Foster Flames

[optml]

I thought of an idea for a deck and after some searching it doesn't appear to be listed anywhere (which of course may just mean it's rubbish).

Any thoughts and responses though would be good either way.

The deck revolves around the card: Foster. This normally underpowered enchantment is actually a very easy way to flip your entire library into your graveyard if you don't run any creatures.

My thoughts are to use this, flip my library, and then cast Past in Flames (everyones favourite new red spell) and win from there.

The combo works something like this:

With Foster in play; cast spawning breath, sacrifice the token, flip your whole library over, cast past in flames, win.

The deck uses mana producing instants and sorceries, then a grapeshot for a big win.

The sample decklist is:

4x Foster
4x Spawning Breath
2x Brood Birthing
1x Grapeshot
2x Past in Flame

// Other
4x Gamble
3x Pact of Negation
1x Ancient Grudge
1x City of Solitude
3x Burning Wish
2x Gitaxian Probe
1x Living wish

// Mana
4x Manamorphose
4x Pyretic Ritual
2x Seething Song
4x Rite of Flame
2x Desperate Ritual

//Lands

16 Red / Green Lands (some blue fixing for Lab Maniac. Maybe a few City of Brass equivalents)

// SB
1x Brood Birthing
1x Past in Flames
1x Magnivore
1x Living Wish
1x Laboratory Maniac
10x more...

To explain some of the choices. Lab Maniac is available as a living wish target that is able to win on the spot with a flashbacked gitaxian probe. Magnivore is the alternative win, assuming they are untargetable (so grapeshot is nulified) or the are able to remove your gitaxian probes etc. Just takes up the one slot and is also wishable.

The idea is produce a lot of mana, cast spells from the graveyard, and gloat that you are able to win of such a rubbish enchantment.

Gamble is there to search for said enchantment. Unless you discard the enchantment, it shouldn't matter as you will be recasting all your mana producing spells off Past in Flames.

I was also toying with the idea of, for G2 & G3 when they bring in copious graveyard hate, to use wheel of sun and moon, reorder my whole deck (as they never hit the graveyard so it can't be removed) and then using a charbelcher for the win.) It is slower, but I think that if they are cramming graveyard hate, it is a nice alternative.

I think it's got some potential, as it's tricky to interact with as it doesn't use creatures for the combo (it's sacrificed so difficult for them) and has a number of win-cons depending on the situation.

It may not be Tier 1 *cough* but it would be nice to have it become a solid Tier 2.

Thoughts?
Musings?
Ponderings?

Looking forward to your comments.

[catmint]

I am not a combo player, but you need to have 2ww for the entchantment + something else to make it work... sounds easier to just go 3bb for ad nauseam and have an easier win from there...

[optml]

2GG actually, which is why the deck runs green (and manamorphose).
The reason I think it's got potential is that it is a 2 card combo (which is pretty feasible in Legacy), that doesn't need creatures to win (StP, Lightning Bolt, Grim Lavamancer, PtE, etc., Say goodbye!).

Adnauseum is actually a poor example, as it also requires 2 cards (they only run 1 main, so infernal tutor is used).
Therefore my combo:
2GG + 1R = 6cc

Adnauseum
3BB + 1B = 7cc

I'm not saying it's a better combo than ANT, but your reference could definitely have been better...

Any other thoughts guys?

[Lemnear]

Or you cast your rituals, play Brainfreeze on yourself, mill your library, flashback milled Past in Flames, replay your graveyard, cast Brainfreeze on your opponent and let them draw dead.

Sorry but I'm 100% sure, this is plain better than your idea in all instances.

Moreover your example of mana costs is plain wrong to prove anything: your 2 card combo mills your deck but doesn't Net you mana to play PiF or any other kill-condition. A resolved Ad Nauseam delivers the mana AND the kill.

P.S. They run 2 Ad Nauseam

[Grollub]

Interesting deck to say the least! I love all the creativity surrounding Past in Flames, this card is just waiting to be busted. :-D

Another possible kill condition could be Empty the Warrens and Last-Ditch Effort, this should allow you to use less rituals (since you need less storm) to add additionally protection -- red blasts for instance, if you get to mill your library you should have access to more than enough countermagic to make up for the 'safety' of Grapeshot.

As a sidebonus you'd have the lucky ritual heavy + Warrens draw for an easy win.

[Lemnear]

if you get to mill your library you should have access to more than enough countermagic to make up for the 'safety' of Grapeshot.

As a sidebonus you'd have the lucky ritual heavy + Warrens draw for an easy win.

1. Counters in graveyard don't matter if you opponent is countering your flashback PiF or remove your grave in response. This isn't even discussable as an advantage.

2. They counter your critical ritual and you end dead with warrens in hand. Reality check.

[optml]

@Lemnear
That's some constructive criticism right there, thanks. Definitely more useful than; "Play ANT" which was the only previous comment.

