Deck: Horr-Orb-le Nought (Just say Horriblenought U/B)

[Inf3rnalOn3]

Horr-Orb-le Nought
Created by: Mark Wood

This deck was formed around the idea of Torpor Orb being used as a cornerstone of a deck. It has developed since its original inception, and recently placed in the Top 8 at an IQ. The deck seems to be very robust, standing up to a number of commonly seen decks: Belcher, U/W Stoneblade (or any Stoneblade for that matter), and Zoo. I'm having trouble with the deck pulling consistently, and I'm a little worried about the light counter aspect to it.

Please don't rip the deck too hard for being "rogue" or "silly", I really intend to make this a Top 8 viable tourney deck, if possible. Following is a deck list with notes to indicate why cards are included, and thoughts for options. I welcome all constructive criticism. :smile:

Lands: (20)

2x Island
2x Marsh Flats
1x Verdant Catacomb
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Underground Sea
4x Watery Grave
3x Wasteland

Creatures: (13)

3x Spellskite
3x Hunted Horror
3x Dark Confidant
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought

Spells: (27)

3x Torpor Orb
4x Stifle
2x Trickbind
3x Preordain
4x Brainstorm
2x Lim-Dul's Vault
3x Spell Snare
4x Force of Will
2x Echoing Truth

Sideboard: (15)

3x Engineered Plague
3x Wipe Away
2x Pithing Needle
2x Perish
3x Thoughtseize
2x Surgical Extraction


Notes and concerns: Hunted Horror is the toughest creature to cast because of BB. However, It's not so much of a problem, I'd consider cutting him. I'm thinking Torpor Orb should be a 4 of card. Spellskite is always the first card sideboarded out, thinking of trading it out for more counterspells (probably Daze). Asking for opinions on Preordain vs Ponder in the deck. Considering all input!

Basic strategy: Opening hand should produce at least 1 big creature (Nought or Horror), and a way to get it into play without playing its drawback. Torpor Orb is best, but a Stifle or Trickbind will work. In a worst case scenario, you can cast Hunted Horrors, and let your opponent get the tokens. I have use Echoing Truth on these tokens before, but it's definitely not the preferred way. One counterspell back goes a long way to ensuring the creature makes it over to visit. Protection from black isn't too much of a problem, because of trample.

Matchup against Belcher: Good to Great. Stifle makes Belcher sad. Empty the Warrens doesn't have tokens after an Echoing Truth. Just seems good.

Matchup against Stoneblade: Good. Torpor Orb down makes Stone Forge's search ability null. Stifle can be used to stop the "cheat a sword" ability for a turn. My creatures are bigger. Removal can be a problem...they have more than I have creatures, so hopefully some counterspells show up :)

Matchup against Zoo: Good. My creatures are bigger. It's a race. Pridemage can be a pain, but it can be Stifled, or redirected at Spellskite.

Matchup against Merfolk: Not great. Islandwalk is a problem. With Aether Vial out, they are usually quicker, and they play counterspells as well. Need a great draw to win, but it can be done.

Matchup against Show and Tell: Great. Counter is good in game 1, and Dreadnought is bigger than Progenitus

Matchup against RUG: Even. The version I ran up against ran about 4-8 more counterspells than I did, so it caused me problems, but my creatures are far better. After board, Krosan Grip is a problem, Surgical Extraction is my only answer.

That's all they playtesting I've been able to get in. I'm wanting to add more counterspells, maybe Daze. The trouble is finding room for it. Also considering the 4th Torpor Orb, but slots are tight. Again, thanks for looking, and I'm open to suggestion.

[Einherjer]

There is one thing I would suggest you, and its concerning your manabase. Id more structure it like that: 4 Wastes, 4 Underground, 8 Fetches, 5 Basics 2 Ancient Tombs(For explosive starts). I dont think this deck has such a brutal need of certain colors at a certain time, so Id think this is more like the way to go.

[Inf3rnalOn3]

Thanks for the input, I'll look at the manabase again. Any thoughts on a 4th orb, inclusion of any more counterspells, and the ponder vs preordain debate?

