Introducing: Grinding Station

[Jonathan Alexander]

THIS THREAD IS OUDATED. This post was last updated in January 2012.
Since we added Infernal Tutors to this deck in late 2012, this deck has gotten much closer to Ad Nauseam Tendrils. You should check out the ANT thread, where this deck is discussed as well. If you have any questions, feel free to pm me. I usually take my time to answer all the questions I get, although I sometimes refer to my articles. You can check them out here: https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/

I'll leave the original post intact for now. I think some of it is quite intersting to keep in mind, but most of it isn't accurate anymore.

//

Yes, Grinding Station.


http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=51229&type=card

No, not this one.

Table Of Content:
1. History
2. Grinding Station
3. How To Play
3.1 Opening Hands
3.2 A Few Guidelines
4. Additional Reading


1. "Brief" History

First things first, history lesson. I think to understand the deck, and how it works, it's useful to take a look at what the deck evolved from and why it exists.

Let's go back a few weeks. When my team was preparing for GP Amsterdam, we obviously build a gauntlet. I played pretty much all of the decks a decent amount of time and we were testing them against each other. In particular, I liked this Ad Nauseam Tendrils list:

Ad Nauseam Tendrils by Team Screw Attack

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils Of Agony
3 Thoughtseize
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea

4 Dark Confidant
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain Of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Tropical Island

It was the first time I picked up storm combo in a while, basically since I started playing Team America again in March. So obviously the list is far from perfect. It should probably splash white for Orim's Chant and Silence rather than sticking to the discard spells. In consequence, I should cut the Xantid Swarms from the sideboard, considering how much Canadian Thresh there is right now, as they don't board out their removal against us anyway. At the time we were testing this list though, we did not know how strong Thresh actually was.

Generally speaking, my list was subpar, but still strong. It could be very explosive with a two Ad Nauseam setup and a lot of protection, but also had the potential to play rather long games (for a combo deck). With all the cantrips, especially Gitaxian Probe, I could often naturally reach storm ten, without resolving a key engine spell. Also, by turn four or five, the opponent often already helped me by fetching at least two times. With a full grip containing one or more cantrips and a protection spell, casting Tendrils Of Agony for eighteen is a cakewalk.

In those grindy games (yeah, we're slowly getting there) starting a turn with eight cards in hand and casting Gitaxian Probe usually results in a win. You have storm one, know your opponent's hand and still have a full grip. This is so much value just from a single card, it's incredible. You could say that Gitaxian Probe was the backbone of my list.

I've really been liking the hands with a naturally drawn Tendrils and I added some more. I don't know my exact setup at that point, but I think I actually just cut an Ad Nauseam for the second Tendrils. At the same time, I really wanted to try out Past In Flames.

In the maindeck, there was no room for Past In Flames, so I went to the sideboard. Cutting Dark Confidant was the obvious move, as they both fulfil similar roles; they're both there to improve the blue matchup. They both let you shoot mini-Tendrils, but Past In Flames does so way more effectively. Past In Flames might cost two mana more, but in exchange it doesn't die to removal, doesn't get countered by Spell Snare, which seems to be everywhere right now and can be recast after it gets countered.

I boarded out the Ad Nauseam plan against blue decks, bringing in additional Tendrils and some Past In Flames. It puts a lot of pressure on your opponent and works nicely with Lion's Eye Diamond. Also, casting Gitaxian Probes off Past In Flames is pretty sweet.

My approach for game one usually was "win as fast as possible no matter what they're playing". Often this meant: "go all-in on turn one or two Ad Nauseam". The plan was actually okay. More often than not, the blue player is not going to have the Force Of Will in hand, let alone two active pieces of countermagic on turns zero to two, meaning a single piece of disruption is usually enough. At least this is the case in game one, when they don't really see it coming.

I noticed that what the deck really wanted, rather than Chrome Moxen, which were bad with the cantrip-plan, were additional Rituals. I did not know what else to play besides Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual though. I once played a Spanish Inquisition-style Ad Nauseam list (no, not successfully, but it was fun and interesting), so I borrowed from that and considered Culling The Weak. As of late, I've really been disliking cute tricks though, so that idea quickly fell out of favour.

I did not think too hard about it though, as, judging from my testing, the deck was actually strong enough. I consistently beat most decks I tested against. Only Team America was an absolute nightmare. I wanted to test the deck against the other combo decks in the format (mostly the ANT mirror and Reanimator, both of which I expected to be heavily played at the GP), but sadly, I did not have the time since I spent the days leading up to the GP in good old England.

Flash forward to GP Amsterdam. As I mentioned before, we really liked our Canadian Thresh list, and due to a lack of testing, we settled on playing that. It was really strong, and while I totally scrubbed out, my teammate finished 107th or something. I had the time to play some side events and jam a few games with friends. I continued working on my storm list and tried out Empty The Warrens in the board and maindeck Rain Of Filth instead of Chrome Moxen. Both have proven to be worth running. This was my list at that time:

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
2 Rain Of Filth
1 Badlands
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
2 Tendrils Of Agony
2 Thoughtseize

3 Chain Of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Extirpate
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Wipe Away
1 Volcanic Island
3 Past In Flames
2 Tendrils Of Agony

I still had the Ad Nauseam plan in the maindeck, but I moved away from that shortly thereafter. A friend of mine, Christian Bien, already told me to not play Ad Nauseam anymore and go for the full four Tendrils Of Agony maindeck instead. With that setup, I also dropped the Infernal Tutors and the Ill-Gotten Gains. At some point, my list had seventeen lands, but often I was flooding hard. Before I get further into detail, here's the current list:


2. Grinding Station by Team Screw Attack

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
2 Rain Of Filth
4 Duress
2 Empty The Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Past In Flames
4 Ponder
4 Tendrils Of Agony
2 Thoughtseize

1 Badlands
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

//Sideboard
1 Ad Nauseam
3 Chain Of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Extirpate
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Wipe Away
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor

I think I said enough about the maindeck already (and will talk about some more), so let's take a look at the sideboard. It's still in progress, but I don't board too many cards most of the time anyway. I think the one thing that strikes out is the Infernal Tutor package. This is mostly for the aggro matchups, when they bring in hatebears (Maverick is still super big in Europe) and sometimes, I board it in in combo mirrors, depending on what they're playing. With this package you're much faster and thus you can more reasonably kill them before they land a bear.

The bounce spells are somewhat mandatory. With this setup, pretty much everything is covered up. Especially Hurkyl's Recall is very good at bouncing multiple hate permanents and Ethersworn Canonist despite of an active Mother Of Runes.

The Extirpates are in there because I thought Reanimate was a tough matchup, but it doesn't seem too bad as long as they don't have Iona, Shield Of Emeria too early. They also come in handy against control or other combo decks at times. If I knew what else to play, I would probably go down to two.


3. How To Play

So now that we have the list, let's go a little into actual gameplay. In a nutshell, your plan is to drop lands until you have eight spells in hand. At that point, you go off. My experience so far has been that holding onto your cantrips until your combo turn is often the best thing to do. An alternative name for this deck was "Draw, Go, Grind, Tendrils". And this is really all you do with the deck.

My testing has proven that opting to draw is the right choice most of the time. Even against Hymn To Tourach decks you should not be afraid to let them play. They're only going to have the turn two Hymn to Tourach (which you can barely play around anyway, turn two kills don't happen too often) in slightly more than 40% of the games. If they're going to cast a cantrip on turn one, the percentage goes up by some points. You're definitely going to get the extra card though, and that's quite important.

3.1 Opening Hands

As for opening hands, I almost never take mulligans with the deck. As long as there's mana and some kind of business - even cantrips do the job - I keep my hands. Since this deck is not much of a "big spell deck", you're not as reliant on disruption as other combo decks are. Given you have enough rituals, countermagic is usually not much of a hindrance. Let's go through a few hands.

Polluted Delta
Polluted Delta
Polluted Delta
Ponder
Thoughtseize
Gitaxian Probe
Dark Ritual

This is a clear keep. Unless you sense combo at the other side of the table, you're going to play draw, go for at least three turns. If there actually is combo, you can fetch for an Underground Sea and cast Thoughtseize on turn one or two to slow them down a bit. Also, Counterbalance seems to make a comeback and you might want to try to strip your opponent's hand of that card if they're playing it. Otherwise, just wait until your hand is all business (or you draw into Brainstorm) and start the turn with Gitaxian Probe. You're going to see what you need to play around and then act accordingly.

Rain Of Filth
Tendrils Of Agony
Gitaxian Probe
Ponder
Badlands
Underground Sea
Polluted Delta

This hand is a bit worse than the first one since you're holding more than one nonbasic, which opens you up to Wasteland, but you have the Tendrils, which is very nice. Again, play draw, go until you have enough spells to go off. It's really that simple. Just make sure you're not running headfirst into Stifle, so you might want to dig for a discard spell if your opponent has it.

Tendrils Of Agony
Gitaxian Probe
Duress
Past In Flames
Dark Ritual
Underground Sea
Scalding Tarn

One of the best hands you can possibly get, outside of turn one or two kills, which this hand might actually produce if you happen to draw a Lion's Eye Diamond or additional Rituals. You should lead with the Scalding Tarn to play around Wasteland. Since you have Past In Flames alongside a protection spell, you don't need to wait until your hand is full, you can just rush it out. If your opponent counters any of your spells, you're very likely to still reach the necessary spell count, despite not having a boatload of cantrips.

Past In Flames
Past In Flames
Brainstorm
Lotus Petal
Rain Of Filth
Island
Scalding Tarn

While this hand might not be as strong as the hands above, it's still a keep. You have Brainstorm to shuffle away excess copies of Past In Flames and if you draw any kind of Ritual or a Lion's Eye Diamond, you should be able to go off easily. Keep in mind that you're going to see at least five additional cards. But also keep in mind that a Past In Flames hand needs some form of protection, so make sure you get some before you go off.