Yeah, the high cost of flashing back PiF does seem to be an issue. But the brainfreeze yourself seems to provide a similar issue; admittedly it costs 1 mana less than foster, and doesn't need the eldrazi token.

Potentially in the long run I'll prefer to just go U/R, freeze version, but I thought it interesting to try R/G, and see what creative juices could get flowing.

Also, just out of interest, how does the brainstorm deck win if the player can't be targetted (ivory mask or the equivalent?) Perhaps Lab Maniac too?

[Poron]

MD: +1 Burning Wish

SB: +1 Last Chance

I don't understand why Freeze storm decks are so valued.
1 single Progenitus/Emrakul shuts down the combo to a considerable extent...

[Lemnear]

Brainfreeze is cheaper than Foster and is engine and kill in one card providing more space for good cards. Blue makes this deck more consistent via brainstorm and ponder which is essential.

The target issue: run a chain of vapor in the Mainboard. You need a plan against Teeg, cannonist etc. anyway. Check out SCG lastest Legacy tournament (Nashville I guess?); Drew ran such a Brainfreeze/PiF deck (which I had the idea from).

[Lemnear]

MD: +1 Burning Wish

SB: +1 Last Chance

I don't understand why Freeze storm decks are so valued.
1 single Progenitus/Emrakul shuts down the combo to a considerable extent...

That's why you run a single Grapeshot too

[optml]

Well, as Mike Flores says; "Never play a bad 'something else'". I'm not convinced that this Foster version is a bad freeze/storm deck yet, so I'm going to plod on.

With that in mind, I'm open to suggestions for any improvements. Perhaps more reliable 'pre-foster' mana producers (grim monolith springs to mind) or using green for mana fixing (rampant / explosive vegetation).

Other ideas that could be interesting is to use cheap / free creatures to get the storm count up. (tinder wall, wild cantor). With a tinder wall could activate foster off an eldrazi token, with 1 green floating (and one colorless from the eldrazi). You would get Tinder. Cast it with the mana, sacrifice it to itself, using the colorless eldrazi mana to activate foster. Just doing that would increase the storm count by 1 and the mana by 1, making it easier to cast PiF.

Ok, it's not mind-blowing, but I'm not great at brewing, and I've not spent long on this as an idea. I think it has potential.

Thoughts?

[Grollub]

1. Counters in graveyard don't matter if you opponent is countering your flashback PiF or remove your grave in response. This isn't even discussable as an advantage.

If you have blasts in your graveyard, you obviously have blasts in your main. How is it not an advantage to actually be able to power your engine through a counterwall, and as an additional bonus making your win condition not fold to the random Stifle?



2. They counter your critical ritual and you end dead with warrens in hand. Reality check.
Because you'd just try it blindly against a blue deck? Jesus.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

While the idea of using the free creatures is interesting and all, wouldn't you risk getting a Tinder->Tinder sequence where you run out of green mana?

[Lemnear]

You mentioned counters in the grave and this is not an argument. Sure does REB have it's advantages but Pact of Negation is plain better for the combo being free (even flashbacked) especially if you have to pay 5 for PiF and want mana flood to combo.

Warrens and blue: so you want to slow-roll against blue or what? Warrens is only good if casted fast. The longer you wait the worse it gets. You have to choose: Balls to the walls or wait for the Blue player to sculpt his hand

[Kich867]

Where exactly are you getting the mana to even start the combo? You need to play the 4 mana enchantment that is prone to counter + removal, then you need to play a 2 mana spell, then you need to pay 1 which is albeit paid for by the creature, then you need to have at least 1 more mana to start up your rite of flames. Then you need to pay 4-5 mana to PiF.

This combo requires 11-12 mana to go off in one turn. Where is that coming from? If it's red rituals, your deck pretty much auto-loses to discard.

If you can play foster, then untap and go off, that's awesome, but it would be more ideal if you could do all of this in one turn, which ANT does, for less than half the mana. That's not to say, go play ANT, but recognize that this deck requires anywhere from 2-3 turns to realistically go off unless you have a stacked hand and you can generate that mana by yourself, which is unlikely because red rituals outside of like, rite of flame, all suck--generating 1-2 mana, whereas black rituals generate 2-3 mana for less mana invested.

And on top of that you play no relevant protection--pact of negation won't stop a counter on Foster unless you intend to then also produce the remaining 7-8 mana with something that I don't think the deck can reliably produce without some sort of mass drawing that it doesn't have. Force of Will is way more ideal for a slower combo except you run 2 blue spells so you can't use that; you have no realistic free counter options that don't auto-lose you the game.

Why are you suggesting using cheap creatures to produce the mana pre-foster, it's your deck, doesn't that seem fundamentally invalid of an idea given the deck is intended to function creaturelessly--Foster doesn't work if you have any creatures in the deck...