Thanks!

[Darkenslight]

Two suggestions:

1) Explain your reasoning separately from the decklist - no-one likes a wall of broken links :p

2) Have you considered Hunted Phantasm in the HH spot?

[Inf3rnalOn3]

Two suggestions:

1) Explain your reasoning separately from the decklist - no-one likes a wall of broken links :p

2) Have you considered Hunted Phantasm in the HH spot?

1) Done. This is my first deck posting, so learning as I go. Thanks for the suggestion, I have cleaned up the appearance, should be more friendly to look at now.

2) I did consider Hunted Phantasm, but it's power is very low, it doesn't trample, and costs 3 instead of 2. Bob makes that a concern, as well as I rely on being a speed deck.

Did you have any thoughts on any of the other items I was asking about? 4 Orbs, Daze for Spellskite, or Ponder vs Preordain?

Thanks!

[igri_is_a_bk]

This deck definitely needs 4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. Then you should add EE. It can be searched up with Tezz, dropped for 0 to beat for 5 or to blow up tokens created by Hunted Horror.

[Inf3rnalOn3]

This deck definitely needs 4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. Then you should add EE. It can be searched up with Tezz, dropped for 0 to beat for 5 or to blow up tokens created by Hunted Horror.

Interesting thought. I dislike the 4cc of Tezzeret, but I'm not against it completely. EE might be good in the aggro matchups, like Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk. Now here's the big question.....what the heck do I drop to add these cards??

Thanks!

[Inf3rnalOn3]

Going with the suggestion of possibly dropping Hunted Horror for Hunted Phantasm, that would greatly reduce my need for black mana in the deck. I could probably go with just the 4 Underground Seas, and add more basic Islands. Does this seem like a good trade off?

[Poron]

This archtype is the best deck of the next season imho. Even thought the most solid version will splash red for sure (Fling, Shrapnel Blast, Goblin Welder)

+ 3x Unearth (can always cycle it, if not needed)
+ 4x Daze

Also consider Duress/Cabal Therapy and Gitaxian Probe combination

and you're almost done with the list

[igri_is_a_bk]

What about borrowing fundamentals from Painter? Intuition with Welder would set the deck up to abuse Dreadnought, exclusively, while being more consistent than Horror or Phantasm. Something like

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Goblin Welder
3 Spellskite

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Opal
4 Torpor Orb

Looks like it'd be strong. Is it stronger than Painter though? I dunno.

[DragoFireheart]

Not of This World

[igri_is_a_bk]

I don't think so. Spellskite is better for four reasons. First, it is an artifact. Working with Welder and Intuition is key. Second, it's preemptive. It'll draw countermagic from our opponent's hand, but we don't care because of the first point. Third, it's reusable as many times a turn as we can survive. Fourth, and most importantly, Spellskite protects Welder while Not of this World does not.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't think so. Spellskite is better for four reasons. First, it is an artifact. Working with Welder and Intuition is key. Second, it's preemptive. It'll draw countermagic from our opponent's hand, but we don't care because of the first point. Third, it's reusable as many times a turn as we can survive. Fourth, and most importantly, Spellskite protects Welder while Not of this World does not.

Would it be worth considering in the sideboard?

[JustPAT4]

Did you have any thoughts on any of the other items I was asking about? 4 Orbs, Daze for Spellskite, or Ponder vs Preordain?


I think 4 orbs are a must (unless you splash white, which would give you access to an e-tutor package for any combo piece as well as access to swords).

I think Spellskite is a nice fit for this deck. At least in theory. My gut tells me not to cut it in the current meta, but I could be wrong.

As far as the supplementary cantrips go (Ponder vs. Preordain), if you are running either, it's Ponder. Because you're combo based, you want to be able to see as many cards as possible so you can reliably find your combo early. Ponder simply digs deeper. It's more valuable for you because certain cards are way more valuable than others in a deck like this.

[jandax]

If you're worried about BB, why not add a couple Urborgs? Two is a good number, I've been happy with it in my own U/B brew that needs solid black mana.