3.2 A Few Guidelines

Since the gameplay is so super simple, I'm not going to talk anymore about that. Most of the things you need to do have already been explained in the opening hands discussion, but here are a few guidelines:

3.2.1. You always opt to draw.
This way you kill about one turn faster. You're opponent gets the same amount of turns, but you deny them the extra card they would get if you chose to play. Without combo engines, every single card counts.

3.2.2. Almost every hand is a keep.
You rarely need to mulligan with this deck. As long as there's some business and mana in your hand, you don't need to mull. Business is everything that's not mana or disruption. Past In Flames only works as business if you have a lot of mana and cantrips though.

3.3.3. Protection is often unnecessary.
Yes, that's right. Due to the storm mechanic and the amount of rituals this deck has, you rarely care about countermagic. Unless you go for Past In Flames, there are pretty much only three cards outside of discard you care about: Stifle, Flusterstorm and Counterbalance. Sure there are more, but these are the only ones that actually see play.

3.3.4. Lead with Gitaxian Probe, don't get your Rituals countered.
Leading with Probe is probably obvious. It's your strongest card in almost every single matchup. After that, you're going for additional cantrips, then discard (if you need it), then rituals. If that plan works, you win. Most of the time, it does.

Additional Reading

Past In Flames In Legacy: Grinding Station (http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2011/12/02/6/)
-An article on the deck by me

Being On Fire: 7-0 with Grinding Station/ (http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2011/12/09/being-on-fire-7-0-with-grinding-station/)
-a tournament report by me

Grinding Station discussion over at the Storm Boards (http://www.teamstormboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=stormcombo&action=display&thread=288)


If you have any questions, just let me know. I'm most likely going to expand this in the future, with some matchup analyses, card choice discussion and so forth. I know there are several things I left out, but I don't feel like writing a ton about a deck only I play. If people show interest in the deck, you can expect me to write some more.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Reserved for future edits.

[HokusSchmokus]

Very interesting deck. Since I played against it today, I am really amazed by the huge consistency of this Deck.

[Michael Keller]

What exactly does this deck have anything to do with the card "Grinding Station?"

[Amon Amarth]

What exactly does this deck have anything to do with the card "Grinding Station?"

Yeah, I'm really confused I read the opening post and looked through the decklists... and no Grinding Station. You might want to change the name. :P

[redhamjack]

Yeah, I'm really confused I read the opening post and looked through the decklists... and no Grinding Station. You might want to change the name. :P


I think the idea with grinding station is to mill yourself to put rituals into your yard, then past into flames for extra mana. With lotus petal and LEDs untaping it would be easy enough. But yeah, its omission in the deck lists is glaring.

On another note, wouldn't brain freezing yourself be strictly better? Assuming my understanding is correct.

[Vacrix]

Interesting list. This is my analysis of how the deck works in comparison to TES and ANT. These decks rely more on resolving AdN or BW/IT for the win, while your team's deck relies more on PIF --> Tendrils. These other decks that rely on BW and IT are therefore putting all their eggs in one basket, often trying to ride a LED + Tutor into IGG or a kill condition. Your deck can afford to get the first attempt countered because the second attempt can resolve from the graveyard. In this sense, Rain of Filth makes absolutely no sense to me. It completely cuts you off from this option. I really think you should play Rite of Flames or something, even if you lack Burning Wish. Past in Flames and Empty the Warrens are red business spells so why not play a few red rituals? Further, Rain of Filth makes Wasteland that much stronger against you. I'd consider Bubbling Muck if you don't want to play any red rituals. Imagine you could drop it with Lotus Petal instead of a land, and then tap all your swamps for an additional black.

I like that you have the IGG loop hidden in the board. Thats pretty tight.


I'd recommend throwing down some sample hands though just so its easier for people to follow your logic. Not just the opening hands but how you go about playing the deck itself. Those are only good, consistent hands because of how the deck is built but the layman can't see that.

[John Cox]

The idea with this deck is to 8 vs 7 your opponent, drawing into the rest of the storm count via cantrips or going for double tendrils, Past in Flames is just gravy. This deck has nothing to do with the card grinding station that's just a euphemism.

[Sims]

What exactly does this deck have anything to do with the card "Grinding Station?"

What did Solidarity have to do with the Solidarity?

[Jonathan Alexander]

What did Solidarity have to do with the Solidarity?

I was going to say this as well. The deck is called Grinding Station because it grinds out games. Also, Grinding Station is an awesome card. I'm definitely going to stick with the name, we don't need more decknames like RUG Tempo or BUR Tendrils. Boring.

As for how the deck plays, John Cox is right. It's really that simple. Most often, you don't even cast your cantrips early (unless you need to make landdrops) but hold onto them until you can go off with 3+ lands in play. That way you can cast two cantrips or more when you go off and easily reach storm ten without casting storm engines.

What Past In Flames does is mostly just destroy blue decks even more. If you go off once and then fizzle or get stopped or whatever, you can go off with Past In Flames again as soon as you have a ritual in hand (assuming you didn't throw all your lands into Rain Of Filth).

The Past In Flames route is also faster and easier to execute, so it's pretty good against non-blue decks as well. For potsboard games you bring in the Infernal Tutor package.

It seems the opening post is somewhat confusing, so I'm going to edit that later today, chopping some of the history which noone reads anyway.

Also, opening hands are pretty hard with this deck, as you often don't do anything during the first few turns of the game and how you play depends heavily on what you're playing against. Against most blue opponents for example, I opt to draw and play land, go for at least three turns, unless I'm forced to dig for lands.

I might make some videos if I find the time to record some. Sadly there are no feature matches in the events I usually play in, otherwise I could link those.

[Michael Keller]

What did Solidarity have to do with the Solidarity?

There's a difference. I opened the thread to this page and all I saw was a giant image of the card in my grill. I thought it had something to do with it.

Shame.

[Henrik]

Well ok, I've been trying this deck out for a couple of days now, and in my very modest and humble not-at-all-pro opinion, it's Total Freakin' Bonkers!!

I would be very keen on hearing of any updates you may have done to your list. My only comment on the list above is that I felt the 1-of rain of filth rather unnecessary, while also giving no added value when flashbacked. The STD on the other hand has been gold every time I've seen it, so yeah a single -1 rain + STD would be my only changes for now.

Also, I haven't really used the sideboard at all. I just didn't need to =)
So what are your thoughts on that, have you prepared any concrete SB-plans for specific matches, or do you just make it up as you go? As for now, I guess all I really want my SB to do is protect my grave and bounce dorky hatebears.

Anywho, well done, I'm a fan.

[GGoober]

At first this deck looks like UBR ANT or Tendrils with PiF, but goldfishing and reading your explanation saw a clear deviation on your approach to storm-combo i.e. having the ability to draw a god-hand and go nuts or simply slowly building multiple mini-tendrils (if failed) and eventually killing your opponent.

It's the same way as how lifelink and many other mechanism (involving prison) buys tempo and turns, which is used as resource. Impressed, keep up the good work. I have always been interested in UR PiF/Intuition/Brain Freeze engines playing similarly with a strong consistent mid-game plan, but the issue has always been running into the stage where you lost due to life-loss, but the UBr approach to such a playstyle makes much more sense, since mini-tendrils really buy you another 2-4 turns, which builds up into another mini-tendrils (or usually a lethal one if you top deck PiF or ANT).

I personally think that as much as ANT is going to be awkward with so many high costed spells, it's still an insane topdeck (just as topdecking PiF but without being prone to Surgical extraction/GY hate). The main weakness of this deck that I can see is Extraction on non--lethal Tendrils (because part of the appeal of the mid-game consistency is the ability to buy turns with the lifegain from tendrils). Any strategy to fighting extractions against Canadian Thresh?

[HokusSchmokus]

At first this deck looks like UBR ANT or Tendrils with PiF, but goldfishing and reading your explanation saw a clear deviation on your approach to storm-combo i.e. having the ability to draw a god-hand and go nuts or simply slowly building multiple mini-tendrils (if failed) and eventually killing your opponent.

It's the same way as how lifelink and many other mechanism (involving prison) buys tempo and turns, which is used as resource. Impressed, keep up the good work. I have always been interested in UR PiF/Intuition/Brain Freeze engines playing similarly with a strong consistent mid-game plan, but the issue has always been running into the stage where you lost due to life-loss, but the UBr approach to such a playstyle makes much more sense, since mini-tendrils really buy you another 2-4 turns, which builds up into another mini-tendrils (or usually a lethal one if you top deck PiF or ANT).

I personally think that as much as ANT is going to be awkward with so many high costed spells, it's still an insane topdeck (just as topdecking PiF but without being prone to Surgical extraction/GY hate). The main weakness of this deck that I can see is Extraction on non--lethal Tendrils (because part of the appeal of the mid-game consistency is the ability to buy turns with the lifegain from tendrils). Any strategy to fighting extractions against Canadian Thresh?
That's why you run ETW and why I would recommend running Grapeshot SB. A lethal Grapeshot is not particularly hard with PiF

[Malchar]

This reminds me of Spanish Inquisition, which used to be quite decent before they printed Ad Nauseam. It simply used all free mana plus cruel bargain/infernal contract to get up to the lethal 10 storm.

I love the idea of using 6 storm spells in the main and not relying on any particular bomb spell like Ad Nauseam. This lets you beat countermagic, which is the only real weakness for typical storm decks.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Well ok, I've been trying this deck out for a couple of days now, and in my very modest and humble not-at-all-pro opinion, it's Total Freakin' Bonkers!!

I would be very keen on hearing of any updates you may have done to your list. My only comment on the list above is that I felt the 1-of rain of filth rather unnecessary, while also giving no added value when flashbacked. The STD on the other hand has been gold every time I've seen it, so yeah a single -1 rain + STD would be my only changes for now.

Also, I haven't really used the sideboard at all. I just didn't need to =)
So what are your thoughts on that, have you prepared any concrete SB-plans for specific matches, or do you just make it up as you go? As for now, I guess all I really want my SB to do is protect my grave and bounce dorky hatebears.

