Shuffling with Top Loaders

[Solthos]

How do you guys shuffle with top loaders and not get mana screwed often? I use a seven pile shuffle and a six pile shuffle but I usually get mana screwed.

Does anybody take top loaders with them to big tournaments?

[MSC]

Pileshuffling doesn't randomize your deck. You need to at least sideshuffle a dozen times. If your still getting manascrewed, maybe you're playing not enough lands...

[MWR]

I find it interesting how many people come up with / have the idea that different types of shuffling and mana screw are related. If so, I guess all those people are not sufficiently randomizing their decks.

I see it often in our casual EDH group. After a long game with roughly 15-20 lands in play, most players try to evenly distribute their lands and other permanents among the rest of the deck in order to avoid mana clusters because honestly nobody shuffles a 100 card deck randomly enough. For casual I'm ok with that and I don't want to have games when my opponents are mana screwed etc. But strictly speaking, in a randomized deck mana screw is something normally happens with some statistical variance... (and can't be avoided by shuffling clever unless cheating).

[Olesch]

How do you guys shuffle with top loaders and not get mana screwed often? I use a seven pile shuffle and a six pile shuffle but I usually get mana screwed.

Does anybody take top loaders with them to big tournaments?

Shuffling with toploaders? You are not kidding :smile:?

How big of a library would that not be :smile:

[betterthenandrew]

How do you guys shuffle with top loaders and not get mana screwed often? I use a seven pile shuffle and a six pile shuffle but I usually get mana screwed.

Does anybody take top loaders with them to big tournaments?



That's not shuffling, that's cheating, fortunately for you (and many other players) there are many people who don't understand how randomizing works.
See:
http://fivewithflores.com/2009/05/how-to-cheat/

To answer your question I don't know that people can realistically shuffle top loaders, use normal sleeves and you will be fine.

[Julian23]

@betterthenandrew:

Actually it's just Insufficient Shuffling which will be penalized with a Warning.


A player unintentionally fails to sufficiently shuffle his or her deck or portion of his or her deck before presenting it to his or her opponent. A deck is not shuffled if the judge believes a player could know the position or distribution of one or more cards in his or her deck.

Cheating is a way more severe infraction with much harsher consequences. It's pretty obvious, that the original poster just has no idea how to actually shuffle. Therefor, I don't see evidence of deliberate insufficient shuffling. Therefor no cheating. At least that's what I believe.

[Di]

Why are you using toploaders in the first place? Unless your deck is full of Beta duals or other expensive foreign foils and such, you shouldn't be using them, and even then you're better off just using perfect fits + regular sleeves due to the difficulty in handling the deck and shuffling toploaders cause.

[Octopusman]

That's not shuffling, that's cheating, fortunately for you (and many other players) there are many people who don't understand how randomizing works.
See:
http://fivewithflores.com/2009/05/how-to-cheat/

To answer your question I don't know that people can realistically shuffle top loaders, use normal sleeves and you will be fine.

The last time Worlds was in San Francisco, there was a guy with a suicide black deck in a vintage side event and I think almost everything was like beta tutor, beta hippies, etc. The whole deck was top loaders and I think it was to maintain condition (obviously).

I don't think that playing in regular sleeves was a realistic alternative for someone like this.


The human brain identifies coincidences more readily than when things work out smoothly. Maybe you're just unlucky.

I don't have a solution for you. Good luck.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Why are you using toploaders in the first place? Unless your deck is full of Beta duals or other expensive foreign foils and such, you shouldn't be using them, and even then you're better off just using perfect fits + regular sleeves due to the difficulty in handling the deck and shuffling toploaders cause.

Because playing fake cards in toploaders feels awesome:wink:

To the topic, what are the real differences between riffle shuffle and pile shuffle in 2?

[JamieW89]

Because playing fake cards in toploaders feels awesome:wink:

To the topic, what are the real differences between riffle shuffle and pile shuffle in 2?

A riffle shuffle isn't always perfect and a pile shuffle is.

[Julian23]

A riffle shuffle isn't always perfect and a pile shuffle is.

Yeah. That element of dexterity-related imperfection is what actually causes randomness in the first place. Unlike doing a 2-pile shuffle, which already sounds hilarious. lol.

[tsabo_tavoc]

A riffle shuffle isn't always perfect and a pile shuffle is.

Thanks:smile: Then, the question would be, can one practice riffle shuffle enough to do it perfectly and exploit it to stack a deck?

[Koby]

Because playing fake cards in toploaders feels awesome:wink:

To the topic, what are the real differences between riffle shuffle and pile shuffle in 2?

Time.

