Legacy is doomed. SCG jumping on board the "Ban Brainstorm" wagon. :(

[DragoFireheart]

If Snappy were red and Delver were black, we wouldn't hear a peep out of anyone.

[Sims]

Bro, it's too early in the morning for this kind of nonsense. As you were...
1 Island
5 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding tarn
6 Other Red Fetch

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Brainstorm


Seems reasonable to me.

[I am the brainwasher]

I am truly sorry to disappoint some of you guys but Snapcaster is already in some Burn-decks. This is no joke at all. The first time I saw it was at a GP-Amsterdam side-event, and you know what? The guy who played it did quite well with it and made an overall competent appereance as a Legacy-player in general.
I talked with him quite a bit, because I was truly interested in his deck and he told me that he and his mates tested it on MTGO heavily and it was their deck of choice for the GP. Really.
I am testing different versions of UR-Burn at the moment and I am quite impressed how awesome Brainstorm, Snapcaster and Delver of Secrets fit into that shell and abandon that annoying variance of the deck.
Again, this is no joke at all. Better prepare for 1st turn fetch Volcaninc Goblin in the near future:tongue:!

[DragoFireheart]

1 Island
5 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding tarn
6 Other Red Fetch

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Brainstorm


Seems reasonable to me.

Oh god that is hilarious I have every one of those cards besides price of progress. I may go try it later...

[Fl0do]

We now have the 9th of November, the B&R update will be on 20ieth of December. Isn't it a little bit too early to theorize what cards should be banned? I mean Innistrad is ~1 month old and the metagame is still shifting and settling.

I think it is ridiculous to determine the format's culprit by almost one major tournament series (for me it looks like that).
Admittedly blue got some nice tools in Innistrad, but I think the format will adapt if you give it some time.

Calm down folks ;)

[nedleeds]

Oh god that is hilarious I have every one of those cards besides price of progress. I may go try it later...

The last thing Burn wants is to top deck more mountains. Brainstorm helps out a great deal in that regard. I think the deck needs MO@R GUT SHOT though.

[caiomarcos]

I am truly sorry to disappoint some of you guys but Snapcaster is already in some Burn-decks. This is no joke at all. The first time I saw it was at a GP-Amsterdam side-event, and you know what? The guy who played it did quite well with it and made an overall competent appereance as a Legacy-player in general.
I talked with him quite a bit, because I was truly interested in his deck and he told me that he and his mates tested it on MTGO heavily and it was their deck of choice for the GP. Really.
I am testing different versions of UR-Burn at the moment and I am quite impressed how awesome Brainstorm, Snapcaster and Delver of Secrets fit into that shell and abandon that annoying variance of the deck.
Again, this is no joke at all. Better prepare for 1st turn fetch Volcaninc Goblin in the near future:tongue:!

I guess that says it all.

[Rizso]

Thoughtlace is clearly the problem its making every card blue!

Cant say im to happy about the Delver being blue, Its effect is more red. Chance effect on it. But guess it didnt go to red as then it would be a werewolf and they needed a blue flipcard. Sadly flavor seem to made it. Mad scientist turns into an insect hybrid wich is very much blue.

Question imo is more why Megaman was made blue.

Would like to see them print more non-blue eternal cards or cards that punish blue more.

Mean look at the m12 red sideboard card and compare it to the blue one..
Flashfreeze vs Combust... Combust doesnt even kill the Consecreted Sphinx.. Is it strange red is none existing anywhere? They get Worse cards then other colors with crappy board cards. Blue only got 1 enemy color.. Red is a rare color. But why do I care not like im gonna play red in standard anyway...

[Catitas]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/23003_Vintage_AvantGarde_Is_Vintage_Too_Fast.html

another article Demars talks about banning brainstorm too

[Koby]

1 Island
5 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding tarn
6 Other Red Fetch

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Brainstorm


Seems reasonable to me.

About 90% similar to a deck my friend Marc played at the Legacy Open. Promptly lost to Belcher round 1.