[Poron]

What about borrowing fundamentals from Painter? Intuition with Welder would set the deck up to abuse Dreadnought, exclusively, while being more consistent than Horror or Phantasm. Something like

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Goblin Welder
3 Spellskite

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Opal
4 Torpor Orb

Looks like it'd be strong. Is it stronger than Painter though? I dunno.

25 artifacts and no Shrapnel Blast??

Moreover, you play Intuition and Welder. Let's work on that

a wonderfull Intuition would be:

Unearth
Goblin Welder
Torpor Orb / Dreadnought

depending on what is the second piece you need

Also, Intution + Welder really opens to many secondary games/answears like:

1xSwiftfoot Boots
1xCrucible of Worlds
1x Inkwell Leviathan / Sundering Titan

they just fill 2-3 slots, no more.

[Suneloon]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [MR] Island (4)
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [R] Underground Sea
2 [R] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
4 [NPH] Spellskite

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NPH] Torpor Orb
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
3 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize


This is where I was at a month ago, when I was testing this deck.

Orb's ability to hate a lot of the good creatures in legacy right now, is what makes it playable.

Stiflenought has always been way fun!
Orb gives Stiflenought a new toy, but does not funamentally change the deck, imo.

[Poron]

how comes you don't like Unearth in these decks... any creature is <3cc, it can cycle.

boooh!!

[igri_is_a_bk]

The list I provided is essentially a direct port of Painter. I simply switched combo pieces, so it may not be optimal for Dreadnought yet. However, I do believe the core of deck is about as good as it gets.

To those suggesting Unearth, do you cut the sol lands and basics? I can't see how you'll consistently get three colors unless you do so. Also, why play Unearth when we already play Welder and Spellskite? Unearth doesn't bring back anything important that Welder wouldn't, besides the Welder itself; meaning, we'd want the fourth Spellskite first as it has the job of protecting Welder. Without having played the deck other than online, I can already tell the real problem card for this deck is StP. Unearth doesn't help there either.

I'm not saying Unearth is terrible though. It is really good in an Intuition pile, undeniably. That is pretty much the only reason to consider it, imo. I'm not sure the costs (mana base) don't outweigh the benefits (Intuition) here.

Shrapnel blast has good interactions, but what would you cut for it? Might it be better as a sideboard card or is Lightning Bolt better?

[Inf3rnalOn3]

I have been following all posts and suggestions. First of all, THANKS! It has given me new and interesting ideas. I'm going to tinker a bit, and re-list the deck here in a few days. I have done some tinkering already, but I have noticed a good inconsistency with the draws, and I'm still not happy with the deck. Counterbalance is a terrible matchup, with almost everything being 1-2cc. It is played locally, so I have to contend with that. I have Wipe Away in the sideboard, but that just slows everything down. I was going to up the critter count in the deck, as blockers early on are good. Delver of Secrets seemed to be a great choice, at 1 mana, and a beater. It would also takes some of the inevitable heat off of the Dreadnought. Thoughts?

[Suneloon]

What about borrowing fundamentals from Painter? Intuition with Welder would set the deck up to abuse Dreadnought, exclusively, while being more consistent than Horror or Phantasm. Something like

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Goblin Welder
3 Spellskite

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Opal
4 Torpor Orb

Looks like it'd be strong. Is it stronger than Painter though? I dunno.

I've been testing something like this, ever since you posted it. And I'm sold! Some incarnation of Ur is the way to go.

[Inf3rnalOn3]

Sorry I haven't posted an update to the deck. Every tourney I play in, something seems to go wrong forcing me to re-tinker with the deck. Hunted Horror gets stuck in my hand for no good reason (3 Wastelands in a row), Spellskite just dies, and I feel there needs to be a more aggro approach to the deck. I've gone so far as to try Hunted Phantasm, JUST to stay in color. He's slow (3 mana) and his power sucks. He IS unblockable, but it's not very intimidating. Delver of Secrets is good, but doesn't have the big punch, so I'm not sure it's staying in the deck either. A few people have suggested Trinket Mage to search for Dreadnought, but I really want a Torpor Orb out turn 2, which negates his usefulness. I lost a few games due to purely BAD draws. (13 of out 20 lands in 10 turns) Orbs and Stifles with no critters, and critters in hand with no Stifles or Orb. Lol, deck is severely hating me as an owner right now.

