Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

[CorpT]

If LED is such a overpowered card, why wouldn't a deck of 60 LED be the best deck ever?

Just a tip: Drago will continue to make these non-nonsensical "arguments" where he proposes ridiculous straw man questions trying to trick you into some stupid answer until you give up and ignore him, at which time he will claim victory. You can save yourself a lot of hassle by ignoring him now.

[UnderwaterGuy]

for fuck's sake, give up on talking sense into the radicals in this argument. I know it's equally worthless for me to make this post but c'mon. Drago has been in here for over a month doing this. It's a waste of time, some people irrationally hate blue and interaction, some people only are willing to play magic if they can play specific cards.

We'll know in 26 hours.

[DragoFireheart]

In other news, Modern continues to be a joke format.

lmao at the banning of the cat.


Why would you ever play a mono-colored deck in a format with fetches and duals?

Exactly!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Why would you ever play a mono-colored deck in a format with fetches and duals?

Ahem. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=121204)

[DragoFireheart]

Ahem. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=121204)

Can't tell if you are being serious or not. Has it even seen play in a top-8 in the last couple years or so? Top-16? At all?

[Gui]

Why would you ever play a mono-colored deck in a format with fetches and duals?

I keep saying this, but this is wizards fault. If more cards like Gatekeeper of Malakir or Phyrexian Obliterator were printed, meaning, cards of a single color that have good abilities and exhaustive cost were printed, then we'd have more reason. But no, they print cards in multicolor that are better than their monocolor brethren, like Qasali Pridemage vs. Viridian Zealot, when pridemage is actually easier to cast and is miles better.
I doubt Jace would be as much played if he costed :1::u::u::u:... But in decks that could cast him, he wouldn't be less strong. Then we'd have a reason to at least play a deck with less colors.

[DragoFireheart]

I keep saying this, but this is wizards fault. If more cards like Gatekeeper of Malakir or Phyrexian Obliterator were printed, meaning, cards of a single color that have good abilities and exhaustive cost were printed, then we'd have more reason. But no, they print cards in multicolor that are better than their monocolor brethren, like Qasali Pridemage vs. Viridian Zealot, when pridemage is actually easier to cast and is miles better.
I doubt Jace would be as much played if he costed :1::u::u::u:... But in decks that could cast him, he wouldn't be less strong. Then we'd have a reason to at least play a deck with less colors.

For the longest time we had Goblins that could go mono-red and Merfolk, but the former is not viable at all in the meta and the latter is slowly becoming less viable, what with Blade Control decks having good ways to fighting Merfolk and Maverick being able to easily crush fish. It is slowly getting to the point where trying to make a mono-colored deck in Legacy puts you at an disadvantage over multi-colored decks. Not by a small amount either: you are put at a seriously huge disadvantage by going one color.

There truly is no reason to go mono-colored at this point. Merfolk is the last bastion of worthwhile mono-colored decks.

[TheMightyQuinn]

There truly is no reason to go mono-colored at this point. Merfolk is the last bastion of worthwhile mono-colored decks.

Spiral Tide. Not a DtB to be sure, but playable nonetheless. Being immune to Wasteland is important to any High Tide deck.

[troopatroop]

Can't tell if you are being serious or not. Has it even seen play in a top-8 in the last couple years or so? Top-16? At all?


Drago will continue to make these non-nonsensical "arguments" where he proposes ridiculous straw man questions trying to trick you into some stupid answer until you give up and ignore him.

When someone calls you out for using straw men, you might not want to prove them right shortly after. Justathought

[Fossil4182]

For the longest time we had Goblins that could go mono-red and Merfolk, but the former is not viable at all in the meta and the latter is slowly becoming less viable, what with Blade Control decks having good ways to fighting Merfolk and Maverick being able to easily crush fish. It is slowly getting to the point where trying to make a mono-colored deck in Legacy puts you at an disadvantage over multi-colored decks. Not by a small amount either: you are put at a seriously huge disadvantage by going one color.

There truly is no reason to go mono-colored at this point. Merfolk is the last bastion of worthwhile mono-colored decks.

The mono red burn decks that have placed recently would disagree. On a more macro level and assuming your argument, why is the disappearance of mono color decks a bad thing?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Can't tell if you are being serious or not. Has it even seen play in a top-8 in the last couple years or so? Top-16? At all?

