TGIF - Thank God It's Flashback - Past in Flames Combo

[andrewlb]

Edit - Posted a better guide up, I'll post up my full sideboarding strategy soon

Alright - This is a Past in Flames deck that has been tested thoroughly and I just took it to my first tournament (Vestal Nov 5) and went 5-2 to make top 16 defeating Bant, RUG, BUG, Show and Tell and U/W. I'm posting this up so that people can test with it etc. I'm going to make a list of cards that people will suggest but are probably bad, try not to post things without doing things besides loose theory crafting (aka test the deck and then make suggestions)

I'll post the list then explain some basic things


4 Pyroblast
4 Past in Flames
3 Grapeshot
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Manamorphose
3 Lotus Petal

2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mountain
2 Island
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Empty the Warrens
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Chaos Warp
4 Leyline of Sanctity

The deck goldfishes turn 3, although you almost never have to go off that early. The most damage I've dealt in testing is 227 on turn 3 (basically you cast a ton of cantrips and do weird things like intuition for more intuitions getting as many grapeshots into your hand as possible then casting them then flashing back PiF and casting them again). This gives the deck a good way to play around Stifle because you almost always Grapeshot for way more than is necessary.

One of the reasons that this deck does well right now is the prevalence of Spell Snare which hits literally only single copies of Grapeshot and your 3 Manamorphose. The deck also has maindeck answers to hate bears in the form of Grapeshot (Grapheshotting Aven Mindcensor/Teeg as you go off or playing Lotus Petal and then Grapeshotting a Cannonist).

Basically Intuition is the nut high, it's hard to explain how you go off with the deck because there are a lot of lines of play but basically you cast rituals, cast Past in Flames, cast more rituals and then Grapeshot. Aka you need to test with the deck to fully understand the interactions. Being good with it is a lot about feeling it out like you would with ANT.

Common lines -
Intuition for Rite, Rite, PiF on your opponents end step - go off the next turn
Intuition for Rite, Rite, Rite if you already have Past in Flames in your hand
Ritual Ritual Ritual Grapeshot PiF Ritual Ritual Manamorphose Cantrip Cantrip Grapeshot

Going off guidelines - Cast all of your cantrips before you cast Rite of Flame so that you don't feel like a donk when you brainstorm into your fourth Rite of Flame after you cast the other three. Count your Mana/Storm before you do anything so that you know you have enough to go off/make the proper lines of play. Most importantly make sure you can create blue mana to cast Intuition for Grapeshot again (if you are going off in this fashion). Don't get blown out by a Spell Snare on your single Manamorphose.

Basic Intuition line of play -
Field - Island, Island, Ancient Tomb, Mountain
Hand - Intuition, Past in Flames, Seething Song, Rite of Flame (This is a bit of a win more hand)

Cast -
Intuition for Rite, Rite, Rite (off of Island, Ancient Tomb)
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
Seething Song
Past in Flames
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
Seething Song
Tap your second Island for blue
Intuition (here you can get whatever you want depending on how much storm you need to create, a simple case would be Grapeshot, Grapeshot, Seething Song)
Cast whichever card they gave you
Flashback Past in Flames
Seething Song
Grapeshot
Grapeshot

A more complicated line on the second Intuition might be going for Seething Song, Intuition, Manamorphose or something of the like, this process mostly involves a lot of counting mana on your part to know what you can get.

Basic matchup guide -

RUG/Bant/Thresy -

These match-ups game 1 are in definitely in your favor in my opinion, you basically work to sculpt your hand and go off when you feel you have enough protection, your life total is getting low, or you know you can go off because of Gitaxian Probe. Since people don't really know what is going on you can try to bait out counterspells with Seething Song (people generally Force if they think you are choked on Red) or make them use their force then go off next turn by flashing back PiF. Remember that you can Grapeshot dudes if you need to.

Postboard -
Your strategy mostly depends on whether or not they have Surgical Extraction (which I try to determine game 2 by whether or not they are playing Snapcaster Mage). Against Surgical I board out Intuitions because it is just a huge blowout and against RUG boarding out Intuition is sweet because they have very few targets for REB. You are bringing in Warrens to play around grave hate and have a solid way to win (you would be surprised at how easily 8 goblins gets there). A lot of the games you end up Emptying for 6 or so then emptying again through the use of a PiF. Playing around Surgical is weird and mostly involves not having too many of the same card in your hand (aka don't try to go off with three Rite of Flames), although I mostly just focus on casting an Empty in games 2 and 3 for a significant amount.

Do not at all be afraid to spend your Pyroblasts and REBs on Delver, as that is their best way of putting a clock on you.

U/W -

Preboard pretty much the same as RUG/etc.

Posboard-
Batterskull is a major obstacle for the deck because of how good it is against a horde of little Goblins. Chaos Warping a Batterskull is often necessary if you plan on winning with Warrens.

BUG -

Just as miserable as it is with ANT and High Tide, they Hymns against you aren't necessarily as good but it is by no means a good match-up. Try to go off with Warrens ASAP and lay the beats!

Zoo/Maverick/Non-blue decks -

Have fun gold fishing! Really in these match ups you just have to be conscious of your life total and play around Bolt and Fireblast as much as you can afford. Against maverick don't get blown out by Mindcensor or post board Bojuka Bog.

Postboard against Maverick can be obnoxious if they have a Cannonist or a hate bear + Mom. It is often worth keeping Petals in your hand so that you can cast Petal then Grapeshot to kill a Cannonist. Keep your eye out for Scavenging Ooze as well. Also be aware that Zoo can board into Pyroblasts for your Intuition.

Goblins also commonly boards Chalice/Leyline so be aware of those as well.

Enjoy!

[death]

When playing against GY hate do you basically bring in 4 Leylines + 4 EtW?

[andrewlb]

No you only bring in Empty the Warrens and if you think they are running permanent based hate (Crypt, Relic, Jailer, etc.) you bring in the Chaos Warp's and Wipeaway. Leyline is for your BUG, ANT and TES matchups.

[Klazam]

Since Brain Freeze usually needs less storm than Grapeshot to win, I'm curious why the Grapeshot over the Brain Freeze? Brain Freeze also acts as a way to mill yourself to get more rituals in the GY for the Past in Flames.

[andrewlb]

Brainfreeze works in that deck because it plays upwards of 16 Rituals, this deck only plays 8 meaning that you can't really freeze into many. There are some decks that can also deal with a brainfreeze (Emrakul, academy ruins decks, etc.) whereas Grapeshot is straightforward and is also really good for killing hatebears/confidants/delvers etc.

[Pich]

Grapeshot does something on its own, while Brain Freeze is a dead card. (Unless you are playing against some Enlightened Tutor or Counterbalance deck but it's not really relevant..)

You don't care about BF requiring less storm since storming isn't a problem with this deck..

[dahcmai]

I'll have to try this since it's quite interesting. One card I thought about when I saw it was Quiet Speculation. It's a single tutor for PiF, but it was a thought. Probably a bad idea, but it's something to keep in mind if you end up needing a tutor. Of course, I haven't tried it so I have no idea if that's even nessessary obviously though. I'll give it a shot myself and see what it might want to use.

