How's about unban?

[Backseat_Critic]

There's been a lot of talk of bannings, specifically Brainstorm.

I personally don't agree with the sentiment, but I'm not exactly the guy with his finger on the pulse of the format.

I rarely play any tournaments. In fact, I hardly get to play legacy much at all any more since moving out of the US.

I just think it's the most fun format in magic, and I'm all about playing games to have a good time. (I also prefer to win)

To me, legacy is most fun when the format is diverse. Thus, I agreed with the banning of Survival (and Flash), but I still think Misstep could have been given more time. (Opinions, flame if you want)

What about unbanning stuff? I'll cast a controversial die and go with Library of Alexandria. I think the thing that keeps it banned is the price, which would likely go through the roof in the event of unbanning. I also don't feel that is a good reason to ban something. I just feel like it would be too slow and durdle around too much for the current legacy format. I bet it would be fun to brew with though. Just a thought.

Full disclosure, I do not own, nor have ever owned a Library.

There's even less overpowered stuff on the list too, like Land Tax and Mind Twist.

We all take turns nut punching each other over what should be banned, but no one ever stops and takes a moment to appreciate.

The fact is we're going to play this format regardless of wizards' choices for the banned list. We're going to do this because legacy is awesome, and magic is awesome. In general, I'd say they do a pretty good job of keeping the format fun and diverse.

Isn't that why we play?

If you have a minute, check out this article (no legacy, no deck lists). It's nice to recage now and then.

http://www.blackborder.com/q/node/13470

Unban Library, or don't!

[DragoFireheart]

To me, legacy is most fun when the format is diverse. Thus, I agreed with the banning of Survival (and Flash), but I still think Misstep could have been given more time. (Opinions, flame if you want)


Your words fall on deaf ears.

[Cthuloo]

I second the OP's sentiment. I definitely want to see more unbannings, many cards on the banlist seem safe enough to deserve at least a 3-months shot in the format. It could also be a way to shake up the format, and may work better than banning stuff.
As for Library: it also feels pretty much safe to me, but the price tag is already rediculous, and the day after they unban it, it will reach $500 apiece.

[Gheizen64]

Alexandria is not a broken cards by today's standards, but it just cost too much for it to be even ever considered.

[SpikeyMikey]

Alexandria is not a broken cards by today's standards, but it just cost too much for it to be even ever considered.

QFT. Speculators would drive the prices nuts. And the number of decks that would want it is infitesimally small. Although it would be interesting as a 4-of in Stax. But then, you can say that about a lot of cards that don't make an impact ;)

[Fuzzy]

I don't know how much abusive it would be, but I would really like if Worldgorger Dragon was unbanned.

[leegoo]

Worldgorger - If you played when the combo was around the first time, you'll see that it was banned because the DCI doesn't want games to be ended in infinite loop stalls if the deck is floundering. In Vintage it's acceptable but in Legacy it would piss a lot of people off. Reanimator is fine.

Land Tax - Draw 3 cards per turn while thinning your deck of lands and making yourself immune to wasteland all for 1 mana. This card should never be unbanned in Legacy.

Mental Misstep - No. It didn't do what it was intended to do and warped the format. Goblins for example should NOT be playing 4 maindeck counters (and actually require it to be competitive).

Mind Twist, Earthcraft (the combo isn't overly broken by legacy standards and plus... squirrels!) and arguably Library could come off pretty easily.

However, I do think Library would see a pretty significant amount of play if unbanned, there are quite a few durdle control decks (MonoU, Landstill, some of the Blade decks for example) that wouldn't mind it. It would give decks other than dredge incentive to be on the draw as well...

Just my thoughts. Maybe they should just unban everything (non power at least) and see what happens ;) (Go Go Academy?)