[Admiral_Arzar]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/23003_Vintage_AvantGarde_Is_Vintage_Too_Fast.html

another article Demars talks about banning brainstorm too

The vintage part of that article made me LOL. I love it when blue control players cry about Dredge, in any format. The guy obviously hates combo with a passion, and anything he says should probably be taken with a grain of salt as a result. I do agree that Blightsteel was a stupid printing, however.

But anyways, back on topic. His reasoning for a Brainstorm ban was entirely based on Brainstorm enabling combo. It does enable combo, true. However, it's basically never the combo decks enabled by it that dominate the format, so I don't see the issue from that angle. Even during the Mystical Tutor era, combo was not dominant (Hulk-Flash was the only time I can recall where combo was actually dominant in Legacy).

[Sims]

About 90% similar to a deck my friend Marc played at the Legacy Open. Promptly lost to Belcher round 1.

12 Blue cards + islands in the main, could easily board Forces/Spell Pierces.

[Richard Cheese]

About 90% similar to a deck my friend Marc played at the Legacy Open. Promptly lost to Belcher round 1.

What about the other 7 rounds?

[Koby]

12 Blue cards + islands in the main, could easily board Forces/Spell Pierces.

Or you could run REB/Pyros.


What about the other 7 rounds?

I think he ended up 2-3 after playing against Dredge, then went to draft. The list looks solid, but at the end of the day it's a Burn deck without the ability to interact favorable.

[xfxf]

I'm not very good at making my point across in these types of discussions however I want to throw this question out in the open.

Banning cards such as Brainstorm is nerfing a color because it is overpowered. However we "mostly" play eternal formats for the power level. So isn't nerfing colors and trying to trim them to the same underpowered level actually nerfing the whole format and the game? Isn't it a better approach to ask for better cards for other colors so that they can all be powerful and playing Legacy can actually feel more empowering than playing Standard or Modern?

Color blue is inherently stronger than other colors because the flavor of the color implies that it is the color of the mind. It provides greater strategic options. Even without Brainstorm blue will be nerfed yet still more powerful than other colors. I don't think the solution is banning the key cards of blue until it is underpowered. As a legacy player I want to be able to use my old cards and do broken things with my deck. With Brainstorm out of the format I could find it more appealing to start a slower investment process into Vintage.

[Koby]

Color blue is inherently stronger than other colors because the flavor of the color implies that it is the color of the mind. taking every other color's abilities.

Direct damage? CHECK. (Psionic Blast, Mind Bomb)
Discard? CHECK. (Mind Bomb, Amnesia, Clique, Piracy Charm)
Creature removal? CHECK. (Pongify, Control Magic, etc)
Land destruction? CHECK. (Land Equilibrium, Mana Vortex, Annex, etc)
Recursion? CHECK.

R&D has been systemically breaking down any distinction between other colors and Blue, continuing to push the envelope with Blue effects, and stopped printing those cards in those colors.

We mise well just concede that Blue is the only color of Magic, and just make every card Blue.

[Solar Ice]

Land destruction? CHECK. (Land Equilibrium, Mana Vortex, Annex, etc)
.

You forgot Stifle, the best LD ever printed :tongue:

Anyhow, unless they ban like a dozen blue cards, the colour will always be head and shoulders above the others. Players do after all like some skill in their MtG. Cards like Brainstorm are, above all, fun to play. One just has to look at Modern in order to see what a Blue-neutered format is like, where all the fun stuff is banned. I wonder why there's practically no interest in Modern? :smile:

I certainly don't want Legacy to go down the same road.

[bkemke]

I think about how the vintage community handles strong cards completely differently - take for example Bazaar of Baghdad.

Dredge won the vintage championships and some familiarity with vintage Dredge, Bazzar is pinnacle to the deck - however we don't have people clamoring for it's restriction.

Instead, the vintage community responds by dedicating a large percentage of their sideboards (and sometimes their maindeck) to beating dredge.

Additionally, they understand that Dredge is an important pillar of the metagame and without this pillar, the balance suffers. A similar case can be made about the inclusion of Nature's Claim in vintage maindecks.

Here, it seems easier to complain about Brainstorm's presence than innovate. Most colors can dedicate sideboard hate and even pack some maindeck surprises - IMO REB has never been better as a maindeck choice!