What all have you tried so far anyway? It looks pretty good as is though.

[paK0]

It does look interesting, but is this better than ANT/TES?

They are probably equally consistent but they seem to be packing more disruption (this has only 4 in the maindeck) and show less vulnerability to gravehate.

[andrewlb]

I have been asking myself that for the entire time I've been building the deck (playing this vs. playing High Tide or ANT, (I'm not a big fan of TES)). One of the distinct advantages is the ability to play around Spell Snare. Another is that Past in Flames generally makes you a little more resilient to hand disruption (if they hymn your PiF it isn't a big deal). Also if you Ritual Ritual PiF and they Force you can go off again with the PiF in your yard vs. casting Infernal Tutor and in response cracking LED where you are screwed if they Force. Finally you can be at a much lower life total when you go off (vs. Ad Nauseum) since most of the time ANT can't IGG Loop against blue decks unless they have a lot of mana and can duress post IGG. All that being said, ANT is a half a turn to a turn faster, plays duress meaning that you can generally be sure when you go off that you have it and doesn't have the same types of graveyard issues that PiF does. As for High Tide I'm not sure, you are definitely faster but High Tide has a lot of resiliency going for it. Postboard it has pretty much the same Surgical Extraction issues that you do (although they can board out a high tide). I'll post up a full matchup analysis at some point this week and explain a lot of the interactions so you can get a better idea of where this deck shines vs. ANT. Although after this week I will also so that being able to kill Delver is a super advantage over ANT and High Tide.

As for Quiet Speculation - If there were better flashback cards besides PiF I think it could be sweet, however as is, Quiet Speculation is a bit mana intensive and makes PiF cost one more. Along this same vein - I did some testing with Merchant Scroll (Good with Wipeaway, Intuition and possibly adding a Pact to the main) and I think it might still have a place in the deck as a one or two of, then again Spell Snare makes the card a lot worse.

[dillonkbase]

Could you explain why pyroblast is better than pact here?

[ThomasDowd]

no LED? reasoning? I mean I guess not playing black lotus is good idea.

[puppektion]

Could you explain why pyroblast is better than pact here?

My guess would involve the fact that Pyroblast doesn't kill you...

[John Cox]

no LED? reasoning? I mean I guess not playing black lotus is good idea.

You need your hand for this deck, to win you need upwards of six mana, that means rituals and they generate more mana than one LED.

[Kich867]

You need your hand for this deck, to win you need upwards of six mana, that means rituals and they generate more mana than one LED.

I think his intention would be to play them, put your rituals on the stack since they're cheap to cast, then pop your LED's, play PIF from graveyard type thing.

[andrewlb]

LED - Tested it, it was a win more card by a lot. You don't need to crack LED as you go off (as in not in the same way that you cast Infernal Tutor and crack LED in response) since you can cast all your rituals then cast PiF and still hold up protection then crack it after. But the reason it got cut is because Lotus Petal does a better job on stopping you from getting choked on mana/red mana.

Pyroblast- This slot was initially 4 Pact of Negation however they are good and bad in the same matchups in the exact same way. Pact of Negation was worse because it is bad when you are casting Intuition on the turn before you go off as well as being bad at countering Clique. Pyroblast also hoses Delver and can counter an opponents Show and Tell etc. If Pact gets countered you can also get blown out by not being able to pay for it.

[dsck]

How does this deck handle Surgical Extraction?

[andrewlb]

Edited the original post, should explain some things

[Vacrix]

Brainstorming potentialities....

Noxious Revival -
Imagine post-Brainfreeze:
Noxious Revival --> LED + Gitixian Probe = LED, play LED, sac LED. So if you can only get to 4R after BF, you can invest no mana and still start a spell chain, paying 4 life instead.

Gamble -
Find PIF.

Entomb -
See above.

[Waikiki]

I'd read merchant scroll again.

[TkDodo]

Could you tell me why you opted for Preordain over Ponder in this deck?

[andrewlb]

Gamble/Entomb - The problem with these is that unlike ANT where you can just get Ad Nauseum, cast it then win, with this deck you need multiple cards in your hand to go off - Gamble is card disadvantage and can randomly blow you out, Entomb suffers along the same lines (minus the disadvantage) but also costs black and one of the strongest things about this deck is the ability to play with only basics.

Merchant Scroll - Reads exactly as I think it does, gets Intuition, Pact and Wipeaway, not sure what you were implying?

Noxious Revival - I think this card is a win more, I understand that there are lots of sweet lines of play with it but I'm fairly certain it is unecessary. I could see it being very good with Intuition if they force and then you put it back on top of your library, but that is fairly narrow, costs you a card and would be bad in a lot of other spots. I won't close my mind to it though.

Preordain - Initially I was running 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder 1 Preordain but then switched because of the reasons that High Tide wants Preordain. Overall you are trying to filter through your cards and not necessarily search for just one, making Preordain better. That being said the power of Intuition as an often instant win might push me towards a 3-2 split with the deck (3 Preordain 2 Ponder)

[TheyCallMeTim]

This thread needs more card tags, especillay the opening post.



I'll post the list then explain some basic things

4 Pyroblast
4 Past in Flames
3 Grapeshot
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Manamorphose
3 Lotus Petal

2 Volcanic
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mountain
2 Island
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Empty the Warrens
4 REB
3 Chaos Warp
4 Leyline of Sanctity

[death]

I somehow find the lack of blue kind of irritating in cases where I wanted to Intuition for the kill but short on :u:. So +1 Manamorphose +1 Volc (17 lands) -1 Mountain -1 Ancient Tomb for me.

Merchant Scroll can be good here but with an added risk of getting steam rolled by Snares, the only benefit I see from playing this over ANT is to avoid just that. Have you considered Dispel? against you know what. (Hint: non-blue)

[andrewlb]

Keep in mind that in your matches you are usually going off on turn 5 or 6 and generally have enough blue available. My first two turns I'm usually fetching islands then rounding off with mountains towards turns 3 and 4. Be careful about having too many volcs, in 7 rounds I got wastelanded I think only twice (one time it was a volc that I had in my opener and played out because I had plenty of land in hand and wanted to eat a waste so he would timewalk himself and the other was on an ancient tomb) and it was wonderful to not have to worry about it. I think that when you are goldfishing manamorphose is good but when you play actual matches (vs. blue decks) it loses value

I'm not sure what you are talking about? Most likely would be Chant or REB I would guess - I think if I was going to play Dispel I would probably rather play Flusterstorm, which is something I have definitely considered and don't have a definite opinion on

[GGoober]

You know, I actually dig the idea of Entomb. I never really considered it in PiF combo, but it seems to have huge potential pre and post-combo phase in ensuring consistent wins.

The issue with GY-hate is the deck's weakness but I don't think the deck folds to it. With the blue shell, you have Chain of Vapor and bounce for Leyline, Discard/counters for Extraction/Extirpate.