Anywho, well done, I'm a fan.

For me, the ninth ritual has been necessary. I don't consistently get enough rituals to go off, and that can really be an issue. Smart players will counter your rituals and thus only having one of them when you plan to go off can really suck. But I agree on Divining Top being incredible. Starting your turn with nine cards in hand is sick.

As for the sideboard, I posted boarding plans on my blog, the article is linked in the OP now. The sideboard is certainly the weakest aspect of the deck, but to be fair, it isn't much needed anyway.



Any strategy to fighting extractions against Canadian Thresh?

Just don't get Tendrils into your graveyard. They should never have priority while you have a Tendrils in your graveyard. Generally, using mini-Tendrils over multiple turns is not too strong a strategy.

By the way, Grapeshot is not that good either. I tested it several times and I just didn't like it. And yeah, I noticed the similarity to SI as well. In fact, this is actually very similar to QSI. As far as maindeck storm spells go, I'm only running five right now. Not sure if that's the way to go though.

[lordofthepit]

Given how important land drops are to this storm variant, do you feel comfortable with just 15?

I have experience playing ANT (both with and without the red splash). With 16-17 lands and 10-11 cantrips, I sometimes get flooded or am unable to get hellbent quickly enough, but occasionally, I have to mull my hands because I don't have enough land. That deck is much faster than Grinding Station, so I'm typically looking for fewer land drops anyway.

It seems like with Grinding Station, I have 8 "real" cantrips (Brainstorm and Ponder), Sensei's Divining Top (which is even better at digging for land, but more mana intensive), and 4 Probes which don't really help you dig. I'm a bit skeptical that you can always reliably hit your land drops with just 15 land, even if you do choose to play second (thus getting an extra card each game).

[Jonathan Alexander]

Actually I have way more problems with flooding than with manascrew. Only hitting three land is not an issue at all, whereas drawing two additional lands when you already kept two or three can easily cost you the game. On top of that, Lotus Petal is even better than an actual landdrop most of the time, as it makes rainbow mana and adds to the storm count. Assuming you only have one Gitaxian Probe and one other cantrip, you can't reliably win the game without casting Past In Flames as you can't cast nine spells before you cast Tendrils.

Regarding cantrips, I'm currently testing a version with only two Ponder and three Preordain so I have some cantrips that are good before I go off. Only a slight difference but I think it does make the deck a bit more consistent.

[Dark Ritual]

I'm usually fine with flooding out and getting 5 lands in play. It makes rain of filth a champion and on the combo turn I want as much mana as I can get generally, especially with the cantrips since there are no blue rituals aside from petal. I only have a problem with land flood in games where I don't need the land i.e. I'm on the ad nauseam plan and I want to get hellbent for infernal but cannot due to land and lack of LED. But with this deck you typically don't get flooded what with 15 land being a lowish land count.

I vastly prefer ponder to preordain in combo decks. I always max out ponder before I even consider preordain; at the moment I'm just running 4 probe, brainstorm, and ponder for cantrips. I've considered SDT but there's always the question of what to cut. Top does seem like it would be incredibly unfair in here to play it out turn 1 and get to pick which of the top 3 you want each turn since you're generally playing draw go. And then you get to start out with 9 cards in hand on the combo turn, something that is quite invaluable.

[lordofthepit]

Your recommendation is to play draw-go until you're ready to go off, saving your cantrips even for the go-off turn (usually).

In what situations would you fire off your cantrips earlier (i.e. to dig for land, for instance, if you're stuck on two)?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Digging for land is a good reason, as is being cantrip-flooded. Outside of Gitaxian Probe, you don't really want to have more than two cantrips during your combo turn. Ideally, when going the Storm X route, you want to have three to four lands, at least one Gitaxian Probe, a Brainstorm to get rid of land, 2+ Rituals, one or two discard spells (only if they have Stifle), Tendrils. The rest can basically be anything, as long as you have the mana to cast it. Lotus Petals are actually very strong in this deck.

Outside of that, it really depends. You need to think about how you want your hand to look like depending on how it actually looks. When you already have Past In Flames and some discard spells, there's no reason to try to sculpt a Storm X hand. Then you can also cast your cantrips earlier. That's what I like about the deck, it's very resilient and versatile so it's neither bad nor boring to play.

I don't have MTGO, but when I get around to do so, I'm gonna record one or two games on Cockatrice or something.

[Henrik]

I've been trying this deck out some more.

Compared to ANT and TES, the LEDs in this deck are quite weak. Sure, they are still black lotus in conjunction with PiF, so calling them weak might seem like blasphemy ;) but in the storm X route, which I found to be the most common win, their only purpose is actually to generate storm. Also, I very rarely (never?) board in the ANT package from the SB. Actually, I don't use that SB strategy anymore.

I have been toying with the idea of removing them from the deck, but there are quite few realistic alternatives. Red rituals are what comes to mind.

I understand that some of you will say "just don't do it", and that's fine, I get it. But say I want to test it, then please help me with these questions:
- Which red ritual would be best to use?
- Would any other changes to the decklist be beneficial when using additional rituals instead of LED? (I was thinking Intuition)

[DireLemming]

Rite of Flame is without a doubt the best red ritual, although it is not the most synergistic with PiF. Eschewing LEDs also makes running counterspells a much more enticing proposition. Or you can just run Burning Wish which at the same time makes LEDs better.

[Dark Ritual]

The AdN package in the SB is for the 'rough' matchups i.e. nonblue decks generally without countermagic. I wouldn't leave home without it, in theory you could board into DDFT though since we run 12 cantrips 4 of those being probe although without sensei's top I'm not sure if it's worth it. And DDFT sometimes has trouble against aggro when you halve your lifetotal.

I wouldn't replace LED. Sure, it has almost cost me games when I would have preferred rite of flame to LED to generate actual mana or had more spells to flashback with PiF but LED is just bonkers with PiF and the postboard plan of AdN + IT against maverick and other such decks. There have been games where if I didn't draw LED I would have lost, where I can't get lethal tendrils and have to settle for a mini tendrils but have a PiF in the yard and LED helps flashback PiF like a champ when you topdeck multiples or one LED + a dark rit or cabal rit or something.

I wouldn't run countermagic in this deck even if I didn't run LED, not even pact of negation would cut it for me because it's too all in to cast pact and other free countermagic costs an additional card from hand that we likely need. And countermagic that costs mana seems just worse than duress effects or even defense grid.

[Jonathan Alexander]

It's right that the Lion's Eye Diamonds are worse than in other combo decks. I'd rather have Lotus Petal 5-8 to be honest. It's also true that they're quite good with Burning Wish though, I've been thinking about that lately and a friend already played a list with Burnng Wishes maindeck. The sideboard is supposed to let you win against aggro decks ironically, where you have to win as early as possible.

Red rituals are mostly bad, the only exception is Rite of Flame. That's only medium bad. You could run the second Rain of Filth, they're really good unless you have multiples.

Intuition I wouldn't play, much rather Meditate. Intuition is really bad against Surgical Extraction, which seems to be everywhere right now and both get countered by Red Blast and Spell Pierce easily. That's contrary to this deck's general philosophy.

Speaking of boarding into DDFT, this is what I played today to a 6th place finish in a 71 players event:

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Meditate
1 Rain of Filth

1 Badlands
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

3 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Past in Flames
3 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Rite of Flame
3 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize

//Sideboard
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Extirpate
1 Rain of Filth
1 Sudden Shock
1 Shelldock Isle
4 Doomsday
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Past in Flames
1 Silent Departure
1 Tendrils Of Agony

Doomsday sucked, although that could've been me not being able to build piles (it certainly was). I wouldn't play it again. The issue is that I want a boarding plan that makes me faster and Doomsday just doesn't do that for me. I expected a lot of Dredge and luckily I didn't play against it once.

Burning Wish was pretty strong most of the time, but I didn't play against Threshold at all. Rite of Flame was okay, but mostly only with Wish. Three Wishes seems to be the right number in case I should stick to it.

Chain of Vapor needs to be somewhere. I lost a game to Leyline of Sanctity out of Lands (in fact, I lost the match 1-2 which was my only loss). I'd also like to have a discard spell in the board. Maybe the third Thoughtseize or something. I think it might be time cut the Sudden Shocks entirely now, although I'm not sure on that yet. Sudden Shock and Silent Departure were the only cards I never used today, but I never played against Maverick.

The core of the deck worked just fine as always, I pulled quite a few double Tendrils and Storm X kills. Don't expect a report, most games were uneventful.

By the way, Preordain over Ponder is just good.

[der_agibert]

Hey Jona,

I really enjoyed your primer and blog entries. Being bored and tired with TES losing to itself far too often Grinding Station seems the way to go for me. Especially, I am really into its consistence and ability to buy time by casting mini-Tendrils and recycling them later in a lethal PiF.

I'm running pretty much your 2nd initial list on Cockatrice exept for -Rain of Filth / +SDT and 4x Polluted Delta, 2x U-Fetch and 2x B-Fetch as I often found myself opting to Duress while being immune against Wasteland at the same time.

Have you made any significant changes or do you have any further recommandation up to now?
Please keep on writing. To my mind, Grinding Station still hasn't had its brightest hour and is far from getting the attention and play it deserves.

[Jonathan Alexander]

First off, thanks!

I agree that Grinding Station doesn't get the attention it deserves. It's well positioned both in the US and in Europe, but I think it plays out too differently from other combo decks so it's too easily dismissed. Anyway.

I wouldn't advise cutting Rain of Filth. That card is bonkers. I'm running two of them again. Also, Divining Top is too slow for my taste. What's your list right now?

My current list is here: Report. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23303-Double-Report-5-1-and-5-2-with-Grinding-Station.)

