Legacy is doomed. SCG jumping on board the "Ban Brainstorm" wagon. :(

[majikal]

The twitter feed in the latest Open is abuzz with talk of banning Brainstorm, while SCG Open coverage sensationalizes the "dominance" of "blue" as though that were something new.

Personally, I don't think the format can survive the banning of Brainstorm. Is this a move to kill interest in Legacy and drive Modern? Or are they just stupid enough to think banning Brainstorm will somehow restore "balance" (whatever that means) to Legacy?

Discuss.

[KobeBryan]

The twitter feed in the latest Open is abuzz with talk of banning Brainstorm, while SCG Open coverage sensationalizes the "dominance" of "blue" as though that were something new.

Personally, I don't think the format can survive the banning of Brainstorm. Is this a move to kill interest in Legacy and drive Modern? Or are they just stupid enough to think banning Brainstorm will somehow restore "balance" (whatever that means) to Legacy?

Discuss.

What really should be discussed is why everyone would jump ship if brainstorm is banned?

Are people really going to ditch their decks just because brainstorm is banned? I don't think so.

Brainstorm is overpowered. Its the best blue card there is.

[Leftconsin]

I for one will NOT jump off a cliff if I can't run brainstorm any more.

[majikal]

So we should just ban the best card in every color? That's dumb. There will always be a best card in every color, so should we just keep banning things until everyone has to do nothing but turn creatures sideways? Or is it just some arbitrary aversion to the color blue that we're seeing here?

Complaining that a color is overpowered without it actually homogenizing the format (I mean, seriously look at the wealth of decklists putting up numbers) is just bitching because your randomly chosen color of choice isn't as good as another color that you dislike for some other, purely psychological reason.

[wolfstorm]

Brainstorm is one of my favorite cards :(..

[CorpT]

So we should just ban the best card in every color? That's dumb. There will always be a best card in every color, so should we just keep banning things until everyone has to do nothing but turn creatures sideways?

No one is saying the best card in every color should be banned or that everything should be banned until only creatures are left. So why would you quit if Brainstorm is banned?

[majikal]

No one is saying the best card in every color should be banned or that everything should be banned until only creatures are left. So why would you quit if Brainstorm is banned?

I would quit if Brainstorm were banned, because I play this format specifically so I can play Brainstorm. It has been my favorite card since it was printed, along with Survival of the Fittest (which very nearly made me quit when it was banned, but I still had Brainstorm).

The bottom line is that I play Legacy so I can play with my old cards. If they keep banning all of the old spells and outclassing all of the old creatures, why should I play the format? It would be just like Modern with dual lands instead of shock lands. I'd rather sell my collection and find something to occupy my time where some committee won't keep fucking with everything just because some people in a third-party tournament series complain about something that they don't really know much about.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

It seems very unlikely Brainstorm will be banned, even if the whiners are out in particular force again. There will always be some amount of complaining over the Internet, especially from people who aren't winning anything. It seems much more likely competitive Magic will die as a result of Hasbro's funding cuts than Brainstorm leaving the format.

[Greenpoe]

Everyone's talking about how Brainstorm is so great (or should be banned) just because Wizards admitted that Mental Misstep was made to help fight Brainstorm.

[lordofthepit]

I don't often play Brainstorm decks, but I still like having the card in the format for nostalgic reasons?

But why the hell would people jump to Modern if they were unable to play Brainstorm in Legacy? It's not like Brainstorm is legal in that format either, and there is an extensive list of other problems associated with Modern.

[KobeBryan]

This sounds like another rant to me about brainstorm.

This thread isn't going anywhere.

[majikal]

But why the hell would people jump to Modern if they were unable to play Brainstorm in Legacy?
There are a lot of Legacy players right now that play it simply because it is a format with a lot of support from SCG. It's pretty simple really. Legacy becomes less popular = SCG pushes Modern = lots of players jump ship to the new hot format.

[joemauer]

Brainstorm is getting banned!?!??!!?

Sky is falling!!!!

After I sell my Legacy collection, I need to go buy every modern staple ever with all my money.

***Mass Panick****!!!!

[workingdude]

I saw this as the thread title, "Legacy is doomed. SCG jumping..."

My stomach dropped and I thought it was "SCG jumping to modern on Sundays"

I'm very relieved that its just brainstorm banning worries.

[John Cox]

I kinda think this thread should be in mish mash but maybe its just the time of night.


Brainstorm is getting banned!?!??!!?

Sky is falling!!!!

After I sell my Legacy collection, I need to go buy every modern staple ever with all my money.

***Mass Panick****!!!!

I would buy vintage staples but that's just the kinda guy I am.

[Lemnear]

Isn't it always awesome how people complain that a card warps the meta and want it banned just to find the next one short after an updated B&R list? Does really anybody think that the meta would be more balanced if brainstorm was banned? Every time a control-cards gotten the axe combo was on the rise and shortly after missteps banning there was a discussion how Show and Tell, LED Hive mind are allowed to exist.

Obviously the predicted Combo winter was very short and blue found grip again. So switched the banning interests back to blue. Same shit, different day...

I swear the Main reason to quit Legacy for me will Be this endless shit

[dontbiteitholmes]

Who cares?

So far SCG and every other magic website in existence has been hosting articles from a bunch of nobodys in the format crying about banning XXX or XXX cards non-stop and so far all that has been banned as a result was Mental Misstep and Survival of the Fittest. Both of these cards were omnipresent in top 8's for a while. Granted Brainstorm is omnipresent in Legacy top 8's as well but only because every blue deck except Merfolk is going to run it as a 4x. Blue is by far the most played color which does a lot to account for it's incredible amount of top 8's, not to mention most of the best players play blue. Any color has that card that is going to show up in 99% of decks that aren't combo, blue's just happens to be Brainstorm. I wouldn't worry too much. Lots of decks are well positioned to beat the new flavor of blue tempo decks that have started showing up.

[luckme10]

Isn't it always awesome how people complain that a card warps the meta and want it banned just to find the next one short after an updated B&R list? Does really anybody think that the meta would be more balanced if brainstorm was banned? Every time a control-cards gotten the axe combo was on the rise and shortly after missteps banning there was a discussion how Show and Tell, LED Hive mind are allowed to exist.

Obviously the predicted Combo winter was very short and blue found grip again. So switched the banning interests back to blue. Same shit, different day...

I swear the Main reason to quit Legacy for me will Be this endless shit

+1
Seriously, aren't people tired of crying over the sky falling? This discourse feels like a community of victimized children whose fathers' beat on them too much or something. I really miss the days when only a few played this not so popular format.

[Oiolosse]

To all the people willing to quit if brainstorm gets banned...please do.

I mean, holy shit you guys have 100s and oftentimes 1000s of dollars invested in a game you spend hours and hours of your precious life playing and you want to quit because you can't cast a brainstorm? I'm not intelligent/sober enough to articulate how fundamentally retarded you must be to have dedicated hard-earned money and valuable time for many years to something apparently very enjoyable to just quit over something as trivial as the banning of one card. It's hard to stop ranting when 91234893 analogies keep coming to mind so I'll just stop and let other fill in the blanks.

/endrant

[Goin Aggro]

Seriously, all the whiners need to check themselves. If you don't like the format, we're not forcing you at gunpoint to play legacy.

Brainstorm is one of the things that makes this format special. Especially the fact that you can play four of them. It takes a lot of skill and patience to play the card correctly, and banning it only services the kids who just want to derp around with their Blazing Shoals and Valakuts.

I'm saying this as a dedicated aggro (Non-Blue) player. Brainstorm is awesome. Keep Legacy legacy.

[Pippin]

Brainstorm is not getting banned.

The end

[Lemnear]

To all the people willing to quit if brainstorm gets banned...please do.

I mean, holy shit you guys have 100s and oftentimes 1000s of dollars invested in a game you spend hours and hours of your precious life playing and you want to quit because you can't cast a brainstorm? I'm not intelligent/sober enough to articulate how fundamentally retarded you must be to have dedicated hard-earned money and valuable time for many years to something apparently very enjoyable to just quit over something as trivial as the banning of one card. It's hard to stop ranting when 91234893 analogies keep coming to mind so I'll just stop and let other fill in the blanks.

/endrant

This point of view from the other side of the river: "If you don't like Legacy as a format play something else instead of trying to change it."

"go play another format or quit" is not an attitude ... It's childish




WotC opend a dangerous door with their People's Choice Bannings of Survival and Misstep. It's no wonder that the number of rants and "Ban this card ... for diversity!?" exploded on all forums on the net.

[RJM]

When I read the SCG event coverage and these are the kind of plays I'm looking at from the Quarterfinals and on... It doesn't really make me want to give a crap about what the opinions coming from said SCG results are showing anyone...

Quarterfinals: Alex Bertoncini vs. Tony Murata (http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/144_quarterfinals_alex_bertoncini_.html)

(Tries to rush the KotR under no pressure played right into a Daze. He even lucks out and gets it back a turn later from Exhume, and apparently even though he's got the StP in hand... Decides to wait until after Gitaxias draws before trying to remove him? :eyebrow: To the shock and awe of precisely zero people, it gets FoW'd after the draw 7.)

Anyway... On topic, banning Brainstorm would be dumb as hell. Would I rage quit over it all Hollywood drama style? Nah. But I'd probably have to take a little bit of a break to seriously re-evaluate exactly what format WotC has left me in which I can actually enjoy and play the cards I want to.

[Lemnear]

Read that one too ... awesome. After having a GenCon Vintage "World" *cough* Champion who missed a bunch of trigger and still was able to win you have a SCG quarterfinalist while doing such mistakes ... what the hells going on in the States? :wink:

[Hof]

Blue has experienced a recent spike in popularity because of Snapcaster + Delver, but i fail to see how that makes Brainstorm ban worthy. I really hope Wizards will let the format fix itself and not go "blue seems too powerful, lets take the best blue cards - whatever they are - and ban them to even the colors out a bit". That would be so dump.

[RJM]

I really hope Wizards will let the format fix itself and not go "blue seems too powerful, lets take the best blue cards - whatever they are - and ban them to even the colors out a bit". That would be so dump Modern.

Also accurate.

[Vacrix]

This is simply a stimulus to get people talking about magic and the nature of the metagame. Its a good thing. Brainstorm isn't getting banned. That would be like making 5 dollar bills illegal. What the FUCK would they do that for?

To alter something so crucial to the format would require MUCH thinking on WoTC's part because staples are what allow the format to have a certain amount of perpetuity. With staples you can build a deck that is relatively competitive even if it doesn't fit a DTB, DTW, or Established description. This allows legacy players to pursue a relatively unique yet competitive strategy. NO OTHER FORMAT HAS THIS ADVANTAGE. Take Standard and Vintage as the 2 logical extremes. Vintage has cards that are so good that you MUST play them to be competitive while Standard limits the card pool to such an extent that the cards that should be played are obvious. Extended is just like Standard with a slightly larger card pool, so it develops staples but they do eventually cycle. Legacy has cards that will always be good and therefore has archetypes that will always be good. Take away staples, you fuck up everything.

Its not like introducing a new card like Mind's Desire or Mental Misstep and then see what happens with a finger on the kill switch. That is format warp and then a warp to correct a mistake.

This is like saying that a defining piece of the format IS a mistake. Its kind of like walking up to a person and asking them why they have a nose. ITS PART OF MY FACE FUCK OFF!

Its not like when Mystical Tutor became so format defining that two combo decks, ANT and Reanimator, would obviously maintain dominance and make the game stupid because WoTC wanted to print more powerful cards like Ad Nauseum and Iona. So the format endured a correction because new cards were introduced. Brainstorm, however, is a card that allows the format to correct itself.

I think WoTC is just trying to create a mechanism by which the vast Standard population can get into a more perpetual format where their card values appreciate and they stick around playing for longer.

[Einherjer]

Do I play decks with brainstorm? Yes
Is brainstorm the card I enjoy most in playing this deck? NO NO and NOOOO, its pretty good but not the reason why I play this deck...

Greetings

[Adan]

I actually think Brainstorm is one of the most important pillars of Legacy. I already found Modern pretty shitty due to the lack of Force of Will.
Many matchups revolve around who is playing his Brainstorm better which means that people are challenged to maximize their cardquality better than the other player.
But some people still suck and do things like playing Brainstorm in response to their Confidant trigger while being on 18 life for no reason. But you only play Brainstorm when you really need it and your hand has no alternatives to offer. Good players that make Top8s from time to time often know how to play their Brainstorms correctly which is also a part of their success.

But the real reason for Blue being so popular was Mental Misstep. They banned it, but as Hof said, Snapcaster and Delver of Secrets have been 2 other great cards for Blue decks.

Brainstorm is a format-defining card, like P9, Bazaars and Shops are for Vintage.

Banning Brainstorm would make some decks extremely inconsistent. And then you might as well play crap that does not draw cards outside of the drawstep like Zoo, Dragonstompy and other aggrodecks. Or decks that are heavy on mulligans like Belcher.

I don't want to play Legacy when it boils down to "who has the better opening hand and/or who rips better from the top".

I'd also predict a heavy dominance of Green Sun's Zenith-decks because they will be the only decks that are then always be able to fetch what they need. Additionally, the number of Zeniths in the deck remains constant, which means you are virtually - VIRTUALLY - running up to 8 copies of a certain green creature.

I think the format is currently at a healthy equilibrium. Banning Brainstorm would degenerate it.

[Gui]

Leave the format if Brainstorm is banned? Since when the anti-whiners began to whine?

ZERO decks will be dead if Brainstorm is gone, and you'll jave have to chose which one you think is less lame between Ponder, Preordain or any other cantrip legacy offers.


That said, banning stuff like this because it's unbalanced is utopian. There will always be a dominant strategy in such a complex game.

[wizard_of_gore]

Ok, let's ban brainstorm. But return us mystical tutor and survival of the fittest!!!

[Adan]

Leave the format if Brainstorm is banned? Since when the anti-whiners began to whine?

ZERO decks will be dead if Brainstorm is gone, and you'll jave have to chose which one you think is less lame between Ponder, Preordain or any other cantrip legacy offers.

This is a very superficial thesis. Brainstorm allows several decks to shift gears. I often sat there and kept a completely wrong hand against a certain matchup because I didn't scout enough, had my opponent on something else because they rotate a lot or because my memory sucked. Let's assume you keep a hand with 2 dead Swords to Plowshares against ANT.
Or as an ANT player, you keep a hand with a lot of Duress-effects against Goblins where you don't need it.

Without Brainstorm turning these cards into useful ones, you will most likely lose because your hand was not geared to disrupt your opponent enough or was too slow etc.

Preordain or Ponder can't ever fix this problem. I also wasn't saying that decks will be dead, but banning Brainstorm will make you highly dependant on your opening hand. I already think that these screw-flood-issues already decide enough games in Legacy. Banning Brainstorm will also amp up this variance.


That said, banning stuff like this because it's unbalanced is utopian. There will always be a dominant strategy in such a complex game.

I agree. Although Brainstorm is not a strategy by itself, it supports many strategies that simply become worse when they would ban it. And then other strategies will rise up.

edit: Natural Order decks would also suck if Brainstorm was banned. Once Progenitus is stuck in your hand, your strategy is dead. Would you play See Beyond? Or Thirst for Knowledge? I doubt it. There are also some weird scenarios when playing ANT and you have your singleton Ad Nauseam in your hand and planned to go LED LED IT for it. Won't ever work again in that game with Brainstorm banned.

Some decks and strategies can just brick at random if they would not have Brainstorm in them.
Banning Brainstorm would significantly decrease the amount of playable/competitive decks.

[Izor]

@ Adan:

I agree that Brainstorm doesn't need to be banned, but still your argumentation is highly biased and not objective. In every situation where you used the term 'Legacy', the term 'blue deck in Legacy' would suit much better. You talk only about what the poor blue control decks would have to suffer if it was gone. You don't even seem to take non-blue decks in Legacy for serious:


Banning Brainstorm would make some decks extremely inconsistent. And then you might as well play crap that does not draw cards outside of the drawstep like Zoo, Dragonstompy and other aggrodecks. Or decks that are heavy on mulligans like Belcher.

Those decks aren't crap. They're established parts of the metagame and it is (or would be) very unfortunate if Brainstorm invalidated all of them.

Everything you mentioned is actually a perfect argumentation for the 'Ban Brainstorm' cries. It fixes your draws to an extent where Blue decks are just always better than non-blue decks. You say that Legacy decks (again, actually only 'Blue decks') would have to rely too much on their opening hand and sometimes get screwed, flooded or simply drawing the double StpS against combo and such.

Maybe it's exactly that what the 'Haters' don't like. Zoo decks do draw the Path against Storm and can't help it. They can't keep one-landers. Thise people may say that this game is about drawing well, or bad sometimes. And that you simply have dead cards or bad draws and matchups sometimes. And they actually have a valid point there.


Again, I'm not saying I want BS to be banned. I'm playing it myself. But still we may not have such bisaed arguments if we want to objectively evaluate it. There definitely is some truth in Brainstorm being somewhat overpowered.

[alderon666]

I hate how blue gets all the toys to play with while other colors are left as support colors.

Just imagine if Snapcaster mage was printed as a red card for 1R. Red had a lot of cards that give flashback like Recoup and some creatures with flash like Viashino Bladescout (I had Sulfur Elemental but then realized that was from Planar Chaos...), so no violation of the color pie there.

Then it could be used in aggro deck as a duder that could get you back a removal/burn. Totally fair right? It would be probably played in some blue decks, but not being a possible pitch to Force would make a huge difference. But still, totally fair right?

BUT NO! Let's just print the damn thing as blue card!

[f|i[p]]

Blue has always been the strongest color in magic...

Honestly speaking, I've always hated brainstorm as it does so many things for a 1 mana instant...even if people keep on saying that its not used properly blah blah blah... Obviously, I am not a blue mage...

Its one of the cards that can actually make blue run 18 lands...and not really suffer much from it..
as compared to thoughtseize or other 1 mana spells... it draws you a card.. filters your hand, digs 3 cards deep..hides your stuff,.. and it doesn't even cost 2 life to do so and can be used as an instant... It just does so many things that its really really annoying for 1 mana instant....

However I have learned to live with it for 7 years or so ...but it doesn't mean that I don't find it annoying and over powered for a 1 mana spell...

I don't really care much if its banned or not...but if people were to ask me.. if its ban worthy.. I would definitely say yes...and if it does get banned, I am sure that it will affect ton's of blue based decks...

[Gheizen64]

edit: Natural Order decks would also suck if Brainstorm was banned. Once Progenitus is stuck in your hand, your strategy is dead. Would you play See Beyond? Or Thirst for Knowledge? I doubt it. There are also some weird scenarios when playing ANT and you have your singleton Ad Nauseam in your hand and planned to go LED LED IT for it. Won't ever work again in that game with Brainstorm banned.

Some decks and strategies can just brick at random if they would not have Brainstorm in them.
Banning Brainstorm would significantly decrease the amount of playable/competitive decks.

I think everyone would be happier by seeing SnT and NO strategies weakened, those are pretty dumb and often require some awkwards cards in the main to be answered, not to talk about $$$ karakas. All the other things you said looks like positive things to me. Blue decks not being able to keep 1-lander or not able to hide bombs or reshuffle the wrong answers? May god protect us from all those dreadful things that aren't an issue for us superior blue mages and leave the peasants in the dirt (note that blue mages never had that ability before fetch were printed).

lol

[CorpT]

This is a very superficial thesis. Brainstorm allows several decks to shift gears. I often sat there and kept a completely wrong hand against a certain matchup because I didn't scout enough, had my opponent on something else because they rotate a lot or because my memory sucked. Let's assume you keep a hand with 2 dead Swords to Plowshares against ANT.
Or as an ANT player, you keep a hand with a lot of Duress-effects against Goblins where you don't need it.

Without Brainstorm turning these cards into useful ones, you will most likely lose because your hand was not geared to disrupt your opponent enough or was too slow etc.

Preordain or Ponder can't ever fix this problem. I also wasn't saying that decks will be dead, but banning Brainstorm will make you highly dependant on your opening hand. I already think that these screw-flood-issues already decide enough games in Legacy. Banning Brainstorm will also amp up this variance.

Some decks and strategies can just brick at random if they would not have Brainstorm in them.
Banning Brainstorm would significantly decrease the amount of playable/competitive decks.

Thanks for all the arguments for banning Brainstorm. I suppose if you had defined "Legacy decks" as only playing Blue, you'd be right, banning Brainstorm would decrease the amount of playable decks. But you defined "Legacy decks" as decks of all colors, you'd be wrong.

Brainstorm is the card that makes not-playing Blue stupid. That means that 4 out of 5 colors are simply support colors for Blue. And you think that putting Blue down with the rest of the unwashed masses would decrease the amount of playable decks? I think it would only increase the amount of playable decks because then other colors would be playable and deckbuilding wouldn't being with 4x Brainstorm + Blue lands.

[Mr. Safety]

Brainstorm is only as powerful as it is because of it's relationship to other cards. In and of itself, Brainstorm is actually quite fair. What people need to do is worry about what Brainstorm is getting, not Brainstorm itself.

I'm going to 'throw out' some discussion points, feel free to agree/disagree/contribute, but I think it's a closed case. Brainstorm is powerful, but not too powerful. Players need to start making better decisions rather than holler for Brainstorm to be banned.

