BU/w Sinkblade

[TheyCallMeTim]

Introduction:
I have always liked Stifle and Wasteland in the same deck, such as the older tempo Merfolk builds or Dreadstill. However, there was always a need for more in order for the LD strategy to be sucessful. Enter Black. The idea initially was to throw Sinkhole into the mix and there's our friend Vindicate too. Previously, the major difficulty here was that we could never have more LD than the opponent had lands. Now, with Snapcaster Mage, our threat density is doubled (along with excellent instant speed targets). So with PLAYABLE land destruction, we have the ability to add countermagic, discard and some of the best removal availible in our colors. I came to realize that discard isn't the best strategy at this point because hopefully our opponent will be sitting on a full grip and no land. But counters like Daze and Spell Pierce are infinitely better and Swords to Plowshares is always good. At this point, with an opportunity for superior board position (also in part due to Dark Confidant), we need some threats. Luckily Stoneforge Mystic has been making small dudes kick ass for almost 2 years now. I know I've seen Stifle matched with Sinkhole and Hymn to Tourach (see previous comment on discard) in some older Team America builds, but has anything more in this direction been tried before?

I have 2 similar lists in mind for testing.

BU/w SinkBlade

4 Stifle
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Scrubland
1 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats


This list has 12 spells that target can target land (before Snapcaster) plus Wasteland but is a little light on threats. Additionally, 4x each of Sinkhole and Vindicate might be a little much and caused me to lean more heavily on nonbasics.

U/bw SnapBlade

4 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Delver of Secrets

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp


This style moves away from Sinkhole and more into Blue in favor of Force of Will (a card that doesn't particularly play well with Bob and Snapcaster). But what LD we lose in the translation, we gain in agressiveness by way of Delver of Secrets, soon to be a sword weilding 3/2 flyer.

By the way, both of these builds should really be able to finally break the underwhleming trigger of an otherwise great weapon known as Sword of War and Peace. Any thoughts?


********************************************************************************

[Qweerios]

Cool deck idea! I suggest Force Spike or Mana Tithe over spell pierce. Being able to counter creatures is relevant in a LD deck and your opponent shouldn't be able to afford leaving mana open when casting spells. Disrupt is interesting too.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Very true, good thought. Though I do like the idea of forcing them to pay 2 instead of 1 and I feel like StP can pick mop up after the first few turns.

[Qweerios]

Honestly, if they can leave mana open, it's not looking good for you. Besides, it would be a shame to lose to a T1 mana dork that you could have otherwise countered.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I'm looking for other options. I guess Mana Leak is always a hard counter, but I'd want something with more class.

[TheyCallMeTim]

And there must be something better than Sphere of Resistance but along those lines that I can board in for tough matchups like 1 Drop Zoo and Storm Combo. Definitely liking Flusterstorm. It's always good for 2, 3 when flashbacked post Snapcaster. Then there's the random matches where it's an absolute hero.

[Esper3k]

Very interesting deck! I always love me some Sinkhole action.

Have you considered Jace at all? It's mana expensive, but the fateseal to keep them off lands is just so mean!

[TheyCallMeTim]

I had, but I always have an old-school kind of built in resistance to Plainswalkers. I didn't consider the fateseal though, that is pretty badass! I'd probably start from the second list for a direct swap with Brainstorm. But at some point it could just become a bad twist on classic BladeControl. Speaking of which, that might be a good starting point from a deckbuilding perspective.

[Esper3k]

Really, do we actually need Stoneforge Mystic? Sure, it makes all our little guys bigger, but it takes up considerable deckbuilding space. Would you think something like a couple Dreadnoughts would work better? Faster clock since the deck already runs Stifle + SCM?

[DragoFireheart]

Your deck confuses me. You have mid-late game elements like Bob and Snappy, but then you have tempo elements like Stifle and Wasteland. It seems like your deck is trying to do two opposing strategy's but can't truly capitalize on either.

