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lordofthepit
11-08-2011, 04:47 AM
I wanted to make sure I understood the following scenarios correctly:

1) Golgari Grave-Troll and 7 other creatures are in the graveyard. Dread Return is hardcast, targeting Golgari Grave-Troll. When Dread Return resolves, GGT is put into play with 8 +1/+1 counters on it, since the last thing it "saw" as it came into play included itself in the graveyard.
2) Golgari Grave-Troll and 7 other creatures are in the graveyard. Dread Return is played via its flashback cost, and three non-token creatures are sacrificed to play. When Dread Return resolves, GGT is put into play with 11 +1/+1 counters on it, since the three non-token creatures are put into the graveyard as part of the cost of playing Dread Return; upon subsequent resolution of DR, GGT sees the 7 other creatures, itself, and the three new creatures as it is being put into play.
3) Cabal Ritual and six other spells are in the graveyard. Snapcaster Mage resolves, with the trigger giving CR flashback. CR is cast; when it resolves, does BBB or BBBBB get added? Initially, I assumed it would have Threshold because of the GGT case, but in cases #1 and #2, GGT wasn't the card being cast (and thus moved from the graveyard to the stack). In this case, I assume CR is moved from the graveyard to the stack, so that when CR resolves, it sees only 6 cards in graveyard?
4) This is probably identical to case #3, but Ghastly Demise and six other spells are in the graveyard. Ghastly Demise gains flashback and is played for its flashback cost; can it kill a 6/7 Tarmogoyf?

DerFern
11-08-2011, 10:26 AM
I wanted to make sure I understood the following scenarios correctly:

1) Golgari Grave-Troll and 7 other creatures are in the graveyard. Dread Return is hardcast, targeting Golgari Grave-Troll. When Dread Return resolves, GGT is put into play with 8 +1/+1 counters on it, since the last thing it "saw" as it came into play included itself in the graveyard.
2) Golgari Grave-Troll and 7 other creatures are in the graveyard. Dread Return is played via its flashback cost, and three non-token creatures are sacrificed to play. When Dread Return resolves, GGT is put into play with 11 +1/+1 counters on it, since the three non-token creatures are put into the graveyard as part of the cost of playing Dread Return; upon subsequent resolution of DR, GGT sees the 7 other creatures, itself, and the three new creatures as it is being put into play.
3) Cabal Ritual and six other spells are in the graveyard. Snapcaster Mage resolves, with the trigger giving CR flashback. CR is cast; when it resolves, does BBB or BBBBB get added? Initially, I assumed it would have Threshold because of the GGT case, but in cases #1 and #2, GGT wasn't the card being cast (and thus moved from the graveyard to the stack). In this case, I assume CR is moved from the graveyard to the stack, so that when CR resolves, it sees only 6 cards in graveyard?
4) This is probably identical to case #3, but Ghastly Demise and six other spells are in the graveyard. Ghastly Demise gains flashback and is played for its flashback cost; can it kill a 6/7 Tarmogoyf?

everything you wrote is correct, even though 1) is not about "seeing" anything, so technically it is a little different. Since GGT "comes into play with" those counters, the number of creatures in your graveyard needs to be determined before it actually IS in play. At this time, GGT is in your graveyard, too. Just a technical difference, nothing fancy about it...

regarding 4): your Ghastly Demise can NOT kill the Goyf since it is countered upon resolution for having an illegal target...

Esper3k
11-08-2011, 10:33 AM
regarding 4): your Ghastly Demise can NOT kill the Goyf since it is countered upon resolution for having an illegal target...

The Oracle text of Ghastly Demise now says "Destroy target nonblack creature if its toughness is less than or equal to the number of cards in your graveyard.", so Ghastly Demise actually isn't countered. It just resolves and doesn't destroy the Goyf.

MSC
11-08-2011, 12:48 PM
I'm sure, 3) and 4) don't work. The cards you flashback will be put on the stack, when you cast them and therefor not in your graveyard. The "counting" then happens on resolution, so in both cases you don't get the effect you wanted...

luma
11-09-2011, 03:04 AM
The Oracle text of Ghastly Demise now says "Destroy target nonblack creature if its toughness is less than or equal to the number of cards in your graveyard.", so Ghastly Demise actually isn't countered. It just resolves and doesn't destroy the Goyf.

Yep, and if it had a targeting restriction ("destroy target creature with toughness..."), you couldn't even cast it because first you move the card from the graveyard to the stack, then choose targets (and now there are only six cards left in your graveyard).