Need help with a Doomsday Piles

[[PMP]Krevvy]

So i have been thinking of a doomsday deck which uses doomsday and Laboratory Maniac to set up a pile that wins on the same turn you cast doomsday.

Reason why i want to make this possible is that using the emrakul option opens you up to wasteland as well as possibly getting shot down with a moat or other form of prison effect. Also means you aren't running the show and tell which can be a good and bad thing as they are dead without emrakul and don't always win when you have the two together. It is still possible that this may end up being worst but it is good to look into as it is a strong deck in vintage.

Problem is i can't think of any pile that would win the game on the same turn you cast doomsday without having a decent amount of stuff in your hand and i would rather have the deck be able to win without needing any hand if possible.



PS: Not sure if this is the right spot for this as it isn't really about a deck but more of a doomsday pile which a deck could be built around after

[majikal]

Krevvy;597765']So i have been thinking of a doomsday deck which uses doomsday and Laboratory Maniac to set up a pile that wins on the same turn you cast doomsday.

Reason why i want to make this possible is that using the emrakul option opens you up to wasteland as well as possibly getting shot down with a moat or other form of prison effect. Also means you aren't running the show and tell which can be a good and bad thing as they are dead without emrakul and don't always win when you have the two together. It is still possible that this may end up being worst but it is good to look into as it is a strong deck in vintage.

Problem is i can't think of any pile that would win the game on the same turn you cast doomsday without having a decent amount of stuff in your hand and i would rather have the deck be able to win without needing any hand if possible.



PS: Not sure if this is the right spot for this as it isn't really about a deck but more of a doomsday pile which a deck could be built around after

any cantrip in hand, 2UUU floating (2UU if that cantrip is Gitaxian Probe):
Laboratory Maniac, Gitaxian Probe, Brainstorm, any card, any card (probably more probes just to play it safe)

[Bahamuth]

With any cantrip:

Idea's Unbound
LED
Probe
SDT
Maniac

Cantrip in IU, IU for LED Probe SDT, cast SDT, cast LED, cast Probe sac LED, draw LM, cast LM, tap SDT.

Cost: UU1 + Cantrip cost.

[Dark Ritual]

A pass the turn pile with maniac would look like this, the mana requirements would vary depending on whether you wanted protection or not (chant/silence is the best protection for maniac or pact of negation)

LED in hand + 2U

Meditate
Orim's chant/silence
Lotus Petal
Laboratory Maniac
Gitaxian Probe

You obviously lay down LED, cast meditate cracking LED in response for WWW, cast chant/silence, WW floating, lotus petal, crack for blue, maniac, probe targeting yourself/them (this doesn't matter too much). This pile costs a bit much for a pass the turn pile though. It requires that you have either enough mana to cast the meditate or an IU along with needing LED. You can probably find a better pile though since I'm not well versed in making doomsday piles from scratch and the above is a clear example why. Not to mention the above pile loses to any countermagic + removal spell or the opponent countering meditate or LED at which point you have to play draw go for 4 turns and pray that you don't die to a batterskull or something since you halved your life total.

Actually I just thought of a significantly better pile. This one requires you to have only a cantrip in hand. This is a pass the turn pile as well.

LED
Ideas Unbound
Dark Ritual
Gitaxian Probe
Laboratory Maniac

It only requires UB or B + 2 Life if you have probe as the cantrip to start it up. You can't have a protection spell unless you have enough mana though if you have double LED it becomes quite easy to win then again you won't always have a cantrip + LED in hand at the start of your turn.

[Silent Requiem]

Out of curiousity, where/when do you see this pile being useful? It seems awfully risky to set up a pile that dies to removal unless you have protection. And if you have protection, why not go for a more traditional pile?

Genuine question, by the way. I'm fairly new to Doomsday.

[Bahamuth]

I don't think Lab Maniac has any application in a DD list that wins on Tendrils game 1. Some lists exist that don't win on Tendrils, but rather abuse Shelldock Isle/Emrakul (playing 4 Show and Tell and FoW as well), that can board into either Tendrils or Lab Maniac. Maniac might be the choice because it requires less cards.

[nedleeds]

Out of curiousity, where/when do you see this pile being useful? It seems awfully risky to set up a pile that dies to removal unless you have protection. And if you have protection, why not go for a more traditional pile?

Genuine question, by the way. I'm fairly new to Doomsday.

Game 2. Seems better than Emerakul via a Wastelandable Shelldock. Lab Maniac gets around Runed Halo, Leyline Sanctity. They'll have boarded out all spot removal. In addition I have a Russian one.

[Namida]

Game 2. Seems better than Emerakul via a Wastelandable Shelldock. Lab Maniac gets around Runed Halo, Leyline Sanctity. They'll have boarded out all spot removal. In addition I have a Russian one.

My experience has been that no one boards out all of their removal because they would rather have a few dead cards in their deck than no way to interact with out-of-left-field bullshit like Laboratory Maniac, Xantid Swarm, Dark Confidant, etc.

[mchainmail]

There's another option on piles.

If you play Chromatic Sphere first, then play Maniac and activate Sphere, your opponent can't remove the Maniac in response. It's one more mana than Top, 2 more than probe.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

There's another option on piles.

If you play Chromatic Sphere first, then play Maniac and activate Sphere, your opponent can't remove the Maniac in response. It's one more mana than Top, 2 more than probe.

Why can't your opponent remove it in response?

[Julian23]

8/1/2008: This is a mana ability, which means it can be activated as part of the process of cating a spell or activating another ability. If that happens you get the mana right away, but you don't get to look at the drawn card until you have finished casting that spell or activating that ability.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

8/1/2008: This is a mana ability, which means it can be activated as part of the process of cating a spell or activating another ability. If that happens you get the mana right away, but you don't get to look at the drawn card until you have finished casting that spell or activating that ability.