[Kich867]

Your deck confuses me. You have mid-late game elements like Bob and Snappy, but then you have tempo elements like Stifle and Wasteland. It seems like your deck is trying to do two opposing strategy's but can't truly capitalize on either.

^ This, I think stifle-naught or tombstalker needs to be here.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Really, do we actually need Stoneforge Mystic? Sure, it makes all our little guys bigger, but it takes up considerable deckbuilding space. Would you think something like a couple Dreadnoughts would work better? Faster clock since the deck already runs Stifle + SCM?

I defintely agree that she requires a large commitment, but Dreadnought feels very "all in". I'd hate to fold to StP or any number of Black cards (Except Go for the Throat!) I think this needs some more thought and testing.


^ This, I think stifle-naught or tombstalker needs to be here.

But I don't think Tombstalker is the answer. Bob hates him of course, but SCM even more. It seems like he would be clunky everytime.


Your deck confuses me. You have mid-late game elements like Bob and Snappy, but then you have tempo elements like Stifle and Wasteland. It seems like your deck is trying to do two opposing strategy's but can't truly capitalize on either.

Tempo elements lead to a better mid game position. Meanwhile, Bob and SCM become tempo elements at that point, leading into more threats to maintain that position.

[Kich867]

I defintely agree that she requires a large commitment, but Dreadnought feels very "all in". I'd hate to fold to StP or any number of Black cards (Except Go for the Throat!) I think this needs some more thought and testing.



But I don't think Tombstalker is the answer. Bob hates him of course, but SCM even more. It seems like he would be clunky everytime.



Tempo elements lead to a better mid game position. Meanwhile, Bob and SCM become tempo elements at that point, leading into more threats to maintain that position.

The implication was that Bob should go. Bob and SFM say that you want to win later, but the land destruction package says you want to win now.

Somewhere on this page or the next is my deck, USAF, it ran similar creatures and tried to be a tempo deck, it doesn't work. Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Dreadnaught, some sort of very large cheap creature is fairly necessary in order for these sorts of decks to work.

I can blow up land and stifle fetches all day, but if I can't kill them between 2-4 turns at a cheap enough cost to keep doing it, then I won't win. The games drag on, it feels like you're playing a mid range control deck without the control. Dreadnaught should be being protected by Force of Will and Daze, given their weakened mana pool they will have trouble breaking your protection.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Something like this maybe?

DreadLand

4 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Mana Leak (Counterspell? Spell Pierce?)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Dark Confidant What here? I really like more cards...
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island

[TheyCallMeTim]

Or a re-tool of the Black heavy version:

B/uw Land Obliterator

4 Stifle
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark Ritual
3 Dismember

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Phyrexian Obliterator

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp

At first Phyrexian Obliterator seems clunky, though every (non Waste) land makes B and his ability works great with our strategy. Also, Dark Ritual plays nice with him, Sinkhole and SCM. Loses a lot in terms of card advantage but appears to have serious raw power.

Also curves beautifully: http://deckstats.net/deck-899496-38d1a4061bf3132e4e227f941ce9e6f3-en.html

[klaus]

Also curves beautifully: http://deckstats.net/deck-899496-38d1a4061bf3132e4e227f941ce9e6f3-en.html

Snapcaster is not a tempo card.
I'd suggest cutting him completely or down to 1-2.
Here's a spontaneous draft of mine:

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Sinkhole
2 Vindicate
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark Ritual
2 Dismember
3 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Tombstalker
3 Delver of Secrets

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flaetts
1 Swamp
(61)

SB:
3 Engineered Plague
3 Submerge
4 Extirpate / Leyline of the Void
2 Disenchant
3 meta slots (Jace, BEB, creature removal, etc.)

[Final Fortune]

I really think you want Hymn to Tourach instead of Sinkhole, the advantage of cards like Stifle, Vindicate, Wasteland and to a lesser extent Hymn to Tourach is that they aren't restricted into playing an LD role so even tho' your deck is seemingly an LD deck you can still find alternative uses for every LD card. Sinkhole is just a one dimentional basic land killer, and Vindicate handles that job already.

