Grinning While You're Winning - R 1st Turn Infinite Combo

[optml]

Hi guys,

Just thought I'd get some feedback for the following deck I've been running. It needs some help, but I like the concept.

It CAN (with no disruption) win on the first turn with a few different hands.

// Combo
4x Grinning Ignus
4x Urza's Incubator
4x Brighthearth Banneret

// Search
4x Flamekin Harbinger

// Win Con
4x Emrakul, the aeons torn

// Mana Acceleration
4x Seething Song
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Grim Monolith
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Manamorphose

// Lands
2x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
10x Mountain

Example Nuts Hand:
Sol Land, Grinning Ignus, Seething Song, Urza's Incubator, Simian Spirit Guide, Emrakul, 1 other random card.

Using Guide and Sol Land, cast Seething Song.
Use 3 for Incubator.
Cast Ignus for R.
Use the remaining R to return our grinning friend.
Repeat any number of times.

Cast Emrakul. (ok, so this one isn't officially first turn, but it's close enough. Using grapeshot with another mana producer it would be).

It's got a nice stable mana base of Pure Red.

Flamekin searches for Ignus or Brighthearth (N.B. Brighthearth nets zero total mana, but increases storm count infinite times. This needs grapeshot for the win).

Alternative plans that I've looked at includes making it R/B because;

You get heartless summoning as another combo piece
mana accel in the form of rituals (cabal and dark).
Disruption in the form of discard.

But, I'm open to suggestions. I'll leave it to the Legacy community.

Thanks, and looking forward to your thoughts.

[Piceli89]

Nice. Loses to Force of Will or removal on Ignus.

[from Cairo]

Would Grapeshot be better than Emrakul in this deck?

[Nameless Two]

I tried this when it was standard legal with Cloudkeys. It doesn't work, you need a red to cast the Ignus and a red to bounce it. But bouncing it only gives you 1 red mana. So you need to put in 1 red mana every time you do the loop. Going infinite with just these cards is just not an option.

[optml]

I tried this when it was standard legal with Cloudkeys. It doesn't work, you need a red to cast the Ignus and a red to bounce it. But bouncing it only gives you 1 red mana. So you need to put in 1 red mana every time you do the loop. Going infinite with just these cards is just not an option.

Oooh, you're right! Thanks.
Well in that case, is there a way to get this to work?

@Piceli89
Really constructive. We need more people like you designing and modifying decks.
Your approach of "there are counterspells out there. Don't bother" is great.

EDIT:
I guess something like gemstone array but costs less (as gemstone is rubbish).
Although, following Nameless' observation, (and my inability to read cards) this combo is probably dead in the water. Shame, it was fun while it lasted!

[Piceli89]

@Piceli89
Really constructive. We need more people like you designing and modifying decks.
Your approach of "there are counterspells out there. Don't bother" is great.



I always have a very critical eye towards building new combo decks in Legacy, and they must respect specific criteria: flexibility, resiliency to pre/post sideboard disruption, and consistency. You just have built a worse version of Belcher that doesn't cantrip, loses to creature removal, and is not as likely to combo on turn one. Emrakul makes the opening seven a virtual mulligan.
While these arguments may sound as a pure attempt of trolling your ideas, in reality I'm trying to make you reflect about what makes a new breed worth being built and chosen over already existing, estabilished builds. In a funny/casual/local environment, this could do the trick once, maybe twice; in a competitive one, you are getting raped by a single Thoughtseize or even a Swords to Plowshares.

[Richard Cheese]

The question you have to ask yourself (and this is true with any developing deck) is "why play this over [established equivalent]?" In your case, you have to compare to Belcher. Are you more consistent? Susceptible to less hate? Able to run a transformative SB? It never hurts to explore new ideas just for the sake of getting them out there, but finding where a deck fits in the meta is always going to be the major hurdle to getting it taken seriously.

[clavio]

@Piceli89
Really constructive. We need more people like you designing and modifying decks.
Your approach of "there are counterspells out there. Don't bother" is great.


So how does this deck beat force of will, the most played card in legacy? I agree we need more people with those sort of comments. I think a prove to me your deck isn't a piece of shit is a good route to take to spark deck building dialogue.

[Darkenslight]

IT doesn't work first turn. You may as well play Raging Goblin combo, for all the consistency that you'll have in turn 1 wins.

That said, it's deifnitely an interesting ides. What you'll probably need is a non-tapping mana filter that isn't a creature, ideally. Well, either that or a lot of color filters, such as Chromatic Sphere and Shadowblood Egg.

[Roman]

http://magiccards.info/query?q=skyshroud+elf&v=card&s=cname
This Guy will make it work, at least the infinite thing.

[Infinitium]

EDIT: Nah, wouldn't work out. Ignore me.

[Mystical_Jackass]

It's a bad combo. Vulnerable to everything, can't protect itself.

I mean, it's pretty much no different than running the ol' Training Grounds, Izzet Guildmage, Manamorphose into a Banefire, which actually could prolly win on turn 1 if you really wanted to, but worse since it can't run countermagic and brainstorms.

[mistercakes]

while the idea of it seems very cool, i don't quite understand the need for ALL of the mana accel.

sure you want to get turn 1 kills, but wouldn't you rather make it consistent vs the 80% of the decks running force of will, and some of those running daze, stifle, spell snare, and spell pierce?


what i would do is keep your combo, try to focus on a way so that you can draw your combo pieces or have tutors.

disruption similarly to the magus of the moon/blood moon, red blasts like how the mono red painters decks works.

just a thought.

[UrsaMajor]

[QUOTE=optml;598493]Oooh, you're right! Thanks.
Well in that case, is there a way to get this to work?

I posted this combo some years back and yes there are ways to get it to go off Turn 1. Key pieces are Ruby Medallion and Skyshroud Elf which lets you convert colorless mana to Red mana for free and get around the loop 20 times. Grapeshot is your win condition. You are better off trying to get this deck to more reliably go off on turn 2 or turn 3 with Brighthearth Banneret and Soulbright Flamekin than trying for the miracle Turn 1 draw and win. Soulbright Flamekin lets you do the "colorless to Red" conversion while staying monoR.

[MaximumC]

This is a bad combo deck.

But maybe it's only a sub-par aggro/combo deck? Maybe, instead of going all-in on the Ingus plan, you run tribal Elemental and use Ingus as acceleration. Consider: if you have two cost-reducing effects, Ingus turns RR1 into R3 as often as you can play him. On turn 3 this is kind of boring. But, if you can live until turn 6, now you're ramping up to R9. That's not Emrakul territory, but it's not bad. If you have all those cost reducers anyway, this might be a good way to dump expensive Elementals into play.

Just a thought.