Red - REB, Pyroblast
Green - Choke (amazing choice against a blue deck with small land count)
Black - Duress, Thoughtseize, Inquisition
White - Grand Abolisher, Aven Mindcensor (not as good as the others but white has always had poor answers to white)

[(nameless one)]

Or just go Chalice @1

[DragoFireheart]

Or just go Chalice @1

People really need to play more Chalice Sphere decks. They are good against Blue and combo decks.

[into_play]

When I read the SCG event coverage and these are the kind of plays I'm looking at from the Quarterfinals and on... It doesn't really make me want to give a crap about what the opinions coming from said SCG results are showing anyone...

Quarterfinals: Alex Bertoncini vs. Tony Murata (http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/144_quarterfinals_alex_bertoncini_.html)

(Tries to rush the KotR under no pressure played right into a Daze. He even lucks out and gets it back a turn later from Exhume, and apparently even though he's got the StP in hand... Decides to wait until after Gitaxias draws before trying to remove him? :eyebrow: To the shock and awe of precisely zero people, it gets FoW'd after the draw 7.)


I'm sorry, but I am Tony (who was playing against Alex) and these criticisms are simply not true. Where did you get that commentary from? It is not written on the starcity write-up, and the match was not broadcast on the live feed. Even if he had the Swords in hand the turn Jin came into play, he did not have the mana to cast it (hence the reason I was able to Daze his Knight in the first place).

[boneclub24]

People really need to play more Chalice Sphere decks. They are good against Blue and combo decks.

So we heard you invested half your hand and a chunk of life into a Trinisphere only to have it countered. Now I hear you are running a deck full of subpar cards.

[Mr.C]

I saw this as the thread title, "Legacy is doomed. SCG jumping..."

My stomach dropped and I thought it was "SCG jumping to modern on Sundays"

I'm very relieved that its just brainstorm banning worries.

Same here.

Screw you OP, I nearly had a stroke!

[DragoFireheart]

So we heard you invested half your hand and a chunk of life into a Trinisphere only to have it countered. Now I hear you are running a deck full of subpar cards.


Master of Etherium
Lodestone Golem
Etched Champion
Cranial Plating
Chalice of the Void


Those are bad cards?

[Koby]

Master of Etherium
Lodestone Golem
Etched Champion


Those are bad cards?

In Legacy, yes.

[DragoFireheart]

In Legacy, yes.

Someone needs to play against steel stompy.

[Tammit67]

Master of Etherium
Lodestone Golem
Etched Champion
Cranial Plating
Chalice of the Void


Those are bad cards?

The decks these cards are featured in are both inconsistent when compared to other choices and vulnerable to all sorts of hate. Legacy does not have enough accelerants readily available to ensure your timings for sphere effects aren't horribly late

[xDITx Force of Will]

Someone needs to play against steel stompy.

Except that deck loses to g2 and g3.

Any SB just shits all over that deck, not to mention its clunky and easy to disrupt on its own.

[DragoFireheart]

Except that deck loses to g2 and g3.

Any SB just shits all over that deck, not to mention its clunky and easy to disrupt on its own.

So what? Every deck has a weakness. It's an aggro deck with good game against blue and combo decks. It'd be ridiculously overpowered if it wasn't as clunky as it was.

[boneclub24]

Master of Etherium
Lodestone Golem
Etched Champion
Cranial Plating
Chalice of the Void


Those are bad cards?

When your turn 1 lock piece gets countered, yes, those are terrible cards in this format lol

[Gheizen64]

When your turn 1 lock piece gets countered, yes, those are terrible cards in this format lol

More like, when you have to pray the mana gods to even cast something T1 and T2 and T3 etc...

The deck is so bad it isn't even fun. And i tinkered for years with stompy variants, there is just no reason to use tombs and cities to cast spells when colored spells are just better 99% of the cases.

[Intet's Attendant]

Honestly, it would be so much easier if there were no colors in magic.

Then we could actually judge a card's power level without being baised based upon that card's color.

And we wouldn't be so concerned by the fact that certain decks run more of one color than another. We would actually understand why certain cards are being played over other cards, instead of certain colors over other colors.