I will keep tweaking, and report on changes, as I am testing on MWS to get additional testing and play time. If anyone has any further suggestions, keep them coming. My matchups in the last tourney were as follows:

Matchup vs. Bant with Countertop = Good. I have as many counters, and my creatures showed up on a regular basis. He never saw a Counterbalance, which helped. My creatures are strictly better, so I won the war. Delver did a lot of damage here. (Won 2-1)

Matchup vs Affinity (Ravager) = Even, I need to get some kind of critter out by turn 3. If not, Affinity's too fast for my 1 critter to block all of theirs. I have enough counter to keep Cranial Plating from hitting, but just critter damage did me in. (One game I drew the 13 lands) :( (Lost 1-2)

Matchup vs Team America = Not sure. He got REALLY land screwed, so I never got to see what his deck was capable of. Game 2, he has NO board, as I Wastelanded his only land and Echoing Truthed his Delver. (Won 2-0)

Matchup vs White Control = Even. Again, my critters have to show up early, otherwise I get outnumbered, and not being able to search my library unless I pay 2, really hurts my speed. (Lost 1-2 But all games were close.)

[Darkenslight]

Here would be my approximate take on this:

Lands (23):
4 Island
3 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 USea

Dudes (14):
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hunted Horror
3 Spellskite
3 Delver of Secrets//Insectile Abomination

Spells(33):
4 Force of Will
4 BS
4 Impulse
4 Unearth
4 Daze
4 Duress
3 Go for the Throat
3 Engineered Explosives
1-4 Mox Opal
1-3 Basilisk Collar
Mox Diamond
{open slot} (probably something like Nihil Spellbomb

For some of the more unusual card choices:

Impulse: Yes, it has its weaknesses, but it has a lot of dig for your key cards

GftT: This is interchangable with Doom Blade, Dismember and other removal

Basilisk Collar: For added Damage-dealing capability from your main beaters.

Probable sideboard cards:

Shifting into an SnT Deck with the following Board:

4 Show and Tell
Emrakul
Progenitus
Blightsteel colossus
8 meta hate

[Inf3rnalOn3]

Here would be my approximate take on this:

Lands (23):
4 Island
3 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 USea

Dudes (14):
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hunted Horror
3 Spellskite
3 Delver of Secrets//Insectile Abomination

Spells(33):
4 Force of Will
4 BS
4 Impulse
4 Unearth
4 Daze
4 Duress
3 Go for the Throat
3 Engineered Explosives
1-4 Mox Opal
1-3 Basilisk Collar
Mox Diamond
{open slot} (probably something like Nihil Spellbomb

For some of the more unusual card choices:

Impulse: Yes, it has its weaknesses, but it has a lot of dig for your key cards

GftT: This is interchangable with Doom Blade, Dismember and other removal

Basilisk Collar: For added Damage-dealing capability from your main beaters.

Probable sideboard cards:

Shifting into an SnT Deck with the following Board:

4 Show and Tell
Emrakul
Progenitus
Blightsteel colossus
8 meta hate

No Stifle, BS came up as Bronze Bombshell, not sure what value this has. No Torpor Orb, How do you get these creatures into play without paying their drawbacks? I'm sorry if I missed something.

[Inf3rnalOn3]

No Stifle, BS came up as Bronze Bombshell, not sure what value this has. No Torpor Orb, How do you get these creatures into play without paying their drawbacks? I'm sorry if I missed something. Just got BS = Brainstorm, sorry it took me a sec. But still don't see a counter effect card to get Nought, or HH into play

[Jakobian]

Have you ever considered running Shred Memory, Muddle the Mixture, or Dimir Infiltrator? They all transmute for 2, which gets you torpor orb OR hunted horror if necessary. I've put together a list that I'm trying out, and it seems like it'd be good (just testing on magic workstation for now)

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins
6 Island
6 Swamp

4 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
4 Hunted Horror

4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Thoughtseize
2 Shred Memory
2 Counterspell
4 Torpor Orb
1 Trickbind
2 Stifle
4 Dark Ritual
3 Daze
4 Force of Will


I haven't worked out a sideboard yet, but it would probably be things that deal with enchantments/artifacts that hose your combo. Spellskite would probably make it in the board as well.