Mana Leak is terrible.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I really think you want Hymn to Tourach instead of Sinkhole, the advantage of cards like Stifle, Vindicate, Wasteland and to a lesser extent Hymn to Tourach is that they aren't restricted into playing an LD role so even tho' your deck is seemingly an LD deck you can still find alternative uses for every LD card. Sinkhole is just a one dimentional basic land killer, and Vindicate handles that job already.

Mana Leak is terrible.

I agree on Mana Leak and understand what you mean on Sinkhole. I love Hymn but I think it dilutes the strategy. Instead of keeping them on 0 or 1 land, your taking random cards from their best sculpted hand and allowing them to go to land number 2.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Snapcaster is not a tempo card.
I'd suggest cutting him completely or down to 1-2.
Here's a spontaneous draft of mine:

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Sinkhole
2 Vindicate
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark Ritual
2 Dismember
3 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Tombstalker
3 Delver of Secrets

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flaetts
1 Swamp
(61)

SB:
3 Engineered Plague
3 Submerge
4 Extirpate / Leyline of the Void
2 Disenchant
3 meta slots (Jace, BEB, creature removal, etc.)

Nice list and good curve, I like it. Why Delver though? I do like that Snapcaster doubles everything and makes some nice plays with Dark Ritual. Could be a 3 of maybe?

[Kich867]

Nice list and good curve, I like it. Why Delver though? I do like that Snapcaster doubles everything and makes some nice plays with Dark Ritual. Could be a 3 of maybe?

Because Delver is an absolute monster. Imagine this scenario: Turn 1: Delver, Turn 2: Flip delver to a 3/2 flier, sinkhole/stifle, hit them for 3. Turn 3: Wasteland, ritual, obliterator, hit them for 3.

It's like a blue Wild Nacatl that doesn't need to splash 2 colors and flies. And it's blue. I like his list a lot, though I really don't like obliterator.

I'd rather you remove Obliterators from that list, put Tombstalker and Delver to 4 each, drop spell pierce + the last oblit spot for 4x force of will, drop dark ritual for probably hymn to tourach or another extremely good tempo beater, probably hymn to tourach though.

[klaus]

Because Delver is an absolute monster. Imagine this scenario: Turn 1: Delver, Turn 2: Flip delver to a 3/2 flier, sinkhole/stifle, hit them for 3. Turn 3: Wasteland, ritual, obliterator, hit them for 3.

It's like a blue Wild Nacatl that doesn't need to splash 2 colors and flies. And it's blue. I like his list a lot, though I really don't like obliterator.

I'd rather you remove Obliterators from that list, put Tombstalker and Delver to 4 each, drop spell pierce + the last oblit spot for 4x force of will, drop dark ritual for probably hymn to tourach or another extremely good tempo beater, probably hymn to tourach though.
thanks for the props.
here's my updated list, after some testing - guess it's turned into something completely different, so I'll probably better keep on updating it in the Delver-TA thread:

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
4 Wasteland
(20)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
1 Terminate
41
(=61)

SB:

4 Extirpate
2 Submerge
2 Firespout
2 Shattering Spree
3 REB
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

[Greenpoe]

Why would you play 3 Hymn? Having two Hymns in your starting hand is good. Having a late-game Hymn lets to force them to discard counters.

[Kich867]

thanks for the props.
here's my updated list, after some testing - guess it's turned into something completely different, so I'll probably better keep on updating it in the Delver-TA thread:

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
4 Wasteland
(20)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
1 Terminate
41
(=61)

SB:

4 Extirpate
2 Submerge
2 Firespout
2 Shattering Spree
3 REB
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

Not understanding the lack of force of will. Drop ponder, drop spell pierce, max out hymn, daze, and FOW's.