I do feel that this archetype will benefit more from LED than without it. (Even if LED does not feed to PiF, your cantrip and draws when comboing with PiF makes LED into Black Lotuses anyway). I know the OP has tested the deck a ton, but I believe that the OP's list is not the absolute way to build a PiF deck. I do enjoy the list and explanation because it's one of the better optimized list that explores what a PiF deck actually wants to do (Intuition is so broken in this deck both pre and post combo phase).

[andrewlb]

I don't think my list is fully optimized but trust me, the deck is very consistent, you don't fizzle and you have a very consistent turn 3, you don't need entomb. I'm not saying that the card is bad, and I do understand how sweet it is but it just really isn't worth it, especially for a third color.

LED- Maybe this will change people's minds. Until the day before the tournament I had tested this deck for three weeks playing with LED. The day before I cut LED's for petals which I had been playing in the board. Literally every game I played with Lotus Petal I was incredibly happy that it was Petal and not LED. I won a lot of games because I had the extra Red or Blue for Intuition or Pyroblast and the storm it generates postboard for Empty the Warrens is incredibly valuable

And yes the only grave hate you really care about is Surgical/Extirpate

[andrewlb]

A friend pointed out that I'm coming off as just continually shutting down people's ideas about cards so I want to address that. First off I really shouldn't have been lazy and just done a full write-up then submitted that to the established decks thread. I'm taking everyone's ideas into consideration and I'm still looking to push the deck further but really I just need to do the full write-up and move it over. Sorry if I've come off as pompous hahaha. Thanks guys and gals, cheers

[Final Fortune]

What's the reasoning behind Probe and Manamorphose, Probe doesn't seem really necessary for generating Storm, and I assume Manamorphose is for blue mana to cast Intuition again and/or chain cantrips?

The list seems a little disruption light, have you tried the full set of REB and Pyro?

[leegoo]

I've been testing a U/R PiF deck somewhat similar to this. Some things I would suggest you try.

- Cut the # of PiF. One is generally all you are looking for (and by the time you need a 2nd you can almost always find it)

- Lion's Eye Diamond. In this deck more than any other I've ever played it in (and I've played a LOT of storm combo) it just IS black lotus. No it doesn't flash back, but it's still amazing.

- The maindeck kill should be Brain Freeze. It acts as an enabler for you and as a kill for your opponent. If you are worried about Emrakul/Progenitus it's probably fine to still run a 1-of grapeshot (although if you run the LED's, I'd just replace it with a Tendrils as 20 storm is still quite a bit and between led/manamorph you shouldn't have any problem making bb2)

- Merchant scroll is quite good (especially if you run Bfreeze and Pact of Negation) as it sets you up for a t3/t4 kill (or just protection for your kill) and at worst just cycles into brainstorm, or some of your (possible) bullet answers in post board games.

- Pact of Negation should be somewhere in the 60, at least a 1 of if you run Scroll. 2 counters for 0 mana is pretty sick.

Ancient Tomb was something I never considered in my lists, great find. It can even allow a T1 kill (albeit very rarely and probably completely unnecessary) but just t1/t2 Intuition is pretty silly.

[andrewlb]

So you only have 5 cards that find PiF? I really need to see your list to provide any feedback since we seem to be running fairly different decks...

[leegoo]

So you only have 5 cards that find PiF? I really need to see your list to provide any feedback since we seem to be running fairly different decks...

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
2 Island

3 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
2 Past in Flames
3 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Brain Freeze
3 Intuition
3 Pact of Negation
2 Flex (Flusterstorm right now, but it's not all that impressive, possible that Blast is fine, although you can't scroll for it)

Finding a PiF is never the problem the deck has. The problem is an opponent who knows what you are up to countering/discarding one of your setup cards and following it up with a fast clock.

[andrewlb]

That's because you are playing 4 Merchant Scroll 3 Intuition, it completely changes your tutoring. I think playing the brain freeze version changes things, but have you tried it without LED? I cut it and it didn't change my deck's speed at all, the card is good but for me it was almost completely a win-more. It's not like playing Black Lotus, it's like playing Black Lotus when you have 15 mana floating, at least in my experience anyways

Your deck also looks like it needs a ton of blue to go off so I would see LED being more necessary, I really only need 2 blue for Intuition

[leegoo]

Sometimes LED is win more, but it also allows for plays you cannot otherwise make, especially in the earlier turns. Possibly in a heavier red version it would be alright to cut, but can't imagine that 0 is the right number ever, if only as a 1 of to go in random "i need mana" intuition piles.

[Darkenslight]

Quick aside: High Tide is comical with Volcs out.

[andrewlb]

@darkensligh somewhere there is a list floating around that uses high tide, turnabout, ect. but no time spiral, I'm not saying the list is good but it is out there ^.^

[andrewlb]

Can a moderate bin this thread please? Moved it to Established

[Choux]

What do you guys think about one or two Flusterstorm, it can protect the combo or increase hugely the storm count for very few mana ie: U Flusterstorm, FB it for again U and you got 4times the storm counters ...

[andrewlb]

Storm doesn't add to storm

[leegoo]

in the list I had it was clearly worse than either Pact (costing 0) or Blast (Costing R instead of U)

[iPhael]

With the reveal of "Faithless Looting", I feel like Past in Flames just got infinitely better. If you haven't seen this yet, take a look:


http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=126059&d=1321954388


This card is confirmed real, and at COMMON rarity. It feels like the perfect enabler. It's on ritual color, has flashback, and honestly makes think that dropping blue for straight up :br: might actually be viable. Between Wish, Tutors, Gamble, and Looting we have a ton of potential dig, and more reasons to run Cabal Ritual.

[K1w1]

Hey guys,
a friend of mine made the 1. Place in Iserlohn ( Germany ) with the following list:

//Spells
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
3 Past in Flames
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Grapeshot
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Tendrils of Agony
4 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
1 Rain of Filth
4 Dark Ritual

//Lands
1 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

//Sideboard
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Sudden Shock
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Extirpate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor

He played 7:0, but i forgot to ask against which decks...
(70 Players)

[miko]

He even wrote a tournament report on this forum!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22759-Being-On-Fire-7-0-with-Grinding-Station

If you are interested in how he won this tourney. :)

[Mr. Safety]

I am actively trying to work out a R/u list for Past in Flames using the Brain Freeze synergy. I'm hoping I can get some feedback from folks on how to tune this deck, as well as how to play it better (I seem to be fizzling a little too often...it may be due to a lack of Lion's Eye Diamonds.)

Current list:


Mana
4x Lotus Petal
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Volcanic Island (I'm using Steam Vents)
4x Shivan Reef
3x Mountain
2x Island

Rituals
4x Rite of Flame
4x Desperate Ritual
3x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Manamorphose

Dig
4x Brainstorm
4x Preordain
2x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Burning Wish

Business
3x Past in Flames
4x Brain Freeze

Protection
1x Flusterstorm
2x Dispel

Sideboard
4x Empty the Warrens
3x Goblin Bushwhacker
1x Grapeshot
1x Diminishing Returns
2x Echoing Truth
4x Spell Pierce


I know it's rough...I'm wondering if I can even pull it off reliably without Lion's Eye Diamond. I have tested the list a little bit, but it seems to combo out turn 3 fairly often, very rarely turn 2, and reliably turn 4 (which seems a little slow for legacy...)