1) Imagine if fetchlands didn't exist. In that fantasy world, Brainstorm isn't any better than Ponder, and Ponder is arguably better because you can shuffle away the top 3 cards if they don't have anything useful. Fetchland synergy makes Brainstorm better. Not broken, just better.

2) Brainstorm can be an instant-speed way to gain an answer to a problematic situation (by getting counterspells, removal, etc.) but those are the problem cards...not Brainstorm. Figure out how to beat those cards.

3) Saying 'ban Brainstorm' is like saying 'don't use glue in furniture, only screws and nails'. With Brainstorm being the proverbial glue, legacy without Brainstorm would feel like sitting in a chair with no glue, just screws or nails. Something about trusting my 200 lbs to a chair with only one support system seems a little risky.

[DragoFireheart]

I'll agree to see Brainstorm banned if Aether Vial, Lion's Eye Diamond, and Wild Nactal are also banned. Deal?

Honestly, go play Modern if blue decks upset you that much.

Edit: If Brainstorm gets banned, I'll just play casual and EDH(Commander) from here on out.

[Grillo]

I don't think Brainstorm is going to be banned any time soon. And I don't think it should.
But if it were banned it would make me like legacy a lot less.

I play eternal format mainly because I like playing powerful decks filled with powerful cards. I play Vintage, Legacy and Commander.

Legacy in particular is very fun to play, because it lets me use 4 copies of cards that are restricted in Vintage. Brainstorm being one of the most notable.

Real eternal formats (not Modern) will always have blue decks and combo decks at its core unless Wizards bans half the card pool available to them (Modern is basically this).

My $0.02

[catmint]

Brainstorm is only as powerful as it is because of it's relationship to other cards. In and of itself, Brainstorm is actually quite fair. What people need to do is worry about what Brainstorm is getting, not Brainstorm itself.

I'm going to 'throw out' some discussion points, feel free to agree/disagree/contribute, but I think it's a closed case. Brainstorm is powerful, but not too powerful. Players need to start making better decisions rather than holler for Brainstorm to be banned.

1) Imagine if fetchlands didn't exist. In that fantasy world, Brainstorm isn't any better than Ponder, and Ponder is arguably better because you can shuffle away the top 3 cards if they don't have anything useful. Fetchland synergy makes Brainstorm better. Not broken, just better.

2) Brainstorm can be an instant-speed way to gain an answer to a problematic situation (by getting counterspells, removal, etc.) but those are the problem cards...not Brainstorm. Figure out how to beat those cards.

3) Saying 'ban Brainstorm' is like saying 'don't use glue in furniture, only screws and nails'. With Brainstorm being the proverbial glue, legacy without Brainstorm would feel like sitting in a chair with no glue, just screws or nails. Something about trusting my 200 lbs to a chair with only one support system seems a little risky.

Probably the smartest post I ever read from you Mr. Safety. :)
I agree, however since there are fetchlands, Brainstorm is not "quite fair", but maybe a bit overpowered. But also some other cards in legacy are "overpowered" and still legal...
THAT IS THE NATURE OF THE FORMAT!!!

Since all the duals and fetches are available it is just natural to pick the best of every color and build a deck. Blue beeing the glue for most of the decks is just the nature of legacy that there are a lot of blue decks...

Leave Brainstorm alone!!!

[Admiral_Arzar]

I'll agree to see Brainstorm banned if Aether Vial, Lion's Eye Diamond, and Wild Nactal are also banned. Deal?


This is the most childish post I've seen so far in this thread (OMG if I can't play with my favorite toys nobody else can play with theirs either - what are you, 3?). Note that the banning of Brainstorm hurts every (good) deck with LED just as much as it does the blue decks. That is actually the only reason I am not for a Brainstorm ban - I've always hated blue decks, but I do love what BS does for my bad hands when playing Storm or High Tide (there, some truth for you in this BS thread - see what I did there?). As for Vial and Nacatl, it's not like we're seeing many of those in the format right about now.

[Michael Keller]

I blame fetchlands for all this nonsense, not Brainstorm.

Until they were printed, Brainstorm was a modest (yet still powerful) filter spell. It was nigh impossible to reset your draws, as you were still (potentially) drawing dead. Since Onslaught, it has gained an insurmountable level of effectiveness and people have only recently begun to understand how powerful it really can be - especially now that more fetchlands exist thanks to Zendikar. Now, instead of decks running four to eight off-colored fetches, people run a much more precise and effective fetch-base by including the proper color combinations. This makes Brainstorm far deadlier than it was - even with the advent of Onslaught fetches.

Point is, Brainstorm isn't the only catalyst that makes Brainstorm powerful in its own right. Without the help of cards like Sensei's Divining Top, fetches, etc., it really isn't as ban-worthy as some people make it out to be. You ever hear people talk about how someone "misused" a Brainstorm by firing it out with no shuffle effects or at the end of someone else's turn? It's basically the same prospect, only fetches do exist. Brainstorm is a card that can find answers, but not nearly as effectively as it can using a fetchland with it.

It still isn't ban-worthy, however. Not by a long-shot.

[Solaran_X]

Brainstorm is only as powerful as it is because of it's relationship to other cards. In and of itself, Brainstorm is actually quite fair. What people need to do is worry about what Brainstorm is getting, not Brainstorm itself.
Isn't that precisely why Survival of the Fittest was banned in Legacy? It wasn't that Survival itself was the problem, it's that Survival was the engine to a problem deck. Prior to Vengevine, Survival-based strategies rarely, if ever, were above a Tier 2 deck (sometimes Tier 1.5).

Perhaps banning Brainstorm will be a step to ending blue's dominance of Legacy. Without the ability to Brainstorm away dead cards and then crack a fetch to shuffle them away, blue players will have to be more diligent in their deck construction and sideboarding than they previously have been.

[DragoFireheart]

This is the most childish post I've seen so far in this thread.

That part of my post was intended to be childish.

[Einherjer]

Id really love Wizard to LEAVE us with this FRIGGEN banlist, its ok now. They can do shit on Modern. They can destroy this wannabe-eternalformat. But they should LEAVE US OUR LEGACY!!!

Greetings

[GGoober]

You know banning brainstorm neuters control much more than it neuters combo? (e.g. ANT player Duress, takes Force, or goes off and the control player was only able to Ponder/Preordain into what he thinks is the correct card to hold in hand).

All the blue-haters (namely aggro non-blue players) will be in for this ban, and when brainstorm is banned, be prepared for combo to be much more powerful than ever, and we will see even more bannings to balance the format. If you think that brainstorm is the reason why the format is blue-dominant and broken, you are right in some respect, but this is an eternal format. With brainstorm gone, the format needs ALOT more cards to be banned for balancing purposes. If the DCI announced the banning of Brainstorm, they better justify that with more bannings because it would show that they are incompetent at understanding that the format isn't impacted by one-card, namely Brainstorm, but rather the format is impacted by the interactions of many cards.

If brainstorm gets banned, the future banning will be a little like Modern, where they have to mini-ban and monitor the format constantly to make sure it's balanced. I doubt more good comes with banning brainstorm than keeping it around. I will say that Brainstorm is incredibly powerful, up there with Force of Will, Natural Order, Dark Ritual, SDT, LED etc, Goyf, Bob. But it's nowhere as powerful as cards that deserved bans e.g. Survival, Flash, etc

[alderon666]

Brainstorm is only as powerful as it is because of it's relationship to other cards. In and of itself, Brainstorm is actually quite fair. What people need to do is worry about what Brainstorm is getting, not Brainstorm itself.

I'm going to 'throw out' some discussion points, feel free to agree/disagree/contribute, but I think it's a closed case. Brainstorm is powerful, but not too powerful. Players need to start making better decisions rather than holler for Brainstorm to be banned.

1) Imagine if fetchlands didn't exist. In that fantasy world, Brainstorm isn't any better than Ponder, and Ponder is arguably better because you can shuffle away the top 3 cards if they don't have anything useful. Fetchland synergy makes Brainstorm better. Not broken, just better.

2) Brainstorm can be an instant-speed way to gain an answer to a problematic situation (by getting counterspells, removal, etc.) but those are the problem cards...not Brainstorm. Figure out how to beat those cards.

3) Saying 'ban Brainstorm' is like saying 'don't use glue in furniture, only screws and nails'. With Brainstorm being the proverbial glue, legacy without Brainstorm would feel like sitting in a chair with no glue, just screws or nails. Something about trusting my 200 lbs to a chair with only one support system seems a little risky.

Therefore, we should unban Mystical Tutor. You just need to make sure you can handle all those singletons from AdN and Reanimator!

Banning Brainstorm is just the quick fix to make blue bad! You could achieve similar effect by printing non-blue friendly aggro spells. Very undercosted creatures that you can't splash in FoW decks.

[DragoFireheart]

Therefore, we should unban Mystical Tutor. You just need to make sure you can handle all those singletons from AdN and Reanimator!

Your logic sucks.



Banning Brainstorm is just the quick fix to make blue bad! You could achieve similar effect by printing non-blue friendly aggro spells. Very undercosted creatures that you can't splash in FoW decks.

Not going to happen. Even Wild Nacatal gets used in Blue Zoo.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm fairly certain that Brainstorm was really powerful before Mental Misstep. They printed Mental Misstep as a risky project to introduce another trump to the blazing speed of legacy (mostly for the combo decks and fast beats like Wild Nacatl.) It backfired. Sure folks were countering Brainstorm with MM (I know I did that a fair amount of times...) but those same decks were using MM's of their own. I say that only as a way to put Brainstorm in the right light: Brainstorm doesn't warp the format. It's a support card that glues decks together. Asking for Brainstorm to be banned would be the equivalent of asking for Polluted Delta to be banned. (If you're thinking 'Huh what? ' than I'm obviously not communicating well enough. It's happened before, I drink retard coffee regularly...)

Ask yourself this: do you play around Brainstorm, as in: it is a problematic spell to cautious of? I don't either.

I try to play around Daze, Force of Will, Wild Nacatl, Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, etc...but I don't try to play around Brainstorm.

[Einherjer]

HOW are you playing AROUND Wild Nacatl?

[Sims]

This thread sucks.

Fixed that for you.

[Oiolosse]

This game involves probability and Brainstorm decreases variance. So at the limit of course Brainstorm impacts the game, it reworks the odds, it fixes the game, if just a bit, to your benefit (maybe, but at least maybe). I don't think it needs banned for many reasons already stated but I do think variance reducing cards should be printed in others colors. I don't propose in what form but I do know that the format would become more streamlined and the whiners squelched.

[oldbsturgeon]

This is simply a stimulus to get people talking about magic and the nature of the metagame. Its a good thing. Brainstorm isn't getting banned. That would be like making 5 dollar bills illegal.

Not that this matters to much of anything but the US has made money they later deemed illegal (1873 and 1933 respectively).
On the real topic though I do agree than the idea of banning pillars of legacy would have major impact on the game as its currently played, though I would think those in charge realize the issues with such a change and would not be willing to risk this.
However recent changes in the game make it impossible to predict any future decision with as much certainity as in the past.

[nedleeds]

Or are they just stupid enough to think banning Brainstorm will somehow restore "balance" (whatever that means) to Legacy?

Discuss.

Balance might include 23 of 32 top GP decks not including a 4 x set of Brainstorm. It may force people to build decks that aren't centered completely around the 16 Amigos (FoW / BS / StP / Daze). A Brainstorm ban would have to be accompanied by some un-bannings (obviously) for it to really make any sense at all.

Banning Brainstorm won't kill the format any more than banning anything else, but the 'Skill Intensive' army will certainly raise their flag and run around the yard for a bit.

[nedleeds]

So we should just ban the best card in every color? That's dumb. There will always be a best card in every color, so should we just keep banning things until everyone has to do nothing but turn creatures sideways? Or is it just some arbitrary aversion to the color blue that we're seeing here?

Complaining that a color is overpowered without it actually homogenizing the format (I mean, seriously look at the wealth of decklists putting up numbers) is just bitching because your randomly chosen color of choice isn't as good as another color that you dislike for some other, purely psychological reason.

This is fair. But then why are Survival of the Fittest, Mind Twist and Land Tax banned? All are in line with Brainstorms power level (all except maybe Land Tax pale in terms of fixing bad opening hands) and actually they require way more deck commitment than Brainstorm, which finds itself in control decks, combo decks and aggressive man based decks.

The awful thing is that if those were unbanned, they'd just get played in decks with 4 x Brainstorm (Land Tax! Yum!).

[alderon666]

Ask yourself this: do you play around Brainstorm, as in: it is a problematic spell to cautious of? I don't either.

I try to play around Daze, Force of Will, Wild Nacatl, Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, etc...but I don't try to play around Brainstorm.

I do.

Most obvious scenario is playing Storm combo. You really need to get that Force off their hands! But if they have U up I just play Ponder or play a fetch and pass, then I wait for them to tap out for Stoneforge or whatever. Only then I Duress getting that Force for sure.

[nedleeds]

Banning Brainstorm is just the quick fix to make blue bad! You could achieve similar effect by printing non-blue friendly aggro spells. Very undercosted creatures that you can't splash in FoW decks.

They did ... they printed some great undercosted creatures in Innistrad,

Delver of Secrets and Snapcaster Mage ... oh wait. They're blue. Whoops.

[Offler]

If banning of single card can mean such damage to any format and the blue itself, Wizards have been making blue bad for very long time.

[nedleeds]

I don't want to play Legacy when it boils down to "who can fix their opening hand and/or who rips a brainstorm from the top".


Fixed that. The deck without Brainstorm is at the complete mercy of their opening hand. Fetch, Fetch, Jace, Brainstorm, Land, Land, FoW is an auto-keep. No wonder it 23 of 32'ed.

[thefringthing]

It would be nice if R&D would be a little more careful with printing cards with serious implications for Legacy. Mechanically, Snapcaster Mage ought to be red, and printing a flying blue Wild Nacatl was kind of silly. (And we know what Mental Misstep did to the format.) These cards are interesting in Standard, but because Development doesn't test Eternal formats much, we have to live with some poor decisions.

There are a lot of interesting options for cards that hose Brainstorm. Maybe a Chains of Mephistopheles type of effect on a red creature? A black instant that says, "Until the end of the turn, if a player would draw a card other than their first card drawn in their draw step, instead he or she does not."? There are a lot of options.

One issue is that it's tricky to print things to hose blue that aren't good in blue decks. (You don't want your hoser card to just be tech for the mirror.)

[(nameless one)]

Even though I rarely play blue, I would be sad if Brainstorm got the hammer.

Hopefully we're just having an SDT or Goblin Lackey moment with Brainstorm.

[Mr. Safety]

HOW are you playing AROUND Wild Nacatl?

Are you joking or asking a serious question? If you read the whole post, I explained exactly what I meant by 'playing around' a card.

[Mr. Safety]

I do.

Most obvious scenario is playing Storm combo. You really need to get that Force off their hands! But if they have U up I just play Ponder or play a fetch and pass, then I wait for them to tap out for Stoneforge or whatever. Only then I Duress getting that Force for sure.

You need to start playtesting with Gitaxian Probe, my friend.

I'd be much more worried about Spell Snare hitting a ritual/Burning Wish or Spell Pierce doing the same. By passing the turn, you are essentially allowing them to Brainstorm on the end of your turn anyways and digging for more control. Allowing them to untap their lands and have mana open for Counterspell (getting more play time lately) as well as Brainstorm to find Force...you're in a bad spot regardless in this scenario. Gitaxian Probe would be pretty useful here, allowing you to see their hand for free and potentially drawing more gas. Then you would know if it's safe to combo out. If there is a problematic card (Force) then you can use your Duress on this turn to rob the card and go. Waiting an unneccessary turn when playing combo vs. control seems kind of bad... just my opinion here.

[Rizso]

I think its quite funny tbh. SCG is geting top 8s with their regualary people who all play blue, not really strange that blue is constanly showing. If alot more of the scg players would get established with decks like GW-Maverick who got great matchups against blue decks.

[Gheizen64]

You know banning brainstorm neuters control much more than it neuters combo? (e.g. ANT player Duress, takes Force, or goes off and the control player was only able to Ponder/Preordain into what he thinks is the correct card to hold in hand).

All the blue-haters (namely aggro non-blue players) will be in for this ban, and when brainstorm is banned, be prepared for combo to be much more powerful than ever, and we will see even more bannings to balance the format. If you think that brainstorm is the reason why the format is blue-dominant and broken, you are right in some respect, but this is an eternal format. With brainstorm gone, the format needs ALOT more cards to be banned for balancing purposes. If the DCI announced the banning of Brainstorm, they better justify that with more bannings because it would show that they are incompetent at understanding that the format isn't impacted by one-card, namely Brainstorm, but rather the format is impacted by the interactions of many cards.

If brainstorm gets banned, the future banning will be a little like Modern, where they have to mini-ban and monitor the format constantly to make sure it's balanced. I doubt more good comes with banning brainstorm than keeping it around. I will say that Brainstorm is incredibly powerful, up there with Force of Will, Natural Order, Dark Ritual, SDT, LED etc, Goyf, Bob. But it's nowhere as powerful as cards that deserved bans e.g. Survival, Flash, etc

Honestly i think an hypotetical brainstorm ban would hurt those decks, from most to less:

- SnT, NO, Reanimator and most non storm-combo based in blue. Inability to reshuffle extra combo pieces for more protection, inability to protect the single combo piece from discard.
- Storm combo. More vulnerable to discard, unable to exchange chaff (lands and unneeded spells) for more gas.
- U Based Control. Leaving U for countering is no more always the correct play with no BS since you have only decent sorcery cantrips now
- U Based Tempo. Same as control, but those decks are usually penalized less by tapping out since they run less hard counters and more free spells and creatures/proactive spells (like TA)
- Merfolk. With an hypotetical decrease of blue, merfolk would lose some of its appeal as a blue predator (which is also blue blue blue blue)
- Non blue decks. Dredge is also included here.

As for the argument of BS is only good as the card you draw. You know what else is good only as the other cards you can play? Every single card in magic. Can we stop using this retarded argument? It's perfectly applicable to cards like Ancestral and every engine ever from Necro to Bargain to Will.

The only argument we should use is "would the format be better without BS"? "would it be more varied?" etc...
Before Snapcaster and Delver and the MM ban, i was pretty sure a ban of brainstorm would have shifted the format away from its blue dominance and would have opened a lot of design space for decks. Now with those new absurd blue cards in the pool and MM gone (meaning combo again interact only with blue) i'm pretty sure the format would remain totally blue dominated anyway, so i see a lot less merit of an hypotetical brainstorm ban.

Thanks WotC for having printed good cards that should have been red and are blue instead!

[Amon Amarth]

If they wanted reduce the number of non-Blue decks in Legacy there are other options. I really hope they don't ban Brainstorm. Where would people play with it? It's not like we're talking about some new card; this is Brainstorm. I'm also really concerned about runaway bannings like what happened with Modern. They seem way too ban happy these days.

[Mr. Safety]

As for the argument of BS is only good as the card you draw. You know what else is good only as the other cards you can play? Every single card in magic. Can we stop using this retarded argument? It's perfectly applicable to cards like Ancestral and every engine ever from Necro to Bargain to Will.

I'm not following you here...Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain are 1-card combos. Play them and win. Brainstorm isn't anywhere near that powerful. Yawgmoth's Will needs a setup to work well, making it more than a 1 card combo. Past in Flames is a new option to use in lieu of Yawgmoth's Will that is at the center of a Brain Freeze based storm engine.

The argument seems pretty straightforward, and actually quite non-retarded. Gun's that shoot blanks are not dangerous. Guns that shoot 9mm hollow-points are dangerous.

Seems sound to me...but yes, I speak retarded very well. It's my second language.

[Rizso]

At least brainstorm gives the metagame alot predictions. Brainstorm does give a established metagame. And still people fight fow with fow.

[alderon666]

You need to start playtesting with Gitaxian Probe, my friend.

I'd be much more worried about Spell Snare hitting a ritual/Burning Wish or Spell Pierce doing the same. By passing the turn, you are essentially allowing them to Brainstorm on the end of your turn anyways and digging for more control. Allowing them to untap their lands and have mana open for Counterspell (getting more play time lately) as well as Brainstorm to find Force...you're in a bad spot regardless in this scenario. Gitaxian Probe would be pretty useful here, allowing you to see their hand for free and potentially drawing more gas. Then you would know if it's safe to combo out. If there is a problematic card (Force) then you can use your Duress on this turn to rob the card and go. Waiting an unneccessary turn when playing combo vs. control seems kind of bad... just my opinion here.

I'm sorry, I can't respond to that post without resorting to flaming.



I don't know if printing hose cards against blue is the way to go. I think non-blue decks need solid creatures/spell that are exceptionally good against blue and decent against everything else.

I mean, Pyroblast is pretty popular but maybe quality cards are better than straight up Choke-like sideboard cards.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm sorry, I can't respond to that post without resorting to flaming.

That's unfortunate...I thought it was a good discussion. No matter how wrong I may be, intelligent discussion is always appreciated.

[alderon666]

That's unfortunate...I thought it was a good discussion. No matter how wrong I may be, intelligent discussion is always appreciated.

Dude, you asked for a situation where you would play around BS. I gave you a perfectly fine example. Then you come and tell me how I should be playing my deck and others cards I should be playing? Really?