That will be 6 cards, leave the 7th out, there's almost never any reason to play more than 60 cards.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Because Delver is an absolute monster. Imagine this scenario: Turn 1: Delver, Turn 2: Flip delver to a 3/2 flier, sinkhole/stifle, hit them for 3. Turn 3: Wasteland, ritual, obliterator, hit them for 3.

It's like a blue Wild Nacatl that doesn't need to splash 2 colors and flies. And it's blue. I like his list a lot, though I really don't like obliterator.

I'd rather you remove Obliterators from that list, put Tombstalker and Delver to 4 each, drop spell pierce + the last oblit spot for 4x force of will, drop dark ritual for probably hymn to tourach or another extremely good tempo beater, probably hymn to tourach though.


Not understanding the lack of force of will. Drop ponder, drop spell pierce, max out hymn, daze, and FOW's.

That will be 6 cards, leave the 7th out, there's almost never any reason to play more than 60 cards.


Alright, something like this?

4 Stifle
4 Sinkhole
3 Vindicate

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismember

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will

3 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp

[klaus]

Alright, something like this?

4 Stifle
4 Sinkhole
3 Vindicate

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismember

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will

3 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp



Appears legit to me - I've thought about STP though and came to the conclusion that giving your opponent life points just doesn't seem to fit into tempo strategies. The only agressive decks that can pull it off play 10/10 Progenitals or 12/12 KotRs (those decks are not necessarily considered tempo decks however).
So that's basically the reason I came to drop white and jump on the red train - initial testing is promising.

[Setherial]

I've been playing with the same concept for a while. this is my build



60 cards
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scrubland
2 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
23 lands


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tombstalker
8 creatures


4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Vindicate
4 force of will

[TheyCallMeTim]

Appears legit to me - I've thought about STP though and came to the conclusion that giving your opponent life points just doesn't seem to fit into tempo strategies. The only agressive decks that can pull it off play 10/10 Progenitals or 12/12 KotRs (those decks are not necessarily considered tempo decks however).
So that's basically the reason I came to drop white and jump on the red train - initial testing is promising.

Definitely a good argument. I've been looking for a way to make use of Terminate for a while, thought about Burn with a splash for it and Bob. My thought is the higher CC guys shouldn't make it to the board if we can keep them off land. However, a resolved Knight of the Reliquary might be this deck's worse nightmare. There are some other options in Black that might warrant inclusion in the SB to deal with matchups like these. Some options that I liked in Deadguy Ale were Retribution of the Meek and Tariff. These can hit opposing protection guys like Prog and Emakrul but unfortunately kill Tombstalker also. And don't forget we'll always have Vindicate if need be.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I've been playing with the same concept for a while. this is my build

How has it worked for you, what are the tough matchups and what other creatures do you use?

EDIT: I count only 56 cards in your list.
EDIT 2: Must be Force of Will?

[Setherial]

How has it worked for you, what are the tough matchups and what other creatures do you use?

EDIT: I count only 56 cards in your list.
EDIT 2: Must be Force of Will?

yeah sorry bout that, force fell of :)

well I'm still testing, haven't played a tournament with it yet. I want the concept to work though and Vindicate does a lot for me. I've been playing UW and UWR snapcaster lists with stifle and wasteland and in both versions I really hate not being able to remove non creature stuff once it has resolved. Aether Vail to name one.

So now I'm looking at black. This is the tempo version. The control version would have snapcasters, jace and pernicious deed. I think the tombstalkers are better then snapcasters in a tempo build and they don't play well together.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I'm not a huge fan of that mana base. Ignoring the printed cost of FOW and Daze, the primary color in your list is Black. This is not a bad thing because we wanna make sure to have BB on turn 2. Try this:

2 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

If your stuck on the basic Island idea try +1 and -1 Scrubland


The control version would have snapcasters, jace and pernicious deed.

I'm thinking Engineered Explosives is what you'd want.

[Setherial]

I'm not a huge fan of that mana base. Ignoring the printed cost of FOW and Daze, the primary color in your list is Black. This is not a bad thing because we wanna make sure to have BB on turn 2. Try this:

2 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

If your stuck on the basic Island idea try +1 and -1 Scrubland



I'm thinking Engineered Explosives is what you'd want.