Honestly, cards should have been color coded based upon their type (instant, sorcery, enchantment, creature) rather than by their effect. That way there would actually be a functional difference between the five colors rather than an arbitrary one based upon the different dual lands you happen to run.

[(nameless one)]

Honestly, it would be so much easier if there were no colors in magic.

Then we could actually judge a card's power level without being baised based upon that card's color.

And we wouldn't be so concerned by the fact that certain decks run more of one color than another. We would actually understand why certain cards are being played over other cards, instead of certain colors over other colors.

Honestly, cards should have been color coded based upon their type (instant, sorcery, enchantment, creature) rather than by their effect. That way there would actually be a functional difference between the five colors rather than an arbitrary one based upon the different dual lands you happen to run.

For some reason, I am reminded of other card games out there.

[TsumiBand]

Honestly, it would be so much easier if there were no colors in magic.

Then we could actually judge a card's power level without being baised based upon that card's color.

And we wouldn't be so concerned by the fact that certain decks run more of one color than another. We would actually understand why certain cards are being played over other cards, instead of certain colors over other colors.

Honestly, cards should have been color coded based upon their type (instant, sorcery, enchantment, creature) rather than by their effect. That way there would actually be a functional difference between the five colors rather than an arbitrary one based upon the different dual lands you happen to run.

This doesn't really make Brainstorm any different than it already is, though. Even if issues of mana color went out the window, I still don't think every deck would be 'the best Blue effects in the game'. We'd still be picking the 60 best cards for our particular gameplan.

As it stands, there are non-Blue decks not splashing for Brainstorm and Blue decks not running it. Compare that to ever-present win condition Tarmogoyf. How often in deckbuilding is it a bigger mistake to not splash for Goyf than it is to not run Brainstorm?

[BenBleiweiss]

I saw this as the thread title, "Legacy is doomed. SCG jumping..."

My stomach dropped and I thought it was "SCG jumping to modern on Sundays"

I'm very relieved that its just brainstorm banning worries.

I know this is late in the discussion, and slightly off-topic, but I just wanted to say:

1) We're very happy with Legacy Attendance,
2) Think Legacy is a fantastic constructed format with a generally healthy metagame
3) Will continue to support Legacy as the main event on Day 2 of our Opens and
4) We have continued to see Legacy attendance grow over the course of the past year!

Our support of Modern over 2012 at the Open Series will be in the form of Modern Challenge events, much like we have the Legacy Challenge event on Saturday night. The Modern Challenge events will be in addition to the already-existing events, so no Legacy events will be replaced (IE, we will still have the Legacy Challenge on Saturday, and we will continue to have our Legacy Opens on Sunday!)

- Ben Bleiweiss
- Director of Sales, StarCityGames.com

[Koby]

I know this is late in the discussion, and slightly off-topic, but I just wanted to say:

1) We're very happy with Legacy Attendance,
2) Think Legacy is a fantastic constructed format with a generally healthy metagame
3) Will continue to support Legacy as the main event on Day 2 of our Opens and
4) We have continued to see Legacy attendance grow over the course of the past year!

Our support of Modern over 2012 at the Open Series will be in the form of Modern Challenge events, much like we have the Legacy Challenge event on Saturday night. The Modern Challenge events will be in addition to the already-existing events, so no Legacy events will be replaced (IE, we will still have the Legacy Challenge on Saturday, and we will continue to have our Legacy Opens on Sunday!)

- Ben Bleiweiss
- Director of Sales, StarCityGames.com

This is reassuring. Thanks for your and SCG support of the Legacy format!

[dontbiteitholmes]

I know this is late in the discussion, and slightly off-topic, but I just wanted to say:

1) We're very happy with Legacy Attendance,
2) Think Legacy is a fantastic constructed format with a generally healthy metagame
3) Will continue to support Legacy as the main event on Day 2 of our Opens and
4) We have continued to see Legacy attendance grow over the course of the past year!

Our support of Modern over 2012 at the Open Series will be in the form of Modern Challenge events, much like we have the Legacy Challenge event on Saturday night. The Modern Challenge events will be in addition to the already-existing events, so no Legacy events will be replaced (IE, we will still have the Legacy Challenge on Saturday, and we will continue to have our Legacy Opens on Sunday!)