[Mr. Safety]

Dude, you asked for a situation where you would play around BS. I gave you a perfectly fine example. Then you come and tell me how I should be playing my deck and others cards I should be playing? Really?

I didn't ask for a specific situation...I asked what I thought was a rhetorical question. I didn't mean to tell you how to play your deck. ALl instances of 'you' were just for the sake of explanation in a general sense, not specifically targeting you. I also ended it with 'just my opinion'. That is not ordering, commanding, or even suggesting that you do a certain thing. I was stating how I would face a given situation.

Regardless, *raising white flag*. Sorry I offended you...it was not my intent.

[death]

Yadda yadda yadda ...


It would be nice if R&D would be a little more careful with printing cards with serious implications for Legacy. Mechanically, Snapcaster Mage ought to be red, and printing a flying blue Wild Nacatl was kind of silly. (And we know what Mental Misstep did to the format.) These cards are interesting in Standard, but because Development doesn't test Eternal formats much, we have to live with some poor decisions.

I'd like to echo this sentiment. If they haven't learned their lesson well with Jace TMS I sure hope that they do now. They have been pushing the blue color these past few cycles and players are only getting annoyed by this. Mental Misstep, Snapcaster Mage and Insectile Aberration should be the end. Brainstorm isn't the card they want to ban on a whim, in the long run the repercussions of banning it could be detrimental to the health of the format. Of course we can't really predict what will happen for sure until we're already there and the format is dead. That said, I don't encourage banning of Brainstorm.

I still have faith in the R&D department and I'm hoping there will be changes in the coming months that will restore balance. Through the years I've followed the format grow since the SCG Open started, if there's one thing I've learned it's that hive mentality is strong in the States. News flash: Here and in this format you will find exactzies repeating in the finals. I mean 75 cards with singleton Temporal Spring, fuck! Really?

Why not stop being lazy and instead of netdecking and/or whining around town, adapt, playtest, innovate?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I wouldn't have blinked if Wizards had banned Brainstorm before they printed two really good blue creatures that have a shit-ton of synergy with the card.

Banning Brainstorm at this point seems like common sense.

[Aggro_zombies]

Why not stop being lazy and instead of netdecking and/or whining around town, adapt, playtest, innovate?
This doesn't really happen in Standard and there are far more people playing that format than Legacy. Usually when you see a new deck do well at a large tournament it's the product of one of a handful of deck designers or a one-hit wonder that can only be successfully piloted by the dude who placed with it.

I mean, didn't LaPille's recent article about why Modern blows chalk up the lack of interest in that format to a lack of stock lists for people to copy? When R&D is handwaving away a format sucking by saying the player base is too lazy to innovate or come up with something themselves, you know you have a problem.

[TsumiBand]

This doesn't really happen in Standard and there are far more people playing that format than Legacy. Usually when you see a new deck do well at a large tournament it's the product of one of a handful of deck designers or a one-hit wonder that can only be successfully piloted by the dude who placed with it.

I mean, didn't LaPille's recent article about why Modern blows chalk up the lack of interest in that format to a lack of stock lists for people to copy? When R&D is handwaving away a format sucking by saying the player base is too lazy to innovate or come up with something themselves, you know you have a problem.

Yeah LaPille's commentary on that article was despicable. "What, you guys. We banned all the unfun cards, now that you don't have to worry about good control OR good combo you can't come up with anything? Buncha sheeple."

I want to jump on the "Merfolk doesn't play it" argument re: Brainstorm, but I doubt that would cut it this time. When SCG moves on something it tends to be a result of information from up the stream - their goofball Legacy buylist preceded by a giant hike in the price of Modern staples, before it was a real format, was almost catering to the bandwagoneers. Unless they have a bunch of bald triplets sitting in a vat of goo predicting the future I can only assume they were just privy to a certain kind of information and moved on it. I hesitate to think that someone with their weight in the community just jumps on a topic like "Ban Brainstorm" without talking to someone upstream.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Since there's no good reason for Merfolk to not play Brainstorm, I think that argument kind of sucked in the first place.

[nedleeds]

When I read the SCG event coverage and these are the kind of plays I'm looking at from the Quarterfinals and on... It doesn't really make me want to give a crap about what the opinions coming from said SCG results are showing anyone...

Quarterfinals: Alex Bertoncini vs. Tony Murata (http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/144_quarterfinals_alex_bertoncini_.html)

(Tries to rush the KotR under no pressure played right into a Daze. He even lucks out and gets it back a turn later from Exhume, and apparently even though he's got the StP in hand... Decides to wait until after Gitaxias draws before trying to remove him? :eyebrow: To the shock and awe of precisely zero people, it gets FoW'd after the draw 7.)

Anyway... On topic, banning Brainstorm would be dumb as hell. Would I rage quit over it all Hollywood drama style? Nah. But I'd probably have to take a little bit of a break to seriously re-evaluate exactly what format WotC has left me in which I can actually enjoy and play the cards I want to.

Plucking the top card of the deck into his hand before anyone could stop him…Harrison skipped right past his Summoner's Pact trigger and was issued a death by game state.

This kind of gaff gets you laughed at in your local game store. Here we have the pioneers and "pros" of the format. Are they high? Drunk? :really:

[menace13]

Weeeeeee! Again with the ban Brainstorm Threads.

[Richard Cheese]

Can we at least change the title to something a little less apocalyptic?

Also my .02 (since everyone totally gives a shit):
If Brainstorm were banned, it would be a shame, but it wouldn't be the end of the world, and Legacy would still be head and shoulders above every other format in terms of deck/meta diversity.

[CorpT]

Can we at least change the title to something a little less apocalyptic?

Also my .02 (since everyone totally gives a shit):
If Brainstorm were banned, it would be a shame, but it wouldn't be the end of the world, and Legacy would still be head and shoulders above every other format in terms of deck/meta diversity.

SCG:Vegas
Legacy:
4x RUG Tempo
1x Elves
1x Reanimator
1x Aggro Loam
1x Burn
2x Merfolk
1x Zoo
3x Bant Blade
1x GW Blade
1x Esper Blade

Standard:
1x UB Control
1x UR Aggro
2x Bant Pod
1x Wolf Ramp
2x UW Blade
2x UW Aggro
4x GW Tokens
2x UW Illusion Aggro
1x Heartless UB

In Legacy, I see 2 styles that are over-represented: RUG Tempo and Blade decks comprising 9/16 slots.

In Standard, I see 4x GW Tokens as the most prominent deck, but nothing else.

IMO, Standard, right now, is just as, if not more diverse than Legacy. Just because there are different names for a lot of the decks doesn't mean they don't share a large % of the same cards. If anything, Brainstorm is stifling the diversity by requiring blue to be run in almost all of the decks that do well. This Standard format has no such restriction and changes week to week which color is dominant. Some weeks it is green, some it is white, some it is blue, etc... Legacy never has that. Blue is superior to every other color every week.

[Antonius]

Maybe, after they ban brainstorm, I can improve from 5-1 to 6-0 against blue decks at the next SCG.

I could seriously use the help. Jesus, those blue decks are OP!!!111!111111!!!!

[Solaran_X]

Honestly, I think they should ban Brainstorm so I don't need to track down 3 more Japanese Foil MM Brainstorms. Not sure what is worse about them...difficulty finding them...or how much they cost when you do.

[Anarky87]

Maybe, after they ban brainstorm, I can improve from 5-1 to 6-0 against blue decks at the next SCG.

I could seriously use the help. Jesus, those blue decks are OP!!!111!111111!!!!

I agree with this. When I played Aggro Loam at Gencon, the only times I lost to a blue deck was when they dropped a turn 3 10/10 Pro Everything and when after my initial seven I drew about 8 lands in a row and my only Goyf got StP'd.

Other than that, I pretty much prayed to get paired against blue decks, because there was a slim to none chance of them winning outside of Natural > Retard mode or my own deck pooping on me. Maybe people need to try some other decks out. Maverick seems to do really well against the Tempo decks as does Aggro Loam. Instead of the Good Card > Everyone Panic > BANHAMMER model, we should just let players metagame properly. Brainstorm is a great card and it does its job extremely well in fixing draws. Do I think it needs banned over other things that probably need looked at? Not at all.

[SpikeyMikey]

Since there's no good reason for Merfolk to not play Brainstorm, I think that argument kind of sucked in the first place.

There's an excellent reason for Merfolk not to play Brainstorm. It's worse EV than every other card in their deck.

I don't think banning Brainstorm would by any means kill blue in this format. Honestly, for all people's talk of Brainstorm as a "skill" card, what it really is is a "lazy man's card". People keep bad hands and rely on Brainstorm to draw into good cards. They waste removal or counters and expect Brainstorm to dig later on to save them from these bad decisions. So if it got the ban-hammer, most blue players would get significantly worse, but it wouldn't change what happens at the top by much.

However, you need to be really careful in how far you go towards nerfing blue. The constant rants about "blue dominance" worry me. I can build a deck that does well against various tempo and aggro control strategies in blue without using blue. What I cannot do without blue is build a deck that will beat the masses of combo that will rise in a meta without enough blue to keep it in check. And while some people (*cough* Dr. Jones *cough*) will say that decks without counters can be built to do well against combo, the ability for counterless decks to compete with combo is a function of Force of Will's presence forcing combo players to build resiliency into their decks. Otherwise, it'd be SI mirrors and every non-combo list would have to start with 4xLeyline of Sanctity.

In a word, be careful what you wish for, people. Modern has shown what happens to a format when you combine a large cardpool with weak control elements. Without a field that's at least 40% (approximately) blue, Legacy would be a hellish format with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Killing blue doesn't make your bigpileoshit.dec any better. It just means you lose to something different.

[catmint]

However, you need to be really careful in how far you go towards nerfing blue. The constant rants about "blue dominance" worry me. I can build a deck that does well against various tempo and aggro control strategies in blue without using blue. What I cannot do without blue is build a deck that will beat the masses of combo that will rise in a meta without enough blue to keep it in check. And while some people (*cough* Dr. Jones *cough*) will say that decks without counters can be built to do well against combo, the ability for counterless decks to compete with combo is a function of Force of Will's presence forcing combo players to build resiliency into their decks. Otherwise, it'd be SI mirrors and every non-combo list would have to start with 4xLeyline of Sanctity.

In a word, be careful what you wish for, people. Modern has shown what happens to a format when you combine a large cardpool with weak control elements. Without a field that's at least 40% (approximately) blue, Legacy would be a hellish format with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Killing blue doesn't make your bigpileoshit.dec any better. It just means you lose to something different.

very wise words... and that is also the reason why they will be smart enough not to ban brainstorm (at least that's what I am hoping)...

[Mr. Safety]

There's an excellent reason for Merfolk not to play Brainstorm. It's worse EV than every other card in their deck.

I don't think banning Brainstorm would by any means kill blue in this format. Honestly, for all people's talk of Brainstorm as a "skill" card, what it really is is a "lazy man's card". People keep bad hands and rely on Brainstorm to draw into good cards. They waste removal or counters and expect Brainstorm to dig later on to save them from these bad decisions. So if it got the ban-hammer, most blue players would get significantly worse, but it wouldn't change what happens at the top by much.

However, you need to be really careful in how far you go towards nerfing blue. The constant rants about "blue dominance" worry me. I can build a deck that does well against various tempo and aggro control strategies in blue without using blue. What I cannot do without blue is build a deck that will beat the masses of combo that will rise in a meta without enough blue to keep it in check. And while some people (*cough* Dr. Jones *cough*) will say that decks without counters can be built to do well against combo, the ability for counterless decks to compete with combo is a function of Force of Will's presence forcing combo players to build resiliency into their decks. Otherwise, it'd be SI mirrors and every non-combo list would have to start with 4xLeyline of Sanctity.

In a word, be careful what you wish for, people. Modern has shown what happens to a format when you combine a large cardpool with weak control elements. Without a field that's at least 40% (approximately) blue, Legacy would be a hellish format with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Killing blue doesn't make your bigpileoshit.dec any better. It just means you lose to something different.

Word up...

[CorpT]

very wise words... and that is also the reason why they will be smart enough not to ban brainstorm (at least that's what I am hoping)...

Those were wise words, indeed. Legacy has FoW and Daze to help, but that may not be enough. On the other hand, the impending combo winter doom that was threatened with the banning of Misstep never did materialize.

IMO, printing non-Blue answers is probably the better solution. Printing non-blue versions of cards that are on power level with Brainstorm is an option. Printing Delver and Snapcaster was just insulting. Blue should be playable, not nerfed into the ground. But that doesn't mean other colors shouldn't be playable too. Right now, they are support colors for blue.

[SpikeyMikey]

Those were wise words, indeed. Legacy has FoW and Daze to help, but that may not be enough. On the other hand, the impending combo winter doom that was threatened with the banning of Misstep never did materialize.

IMO, printing non-Blue answers is probably the better solution. Printing non-blue versions of cards that are on power level with Brainstorm is an option. Printing Delver and Snapcaster was just insulting. Blue should be playable, not nerfed into the ground. But that doesn't mean other colors shouldn't be playable too. Right now, they are support colors for blue.

No, but we didn't have a combo winter before Misstep was printed either. That was just Chicken Littleism. I think you're right that non-blue Legacy playable cards would be the best solution. Especially in the form of library manipulation. Sylvan Library was a great card. Sensei's Divining Top is even better (and is, as an aside, my vote for best card in the format as it provides greater increased card quality over the course of a medium to long game than any other card in the format). A green or white instant speed filter effect would be great.

Not to nitpick, but do you think that other colors are support for blue or that blue is support for other colors? When I play Bant, the best cards are green and white, but blue gels it all together nicely (and provides me with Rhox War Monk) because of the library manipulation and tempo-counters.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Plucking the top card of the deck into his hand before anyone could stop him…Harrison skipped right past his Summoner's Pact trigger and was issued a death by game state.

This kind of gaff gets you laughed at in your local game store. Here we have the pioneers and "pros" of the format. Are they high? Drunk? :really:

Since Alex Bertoncini does not live in Vegas it is possible he was exhausted from travel and two days of Magic playing. I mean I'm all for people not mindlessly worshiping and/or regurgitating whatever any pro says, but don't make the mistake of thinking he's not a very good player.

[CorpT]

Not to nitpick, but do you think that other colors are support for blue or that blue is support for other colors? When I play Bant, the best cards are green and white, but blue gels it all together nicely (and provides me with Rhox War Monk) because of the library manipulation and tempo-counters.

That's hard to say and I'm sure there is a sliding scale. Maverick + Brainstorm is going to be a lot different than Canadian Thresh. Even if GW is dominant, the Brainstorm seems like it is putting it over the top.

[Aggro_zombies]

I agree with this. When I played Aggro Loam at Gencon, the only times I lost to a blue deck was when they dropped a turn 3 10/10 Pro Everything and when after my initial seven I drew about 8 lands in a row and my only Goyf got StP'd.

Other than that, I pretty much prayed to get paired against blue decks, because there was a slim to none chance of them winning outside of Natural > Retard mode or my own deck pooping on me. Maybe people need to try some other decks out. Maverick seems to do really well against the Tempo decks as does Aggro Loam. Instead of the Good Card > Everyone Panic > BANHAMMER model, we should just let players metagame properly. Brainstorm is a great card and it does its job extremely well in fixing draws. Do I think it needs banned over other things that probably need looked at? Not at all.
You're looking at people "metagaming properly": playing exact copies of the same list in the finals while we see the same decks over and over again.

See, the reason why people aren't going to metagame outside of making specific tweaks for blue mirrors (outside of obvious netdecking) is this: everyone knows that nonblue decks lose to combo. Everyone knows that blue beats combo. If you're afraid enough of combo you will just play a blue deck and be done with it. As long as enough people believe you can beat everything with blue, blue will dominate because "you can beat everything with it."

See the problem here? Blue decks are obviously not bulletproof, but if you're basing your deck choice decisions off of T8 or T16 evidence, there's little to suggest otherwise. Sure, it could be that 17-whatever is chock-full of blue killers, but that data won't show up for possibly weeks. People check a T16, see infinite blue and a couple of other decks, write off the other decks as flukes/good players with bad decks, and assume that infinite blue made it to the top because blue is the best and they should therefore play blue. Then the next tournament has too many blue decks and not enough blue-predator decks, and the latter don't show up in the T16 in large enough quantities to break the pattern because of bad matchups/bad beats/ average pilots. And so the cycle continues.

Plus, in Legacy, it's enormously expensive to switch decks once you've built something (outside of a narrow range of sister decks or building a "budget" option like Affinity or Dredge). It's possible that people are showing up with only blue decks because that's all they've got.

EDIT: I think that people arguing that the metagame is fine because foils exist and people are just too stupid/sheeple to play them are focusing too much on matchups in a vacuum and not enough on the psychology behind a metagame. If you believe that Snapcaster Mage is insane and Delver of Secrets is a better Wild Nacatl, then you have little reason to play a deck like Zoo. Whether or not beliefs like that are "correct" in an objective sense is irrelevant if they are never tested because, say, the meta is such that Snapcaster actually is insane and Delver actually is a better Nacatl. Put another way: sometimes, if enough people believe something, that will inform their deck choices in such a way as to make the belief "true" regardless of whether or not it is actually true in a perfect metagame.

[Richard Cheese]

SCG:Vegas
Legacy:
4x RUG Tempo
1x Elves
1x Reanimator
1x Aggro Loam
1x Burn
2x Merfolk
1x Zoo
3x Bant Blade
1x GW Blade
1x Esper Blade

Standard:
1x UB Control
1x UR Aggro
2x Bant Pod
1x Wolf Ramp
2x UW Blade
2x UW Aggro
4x GW Tokens
2x UW Illusion Aggro
1x Heartless UB

In Legacy, I see 2 styles that are over-represented: RUG Tempo and Blade decks comprising 9/16 slots.

In Standard, I see 4x GW Tokens as the most prominent deck, but nothing else.

IMO, Standard, right now, is just as, if not more diverse than Legacy. Just because there are different names for a lot of the decks doesn't mean they don't share a large % of the same cards. If anything, Brainstorm is stifling the diversity by requiring blue to be run in almost all of the decks that do well. This Standard format has no such restriction and changes week to week which color is dominant. Some weeks it is green, some it is white, some it is blue, etc... Legacy never has that. Blue is superior to every other color every week.

A couple nitpicks here:

First, that's one event, and just the top 16. Sure you can go back multiple months and show RUG and Stoneblade still dominating in general. You would also see stuff like Elves, Reanimator, TES, Aggro Loam, Junk, Maverick, Burn, Zoo, Deadguy, Dredge, Belcher, Painted Stone, etc. So yes, there are a small handful of DTB in Legacy right now, but the number of viable decks in the current meta is still huge.

Second, Standard just rotated, so isn't it still adapting to the new card pool?

[force_of_phil]

Instead of banning Brainstorm, they could give other colors better card selection and maindeckable ways to interact with combo. I don't know what they could reasonably print that would hold a candle to what blue has, but in the mean time they could stop giving blue new power cards in every set and take a look at making the other parts of the color pie meaningful in eternal formats.

[bakofried]

Quick nitpick; it was a 2/2 split between maverick and bant blade. SCG typed it up wrong.

[Antonius]

you need to know:

Jacob Kory didn't play Bant, he played John Mccain.

[sdematt]

When are you going to post a tournament report, Tony? They're really entertaining.

-Matt

[DragoFireheart]

Snip

-You're wasting your time. The blue haters will continue to whine about blue because they believe that if they whine enough, things will go their way regardless of whether blue should be nerfed or not.

Look at Modern. Modern is what happens when your control base is too weak. Combo runs rampant. WotC bans combo into the ground. All that's left that is worth playing is Zoo.

If you want a blue-less format, go play Modern. Seriously. I'm tired of all of the bad arguments regarding Brainstorm and how people are comparing it to tutors (Mystical Tutor and SotF). Brainstorm is a good cantrip, but it's not a tutor. It's powerful, but so are many other cards.

I say this so many times but none listen: if you want scissors (aggro) better, you don't nerf paper(control): you nerf rock (combo) so people will be less afraid of playing aggro decks or you buff scissors(aggro) so it doesn't auto-lose to combo decks.

Why would I bother with a deck that pays 1G for a 4/5 when I can pay 2U for a 15/15 Annihilator 6 with protection from spells WITH counter backup and I can't stop it?

Why would I bother with a deck that pays G for a 3/3 when I can pay BB to put a 6/6 into my graveyard that lets me draw 7 cards a turn and makes your hand go away WITH counter backup while I also can't stop it?

Why would I bother with a deck that pays 1GW for a 2/2 that can grow big when I can pay 2GG for a 10/10 with protection from everything WITH counter backup and I can't stop it?


Oh wait, I play blue decks so I CAN stop that crap.

Edit: But go ahead. Nerf the "blue" control decks that keep the blue combo decks in check. The above will still find their combo cards just fine with other cantrips, but the control decks will now have a harder time keeping them in check.

[troopatroop]

Hey, mr. way too much bold text? The source called... and it wants you to calm down. You're kinda right, tho! haha O_o


Brainstorm is Skill Intensive, Fun, and Powerful, and it doesn't affect the board. It's not broken, not even card advantage without a shuffle effect. On its own, it's a wonderful magic card, one of the most fun to play, and it's the freaking oil to the vehicle that is Legacy. How dare you contest, that every magic player, young and old, should be able to cast their Brainstorms! Who would ever WANT this garbage? It would take out such an amazing dynamic of the format, one that no other format can boast. Leave us our Brainstorm/Jace/Stonforge Mystic! This is Legacy!