Yeah after a defeat against merfolk during my last tournament I made room for 2x explosives.

Thanks for the landbase help, I'll try that. and yes I'm a fan of that 1 island :)

[TheyCallMeTim]

Yeah after a defeat against merfolk during my last tournament I made room for 2x explosives.

Let's see a tounament report...!

[Greenpoe]

Definitely a good argument. I've been looking for a way to make use of Terminate for a while, thought about Burn with a splash for it and Bob. My thought is the higher CC guys shouldn't make it to the board if we can keep them off land. However, a resolved Knight of the Reliquary might be this deck's worse nightmare. There are some other options in Black that might warrant inclusion in the SB to deal with matchups like these. Some options that I liked in Deadguy Ale were Retribution of the Meek and Tariff. These can hit opposing protection guys like Prog and Emakrul but unfortunately kill Tombstalker also. And don't forget we'll always have Vindicate if need be.

Get Perish or Dystopia in the SB for Progenitus/KoTR decks. Perhaps Dismember over StP because Dismember is easier on the manabase and doesn't give them life. LD plans tend to fail because of either Hierarch+GSZ or Vial. If Smallpox could fit in the deck, it would be perfect to fight Hierarch decks, but Smallpox is difficult to support.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Get Perish or Dystopia in the SB for Progenitus/KoTR decks. Perhaps Dismember over StP because Dismember is easier on the manabase and doesn't give them life. LD plans tend to fail because of either Hierarch+GSZ or Vial. If Smallpox could fit in the deck, it would be perfect to fight Hierarch decks, but Smallpox is difficult to support.

All great thoughts, thank you. I think I'd prefer Perish over Dystopia. I like that Swords to Plowshares is only cc 1, may end up with a 3 - 2 split with Dismember. However, Klaus said something similar before:


I've thought about STP though and came to the conclusion that giving your opponent life points just doesn't seem to fit into tempo strategies.

and I had forgotten about Dismember. Will work on another list.

[Greenpoe]

How about a list like this? Sinkhole lives!
// Lands
3 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [JGC] Wasteland
1 [7E] Swamp
1 [CST] Island
3 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [INN] Delver of Secrets
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [B] Sinkhole
4 [NPH] Dismember
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CMD] Brainstorm

[GradStudentGuy]

I think the white for vindicate is little greedy in this deck its also at the top of your curve. You already have 12 ways to deny land in the form of sinkhole stifle and wasteland. I rather run snapcaster mange to re-buy LD along with removal and cantrips.


// Lands
4 [R] Underground Sea
3 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [JGC] Wasteland
2 [7E] Swamp
2 [CST] Island
1 [RAV] Ghost Quarter
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 [INN] Snapcaster Mage
4 [INN] Delver of Secrets
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [B] Sinkhole
4 [NPH] Dismember
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CMD] Brainstorm

[TheyCallMeTim]

I think the white for vindicate is little greedy in this deck its also at the top of your curve. You already have 12 ways to deny land in the form of sinkhole stifle and wasteland. I rather run snapcaster mange to re-buy LD along with removal and cantrips.


// Lands
4 Underground Sea
3 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tombstalker

// Spells
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Stifle
4 Sinkhole
4 Dismember
2 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

I like that, good idea. Thing is, Vindicate allows us to answer more than just lands. There's a lot of nonland permanents out there that give us problems.

[Seems Good]

I like that, good idea. Thing is, Vindicate allows us to answer more than just lands. There's a lot of nonland permanents out there that give us problems.

Agreed...white also gives access to SFM package which i think fits in really nicely with Bob and Snapcaster. I like the idea of a "tempo" style deck with Delver and Stalker but I think this deck is positioned more as a midrange/disruption deck.

OP...really happy you made this thread. I've been toying with the idea of a UWB "Esper LD" forever with Wasteland, Stifle, Sinkhole and Vindicate forever and I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought it might work.