- Ben Bleiweiss
- Director of Sales, StarCityGames.com

Seems on topic to me, keep up the support for Legacy and I'll keep coming to Opens when I can.

[dahcmai]

Good, watching Modern was pretty boring.

[lordofthepit]

I know this is late in the discussion, and slightly off-topic, but I just wanted to say:

1) We're very happy with Legacy Attendance,
2) Think Legacy is a fantastic constructed format with a generally healthy metagame
3) Will continue to support Legacy as the main event on Day 2 of our Opens and
4) We have continued to see Legacy attendance grow over the course of the past year!

Our support of Modern over 2012 at the Open Series will be in the form of Modern Challenge events, much like we have the Legacy Challenge event on Saturday night. The Modern Challenge events will be in addition to the already-existing events, so no Legacy events will be replaced (IE, we will still have the Legacy Challenge on Saturday, and we will continue to have our Legacy Opens on Sunday!)

- Ben Bleiweiss
- Director of Sales, StarCityGames.com

Awesome, thanks for the information.

[Octopusman]

I know this is late in the discussion, and slightly off-topic, but I just wanted to say:

1) We're very happy with Legacy Attendance,
2) Think Legacy is a fantastic constructed format with a generally healthy metagame
3) Will continue to support Legacy as the main event on Day 2 of our Opens and
4) We have continued to see Legacy attendance grow over the course of the past year!

Our support of Modern over 2012 at the Open Series will be in the form of Modern Challenge events, much like we have the Legacy Challenge event on Saturday night. The Modern Challenge events will be in addition to the already-existing events, so no Legacy events will be replaced (IE, we will still have the Legacy Challenge on Saturday, and we will continue to have our Legacy Opens on Sunday!)

- Ben Bleiweiss
- Director of Sales, StarCityGames.com

Ben, I'm so thankful that you exist.

Now hurry and win the lottery so you can buy out wotc and remove the reserve list.

[Einherjer]

No dont ban brainstorm. I want this Snap/Stoneforge-Controldecks to be everywhere - So I can crush them with my SneakShow...

:)

[bruizar]

Zoo is more consistent than most blue decks. Burn/removal, lands, dudes. Hell, BURN is more consistent than any deck. Burn and lands. Clearly consistency alone isn't enough.

Combo is the clear reason people play blue. They get some consistency from Brainstorm and Force of Will to stop broken combos so they can actually play beyond turns 1, 2, and 3.

I think TheDarkShineKnight is right though. Brainstorm fights variance and variance is the reason why a lot of decks lose to them selves. Luckily, we have Sensei's Divining Top, which is a colorless solution to the problem. That said, I believe that we need color-specific cards that help each color's consistency. Green Sun Zenith and Sylvan Library do what Brainstorm does for Green.

The problem of red is that they always tack on the 'discard at random' on its cantrips. Cards like Gamble, Control the Court/Goblin Lore, and Desperate Ravings are some examples. This nullifies the consistency, which lets those cards function badly. IF they had made Snapcaster Mage red, it would make more sense. You could play with cards such as Gamble and use Snapcaster Mage to cast the discarded spell. Even though this might still not be competitive enough, it would make a lot more sense to do this. The best card red has right now, is Burning Wish, but that card is simply bad. The reason for this is because it costs twice as much as brainstorm and gives 3 times less cards than Brainstorm. It clutters your sideboard and does nothing against bad topdecks (which is important for planning your game in the longterm).

White doesn't have anything to show for either. Tithe and Land Tax function differently. They give card advantage, but do not help reduce variance (Technically they help increase the value of your topdecks, but you still have no control over it unless you're using something like Brainstorm or Scroll Rack in conjunction.

Black has little to manipulate its library. It has tutors, but those suck for the same reason as Burning Wish. The only thing tutors really help do is to fuel degenerate combo decks. Grim Tutor, Entomb and Infernal Tutor are all combo cards. Mono black is reliant on Sensei's Divining Top and can do so in conjunction with Dark Confidant, but this costs 4 or more mana (top, confidant, and at least one activation). This compares pretty badly with Brainstorm and even then Brainstorm is simply played in conjunction with Dark Confidant.