[Final Fortune]

Land Tax is fine compared to Life from the Loam and I think Mind Twist and Black Vice aren't as dangerous as they once were, cards like Earthcraft are a joke and never should've been on the list to begin with, and I think the really interesting cards to play with would be cards like Mind's Desire, Memory Jar, Channel, Fastbond, Hermit Druid, Goblin Recruiter or Gush, something that's potentially powerful but not necessarily broken that'd open up design space.

[dontbiteitholmes]

If they unban Dragon they need to add to the rules that if one player starts an infinite loop that can't be broken they lose. It's just as simple as that.

They don't need to unban Library, even if it was a $5 card it could get stupid as a potential 4x. Don't forget Loam fills the hand pretty quick and Library is a land. Not saying it's OMG broken, but it's potentially pretty good for something that's never been tested to just be written off as no big deal. Library is pretty strong on the draw as well, especially when you are going to have it in hand 4x as often as in Vintage, just saying.

Land Tax is just as bad a card today as it's ever been, no one cares about getting basic lands in their hand and that Parfait deck was never great to begin with even in Extended. Unban this shitty card already, it's a mockery to the ban list.

Leave Misstep banned and print a fixed version that doesn't hit perms, problem solved.

Earthcraft is meh. It gets worse every set. The only 2 concerns is it might make Enchantress 5% better than it is now and it might make Elves better. As an Enchantress player I can say it probably wouldn't matter for that deck. By the time we could get any combo with Earthcraft online we would probably win the game anyways, the only real bump it gives to the deck is making Argothians and tokens untap Wild Growthed lands but I personally don't even know if I'd run it since it seems like a win more card. For Elves they already have an engine that taps elves for mana and is tutorable so I don't think it would make too much difference there. I say unban, Squirrelcraft is a terrible combo and is irrelevant.

Mindtwist and Black Vice I would leave banned simply because they are potentially good SB answers to control and control barely exists now anyways, so why make things worse for it. Also Vice could make Prison decks or Stasis viable and I doubt anyone wants that.

As far as the "talk" about banning BStorm, it's just that, talk. Goyf isn't banned, Show and Tell isn't banned, even though people "talked" about banning them all the time. I don't see any reason to worry about BStorm getting banned. Look at the poll, it's a crushing defeat, 76%+ say no.

[KobeBryan]

Mindtwist and Black Vice I would leave banned simply because they are potentially good SB answers to control and control barely exists now anyways, so why make things worse for it. Also Vice could make Prison decks or Stasis viable and I doubt anyone wants that.


Just because a deck is not prevalent, doesn't mean cards that beat it should be banned. That doesn't make any sense.

What makes a card bannable should be because it is warping the format, ie. MM, survival, bazaar of baghdad, and such. and even to an extent, brainstorm.

[(nameless one)]

We all know the two reasons why Land Tax is banned. Its because we all enjoy the discussion of unbanning it and this (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/122l):


There are other reasons some cards are banned; some cards cause logistic problems for tournament organizers running large tournaments. For example, some cards cause so many matches to run out of time that it can cause a strain on judging and tournament organization, and even force tournaments to finish outside of the normal tournament venue. We identify such cards by whether they actually caused such problems when they were tournament-legal.

Land Tax (Parfait.dec) was the reason why I got into Magic. I would love to see that card be legalized.

[Dreg]

God, just do not even think about unbanning Mind Twist! The card is not there because the dumb-as-fuck RitualRitualRitualTwist play which excites children so much. It is a random discard spell that requires just a single specific mana, easily splashable unlike the minor brother Hymn to Tourach. And in addition to that, Twist is a card that alne is abel to unbalance the game starting from turn 4 down to the end of the match. The player who is capable of casting a cc4 twist will more likely be the only one with cards in his hands. Just by having played a single card. Tourach is not so strong because he's not cumulative and requires a double B specific mana to be cast. Twist is the opposite.

And can you imagine a t2 tourach, followed by a t3 Twist? Thank you, come again, you have no hand. Let me rape you without chance of getting back from your knees.

[Gheizen64]

If they unban Dragon they need to add to the rules that if one player starts an infinite loop that can't be broken they lose. It's just as simple as that.