A top 8? Yes.

I'm not being not-serious. There are other reasons to go monocolored, too; Moon effects, BTB, and of course Wasteland and Stifle. Tribal decks often have no particular reason to go outside of their primary color and it is in fact a (albeit small) sacrifice of consistency to do so.

I mean even Merfolk I think would be more viable at this point going white, but there are, in fact, some reasons still to go monocolor. Certainly most decks should not be, however.

[dsck]

Good monocolor decks:
Elf combo
Imperial Painter
Merfolk
Stax
Burn/Sligh
Pox
Death and Taxes
MUC
Goblins
High Tide/Spiral Tide

[DragoFireheart]

When someone calls you out for using straw men, you might not want to prove them right shortly after. Justathought

What strawman did I use? I asked if Scrying Sheets was even seen in a top 8/16 in the last couple years. When someone suggest X card is a reason to go mono-colored, it should also be a card that is actually a viable reason to go mono-colored.

Had he said wasteland in merfolk it would have been a better counterpoint, but why should Merfolk be the only viable mono-colored deck? Yeah, you'll see some burn and spiral tide, but when 90% of the most played decks are two or more colors, that should prove the point that mono-colored strategies are not as viable as multi-colored decks.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What strawman did I use? I asked if Scrying Sheets was even seen in a top 8/16 in the last couple years. When someone suggest X card is a reason to go mono-colored, it should also be a card that is actually a viable reason to go mono-colored.

Had he said wasteland in merfolk it would have been a better counterpoint, but why should Merfolk be the only viable mono-colored deck? Yeah, you'll see some burn and spiral tide, but when 90% of the most played decks are two or more colors, that should prove the point that mono-colored strategies are not as viable as multi-colored decks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient-market_hypothesis

Someday, maybe someone will be able to explain to you that what is played is not materially equivalent to what is good.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient-market_hypothesis

Someday, maybe someone will be able to explain to you that what is played is not materially equivalent to what is good.

Are you honestly suggesting that Scrying Sheets is a good card in legacy?

[Skeggi]

In a monocolored non-blue control deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6188-Deck-Quinn-The-Eskimo-Aka-The-Mighty-Quinn) it could be pretty good with Sensei's Divining Top (and/or Scroll Rack). Wether such a deck is good is a different discussion :wink:

[Rizso]

Are you honestly suggesting that Scrying Sheets is a good card in legacy?

Not yet! But if more snow cards or if snow duals would get released it could very much be a strong card.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

In a monocolored non-blue control deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6188-Deck-Quinn-The-Eskimo-Aka-The-Mighty-Quinn) it could be pretty good with Sensei's Divining Top (and/or Scroll Rack). Wether such a deck is good is a different discussion :wink:

I think that if I was playing a monocolored non-blue control deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6775-Deck-Death-and-Taxes) I would rather be playing Karakas and Mangara of Corondor.

[Skeggi]

Since when is Death and Taxes a control deck? :eek: Aggro/Control I can live with, but the deck requires some sort of fast pace where Scrying Sheets are too slow to generate card advantage.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Since when is Death and Taxes a control deck? :eek: Aggro/Control I can live with, but the deck requires some sort of fast pace where Scrying Sheets are too slow to generate card advantage.

Yeah, I guess it is more aggro/control, but I would rather be playing threats then doing nothing the whole game except paying 4 mana a turn to draw an extra card.

[Skeggi]

You're missing the point. A real control deck like Landstill, control version of The Rock or The Mighty Quinn has turns to spare. More often than not you just sit there grinding out the game waiting to draw the win condition. In tournaments, this leads to alot of draws. That's there Scrying Sheets comes in for the monocolored nonblue control deck (could also be MBC I guess). The only way you can get a use out of Scrying Sheets is if you get the time to use it and you have a certain amount of Snow cards in your deck. We talked about the time part - this is what Control provides. The Snowcount is only achievable if you run basic snow land - since the snow dual lands are terribad, hence you have to play monocolored.