I played the same 75 in two tournaments, finishind 3rd and 10th on breakers. Lost against Faithless Looting Dredge in both tournaments. As of now, I wouldn't really change anything about the list, except for maybe (really, just maybe) Diminishing Returns or Time Spiral over Grapeshot. Grapeshot did pretty much nothing for me so far.

By the way, I think the fetchland split should be skewed towards blue. Basic Island is way more important than basic Swamp. The Swamp isn't needed most of the time, and it's only good if you're both light on rituals and light on land. This is also due to the fact that I pretty much don't cast mini-Tendrils anymore at all. I'm usually going for one big turn as of late, most of the time just the storm x route, sometimes with Past in Flames, rarely double Tendrils.

[lordofthepit]

I notice you've made some changes recently. I love the Preordains. I'm using them more aggressively to set up my land drops and to ensure I get a healthy balance of ritual effects and gas (i.e., not just as a way to get 10 vs. 7 in the combo turn, as you've previously suggested for using cantrips). Is that how you use them?

Also, how have the Burning Wishes been doing for you? I loved that the old decklist was pretty much immune to Spell Snare. Is it pulling its weight?

[Jonathan Alexander]

That's exactly how I play the Preordains and also the reason why they're better than Ponder in this deck. For the combo turn, you already have Brainstorms and Gitaxian Probes, so there's no need for Ponder. I'm going to try 4/4/1 soon.

Burning Wish is amazing, although I board it out against most blue decks, bringing in Tendrils, Empty the Warrens and Past in Flames. But they're really good against everything without Spell Snare, which is also not that much of an issue anymore with Cabal Therapy in the list, which works almost like Orim's Chant / Silence against blue decks.

[der_agibert]

Sorry, Jona, haven't been checking this thread recently.
Thank you very much for keeping it up and sharing our thoughts and new list with us.

I do not think sharing my old list would have any real benefit to this thread as it just a slight alteration of your initial one, the majority already listed in my last post. I will rather comment on the differences in my further remarks.

I've just read your double report on your modified list and goldfished it quite a few times in the last 20mins. At first glance, it seems to run even smoother and at the same time enables quicker, yet suffiently protected kills if needed. Props on that.
I love the additional wishes for offering more business and versatility while not having the mentioned "all-in/all-lost" character of Infernal Tutors relying way heavier (i.e. hellbent) on LED.

I see your point now concerning the Fetchies, the basic Island is just really way more important because of early cantrip actions. Changed that back shortly after some matches on cockatrice.

Furthermore, yesterday's testings against Belcher and UR Control ft. Painter+Stone once more showed me Ponder's disadvantage: The well-known turn 1 or 2 "1 cool, 2 crap cards" scenario without Fetchies in play/found.
Even though I was on TES and you can hardly compare it to Grinding Station in so many aspects, it eventually convinced me to give Preordain a try changing Ponders' slots to 2x Preordain and 2x Ponder in both decks. But do not see that as this subject's answer to everything, right now I tend to run even more Preordains as I really liked them in the first few matches with your new list. They are simply better to be cast in the early game in order to sculpt a reasonable hand and ensure the first 2 or 3 land drops.

Your being right regarding SDTs' slowness and "counter me, please"-character, I am still not 100% sure about 2x Rain.
On the one hand, they are not accumulative when having two of them or flashback-partying with PiF. Furthermore, when going the fast IT+ANT SB-route, they are hardly ever better than just a Petal for B. But that should not be an argument here as we both know that Rain is the worst, but needed fastmana in Grinding Station.
On the other hand, they are incredible to reach CRs' Threshold and serving a huge amount of B in grinding long games.
Especially with your new integration of Rite of Flame (even though I seems like a one-off filler, justifiably, and -R / +2 storm wishtarget after boarding) I was thinking about running 1x Rain and a 2nd Rite instead. But I guess you spent much more testing on your list than me and already considered it.
Right now, having written this paragraph, however, I think it is actually true that the 2nd Rain is better after all :D

-

Going through your current list, there are some aspects I'd love to hear more about:

Firstly, your protection-suit aka the division of discard spells. I can absolutely see Therapy's point with Probe and other discard spells, but why not just additional Duresses/Thoughtseizes in its slots? Of course, facing hands with multiple one-of-a-kind counter spells, Therapy turns to pure gold ripping 2 of them with just one spell. But why would your opponent let Therapy resolve having 2x FoWs in hand (if I remember your report correctly)? Is it just because people tend to hoping you do not know how to use it properly that you play it over other cc1 discard spells? Even if you were to play it to oppose pesky hate-bears like Thalia or Censor, wouldn't Thoughtseizes be just better (despite its life loss)?
Or did I just horribly miss any aspect of Cabal? :)
EDIT: Having read your reports a 2nd time, ever-present Thresh featuring Stifles is another reason for CT, right?

Secondly, why are you not running the full playset Wishes? I often found myself stuck with a whole lot of acceleration with the old list, lacking business. Wish is just great in almost every situation as it may act not only as PiF or Tendrils but as an additional permission spell (given you run 1x Duress/TS/CT in our SB) or anti-hate as well (as you did it with Chain Lightning disposing of Teeg).

Thirdly, Grapeshot and Telemin Performance in our SB (never heard of Performance before, had to look it up :) ). Grapeshot never came to me as a good slot in wishboards. Cook is convinced that it is worth the slot for turning a non-lethal Tendrils to a lethal one and killing hate bears, however, I think of it mostly as win-more and a way of swanking about casting it for storm 20. To my mind, Infest should get that slot as it is higly capable of wiping the board against Maverick's hate-bears through a Mother and furthermore getting rid goblin tokens by Belcher and other storm builds and cleaning random boards to buy another turn or two. Ruin of Virtue is worse as one should not have any problems having access to 1BB and being just more specific as an additional down-side. Pyroclasm is just insufficient in that slot due to a Mother protecting the hatebear.
Am I right that Performance is only reasonable against opposing Storm builds (and to a lesser extent S&T decks)? Was it a meta call or do you really think it is worth a slot in an unknown enviroment?

[Dark Ritual]

Telemin Performance is also wonderful against lands if they don't run dark confidant, because they typically board confidant against us at least in my experience due to all their dead cards. Also works against old school landstill without snapcaster, but I wouldn't play it against them on the offchance that they run some creature and you just lose.

The only reason I would shave on the count of rain of filth is because I ALWAYS seem to draw both of them when playing this deck :mad: without a brainstorm to shuffle one away. It also seems less effective with 15 land in Jona's current list, if you have just 3 lands it's a dark ritual sure I adore the card when I have 4+ lands because it's black lotus for black mana and the interaction with cabal ritual is insane with that many lands you're practically guaranteed threshold.

Have you ever thought of running Dark Confidant in the SB Jona? I've thought about it, but it doesn't seem to fit anywhere. Although maybe I'm just trying to squeeze it in for the cabal therapy interaction it has, which is quite favorable for us for ripping an opponents hand apart. Also, has spell snare been an issue at all with the new list? That was the allure of the old list IMO, they could only snare cabal ritual and that was it.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I've just read your double report on your modified list and goldfished it quite a few times in the last 20mins. At first glance, it seems to run even smoother and at the same time enables quicker, yet suffiently protected kills if needed. Props on that.
I love the additional wishes for offering more business and versatility while not having the mentioned "all-in/all-lost" character of Infernal Tutors relying way heavier (i.e. hellbent) on LED.

Yes, I agree. Burning Wish really does a lot for this deck, even though there are only three. You don't want too many of them, but they're often nice to have. They also make Lion's Eye Diamond better.



Your being right regarding SDTs' slowness and "counter me, please"-character, I am still not 100% sure about 2x Rain.
On the one hand, they are not accumulative when having two of them or flashback-partying with PiF. Furthermore, when going the fast IT+ANT SB-route, they are hardly ever better than just a Petal for B. But that should not be an argument here as we both know that Rain is the worst, but needed fastmana in Grinding Station.
On the other hand, they are incredible to reach CRs' Threshold and serving a huge amount of B in grinding long games.
Especially with your new integration of Rite of Flame (even though I seems like a one-off filler, justifiably, and -R / +2 storm wishtarget after boarding) I was thinking about running 1x Rain and a 2nd Rite instead. But I guess you spent much more testing on your list than me and already considered it.
Right now, having written this paragraph, however, I think it is actually true that the 2nd Rain is better after all :D

Rain of Filth is just insane. If it wasn't so bad with flashback, it'd easily be the best of the rituals. I think the worst one is Rite of Flame, which, just as you said, is just a filler, but I think that slot is necessary. I have another idea what to do with it, but I'll come to that later, at the end of this post.

It is actually so good with Ad Nauseam that Ari Lax included it in his new Ad Nauseam Tendrils list. Check out this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23757_Welcome_To_The_Dream_World.html) for reference. Turns out turn two threshed Cabal Rituals are really good. It really does make your Ad Nauseams way better.



Going through your current list, there are some aspects I'd love to hear more about:

Firstly, your protection-suit aka the division of discard spells. I can absolutely see Therapy's point with Probe and other discard spells, but why not just additional Duresses/Thoughtseizes in its slots? Of course, facing hands with multiple one-of-a-kind counter spells, Therapy turns to pure gold ripping 2 of them with just one spell. But why would your opponent let Therapy resolve having 2x FoWs in hand (if I remember your report correctly)? Is it just because people tend to hoping you do not know how to use it properly that you play it over other cc1 discard spells? Even if you were to play it to oppose pesky hate-bears like Thalia or Censor, wouldn't Thoughtseizes be just better (despite its life loss)?
Or did I just horribly miss any aspect of Cabal? :)
EDIT: Having read your reports a 2nd time, ever-present Thresh featuring Stifles is another reason for CT, right?

Cabal Therapy is almost as good as Orim's Chant concerning protection. Almost. As you already said, it's really good with Gitaxian Probe. Often, it forces people to do things they wouldn't do against other discard spells. Also, it solves the "two Forces with one other blue card"-issue. Just check out my report, there are a lot of scenarios where I won games with Therapy that I otherwise wouldn't have won.