They don't need to unban Library, even if it was a $5 card it could get stupid as a potential 4x. Don't forget Loam fills the hand pretty quick and Library is a land. Not saying it's OMG broken, but it's potentially pretty good for something that's never been tested to just be written off as no big deal. Library is pretty strong on the draw as well, especially when you are going to have it in hand 4x as often as in Vintage, just saying.

Land Tax is just as bad a card today as it's ever been, no one cares about getting basic lands in their hand and that Parfait deck was never great to begin with even in Extended. Unban this shitty card already, it's a mockery to the ban list.

Leave Misstep banned and print a fixed version that doesn't hit perms, problem solved.

Earthcraft is meh. It gets worse every set. The only 2 concerns is it might make Enchantress 5% better than it is now and it might make Elves better. As an Enchantress player I can say it probably wouldn't matter for that deck. By the time we could get any combo with Earthcraft online we would probably win the game anyways, the only real bump it gives to the deck is making Argothians and tokens untap Wild Growthed lands but I personally don't even know if I'd run it since it seems like a win more card. For Elves they already have an engine that taps elves for mana and is tutorable so I don't think it would make too much difference there. I say unban, Squirrelcraft is a terrible combo and is irrelevant.

Mindtwist and Black Vice I would leave banned simply because they are potentially good SB answers to control and control barely exists now anyways, so why make things worse for it. Also Vice could make Prison decks or Stasis viable and I doubt anyone wants that.

As far as the "talk" about banning BStorm, it's just that, talk. Goyf isn't banned, Show and Tell isn't banned, even though people "talked" about banning them all the time. I don't see any reason to worry about BStorm getting banned. Look at the poll, it's a crushing defeat, 76%+ say no.

I've said this so many times... it's strange that WotC didn't do this already, it's a pretty simple and logical change and would remove a lot of "lolol we draw" situations in casual too. Plus i think worldgorger unbanned with no way to draw the game would be a fair deck.

[Octopusman]

I too played a Parfait a long time ago.

1) increase or remove game time limit
2) unban land tax, black vise, mental misstep
3) make me happy

[Malchar]

I think the only reason land tax is banned is because of all the shuffling. It really isn't too powerful. Sure you can draw 3 land each turn, but you also have to stay on 1 or 2 land to keep getting the trigger. Most legacy decks can run just fine at 2 or 3 land and will happily stay there to prevent you from continuing to use land tax.

I would be more upset about it being banned if it weren't for life from the loam, which serves a similar function and is much harder to disrupt.

The problem with banning mental misstep is that it makes it much harder to ever consider unbanning one drops like land tax or black vise. I think that if mental misstep weren't colorless or if it couldn't counter itself, then it would have been much more fair. This way, not every deck would want or be able to run misstep, which makes it less format-warping.

[Dark Ritual]

Removing the time limit in a sanctioned tournament isn't possible. If there were one lands player in the room, you could be looking at a 2 hour plus rounds if the opponent refused to concede.

WGD should definitely be unbanned and like Holmes said they should just add that to the rulings so you can't intentionally draw the game with WGD if you're going to lose.

Land tax can come off. Earthcraft I'm not positive about, combo elves could abuse that card hard potentially.

W/e on mind twist. The card isn't OMG BONKERS BROKEN like it is in cube.

Library of alexandria gives another draw engine to loam decks since it's a land. I could see it being ridiculous in loam decks as at least a tutorable one-of with KotR. It wouldn't do much if unbanned because of the supply issue associated with it. Not sure if this one is safe to come off in reality I don't think it's safe to come off due to the power level of the card. If people think brainstorm is good, library is arguably better than brainstorm due to it producing card advantage at the cost of a land drop that still produces colorless mana.

[brattin]

Someone, I don't remember who*, said that even if people are talking about banning brainstorm, it won't happen, because 75% of the people on this site voted to keep it.

That means nothing.