TL;DR: your point with Death and Taxes is moot. But then again, I guess that's fitting for this thread :wink:

[TooCloseToTheSun]

You're missing the point. A real control deck like Landstill, control version of The Rock or The Mighty Quinn has turns to spare. More often than not you just sit there grinding out the game waiting to draw the win condition. In tournaments, this leads to alot of draws. That's there Scrying Sheets comes in for the monocolored nonblue control deck (could also be MBC I guess). The only way you can get a use out of Scrying Sheets is if you get the time to use it and you have a certain amount of Snow cards in your deck. We talked about the time part - this is what Control provides. The Snowcount is only achievable if you run basic snow land - since the snow dual lands are terribad, hence you have to play monocolored.

TL;DR: your point with Death and Taxes is moot. But then again, I guess that's fitting for this thread :wink:

I get what you are saying, but what i was trying to convey was that there are better decks that fill the same roll, whether that roll is a mono colored deck, a pure control deck or both doesn't really matter there are better decks. So the answer to my original question, whether or not scrying sheets is good, is that it is not good enough.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Are you honestly suggesting that Scrying Sheets is a good card in legacy?

First of all, yes. Having won a fair number of local tourneys with it I suppose I'm biased.

Second of all, while it may have come off a bit facetious, it was meant to be one mere example.

The format is, simply put, underexplored. That's understandable as it's a massive format and it changes every three months, and people tend to hug tightly to familiar archetypes (I suppose I'm no better, generally speaking.)

But monocolor decks in general? There's plenty of reasons to go that route. Wasteland and Stifle and Blood Moons are a good enough reason to go monocolor if there's no actual compelling reason for a deck to go to another.


I think that if I was playing a monocolored non-blue control deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6775-Deck-Death-and-Taxes) I would rather be playing Karakas and Mangara of Corondor.

I think if I'm playing a control deck I would try to gain reliable card advantage in the late game where the opponent is running out of steam, than try a bunch of cute tricks.


I get what you are saying, but what i was trying to convey was that there are better decks that fill the same roll, whether that roll is a mono colored deck, a pure control deck or both doesn't really matter there are better decks. So the answer to my original question, whether or not scrying sheets is good, is that it is not good enough.

This answer doesn't seem to be based on anything at all.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

This answer doesn't seem to be based on anything at all.

I mean I could run the numbers for you based on the last few Star City Games events but I think I can accurately guess that the number of scrying sheets in any of the lists is 0.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean I could run the numbers for you based on the last few Star City Games events but I think I can accurately guess that the number of scrying sheets in any of the lists is 0.

Aren't Magic players supposed to be math nerds or something? I'm definitely not and I still understand the difference between presence and performance. You could run those numbers but they wouldn't tell us a fucking single goddamn thing.

A deck isn't good because it's played or not, a deck is good because when it's played it performs well relative to the field. By your inexorable logic all good decks must always exist, and any new deck can't be good because it would have had to have been played already.

This is like Zeno's paradox for beginners or something.

[Amon Amarth]

Really? Just because something doesn't see play does not make it bad.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Aren't Magic players supposed to be math nerds or something? I'm definitely not and I still understand the difference between presence and performance. You could run those numbers but they wouldn't tell us a fucking single goddamn thing.

A deck isn't good because it's played or not, a deck is good because when it's played it performs well relative to the field. By your inexorable logic all good decks must always exist, and any new deck can't be good because it would have had to have been played already.

This is like Zeno's paradox for beginners or something.

But its not a new deck it is an established deck that has been around for quite some time, and no one plays it. Sure you could argue that the numbers don't reflect how good something is, all it shows us is what people play. But the fact that it hasn't put up a single result since 09' is kind of telling. Also, were you not the one who started an entire thread on how brainstorm needed to be banned based on the number of them in SCG top 8's? Seems weird that you can use those numbers but I can't.

EDIT:
"hasn't put up a single result since 09'" is a little off, that number was taken from deckcheck.de. On March 12, 2011 was the last top 8 appearance (out of 34 players) that was reported to TCDecks. They do not have a single top 8 for Mighty Quinn recorded in a tournament with over 50 people, and only ONE win ever more than a year ago.

[Skeggi]

You could also argue that because of the meta shift with Storm Combo decks being less dominant this deck is more eligible again. Because Storm Combo got this deck bad results people stopped playing it. But now the focus is completely on different decks, you could always try decks like this when such a significant meta change has taken place. I guess we could keep going on and on but it's pretty pointless. What are we trying to proof to eachother?

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

Aren't Magic players supposed to be math nerds or something? I'm definitely not

Yeah... you have 6000 posts on an internet website dedicated to talking about Magic cards; I think you're a nerd, bro...