That is awesome.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

@OP

Emrakrul has flying, so dont worry about Moat!

[Bahamuth]

Does this mean that I can have 3 mana floating, crack the Sphere to cast Labratory Maniac and win instantly? That's pretty fucking sick.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Does this mean that I can have 3 mana floating, crack the Sphere to cast Labratory Maniac and win instantly? That's pretty fucking sick.

Yeah, if this actually works I may have to pick up a Lab Man...

[phonics]

I think maniac has to be in play when you crack the sphere, its just you maintain priority after casting and it cant be responded to since it is a mana ability.

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah I'm pretty sure chromatic sphere works for instantly winning with maniac. Just please don't try to use chromatic star and you'll be fine since chromatic star's draw is a triggered ability/can be responded to.

Agreed on this probably being more useful in the slower non tendrils doomsday decks though. In a traditional german list or some other lists focused on tendrils to win lab maniac doesn't seem the greatest although this requires testing I guess.

[Zlatzman]

Does this mean that I can have 3 mana floating, crack the Sphere to cast Labratory Maniac and win instantly? That's pretty fucking sick.

If you use the Chromatic Sphere to cast Laboratory Maniac you will draw before Maniac enters the battlefield. You need to activate the Sphere while Maniac is on the battlefield, but you can do this without passing priority as soon as he enters the battlefield.


btw "enters the battlefield" is such a long thing to write over and over

[Julian23]

Sorry guys, this doesn't work. You draw the card when you use Chromatic Sphere to cast Laboratory Maniac. At this point though, the Maniac will only be on the stack but not in play.

[Tammit67]

Sorry guys, this doesn't work. You draw the card when you use Chromatic Sphere to cast Laboratory Maniac. At this point though, the Maniac will only be on the stack but not in play.



If you play Chromatic Sphere first, then play Maniac and activate Sphere, your opponent can't remove the Maniac in response. It's one more mana than Top, 2 more than probe.

You crack sphere after casting maniac, obviously.

[[PMP]Krevvy]

Thinking of using this as the shell for the deck. The idea is to use a similar form of protection that reanimator uses while also making it fast-ish.

4 Brainstorm
4 Preodian
2 Preodains
4 Force of Wills
3 Daze

4 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Thoughtsiezes

1 Chain of vapor
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Ideas Unbound

4 Infernal Tutors
4 Doomsday

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

18 Lands (11 Fetchs, 4 duals, 3 basics)

SB:
4 voids
1 Wipe away
1 Grapeshot
1 Helm of Awakening
3 Spell pierces or Flutterstorms
2-3 Duress
XX not sure
nice thing is it dodges spell snare (that is almost a 4 of in every blue deck)
Not needing to use my life as a combo resources means i can take longer to combo
Wit no gush it is harder to combo in the same turn as DD
May want a 2nd IU or meditate
May want chant effects, not sure
Unlike the show and tell version wasteland doesn't effect me
Should be able to not lose to removal through protection and playing smart
Standard Pile is:
Idea's Unbound
LED
Probe
SDT
Maniac

[Chikenbok]

Spell snare hits ideas unbound. And infernal Tutor.

[[PMP]Krevvy]

Turns were you are casting IU you have most likely got ride of there snare. Though may be a good reason to include a meditate as well.

also it does hit infernal but just have to play around that. Could use grim tutors in its place possibly.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

If you're playing IU, playing Silence/Chant is a necessity or you'll just lose to Spell Snare.

I've tried the LabMan lists with Force of Will, and you're better off using Tendrils as a win condition or playing Vintage.

[[PMP]Krevvy]

Played the list with -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 fetch +1 meditate + 1 volcanic island and went 2-1.

Round 1 i faced U/B/w Snapecaster/stoneforge control:
Game 1: we have a small counter war, i win and combo off.
Game 2: -3 Daze - 1 Chain of Vapor + 2 Duress + 2 Flutterstorm,
Turn 1 he thoughtsiezes my ponder and leaves me with 2 lands, a doomsday and some counters. i top deck a top and it resolves, after a few turns of topping and digging i cast a doomsday have a small counter war (let him win), next turn cast a 2nd doomsday and win.
Round 2: BUG
G1: he discards me into oblivion.
G2: -1 Chain - 2 thoughtsiezes - 1 Manic -2 Probes + 1 helm +1 Grape shot +2 Duress +2 Flutterstorms
Combo off with inf storm count on turn 3. Spend a bit thinking if i should side back into manic combo, i decided not to after i see my opponent not SB.
G3: We trade 1 for 1 for awhile, on turn 4 or 5 i resolve a top letting me dig as my opponent flips over spells with his bob. He gets down to about 6-7 life while i am at 3, i end up storming him with my grape shot without doomsday.
Round 3: RDW/u (snapecasters and brainstorms)
G1: I lose almost instantly.
-4 Fow -1 manic -1 Probe + 2 Duress +2 Flutterstorms +1 Grape Shot +1 helm, really wish i had a tendrils in my SB.
G2: I doomsday and he bolts me to 1 life, then tries to Fireblast, i Daze and combo off.
G3: I watch as my life total goes down in 3's and he destroys my Top's.

Still not sure if manic is better in the Sb and have a more traditional Doomsday tendrils list like RaNDoMxGeSTuReS suggested, or i splash the white for chants and cut the grapeshot kill for tendrils instead. Though the deck did perform well and resolving doomsday almost always meant I won, as well as the BUG guy originally thought i was going to doomsday for emrakul as he had 2 wastelands open. And i don't think i could ever have a positive match up against RDW. Also i am really loving flutterstom every time i played it.