When they were talking about abolishing the reserve list, people came out of the woodwork in support of the idea. We talked about it for weeks, and made polls, and practically everyone said "Yes, I would love it if they reprinted dual lands with black borders." I was so excited. And then a week later Wizards says "Oh, we talked to lots of people about it, including secret panels of pros and people who work at SCG and whatever, and everyone said we should abolish the reserve list, so we decided that we will never print another card from the reserve list ever, even in a promotional setting."

I don't know if there's an equivalent to writing a letter to your local representative or not, but I basically think Wizards just hates players.

I mean, transform cards? Seriously?


*: simple laziness on my part, it was dontbiteitholmes.

[KevinTrudeau]

I'm pretty sure any combination of Mystical Tutor, Survival of the Fittest, and Mental Misstep (in addition to less potentially warping cards like Earthcraft and a few others I don't feel like going over) could be unbanned and make the format a bit more spry. However, I am of the mind that a laissez-faire mentality towards the banlist will benefit the format more than it will hurt it in the long run, so I am a bit biased.

Land Tax needs to stay banned; not for power reasons, but for Shahrazad reasons (though of a considerably lower magnitude, of course).

[mchainmail]

Worldgorger - If you played when the combo was around the first time, you'll see that it was banned because the DCI doesn't want games to be ended in infinite loop stalls if the deck is floundering. In Vintage it's acceptable but in Legacy it would piss a lot of people off. Reanimator is fine.


Would Worldgorger combo actually be playable or better than Reanimator?

I don't think it would even be played without Bazaar.

Turn 1 Black Vice in mono red burn is a huge beating for almost any deck, and is probably "too good" On the play, it will get in for 6 damage, maybe more depending on how the game plays out... and this is for a "fair" deck.

[leegoo]

Would Worldgorger combo actually be playable or better than Reanimator?

I don't think it would even be played without Bazaar.



Well, there's something to be said about being able to resolve your reanimate spell and not have to go through the formality of actually taking another turn or two... or (if not fixed) just taking a free game to start with a better opening 7. Get your Strategic Plannings now!

[DragoFireheart]

Unban all of these at the same time:


Goblin Recruiter
Survival of the Fittest
Earthcraft
Mental Misstep
Mystical Tutor


All of those legal at the same time should work each other out.

GR, EC and SotF avoid MMS, which allows the aggro player to be highly aggressive against blue decks.

MMS keeps MT in check.

GR, EC and SoTF could possibly make some aggro decks faster enough so they have a higher chance of beating combo decks game one. Along with MMS, aggro decks would have a better chance at fighting combo decks.

All of the yard hate (Surgical Extraction) helps keep SotF in check.

Course I could be horribly wrong and all hell breaks loose, but it'd be interesting to try.

[Antonius]

Has Fastbond already been discussed? It seems like it could be fair because the card is only really good if you already Crucible out (at which point, you'd need a third card, fetch or waste or whatever, to really gain value and a forth card, Zuran, to really do something) or in a deck that goes all in on playing multiple lands per turn. Like Lands.

[Gheizen64]

Would Worldgorger combo actually be playable or better than Reanimator?

I don't think it would even be played without Bazaar.

Turn 1 Black Vice in mono red burn is a huge beating for almost any deck, and is probably "too good" On the play, it will get in for 6 damage, maybe more depending on how the game plays out... and this is for a "fair" deck.

Vise isn't actually good in burn or any aggro list since it's a dead topdeck (i'd like to play something with galvanic blasts and vise however, no matter how bad). It's neat in stasis (a bit better than netsuke, but not that much since you actually don't care on casting it T1), but stasis can't win 2 games in 60 minutes so it's a moot point.

[ddt15]

Drago if they unban that combo hell will break loose.


think the really interesting cards to play with would be cards like Mind's Desire, Memory Jar, Channel, Fastbond, Hermit Druid, Goblin Recruiter or Gush, something that's potentially powerful but not necessarily broken that'd open up design space.
Umm... no.