Against decks like Maverick, you want to board out most of your discard. I tend to keep in two, so there's two Thoughtseizes.



Secondly, why are you not running the full playset Wishes? I often found myself stuck with a whole lot of acceleration with the old list, lacking business. Wish is just great in almost every situation as it may act not only as PiF or Tendrils but as an additional permission spell (given you run 1x Duress/TS/CT in our SB) or anti-hate as well (as you did it with Chain Lightning disposing of Teeg).

I rarely happen to be in situations where I lack business but have a lot of mana. You need way more acceleration than business, and Burning Wish is somewhat clunky. Having a discard spell in the sideboard was brought up often, but I didn't get to test it yet, nor did I ever feel like I needed it. Also, Burning Wish into Past in Flames isn't even that good of a play. I had several situations where I had a Burning Wish in hand but still couldn't go off, and that sucked. Maybe there should be a Diminishing Returns or even Time Spiral in the board. Other suggestions welcome. I also considered Cruel Bargain / Infernal Contract, but I don't have any of these lying around nor do I think they're actually good enough.



Thirdly, Grapeshot and Telemin Performance in our SB (never heard of Performance before, had to look it up :) ). Grapeshot never came to me as a good slot in wishboards. Cook is convinced that it is worth the slot for turning a non-lethal Tendrils to a lethal one and killing hate bears, however, I think of it mostly as win-more and a way of swanking about casting it for storm 20. To my mind, Infest should get that slot as it is higly capable of wiping the board against Maverick's hate-bears through a Mother and furthermore getting rid goblin tokens by Belcher and other storm builds and cleaning random boards to buy another turn or two. Ruin of Virtue is worse as one should not have any problems having access to 1BB and being just more specific as an additional down-side. Pyroclasm is just insufficient in that slot due to a Mother protecting the hatebear.
Am I right that Performance is only reasonable against opposing Storm builds (and to a lesser extent S&T decks)? Was it a meta call or do you really think it is worth a slot in an unknown enviroment?

Grapeshot you're right about. I never needed it so far, so it should be replaced with something that actually does something. If it's just about getting in some extra damage, Chain Lightning is usually enough.
Also, this is an entirely different animal than TES. Here you only have rituals, whereas in TES you have Chrome Moxen for acceleration which make it hard to reach storm ten without casting any engine spells. Therefore mini Tendrils, Burning Wish, Grapeshot is a much more reasonable play with TES. Nonetheless, it's mostly used for showboating (and I know that's fun, I used to play TES for some time as well).
If you're looking to kill multiple hatebears through Mother of Runes you should also take equipment into account. It's easy to pump a Gaddock Teeg with Umezawa's Jitte in reponse to Infest, whereas Virtue's Ruin just wipes the board. Much more reliable, and therefore better in my eyes.

Telemin Performance is mostly there for the storm matchups, yes. It's an "I win"-button against most of them, and especially those with Chants can be really tough to beat. High Tide sees a reasonable amount of play in my area, so having something for that matchup is really good, although I managed to dodge it so far (luckily, I like having time to eat between rounds). It can also be pretty good against Reanimator. I wouldn't cut it in an unknown meta, it's pretty good.




The only reason I would shave on the count of rain of filth is because I ALWAYS seem to draw both of them when playing this deck :mad: without a brainstorm to shuffle one away. It also seems less effective with 15 land in Jona's current list, if you have just 3 lands it's a dark ritual sure I adore the card when I have 4+ lands because it's black lotus for black mana and the interaction with cabal ritual is insane with that many lands you're practically guaranteed threshold.

For some reason, I always draw much more land than anybody else. Right now I can only remember two games I lost to not having enough lands, and in one of those my opponent had Life from the Loam going. But yeah, drawing both Rains sucks. The card is way too powerful to give up though, so I rather draw it often than never draw it twice.



Have you ever thought of running Dark Confidant in the SB Jona? I've thought about it, but it doesn't seem to fit anywhere. Although maybe I'm just trying to squeeze it in for the cabal therapy interaction it has, which is quite favorable for us for ripping an opponents hand apart. Also, has spell snare been an issue at all with the new list? That was the allure of the old list IMO, they could only snare cabal ritual and that was it.

I considered Confidant, and a friend actually tested them already. That was a while ago though, I don't really know if they're that good. I think they aren't though, as they can be really bad against Canadian Thresh. You can't really afford spending a ritual or a Lotus Petal on casting Confidant, so you have to wait at least until your second turn to cast it. Then consider Daze and take Spell Snare into account and you will never come up with a reasonable situation to play it.

I wanted to try out one or maybe even two Snapcaster Mages though. I think those can be really strong, especially now with Cabal Therapy. Could replace the Rite of Flame. In theory, the only downside is that Snapcaster Mage only works when you already cast some rituals, but eh. You'd use it to flash back rituals most of the time anyway and get a free Cabal Therapy out of the deal. Seems cool, but maybe too cool.

Speaking of Mage; Spell Snare. It's not too much of an issue with Burning Wishes. You board them out against decks with Spell Snares and that's it. This might slightly reduce your game one win percentage against Canadian Threshold, but it helps against almost every other deck. Although I must admit that maybe I wouldn't run them if I was playing in the US. I don't really know how the UW Stoneblade matchup is with the current list, as that deck sees almost no play over here anymore.

I hope I answered all questions now. If I left out something, just let me know. I'm also looking if I can finally rewrite the opening post within the next few days.

[Wombo Combo]

Hello, I've been a source "lurker" for the past a year now. I've been playing vintage for about 2 years and legacy for about 1.5 years now. Unfortunately, there are not any tournaments in my area unless I drive 3 hours. I was very happy when I heard that scg would be coming to Sacramento because that is only an hour drive from my house. I could not decide what to play for this tournament. I considered dredge and TES, but I could never get a list that felt solid until I tried Grinding Station. This is the list I played:

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

2 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Past in Flames
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress

//Sideboard

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infest
1 Meltdown

I would probably not change anything about the list if I were to play in the same tournament again. I ended up in 12th place at 5-2-0 for the day, but all of my match losses were due to misplays :laugh:. The maindeck beats most of the blue decks in the format easily. The sideboard was mostly for aggro matchups because this deck has trouble going off before turn 3/4. Other than counterbalance, decks with discard + surgical can be a problem for the deck. My solution was to board out 3 PIF + 1 Tendrils and put in 4 Burning wish. I used every card in my sideboard that day except for infest, but this was only because I drew the Chain for his Teeg anyways.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Hi there! Cool to see people pick up my deck (=
Although your list is much more similar to the first versions than the most recent ones. How did you like all the cantrips? That seems somewhat excessive; even with the nine I'm running right now I often draw more of them than I'd like to have. Also, why did you run the full set of Past in Flames? You almost never want to have more than one in my experience.

What decks did you play against? I'm very interested in your experience since so far only myseld and some friends have played the deck in tournaments (as far as I know, that is).

[OurSerratedDust]

Someone got 12th with Grinding Station at SCG Sacramento!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44904

I'm glad this awesome deck finally caught on!

[Wombo Combo]

Hi there! Cool to see people pick up my deck (=
Although your list is much more similar to the first versions than the most recent ones. How did you like all the cantrips? That seems somewhat excessive; even with the nine I'm running right now I often draw more of them than I'd like to have. Also, why did you run the full set of Past in Flames? You almost never want to have more than one in my experience.

What decks did you play against? I'm very interested in your experience since so far only myseld and some friends have played the deck in tournaments (as far as I know, that is).


Hi there! Cool to see people pick up my deck (=
Although your list is much more similar to the first versions than the most recent ones. How did you like all the cantrips? That seems somewhat excessive; even with the nine I'm running right now I often draw more of them than I'd like to have. Also, why did you run the full set of Past in Flames? You almost never want to have more than one in my experience.

What decks did you play against? I'm very interested in your experience since so far only myseld and some friends have played the deck in tournaments (as far as I know, that is).

The reason I went up to the full set of cantrips is because it makes it really easy to find lands early and it makes finding the tendrils easy if you resolve PIF. At least three times in the tournament I was able to go off with PIF and just find tendrils by flashing back all of my cantrips in the graveyard. This deck kind of reminds me of the vintage deck TPS. Turns 1-3 you sculpt your hand with cantrips. Then, turn 3-4 you resolve a bomb (PIF) and draw a bunch of cards with it until you can win (find tendrils). Of course you can just draw the tendils naturally. Usually I can get rid of extra cards I don't need with brainstorm. I wanted the deck to be really consistent, so that's why there are 4 PIF. I can do a report, but I didn't take very good notes:

Round 1: UW Stoneblade

Game1: I remember that he plays a stoneforge on turn 2 or 3 and searches for Sword of Feast and Famine. I am able to go off before he gets a swing in.

Game2: I didn't board in anything. He mulls to 5 and opens with turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity :eek:. I consider playing the game out to see what other hate he brought in but decide that there might not be enough time.

Game 3: I board in my chain of vapors this game. I keep my 7 and he mulls to 6. Around turn 3 I probe him and see flusterstorm, but I have the duress to stip it from his hand.

2-1
1-0

Round 2: Esper Stoneblade

Game 1: I don't remember much from this game other than I won.

Game 2: I don't board in any cards. I don't remember much from this game either other than he has a hand full of countermagic and I have duress+probe+cabal.

4-1
2-0

Round 3: GW Aggro with Squadron Hawk

Game 1: He has a couple creatures that are beating me down. Luckly I had the double tendrils this game.

Game 2: I board like this: +1 Ad Nauseam +1 Ill-Gotten Gains +4 Burning Wish +4 Infernal tutor -3 Tendrils of Agony -3 PIF -4 Duress. He has turn 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. He lands another threat turn 3. I find burning wish, but it is a turn too late and I die to his creatures.