[TsumiBand]

You're looking at people "metagaming properly": playing exact copies of the same list in the finals while we see the same decks over and over again.

See, the reason why people aren't going to metagame outside of making specific tweaks for blue mirrors (outside of obvious netdecking) is this: everyone knows that nonblue decks lose to combo. Everyone knows that blue beats combo. If you're afraid enough of combo you will just play a blue deck and be done with it. As long as enough people believe you can beat everything with blue, blue will dominate because "you can beat everything with it."

See the problem here? Blue decks are obviously not bulletproof, but if you're basing your deck choice decisions off of T8 or T16 evidence, there's little to suggest otherwise. Sure, it could be that 17-whatever is chock-full of blue killers, but that data won't show up for possibly weeks. People check a T16, see infinite blue and a couple of other decks, write off the other decks as flukes/good players with bad decks, and assume that infinite blue made it to the top because blue is the best and they should therefore play blue. Then the next tournament has too many blue decks and not enough blue-predator decks, and the latter don't show up in the T16 in large enough quantities to break the pattern because of bad matchups/bad beats/ average pilots. And so the cycle continues.

Plus, in Legacy, it's enormously expensive to switch decks once you've built something (outside of a narrow range of sister decks or building a "budget" option like Affinity or Dredge). It's possible that people are showing up with only blue decks because that's all they've got.

EDIT: I think that people arguing that the metagame is fine because foils exist and people are just too stupid/sheeple to play them are focusing too much on matchups in a vacuum and not enough on the psychology behind a metagame. If you believe that Snapcaster Mage is insane and Delver of Secrets is a better Wild Nacatl, then you have little reason to play a deck like Zoo. Whether or not beliefs like that are "correct" in an objective sense is irrelevant if they are never tested because, say, the meta is such that Snapcaster actually is insane and Delver actually is a better Nacatl. Put another way: sometimes, if enough people believe something, that will inform their deck choices in such a way as to make the belief "true" regardless of whether or not it is actually true in a perfect metagame.

+1. Doesn't anyone remember how fucking hard they had to pull to make Blue decent in Legacy? Anyone remember that whole 'support color' phase it went through? mmm?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I see a lot of incoherent posts that basically just call anyone who makes an argument for Brainstorm's banning a whiner. It might shock some people to learn that in this Magical card game cards are banned for being too good on occasion.

Also lol somewhat really trotted out the rock-paper-scissors thing again.

[DragoFireheart]

I see a lot of incoherent posts that basically just call anyone who makes an argument for Brainstorm's banning a whiner. It might shock some people to learn that in this Magical card game cards are banned for being too good on occasion.

- If I see a rabbit, I'm going to call it a rabbit. People are essentially whining about brainstorm when they should be whining about the lack of good non-blue combo hate cards or the fact that combo and combo/control decks are pretty powerful without those "unbalanced" control decks.




Also lol somewhat really trotted out the rock-paper-scissors thing again.

lol at you for trying to claim that BS is good in merfolk. That comment you made pretty much kills your credibility. However, lets ignore evidence that modern offers shall we? Lets ignore the fact that a weak control base is only going to encourage more combo decks and more bannings from WotC. Nope, lets completely ignore that and ban cards we "think" are too powerful without first understanding what the actual problem is. Nope, people totally didn't play combo after the death of MMS: people played aggro decks en mass.

Nope, lets ignore all of this.

[trivial_matters]

I swear these discussions repeat about once a month. Nothing sparks a good-natured debate better than talk of banning some card or another. Until recently that was Misstep, Force of Will, before that Tarmogoyf perhaps, now it's Brainstorm.

There are some genuinely good points being made, but it usually doesn't take long for the trolling to start.

/disappears

[damionblackgear]

Perhaps, if people didn't give crap like this so much of an ear, we wouldn't have to deal with all of these banning.

YES, Brainstorm is a good card. I like to refer to it as the Training Wheels for Legacy but, that doesn't mean that it should be banned. It is a filter for your hand. As a late game topdeck, it's worse than Ponder (which at least let's you shuffle if you're boned in the next coming draws).

If you're tired of seeing it, learn to play without it. Don't ban it so people who are new, or can't think, don't have the urge to play without it. Otherwise, what's next on the chopping block? Knight of the Reliquary? Stoneforge Mystic? Dual Lands? Legacy?

So, I'm hoping, although my faith in people has been dwindling for some time, that this will be the last post in this thread. I'm hoping that perhaps the lack of attention will allow Wizards to not look at this as a thread to ban another card because of it. I'm hoping that if this isn't the last post, people will at least post requesting Wizards not ban Brainstorm as the title to their post.

[death]

Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion and I would respect it if IBA took his stand regarding Brainstorm.

But I'm going to be the fist to call this one out. I think Snapcaster Mage is the culprit, not Brainstorm.. I can't fathom how this card slipped through R&D, it's insultingly good against combo and aggro, hence the blue tempo dominance.

IMO, if you're not playing 4x Snapcaster/Stoneforge or 4x Snapcaster/Tarmogoyf yet, you're doing it wrong.

[Aggro_zombies]

I see a lot of incoherent posts that basically just call anyone who makes an argument for Brainstorm's banning a whiner. It might shock some people to learn that in this Magical card game cards are banned for being too good on occasion.

Also lol somewhat really trotted out the rock-paper-scissors thing again.
I'd don't think Brainstorm is inherently too good. I don't even think Brainstorm is too good with fetchlands. However, if we assume that Brainstorm is a large part of blue's dominance, and that blue will remain dominant for as long as people think blue is unbeatably good (who knows how long with the modern internet echo chamber), then Brainstorm needs to go to keep the format from getting stale.

I don't think banning Brainstorm will actually dent blue all that much in practice, though. I mean, yes, there will be a lot of people who jump ship because "Brainstorm is gone, that must mean blue is shit now," but Ponder and Preordain are fine replacements that aren't that much worse. At least, they're not so much worse as to completely handicap blue. I guess blue gets less attractive when you can't Snapcaster to draw EOT, but...

[Gheizen64]

-You're wasting your time. The blue haters will continue to whine about blue because they believe that if they whine enough, things will go their way regardless of whether blue should be nerfed or not.

Look at Modern. Modern is what happens when your control base is too weak. Combo runs rampant. WotC bans combo into the ground. All that's left that is worth playing is Zoo.

If you want a blue-less format, go play Modern. Seriously. I'm tired of all of the bad arguments regarding Brainstorm and how people are comparing it to tutors (Mystical Tutor and SotF). Brainstorm is a good cantrip, but it's not a tutor. It's powerful, but so are many other cards.

I say this so many times but none listen: if you want scissors (aggro) better, you don't nerf paper(control): you nerf rock (combo) so people will be less afraid of playing aggro decks or you buff scissors(aggro) so it doesn't auto-lose to combo decks.

Why would I bother with a deck that pays 1G for a 4/5 when I can pay 2U for a 15/15 Annihilator 6 with protection from spells WITH counter backup and I can't stop it?

Why would I bother with a deck that pays G for a 3/3 when I can pay BB to put a 6/6 into my graveyard that lets me draw 7 cards a turn and makes your hand go away WITH counter backup while I also can't stop it?

Why would I bother with a deck that pays 1GW for a 2/2 that can grow big when I can pay 2GG for a 10/10 with protection from everything WITH counter backup and I can't stop it?


Oh wait, I play blue decks so I CAN stop that crap.

Edit: But go ahead. Nerf the "blue" control decks that keep the blue combo decks in check. The above will still find their combo cards just fine with other cantrips, but the control decks will now have a harder time keeping them in check.

So much false in this post. Brainstorm being gone would nerf non-storm combo far more than it would control and would nerf storm about as much as control with tempo slightly below that. But please we can go on with this assumption that control is someway saving us from a combo winter like MM was (it wasn't, it made non-blue more playable, had to be banned with snapcaster in the picture for sure), with the "it's only an enabler", and why not the "eternal should be blue" and "everyone that say brainstorm should be banned is a whiner".

I'm out.

[Tammit67]

IMO, if you're not playing 4x Snapcaster/Stoneforge or 4x Snapcaster/Tarmogoyf yet, you're doing it wrong.

Those are good cards right now but....

I'd argue Scavenging ooze is better than all of these. I've been unable to pair up more than just ooze and goyf, but an active ooze sure gives people headaches.

[DragoFireheart]

So much false in this post. Brainstorm being gone would nerf non-storm combo far more than it would control and would nerf storm about as much as control with tempo slightly below that. .


Last time I checked, Ponder and Preordain existed. Those combo decks would be fine.

[xfxf]

Well if Brainstorm started to get targeted as the new ban candidate this much, I fear it'll most probably get banned. I don't think it needs to be banned but I'm almost positive that it will get banned.

Blue hate of the masses and the sympathy of the Wizards for the whiners are unnegligible and unescapable.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Losing Brainstorm only hurts Doomsday. ANT and TES would be totally fine. 4x Ponder 4x Preordain would not enable busted LED tricks but ... they would survive. Hell, I tested a TNT list with 2x Brainstorms a few weeks ago and it worked flawlessly. No reason those can't become Top/Sleight of Hand ... something like that.

While it won't entirely nerf blue control, it will put a damper on it since it really hurts CB strategies and they no longer have instant speed responses outside of ... Impulse or ... something of that nature.

I actually think it would make the format more fun even though Doomsday probably won't survive (although I would try anyway). Banning Brainstorm would make Suicide and Rock variants more powerful and combine: Null Rod, hand destruction, and hate bears ... u have a fighting chance since these decks can no longer protect their hands. I could totally get behind it, it might make the format even more diverse which is the main reason I play legacy.

[DragoFireheart]

While it won't entirely nerf blue control, it will put a damper on it since it really hurts CB strategies and

What are you talking about? CB? It's a niche deck at best and the example you provided isn't really relevant.

[caiomarcos]

So much false in this post. Brainstorm being gone would nerf non-storm combo far more than it would control and would nerf storm about as much as control with tempo slightly below that. But please we can go on with this assumption that control is someway saving us from a combo winter like MM was (it wasn't, it made non-blue more playable, had to be banned with snapcaster in the picture for sure), with the "it's only an enabler", and why not the "eternal should be blue" and "everyone that say brainstorm should be banned is a whiner".

I'm out.

That. Every reason DragoFireHeart gave to not ban Brainstorm (control plays them and control keeps us safe from NO Bant, Show and Tell and Reanimator) is actually the opposite. I believe those three fearsome decks would be heavily nerfed without Brainstorm.

Now, I'm not for banning Brainstorm, but I do think that blue is too much over the edge lately and that's not healthy for the format. At first it seems that Brainstorm is to blame, but maybe it's Snapcaster or a whole bunch of diffetent factors that we can not just fathom right now.

I'd say let the format settle a little more, let it find a resting point and then, if it still as dominated by blue as it is now, something should be done.

[CorpT]

That. Every reason DragoFireHeart gave to not ban Brainstorm (control plays them and control keeps us safe from NO Bant, Show and Tell and Reanimator) is actually the opposite. I believe those three fearsome decks would be heavily nerfed without Brainstorm.

This. Three things I learned from this thread:

1) If you think Brainstorm is too powerful, you're a whiner.
2) If you would quit Magic if Brainstorm were banned, you're not a whiner, you're rational.
3) Just like with Misstep, Brainstorm is the only thing holding back Combo from dominating everything.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

- If I see a rabbit, I'm going to call it a rabbit. People are essentially whining about brainstorm when they should be whining about the lack of good non-blue combo hate cards or the fact that combo and combo/control decks are pretty powerful without those "unbalanced" control decks.

There's plenty of non-blue combo hate. Also I don't know why you think Brainstorm is only played in control, have you played this format at all?


lol at you for trying to claim that BS is good in merfolk.

It is good in merfolk. It's good in everything with blue. You actually need compelling reasons not to play Brainstorm in Legacy, and none of them are sufficient if you're not already in blue.

I don't know, maybe you've never played with the card? Maybe you're new to Legacy? Brainstorm is ludicrously good for its casting cost, people comparing it to Preordain or Ponder are missing the point entirely.


However, lets ignore evidence that modern offers shall we? Lets ignore the fact that a weak control base is only going to encourage more combo decks and more bannings from WotC. Nope, lets completely ignore that and ban cards we "think" are too powerful without first understanding what the actual problem is. Nope, people totally didn't play combo after the death of MMS: people played aggro decks en mass.

Nope, lets ignore all of this.

Nothing in this post makes me think you understand anything about how Legacy or even Magic generally works.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

+1. Doesn't anyone remember how fucking hard they had to pull to make Blue decent in Legacy? Anyone remember that whole 'support color' phase it went through? mmm?

I can only hope you're being sarcastic here.

[sligh16]

I don't think banning Brainstorm would by any means kill blue in this format. Honestly, for all people's talk of Brainstorm as a "skill" card, what it really is is a "lazy man's card". People keep bad hands and rely on Brainstorm to draw into good cards. They waste removal or counters and expect Brainstorm to dig later on to save them from these bad decisions. So if it got the ban-hammer, most blue players would get significantly worse, but it wouldn't change what happens at the top by much.


THIS. SO. MUCH. Talking about Brainstorm as a skill intensive card is like talking about how difficult is to swim. Once you know a couple of pointers, you're good to go and have a fool-proof panic button against poor decisions.

If you really like the Brainstorming effect and can't even breathe without knowing you at least have it in your deck, you can always play Jace and brainstorm the whole game if u wish.

Also, the "if they ban brainstorm legacy will die" argument is kinda stupid, how many people quitted legacy because they printed a card that invalidated so many creatures?(protip: It's called Tarmogoyf) Legacy has survived a lot of these "the sky is falling" moments, so it's nothing new.

Really, blame Wizards for printing more and more blue silly cards that keep stretching the distance between Blue and the other colors.

[DragoFireheart]

It is good in merfolk.



Nothing in this post makes me think you understand anything about how Legacy or even Magic generally works.

EDIT:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=1&mlow=1&ylow=2007&dhigh=8&mhigh=11&yhigh=2010&player=&dname=&format=Legacy+Archive&aname=&main=Cursecatcher%3B+Brainstorm&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=1&mlow=1&ylow=2007&dhigh=8&mhigh=11&yhigh=2010&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=&main=Cursecatcher%3B+Brainstorm&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

In the time span of 4 years, only 19 Merfolk decks attempted to use Brainstorm. If it was so amazing in Merfolk, why didn't more people use it?

IBA, swallow your pride and admit you are wrong. Get over it.



This. Three things I learned from this thread:

1) If you think Brainstorm is too powerful, you're a whiner.
2) If you would quit Magic if Brainstorm were banned, you're not a whiner, you're rational.
3) Just like with Misstep, Brainstorm is the only thing holding back Combo from dominating everything.


Yep, didn't read my posts. Let me help you out:

1) There is nothing wrong with whining, but whining about the wrong aspects is bad. Brainstorm isn't too powerful, aggro decks are simply not powerful enough compared to the other two pillars. At this point, it's either Zoo, Maverick or something Rogue.

2) I wouldn't quit magic but I'd certainly stop playing Legacy either entirely or to the point that it would be the same as "quitting". Not because of some inane love for Brainstorm but because of the bad precedent it would set. What's next on the chopping block? Force of Will? After seeing what happened to Modern, I'd rather less bannings and more printings of cards to help offset the balance.

3) While brainstorm alone isn't holding back combo decks, losing brainstorm would certainly weaken control decks far more than combo decks. Combo decks want the cantrip effects, but the card quality of Brainstorm is far more important for control decks to help maintain control while also help keeping mana open for counters. Blue based combo decks typically run Daze/Spell Pierce/FoW so they don't need to keep mana open. Slower control decks want hard counters since conditional mana counters are bad later game so they usually won't run cards like Daze.


That. Every reason DragoFireHeart gave to not ban Brainstorm (control plays them and control keeps us safe from NO Bant, Show and Tell and Reanimator) is actually the opposite. I believe those three fearsome decks would be heavily nerfed without Brainstorm.


See above. Those decks wouldn't lose much from Brainstorm compared to control decks that want a instant speed cantrip that provides excellent quality. Blue-combo decks don't mind tapping out to search for their game winning card because they are likely to kill you faster than you will them.

[SpikeyMikey]

It is good in merfolk. It's good in everything with blue. You actually need compelling reasons not to play Brainstorm in Legacy, and none of them are sufficient if you're not already in blue.

IBA, normally, even when I disagree with you, I feel there's some logic to your opinions. In this, however, I could not possibly agree less.

Brainstorm is not good in Merfolk because A: you have no shuffle effects, meaning it's roughly on par with Index and B: even if you added 8 fetches just to support Brainstorm, your deck is too consistent to take advantage of the card. You have 3 different cards. You have land cards, counter cards and lord cards. That is your deck. And by and large, it's irrelevant which land, which counter or which lord you have. So what you're doing, when you Brainstorm in Fish, is wasting precious time and mana durdling with infitesimally minor upgrades and giving your opponent a chance to develop and beat you with their superior cards.

Now if you want to cut good cards, cards that you actually want to see, for a smoothing mechanism in a deck that needs smoothing about once every time Tom LaPille gets laid (somewhat rarer than blue mooons, for those keeping score at home), be my guest. But it's a suboptimal way to fill that slot.


I don't know, maybe you've never played with the card? Maybe you're new to Legacy? Brainstorm is ludicrously good for its casting cost, people comparing it to Preordain or Ponder are missing the point entirely.


I've played with the card. I've played with it since Keeper, before fetches were even a twinkle in MaRo's eye. I've played it in Standard. I've played it in Extended. I've played it in Legacy, Vintage and even Limited. And it's a strong card. It's never been as strong as people claim it is, however. People fall all over themselves to go further and further out on how good it is.

Por ejemplo, Nightmare said in an article not long ago that in some places it's better than Ancestral Recall. And in truth, there are certain situations where Brainstorm is better. The statement isn't exactly incorrect. But if I were building a deck and could run 4 of one or the other, there's no goddamn question in my mind which one I'd be running. I don't care if I'm running NO or if I fear Thoughtseize, I'm running AR over Brainstorm every day of the week. If I accidentally draw into my Progenitus, well then goddamnit, I'll draw 3 more cards and discard the fucker. And that's the kind of shit I'm talking about. People act like Brainstorm is the second coming of the Christ. It's not.

[dahcmai]

Well, that's one way to make Discard decent again. I've actually kind of missed those decks in a way, but I'd miss Brainstorm. I'd be pretty annoyed mostly since it would boil down to whiners winning more than being a matter of game swinging overpowered broken cards .

[BooleanLobster]

I'd say let the format settle a little more, let it find a resting point and then, if it still as dominated by blue as it is now, something should be done.
(off topic)
When has Legacy ever "settled down and found a resting point"? Every set in recent memory has had enough Legacy cards to alter the meta.
Scars brought us Mental Misstep and Green Sun's Zenith.
Zendikar block had Punishing Fire, Jace, Stoneforge Mystic, Emrakul, and Vengevine.
Alara block made Bant aggro and Naya Zoo from basically nothing. It also made ANT and NO/Pro into real decks.
Lorwyn/Shadowmoor made Merfolk, Faeries, and Painter.

Legacy always moves.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

EDIT:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=1&mlow=1&ylow=2007&dhigh=8&mhigh=11&yhigh=2010&player=&dname=&format=Legacy+Archive&aname=&main=Cursecatcher%3B+Brainstorm&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=1&mlow=1&ylow=2007&dhigh=8&mhigh=11&yhigh=2010&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=&main=Cursecatcher%3B+Brainstorm&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

In the time span of 4 years, only 19 Merfolk decks attempted to use Brainstorm. If it was so amazing in Merfolk, why didn't more people use it?

IBA, swallow your pride and admit you are wrong. Get over it.

Efficient market theory, when a coherent argument fails.

It may happen, Drago, that in your world people make only the best possible decisions, but this is not the world the rest of us inhabit.


Yep, didn't read my posts. Let me help you out:

1) There is nothing wrong with whining, but whining about the wrong aspects is bad. Brainstorm isn't too powerful, aggro decks are simply not powerful enough compared to the other two pillars. At this point, it's either Zoo, Maverick or something Rogue.

Other two pillars, God what is this 1995.

Look, PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: THE IDEA THAT MAGIC DECKS BREAK INTO AGGRO/CONTROL/COMBO AND THAT THESE DECKS HAVE A SIMPLE RPS RELATIONSHIP IS AN OUTDATED THEORY THAT MAKES YOU LOOK STUPID WHEN YOU REPEAT IT BECAUSE OF HOW INCREDIBLY OVER SIMPLISTIC AND FLATOUT WRONG IT IS.

Also,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csPPqdbcVwM


2) I wouldn't quit magic but I'd certainly stop playing Legacy

Don't care.


After seeing what happened to Modern, I'd rather less bannings and more printings of cards to help offset the balance.

Christ, what, are you serious? I mean they've printed plenty of good cards, anything not very narrow and linear gets stuffed into a Brainstorm deck and anything that is narrow and linear or color intensive just doesn't get played.


3) While brainstorm alone isn't holding back combo decks, losing brainstorm would certainly weaken control decks far more than combo decks.