The only colorless options we have right now are Birthing Pod, Sensei's Divining Top and Scroll Rack. Those simply don't measure up against something as efficient as Brainstorm.

What we need is topdeck manipulation that is very colorpie specific and narrow. Green Sun Zenith is a great example of this. It doesn't get any other creatures except for green ones, so you can only play it with green creature strategies. Silver-bullets such as Scavenging Ooze dramatically increase GSZ's viability.

[UnderwaterGuy]

I think it's a little bit silly to call Burning Wish "simply bad".That card is a tutor that searches for the one card you need while Brainstorm gives you access to the top three.

The argument you used against it applies to stuff like Demonic Tutor as well and I don't think anyone believes that is bad.

[Intet's Attendant]

This doesn't really make Brainstorm any different than it already is, though. Even if issues of mana color went out the window, I still don't think every deck would be 'the best Blue effects in the game'. We'd still be picking the 60 best cards for our particular gameplan.

As it stands, there are non-Blue decks not splashing for Brainstorm and Blue decks not running it. Compare that to ever-present win condition Tarmogoyf. How often in deckbuilding is it a bigger mistake to not splash for Goyf than it is to not run Brainstorm?

Exactly. But then you can judge whether or not Brainstorm is too powerful without simply saying "it makes people run too many blue cards in their deck". The real question should be "what does Brainstorm do during the game that makes it so powerful, and is it too powerful?"

People run so many blue cards because blue cards give players much needed effects. If Brainstorm was printed in red or green instead, players would still run the card because the effect is the same. What matters is not the color, but what the card itself does.

The only time color really matters is either in pauper (where going 2-color can be difficult) or in standard, but in legacy color is hardly ever an issue. Maybe if Force of Will, Brainstorm, Jace, Daze, and Snapcaster were each different colors it would matter, but this is of course not the case.

[jrw1985]

Doesn't it seem entirely logical and intuitive that, given the rising power level of Legacy, a card restricted in Vintage will eventually need to be banned in Legacy as well?

[UnderwaterGuy]

Doesn't it seem entirely logical and intuitive that, given the rising power level of Legacy, a card restricted in Vintage will eventually need to be banned in Legacy as well?

No. The formats are pretty different.

I don't think Merchant Scroll/Gifts/Thirst/Lotus Petal/Ponder/Trinisphere will be getting banned any time soon either.

[Tao]

No. The formats are pretty different.

I don't think Merchant Scroll/Gifts/Thirst/Lotus Petal/Ponder/Trinisphere will be getting banned any time soon either.


Still, pointing to other formats is legit. Merchant Scroll has no Ancestral Recall to get, Lotus Petal no Y. Will, 3-Sphere no Workshop, Gifts no Will, Lotus, Recall insanity. For Brainstorm both formats have Fetchlands as the main synergy.
About Ponder: This card is actually an argument to ban Brainstorm. Legacy is in terms of power level somewhere in between Vintage and Modern. Not only is Brainstorm not allowed in either Modern or Vintage (obv. BS would be banned in Modern if it was printed with a Modern frame). Both formats even decided to ban a card-quality cantrip that is about a hundred times worse than Brainstorm. I wouldn't mind to see Ponder banned alongside Brainstorm, but first things first.

[dahcmai]

I wouldn't mind Brainstorm banned if Ponder/Preordain didn't follow it. If they axed them all, I'd be quite annoyed and I'm sure if they took out Brainstorm, the rest wouldn't be far behind since they are the obvious replacements.

I do kind of want to see Discard become useful again. Thoughtseize and Hymn have turned into more of pre-emptive counters than discard spells anymore and that's sad. I kind of miss the old Pikula style decks.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Still, pointing to other formats is legit. Merchant Scroll has no Ancestral Recall to get, Lotus Petal no Y. Will, 3-Sphere no Workshop, Gifts no Will, Lotus, Recall insanity. For Brainstorm both formats have Fetchlands as the main synergy.
About Ponder: This card is actually an argument to ban Brainstorm. Legacy is in terms of power level somewhere in between Vintage and Modern. Not only is Brainstorm not allowed in either Modern or Vintage (obv. BS would be banned in Modern if it was printed with a Modern frame). Both formats even decided to ban a card-quality cantrip that is about a hundred times worse than Brainstorm. I wouldn't mind to see Ponder banned alongside Brainstorm, but first things first.