[K1w1]

Its solid for an LEDless list. But I can't understand why you are playing 4 empty the warrens in your Sideboard. You play 1 burning wish, so isn't it too much? You only need 1. But for me, I prefer the list I posted at top, with the change of -1 grabeshot and +1 empty the warrens. I'm playing it now for a long time and your tendrils kills are awesome. Especially with a double tendrils kill.
Important too is, that you don't need that much higher storm count. In most of cases you need 7-8 + tendrils, because of some fetches and/or forces.
But ok, let me know your testgames/tournamentreports I'm rly interested in.
K1w1

[Mr. Safety]

My reasoning for not having Empty the Warrens maindeck and playing 4 in the sideboard is this:

1) My deck is susceptable to graveyard hate post-sideboard. Swapping out Brain Freeze for Empty the Warrens and Past in Flames for Goblin Bushwhacker provides a different line of attack that hopefully nullifies their sideboarded graveyard hate.

2) I still have Burning Wish available maindeck to fetch a singleton Empty the Warrens game 1. If I nuts-draw Burning Wish on turn one with enough rituals to make a hefty EtW, I'll go for it. I

3) If my opponent is playing Emrakul or any other maindeck protection against milling, I can Burning Wish for Grapeshot after milling into my graveyard with Brain Freeze. Past in Flames then allows me to flashback Burning Wish for Grapeshot.

I was thinking a singleton Burning Wish that can get a Grapeshot or EtW was more useful than maindecking one of either. Honestly, I probably need more Burning Wishes in the maindeck. I'd like to squeeze in at least one more (to get 2 in there) and maybe even get the count up to 3. I also think it's viable to mill myself and flashback Manamorphose for BB to play a singleton Tendrils out of my sideboard, enabled with Burning Wish. My experience so far is that Brain Freeze gets lethal most of the time with Past in Flames. Past in Flames seems to make for big storm counts, meaning I don't need a smaller count for a Tendrils kill. I really want to keep it 2 colors also...with only 14 lands, there are games where Wasteland could = big loss, and that's a risk I don't really want to increase with a 3rd color. I'm also debating a set of Simian Spirit Guide to speed up the goldfish rate so I can get a more reliable turn 2 kill.

I'm not sure what the best route is right now, but maybe others in this forum will help me with that? :wink:

[andrewlb]

You are very win condition light and I think that is the problem, my list runs 4 Intuition and your slot has only 1 burning wish there in it's place. I understand that since you are running brain freeze you need to run more rituals but you should probably find some room for win cons. I'm not sure if Intuition would be as good in your deck but I know that it is the card I always want to draw.

Maybe use caleb's brainfreeze list as reference too?
UR - http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-in-flames/
UBR - http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-killing-myself-on-camera/

He runs a grapeshot and an extra brainfreeze

[Mr. Safety]

I pulled on Caleb D's UR list heavily. The difference between my list and his are these:

1) He plays 4x Lion's Eye Diamond. I have none, therefore I opted for 2 more Lotus Petals and 2x Dispel.

2) He plays more fetchlands (total of 8) while I only play 4, along with Volcanic Islands (I'm using Steam Vents and Shivan Reef) I can work in more fetchlands, but I'm not sure they are completely neccessary (yet) I am aware that the synergy with Brainstorm can't be ignored and it may become fundamentally important to increase the count to at least 6 fetches.

3) He plays 4x Past in Flames, I only play 3.

4) He has a singleton Grapeshot in his deck, I have a singleton Burning Wish to get Grapeshot out of my sideboard (or an early Empty the Warrens if I nuts-draw the Wish in my opener or turn 1) I don't really see a big difference here, other than Burning Wish can be countered and Grapeshot technically cannot (other than with Stifle)

5) He plays 8 dig spells (4 each of Brainstorm and Ponder) while I play 10 (4 each of Preordain and Brainstorm, 2 Ponder)

I'm fairly certain those are the only differences. The real difference is Lion's Eye Diamond in my opinion, and that can make the difference between success and failure. While i have protection in my list with 3 maindeck counterspells, I don't think it makes up for the lack of explosive power with LED. I think it's time to dig deep and get some LEDs.

[rajang1991]

hi i'm new of the site,i'm so interested to this deck and i find a list on tc deck that have made top8 in a tournament of 156 person http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/visualview.php?iddeck=53860&id=7402 this is the link :smile:

[andrewlb]

Very interesting list, thanks for the post! On a first look it seems like stretching your manabase that far for silence over reb/pact is a little crazy

[John Cox]

Very interesting list, thanks for the post! On a first look it seems like stretching your manabase that far for silence over reb/pact is a little crazy

Any deck that uses LED is going to want want to use proactive disruption. (IE chants/silence, xantid swarm, duress. Something that doesn't become useless when you discard your hand to lion's eye diamond.)

[andrewlb]

Derp, makes sense

[rufus]

I am actively trying to work out a R/u list for Past in Flames using the Brain Freeze synergy. I'm hoping I can get some feedback from folks on how to tune this deck, as well as how to play it better (I seem to be fizzling a little too often...it may be due to a lack of Lion's Eye Diamonds.)
...
I know it's rough...I'm wondering if I can even pull it off reliably without Lion's Eye Diamond. I have tested the list a little bit, but it seems to combo out turn 3 fairly often, very rarely turn 2, and reliably turn 4 (which seems a little slow for legacy...)

Have you looked into a High Tide based approach?

[John Cox]

I know it's rough...I'm wondering if I can even pull it off reliably without Lion's Eye Diamond. I have tested the list a little bit, but it seems to combo out turn 3 fairly often, very rarely turn 2, and reliably turn 4 (which seems a little slow for legacy...)

I wouldn't over worry about your speed. Your not an Ad Nauseam based deck so you can win at one life and turn 3-4 is what zoo wins at and is miles faster than maverick. I have LEDs and use black/white and I get numbers similar to yours. What I think is more important is how you interact with the game state before you go off.

[Mr. Safety]

Have you looked into a High Tide based approach?

It seems that splashing Past in Flames into a Solidarity/Spiral Tide deck would be just ridiculous. Tide is reliant on untapping islands for mana and drawing huge amounts of cards. Flames is reliant on red rituals and abusing the graveyard by Brain Freezing yourself, along with having the alternative win conditions of Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens available game one. It operates very similarly to Solidarity/Spiral Tide in how the turns play out but the whole reason for splashing red is the availability of Past in Flames in your graveyard (should you be stopped/fizzle) and having a way to beat Emrakul game one by fetching Grapeshot or making a big Warrens army.

From John Cox:

I wouldn't over worry about your speed. Your not an Ad Nauseam based deck so you can win at one life and turn 3-4 is what zoo wins at and is miles faster than maverick. I have LEDs and use black/white and I get numbers similar to yours. What I think is more important is how you interact with the game state before you go off.

This is an incredibly useful comment, and one I haven't been able to articulate for myself. Gitaxian Probe seems like a big piece of this puzzle, but I don't have many other (any?) ways of proactively interacting with my opponent in blue/red before attempting the combo. Flusterstorm, Dispel, Spell Pierce, and Pact of Negation all help protect you once it gets started, but it's reactive. This is the crucial piece of info I need to take the deck from testing to refining.