This is true because control decks are the ones that often draw multiples of the wrong card that become useless together, and has to assemble pieces, whereas combo decks can just draw into wait no sorry I'm getting this mixed up aren't I.


Combo decks want the cantrip effects, but the card quality of Brainstorm is far more important for control decks to help maintain control while also help keeping mana open for counters. Blue based combo decks typically run Daze/Spell Pierce/FoW so they don't need to keep mana open. Slower control decks want hard counters since conditional mana counters are bad later game so they usually won't run cards like Daze.

I mean blue decks right now are generally running either a fast clock + Wasteland + Daze maybe Stifle, or they're running Counterbalance.

Combo can't survive in Legacy because people really like playing blue.


See above. Those decks wouldn't lose much from Brainstorm compared to control decks that want a instant speed cantrip that provides excellent quality. Blue-combo decks don't mind tapping out to search for their game winning card because they are likely to kill you faster than you will them.

I think people don't understand why combo decks run Ponder/Preordain and non-combo blue decks often don't and why this doesn't actually mean that the loss of Brainstorm hurts combo less.

Combo decks generally run more cantrips because they really, really need to be able to get their combo together to not die. Control decks, tempo decks, aggro-control, whatever we call the vague mashup of Brainstorm and Snapcasters and various off-color spells that makes up half of the decks in Legacy at the moment, they don't need as much consistency fixing. They run Brainstorm because it's ridiculous. They can afford to cut other fixers if they want because they don't pull as much weight.

[Pippin]

Reading TheInfamousBearAssassin talking about banning Brainstorm is like reading Dr. Jones and his anti Force of Will crusade(s).

Neither of those are likely to happen, Legacy was always blue friendly format.

[Namida]

In the time span of 4 years, only 19 Merfolk decks attempted to use Brainstorm. If it was so amazing in Merfolk, why didn't more people use it?

Oddly enough, if you have SCG Premium, you should read Ari's Article about this very phenomenon. The premise is summed up in these words: "When was the last time you saw an actually NEW aggro list? You know, where people changed things and adapted to the metagame more than just some sideboard slots?" And he goes on to then advocate Brainstorm in Merfolk.

Just something to think about.

[Rizso]

Those were wise words, indeed. Legacy has FoW and Daze to help, but that may not be enough. On the other hand, the impending combo winter doom that was threatened with the banning of Misstep never did materialize.

IMO, printing non-Blue answers is probably the better solution. Printing non-blue versions of cards that are on power level with Brainstorm is an option. Printing Delver and Snapcaster was just insulting. Blue should be playable, not nerfed into the ground. But that doesn't mean other colors shouldn't be playable too. Right now, they are support colors for blue.

Delver and Snapcaster is nowhere the powerlvl in standard as it is in legacy obviously, swords, paths and brainstorms that pushes them. White is still the dominating force in standard while red is still the underdog just like in every other formats. Red is that poor kid that is bullied and being an outsider and cant get into the group with the coolkids.

[Cthuloo]

Efficient market theory, when a coherent argument fails.

It may happen, Drago, that in your world people make only the best possible decisions, but this is not the world the rest of us inhabit.


Assigning a greater probability to a statement that goes against the available evidence providing only tautological reasoning isn't really going to convince anyone.

Back on topic. Brainstorm is powerful. Correct. Broken. Possibly. One of the cards that make people play legacy. Quite likely.

Other cards in the previous category include e.g. dual lands, FoW, LeD, Vial. They used to include Sotf, too.

All these cards are in some sense broken. Legacy is basically a broken format, but it's fun also because of that. If you ban all of the broken cards, many people are going to quit the format. Not because blue or combo or whatever other archetype is nerfed, but because the format would become less and less appealing to them.

Banning one of the format staples is always going to hurt the format in some way, even when it's necessary. Think about SotF: along with the dominating combo archetype, we lost an enormous variety of different decks, interactions and possibility, which is a pity.

I don't know if I would quit in case they ban brainstorm. For sure I would not rage quit based on some honorable stance about my love for the card. I would still try the new format, and probably find it less interesting than before. If my interest goes below a certain threshold I would find something more interesting to do.

[caiomarcos]

(off topic)
When has Legacy ever "settled down and found a resting point"? Every set in recent memory has had enough Legacy cards to alter the meta.
Scars brought us Mental Misstep and Green Sun's Zenith.
Zendikar block had Punishing Fire, Jace, Stoneforge Mystic, Emrakul, and Vengevine.
Alara block made Bant aggro and Naya Zoo from basically nothing. It also made ANT and NO/Pro into real decks.
Lorwyn/Shadowmoor made Merfolk, Faeries, and Painter.

Legacy always moves.

You are right, I stand corrected. If Wizards keep up the good work - playable cards are always good - we will never see a settled down format. With that we could follow two logics: wait and hope for a change that weakens blue and Brainstorm or realize that no matter what Wizards releases blue will forever be the dominating color, like it always have been. Now, if it stays as dominant as it is today (in my view, much more than other times) something should be done.

[SpikeyMikey]

Oddly enough, if you have SCG Premium, you should read Ari's Article about this very phenomenon. The premise is summed up in these words: "When was the last time you saw an actually NEW aggro list? You know, where people changed things and adapted to the metagame more than just some sideboard slots?" And he goes on to then advocate Brainstorm in Merfolk.

Just something to think about.

Yes, well, Ari's been drinking the kool aid too. He's been head over heels for Brainstorm for a while.

I'd say Maverick is pretty new. I mean, we're talking all of about 8 months old? And Lewis Laskin's Green and Taxes and Brian Fischer/Jason Jaco's Junk and Taxes although those you could classify more as midrange than true aggro. Burn's made quite the comeback recently, making a couple of T8's on the Open circuit.

Don't get me wrong, I'd agree with Ari's point that people are too tentative when it comes to playing with their listings in the face of a changing metagame, but that doesn't mean NO innovation goes on.

[AriLax]

Oddly enough, if you have SCG Premium, you should read Ari's Article about this very phenomenon. The premise is summed up in these words: "When was the last time you saw an actually NEW aggro list? You know, where people changed things and adapted to the metagame more than just some sideboard slots?" And he goes on to then advocate Brainstorm in Merfolk.

Just something to think about.

To be fair, Merfolk didn't want the card previously. Just recently other decks are changing from beating Merfolk via grinding it and using their late game Daze/Vial draws as a way to out CA them instead of the old plan of "I'm going to play a Moat".

Honestly, it's obvious Brainstorm is by far the single most powerful card in the format, with the only real competitors being Entomb + LED. The power level and format dominance exists for a ban, it's just a matter of whether it actually makes the format better to do so. Yes, you have a million different Brainstorm decks, but they are all fairly unique. Reminds me of Remand when that card was in Standard. Some huge percent of the meta played it and it was obnoxiously good, but the decks were all completely different (Flare, Tron, Magnivore, UW aggro, Sea Stompy).

I think there was a valid argument when Misstep was still around as there really wasn't a significant difference between any of them (all sort of mid-range decks with Jace protection, it was just choose your removal and cheap threats). Now, the set of Stifle-Daze-Snapcaster-Jace-Spell Snare-Countertop pulls decks in enough different directions that this isn't true. Can Thresh plays out way differently than WU which plays out way differently than CB top etc. There's an actual metagame, non-blue decks DO exist (happens the good players are overly biased to blue to begin with, doubly skewing results). I wouldn't ban Brainstorm now, but it definitely shouldn't just be off the table moving forward.

[Catitas]

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/feature-article-the-legacy-of-brainstorm/

nice article

[Marske]

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/feature-article-the-legacy-of-brainstorm/

nice article

Don't drag me into this!!! ;)

@Ari_Lax,
So basically I was ahead of the curve with me suggesting Merfolk playing Brainstorm?! :eyebrow:

[Hof]

So, Merfolk is not using Brainstorm but is going to, real soon, unless Brainstorm gets emergency banned.
Is that how it is now?
Oh dear god, I sure hope Wizards saves us all from brainstorming fish before its too late.

Seriously, relax. This is Legacy, not Modern. We have weays to deal with things like to many blue decks.
GW Maverick (still underplayed in the US), Junk/Rock, Burn, Lands, even monored Goblins. All of these decks eat blue for breakfast, including Merfolk with or without cantrips.

[Marske]

So, Merfolk is not using Brainstorm but is going to, real soon, unless Brainstorm gets emergency banned.
Is that how it is now?
Oh dear god, I sure hope Wizards saves us all from brainstorming fish before its too late.

This post made me LOL so hard.... seriously.

[Catitas]

I believe brainstorm and snapcaster should be banned... for all the obvious reasons, the problem seems to be that people dont want to try out a format without it, and if wizards find out to be a mistake banning those cards they can unban them...

[Cthuloo]

if wizards find out to be a mistake banning those cards they can unban them...

This looks rather improbable, at least in short time.

[DragoFireheart]

Snip

-Nevermind the fact that part of my post wasn't aimed at you (which only further shows you don't read) but a quick glance at your post confirms you're just a waste of my time. Don't bother responding to my posts further in this topic because I won't even bother reading them until you want to drop your pride and admit you were wrong.



Reading TheInfamousBearAssassin talking about banning Brainstorm is like reading Dr. Jones and his anti Force of Will crusade(s).

Neither of those are likely to happen, Legacy was always blue friendly format.


-Pretty much this. There is quite a lot of love for brainstorm and even if banning it didn't harshly impact the format, it would piss off a great deal of the Legacy player base I'm guessing. People may jump ship if they see WotC starting to handle Legacy in the same way they handled Modern. If people truly feel that blue is getting too much love then WotC should print solid cards in the other colors for people to use.




Don't get me wrong, I'd agree with Ari's point that people are too tentative when it comes to playing with their listings in the face of a changing metagame, but that doesn't mean NO innovation goes on.

-It's hard to have innovation in a non-rotating format. Outside of new cards being printed or old cards being rediscovered (Peacekeeper to fight SotF for example), there is only so much you can do with Legacy.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Last time I checked, Ponder and Preordain existed. Those combo decks would be fine.

Apparently you don't understand how important it is for Storm to turn shit cards into good cards. By definition, combo decks need to assemble a specific combination of cards at any particular time, and other cards are not good at that particular time. A card that allows you to exchange the cards you don't need to cards that immediately win you the game is absurd. This is why Brainstorm is stronger in combo than it is in many blue decks.

Imagine you're playing TES. Your hand is Infernal Tutor, Brainstorm, and some Chrome Moxen (a shit hand). You Brainstorm into LED, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, put 2 moxen back on top, and win immediately. No other cantrip does that. Another scenario I encounter commonly. I'm playing Spiral Tide and cast Time Spiral. My post-Spiral hand is crappy and mostly lands. I cast Brainstorm and draw into three business spells, putting back two lands. All of a sudden my hand is sauce and I win, due to the virtual card advantage I gain by ditching shit cards that aren't relevant to my combo at that point in time. Again, no other cantrip does that. That's not even mentioning Doomsday shenanigans - that deck is probably not playable at all without BS as it figures prominently in so many piles.

If this post doesn't make complete sense to you, go play combo for a while. I'm aware that you have a huge boner for blue control, but to think that combo would not be weaker because of a Brainstorm ban is just plain retarded.

[death]

I believe brainstorm and snapcaster should be banned... for all the obvious reasons, the problem seems to be that people dont want to try out a format without it, and if wizards find out to be a mistake banning those cards they can unban them...

That is too harsh, like I said a page back: Snapcaster Mage should be the one to go, if ever, not Brainstorm.

[Mr. Safety]

Apparently you don't understand how important it is for Storm to turn shit cards into good cards. By definition, combo decks need to assemble a specific combination of cards at any particular time, and other cards are not good at that particular time. A card that allows you to exchange the cards you don't need to cards that immediately win you the game is absurd. This is why Brainstorm is stronger in combo than it is in many blue decks.

Imagine you're playing TES. Your hand is Infernal Tutor, Brainstorm, and some Chrome Moxen (a shit hand). You Brainstorm into LED, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, put 2 moxen back on top, and win immediately. No other cantrip does that. Another scenario I encounter commonly. I'm playing Spiral Tide and cast Time Spiral. My post-Spiral hand is crappy and mostly lands. I cast Brainstorm and draw into three business spells, putting back two lands. All of a sudden my hand is sauce and I win, due to the virtual card advantage I gain by ditching shit cards that aren't relevant to my combo at that point in time. Again, no other cantrip does that. That's not even mentioning Doomsday shenanigans - that deck is probably not playable at all without BS as it figures prominently in so many piles.

If this post doesn't make complete sense to you, go play combo for a while. I'm aware that you have a huge boner for blue control, but to think that combo would not be weaker because of a Brainstorm ban is just plain retarded.

Bingo...

[DragoFireheart]

Apparently you don't understand how important it is for Storm to turn shit cards into good cards.

Um, I don't remember if I said it would affect storm or not as that is a completely different beast. Yes, losing brainstorm would hurt Storm since they also need the card quality MUCH more than other combo decks. I agree with what you said.

[ivanpei]

Losing brainstorm will cause ALL combo decks to drastically drop in power level. Its the consistency provided by Brainstorm that allows combo decks to Tick. Unless everyone wants to play 1 trick ponies like Belcher, banning Brainstorm will surely be another nail in Combo's coffin.

I for one am against Brainstorm's banning. The card is the hallmark of legacy. People play legacy to play powerful cards. It's the format's main attraction. I gave up on Modern when they banned all the good stuff. I'm not playing no weak-ass format.

It's like telling Vintage players: Sorry blue is too strong, we're banning Ancestral, Time Walk and Timetwister, you guys can go suck it. You cannot take down the pillar of legacy. It is not healthy to keep banning stuff. Let the regulating apply to Modern. I want to play with the Strong Stuff in legacy.

[DragoFireheart]

Losing brainstorm will cause ALL combo decks to drastically drop in power level. Its the consistency provided by Brainstorm that allows combo decks to Tick. Unless everyone wants to play 1 trick ponies like Belcher, banning Brainstorm will surely be another nail in Combo's coffin.


Yes and no. Combo decks lose the power of brainstorm but it doesn't hurt the non-storm blue based decks as much as it would hurt blue-control decks and storm decks. Ponder and Preordain would provide enough consistency for digging for a combo piece that losing brainstorm wouldn't negatively affect blue-combo decks like Reanimator/NO RUG/SnT as much as Storm or blue control that want the cantrip and card quality that Brainstorm provides.

[death]

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/241/octtier.png

This is the updated the "Decks to Beat" for this month.. Keep in mind that this is the period that Snapcaster Mage became legal. The top 2,3,4 decks (UGR (Thresh), UW (Stoneblade), and BUG (TA)) pushing aggro and combo aside. What else do these decks have in common aside from Brainstorm? Banning Brainstorm is surely going to be a major buzz kill, but nerfing these 3 decks, by taking away Snapcaster Mage, may bring combo and various aggro decks back up the charts. Unless of course you're already fine with 1 G/W 2,3,4 RUG-UW-BUG.

[DragoFireheart]

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/241/octtier.png

This is the updated the "Decks to Beat" for this month.. Keep in mind that this is the period that Snapcaster Mage became legal. The top 2,3,4 decks (UGR (Thresh), UW (Stoneblade), and BUG (TA)) pushing aggro and combo aside. What else do these decks have in common aside from Brainstorm? Banning Brainstorm is surely going to be a major buzz kill, but nerfing these 3 decks, by taking away Snapcaster Mage, may bring combo and various aggro decks back up the charts. Unless of course you're already fine with 1 G/W 2,3,4 RUG-UW-BUG.

People are fine with Zoo, Splinter Twin, Affinity and jank in Modern. What's the big deal here? :laugh:

Edit: I find it funny that blue is getting a lot of hate at the moment but the best deck from last month was GW creature beats. Even more hilarious is they have a creature that kicks the crap out of Tarmogoyfs. LOL!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yes, well, Ari's been drinking the kool aid too. He's been head over heels for Brainstorm for a while.

Everyone is, have you played the card? It's nuts. That's why some people are so willing to flip out and attack anyone who suggests that the card is the main contributor to blue's over-dominance of the field, which would otherwise be a "fucking duh" statement.


I'd say Maverick is pretty new.

Not really an aggro deck, much more midrange. To the extent that these distinctions make sense anymore, I mean I think a flying Wild Nacatl is pretty aggressive, but when you toss it in with Counterbalance, who knows...


I mean, we're talking all of about 8 months old? And Lewis Laskin's Green and Taxes and Brian Fischer/Jason Jaco's Junk and Taxes although those you could classify more as midrange than true aggro. Burn's made quite the comeback recently, making a couple of T8's on the Open circuit.

These lists don't seem to be performing from what I can see. Also burn is just fundamentally inconsistent.



Don't bother responding to my posts further in this topic because I won't even bother reading them until you want to drop your pride and admit you were wrong.

Sounds like something a little tosser would say.


Yes and no. Combo decks lose the power of brainstorm but it doesn't hurt the non-storm blue based decks as much as it would hurt blue-control decks

I've already demonstrated why this is wrong, and anyone who's actually played with the decks in question should understand why it's wrong. Free mulligans are just a lot better in combo, there's a reason Serum Powder never got played in Thresh.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Apparently you don't understand how important it is for Storm to turn shit cards into good cards. By definition, combo decks need to assemble a specific combination of cards at any particular time, and other cards are not good at that particular time. A card that allows you to exchange the cards you don't need to cards that immediately win you the game is absurd. This is why Brainstorm is stronger in combo than it is in many blue decks.

Imagine you're playing TES. Your hand is Infernal Tutor, Brainstorm, and some Chrome Moxen (a shit hand). You Brainstorm into LED, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, put 2 moxen back on top, and win immediately. No other cantrip does that. Another scenario I encounter commonly. I'm playing Spiral Tide and cast Time Spiral. My post-Spiral hand is crappy and mostly lands. I cast Brainstorm and draw into three business spells, putting back two lands. All of a sudden my hand is sauce and I win, due to the virtual card advantage I gain by ditching shit cards that aren't relevant to my combo at that point in time. Again, no other cantrip does that. That's not even mentioning Doomsday shenanigans - that deck is probably not playable at all without BS as it figures prominently in so many piles.

If this post doesn't make complete sense to you, go play combo for a while. I'm aware that you have a huge boner for blue control, but to think that combo would not be weaker because of a Brainstorm ban is just plain retarded.

Oh my this was a good post.

Hey Drago I'm going to call you out for posturing if you actually respond to me after huffing that you wouldn't, so you should respond to this one instead.

[death]

I think the problem would arise when people start going "all in" with Maverick versus blue and fail or if Maverick falls out of flavor, blue tempo/control decks are going to eat a big chunk off that chart.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Assigning a greater probability to a statement that goes against the available evidence providing only tautological reasoning isn't really going to convince anyone.

I mean I don't really want to get into too much detail, but the arguments are

1) Fish runs a shit ton of cards that are shitty in the mid and late game, including you know lands, and

2) Have you played fucking Brainstorm before Christ, it's like you would actually raise the power level and consistency of Fish by cutting four cards at fucking random and swapping some islands for fetches, and assuming you didn't hit all your LoAs it would still be an upgrade.


Back on topic. Brainstorm is powerful. Correct. Broken. Possibly. One of the cards that make people play legacy. Quite likely.

Other cards in the previous category include e.g. dual lands, FoW, LeD, Vial. They used to include Sotf, too.

All these cards are in some sense broken. Legacy is basically a broken format, but it's fun also because of that. If you ban all of the broken cards, many people are going to quit the format. Not because blue or combo or whatever other archetype is nerfed, but because the format would become less and less appealing to them.

Banning one of the format staples is always going to hurt the format in some way, even when it's necessary. Think about SotF: along with the dominating combo archetype, we lost an enormous variety of different decks, interactions and possibility, which is a pity.

I don't know if I would quit in case they ban brainstorm. For sure I would not rage quit based on some honorable stance about my love for the card. I would still try the new format, and probably find it less interesting than before. If my interest goes below a certain threshold I would find something more interesting to do.

Conversely, the loss of interest in other people in a format where blue just got ridiculously better than it already was has to be taken into account, though.

[DragoFireheart]

I think the problem would arise when people start going "all in" with Maverick versus blue and fail or if Maverick falls out of flavor, blue tempo/control decks are going to eat a big chunk off that chart.

It doesn't matter what Maverick players do. The printing of Delver and Snappy already gave tempo decks a big boost.

As much as I don't want to see brainstorm banned since this is the last format you can use four of it in, it would be interesting to see if blue was in fact "nerfed" as much as the theorycrafts are suggesting. I suspect that combo decks that weren't storm (Reanimator/SnT/ maybe No RuG) would quickly become popular again since other cantrips can easily fill the void of brainstorm for cantripping.

Here is the thing that bothers me most: lets assume brainstorm is banned but blue is STILL the "best" deck. What would people suggest banning next to nerf blue? Force of Will? Other cantrips? Snapcaster?

[TooCloseToTheSun]

I mean I don't really want to get into too much detail, but the arguments are

1) Fish runs a shit ton of cards that are shitty in the mid and late game, including you know lands, and

2) Have you played fucking Brainstorm before Christ, it's like you would actually raise the power level and consistency of Fish by cutting four cards at fucking random and swapping some islands for fetches, and assuming you didn't hit all your LoAs it would still be an upgrade.

I have never played a merfolk list that wasn't consistent, you are either building it wrong or playing it wrong.