Pointing to other formats is not legit.

If your argument is that Brainstorm should be banned in Legacy because it's banned in Vintage and would be banned in Modern my counter argument is that Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage for the same reason Thirst for Knowledge and Ponder are banned in Vintage. When so many cards in your deck are so good your only allowed to run them as a 1x you don't want to give players too many ways to dig 3 cards deep. I don't think you'll find too many people calling on Ponder and Thirst for Knowledge and Gifts Ungiven to be banned in Legacy. If that argument was valid there would have been no reason to separate the banned lists. As far as Modern goes, fuck Modern. That banned list killed the format and is the last thing I want the Legacy banned list to be compared to. 78% of Legacy players can't be wrong on this one. That's a pretty epic majority of people saying "Don't ban Brainstorm" and the format is just fine right now.

[bruizar]

What I would like to see is something that makes sphere strategies viable in legacy. Ancient tomb and City of Traitors are not enough to imitate workshop decks, because its not consistent enough. Note, I am not talking about the stax or workshop aggro archetype per se, but the ability to play with sphere of resistance, lodestone golem and thorn of amethyst. I'm also not saying Mishra's Workshop should be unbanned. Spheres keep combo in check, and make cantrips significantly worse. Cards like Wild Nacatl are predators to spheres, because they come down early and are fast enough to kill a player dropping spheres before he can stabilize. Wild Nacatl is also good against lodestone golem.

[rancOr_]

This just makes me laugh. Sure brainstorm is a very good blue card,but its not worth even considering banning. Snapcaster mage has actually put blue way more ahead then mental misstep did. Remember,like the last x years there also was brainstorm... and the format was fine,like it is now.
Besides -there are plenty of good decks to play that dont have brainstorm. Maybe if pple stop ranting about bannings because they are too ignorant to see the format is just fine,that would help. Also,most SCG hassle means nothing,and skill-wise its a copy x decklist that makes top16 that weekend so we can play it the next weekend..
Legacy is a fine and healty format,lets just keep it that way.. if blue will eventually dominate the format im 100% sure it will be because of snapcaster mage and not brainstorm. The problem many non blue aggro decks have is that they could beat blue quite easy but have a hard time fighting a removal and that getting flashed back 2 turns later...

[majikal]

Okay, so all the premium articles on SCG today are about NOT banning Brainstorm. I'm happy with this result. Now, if only they could hire less ignorant commentators so that the people watching the feature matches don't get fed such asinine bullshit.

Also, I think the death of the Magic Show is quite possibly the best thing that could happen to this format. Evan Erwin stirs up way too much shit.

[Mystical_Jackass]

updated December 17, 2011.

The following additional cards will be banned in Legacy tournaments:

:u:

[SpikeyMikey]

It seems very unlikely Brainstorm will be banned, even if the whiners are out in particular force again. There will always be some amount of complaining over the Internet, especially from people who aren't winning anything. It seems much more likely competitive Magic will die as a result of Hasbro's funding cuts than Brainstorm leaving the format.

Wizards has stated that the cuts to the PT were not the result of a mandate from Hasbro. That was entirely an internal WotC decision. I know it's tempting to give them a pass, but Wizards really is a shitty company. They have a good product line and so we all still give them money (well, I don't, but that's beside the point), but the company has gone to the dogs in the last decade.

[Koby]

Wizards has stated that the cuts to the PT were not the result of a mandate from Hasbro. That was entirely an internal WotC decision. I know it's tempting to give them a pass, but Wizards really is a shitty company. They have a good product line and so we all still give them money (well, I don't, but that's beside the point), but the company has gone to the dogs in the last decade.

One quick look at the Profits:Attention ratio that MTGO has should be enough to tell any casual observer this fact.

[Purgatory]

Also, I think the death of the Magic Show is quite possibly the best thing that could happen to this format. Evan Erwin stirs up way too much shit.

Sorry, did you read this somewhere? I thought he just said he'd do them less regularly...