[I am the brainwasher]

That seems like a fine idea!
Survival with Recruiter in the same decks seems hilarious.
Not talking about how nuts the cards are on their own.
Besides that, unbanning Mystical Tutor would only be possible if it goes hand in hand with further bannings. Having Entomb AND Show and Tell with it is just absurd.
Have you ever played against Reanimator currently? It is absurd on its own at the moment and pushing it over the top (where its already scratching at IMO) would do no good for the format. Regardless of which cards you unban.
I do understand the thought behind your post but the logic doesnt work out the way you want it to, obv. no insult intended.
When you unban Mental Mistep theres no way around banning Snapcaster with it, thats for sure. Blue would be really as degenerate as some already cry about it and would leave the format in an boring, unfun to play and choosing between 3/4 decks situation which would wreck the format completely.
Unbanning Earthcraft is fine btw, like the card, its effect and its way too fair in comparison to other cards beeing legal right now. Would love to see switching its place with S&T... .

[UnderwaterGuy]

Drago if they unban that combo hell will break loose.


I'm not so sure. We have Painter's/Grindstone and that seems like a pretty comparable combo to Earthcraft. Earthcraft would be harder to interrupt but it would be harder to assemble too.

The cards suggested by Final Fortune were a joke I assume.

[DragoFireheart]

That seems like a fine idea!
Survival with Recruiter in the same decks seems hilarious.
Not talking about how nuts the cards are on their own.
Besides that, unbanning Mystical Tutor would only be possible if it goes hand in hand with further bannings. Having Entomb AND Show and Tell with it is just absurd.
Have you ever played against Reanimator currently? It is absurd on its own at the moment and pushing it over the top (where its already scratching at IMO) would do no good for the format. Regardless of which cards you unban.
I do understand the thought behind your post but the logic doesnt work out the way you want it to, obv. no insult intended.
When you unban Mental Mistep theres no way around banning Snapcaster with it, thats for sure. Blue would be really as degenerate as some already cry about it and would leave the format in an boring, unfun to play and choosing between 3/4 decks situation which would wreck the format completely.
Unbanning Earthcraft is fine btw, like the card, its effect and its way too fair in comparison to other cards beeing legal right now. Would love to see switching its place with S&T... .

My reasoning is that if everyone gets degenerate cards it should balance out. Snappy with MMS should keep the MT decks like Reanimator in check while Goblins and SotF decks would keep the blue players in check.

[Catitas]

unban gush

[bowvamp]

The implications of this are basically that legacy would be like vintage: completely degenerate. Actually, even more so. Also, shouldn't all this banning/unbanning stuff go in the sticky that is the banned list discussion?

[Purgatory]

Earthcraft seems fine to unban to me, there are plenty of other two-card combos that can win you the game outright for the same mana Painter+Grindstone (6 mana, though all colourless), Mesmeric Orb + Basalt Monolith (5 mana, all colourless, recquires more spells to be cast, but unless you fuck up, you win when you have it online).

[Oiolosse]

Has Fastbond already been discussed? It seems like it could be fair because the card is only really good if you already Crucible out (at which point, you'd need a third card, fetch or waste or whatever, to really gain value and a forth card, Zuran, to really do something) or in a deck that goes all in on playing multiple lands per turn. Like Lands.

It would be awkward most of the time in Storm but awesome after ad nauseam. Essentially all land would be one shot city of brass' for that turn, it wouldn't count towards spells but you'd have a shitload extra mana.

I would def. test it alongside LftL in Trisomy 21.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Someone, I don't remember who*, said that even if people are talking about banning brainstorm, it won't happen, because 75% of the people on this site voted to keep it.

That means nothing.

When they were talking about abolishing the reserve list, people came out of the woodwork in support of the idea. We talked about it for weeks, and made polls, and practically everyone said "Yes, I would love it if they reprinted dual lands with black borders." I was so excited. And then a week later Wizards says "Oh, we talked to lots of people about it, including secret panels of pros and people who work at SCG and whatever, and everyone said we should abolish the reserve list, so we decided that we will never print another card from the reserve list ever, even in a promotional setting."