[caiomarcos]

Random rant: Delver is fucking nuts. 3/3 shroud turn 239203? No thanks, take this 3/2 flyer turn 2. Oh, it also pitches to fow and makes your Brainstorm even better. And can be played off any dual you might have or that 1 or 2 basics you might eventually play.

Brainstorm is as broken as a card can be without being an obvious ban, but I think Jace, Snapcaster, Delver and whatnot just sent blue way out of reach for other colors. Let's not lay the full blame on good old Brainstorm.

[DragoFireheart]

Random rant: Delver is fucking nuts. .

Sshh, you might cause the blue-haters to call for Delver to get banned. :wink:

[Darkenslight]

IMHO, Brainstorm is both one of the defining cards of Legacy, and a massive skill-tester (and I'm not talking about the Chimney Pimp here). Yes, it is a very potent card, because of how it interacts with a subsection of other cards.

Is it bannable? Probably. Is it a good idea to? Probably not. The reason for this is that it does three things for combo and control decks:

1) it hides your most potent spells form discard;
2) in combination with fetchlands, it enables you to get rid of excess garbage/duplicates that you have:
3) it forces people to be LESS interactive, through forcing fewer decisions to be made.

Now maybe it's just a case of shooting the messenger, as it were. But I, for one, would be at least partly interested in seeing a Brainstorm-less meta. Perhaps its banning might be a catalyst for non-Blue decks to have more "balance".

[death]

Here is the thing that bothers me most: lets assume brainstorm is banned but blue is STILL the "best" deck. What would people suggest banning next to nerf blue? Force of Will? Other cantrips? Snapcaster?

I wouldn't worry about it. This is why I'm calling Snapcaster out. Without Brainstorm, blue will die a slow, miserable death and maybe the format. Blue isn't going to be the best deck, never. Neither Maverick, nor ANT/TES without Brainstorm. I'm not classified as a 'pro' but I surely wouldn't prefer casting a sorcery speed/overcosted cantrip over Brainstorm when playing control. I wouldn't dare pick up ANT without Brainstorm. The format will be filled with random fugly decks.

I'm OK if blue decks stay as the "best" deck because I also like to play control sometimes. But what I would like see is non-GSZ aggro having a chance against Snapcaster-blue decks. I think Snapcaster's power level is way up in this format and players just haven't realize it yet.

[DragoFireheart]

Now maybe it's just a case of shooting the messenger, as it were. But I, for one, would be at least partly interested in seeing a Brainstorm-less meta. Perhaps its banning might be a catalyst for non-Blue decks to have more "balance".

I doubt it would have the effects that some are intending for it to have. Instead, the following might happen:

A- Blue-control decks are still played due to fear of combo decks. Nothing changes and, inevitably, more calls for banning blue cards get called. Force of Will, Snapcaster Mage, Delver of Secrets, Ponder, and JTMS may get suggested next.

B- Blue-control becomes weakened more than combo decks would be weakened by the loss of brainstorm, resulting in a surge of combo decks. I predict the surge would last longer than the one that followed MMS.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Oh my this was a good post.

Hey Drago I'm going to call you out for posturing if you actually respond to me after huffing that you wouldn't, so you should respond to this one instead.

He admitted I was right. I think a lot of people just don't play combo, and thus don't understand the dynamics of why something like Brainstorm is sauce in the archetype.


I doubt it would have the effects that some are intending for it to have. Instead, the following might happen:

A- Blue-control decks are still played due to fear of combo decks. Nothing changes and, inevitably, more calls for banning blue cards get called. Force of Will, Snapcaster Mage, Delver of Secrets, Ponder, and JTMS may get suggested next.

B- Blue-control becomes weakened more than combo decks would be weakened by the loss of brainstorm, resulting in a surge of combo decks. I predict the surge would last longer than the one that followed MMS.

I've already explained why (B) is bullshit - Brainstorm is stronger in combo than it is in blue control. As for (A), at this point I'm not even sure combo is the reason. I think people either just like playing blue, or play it because it's infinitely better than everything else. I know people in my meta all play blue even when I'm the only combo player (or when there's no combo). And that's either because they like it, or because they think (correctly) that it's better than everything else. I don't play it because I don't enjoy it - although I do use plenty of blue cards in combo decks.

[DragoFireheart]

I wouldn't worry about it. This is why I'm calling Snapcaster out. Without Brainstorm, blue will die a slow, miserable death and maybe the format. Blue isn't going to be the best deck, never. Neither Maverick, nor ANT/TES without Brainstorm. I'm not classified as a 'pro' but I surely wouldn't prefer casting a sorcery speed/overcosted cantrip over Brainstorm when playing control. I wouldn't dare pick up ANT without Brainstorm. The format will be filled with random fugly decks.


- I agree with all of this.



I'm OK if blue decks stay as the "best" deck because I also like to play control sometimes. But what I would like see is non-GSZ aggro having a chance against Snapcaster-blue decks. I think Snapcaster's power level is way up in this format and players just haven't realize it yet.

-I feel like a goal-post is being moved at this point. Green is the color of good beaters: to have a aggro deck be better than the color that nearly defines having the best creatures seems like bad design. Decks that splash green are inevitably going to be the best aggro-based decks that aren't aggro-control or aggro-combo.

Right now, the choices for tier 1 are Maverick while Zoo is appearing to be tier 1.5. I guess I'm wondering if trying to artificially force the meta to have a balanced group of control, aggro, and combo decks is a wise decision.

[DragoFireheart]

He admitted I was right.

-More evidence that IBA doesn't read posts and is more concerned with trolling.



I think a lot of people just don't play combo, and thus don't understand the dynamics of why something like Brainstorm is sauce in the archetype.

- For storm decks I understand why since you need X amount of cards to go off (and Doomsday but I haven't seen it played lately so I didn't mention it). I wasn't including those kinds of decks because the ones that play non-storm play blue typically and I still see them as less harmed by the loss of brainstorm compared to blue control and storm decks.


I've already explained why (B) is bullshit - Brainstorm is stronger in combo than it is in blue control.

- For storm combo I could agree but not for the other combo decks.


As for (A), at this point I'm not even sure combo is the reason. I think people either just like playing blue, or play it because it's infinitely better than everything else. I know people in my meta all play blue even when I'm the only combo player (or when there's no combo). And that's either because they like it, or because they think (correctly) that it's better than everything else. I don't play it because I don't enjoy it - although I do use plenty of blue cards in combo decks.

-If blue is better than everything else, then why are Maverick decks performing so well? Why isn't Merfolk performing so well (Not everyone plays blade control)?

[Admiral_Arzar]

-More evidence that IBA doesn't read posts and is more concerned with trolling.




- For storm decks I understand why since you need X amount of cards to go off (and Doomsday but I haven't seen it played lately so I didn't mention it). I wasn't including those kinds of decks because the ones that play non-storm play blue typically and I still see them as less harmed by the loss of brainstorm compared to blue control and storm decks.

It's difficult to quantify whether each combo archetype is more hurt by the loss of BS. The issue with NO/SNT style decks is you often draw too many dudes, and you never really want to. Drawing Progenitus in any NO shell is really bad, which is part of why Brainstorm is so good there. The fact that you can no longer hide good cards from Hymn hurts all combo decks immensely as well (I've won games with Spiral Tide vs. triple Hymn draws out of Junk largely because of the power of Brainstorm).



-If blue is better than everything else, then why are Maverick decks performing so well? Why isn't Merfolk performing so well (Not everyone plays blade control)?

As for your point about Maverick - that deck is basically a blue hate deck. It is designed to beat the blue matchup at the expense of the combo matchup. However, with blue as strong as it is there isn't much combo in the format right now, making Maverick an amazing metagame choice. Even extremely resilient decks like Spiral Tide have great difficulty fighting through the new breed of Snapcaster-powered tempo decks. Case in point - I don't think I ever lost a match to Canadian Threshold with Spiral Tide pre-Snapcaster (they were all very close, however). The new RUG Tempo lists are a very difficult matchup though - Snapcaster + REB is absolutely backbreaking.

Merfolk has a very poor matchup against Maverick (and any other non-blue aggro floating around). It's never been that great against Canadian Threshold, and a lot of the new breed of Snapcaster and Stoneforge - powered blue decks aren't easy matchups either. The day where Merfolk can mop up all the blue decks in the format that don't play lots of red cards is gone, seemingly.

[DragoFireheart]

It's difficult to quantify whether each combo archetype is more hurt by the loss of BS. The issue with NO/SNT style decks is you often draw too many dudes, and you never really want to. Drawing Progenitus in any NO shell is really bad, which is part of why Brainstorm is so good there. The fact that you can no longer hide good cards from Hymn hurts all combo decks immensely as well (I've won games with Spiral Tide vs. triple Hymn draws out of Junk largely because of the power of Brainstorm).


Alright fair enough. I still disagree that control decks are hurt less than combo but I agree that any deck using brainstorm and then losing it for Ponder/Preordain would be worse off. I simply disagree with the degree of how much those combo decks would be weakened by. I'm not denying that Brainstorm is a powerful card, but if the goal is to balance the format and not merely weaken blue then I feel that banning Brainstorm is the wrong way to go about it.




As for your point about Maverick - that deck is basically a blue hate deck. It is designed to beat the blue matchup at the expense of the combo matchup. However, with blue as strong as it is there isn't much combo in the format right now, making Maverick an amazing metagame choice. Even extremely resilient decks like Spiral Tide have great difficulty fighting through the new breed of Snapcaster-powered tempo decks. Case in point - I don't think I ever lost a match to Canadian Threshold with Spiral Tide pre-Snapcaster (they were all very close, however). The new RUG Tempo lists are a very difficult matchup though - Snapcaster + REB is absolutely backbreaking.

Merfolk has a very poor matchup against Maverick (and any other non-blue aggro floating around). It's never been that great against Canadian Threshold, and a lot of the new breed of Snapcaster and Stoneforge - powered blue decks aren't easy matchups either. The day where Merfolk can mop up all the blue decks in the format that don't play lots of red cards is gone, seemingly.

-Can you see the pattern here?

[UnderwaterGuy]

Does anyone else really like the current format and think no bannings are needed?

I've only been playing/following Legacy for about a year but I think right now there are a lot of high quality decks that can compete with each other. Since the banning of Misstep we've seen plenty of different decks take top spots and we've seen the game shift towards predators of last week's top decks.

It seems like we have a well balanced format that will keep shifting. FoW and Brainstorm are staples in this format and they are important pieces. Removing Brainstorm will make many decks weaker and reduce the consistency of all those decks. Why do so many want to play with weaker cards?

[CorpT]

Removing Brainstorm will make many decks weaker and reduce the consistency of all those decks. Why do so many want to play with weaker cards?

We should just ban Mountain, Forest, Plains and Swamp and make things easier for new players. That way they wouldn't even try to play a non-Blue deck.

[Admiral_Arzar]

-Can you see the pattern here?

Yes. I was amazed when WOTC was n00b enough to print Snapcaster (in blue!) but I guess not entirely surprised. I can only imagine how stupid the format would be if Misstep was still legal.




It seems like we have a well balanced format that will keep shifting. FoW and Brainstorm are staples in this format and they are important pieces. Removing Brainstorm will make many decks weaker and reduce the consistency of all those decks. Why do so many want to play with weaker cards?

I don't support a Brainstorm ban. I won't bullshit about how it's integral to the format or I'd quit without it. I'd just be annoyed that the combo decks I like to play would be weakened. However, 80% blue decks in tournaments is not a "balanced" format (Yes, I'm aware that the percentage at the most recent SCG wasn't that high).

[Mr. Safety]

This is just my opinion:

In a world with instant-speed communications and regular legacy tournaments, I think the legacy metagame (globally) is one big mish-mash of self-fulfilling prophecy. We hear that Mental Misstep is banned, therefore we assume combo will rise up, therefore we decide to play control to keep combo in check. Before combo is even played in the next tourney, it's nerfed. Back to a control-heavy metagame with a handful of aggro and combo decks filling in a few slots.

I feel the same about Brainstorm. In a theoretical world, banning Brainstorm means that control decks are weaker, therefore I should be playing combo, but if combo is on the rise, I should be playing control. Maverick steps in to take advantage of the control decks. We're back to the beginning...self-fulfilling prophecy.

[UnderwaterGuy]

what

[Mr. Safety]

what

Put another way, 'perception is reality'. It doesn't matter if the second-guessing you are doing is right or not, it accomplishes the same end.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Put another way, 'perception is reality'. It doesn't matter if the second-guessing you are doing is right or not, it accomplishes the same end.

Sorry, my post was directed at CorpT but you were faster than I.

Your post makes sense

[CorpT]

Sorry, my post was directed at CorpT but you were faster than I.

Your post makes sense

You said:


Removing Brainstorm will make many decks weaker and reduce the consistency of all those decks. Why do so many want to play with weaker cards?

What you missed was: "Removing Brainstorm will make many Blue decks weaker and reduce the consistency of those decks."

That's the whole point. Right now, it is stupid to play a deck without Brainstorm. Like it was stupid to play anything without Jace and SFM last Standard. I, and a lot of other people, think that is stupid. Why make a format where one color should be played to the exclusion of all the others?

My comment was just an extension of this. Why not just ban non-Island basics and be done with it? It's effectively being done, but people on the "Brainstorm is good because it gives consistency" bandwagon forget that there are other colors besides blue. I don't hate blue. I play it all the time. I just don't think a format should require you to play Blue (or any other color).

[SpikeyMikey]

It's difficult to quantify whether each combo archetype is more hurt by the loss of BS. The issue with NO/SNT style decks is you often draw too many dudes, and you never really want to. Drawing Progenitus in any NO shell is really bad, which is part of why Brainstorm is so good there. The fact that you can no longer hide good cards from Hymn hurts all combo decks immensely as well (I've won games with Spiral Tide vs. triple Hymn draws out of Junk largely because of the power of Brainstorm).



As for your point about Maverick - that deck is basically a blue hate deck. It is designed to beat the blue matchup at the expense of the combo matchup. However, with blue as strong as it is there isn't much combo in the format right now, making Maverick an amazing metagame choice. Even extremely resilient decks like Spiral Tide have great difficulty fighting through the new breed of Snapcaster-powered tempo decks. Case in point - I don't think I ever lost a match to Canadian Threshold with Spiral Tide pre-Snapcaster (they were all very close, however). The new RUG Tempo lists are a very difficult matchup though - Snapcaster + REB is absolutely backbreaking.

Merfolk has a very poor matchup against Maverick (and any other non-blue aggro floating around). It's never been that great against Canadian Threshold, and a lot of the new breed of Snapcaster and Stoneforge - powered blue decks aren't easy matchups either. The day where Merfolk can mop up all the blue decks in the format that don't play lots of red cards is gone, seemingly.

So you can't beat the new decks with existing decks. But the new decks are hardly unassailable. You simply have to look and see where the weaknesses are and exploit them. Both neo-TA and neo-C. Thresh run threat light and land light. They focus heavily on mana denial with Stifle/Waste/Daze. They rely heavily on their graveyard. So play 25 mana sources and main Extirpate/Surgical Extraction/Scavenging Ooze.

I beat neo-Thresh silly last night with the first iteration of a WBR deck I designed. I Vindicated and then Extracted his Trop and then Wasted and Extracted his Volc. At that point, the deck literally cannot cast spells. There are only 2 different colored mana sources, both non-basic. Makes Blood Moon look pretty attractive, neh?

Bring back New Horizons. They've got the same disruption package except one has Plow and the other has Bolt. I don't care how many Bolts or Stifles you Snapcaster, a Terravore is an insurmountable threat in that matchup.

There are plenty of directions you can go to beat the top tier without abandoning matchups against the rest of the field. And if your combo matchup suffers a bit because of changes you made? If your Zoo matchup falters? Well you can't beat everything and those decks aren't as popular or as successful.

[Tao]

Brainstorm OBVIOUSLY has to be banned. For arguments read what IBA is saying. I planned to go to GP Amsterdam but blues retarded overpoweredness had left me so frustated that I didn't go and stopped caring about developing something. It wouldn't have been better than a generic BS/Snapcaster deck anyway so why bother.
I wouldn't mind if they were axing Jace TMS, Ponder, Top and Preordain too while they are at it.

[John Cox]

You said:



What you missed was: "Removing Brainstorm will make many Blue decks weaker and reduce the consistency of those decks."

That's the whole point. Right now, it is stupid to play a deck without Brainstorm. Like it was stupid to play anything without Jace and SFM last Standard. I, and a lot of other people, think that is stupid. Why make a format where one color should be played to the exclusion of all the others?

My comment was just an extension of this. Why not just ban non-Island basics and be done with it? It's effectively being done, but people on the "Brainstorm is good because it gives consistency" bandwagon forget that there are other colors besides blue. I don't hate blue. I play it all the time. I just don't think a format should require you to play Blue (or any other color).

The thing is that's not the case, I would gladly play TES in a format without brainstorm because that deck looses almost nothing. Even if ponder was also banned, I could play preordain and Gitaxian probe and keep the same fundamental turn. The only negative effect ANT and TES get from loosing brainstorm is increased vulnerability to duress, however they also play that card so I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

[nedleeds]

The natural predator is Chalice decks (Stompy / Staxx variants), but Chalice decks are notoriously fragile and mulligan prone (and don't have Brainstorm to salvage unkeepable hands).

[SpikeyMikey]

Brainstorm OBVIOUSLY has to be banned. For arguments read what IBA is saying. I planned to go to GP Amsterdam but blues retarded overpoweredness had left me so frustated that I didn't go and stopped caring about developing something. It wouldn't have been better than a generic BS/Snapcaster deck anyway so why bother.
I wouldn't mind if they were axing Jace TMS, Ponder, Top and Preordain too while they are at it.

See, it's not about whether not Brainstorm is too good for the format. It's about fuck blue. Why? Because I said so.

Seriously, if you're advocating for a Legacy ban on PREORDAIN, you've maybe had too much kool aid.

[TheArchitect]

I wouldn't mind if they were axing Jace TMS, Ponder, Top and Preordain too while they are at it.

I would stop playing magic entirely if that happened. Modern looked really cool but they ruined it with the last bannings and Standard is still standard. Brainstorm is what makes legacy, legacy.

And for the record, I rarely even play decks with brainstorm, but its what makes the format interesting.

Wizards wants everyone to play Zoo, in every format. Banning Brainstorm (or other blue cantrips) just helps them with that format ruining goal of theirs.

[Intet's Attendant]

Instead of banning Brainstorm, they could give other colors better card selection and maindeckable ways to interact with combo. I don't know what they could reasonably print that would hold a candle to what blue has, but in the mean time they could stop giving blue new power cards in every set and take a look at making the other parts of the color pie meaningful in eternal formats.

This.

Give the other 4 colors ways to interact with spells and at least some decent card drawing or tutoring. The minute wizards decided that only blue should get counterspells was the minute that blue become the dominant color. Interacting with instants/sorceries should be something every color can do or they will get blown away by combo.

I propose that printing a counter-spell type card for every color would be the best way to do this. It wouldn't even be very difficult.

Examples:

Natural Snare - G
Instant
Counter target blue or black spell.

Fiery Will - R
Instant
Counter target instant spell. Fiery Will deals damage to you equal to its converted mana cost.

Taxation Trap - 1W
Instant
If an opponent controls more lands than you, you may pay 0 rather than pay ~ mana cost.
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 1.

Tourach's Treaty - BB
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller discard 2 cards at random
(black probably doesn't need counterspells as much since discard works almost as well vs instants/sorceries)

Boom! It's only a start, but by giving all 5 colors counterspell or pseudo-counterspells would go a long way in helping to balance the color pie.

[Michael Keller]

Brainstorm OBVIOUSLY has to be banned. For arguments read what IBA is saying. I planned to go to GP Amsterdam but blues retarded overpoweredness had left me so frustated that I didn't go and stopped caring about developing something. It wouldn't have been better than a generic BS/Snapcaster deck anyway so why bother.
I wouldn't mind if they were axing Jace TMS, Ponder, Top and Preordain too while they are at it.

...Obviously.

:rolleyes:

[TheArchitect]

I don't think "anti-blue" cards is a good solution. Look what happened with mental Misstep!


There's all this complaining about brainstorm, if only there was a black enchantment for 2 mana that totally pooped on brainstorm and other cantrips...

[Intet's Attendant]

I don't think "anti-blue" cards is a good solution. Look what happened with mental Misstep!


There's all this complaining about brainstorm, if only there was a black enchantment for 2 mana that totally pooped on brainstorm and other cantrips...

Chain of Mephistopheles?

[Admiral_Arzar]

i don't think "anti-blue" cards is a good solution. Look what happened with mental misstep!


There's all this complaining about brainstorm, if only there was a black enchantment for 2 mana that totally pooped on brainstorm and other cantrips...

i c wut u did there...


Chain of Mephistopheles?

You're not good at this sarcasm game.


So you can't beat the new decks with existing decks. But the new decks are hardly unassailable. You simply have to look and see where the weaknesses are and exploit them. Both neo-TA and neo-C. Thresh run threat light and land light. They focus heavily on mana denial with Stifle/Waste/Daze. They rely heavily on their graveyard. So play 25 mana sources and main Extirpate/Surgical Extraction/Scavenging Ooze.


Obviously. I was referring to my experiences with one particular deck (Spiral Tide) agains the new crop of blue decks, rather than trying to generalize. I'm currently trying to think of a way to play all swamps and maindeck Leylines, actually.