Also.. yeah, Scrying Sheets? Build around it and have mild success FTW? I would rather build around stronger cards like Natural Order or Show and Tell or something like that.

[Skeggi]

If someone says he's not a math nerd he's not saying he's not a nerd.

[DragoFireheart]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient-market_hypothesis

Someday, maybe someone will be able to explain to you that what is played is not materially equivalent to what is good.

Right, because the only good cards are the ones you hypothetically think are good. Tournament data can't be used in any way to determine if a card/deck is good or not. Nope, tournament data is completely flawed in determining if a card is overpowered or not.


Really? Just because something doesn't see play does not make it bad.

Then why doesn't Scrying Sheets see more play? If Scrying Sheets is such a viable card for mono-colored decks, why don't we see more people using it?

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

Then why doesn't Scrying Sheets see more play? If Scrying Sheets is such a viable card for mono-colored decks, why don't we see more people using it?

Probably because mono color decks are less played than 2/3 color decks. And when people do play mono color decks they would usually rather play Wasteland or Mishra's Factory /Mutavault instead of Scrying Sheets, there are only so many slots in a manabase for colorless lands.

[DragoFireheart]

Probably because mono color decks are less played than 2/3 color decks. And when people do play mono color decks they would usually rather play Wasteland or Mishra's Factory /Mutavault instead of Scrying Sheets, there are only so many slots in a manabase for colorless lands.

Thank you.

Scrying Sheets is not viable because it is crap compared to the alternatives. Just because IBA can win a local tourney with a Mountain Goat doesn't suddenly make it a good card. If anything, the rest of his deck carried Scrying Sheets to the point that any jank land could have done decently.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Right, because the only good cards are the ones you hypothetically think are good. Tournament data can't be used in any way to determine if a card/deck is good or not. Nope, tournament data is completely flawed in determining if a card is overpowered or not.

Then why doesn't Scrying Sheets see more play? If Scrying Sheets is such a viable card for mono-colored decks, why don't we see more people using it?

I'm not gonna act like Scrying Sheets is good in a format defined by Wasteland, but on the other side of the coin just because a card isn't played doesn't mean it's not good. It's more that 75% of kids just want to rip a list off SCG top 8 instead of trying anything new.

[Skeggi]

How many of the people 'contributing' to this thread have actually played a modern version of The Mighty Quinn in the current meta?

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

I thought this thread was about whether or not Brainstorm should be banned. Seems that is has gone seriously off topic...

I haven't played that deck in this meta... and I haven't really said a single word about your mighty quin deck... I don't think Scrying Sheets is worth being built around because it's slow, only generates colorless mana, sometimes nets you very little cards for all its downsides and obviously dies to Wasteland, which most good decks play.

Winning a local tournament with this proves less than nothing. I win local tournaments with mono red burn and absolute piles made minutes beforehand. Pretty easy to win when you're playing against your backyard.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

How many of the people 'contributing' to this thread have actually played a modern version of The Mighty Quinn in the current meta?

I have not played the deck in any capacity in quite some time and the last time I played against was more than a year ago. I was playing allies, because it was hilarious, and absolutely destroyed it. I am not saying that this is evidence that the deck is bad but the fact that I haven't played against it in over a year might be a clue that it is.

[Octopusman]

Isn't it time to lock this thread yet?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Isn't it time to lock this thread yet?

It isn't time until the amount of retardation spewing from Drago, Snappingbowls, et al. becomes an unstoppable snowball of negative energy that implodes this site and pulls the rest of the internet with it, resulting in a cosmic cataclysm of apocalyptic stupidity.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

what in the fuck are you talking about... it's retarded to not play scrying sheets? wow... obviously you had nothing to say about magic but I'm glad you chimed in so we could all see how literate and eloquent you are...

I forgot you're locked in an eternal circle jerk with bear assassin because you love his e-peen and must defend his honor whenever people disagree with his ideas... keep it up bra

what I said about scrying sheets is true... there is not grand, master secret to why it doesn't get played, it's just not good enough?

Full warning for flaming. Your recent posts are intentionally inflammatory, apparently allergic to capital letters and proper punctuation, and make liberal use of the word "bro". Kindly make an effort to improve your posting habits.

Also this thread, as predicted, is closed. -zilla