Game 3: I board in the Chain of vapors for this game. This was the first match I threw by misplays. He mulls to 4 looking for hate and it looks like the game is easily mine. For some reason I forget that I have a land in my hand and try to go off with rituals + infernal tutor. I stop after the first 2 rituals, but now he has landed a threat. After a couple turns he finds Sword of Fire and Ice and my life total is shrinking fast. I again misplay by not using chain of vapor on his hawk at EOT. I try to go off as I am likely dead next turn but I'm unable to get hellbent. I keep playing cantrips into more cantrips and lands instead of mana. In the end I have to get rid of the chain of vapor from my hand, but that leaves me one mana short of Infernal tutor for Tendrils.

2-1
5-3

Round 4: Affinity

Game 1: He doesn't know what I'm playing so he keeps a slow hand with tezzeret. This lets me build a lethal hand with ease.

Game 2: I board +1 Ad Nauseam +1 Ill-Gotten Gains +4 Burning Wish +4 Infernal tutor -3 Tendrils of Agony -3 PIF -4 Duress again. This time he mulls to 6 and keeps a fast hand. I have the turn 2 Burning Wish for Meltdown, but he attacks me to 1 the following turn :eek:. I wrath his board leaving only darksteel citadel and I combo out with Ill-Gotten Gains a few turns later.

3-1
7-3

Round 5: UBG Tempo (Bob/Delver/Stifle/Goyf)

Game 1: He mulls to 4 and opens with trop into delver. He starts beating me with it and I have to go off or he'll kill me. I am one storm short of killing him outright because I have the tendrils. His hand is daze, daze, bob. All I have to do is bait him to use a daze. I storm up to 7 with ritual effects and then play cabal therapy. He thinks for a long time and decides to daze. I play tenrils for storm 10 and he is not too happy.

Game 2: I don't board in anything this time. He opens with delver on turn one. Flip delver on turn 2 and play bob. This is going to be a race. I have tenrils again, but this time he doesn't fall for the trap and I get him to 3 life. Two turns later bob reveals vendilion clique :cool:.

4-1
9-3

Round 6: RUG Tempo

Game 1: I don't remember much about this game other than I won.

Game 2: This is the game I threw by a misplay. I go off with PIF and he surgicals my dark rituals. This is ok because I have 2 cabal rituals and LED. I forgot to add the 3 mana from LED to my pool when I sacked it, so when I go to flashback my cabal rituals I don't have enough mana :cry:.

Game 3: This match was on camera. He has the turn 3 CB/Top lock. He knows to leave a cmc 1 on top and I can't do anything.

4-2
10-5

Round 7: GW Maverick

Game 1: I keep a slow hand and he knows I'm on storm from the previous match. He has the turn 3 GSZ->Teeg and I scoop.

Game 2: I board like this: +1 Ad Nauseam +1 Ill-Gotten Gains +4 Burning Wish +4 Infernal tutor +3 Chain of Vapor -3 Tendrils of Agony -3 PIF -4 Duress -2 Cabal Ritual -1 Gitaxian Probe. I don't remember which hate bear he plays, but I have the chain for it anyways. I win with Iggy loop.

Game 3: I keep the same board. My opening hand is the nuts: Sea, Delta, ritual, LED, LED, Infernal, chain. He plays turn one mother and I play turn one ad nauseaum :smile:.

5-2
12-6

I should have done more playtesting before I took it to a tournament. I found out playing storm for 7 rounds can be a little taxing on the brain. Overall, it was a good day.

[murkymercy]

Taking Grinding Station to my local legacy tournament today, will report back on any interesting conclusions :cool:

[gamer4life]

Taking Grinding Station to my local legacy tournament today, will report back on any interesting conclusions :cool:

So how did it go?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Just dropping by to say that I finished third in a BoM-trial this past weekend (second after swiss). My only losses were against a Reanimator player (0-2 twice), other than that I won everything 2-0. Seems solid.


4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
2 Rain of Filth

1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

3 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Past in Flames
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Rite of Flame
3 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize

//Sideboard
1 Ad Nauseam
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Chain Lightning
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Infest
1 Past in Flames
1 Telemin Performance
1 Tendrils of Agony

This is the list I played. Infest over Virtue's Ruin because I got home at 6 AM (I had to get up at 9 AM) and didn't even try to get one. Didn't make a difference, but usually Virtue's Ruin is better. Telemin Performance is awesome by the way.

[randomly.anonymous]

I suppose Telemin Performance is for those combo mirrors/sneakshow?

[Dark Ritual]

I suppose Telemin Performance is for those combo mirrors/sneakshow?

It sounds hilarious against reanimator as well, although that's basically a lottery you can strike gold (jin-gitaxias and Iona come to mind as being sweet ones). Against combo, it's basically a wishable ad nauseam that costs blue instead of black and always wins upon resolution, provided your opponent lacks bob/xantid swarm/creatures.

I'm tempted to play this deck again, just to try out the new list with burning wishes. At least wish makes LED really good game 1, whereas in the old lists it could only really be used with past in flames.

Also would like a chance to use my cabal therapies, I haven't used mine in forever and using them with probe seems dirty. I also like to snipe with them, as a skill tester.

[gamer4life]

Jona,have you ever played The Epic Storm? Lately iv found myself losing more to bad luck and not so much my opponents. Do you ever have the same problem with The Grinding station?

[murkymercy]

Ok here are some (very) delayed conclusions. I played against Bg Pox (2-1), Junk (2-1) and Goblins (0-2), each time bringing in the Ad Nauseam package. Which brings up my main sticking point with the deck, I don't like that boarding strategy. The reason I played this over TES was I died to Ad Nauseam too many times and wanted a Tendrils deck that didn't use AN as its engine. But post board this plays much like a TES deck that isn't as good at winning from AN. Maybe I'll try out some Dread of Nights and Infests to combat the aggro decks instead of trying to race them with Ad Nauseam. Or maybe I'll just wait til I've got better with DDFT :tongue:.

The deck played out really well apart from that, very consistent due to so many cantrips and had little problem finding business preboard.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Jona,have you ever played The Epic Storm? Lately iv found myself losing more to bad luck and not so much my opponents. Do you ever have the same problem with The Grinding station?

I used to play TES back in late 2010 / early 2011. I played both Bryant's and Max McCall's list. So yeah, postboard, this deck is very similar to the latter. Most of my opponents think that I'm playing TES, which is also the reason why I often hear people complaining about me naturally drawing the single Tendrils I have (=

Anyway, what do you mean by bad luck? And also, about which deck are you talking here? In the last four tournaments I played I picked up six losses, two against Reanimator, three against Dredge and one against Maverick. I know that Dredge is a bad matchup (especially LED-Dredge). Reanimator, well. I have a slightly negative record so far, but it should be a bad matchup I think. The loss against Maverick certainly was unfortunate, but I'd say it's variance rather than bad luck. I can't win everything, right?



Ok here are some (very) delayed conclusions. I played against Bg Pox (2-1), Junk (2-1) and Goblins (0-2), each time bringing in the Ad Nauseam package. Which brings up my main sticking point with the deck, I don't like that boarding strategy. The reason I played this over TES was I died to Ad Nauseam too many times and wanted a Tendrils deck that didn't use AN as its engine. But post board this plays much like a TES deck that isn't as good at winning from AN. Maybe I'll try out some Dread of Nights and Infests to combat the aggro decks instead of trying to race them with Ad Nauseam. Or maybe I'll just wait til I've got better with DDFT :tongue:.

The deck played out really well apart from that, very consistent due to so many cantrips and had little problem finding business preboard.

The most important question is this: In what kind of metagame are you playing the deck? This deck was built to beat the blue decks of the format while not losing to random shit. If people don't play blue decks in your metagame, just go play TES or ANT. You might also win against Dredge then haha

You should play some games against RUG Tempo, Esperblade and Maverick, then take it to a bigger event. This is the kind of metagame where Grinding Station shines, and there the boarding plan makes sense. Nonetheless, I thought about the Dread of Night thing as well. I rarely go off with Ad Nauseam anyway (even postboard), but I do use Infernal Tutor to go off with Past in Flames from time to time. It's just that the Ad Nauseam plan is also good outside of the Maverick matchup, whereas Dread of Night isn't. I think I'm going to try that out at some point, but I don't think it's actually better.

Edit: Also, I don't see how you're going to win against Nic Fit without Ad Nauseam / Infernal Tutor in the deck. That's a matchup I often have to play against and one of the main reasons why I'm sticking to my current sideboard. Affinity can also race you occasionally.

[der_agibert]

Hey,
to begin with, my current deck list:

-

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
2 Rain of Filth

1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

4 Burning Wish
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Past in Flames
3 Preordain
2 Ponder
3 Tendrils of Agony
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress

SB: 1 Ad Nauseam
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Chain Lightning
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

-

Concerning the Ponder/Preordain split, I'm still not entirely sure. The set-up character of T1 and 2 Preordain is amazing but, to my mind, when it comes to going off Ponder just has the advantage of digging 1 card deeper. Right now, I am pretty satisfied with my distribution but I can absolutely see the point of running 4/1.

I was never a great fan of Thoughtseize as in quite a few cases the 2 life loss actually is relevant. Aiming to go the PiF or 8 vs. 7 route (for example against UR(G) Delver or other decks featuring early pressure and a good pile of countermagic / disruption), I often found myself having been dealt quite some damage while dropping lands and cantripping / sculpting. Playing Probe for U is certainly not something that sounds too desireable and fetching always costs 1 life, so I actually think we, as a deck that uses its life total as a time ressource, already feature enough spells feasting on us. Additionally, the only relevant cards I can think about right now that won't be ripped by IoK are FoW and Mindbreak Trap (maybe Sneak Attack, too). All the rest is covered by IoK's cc3, I think: Stifles, Pierces, Daze, Counterbalance, GSZ, Thalia, Teeg, heavy damage-dealing little critters...
Maybe I forgot something crucial here but during my games I never felt the 2 life loss justified for ripping something IoK could have gotten rid of as well. In some cases, when going for casting 9 spells and Tendrils without any engine, a bad timed opponent's FoW actually won me the game by rising the storm account to lethal, so a random Force is not too scary for me anyway and can be easily played around.
Furthermore, I also run 2 Duress and 2 Therapies so I guess even going for one "big spell" (i.e. PiF or Wishing for Tendrils/PiF) that needs to be protected seems pretty manageable for me.