[damionblackgear]

One does not simply Brainstorm into Mordor.

[nedleeds]

Wizards wants everyone to play Zoo, in every format. Making the best 2 cheap creatures in a brand new first set of a block blue just helps them with that format ruining goal of theirs.

Fixed it.

[majikal]

As for your point about Maverick - that deck is basically a blue hate deck. It is designed to beat the blue matchup at the expense of the combo matchup.
Wait, what?

Have you ever actually played Maverick against combo decks? You fear Belcher. That's pretty much it. Sure, you'll get nuked by the god hand on turn one every once in a while, but that's true even of decks with FoW. The truth is, when you live to take your second turn (which is usually), you're very unlikely to lose to combo.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Wait, what?

Have you ever actually played Maverick against combo decks? You fear Belcher. That's pretty much it. Sure, you'll get nuked by the god hand on turn one every once in a while, but that's true even of decks with FoW. The truth is, when you live to take your second turn (which is usually), you're very unlikely to lose to combo.

I've never lost a match to Maverick with Spiral Tide (that I can remember). The matches are generally very close, but I get there every time, even though that deck rarely wins before turn 4. Sure, out of non-blue, non-black aggro decks Maverick has the best combo matchup. That doesn't mean it has a favorable combo matchup.

Speaking of which (not to derail the thread or anything), what is Maverick NOT good against? It seems to have at least decent matchups across the board (aside of Belcher et al. obviously).

[Julian23]

To be fair, Maverick has a way better (non-Hive Mind) combo matchup than a lot of other decks that are known to have a favorable control matchup like e.g. Goblins or Dredge.

[Koby]

I've never lost a match to Maverick with Spiral Tide. The matches are generally very close, but I get there every time, even though that deck rarely wins before turn 4. Sure, out of non-blue, non-black aggro decks Maverick has the best combo matchup. That doesn't mean it has a favorable combo matchup.

I agree with majikal regarding the Maverick vs Combo analysis. It's dreading that first turn kill that's a problem. Once Maverick takes a second turn, there should be enough anti-combo pieces in play to slow them down significantly.

Examples:
Turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 GSZ for Teeg
Turn 1 E-tutor (Canonist, Thorns), Turn 2 play it

Any hand that cannot setup one of those lines should be mulliganed. The deck is not designed to be able to stop a turn 1 combo kill however.



Speaking of which (not to derail the thread or anything), what is Maverick NOT good against? It seems to have at least decent matchups across the board (aside of Belcher et al. obviously).

Burn, Elves (altho it's possible to win), Hive Mind, UW Land-still.

[majikal]

Burn, Elves (altho it's possible to win), Hive Mind, UW Land-still.
Yeah, those are pretty much it, and they're all still pretty winnable with the right SB cards.

[Koby]

Yeah, those are pretty much it, and they're all still pretty winnable with the right SB cards.

That's the beauty about having the metagame propped up on Blue - it makes every matchup Maverick vs Blue, which is just tits!

[Tao]

...Obviously.

:rolleyes:

Obviously :)

[Admiral_Arzar]

I agree with majikal regarding the Maverick vs Combo analysis. It's dreading that first turn kill that's a problem. Once Maverick takes a second turn, there should be enough anti-combo pieces in play to slow them down significantly.

Examples:
Turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 GSZ for Teeg
Turn 1 E-tutor (Canonist, Thorns), Turn 2 play it

Any hand that cannot setup one of those lines should be mulliganed. The deck is not designed to be able to stop a turn 1 combo kill however.



Yeah, I'm familiar with it's anti-combo lines of play (I've gotten to play against it a number of times lately as a friend of mine picked it up). I think most of these are much stronger against traditional storm combo then they are against Spiral Tide though. I'm thinking about picking up the deck myself though, as anything that beats blue tends to make me all warm and fuzzy inside.

[Richard Cheese]

Beating Blue decks has to be the most satisfying feeling in Magic.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Beating Blue decks has to be the most satisfying feeling in Magic.

This is why pre-Snapcaster Spiral Tide was the best deck ever - it beat every blue deck without Hymn, Spellstutter Sprite, or Counterbalance. Wow this is now pretty off topic. What were we talking about? Some busted cantrip that makes people crazy?

[Tao]

I would like a "Ban Brainstorm? - Yes or No" poll.

[Koby]

I don't think Brainstorm is bannable yet. I would however, like to see some more tools to fight Blue in the next 3 sets WITHOUT giving more broken cards for blue.

[Rune]

I would like a "Ban Brainstorm? - Yes or No" poll.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22152-Would-you-like-it-if-Brainstorm-was-banned

[GGoober]

No we are talking about the issue with the Source coming up with a thread every few weeks talking about how blue/blue-cards are way too powerful in Legacy and cry for bans or cry against bans.

I'm a little annoyed by all these personally. I'm really happy where Legacy is at the moment. Even if I feel Mental Misstep still deserved a few more months to prove itself, I think Brainstorm has more than proven itself to be a fair card in YEARS. We all know it's a powerful card, but there are many such cards in Legacy (Vial, Force, NO, LED, Tendrils, Dark Ritual).

If you can whine about Brainstorm being brokenly powerful, then you can whine about anything really similarly. Brainstorm is the MOST POWERFUL cantrip in the format, but you can't compare it to other cards that function differently e.g. Ad Nauseam is the most powerful draw-spell, LED/Dark Ritual the most powerful accelerant, FoW the most powerful counterspell. Why is brainstorm in almost every blue deck sans Merfolk? Because blue is an important color in eternal formats (due to the presence of decks that want to kill you i.e. combo/aggro), and being blue, you are naturally playing a suite of cantrip/counters (by definition and nature of playing blue).

If the blue color pie functioned anywhere different, then the need for Brainstorm would not arise. In general, it's not even the color-pie functions that determine why Brainstorm is played in blue deck. It's really the format's nature that makes brainstorm a highly powerful and demanded card because it greatly improves consistency against a sea of decks that want to kill you. Brainstorm is as unfair as Vial is unfair for blue decks. If we can assign a value to Vial against blue decks and a value to Brainstorm against Legacy decks, I would say that Vial will clearly win (it generates free resource, makes all spells 'uncounterable', gives all creatures 'flash' etc).

TLDR: A card can be powerful but that doesn't mean it has to be banned or it's broken. There are examples of broken cards that should be banned, thankfully those are already on the list. Brainstorm is powerful, but nowhere broken. If it was truly broken, then non-brainstorm decks would not have a chance (which is not true e.g. Goblins/Mefolks/Zoo/Maverick etc). Brainstorm gives you an edge, but it's not broken the way Flash/Survival was i.e. you either played Flash/Survival or hate against it. I don't see much hate against Brainstorm (Chains is a great example that if Brainstorm was truly broken, non-brainstorm decks would find itself wanting to pack brainstorm-hate cards like Chains to fight it, or they chose to play Brainstorm). It's not like people are terrified of Brainstorm to the point they would play Chains, as opposed to being terrified of Flash/Survival enough to play much narrow hate when those cards existed.

[Tao]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22152-Would-you-like-it-if-Brainstorm-was-banned

Well, that is a pre Snapcaster poll.

[caiomarcos]

No we are talking about the issue with the Source coming up with a thread every few weeks talking about how blue/blue-cards are way too powerful in Legacy and cry for bans or cry against bans.

I'm a little annoyed by all these personally. I'm really happy where Legacy is at the moment. Even if I feel Mental Misstep still deserved a few more months to prove itself, I think Brainstorm has more than proven itself to be a fair card in YEARS. We all know it's a powerful card, but there are many such cards in Legacy (Vial, Force, NO, LED, Tendrils, Dark Ritual).

If you can whine about Brainstorm being brokenly powerful, then you can whine about anything really similarly. Brainstorm is the MOST POWERFUL cantrip in the format, but you can't compare it to other cards that function differently e.g. Ad Nauseam is the most powerful draw-spell, LED/Dark Ritual the most powerful accelerant, FoW the most powerful counterspell. Why is brainstorm in almost every blue deck sans Merfolk? Because blue is an important color in eternal formats (due to the presence of decks that want to kill you i.e. combo/aggro), and being blue, you are naturally playing a suite of cantrip/counters (by definition and nature of playing blue).

If the blue color pie functioned anywhere different, then the need for Brainstorm would not arise. In general, it's not even the color-pie functions that determine why Brainstorm is played in blue deck. It's really the format's nature that makes brainstorm a highly powerful and demanded card because it greatly improves consistency against a sea of decks that want to kill you. Brainstorm is as unfair as Vial is unfair for blue decks. If we can assign a value to Vial against blue decks and a value to Brainstorm against Legacy decks, I would say that Vial will clearly win (it generates free resource, makes all spells 'uncounterable', gives all creatures 'flash' etc).

TLDR: A card can be powerful but that doesn't mean it has to be banned or it's broken. There are examples of broken cards that should be banned, thankfully those are already on the list. Brainstorm is powerful, but nowhere broken. If it was truly broken, then non-brainstorm decks would not have a chance (which is not true e.g. Goblins/Mefolks/Zoo/Maverick etc). Brainstorm gives you an edge, but it's not broken the way Flash/Survival was i.e. you either played Flash/Survival or hate against it. I don't see much hate against Brainstorm (Chains is a great example that if Brainstorm was truly broken, non-brainstorm decks would find itself wanting to pack brainstorm-hate cards like Chains to fight it, or they chose to play Brainstorm). It's not like people are terrified of Brainstorm to the point they would play Chains, as opposed to being terrified of Flash/Survival enough to play much narrow hate when those cards existed.

In a void, on a one to one comparison yes, all those cards are equaly powerful. But that's not the case. So everything else you said makes no diference when we talk about decks/archetypes and not cards by themselves.

Also, your comparison "Aether Vial against permission" vs. "Brainstorm AGAINST THE WHOLE FORMAT" made me smirk.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Well, that is a pre Snapcaster poll.

Well make your own poll.

[death]

done.

Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post-Snapcaster Mage) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22547-Ban-on-Brainstorm-Yes-or-No-(Post-Snapcaster-Mage))

[Syaoran]

As far as I can see:

The argument to ban brainstorm is that it shows up everywhere, in just about every blue deck.

By this logic, shouldn't we also be banned swords, and just about every deck running white runs them?

(I can't think of a card in one of the other colors that if you're in that color, you run that card.)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

-More evidence that IBA doesn't read posts and is more concerned with trolling.

I can't help it if you admit someone is right and then turn around and continue using the argument they just disproved.

Also, responding to me through other people is still responding to me, fuck-knuckles.


I have never played a merfolk list that wasn't consistent, you are either building it wrong or playing it wrong.

Man what's awesome is late game Vials, Dazes and Cursecatchers.

No.

Merfolk is not consistent. In fact even in the early game it's incredibly inconsistent, games play completely different based on whether you drew turn 1 Vial or not for one thing.

There are so many decks that are much more consistent than Merfolk.

[GGoober]

In a void, on a one to one comparison yes, all those cards are equaly powerful. But that's not the case. So everything else you said makes no diference when we talk about decks/archetypes and not cards by themselves.

Also, your comparison "Aether Vial against permission" vs. "Brainstorm AGAINST THE WHOLE FORMAT" made me smirk.

I did that intentionally to make a point: Vial beats blue very easily. Brainstorm has an edge against most non-Brainstorm deck but the "brainstorm against the world" issue isn't clearly seen when non-brainstorm decks can still perform and put out numbers. All the while, no one is seeming to enjoy or attempt to play a deck with Vial (or Maverick) to beat blue (which happens to pack the 'all-powerful-brainstorm')

[Adan]

I just think people have the wrong approach. What I said is that Brainstorm is a kind of engine that is making decks consistent. And the playability of these decks are also very dependant on Brainstorm.

The majority of archetypes (combo, aggrocontrol and control) profit from it (EXCEPT for fcuking Jack-Elgin-"I can only with if the match would be 75 minutes"-mono nonblue controlpiles).
However, the real format-warping events were:

1) Printing of Misstep, hyping Blue
2) Ban of Misstep, making people go "Fuck yeah, no one's gonna Misstep my Entomb/Sensei's Divining Top anymore" -> renaissance of ANT, DDay, Reanimator which all happen to play Brainstorm
3) Printing of Snapcaster Mage and Delver of Secrets, making Control-strategies better and Delver being a very nice addition to Canadian Threshold which has always been a very solid deck.

I don't see this having anything to do with Brainstorm at all. I was already faceplaming when they banned Survival of the Fittest because the real reason why Survival was overpowered was Vengevine. Survival has been existent for such a long time and got the axe just because Vengevine made it overpowered. All the Survival decks before have been strong, yes, but not overpowered. They were a solid and fair contender.
I just think banning Brainstorm is the wrong approach and would damage the format needlessly.

[UnderwaterGuy]

As far as I can see:

The argument to ban brainstorm is that it shows up everywhere, in just about every blue deck.

By this logic, shouldn't we also be banned swords, and just about every deck running white runs them?

(I can't think of a card in one of the other colors that if you're in that color, you run that card.)

Lightning Bolt probably meets the same criteria. I bet Lightning Bolt is in every non-combo red deck played and the current RUG decks splash red exclusively for that card.

Just because a card is the best at what it does doesn't mean it should be banned. There will always be a best removal/filter/creature/etc card.

[Vacrix]

Cards like Brainstorm put more emphasis on the fact that Legacy players like playing Legacy because they feel more empowered by their choices and a certain amount of consistency. Remember, Brainstorm finds cards like Ad Nauseum that makes people pissed off that they lost to an overpowered, storm easy-button rather than a complex battle of choices we know as Magic. Ultimately, Brainstorm is merely an excellent enabler, but its not the problem. I mean, IS there a problem? The metagame is relatively healthy. I find that when WotC tries to force change on Legacy it creates more problems. Mental Misstep is a perfect example. I'm sure they knew the implications that card would have on the Legacy metagame and yet... they were wrong because it got banned. Thats even worse than covering up the mistake of Ad Nauseum by banning Mystical Tutor.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

However, 80% blue decks in tournaments is not a "balanced" format (Yes, I'm aware that the percentage at the most recent SCG wasn't that high).


Number of decks that are in the SCG deck database as top 16ing at an SCG Open since Innistrad became legal: 80.

Number of those running Brainstorm: 50 (62.5%)

+
7 Merfolk
2 Dredge
1 Affinity

So, 75% running blue. 80% isn't much of an exaggeration.

Looking at the top 8, 28 of the 40 are running Brainstorm, 4 are Fish, and 1 Dredge, making it 82.5%.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Wait, what?

Have you ever actually played Maverick against combo decks? You fear Belcher. That's pretty much it.

Is this like in the philosophical sense, in the same sense that a warrior shouldn't fear death or something?

Because you certainly lose to other combo decks.

[dahcmai]

I just thought of something, when's the next banned restricted announcement anyway? Isn't it like in January or June or some such? It's going to be a while before anything comes out of all that.

Let them cry. It makes me chuckle.

[dahcmai]

I wish they would get out of this "power creep" mode of theirs. I could care less if we had a pile of sets with underpowered cards like Homelands as long as it was fun as hell to draft, play sealed, and have in constructed. Who wouldn't like that? It would feel crappy, but if it works, it's still fun. Ravnica was notably one of the funnest sets ever to play with and it was far from the most overpowered set.

[death]

December 20.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

December?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Cards like Brainstorm put more emphasis on the fact that Legacy players like playing Legacy because they feel more empowered by their choices and a certain amount of consistency. Remember, Brainstorm finds cards like Ad Nauseum that makes people pissed off that they lost to an overpowered, storm easy-button rather than a complex battle of choices we know as Magic. Ultimately, Brainstorm is merely an excellent enabler, but its not the problem. I mean, IS there a problem? The metagame is relatively healthy. I find that when WotC tries to force change on Legacy it creates more problems. Mental Misstep is a perfect example. I'm sure they knew the implications that card would have on the Legacy metagame and yet... they were wrong because it got banned. Thats even worse than covering up the mistake of Ad Nauseum by banning Mystical Tutor.


One of the stupider things Adam Barnello has ever said was in his article where he said that Steve Sadin's Hulk-Flash list, with Bobs and Counterbalances, the one built by Moreno, was the best deck in the room. I mean besides the obvious confirmation bias (it won, therefore it must be best- even if some things, like Sylvan Safekeeper over Benevolent Bodyguard, absolutely made no sense), it was dumb because Hulk-Flash could be built so many different ways. I played a Rock-ish build of Hulk-Flash to 69th place aiming at all the Fish deck in the field. I played against and saw a lot of different versions of the same deck, from Hulk-Thresh to Hulk-Still to BUG Hulk and more straightup combo lists like I had first touted, the Force/Unmask based list I smashed Hanni Fish with when he was claiming the deck couldn't lose to Hulk-Flash.

I had a lot of fun at that tournament. There was a lot of room still to explore in that deck, and the Pacts hadn't even come out yet. The combo was so compact and so flexible that it could have been built a lot of other ways too.

But I never thought that they shouldn't ban one of the combo pieces. At the end of the day, that may look like a lot of diversity to the people playing variants of the same deck, and there may be a lot of legitimate skilltesting lines of play, but like this past Summer when Standard was Cawblade variant vs. Cawblade variant, to most people it rank of stagnation. Tweaks of one deck is not the same thing as having a diverse metagame.

Legacy isn't that bad, but there's been an increasing tendency over the years for Legacy decks to be three color palette swaps of each other, with the same few staples of each color substituting in and blue usually being the central color tying the other two together. And I don't see that tendency going down with Snapcaster and especially Delver. And the biggest suspect in this trend is the most ubiquitous and powerful card, which is far and away Brainstorm.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I wish they would get out of this "power creep" mode of theirs. I could care less if we had a pile of sets with underpowered cards like Homelands as long as it was fun as hell to draft, play sealed, and have in constructed. Who wouldn't like that? It would feel crappy, but if it works, it's still fun. Ravnica was notably one of the funnest sets ever to play with and it was far from the most overpowered set.

Agree with this quite a bit actually.

[Rizso]

IMO its pretty facisnating that every block sense shards have totally changed legacy as a format.

Shardsblock: Noble/KotR/Elspeth/progenitus takes new decks to new hights!
Zendicarblock: More Fetch, Spell Pierce, Stoneforge, Jace, emrakul etc
Scarsblock: New swords, Batterskull, Surgical Extraction, Mental Misstep, Dismember you name it. Loads more!
Innistradblock: even with just 1 set!!! there is 2 cards that is finding its way into decks in a card pool as old as magic itself!

[UnderwaterGuy]

IMO its pretty facisnating that every block sense shards have totally changed legacy as a format.

Shardsblock: Noble/KotR/Elspeth/progenitus takes new decks to new hights!
Zendicarblock: More Fetch, Spell Pierce, Stoneforge, Jace, emrakul etc
Scarsblock: New swords, Batterskull, Surgical Extraction, Mental Misstep, Dismember you name it. Loads more!
Innistradblock: even with just 1 set!!! there is 2 cards that is finding its way into decks in a card pool as old as magic itself!

Yes but that isn't necessarily a good thing. I think it's terrible.

The new cards are dramatically changing the format because they are so ludicrously better than older cards. Alara was the worst offender but it's frustrating that new cards are so much stronger.

A lot of people I know that played a long time ago get disheartened or don't want to play against even casual decks that use decent new cards just because a halfway decent modern deck will stomp a similarly designed old deck.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Blue definitely needs some de-powering; it's getting too good and it has too much of the color pie on account of Wizards making a lot of mistakes over time. They can't unprint cards, so the only recourse is to ban them. Brainstorm seems like a great candidate to ban, seeing as it gives Blue decks the exclusive ability to blunt the effects of variance in hands/draws and opponents using discard effects; powerful things that no other color has access to. Blue already has exclusive access to free countermagic, and can often do other color's jobs better than them, making it, like the pie, SOOOOOO GOOD. Something needs to go, and I personally don't want to see SI go to Tier 0 SSSSSSSS-Rank overnight (i.e. don't ax free counters) and banning Clique, Snappy, Delver, and a bunch of other's to balance out Blue's slice of the color-pie....just plain silly. so Brainstorm it is.

However...the effect that Brainstorm has should stay in Legacy. It's fun, iconic, and really a pillar of play. That's why, in M2013, Wizards should make a functional reprint...in Red. It still allows people to play with a card they enjoy, just not as easily with all the other best things in the format, and gives the fun of Brainstorm to non-Blue players as well. Win win.

[sligh16]

Blue definitely needs some de-powering; it's getting too good and it has too much of the color pie on account of Wizards making a lot of mistakes over time. They can't unprint cards, so the only recourse is to ban them. Brainstorm seems like a great candidate to ban, seeing as it gives Blue decks the exclusive ability to blunt the effects of variance in hands/draws and opponents using discard effects; powerful things that no other color has access to. Blue already has exclusive access to free countermagic, and can often do other color's jobs better than them, making it, like the pie, SOOOOOO GOOD. Something needs to go, and I personally don't want to see SI go to Tier 0 SSSSSSSS-Rank overnight (i.e. don't ax free counters) and banning Clique, Snappy, Delver, and a bunch of other's to balance out Blue's slice of the color-pie....just plain silly. so Brainstorm it is.