I don't know if there's an equivalent to writing a letter to your local representative or not, but I basically think Wizards just hates players.

I mean, transform cards? Seriously?


*: simple laziness on my part, it was dontbiteitholmes.

The difference is breaking the reserved list represents a monetary loss to some collectors/players/stores all of which WotC relies on to keep the game going. They don't want to rock the boat and risk making the most hardcore fans and stores who actually own duals mad. They made a promise not to do something long ago, it turned out to be a mistake, but they are sticking to their word. As much as I don't like this policy I understand it and I sort of admire them keeping their word even though they could make lots of money by just reprinting power and duals as premium cards.

Banning/leaving alone Brainstorm doesn't do anything to the value of most cards so it's apples and oranges.


On other things...
Recruiter is dumb. It's basically stack your goblin deck for 1R and last time I checked Food Chain still exists. I don't want to play against goblin decks with 4x infinite goblin tutors and an insane backup combo plan personally, maybe it's just me. Even without Food Chain it's a dumb card, I mean Ringleader am I right? It's not hard to Vial in Recruiter, next turn vial in Warchief, play Ringleader into a stack of 4x Piledriver and just win. Of course with Food Chain you just string a Ringleader 3x Goblins, Ringleader, 3x Goblins, Ringleader, 3x Goblins, Ringleader, 4x Goblins and next turn you're attacking for a million for those who don't remember that deck in Vintage.

Fastbond is insane broken and will NEVER NEVER EVER be unbanned in Legacy. Crucible + Fastbond is dumb. If you have a Wasteland it lets you nuke all your opponents non-basics for a little life, if you have fetchland it lets you basically play every land in your deck for 2 life each, with Zuran Orb it's infinite life. If you want to test this make Lands.dec with Fastbond instead of Exploration and LMK how that turns out. Oh Crucible + Fastbond, tutor up Orb, infinite life, Waste all your lands...

Land Tax sucks. No games with Land Tax are going to go to time because the person playing Land Tax will die pretty quick vs. a competent deck. Not to mention if we are talking cards that make the game go too long should be banned just for that we would have to ban Top, Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, ect. and nobody wants that.

[DragoFireheart]

On other things...
Recruiter is dumb. .

That's supposed to be the case.

Recruiter w/ Vial Shits on Blue decks. The goblins overwhelm them with massive card advantage.

Blue decks with Snappys, FOW, Brainstorm, and MMS shit on combo decks. The sheer amount of counters kicks them to the curb.

Combo decks shit on SotF decks and other aggro decks. Combo is too fast for SotF decks and laughs at them all day.

SotF decks shit on Goblins. SotF doesn't give a shit about Ringleader when it's smashing face with 4 veggies turn 4 or 5.

[Beatusnox]

SotF decks shit on Goblins. SotF doesn't give a shit about Ringleader when it's smashing face with 4 veggies turn 4 or 5.

Now, my theory crafting may be off. But wouldnt food chain goblins swing for stupid more damage than 4 vengevine on turn 2/3?

[dontbiteitholmes]

That's supposed to be the case.

Recruiter w/ Vial Shits on Blue decks. The goblins overwhelm them with massive card advantage.

Blue decks with Snappys, FOW, Brainstorm, and MMS shit on combo decks. The sheer amount of counters kicks them to the curb.

Combo decks shit on SotF decks and other aggro decks. Combo is too fast for SotF decks and laughs at them all day.

SotF decks shit on Goblins. SotF doesn't give a shit about Ringleader when it's smashing face with 4 veggies turn 4 or 5.

While I'm all for unbanning Survival I'd rather that come with a ban on Vengevine. That shit made Legacy really unfun to play and I agree with the ban, even if I don't agree with the card. If you are saying you want Survival unbanned so we can all play Survival Vine again I think you're in the minority. Outside of Vine the card is A-OK and one of my favorites, with Vine the card is obnoxious to the format and stifles the openness and innovation that takes place otherwise.