I am a huge fan of Burning Wishes in Grinding Station (already featured the reasons in my last post) and am very comfortable running the whole playset. Another thing I have not mentioned before is our ANT-like boarding plan in games 2 and 3:
We board this way for the sake of just being faster than any opposing stuff like GSZ into Thalia or Teeg or too much damage during the first few turns. Going this way, we need business spells and we need them fast. Of course, that's what the IT are for, nothing new here. B-Wish is a business spell, too, but to a great lesser extend. That's because there are no SB soceries that end the game just by having enough mana to cast them (T. Peformance, as already stated, does not strike against every deck here). I think that is one aspect you slightly mentioned before, Jona, talking about Infernal Contract and Dimishing Returns. We may Wish into PiF which is pointless as B-Wish unfortunately exiles itself leaving us with lethal storm but without a way to get Tendrils. We may wish for Empty the Warrens which may result in 10 Gobbos losing to a stoneforged Batterskull or just some random blockers, nothing what we want either.
My justification for running the 4th Wish is the fact that it is able to get an Infernal Tutor, too, given that there is one left in the SB of course. Infernal here gets us our aimed-for Ad Nauseam, therefore being able to actually end the game immediately. Being annoyed and frustrated by these scenarios, I have begun leaving one IT in my SB for this reason, still running 7 business spells with the 4th Wish. Sure, one might say that the move B-Wish into Infernal into AN / PiF is way too expensive with required 9 mana (10 mana in order to have a B left floating for post-AN Rituals ect.) and that is actually true and legit but the fact that it makes B-Wish lethal is worth it in my personal opinion. Furthermore, you may transform the Wish into a Tutor a turn before, thereby lessening the amount of mana needed to 7 which should be doable with a LED, I think.
I hope you see what I want to say with this paragraph. In a nutshell, take it as "I want a possibility to kill with a sole B-Wish!" :)
For this purpose, I have already considered Grim Tutor in the SB which would allow me to run all 4 IT main but it costs an additional B...
Have you never had this problem in g2 and g3? Does anyone know a better way to solve this (or, if not generally shared, maybe just my personal little) scenario?

One last thing about my list: I have never ever used the Chain Lightning in my SB. I just never needed it, neither to kill a single random hate bear nor to "raise" storm. Is it just me or might the slot be given to another card instead?

-

@ gamer4life + murkymercy: As I already mentioned, I run Grinding Station for exactly this reason over TES. Maybe I am just too stupid or not capable enough to play TES the proper way but as you say, I often found myself f*cked by my own deck and not by my opponent. Let's agree on calling it "consistency" rather than bad luck or a lack of skill. If you aim for consistency and your meta allows you to spend 2 or 3 turns on sculpting a reasonable hand and dropping lands (i.e. as Jona already pointed out a blue-based meta), Grinding Station is what you should prefer imho.
However, if you aim for (or simply like) exploding and going all-in turn 2 or you are simply forced so by your meta, TES is ours, I think.

Speaking about AN: I actually died only 2 times because of my own AN which was because I had to start it with 12 or 11 life due to early punches. In all other cases AN with B(X) floating was no greater problem, even though there are many situations you just can savely PiF for the win instead. I am pretty happy with the boarding strategy so far, which is one extremely important part of this deck's construction, and share Jona's opinion of AN's simple necessarity and brute force. You just have to realise that g2 and g3 you have the option (and sometimes you are forced) to run a different deck in fact, i.e a quick and reckless ANT/TES.

@ Dread of Night: Have not tested them but they do not seem too favourable. 1x kills Mothers and Thalia, yup, but (GSZ into) Teeg still stops you. You had to run 4 to have a realistic chance of drawing 2 of them in order to kill Teeg. But that is something our SB does not tolarates imho. Furthermore, random getting Quasali-ised one of them or seeing a sword getting equipped before your 2nd Dread lands is nothing you are too happy to see happen. 1 Virtue's Ruin always did the job for me quite well.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Chain Lightning has been pretty good for me. I used it to get rid of quite a few hatebears and players. Really, I don't think I'm going to change anything from my list, although I do like the idea of keeping one Infernal Tutor in the board. What I don't like about that is that you have to run four Burning Wishes, which tend to be rather bad in multiples. The alternative is cutting something from the board to include a Time Spiral or Diminishing Returns. I tested a list with Time Spiral and only got to cast it once, so I'm not sure about that. Also, I feel fine not having something for every single scenario one could possibly encounter.

I don't think it makes a huge difference whether you run a 3/2 Preordain/Ponder split or the full set of Preordains. Given the bad Dredge matchup, maybe 3/2 is actually better, as Ponder has a better chance of finding Surgical Extraction. By the way, when going off with Past in Flames, Preordain is superior to Ponder. This is pretty much always true when you have to play several cantrips during your combo turn. If it's only one Ponder is better though.

Also, how has Echoing Truth been for you? I think if I was going to play two-mana anti hate, I'd be running Sudden Shock again. That card is pretty good against Maverick.

[gamer4life]

@ Jona i was talking about TES/AdS. By bad luck i ment dieing to AdS and all the other inconcistoncies the deck has.

[BlueNevus]

What do you do against decks with discard post-board? Deadguy + BUG primarily...

I've been boarding into the IT/ADN package but would like to discuss options. The only way I could see the maindeck approach working is with Past in Flames, but if they bring in gravehate this route seems less enticing.

Also, Esperblade is much tougher than traditional U/W because of discard (Inquisition/Seize, sometimes Cabal Therapy (!) with lingering souls/snapcaster to sacrifice.) Have you guys been beating esperblade?

[Jonathan Alexander]

If they also have countermagic, I tend to just board out my Wishes for Past in Flames, Tendrils and Empty the Warrens. If they don't, bring in the Infernal Tutor package, as that has more draws that don't care about discard and more insane topdecks.

The Lingering Souls Blade lists aren't too bad. They neither have much countermagic nor much discard. I played against that deck last week and won 2-0. They have lots of dead cards game one and basically no way to deal with a natural Tendrils kill, unless they run Flusterstorm in the board. I think in this matchup, you can actually keep in Burning Wish. If they don't have Lingering Souls, they're likely to have more disruption instead, which is much worse. I like that those decks have a slow clock, so that gives you lots of time to set up.

[Wombo Combo]

I got top 4 in a 32 man tournament yesterday with this. I faced a lot of burn and U/R delver. I probably should have taken something faster (TES). Here is the list I played:


4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

2 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Past in Flames
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
3 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish

//Sideboard

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseum
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infest
1 Meltdown
1 Duress

Round 1: Burn (2-1)
Round 2: U/R Delver (2-1)
Round 3: Burn (1-2)
Round 4: U/R Delver (2-1)
Round 5: Draw
T8: Nic Fit (2-0)
T4: Burn (0-2)

I was not impressed with thoughtseize, but that could be because of all the burn I faced. Both of the U/R delver games I lost they had the turn one delver.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I really like the look of that list. You seem to be convinced that 16 cantrips is the way to go, so maybe I should try that out. I'm definitely going to squeeze in at least a single Rain of Filth though, that card has been absurd for me. I think I'm going to test this:

-1 Marsh Flats (Why did you play that?)
-1 Burning Wish
-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Rain of Filth
+1 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Cabal Therapy

/Slightly different sideboard, probably mine:

1 Ad Nauseam
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Extirpate
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Silent Departure
1 Telemin Performance
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Virtue's Ruin

Back to Silent Departure and Extirpate because of lots of Reanimator. The one issue I see with the 16 cantrips list is that you might sometimes be too slow, having to cast 3-4 cantrips to be able to go off. That rarely happens with my list, and I really like that. Being able to just sit back and wait is huge. The same is true with Burning Wish, you almost never want to draw multiples, at least in my experience. Has this never been an issue for you?

Also, nice finish. UR Delver is usually a pretty good matchup. As far as I remember, I only dropped a single tournament match against it so far. But turn one Delver of Secrets is pretty much the only way they can win, yeah. Why did you lose against burn though? That matchup is really easy, you can easily buy multiple turns with a mini-Tendrils (about the only matchup where this is good). Them having creatures obviously makes it a bit worse, but it's still a very good play. Burn is a matchup I really like to play, it's easy and the games don't take long so I can get some food.

[Wombo Combo]

I played the marsh flats because I don't own Bloodstained Mire. I lost in the swiss to burn because g3 he had a faerie macabre that cut me off from Iggy. I went for Ad Nauseam from 8 life and died. In the T4 game one: I could have done a mini-tendrils, but thought I had one more turn. Turns out I didn't have another turn. In game two, I was a turn away from the Iggy loop, but he top decked the bolt for the win. I haven't played the matchup much so it might just be I'm not playing correctly. I really like the 16 cantrips because it synergises with Past in Flames. Do you usually save your cantrips for the combo turn? I usually use them on turns 1-3 and try to combo on turn 4. I could see drawing multiple wishes being an issue. The only time I had multiple wishes in the tournament was against U/R delver. That worked out fine because I just played one to get rid of a soft counter. The duress in the side was going to be ETW, but I accidentally left it at home.

[yutang]

How would this deck change with the new Wheel of Fortune - it seems to fit well into this deck

[Vacrix]

Reforge the Soul could work in here.. but the protection isn't really congruent with Reforge as an engine; you need Chant effects unless you want them drawing into a Force and just stopping you mid spell chain. One dude on the stormboards mentioned a list that plays 4 Silence as protection and has a pretty consistent turn 2-3 kill with Reforge as the primary engine (not including IT/BW/PiF). Not to share his list.. but you guys might want to try running Reforge the Soul.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I tried it already. The day it was spoiled, I tested it as a boarding plan for the non-blue matchups, over Ad Nauseam. It sucked, even with more red rituals. I thought it was less restrictive than Ad Nauseam, letting me keep in more Tendrils, but in fact it was even worse. Chaining them seems pretty hard without lots of red rituals, but casting Tendrils off lots of red rituals seems like a bad plan. Whatever.

