. Mus were mono blue aggro 2-0, uwr miracles 1-1-1, esper stoneblade 2-1, big red 2-1.

4th tournament played and this sucked very much. 1-3-1. Ill do some changes for next.

Quinta

02-21-2013, 07:00 AM

Hi, I'm actually playing this list:

Main Deck
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Dismember
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Forked Bolt
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
1 Badlands
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Submerge
2 Energy Flux
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 leyline of the void

I played a local 21 players torunament last weekend with a 4-1 result: aluren 2-0, Ant 0-2, high tide 2-0, eva green 2-0 and combo elves 2-1.
The deck is very consistent and in a meta with a lot of combo is a good choice. It's the same game plan than canadian but changing tarmogoyf with tombstalker, more difficult to kill and with evasion, and some discard. Snapcaster mage maybe can be a good choice to add, but i need to test it.

wcm8

02-26-2013, 02:33 PM

I updated the opening post.

Updated list 02/26/2013:

19 Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

16 Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman

25 Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

Sideboad
2 REB
2 Spell Pierce
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Darkblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction

edit: It may be correct to cut a Snapcaster for another spell of some sort. Maybe also fit in a Spell Snare or two.

wcm8

05-24-2013, 11:05 AM

Pondering the inclusion of Young Pyromancer... I think he might be better than Snapcaster in this sort of deck, because it generates more offensive potential without being as awkward to play with Deathrite Shaman or requiring access to 3 mana.

19 Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

15 Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman

26 Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize (or, potentially Cabal Therapy or Hymn to Tourach)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Hard Removal (GftT, Diabolic Edict, maybe even Ghastly Demise or Dismember or potentially Abrupt Decay)

Sideboard would be something like this to start with:
3 REB/Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Jitte (especially now with a ton of potential bodies, as well as changes to legend rule)
2 Surgical Extraction / Nihil Spellbomb
2 Engineered Plague
2 Winter Orb
1 Life from the Loam
2 Diabolic Edict // Liliana otV // some other removal that kills big creatures

Why Grixis:
+ much easier time dealing with Jace than BUG Tempo
+ further improved combo matchup over RUG (counters AND discard AND Confidant. Pyromancer quickly becomes a potent threat like Goyf)
+ biggest array of sideboard options
+ more resilient mana than RUG (19th land and DRS)
+ doesn't get hosed by graveyard hate as hard as RUG
+ access to REB/Pyroblast, the best sideboard card in Legacy
+ Shaman is the best one-drop creature in Legacy imho
+ Pyromancer needs more real testing, but I think this card might end up being a true powerhouse

Why not:
- dealing with huge creatures... this can be addressed with the sideboard or perhaps altering maindeck removal slots
- no Mongoose vs. control. However, Dark Confidant is a huge bomb here if you can get him to stick
- no Tombstalker vs. creature decks. He could be added in though. The creature base could definitely be adjusted
- no Tarmgoyf. Alright. He's good. I admit. But he's quickly becoming more and more overshadowed. Against an empty board, Pyromancer becomes just as dangerous, and against a stalled board the tokens are potentially better.
- Plague seems to be the best 'sweeper' available since red options would be bad for us as well (maybe Electrickery is an option?)

Poron

05-24-2013, 11:36 AM

I don't understand why these lists don't pack some Jittes or equipment of any kind..
you are full of cheap (even flashy) creatures...

now with young pyromancer, even more.
Basilisk Collar + Grim Lavamancer.. well you know that

fogxanic

05-25-2013, 04:10 PM

I don't think equipments are good for this kind of decks. It eats all mana and denies our countering ability (no daze, force). My version have very hard times to get for 4 mana for jace. I think young pyromancer is worth of testing. Also want to say that atleast second best sideboard card which red allows to this deck after pyroblast/reb is rakdos charm. It have won me many games.

Creatures: 14

4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

Spells: 27

1x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
2x Counterspell
3x Daze
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Fire // Ice
3x Force of Will
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Ponder
1x Spell Pierce

Land: 19

1x Badlands
1x Bayou
1x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
3x Wasteland

Side: 15

1x Abrupt Decay
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
1x Golgari Charm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Life from the Loam
2x Perish
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Pyroblast
2x Rakdos Charm
2x Red Elemental Blast

I have very hard times against rug (tarmo, mongoose), and sometimes problems with the rocks too big creatures for lightning bolt (scavenging ooze even eats everything that shaman is trying to eat) also RDW gives problems and painter's grindstone with moon effects. Anyone think its good for play some basic lands?

Today I was in 8-man trial tournament single elimination. Beat team america and lost for omni/halls (Inquisition is not very good against this I only saw his hand with dreamhalls, enter the infinite and omniscience and next turn he cast dreamhalls gg).

zulander

05-29-2013, 01:50 AM

So here's an absurd list I've been testing with the new Young Pyromancer (1R 2/1 whenever you play an Instant/Sorcery put a 1/1 into play)

Creatures: 14
4 Delver
4 Young Pyro
3 Snapcaster
1 V. Clique
2 Tombstalker

Disruption: 20
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Bolt
4 Hymn

Draw: 8
4 BS
4 Ponder

Lands: 18
4 Waste
8 fetches
6 Duals

Qweerios

06-05-2013, 03:07 PM

I really wonder why Grixis tempo isn't as popular as Team America or RUG?

It seems to me like this color combination offers the most reach and the hardest disruption available. Turning Mongoose into Deathrite and Goyf into Clique/Tombstalker feels like a winning move. Black also offers superior sideboard options than green by a mile.

As SirTylerGalt pointed out, Countersquall is very appealing for this kind of strategy as it combines disruption with reach at a reasonable cost. However, I am not entirely convinced that it is better than Spell Pierce. Countersquall is definitely better at countering small relevant spells like StP, Bolts, Terminus, while Pierce tends to be easier to combine with other spells overall.

Here is a Grixis Tempo list that I have been using with success:

Creatures (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Tombstalker

Spells (29)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire // Ice
2 Countersquall / Spell Pierce
1 Dismember / Terminate

Lands (19)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Envelop / Flusterstorm
2 Snuff Out
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Fire Covenant / Terminate
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sulfur Elemental / Dread of Night

I am tempted to add a 3rd Clique when the new ruling comes to be, Clique is simply one of the best card you can couple with 1-2 cmc disruption like Countersquall, Stifle, Fire//Ice, Bolts and Deathrite activations. It adds a dimension to the inventory of instant speed disruption available.

I elected to include Jace in the SB for the grindy control matchups, especialy those packing Rest in Peace.

Any opinions on how I should build this deck?