[John Cox]

As much as in U/R you can't impact board development too heavily, flusterstorm can stop an opposing faster combo, or dredge player from setting up just as well as chant. Flusterstorming a turn one careful study is ridiculous. You can even red blast a jace, clique or meddling mage. (red blasts are really good against reanimator as their primary target is blue)

[Mr. Safety]

Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblasts are definately on my mind. I have some in the works with a trade, and they work so well in this setup due to the abundance of red mana available.

[andrewlb]

Your storm matchup is so bad that you will never want to play flusterstorm to try to improve it because it isn't worth the board space, just as a heads up. ANT and TES are faster than you, play duress and play chant, which actually just screws you at all points in the game (duress not as much).

[rajang1991]

i test the list i have posted and is fast really fast...it can go out at turn two for tendrill like tes and ant, intuition with some chant it's great combination and with past in flames is awesome...with aggro deck it's really simple, i have played with most tonight and a go out all the game at turn 2 or turn 3 without any problem...this deck it's great, i advice this deck to all player who love storm deck...sorry for the english but i'm italian XD

[John Cox]

Your storm matchup is so bad that you will never want to play flusterstorm to try to improve it because it isn't worth the board space, just as a heads up. ANT and TES are faster than you, play duress and play chant, which actually just screws you at all points in the game (duress not as much).

I was suggesting flusterstorms main deck as a pseudo silence. something like this,


4 rite of flame
4 pyretic ritual
4 lotus petal
4 seething song
3 brainfreeze
1 empty the warrens
4 burning wish
3 past in flames
3 manamorphose
2 gitaxian probe
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 dispel
4 flusterstorm
4 scalding tarn
2 arid mesa
2 misty rainforest
1 island
1 mountain
2 steam vents
1 crystal vein


^ would probably work well against storm (7 usefull pieces of interaction) and aggro (decent clock), you could also slow roll against stoneblade and other control and brain freeze yourself for 4 with 3 counters in hand. It would be alot better with real duals and LEDs and I would also endorse White for silence over dispel but that would require a tweaked manabase.

Edit:
to add silences go -4 fetches -2 basics + 4 cities +2 gemstone mines. With manamorphose, the rainbow lands and lotus petals you can cast the 4 silences easily.

[Mr. Safety]

I like that setup very much...and I think the white splash is inevitable (well, maybe black for Tendrils/Duress).

I was really thinking that if the deck doesn't stay R/u, there is no truly valid reason to play it over a TES/ANT deck that has 1-2 copies of Past in Flames available. Those decks have a proven record, and Past in Flames simply adds another weapon to the utility belt.

I have goldfished my list...and it isn't looking good. Turn 3 is not the average, it's closer to turn 4. This isn't good news...at all. Brain Freeze-ing myself isn't really a viable option without Lion's Eye Diamond. I'd rather just have Grapeshot/Empty the Warrens. Losing the Brain Freeze slots open up additional protection elements and the option of additional Burning Wishes.

I need to re-work this thing big time...or buckle down and get some LED's.

[K1w1]

Hey guys,
this is my following list:
//Spells
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
2 Past in Flames
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Tendrils of Agony
3 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
1 Rain of Filth
4 Dark Ritual
1 Sudden Shock

//Lands
2 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

//Sideboard
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Sudden Shock
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Extirpate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor

I think you can see, this is a similar list to the list i posted earlier.
I made some changes like removing grabshot,,-1 ponder,-1 scalding tarn,-volcanic island,-1 past in flames
I added +2 preordain,+1 bloodstained mire,+1 sudden shock,+1 badlands

I came to the conclusion that grabshot is to bad. Ok, it's nice against a gaddock teeg, but i think sudden shock is much better, because if the opponent has an active mother of runes, i can't kill teeg. And sudden shock can.
I also added the bloodstained mire + badlands, because badlands>volcanic imo.
I cutted the 3rd past in flames, because i hate it to have 2-3 of them in my hand and i think 2 are better than 3.
why preordain? The thing is, when i use brainstorm and don't have a fetchland/ponder to shuffle i lose 2 rounds doing nothing.

I know you are discussing about U/R versions, but i think adding black is nice. I don't like the brainfreeze version.

K1w1

[Mr. Safety]

I was suggesting flusterstorms main deck as a pseudo silence. something like this,


4 rite of flame
4 pyretic ritual
4 lotus petal
4 seething song
3 brainfreeze
1 empty the warrens
4 burning wish
3 past in flames
3 manamorphose
2 gitaxian probe
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 dispel
4 flusterstorm
4 scalding tarn
2 arid mesa
2 misty rainforest
1 island
1 mountain
2 steam vents
1 crystal vein


to add silences go -4 fetches -2 basics + 4 cities +2 gemstone mines. With manamorphose, the rainbow lands and lotus petals you can cast the 4 silences easily.

This will be the starting point, thank you for the list! I love the 4 maindeck Burning Wishes alongside the singleton Empty the Warrens. I might end up with 3 BW and adding in one Grapeshot, but this will be the starting point for testing. I absolutely love the 7 counterspells in the maindeck...this is where it can start competing outside of the white/black splash. I'm as stubborn as they come, and I still think that if you're splashing black or white then TES/ANT are better setups. The advantage of u/r is the stability of the mana-base so I don't lose to Wasteland.

[Redshift]

This will be the starting point, thank you for the list! I love the 4 maindeck Burning Wishes alongside the singleton Empty the Warrens. I might end up with 3 BW and adding in one Grapeshot, but this will be the starting point for testing. I absolutely love the 7 counterspells in the maindeck...this is where it can start competing outside of the white/black splash. I'm as stubborn as they come, and I still think that if you're splashing black or white then TES/ANT are better setups. The advantage of u/r is the stability of the mana-base so I don't lose to Wasteland.

It seems you should always be playing four Desperate Ritual before playing any Pyretic Ritual. The fact that you can splice them on to each other may not come up often, but can speed you up by a turn when it does.

Also, I think Brain Freeze is a much better main deck win condition than Grapeshot as it can be lethal with a few less storm and when you have no hope of making a lethal storm count, Brain Freeze can create a massive resource advantage with Past in Flames. Brain Freeze can also throw a serious wrench into the plans of other combo decks by milling their pieces into the graveyard in response to a big draw effect, e.g. Ad Nauseam, or just outright kill a dredge player or reanimator player who went for Jin Gitaxias.

As a side note, I went undefeated through seven rounds to split top 4 in a 44 man tournament this weekend with a very similar deck that is just straight UR. This archetype definitely has some serious potential.

[Piceli89]

As a side note, I went undefeated through seven rounds to split top 4 in a 44 man tournament this weekend with a very similar deck that is just straight UR. This archetype definitely has some serious potential.

List, please. Could you be the next Legacy Storm innovator?

[Mr. Safety]

It seems you should always be playing four Desperate Ritual before playing any Pyretic Ritual. The fact that you can splice them on to each other may not come up often, but can speed you up by a turn when it does.