Also, still didn't get to test the 16 cantrips list. Maybe next week or so.

[spacecaptain]

Im looking to learn how to play combo in legacy and this deck looks like a great starting point. I have sleeved it up and goldfished a bit, but never seem to be able to reliably storm for 20. I'm sure its because I dont understand all the interactions between the cards in this deck. Jona, have you recorded any of your games playing this deck? I'd love to see what the typical lines of play are.

[Dark Ritual]

Im looking to learn how to play combo in legacy and this deck looks like a great starting point. I have sleeved it up and goldfished a bit, but never seem to be able to reliably storm for 20. I'm sure its because I dont understand all the interactions between the cards in this deck. Jona, have you recorded any of your games playing this deck? I'd love to see what the typical lines of play are.

You can't goldfish this deck, I've tried and the only way to get lethal storm with the original build is via past in flames unless you save your cantrips and are able to get to storm ten that way. Having a real opponent is nice, as they will play spells during your turn to interact with your cards.

[Grizzly_Bear]

These decklists from the last couple of weeks have changed quite a bit from the original one in the OP, i.e + burning wish and less past in flames maindeck. Also, no empty the warrens maindeck anymore.

Just wondering if you guys still play the deck in the same way as before, meaning that the primary plan is to do nothing for 3-4 turns, then go off with a 8-card hand against whatever your opponent has?

Or have you begun playing it more aggressively like UBr ANT?

[Wombo Combo]

With the list I use (16 cantrips), I play my cantrips on turns 1-3 and try to win on turn 4. Sometimes you can win on turn 3, but usually that's only a good idea if your opponent is going to kill you the next turn.

[Vacrix]

How often do you guys go for mini-Tendrils to bide your time? Access to so many copies of Past in Flames seems to secure the win for you given that you'll have your graveyard to go off with, at least the builds that are running 3 PiF.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Im looking to learn how to play combo in legacy and this deck looks like a great starting point. I have sleeved it up and goldfished a bit, but never seem to be able to reliably storm for 20. I'm sure its because I dont understand all the interactions between the cards in this deck. Jona, have you recorded any of your games playing this deck? I'd love to see what the typical lines of play are.

I don't play on MTGO, so there are no videos. What Dark Ritual said is mostly right though, you can't really goldfish this deck, but not for the reasons he stated. If you want to learn the deck, play against Canadian Threshold a lot. It's a good matchup, but only if you play well. It teaches you to read your opponents and, since they have an actual clock, gives you a good feeling for when to go off. Also, they can interact with pretty much anything you can do, which teaches you to play around multiple things. Them having a multitude of (soft-)counters also gives you a good sense how to sequence your spells.

It's also important to know when to go off against Maverick of Stoneblade. Usually you should avoid getting hit with equipment. The postboard plan is the one you can more or less reasonably goldfish, but that's not hard. Still, goldfishing them is what you're looking to do most of the time.

Regarding cantrips, I almost never cast Gitaxian Probes before my combo turn, but that depends on how I'm looking to go off. They're crucial for regular storm chains, so you should hold onto them. If you're looking to go off with Past in Flames or Ad Nauseam though, you can cast them to be faster.

The other cantrips depend. I like to keep at least one of them for my combo turn (preferably a Brainstorm), but excess copies get cast early. Note that Burning Wish can count as a cantrip, if you're only looking to use it for +1 storm. Again, this is only true if you're going for the naural storm ten kill, which I do most of the time.

Mini Tendrils, almost never. I don't remember using it even once over the last few tournaments. It's still reasonable against UR Delver and Burn though. I tend to play very aggressively with Empty the Warrens though. Whenever I open it, I try to go for it turn one.

I'd like to see how the metagame shakes out after AVR though - I think Grinding Station might not be the best deck in the format anymore, and that sucks because it was so easy to win with it. I think it depends on how much people are willing to beat combo with Maverick and if people are running Thunderous Wrath. That card is pretty good, although the downside of being quasi-sorcery is nice for combo players.

[Sloshthedark]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8191&iddeck=59740

interesting PiF-hybrid using Manamorphose, I'd squeeze in Probes and some number of Tendrils, so you can kill from hand more often and dig efficiently after PiF

-why was initial idea of multiple PiF in Grinding Station abandoned? I play 2 in regular Ant and its great

[Patrunkenphat7]

This deck looks interesting, and it may be SIMILAR to what I am playing. My list is very different, but I will share.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

SB
1 Tropical Island
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dread of Night
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

I have played TES, ANT, and High Tide in quite a few tournaments, and I can easily say that this Storm list works best for me. I don't choose to draw with this deck (like I see it says in the OP). I don't play a set of Tendrils. I find that the deck is too slow with more than 1 Tendrils, and you have enough Storm with the Tutor loop which is more consistent anyways. Playing the Grims gives you both more Tendrils and more Past in Flames and I think 2-3 Grim Tutor is optimal in this deck. So I don't know if my list actually qualifies as "Grinding Station," but it seems similar enough.

For me this deck plays better than ANT against anything other than fast combo decks like Belcher. Even in the ANT "mirror" you are often able to win on attrition in the discard war, but it is a coinflip if your opponent is good. Having the Empty the Warrens in the deck really helps in some matchups, and having the option to turn 1 12+ goblins after you Probe and assess the situation is very good. Don't underestimate Cabal Therapy + goblin tokens; that has won me many games.

Change the SB to suit your needs. I like the Xantid Swarms because they are a necessary evil against Show and Tell. I would say 80% of my Show and Tell opponents bring in Leyline of Sanctity, so I always board in the Swarms as well as the Echoing Truth, and that helps trump the Leylines. Otherwise, you are going to have to make some goblins blind and pray, and that usually doesn't work out... This combo deck is slow like ANT, so I like the Surgicals for Tin Fins, Reanimator, and TES.

The list is very tuned; I play a lot of Legacy locally, and travel occasionally (top 8ed a Legacy GP, 9th at the last SCG Invitational, just trying to prove I have a little experience :) ). I am always changing the SB based on which way the wind is blowing in the metagame, and the 2 slots I mess with are the 1 Thoughtseize main (which used to be a 3rd Therapy) and 1 Preordain main (which could be a 3rd Grim, but sometimes you need more discard...). Please test it, and let me know what you think!

[Jonathan Alexander]

Your list is rather similar to the newer lists we played. I didn't get to play much in general lately and mostly played Team America or BURG, but a friend of mine has been rather succesful with this list:

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei's Divning Top

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

//Sideboard
1 Helm of Awakening
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Burning Wish
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

Personally, I don't like the Leyline package and prefer to have two Ad Nauseams in the board (it's nice to have a way to go off with few resources against BUG decks and it's also better in combo mirrors in my opinion). Other than that, the deck is pretty strong. I'm kind of working on a new list though and might end up sharing it after Bazaar.

[P-E]

I guess it's Helm of obedience instead of awakening no ?

[Jin Gitaxias]

Does anyone have an up to date list for this deck? Thanks!

[sawatarix]

It's helm of obedience + balck leyline.

I can also imagine to put ad nauseam in the sideboard and swap the deck postboard into Ant against some archetypes


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Does anyone have an up to date list for this deck? Thanks!

The list is still the same, the board differs though.

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
1 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Rain of Filth
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
2 Past in Flames
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Dread of Night
1 Burning Wish
2 Krosan Grip
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Swamp

[sawatarix]

I don't really get the burning wish in the sideboard ,what is the reason behind it?


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Tom T]

I don't really get the burning wish in the sideboard ,what is the reason behind it?


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Surgical Extraction

[flrn]

You can also bring it in, when you board in Ad Nauseam for the faster matchups to swap another cmc 4 card for a cmc 2 card.

[sawatarix]

What happened with the 4 Burning Wish build,which seems to be grinding stations origin


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[sawatarix]

Sry for double posting,

Are there any good finished in the last couple of months with this deck?
Are there any changes or anything new to this deck?

[Madsk]

Closest to my mind would be Pascal's MKM victory in Rome

[Reagens]

Closest to my mind would be Pascal's MKM victory in Rome

2 more lists at Praag
http://www.pragueeternal.com/prague-eternal-previous/pe-2015-1st-121314-june/pe-2015-1st-saturday-legacy.html

And again Pascal Wagner so I'm guessing Rome was no coincidence ;)

[kkkant]

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17543&iddeck=132038

Two "Grinding Station" at Lille's top16.

[MScott]

why is it called grinding station?

[mistercakes]

Cuz it's grindy.

[MScott]

Cuz it's grindy.

fair enough

[MScott]

4x Infernal Tutor
1x Dark Petition
2x Past in Flames
2x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
1x Chrome Mox
3x Preordain
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
3x Duress
2x Thoughtseize
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Wipe Away
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Swamp
1x Island


Sideboard (15):
1x Karakas
2x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Hope of Ghirapur
1x Spell Pierce
1x Flusterstorm
1x Chain of Vapor
3x Echoing Truths
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Massacre
1x Thoughtseize


Ive been playing this list, which I guess qualifies as Grinding Station. I have found that green tends to be unecessary and just adds in too much variance, as well as succeptibility to wasteland which is prominent in my meta. I aslo found that I never seem to want to take a creature of thoughtseize, and am considering just using duress. When do people bring in Ad Nauseam? I have tried bringing it in against other combo decks and decks like lands which are combo/prison, but really do not find it effective, and would rather play like nights whispers or even Echo of Eons honestly.

[JackaBo]

If you TS and they have Fluster Snappy dont you take snappy? Vs DnT T1 Thoughtseize take thalia is very strong.