[Vacrix]

I've been thinking about trying to build something like this lately. Its probably fucking amazing in the current metagame. Torpor Orb by itself is just fantastic. SFM and Snapcasters are just useless 2/1 // 1/2 bodies, which essentially turns off a lot of decks that rely on Batterskull or equipment to secure a board position.

Also, the deck closes on the opponent quickly with a reasonable clock. Delver of Secrets is completely wrong for this deck IMO. It fits with a different kind of clock. This deck looks like it would work better by controlling the board, and then dropping a fat guy to seal the game. Torpor Orb helps to slow their board position so that you can get to this position in a reasonable amount of time.

I'm going to test some of your lists on Cockatrice this week and see what build I wind up with.

[Jabari]

Is this thread worth reviving in light of the new BB 4/3 undying demon that get's donated to an opponent when it comes back?

It can come down turn 2 without a torpor orb out providing a real clock instantly, plus with a few homeward path isn't even that dangerous for us.

[Pee-Dee-2]

I don't have any expirience with the Demon. he schould be nice, but at the moment I'm testing this version.

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins
4 Island
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
4 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
2 Shred Memory / Muddle the Mixture
4 Torpor Orb
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Dismember
1 Engineered Explosives

I think in this deck, you need something like Stifle/Wasteland to slow your opponent down until you Dreadnought will come.
After Boarding, the stifle is a good card against opponents who board Krosan Grips for the Torpor Orbs (sometimes, they like more to destroy the Orbs than the Noughts)
IMO you need removal, besause many Aggrodecks a to fast if you don't have the second turn Dreadnought.

One of the biggest problems is Maverick withe their QPM and Green Sun's Zenith. This causes aus to play Muddle the mixture although the Shred Memory is better in a Snapcaster Meta.
Muddle the Mixture is also better against StoP which could get us out of the day.

The biggest question is: Why playing 4 Torpor orbs over +1 Trickbind and +3 Ponder f.e.?

The answer is the meta with a huge number of Mystics and Snapcaster. We also have a better answer to Goblins with Torpor Orb.

Other Ideas are to playing without Stifles/Wastes and Memories / Mixtures and Inclued Counterbalance/Top. In this case, we have also to play 2 more 3cc Spells, f.e. Vendilion Clique main (even it is bad with the orb).
This version does a better job against Krosan Grip, which could ruin you day in response to a Dreadnought.

But I'm still testin' and this will be not the final version or what do you think?

[Djenin]

I always liked dreadnought decks, if i played it again today it might go a little something like this:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [DD2] Daze
2 [ARE] Fling
2 [VI] Vision Charm
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle

Instead of banking everything on a nought getting there, i diversified a bit and added a little reach in case you run short on gas. Just my thoughts on this kind of deck. :)

[nedleeds]

Is this thread worth reviving in light of the new BB 4/3 undying demon that get's donated to an opponent when it comes back?

It can come down turn 2 without a torpor orb out providing a real clock instantly, plus with a few homeward path isn't even that dangerous for us.

Hunter Horror seems better. Hunted Horror isn't great. EE at least handles the Centaurs in addition to Orb or Mask or Sundial.

[Jabari]

Hunter Horror seems better. Hunted Horror isn't great. EE at least handles the Centaurs in addition to Orb or Mask or Sundial.

The two aren't mutually exclusive, but I think if I were to choose between the two I may be more inclined to choose the Demon.

My reasoning, you can land it t2 without an orb and not be totally blown out by removal. It is susceptible to bolt, but RUG is currently on the decline from what I've been seeing making Swords and Path the go to removal right now. If Horror get's PTE or STP they come out way ahead with 6 power on board to you're nothing, if you lose the demon to exile though no harm no foul. Plus you can drop orb later so the undying won't trigger.