Also, I think Brain Freeze is a much better main deck win condition than Grapeshot as it can be lethal with a few less storm and when you have no hope of making a lethal storm count, Brain Freeze can create a massive resource advantage with Past in Flames. Brain Freeze can also throw a serious wrench into the plans of other combo decks by milling their pieces into the graveyard in response to a big draw effect, e.g. Ad Nauseam, or just outright kill a dredge player or reanimator player who went for Jin Gitaxias.

As a side note, I went undefeated through seven rounds to split top 4 in a 44 man tournament this weekend with a very similar deck that is just straight UR. This archetype definitely has some serious potential.

I play 4 Desperate's and 3 Pyretic's IRL.

I am looking forward to a solid list from you, for sure. I think the key is that if I fizzle and can't kill with Brain Freeze against my opponent, then target myself and wait a turn, then flashback Flames and go for the win.

I would love a report as well. Logically speaking, the benefit of a 2-color storm deck seems really good.

[Redshift]

List, please. Could you be the next Legacy Storm innovator?

Haha, here is my current list:

4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Burning Wish
3 Past in Flames
4 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Eye of Nowhere
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
1 Firespout
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Pyroblast

A friend mentioned that it is very close to one created by Caleb Durward here:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-in-flames/

It is also very similar to a belcher list I used to run. The Past in Flames engine is much more resilient to hate than belcher though and the main deck burning wishes and Brain Freeze give you lots of options and outs. Empty the Warrens is the worst win condition in the deck because it gives the opponent a few turns to find answers, but it destroys people who sideboard heavily into graveyard hate and/or counterspells.

Here's an approximate (as I can't remember everything exactly) rundown of the tournament this weekend:

Round one:
? with Affinity

Game 1 I keep something like 2 rituals, manamorphose, probe, 2 land and ponder. He wins the roll and goes first turn Darksteel Citadel, 3x Ornithopter, a Memnite and a Signal Pest. I play land, and ponder seeing something like petal, song, wish. Draw Petal. Opponent plays a Myr enforcer and swings for 5. I draw song, play land, play petal, probe, draw wish, ritual, ritual, song, manamorphose for black, draw brainstorm, sac petal for blue, keep rite of flame and wish, cast both, wish for tendrils and win.

Game 2 he starts off almost the same but swings for 7 on his second turn. I chain a bunch of rituals and an led into brainfreeze on myself for 24 hitting 2 Past in Flames. Flashback PiF and brain freeze his deck into his graveyard.

Round two:
Matt with RBG aggro (Goyf, bobs, bolts, etc)

Game 1 he wins the roll and plays a Bayou. I draw and ponder keeping a hand that kills him next turn. He plays a land and goyf. I chain rituals and cantrips and once storm is at 10 just wish for tendrils and win.

Game 2 I sideboard out 2 brain freeze and a PiF for 3 Empty the Warrens. Matt mulls to 5 and goes 2x Tormod's Crypt. I have a bunch of cantrips and Empty in hand but need another ritual to get to 4 mana. I play land, ponder seeing rite, draw it and pass. He plays land, bird of paradise, pass. I draw, cast probe, seeing 2x Goyf, and chain rituals and cantrips into 16 goblins. He drops goyf, I swing and hit for 14, he draws and scoops.

Round 3:
Brendan with RG aggro (Kird apes, blood moon, root maze, strange stuff)

Game 1 he wins the roll and goes turn one Kird Ape. I draw and play a tarn. He swings for two and plays another ape and root maze (surprisingly annoying), I crack in response and get island. I play my tapped mountain :( and pass. He swings for 4 and plays burning tree shaman. I draw, play 2 LEDs chain rituals and cantrips into past in flames, cracking LEDs in response to bin wish and get RRRBBB, recast my graveyard and wish for tendrils.

Game 2, he goes land, ape, crypt. I have a sweet hand of a few rituals, cantrips, PiF and Brain Freeze. I play land and ponder. He swings with ape. I play mesa and pass. I think he plays shaman again and I brainstorm at his eot, putting back two lands and shuffling. I play my third land and cast a couple of rituals and cantrips into past in flames with UUR floating, he crypts in response. I allow crypt to resolve and with PiF on the stack brain freeze myself for 21. I use the last red to cast a rite of flame and proceed to flashback my graveyard. He scoops once I wish for tendrils.

Round four:
John with aggro loam + white (loam, punishing fires, GSZ...very cool deck)

Game 1 I think I won the roll here and play. I play land, ponder, and pass. He plays grove of the burnwillows, mox diamond pitching a cycle land I think and casts qasali pridemage. I draw, play land, pass. John plays savannah, knight of the reliquary and swings for 3. I draw and chain cantrips and rituals into a lethal tendrils.

Game 2 John gets an awesome hand with a lot of aggro and a second turn Gaddock Teeg. I think he also gets a chalice of the void and I lose after being unable to get a plan to come together due to Knight of the Reliquary wastelanding me a bunch of times exiling my graveyard with bojuka bog.

Game 3 I play draw/go trying to get enough mana to storm out. John gets out a second turn Teeg again thanks to GSZ and wastes one of my lands. He doesn't have much aggro so I just keep sculpting my hand. Eventually he plays chalice on one. I brainstorm in response and keep my two and three cost spells including a brainfreeze and a burning wish and shuffle the one costs back in. On my turn I cast desperate ritual into 2x seething song, petal, and led (only for storm). I manamorphose for 2 blue, drawing rite of flame, cast rite for storm (countered by chalice), cast burning wish for infernal tutor, crack petal for black, cast infernal revealing brainfreeze. I cast both brain freeze and mill his deck in the gy! This game was so cool...winning through Teeg and Chalice, heh.

Round 5:

I'm in first place and ID with the only other undefeated guy (Paul - not the guy I played in the finals) who is playing dredge.

We play four games for fun in which I completely demolish him. This deck beats dredge so hard. Brain freeze kills become really easy if they dredge a bunch and aren't able to kill you that turn.

Round 6:

I can ID again and still be guaranteed top 8 so I do. This guy was playing reanimator. We play two games for fun, game one I crush him with a huge past in flames. Game 2 we play draw/go a bit and a start casting rituals to avoid discarding. At some point he lets them go so I just go with it and get to another PiF with a bunch of good stuff in the gy. He flusterstorms it and I'm one mana short of being able to flashback and win :(

Round 7 (quarter-finals):

I'm against Paul with RUG tempo. Paul is a really good player and even won a local SCG open. We always have very good matches.

Game 1 we both know what each other is playing and Paul mulligans down to five to try and find a hand he thinks can win. He play a land and delver of secrets. I draw and cast a gitaxian probe seeing nothing relevant so I just chain cantrips and rituals into 16 goblins. Paul plays land, goyf and passes. He takes 14 on my turn and once he sees his draw he scoops.

Game 2 is crazy. We go back and forth for about 25 minutes, me trying to get a chain of rituals/cantrips going and him having answers to everything. I get surgically extracted for rite of flame and I think ponder just so he can see my hand and deck. At one point we're both getting low on cards in the library and I'm holding 3 brainfreeze. I cast probe to see what he has and see nothing too scary so I brainstorm and then brainfreeze him for 9 figuring I can finish him off next turn with the other 2 in my hand. He draws a surgical extraction and is able to hit my brainfreeze in the yard then slowly beat me to death with delver.