I think the first list the OP posted looked most viable. I might take that and do:

-2 Spell Pierce
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Vindicate
+4 Force of Will

Brings the blue count up to 18 which should be fine for FoW.

[TheyCallMeTim]

OP...really happy you made this thread. I've been toying with the idea of a UWB "Esper LD" forever with Wasteland, Stifle, Sinkhole and Vindicate forever and I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought it might work.

I think the first list the OP posted looked most viable. I might take that and do:

-2 Spell Pierce
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Vindicate
+4 Force of Will

Brings the blue count up to 18 which should be fine for FoW.

Thank you. Hopefully between the few of us that showed interest, we can develop and tune this into a formidable contender. Continue to put it to the test and keep us posted!

[Sloshthedark]

drop white and you have whole new deck, lets call it Team America

[Greenpoe]

The Stoneforge package takes up too much space. I've also cut the StP/Dismember for 3 Cliques and 1 Ponder. Extra threats means you don't need dedicated removal as much, plus there's always Vindicate.

[TheyCallMeTim]

The Stoneforge package takes up too much space. I've also cut the StP/Dismember for 3 Cliques and 1 Ponder. Extra threats means you don't need dedicated removal as much, plus there's always Vindicate.

What's your list look like at this point? Have you tested it at all?

[Greenpoe]

I started from your proposed list actually (the list below), except +1 Vindicate, +1 Tombstalker, +3 Vendilion Clique and -1 Dismember, -4 StP. Bringing the blue count up is always nice, except the manabase is worse. Still does fine vs. Wasteland with Stifle though. Not sure if this build is better or worse than the Snapcaster/Confidant/Stoneforge one, but winning sooner with Stalker is always nice.


Alright, something like this?

4 Stifle
4 Sinkhole
3 Vindicate

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismember

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will

3 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp

[TheyCallMeTim]

The thread necromancer strikes again! I've been thinking about this strategy lately on the back of True-Name Nemesis and Geist of Saint Traft as kill conditions. Maybe something like this:

4 Stifle
4 Sinkhole
3 Vindicate

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ghastly Demise

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Geist of Saint Traft

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats

[kingtk3]

The thread necromancer strikes again! I've been thinking about this strategy lately on the back of True-Name Nemesis and Geist of Saint Traft as kill conditions. Maybe something like this:

4 Stifle
4 Sinkhole
3 Vindicate

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ghastly Demise

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Geist of Saint Traft

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats


Wouldn't Force of Will be better than Ghastly Demise? You already have 7 removal (4 stp and 3 vindicate) and have 22 blue cards (25 with 3 fow) to support force.

I think you really need a good reason to play blue and NOT to play fow.

[klaus]

TNN really only shines when he's pumped (Merfolk) or equipped (SFM package).
In a dedicated tempo shell 3 mana is just too much for a guy dealing 3 dmg / turn.

[TheyCallMeTim]

TNN really only shines when he's pumped (Merfolk) or equipped (SFM package).
In a dedicated tempo shell 3 mana is just too much for a guy dealing 3 dmg / turn.

That's how the list was originally but space is really hard to come by with 12+ Land Destruction and 8+ Counterspells. If it can be done (4 TNN, 3 SCM, 3 SFM?) I'm all for it. Another solution that cropped up was Stifle+Dreadnought.

[thefreakaccident]

Stifle/Nought could work again, but you'd probably want mother of runes.

[Greenpoe]

TNN really only shines when he's pumped (Merfolk) or equipped (SFM package).
In a dedicated tempo shell 3 mana is just too much for a guy dealing 3 dmg / turn.

I disagree. Even if TNN isn't perfect, 3 mana for an unblockable, unkillable guy with protection from creatures is fantastic. SFM is slow and if you're killing lands, you want to capitalize on the tempo. I would say this deck would just want to run Delver, Snapcaster and TNN as the only creatures and go from there.