[Bryant Cook]

Why are you using toploaders in the first place? Unless your deck is full of Beta duals or other expensive foreign foils and such, you shouldn't be using them, and even then you're better off just using perfect fits + regular sleeves due to the difficulty in handling the deck and shuffling toploaders cause.

This.

Even if your deck is all Foreign foils, top loaders are awful. Keep them for mailing purposes but thats it. My deck is worth way more than most peoples and I don't use them. Neither should you.

[John Cox]

This.

Even if your deck is all Foreign foils, top loaders are awful. Keep them for mailing purposes but thats it. My deck is worth way more than most peoples and I don't use them. Neither should you.

I second that, but want to add that top loaders make it difficult for an opponent to shuffle your deck. You should get a warning and have to de-sleeve for using them like you do for mismatching sleeves at the very least.

[Julian23]

At least here in Germany, I've already ran into several people that actually used triple-sleeves. Perfect Size+regular sleeves+tripple sleeves on top.

Maybe that's something you want to loook into instead of toploaders..

[Koby]

Or play MWS/Cockatrice/MTGO.

That way, you don't need to worry about your cards degrading, or even wearing any pants.

[betterthenandrew]

The last time Worlds was in San Francisco, there was a guy with a suicide black deck in a vintage side event and I think almost everything was like beta tutor, beta hippies, etc. The whole deck was top loaders and I think it was to maintain condition (obviously).

I don't think that playing in regular sleeves was a realistic alternative for someone like this.

Beta tutors and Hippies don't really even fall into the realm of expensive cards in eternal formats (The tutor is on par with Blue duals, the hippies are on par with many format staples). Even if you perceive your deck to be valuable you don't have a license to cheat.

I remember an event a couple years back where a guy sitting next to was playing some aweful Mono black thing with Tabernacle. He had the tabernacle in a top loader in his deck box, and had it proxied on a basic mountain. The Judge said he couldn't do that in a sanctioned event and the player flipped shit, claiming the judge was out of his mind to think he should be shuffling his (Italian) Tabernacle. At that point I show him the Tabernacle I have in play, and the tabernacle the guy next to me has in play. And the fact that I am playing all foil/FBB 43 lands deck, and that the guy on the otherside of him is playing a pimped tendrils list(not Bryant level pimp, but still more than his tabernacle). He shut up pretty quickly (and took his game loss for trying to play proxies).

Also, one last thing, assuming you're not cheating intentionally a deck that is less random will more often give you bad draws because the land will remain in clumps after the game the previous game.

[phonics]

Beta tutors and Hippies don't really even fall into the realm of expensive cards in eternal formats (The tutor is on par with Blue duals, the hippies are on par with many format staples). Even if you perceive your deck to be valuable you don't have a license to cheat.

I remember an event a couple years back where a guy sitting next to was playing some aweful Mono black thing with Tabernacle. He had the tabernacle in a top loader in his deck box, and had it proxied on a basic mountain. The Judge said he couldn't do that in a sanctioned event and the player flipped shit, claiming the judge was out of his mind to think he should be shuffling his (Italian) Tabernacle. At that point I show him the Tabernacle I have in play, and the tabernacle the guy next to me has in play. And the fact that I am playing all foil/FBB 43 lands deck, and that the guy on the otherside of him is playing a pimped tendrils list(not Bryant level pimp, but still more than his tabernacle). He shut up pretty quickly (and took his game loss for trying to play proxies).

Also, one last thing, assuming you're not cheating intentionally a deck that is less random will more often give you bad draws because the land will remain in clumps after the game the previous game.

Well he is talking about last time worlds was at san fran, which was 7 years ago.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Thanks:smile: Then, the question would be, can one practice riffle shuffle enough to do it perfectly and exploit it to stack a deck?

More commonly it's going to be slight of hand making it look like they are shuffling when they are not. To answer your question though, yes people can cheat while shuffling, either that or street magicians really know magic. Luckily WotC knows this and allows us to shuffle our opponents deck before each game.

[dahcmai]

I'd so play a random Soldier of Fortune in my sideboard if I saw someone using those.

[Sloshthedark]

top loaders (=are we all talking about that thick oversized plastic stuff)? is it tournament legal?

haven't met a guy even with triple sleeve in my entire magic life (that KMC curly design looks gay anyway) top loaders sound just ridiculous...

[BWM]

For shit and giggles, I once stuck battle of wits in toploaders...

[Technics]

Or play MWS/Cockatrice/MTGO.

That way, you don't need to worry about your cards degrading, or even wearing any pants.

You totally caused me to think "Why am i wearing pants right now" and to strip them off and enjoy the air.

High Five man!



Also you can do a pile shuffle where you riffle the piles back together. However i would have to agree with everyone else, just avoid toploaders.