While I agree that Goblins should beat blue, it pretty much already does. Sure it's not the insane matchup it was years ago but against the majority of blue decks I think a well built Goblins deck has the upper hand. The problem is with Recruiter there is pretty much no reason to play any other aggro deck without blue. Also with Recruiter the deck can race combo (well with Recruiter the deck IS combo), turn 3 wins are easy even without Lackey or Vial.

Turn 1 land one drop pass, turn 2 land, Recruiter, turn 3 land, Food Chain, sac Recruiter + 1drop Goblin, Ringleader reveal 3 Goblins + Ringleader, sac him, 3 more goblins another Ringleader, sac him +3 gobs another Ringleader, one more time, sac him another Ringleader, sac Ringleader SeigeGang, sac him and tokens, 13 mana and at least 11 Goblins of your choice that you stacked on top of your deck with a 2mana card last turn in your hand then you just win. Of course there are other ways to win on turn 3 but I think that example makes my point.

With that in the format why the hell would anyone ever play Maverick or Zoo or any midrange deck ever again? I have to completely disagree with Recruiter ever being unbanned. With Recruiter Goblins is an even better aggro deck than it is now (it would easily be the best aggro deck in the format) AND a tier 2 combo deck as plan B. No thank you sir.

[Final Fortune]

Drago if they unban that combo hell will break loose.


Umm... no.

Obviously those cards are pushing the envelope, but besides the obvious choices like Mind Twist (worse than Hymn to Tourach) Land Tax (worse than Life from the Loam) Earth Craft (worse than every other 2 card combo) there really aren't any other cards to "experiment" with.

I think Hermit Druid and Mind's Desire are probably safe, Channel is arguably just another Emakrul enabler so it's probably not worth it and Goblin Recruiter and Gush may just push Goblins and Blue.dec over the top as well so maybe Fastbond is the card to look at for any applications outside of lands.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Obviously those cards are pushing the envelope, but besides the obvious choices like Mind Twist (worse than Hymn to Tourach) Land Tax (worse than Life from the Loam) Earth Craft (worse than every other 2 card combo) there really aren't any other cards to "experiment" with.

I think Hermit Druid and Mind's Desire are probably safe, Channel is arguably just another Emakrul enabler so it's probably not worth it and Goblin Recruiter and Gush may just push Goblins and Blue.dec over the top as well so maybe Fastbond is the card to look at for any applications outside of lands.

Hermit Druid will never be unbanned. The fact that it is fragile does not balance the fact that it is still basically a one card win the game combo.

Channel is interesting. I don't think it will get unbanned anytime soon, but it actually seems a lot safer on the surface to than a lot of the cards people have been talking about in this thread.

[Gheizen64]

Hermit Druid will never be unbanned. The fact that it is fragile does not balance the fact that it is still basically a one card win the game combo.

Channel is interesting. I don't think it will get unbanned anytime soon, but it actually seems a lot safer on the surface to than a lot of the cards people have been talking about in this thread.

Channel deck, 65% win T1 lol:

1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
3 Channel
4 Burning Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Lich's Mirror
3 Empty the Warrens

More interesting is a Bargain list, which is arguably worse than hivemind since it require more dead cards in the main (rituals/moxens/petals), need you to go dual color (more exposition to waste, less choice in the usage of FoW) and is slightly more easily answered by things like CotV (CotV for 0 or 1 make it extremely hard for the deck to win even with a bargain down) and burn (ye' old double bolt). Yes, bargain is broken, but honestly, hivemind and dream halls are pretty broken enchantments too and are still fair. It's better than hivemind in topdecks situations and has a faster goldfish.

4 City of Traitors
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Darkslick Shores
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
4 Intuition
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Yawgmoth's Bargain

[Amon Amarth]

That's supposed to be the case.