Has this been tested at all? Have you ever reliably produced 11-12 mana in one turn on turn 3-4 even gold fishing? For instance, Dragonstorm is a similar combo deck that requires 9 mana to go off around turn 3-4, it's still hard to do reliably without some assistance like lotus bloom's.

It's a cool idea, but R/G can't protect itself or disrupt the opponent, you're banking on them doing absolutely nothing to you for a very long time and the combo is unrealistically mana intensive for an effect other decks accomplish both earlier, easier, with protection, with disruption, and with tutors that don't randomly lose you that card.

It's a bit odd...to say you think the deck could be a solid tier 2 and in the same breath admit you didn't put much thought/testing into it.


2GG actually, which is why the deck runs green (and manamorphose).
The reason I think it's got potential is that it is a 2 card combo (which is pretty feasible in Legacy), that doesn't need creatures to win (StP, Lightning Bolt, Grim Lavamancer, PtE, etc., Say goodbye!).

Adnauseum is actually a poor example, as it also requires 2 cards (they only run 1 main, so infernal tutor is used).
Therefore my combo:
2GG + 1R = 6cc

Adnauseum
3BB + 1B = 7cc

I'm not saying it's a better combo than ANT, but your reference could definitely have been better...

Any other thoughts guys?

That's untrue--Your deck's combo is 3 cards: Foster, Spawning Breath, and Past in Flames. PIF is not free. 2GG + 1R + 3/4R = 6-7GGRR = 10-11 mana, + 1 to start a Rite of Flame, so 11-12 mana, 6-7GGRRR.

AdN:
3BB. Infernal Tutor is only used if you don't draw Tendrils, which, while unlikely, happens. Furthermore, in order to use IT, you combine it with a Lion's Eye Diamond to guarantee you find the Tendrils, this interaction actually nets you 1 mana (at least, given that you only use 1 lion's eye with your IT on the stack), so if you want to consider Infernal Tutor in the combo you should be removing 1 mana cost from ADN, not adding 2. 2BB. After you AdN for like 15-20 cards, the likelihood that you can't generate at least 4 mana and 10 storm is incredibly low, the deck is full of Lotus Petal's, Dark Ritual's, Cabal Rituals, etc. and you only need 10 storm at max to win.

So AdN is a fantastic example, it accomplishes your intention easier, with less mana, with protection, and with disruption, faster.

Furthermore, how are you casting Living Wish after you mill your library? If you somehow pull off 11-12 mana (depending on whether PIF is in hand or not) you must have had to tap your land which leaves you no source of green mana. If you Manamorphose, you lose the game because you can't draw. You can only produce red mana after you PIF unless you somehow manage to keep a green land untapped which seems highly improbable.

[thefreakaccident]

WoW, they're going to end up banning that past in flames card... It's yawgmoth's will for 1 more mana... Restricting it to instances and sorceries doesn't change much.

[Kich867]

WoW, they're going to end up banning that past in flames card... It's yawgmoth's will for 1 more mana... Restricting it to instances and sorceries doesn't change much.

Actually, it changes a lot. You can't recur artifacts with it; Lotus Petal and Lion's Eye Diamond, which would be the main source of usefulness from it. If you produce 7 mana with rituals, you then need to go down to 3 mana, and likely end up with about another 7 mana since you probably started with about 3 mana anyways.

Really, it's just a means of amplifying storm count in some decks or if your deck can do it sort of like this one, play everything from the graveyard exclusively as a means of playing exactly what you need, but so far I haven't seen a list that's functionally any better than an ANT list since it requires so much catering to and opens up additional means of hate (graveyard, which is a rampant sideboard option..).

[John Cox]

Brainfreeze is cheaper than Foster and is engine and kill in one card providing more space for good cards. Blue makes this deck more consistent via brainstorm and ponder which is essential.

The target issue: run a chain of vapor in the Mainboard. You need a plan against Teeg, cannonist etc. anyway. Check out SCG lastest Legacy tournament (Nashville I guess?); Drew ran such a Brainfreeze/PiF deck (which I had the idea from).

I've scoured SCG tournament data and can't for the life of me find this deck, or the Drew. The only "Drew" in the top 16 of any recent SCG event is Drew Idoux with Aluren. Do you have a link?

[Lemnear]

Mixed up Drew with Caleb. Here's his article he wrote afterwards:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-killing-myself-on-camera/

[Darkenslight]

WoW, they're going to end up banning that past in flames card... It's yawgmoth's will for 1 more mana... Restricting it to instances and sorceries doesn't change much.

Lion's Eye Diamond says hi.

[Poron]

accident is right.. it doesn't change that much. you manage to go high anyway in mana... and once there, Will and Flames are basically the same

[jlagrav]

Do you think this deck could use the 0 cost pacts to help up the storm count? If they win that turn they don't have to worry about the upkeep cost.