Game 3 I'm on the play again and it looks like it's going to be rough when I cast probe and see something like 2x spell pierce, 2x spell snare, and daze. We play draw/go for a bit. He eventually plays delver. I cast a few cantrips and he ends up extracting brainstorm to see my hand. I have another in hand so I cast it and put land (I think) and seething song back on top. He sees that I have a bunch of rituals but no business except manamorphose. Over the next few turns, delver beats me down to three life and I finally draw into ponder. My board is 4 land, 2x lotus petal and LED (so I didn't have to discard), and Paul's is three land and delver. He knows that I need manamorphose to resolve so I cast rite of flame into desperate ritual to try and draw out a spell snare. He doesn't bite, so with that mana I cast seething song which resolves into another seething song. I cast manamorphose, he spell snares, I pyroblast, he pierces and I pay leaving 3 red in the pool. Manamorphose resolves giving me two blue and drawing me another desperate ritual which I cast. I ponder and see the last card is ponder. I take that and ponder again hoping that I don't have to shuffle...the third card down is past in flames! I take PiF and cast it. I recast my graveyard and wish for grapeshot since storm is at 21 and I have seven mana (thanks to LED) to flashback past in flames and grapeshot again just in case he has the stifle. He just shakes my hand and shows me daze :)

That last match was epic, after which we did a Top 4 split for a Force of Will each and some store credit. Like I said before, I think this deck has potential.

[Darkenslight]

Sadly not anymore. There's a card named Grafdigger's Cage that stops cards from being cast from lib raries and graveyards, as well as stopping creatures from ETB from libraries and graveyards. It costs 1.

[Redshift]

Sadly not anymore. There's a card named Grafdigger's Cage that stops cards from being cast from lib raries and graveyards, as well as stopping creatures from ETB from libraries and graveyards. It costs 1.

Grafdiggers Cage only stops the Past in Flames route to victory. Also it is more narrow than other graveyard hate and easier to mitigate than Tormod's Crypt, via bounce. It also certainly isn't as bad for this deck as Chalice of the Void or Aethersworn Cannonist and both of those can still be dealt with easily.

Grafdiggers Cage looks really good against Reanimator and Dredge, in fact it singlehandedly pwns dredge. It also has a side benefit of hitting Natural Order (if anyone ever plays that again).

[andrewlb]

So undefeated 7-0 in the swiss actually meant ID'ing as well as only playing against 1 real deck (RUG)...

[Darkenslight]

Grafdiggers Cage only stops the Past in Flames route to victory. Also it is more narrow than other graveyard hate and easier to mitigate than Tormod's Crypt, via bounce. It also certainly isn't as bad for this deck as Chalice of the Void or Aethersworn Cannonist and both of those can still be dealt with easily.

Grafdiggers Cage looks really good against Reanimator and Dredge, in fact it singlehandedly pwns dredge. It also has a side benefit of hitting Natural Order (if anyone ever plays that again).

I guess it's going to make bounce an essential part of the maindeck, at the very least. Gonna cost an arm and a leg cash-wise.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm already playing Chain of Vapor x3 as a sideboard answer to hatebears/Sphere effects, I don't think this Grafdigger's Cage will hurt the deck too badly. Past in Flames goes out in favor of a full compliment of Empty the Warrens game 2, and maybe the Chains come in to bounce blockers.

I think I need to stop fighting the 3rd color splash and simply put 4x Burning Wish into my deck along with a Tendrils in the sideboard. It means a slightly different mana-base, but that's ok with me. My main problem (still) is the lack of LED's.

[Dark Ritual]

Bounce maindeck won't be needed even when this cage comes out. Who's going to play cage maindeck? Maybe terrible players will play it maindeck, but that card is going to be relegated to the SB in almost every deck. So MD bounce isn't needed, unless you want bounce for some other reason (gaddock teeg and other hatebears are occasionally maindecked.)

Also in a 2 color deck why are you only running 2 basics and 4 volcanic islands? Why would you ever need 4 volcanic islands, even UB ANT runs just 2 u. sea's, favoring a more fetch and basic oriented manabase i.e. 1-2 swamps and 2-3 islands. In a straight UR PiF build I personally would run 2 mountains and 2 islands along with 4 tarn, 2 bloodstained mire, 1 polluted delta, and 2 volcanic islands. Basics are sweetness and sometimes having just 2 basics isn't enough.

[Redshift]

So undefeated 7-0 in the swiss actually meant ID'ing as well as only playing against 1 real deck (RUG)...

You must be referring to my post but, clearly you misread. I said nothing about swiss:


I went undefeated through seven rounds to split top 4 in a 44 man tournament

Assuming some basic math skills I would imagine that you noticed that in a 44 man event going 4-0 essentially guarantees that you can ID into top 8. Another hint was the fact that I stated here:


I'm in first place and ID with the only other undefeated guy

I guess you're just so hardcore that you play out every match even after you have top 8 locked up?

Additionally, I'm not sure what constitutes a "real" deck under your definition. Of the seven I mentioned, four are listed in the DTB forum on this site and Affinity is in the Established forum...

In other news -


I'm already playing Chain of Vapor x3 as a sideboard answer to hatebears/Sphere effects, I don't think this Grafdigger's Cage will hurt the deck too badly. Past in Flames goes out in favor of a full compliment of Empty the Warrens game 2, and maybe the Chains come in to bounce blockers.

I think I need to stop fighting the 3rd color splash and simply put 4x Burning Wish into my deck along with a Tendrils in the sideboard. It means a slightly different mana-base, but that's ok with me. My main problem (still) is the lack of LED's.

I don't play any strictly black mana in the main deck as the only black spells I care about are 1x Tendrils of Agony and 1x Infernal Tutor. Aside from my own play mistakes, with 12 rainbow mana producers, I don't think I've ever been in a situation where I couldn't generate the proper mana colors for a win. Additionally, LED is totally, absolutely, insane in this deck, probably more so than in any other deck in Legacy.

As far as interacting with the opponent goes, I prefer treat them as a piece to the puzzle. This deck gives so many options when building up to a win that you can almost always play in such a way that a good chunk of the opponent's hate becomes irrelevant. The more disruption you add, the less explosive you become. Past in Flames does a good job at picking up the slack where resilience is concerned (unlike Ad Nauseam), and also lets you use your life total as a buffer to sculpt a very strong hand.

[Redshift]

Also in a 2 color deck why are you only running 2 basics and 4 volcanic islands? Why would you ever need 4 volcanic islands, even UB ANT runs just 2 u. sea's, favoring a more fetch and basic oriented manabase i.e. 1-2 swamps and 2-3 islands. In a straight UR PiF build I personally would run 2 mountains and 2 islands along with 4 tarn, 2 bloodstained mire, 1 polluted delta, and 2 volcanic islands. Basics are sweetness and sometimes having just 2 basics isn't enough.

