View Full Version : Cutting opponent's deck
Brushwagg
10-15-2011, 12:55 PM
Ok I'm just wondering what is considered an illegal cut? In the last local I played in my opponent only picked up half of my deck and shuffled the half. Then put it back on top of the half he left on the table. Is this legal? I wasn't going to make a big stink about it in a local, but I would like to know.
This is a legal "cut". Your opponent may shuffle or cut your deck in any manner provided it's not stacking your deck. If it's a shuffle it must still be a sufficiently random shuffle (i.e., no pile shuffling).
If you suspect any foul play, call a judge to evaluate the situation.
I have a question to your answer: am I allowed to pileshuffle my opponent's deck? I would guess so because he has to present a randomized deck to me. Assuming he does, I can do nothing (leaving it random) or a pile-shuffle would not "add/increase randomization" (not sure what this would be exactly mathematical?) but also not decrease randomization. Hence, it should be as fine as cutting or not doing anything. The only argument against it would be that is takes more time than cutting and could be considered slow play or similarly....
Malchar
10-16-2011, 01:14 PM
The following steps must be performed before each game begins:
1. Players may exchange cards in their decks for cards in their sideboards (only after the first or subsequent game of the match and not for games that are restarted).
2. Players shuffle their decks. Steps 1 and 2 may be repeated.
3. Players present their decks to their opponents for additional shuffling. The sideboard (if any) is also presented at this time.
4. After the first or subsequent game of the match, the relevant player must decide whether to play first or second at this point, if he or she hasn't done so already. If that player doesn't choose before looking at the cards in his or her hand, then he or she is considered to have chosen to play first.
5. Players shuffle their opponents’ decks.
6. Each player draws seven cards. Optionally, these cards may be dealt face down on the table.
7. Each player, in turn order, decides whether to mulligan. (Rules on mulligans can be found in the Magic Comprehensive rules, Section 103.4)
Players may not use more than three minutes to perform steps 1 through 3. Steps 4 through 7 must be performed in a timely manner.
Decks must be randomized at the start of every game and whenever an instruction requires it. Randomization is defined as bringing the deck to a state where no player can have any information regarding the order or position of cards in any portion of the deck. Pile shuffling alone is not sufficiently random.
Once the deck is randomized, it must be presented to an opponent. By this action, players state that their decks are legal and randomized. The opponent may then shuffle it additionally. Cards and sleeves must not be in danger of being damaged during this process. If the opponent does not believe the player made a reasonable effort to randomize his or her deck, the opponent must notify a judge. Players may request to have a judge shuffle their cards rather than the opponent; this request will be honored only at a judge’s discretion.
If a player has had the opportunity to see any of the card faces of the deck being shuffled, the deck is no longer considered randomized and must be randomized again.
At Competitive and Professional REL tournaments, players are required to shuffle their opponents’ decks after their owners have shuffled them. The Head Judge can require this at Regular REL tournaments as well.
You get like 3 minutes to shuffle decks at REL tournaments, so you probably have enough time to pile shuffle or whatever else you want to do. Note that pile shuffling alone is not sufficiently random.
Esper3k
10-16-2011, 02:39 PM
Also to note, while at Competitive+ REL, you are required to shuffle your opponent's deck, you'll never really get in trouble for not doing so.
The reasoning is that you're only hurting yourself by not doing it, so they really don't care that much about it.
Kich867
10-16-2011, 03:07 PM
Just out of curiosity, while cutting your opponent's deck, are you allowed to see the card at the bottom of your cut? I've noticed people in my local shop, during tournaments, cut it and while they try to do so subtly they do look at the bottom card. Is this legal? Something about that seems sketchy to me and it's kind of bothersome.
Malchar
10-16-2011, 04:00 PM
Just out of curiosity, while cutting your opponent's deck, are you allowed to see the card at the bottom of your cut? I've noticed people in my local shop, during tournaments, cut it and while they try to do so subtly they do look at the bottom card. Is this legal? Something about that seems sketchy to me and it's kind of bothersome.
If a player has had the opportunity to see any of the card faces of the deck being shuffled, the deck is no longer considered randomized and must be randomized again.
Also, based on common sense, it's obviously against the rules for them to look at any cards in your deck before the game starts. If you want an actual rules quote, then check this out:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/rules
Brushwagg
10-16-2011, 07:47 PM
Nice to see the rules aren't real clear on shuffling only half of an opponent's deck. It just seems wrong.
marit
10-16-2011, 08:17 PM
Nice to see the rules aren't real clear on shuffling only half of an opponent's deck. It just seems wrong.
I don't really see what's wrong with this. It's still randomizing the cards you're going to draw.
kombatkiwi
10-16-2011, 09:03 PM
It would obviously seem wrong if they like fatesealed some of your cards to the bottom with Jace or something else along those lines but seeing as you already shuffled the deck yourself it isn't a problem.
Even if it 'feels' wrong, can you think of anything that actually is wrong with it? Similar situations include the opponent cutting only the top card to the bottom which seem dodgy but what kind of advantage can your opponent be getting out of it?
Offler
10-17-2011, 05:26 PM
If you wish to find single card in a deck it must be taken out of pile before reshuffled back. Easy to make before game, harder to make during the play but possible.
Always watch hands of your opponent. If you lost sight of his hands or his cards something is wrong. If he just shuffled only half of your library make sure he had no opportunity to recognize your cards - especially if you uncovered bottom of library unintentionally.
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