However...the effect that Brainstorm has should stay in Legacy. It's fun, iconic, and really a pillar of play. That's why, in M2013, Wizards should make a functional reprint...in Red. It still allows people to play with a card they enjoy, just not as easily with all the other best things in the format, and gives the fun of Brainstorm to non-Blue players as well. Win win.

Wizards already did that. They reprinted Brainstorm in a stick, It's called Jace TMS. It's still really good, but not as warping as Brainstorm.

[troopatroop]

losing brainstorm wouldn't negatively affect blue-combo decks like Reanimator/NO RUG/.

Oh Rly?! If Brainstorm is gone NoRuG is stuck with Prog. You'll need a discard affect if you draw a Fatty. It's a blow to those decks, for sure.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Oh Rly?! If Brainstorm is gone NoRuG is stuck with Prog. You'll need a discard affect if you draw a Fatty. It's a blow to those decks, for sure.

The obvious solution, of course, is to run another cantrip instead of Brainstorm (Ponder or Serum Visions, depending on what you're already running), and then either just rely on Clique or add a slot for either a second Progenitus or another large green creature. Or you can retool and go for Intuition and Gigapede. Or whatever. It would be rough, but still perfectly manageable.

[Humphrey]

Guys, I made the solution

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/7568/9d391ba49ce3461aa278de9.png

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Guys


It's funny because every retard and their mother that's too lazy to form a coherent argument will just accuse anyone who even broaches the topic of whether something is too powerful of "whining."

[xfxf]

Let them cry. It makes me chuckle.

I think we can only chuckle until December 20th. I'm fairly sure that whiners will have their way again.

It makes no sense to me though. Banning Brainstorm would be like banning basic lands in my opinion. It's just a cantrip. It's the best out there but it's plain and simple. This is the game, I mean it's just basic functionality. With the same logic I can whine about Lightning Bolt being broken for dealing 3 damage with 1cc or Duress or even the vanilla Counterspell for not letting your opponent play. Dual lands are also quite unfair because they can produce two colors without any drawback. Mother of runes is broken because it makes all your creatures removal-proof. Birds of Paradise is broken because it can both carry equipment and is a City of Brass without drawbacks. Don't get me started on Tarmogoyf, FoW, Snapcaster or the likes... Hurloon Minotaur seems fair on the other hand. I'm glad I can still play with my old cards in an eternal format.

I'm trying to find words to describe how proposterous that sounds to me but I'm failing. So I'll just stop here. Brainstorm will get banned anyways.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think we can only chuckle until December 20th. I'm fairly sure that whiners will have their way again.

It makes no sense to me though. Banning Brainstorm would be like banning basic lands in my opinion. It's just a cantrip. It's the best out there but it's plain and simple. This is the game, I mean it's just basic functionality. With the same logic I can whine about Lightning Bolt being broken for dealing 3 damage with 1cc or Duress or even the vanilla Counterspell for not letting your opponent play. Dual lands are also quite unfair because they can produce two colors without any drawback. Mother of runes is broken because it makes all your creatures removal-proof. Birds of Paradise is broken because it can both carry equipment and is a City of Brass without drawbacks. Don't get me started on Tarmogoyf, FoW, Snapcaster or the likes... Hurloon Minotaur seems fair on the other hand. I'm glad I can still play with my old cards in an eternal format.

I'm trying to find words to describe how proposterous that sounds to me but I'm failing. So I'll just stop here. Brainstorm will get banned anyways.

The arguments have less to do with what sounds abstractly preposterous to you, and more to do with the actual dominance of tournaments. So without Duress dominating top 8s, it's going to be hard to take this line of thinking seriously.

[DragoFireheart]

Oh Rly?! If Brainstorm is gone NoRuG is stuck with Prog. You'll need a discard affect if you draw a Fatty. It's a blow to those decks, for sure.

Vendilion Clique

@ the "Whiners":

Last time I checked, Brainstorm doesn't let you tutor through your entire deck like Survival of the Fittest or Mystical Tutor. It also doesn't utterly cripple storm combo decks and weaken aggro decks for 2 life like Mental Misstep.

You won't weaken blue in the way you want. You'll STILL see people playing blue because they don't want to LOSE to some combo deck that kills you on turn 1 or drops a giant monster by turn 3 or 4. People will replace Brainstorm with Ponder, and then what? Ban Ponder? Force of Will? What next? Should we ban Force of Will because it's dominating the top 8? (oh please god someone say yes)

Go on. Ban Brainstorm. Set the same precedent that was set for Modern. Just stop pretending you have yet to make a valid argument because you haven't.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

He admitted I was right. I think a lot of people just don't play combo, and thus don't understand the dynamics of why something like Brainstorm is sauce in the archetype.



I've already explained why (B) is bullshit - Brainstorm is stronger in combo than it is in blue control. As for (A), at this point I'm not even sure combo is the reason. I think people either just like playing blue, or play it because it's infinitely better than everything else. I know people in my meta all play blue even when I'm the only combo player (or when there's no combo). And that's either because they like it, or because they think (correctly) that it's better than everything else. I don't play it because I don't enjoy it - although I do use plenty of blue cards in combo decks.


I think the reason people play blue is pretty clear. It has nothing to do with the existence of combo and everything to do with the fact that blue is the color of consistency. In a game like Magic where randomness is a large component, having the ability to get what you need when you need is game-winning. As blue has the most powerful draw and hand-shaping cards, blue decks are more consistent than other decks and therefore are stronger on average.

That's why banning Brainstorm is the correct move if Wizards wants to weaken blue. Consistency is power in Magic, and no other card in Legacy increases a deck's consistency more than Brainstorm. Now, the question is of course, does Brainstorm warrant a ban? If blue continues to dominate, then the answer is clearly yes.

[Rizso]

Even with a Brainstorm ban I doubt the number of blue decks will go down in numbers. Only thing that would lower the blue decks would ban all the blue duals!

[DragoFireheart]

I think the reason people play blue is pretty clear. It has nothing to do with the existence of combo and everything to do with the fact that blue is the color of consistency.

Zoo is more consistent than most blue decks. Burn/removal, lands, dudes. Hell, BURN is more consistent than any deck. Burn and lands. Clearly consistency alone isn't enough.

Combo is the clear reason people play blue. They get some consistency from Brainstorm and Force of Will to stop broken combos so they can actually play beyond turns 1, 2, and 3.

[UnderwaterGuy]

It has nothing to do with the existence of combo

That just isn't true. Decks without counters get fucked by combo decks and if we didn't have strong blue decks we'd only have combo decks and shitty pure-combo-hate decks.

[Pippin]

This is starting to feel like a strange deja vu. Like we are running in circles.
Each, literally each time B&R list update comes around we have another thread of something that needs to be banned. People already forgot Show and Tell cryings, or even Natural Order? That happened only month ago...

Give it a rest. We are playing eternal format to play powerfull cards. Brainstorm is the pillar of legacy, yes IT IS A SACRED COW. It's what makes people want to play legacy.

[sligh16]

Give it a rest. We are playing eternal format to play powerfull cards. Brainstorm is the pillar of legacy, yes IT IS A SACRED COW. It's what makes some people want to play legacy.

There. fixed.

[KobeBryan]

This is starting to feel like a strange deja vu. Like we are running in circles.
Each, literally each time B&R list update comes around we have another thread of something that needs to be banned. People already forgot Show and Tell cryings, or even Natural Order? This happened only month ago...

Give it a rest. We are playing eternal format to play powerfull cards. Brainstorm is the pillar of legacy, yes IT IS A SACRED COW. It's what makes people want to play legacy.

Having a nostalgia reason is not a good reason to keep an overpowered card in the format.

[damionblackgear]

Starting to think I need an Upvote in this forum.

[catmint]

Give it a rest. We are playing eternal format to play powerfull cards. Brainstorm is the pillar of legacy, yes IT IS A SACRED COW. It's what makes mostpeople want to play legacy.

Fixed again...check the vote

[ubernostrum]

Just because I've seen a few posts on the theme of "somebody in an SCG top 8 match made a stupid play mistake LOL", I want to chime in with a quick bit of perspective before going back to the actual topic :)

I like Legacy. A lot. I play Legacy, and I judge Legacy. I hit up a lot of SCG events, and I'd be willing to bet that I'm the only person in this thread who's both A) won money at an SCG Legacy open and B) been the Head Judge of one (on a different weekend, obv. -- and no, I don't work for them, I was just the local L2 who got asked to do it that weekend). So I've seen those events from a couple different but useful perspectives: I've been one of the guys trying to grind into the money late in the day, and I've been the guy watching those guys from a few feet away.

And one thing I can tell you, from that experience, is that an SCG event is a loooooong weekend. Those guys in the top 8? It's 10PM or so local time, and they've been playing competitive matches every waking hour since 10AM the previous day. This may well be their 20th match of the weekend. So of course there are going to be some silly errors; nobody, at least nobody who's not a robot, is perfectly fresh and on top of everything at that point.

In Nashville I played in the Legacy after working as a judge for Standard, came in 18th on horrible breakers, and you know what? I nearly punted my final match. Not because I was a bad player, but because I was absolutely exhausted. I made a stupid mistake, failed to see a pretty obvious game-winning play, and a match that should have been 2-0 suddenly was going to three games. If that had been on camera, I'm sure someone in a forum would've been blasting me as an idiot. But the folks watching at home probably would've had a good night's sleep and an easy relaxing weekend to keep their minds alert; I sure hadn't.

So don't be too hard on the folks you see on camera in those Legacy opens; they've had a much longer and much more tiring weekend than you have, and if you were in their shoes you wouldn't be playing perfectly either :)

As for Brainstorm... meh. Blue is very, very good in Legacy, but it has to be to keep the ban list as small as it is, and anyone who knows the format knows that. People who don't know the format can, happily, learn (and learn how to beat blue -- it ain't that hard).

So -- and of course, I know as little about upcoming B&R changes as the next guy, since I don't work for WotC, and as a result this is purely my personal opinion as someone who knows and likes Legacy -- I wouldn't put too much stock in some people on Twitter. Yeah, #banjace was a thing, but to be perfectly honest Jace was too much for poor Standard, so I don't think this should be cause for worrying about the future of Brainstorm. And anyway, right now the format's still adjusting (slowly, as Legacy always does) to the departure of Misstep and the printing of Snapcaster; it's way too early for any kind of serious speculation on whether bans are needed.

[Namida]

So -- and of course, I know as little about upcoming B&R changes as the next guy, since I don't work for WotC, and as a result this is purely my personal opinion as someone who knows and likes Legacy -- I wouldn't put too much stock in some people on Twitter. Yeah, #banjace was a thing, but to be perfectly honest Jace was too much for poor Standard, so I don't think this should be cause for worrying about the future of Brainstorm. And anyway, right now the format's still adjusting (slowly, as Legacy always does) to the departure of Misstep and the printing of Snapcaster; it's way too early for any kind of serious speculation on whether bans are needed.

I couldn't say up or down whether or not I think Brainstorm needs to be banned. However, I'd have to say that every time these banning debates occur, one of the arguments is that we haven't given the format enough time to adjust. I used to think that this made sense. A few weeks ago, a friend of mine asked me about Legacy, and made a comment about how he didn't think that sets affect the format too much. At that point, it came to my attention that Legacy actually is heavily effected every time a new set comes out. At least, since I've been playing Magic (since Ravnica), I can't think of many sets that have come out that didn't have a significant impact on Legacy.

So, I guess I'm asking why we should be expecting the format to ever adjust to anything when there are cards like Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Mental Misstep, Dismember, Batterskull, Green Sun's Zenith, Necrotic Ooze, Emrakul, Vengevine, Jace, Iona, Spell Pierce, Knight of the Reliquary, Progenitus, Ad Nauseam, and other format changing cards being printed every three months or so. Looking back at the last few sets (and I could go on,) it seems like only Alara Reborn and the Shadowmoor Block didn't bring cards that have seen heavy play in decks that people would consider High Tier (Edit: Painter's Servant, Qasali Pridemage, actually--it just took a second). And that's not including when they decide to ban or unban cards to mix up the format.

[Pippin]

I'll leave these here (last 3 months)

Lets ban Show and tell thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21580-Let-s-Bitch-About-Show-and-Tell)
Lets ban Fetchlands thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21934-Let-s-Ban-Fetchlands)
Lets ban Natural Order thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21881-Standard-top-16-more-diverse-than-legacy...)

before that it was Mental Misstep, Force of Will, Vial, Lackey... you get the point.

When looking at this thread it looks like the cry for bannings norm is each one/two months. By my subpar prediction skills I see Dr. Jones making thread about banning Force of Will somewhere in next 3 months.

[Fl0do]

My prediction for next months card to ban: Green Sun's Zenith.

[Gheizen64]

I'll leave these here (last 3 months)

Lets ban Show and tell thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21580-Let-s-Bitch-About-Show-and-Tell)
Lets ban Fetchlands thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21934-Let-s-Ban-Fetchlands)
Lets ban Natural Order thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21881-Standard-top-16-more-diverse-than-legacy...)

before that it was Mental Misstep, Force of Will, Vial, Lackey... you get the point.

When looking at this thread it looks like the cry for bannings norm is each one/two months. By my subpar prediction skills I see Dr. Jones making thread about banning Force of Will somewhere in next 3 months.

You may care to notice that neither me not iba nor a lot of others that are for a possible ban of BS were for the ban of NO, SnT and MM (or fetchlands for that matter lol). In fact, i was completely against the ban of MM, but it got banned, while i reckon a lot of sourcers were for it. I'm also always been consistently against any banning of Lackey, FoW and Vial, for reasons i've stated times and times again. You may also not care, but i am one of the few advocate for a more aggressive unban policy, see my posts on the threads of the "B&R" challenge where we debated that Vise was completely safe to unban alongside Tax, Twist and other cards.

But i guess it's easier to dismiss everything as "whining" whereas you and most other people that accuse others of whining aren't offering any real argument for your position while i and other do and all i'm getting as answers are is "BS is needed because it's skill intensive" (proven false) "BS is needed because it save us from combo winter" (proven false ) or "BS is good for nostalgia reasons" (this isn't even an argument".
So yes, categorize me in the "whiner category", point me with your finger while you laugh with your friends, because in my eyes the only whiners here are all the idiots that post one liners of "OMG idiot you can't ban BS" and "this is legacy, go play modern if you don't want to play with good cards".

/end rant

[ubernostrum]

So, I guess I'm asking why we should be expecting the format to ever adjust to anything when there are cards like Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Mental Misstep, Dismember, Batterskull, Green Sun's Zenith, Necrotic Ooze, Emrakul, Vengevine, Jace, Iona, Spell Pierce, Knight of the Reliquary, Progenitus, Ad Nauseam, and other format changing cards being printed every three months or so.

Well, my point about the metagame being "slow" to adjust mainly boils down to a couple of things. One is that Legacy is not Standard; if you follow the SCG series, you can predict week-by-week what people will be playing in Standard, because this week's field will be tuned to tear apart last week's top 8. In Legacy, though, players are less quick to change what they're doing. Partly this is because it's much harder for the average player to significantly alter a Legacy deck, and in some cases even just a Legacy sideboard, that quickly (cards are neither as cheap nor as plentiful). Partly it's because Legacy has historically been diverse enough that I think people wait a bit longer to see if a new innovation will take root, or if it was just a one-shot success.

I think we can see that in the results of the last couple SCG Legacy events; everybody knew, as soon as it was spoiled, that Snapcaster was going to be good. Heck, people were debating whether it was the best two-drop ever printed, and the only question was which deck would do the best job of abusing it. After a few events' worth of results, we had a good idea about that and people started adjusting for it (witness the sudden plethora of Surgical Extractions, for example).

What we're seeing now is the reaction to Delver; there was plenty of speculation that the card would be good, of course, but it's taken a while for it to sink in just how good Delver is in tempo/thresh decks. The GP weekend was kind of a coming-out party, and then the next two SCG events proved it wasn't a fluke. So now people are taking it seriously, and I expect that by SCG St. Louis, or Charlotte the week after, we'll be seeing the adjustments. FWIW I wouldn't be too surprised to see as many decks packing Engineered Explosives in those events as have been packing Extraction the last couple of weeks.

The other thing is that I think we are finally seeing a genuine transformation of the way competitive Legacy works. Specifically, it's becoming a much less risk-averse format.

For years, serious Legacy events with significant prizes or prestige on the line were rare enough that -- with the format being as diverse as it is -- pinning your hopes on new technology was a bad idea. Sure, it might pan out, but just as likely it could fail miserably, and when are you going to get another chance? Much better to stick to what's known and battle-tested, and just make small refinements here and there. But now... there's thousands of dollars being handed out nearly every week. So you try something a little riskier. If it doesn't work out, oh well, there's always next weekend.

In other words, I don't think WotC's suddenly printing more Legacy-playable cards than before; I think players are more incentivized to find new Legacy-playable cards, because the risk of it blowing up in your face is much reduced, at least in the US (Europe's metagame, notably, still seems to evolve much more slowly, which may offer some support for this point). That's a huge change to the way Legacy is played, and I don't think anybody has managed to adjust to that one yet :)

[menace13]

Just ban all the blue duals and everyone will be happy:/

[Tao]

I'll leave these here (last 3 months)

Lets ban Show and tell thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21580-Let-s-Bitch-About-Show-and-Tell)
Lets ban Fetchlands thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21934-Let-s-Ban-Fetchlands)
Lets ban Natural Order thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21881-Standard-top-16-more-diverse-than-legacy...)

before that it was Mental Misstep, Force of Will, Vial, Lackey... you get the point.

When looking at this thread it looks like the cry for bannings norm is each one/two months. By my subpar prediction skills I see Dr. Jones making thread about banning Force of Will somewhere in next 3 months.

It says nothing that Jones acutally wants to ban Force of Will. If I find someone who wants to unban Ancestral Recall and Black Lotus would that mean anything? No. So stop using him as an example.

Banning Fetchlands was a one page thread and more of a thought experiment and a reminder of how good the lands of the format are than a discussion about actually banning them. Natural Order and Show and Tell both lead to unexciting games. That is why more people want to have these cards banned than popular cards like Brainstorm, even though they don't deserve it as much. Same thing with Lackey except that Goblins actually were close to being dominant enough to justify a ban for a while (until the power creep ate Goblins). And Mental Misstep? I am one of the few who really like the impact the card had so I also like your point but still I can see why it got banned. So really, you name that card as an argument against bans?

[SpikeyMikey]

It says nothing that Jones acutally wants to ban Force of Will. If I find someone who wants to unban Ancestral Recall and Black Lotus would that mean anything? No. So stop using him as an example.

Banning Fetchlands was a one page thread and more of a thought experiment and a reminder of how good the lands of the format are than a discussion about actually banning them. Natural Order and Show and Tell both lead to unexciting games. That is why more people want to have these cards banned than popular cards like Brainstorm, even though they don't deserve it as much. Same thing with Lackey except that Goblins actually were close to being dominant enough to justify a ban for a while (until the power creep ate Goblins). And Mental Misstep? I am one of the few who really like the impact the card had so I also like your point but still I can see why it got banned. So really, you name that card as an argument against bans?

All I can say is that I'm sure Tom LaPille would be behind banning Brainstorm. After all, it's not very useful in Zoo.

[DragoFireheart]

All I can say is that I'm sure Tom LaPille would be behind banning Brainstorm. After all, it's not very useful in Zoo.

Great Sable Stag isn't good against brainstorm either so that's further reason to ban it. /sarcasm

[Einherjer]

I wrote to Wotc that Id like to see brainstorm NOT banned, thats what they responded:

"Hello *********,

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast! We appreciate your suggestion and understanding how you feel about the card Brainstorm. We love receiving feedback, ideas, and suggestions from our customers. I assure you that the Customer Service Department meets with teams around the company on a regular basis, and we make it a priority that your voice is heard. While I cannot guarantee a direct response, I can promise that I will personally pass your concern along to the right people.

Thank you for voicing your opinion, as it is one way we know how our customers feel.

Thanks for playing Legacy and good luck in all your gaming!"

[nedleeds]

Innistradblock: even with just 1 set!!! there is 2 blue creature (?!?!?!)cards that is finding its way into decks in a card pool as old as magic itself!

I think the bold is what got the pot all stirred up.

If Snapcaster Mage was RR to cast and acted like a little Recoup this discussion wouldn't be half as heated.

[Mr. Safety]

All I can say is that I'm sure Tom LaPille would be behind banning Brainstorm. After all, it's not very useful in Zoo.

Maybe I'm retarded, but I thought Brainstorm was the reason to be playing Blue Zoo (along with tag-along Force of Will and other various blue control tactics)? Brainstorm makes that deck tick, does it not?

Beware: Tom Lapille's head may explode when he finds out zoo is using blue control...:eek:

[Admiral_Arzar]

I think the bold is what got the pot all stirred up.

If Snapcaster Mage was RR to cast and acted like a little Recoup this discussion wouldn't be half as heated.

We wouldn't be having this discussing at all in that case. Snapcaster would be played in Burn and that would be that.

[Mr. Safety]

We wouldn't be having this discussing at all in that case. Snapcaster would be played in Burn and that would be that.

News at 11, burn decks now splashing blue for Snapcaster Mage and Brainstorm...

:tongue:

[Admiral_Arzar]

News at 11, burn decks now splashing blue for Snapcaster Mage and Brainstorm...

:tongue:

Bro, it's too early in the morning for this kind of nonsense. As you were...