For me, I'd say that the reason here is that I run ~3 lands less than ANT and more ritual effects. Very often I find myself opening up one land and needing a first turn ponder/brainstorm, followed by a second turn ritual. Also lands are free cards with Ad Nauseam while they are dead under a PiF engine. You need to maximize the amount of spells available for PiF to achieve maximum effectiveness.

You do make a good point, however, and I'll try reducing the number of Volcs in favor of basics to see how it works out.

[slaydo]

i just tested your deck against Junk and changing over 2 volcanics to mountains really makes your manabase a lot more resilient to wasteland shenanigans. I am looking for a new combo deck to play that won´t eat up a lot of resources financially. Methinks I just found it. :P:laugh:

[andrewlb]

What I'm saying is that the way you were phrasing things was misrepresenting the way they actually were. I didn't say that you lied about anything, simply that you


Additionally, I'm not sure what constitutes a "real" deck under your definition. Of the seven I mentioned, four are listed in the DTB forum on this site and Affinity is in the Established forum...


The decks that you played against were 1. Affinity (a cakewalk for any combo deck and one that shouldn't be heavily represented in any meta 2. Jund (not a deck) 3. RG root maze (not a deck) 4. Aggro Loam (a deck but rarely represented and another storm walkover unless they mise a chalice) 5+6. Dredge and reanimator, neither of which you played against, dredge would probably have been easy but reanimator is by no means an easy matchup. 7. RUG - The only blue deck you played the whole tournament

What I'm trying to say is that in a more developed meta/tournament you will often play all of your rounds against U/W / RUG / Bant type decks where you can't just roll through everything. I'm not saying that you didn't play well or anything I'm just trying to illustrate the point that any storm deck playing against those decks (or even a fair deck against some of the brews) would have crushed as well.

I also wasn't trying to say that you should play out your ID rounds but when you attack what I'm constituting as a real deck don't highlight two decks that you ID'd against lulz. Also what is the fourth DTB other than RUG Dredge and Reanimator?

[Redshift]

Also what is the fourth DTB other than RUG Dredge and Reanimator?

I probably miscategorized my 4th round opponent as aggro loam. His deck was very similar to the two punishing maverick decks listed here:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2012-01-15&end_date=2012-01-15&city=Los+Angeles

It's listed on the source in the DTB forum as GW/x maverick.


I also wasn't trying to say that you should play out your ID rounds but when you attack what I'm constituting as a real deck don't highlight two decks that you ID'd against lulz.

I did play against the reanimator deck and the dredge deck, just not for points. As I said in the report, dredge was a good matchup and I crushed him in all four games easily. Reanimator was a lot tougher and we went 1-1 in the games we played.

I didn't say anything that was misleading, you are assuming all sorts of things that I gave you no reason to assume. All I did was accurately detail the experience, while you are attacking me under the pretext that it wasn't "real" enough...Did you just want me to make up a cooler story wherein I crush hordes of pro players who are using only (blue) decks copied straight from the DTB forums? Sorry to dissapoint.

[John Cox]

Grats on the finish redshift.
@mrsaftey & thread, the 4 burning wish are needed for an alternate win condition in you opening hand having anything less than 8 win conditions in the deck is too few IMHO. Burning wish can get Grapeshot from the board or tendrils if you have manamorphose mana after past in flames.

I've been trying to 8 vs 7 in game 2 and 3 bringing in tendrils and duress effects instead of ETW it looks promising.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Care to share a list? I'm quite interested in what that looks like.

[Mr. Safety]

Grats on the finish redshift.
@mrsaftey & thread, the 4 burning wish are needed for an alternate win condition in you opening hand having anything less than 8 win conditions in the deck is too few IMHO. Burning wish can get Grapeshot from the board or tendrils if you have manamorphose mana after past in flames.

I've been trying to 8 vs 7 in game 2 and 3 bringing in tendrils and duress effects instead of ETW it looks promising.

Bingo...I'm working on getting more Burning Wishes. I have 2 now and the other 2 will be forthcoming soon. There are times when there will be a random turn 1-2 win from having an absurd opener with Burning Wish.

So according to your plan, 7 win-conditions would be:
4x Burning Wish
3x Brain Freeze

I like that setup, but I'm sort of leaning towards putting a Cunning Wish into the maindeck to get Freeze #4 from the board. That would get my win/cons to 8 rather nicely.

Sideboarding, expecting grave hate, I would swap out Past in Flames for Empty the Warrens. PiF is still available via Burning Wish, but only if it's safe to pull the trigger and combo out of the yard. Regardless, that would actually get my win-conditions actually up to 10:

4x Burning Wish
3x Brain Freeze
3x Empty the Warrens

That's the plan anyways. I like how it gets even more aggressive with it's game plan on g2 and g3, but I really want to make sure I have roughly 5-7 protections in the maindeck to fight the blue matchups.

Speaking of which, here is a question to the other readers of the thread: what is the best maindeck plan for approaching the blue matchup? My original plan was a mix of Dispel and Flusterstorm. I don't have any Force of Will, and I don't think it supports the deck very well anyways. Along with what the right cards should be, what should the count be: 5,6,7, or more?

[John Cox]

Care to share a list? I'm quite interested in what that looks like.

This has been working really well for me, post board vs control the only changes are -3 brainfreeze +3 tendrils unless you feel you need blasts or bounce. Typically you go 8 Vs 7 on them on turn 5 with a burning wish and back up or a tendrils and cantrips.
The 4 color mana base is good for all the reasons it's good in TES and I play this over TES because I can win on turn 5 or later without worrying about my life total. I know TES has IGG and PIF but I always feel back into a corner when going those routes.

4 lion's eye diamond
4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame
4 lotus petal
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
2 gitaxian probe
2 duress
4 silence
4 burning wish
3 brainfreeze
1 empty the warrens
3 manamorphose
3 past in flames
2 Gemstone mine
3 city of brass
4 scalding tarn
2 volcanic island
2 underground sea
1 crystal vein
//sideboard
4 tendrils of agony
3 empty the warrens
1 grapeshot
1 past in flames
1 pulverize
1 duress
3 pyroblast
1 echoing truth

[Kich867]

A past in flames archetype is something I'm pretty interested in building lately. I happen to have Volcanic Islands already, so I wanted to play something that I already had the land for since I can't really afford other stuff.

As awesome as U/R Delver is, I can't help but feel it's success will be short-lived. People rode on the back of Price of Progress and punished the greedy mana bases, people have adjusted, and the deck feels less stellar than it did previously.

I can only realistically afford to purchase a playset of either Intuition or Lion's Eye Diamonds. I'm inclined to lean towards LED's since they're such a combo-staple and intuitions would be very specific to this deck, but if you had to purchase a playset of one or the other for this archetype which would you choose?

It seems to me that people are already leaning heavily towards LED lately anyways. I can see the benefits of really making that combo turn easier with it, but I also see the benefits of essentially tutoring your own win condition EOT.

[Kagehisa]

Nobody cares about Psychic Theft, the (more expensive) blue Duress or Overmaster for a strict U/R version, since you cannot play counterspells because of LED...?