Recruiter w/ Vial Shits on Blue decks. The goblins overwhelm them with massive card advantage.

Blue decks with Snappys, FOW, Brainstorm, and MMS shit on combo decks. The sheer amount of counters kicks them to the curb.

Combo decks shit on SotF decks and other aggro decks. Combo is too fast for SotF decks and laughs at them all day.

SotF decks shit on Goblins. SotF doesn't give a shit about Ringleader when it's smashing face with 4 veggies turn 4 or 5.

I agree with this, mostly.

The thing I can most realistically see is unbanning one of those cards (Survival or Recruiter) and then going from there. There really aren't any other cards on the banned list that can realistically come off and not warp the shit out of the format. Or there are good cards but they won't really give you any reason to not play Blue decks: Land Tax, Black Vise, etc. These cards should come off and I've seen no good argument for them to remain there.

Earthcraft could be interesting. You could throw the AoS combo in Elves to give it another level of resiliency against Wraths and a solid Plan B. That being said it's not like Elves has a lot of free slots and there are no way to tutor for these cards; Squirrel Nest isn't very impressive by itself. You could play Earthcraft in Enchantress and it makes that deck slightly better but nothing to write home about.

Belcher is still a deck so Channel isn't a realistic candidate. Fastbond... even if it wasn't involved in some insane combo/prison deck or whatever is a very powerful weapon even when put in "fair" decks. There are no applications for this card that isn't broken in half.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Channel deck, 65% win T1 lol:

1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
3 Channel
4 Burning Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Lich's Mirror
3 Empty the Warrens


I'm not seeing it. Unless you get Channel early you are just playing what amounts to a bad Belcher deck and Force of Will and Spell Snare still exist. Not saying Channel should be unbanned, but I'd rather that happen then Recruiter or Fastbond.

[Gheizen64]

I'm not seeing it. Unless you get Channel early you are just playing what amounts to a bad Belcher deck and Force of Will and Spell Snare still exist. Not saying Channel should be unbanned, but I'd rather that happen then Recruiter or Fastbond.

Sample of hands (courtesy of iba from another thread):

Test 1: Hand of SSG, SSG, Chrome Mox, ESG, Seething Song, Desperate Ritual, Charbelcher. Draw Desperate Ritual for the turn. Turn 1 win on the draw, turn 2 on the play.

Test 2: Hand of Chancellor, Chancellor, ESG, Rite of Flame, Empty the Warrens, Charbelcher, Manamorphose. Keep, getting up to four mana and preparing to Manamorphose into Tendrils. Draw Channel instead. Play Charbelcher, and if that doesn't kill them have mana left over to ETW for ten tokens.

Test 3: Hand of Emrakul, EtW, Chrome Mox, Land Grant, ESG, SSG, Seething Song. On the play, EtW for eight tokens. On the draw, draw Channel and cast Emrakul.

Test 4: Hand of Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Emrakul, Charbelcher, SSG, Land Grant, Chancellor. Grant into Rite +SSG, cast Charbelcher with mana to activate next turn. On the draw, draw Mox and imprint Chancellor winning turn 1.

Test 5: Hand of Rite, Chancellor, SSG, Taiga, Mox, ETW, Charbelcher. On the play play Charbelcher with mana left over to kill next turn. On the draw draw Belcher and do the same thing.

Test 6: Hand of Rite, Rite, Manamorphose, ESG, Taiga, Burning Wish, Lich's Mirror. Wish for Channel, play Lich's Mirror. On the draw, draw Channel. Have mana to wish for Overmaster before going off. Lich draws into: Emrakul + another Lich's Mirror.

Also to quote myself from another thread:



The problem of running tutors is that you never have the mana, a lot of your mana is one-shot and running Bwish into channel is so much slower than just channel. You'd need another shell for it, not belcher. You're welcome to try another shell.

I'm currently testing this list, much more tuned than the other one:

Coinflip.dec

4 Serum Powder
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lich's Mirror
4 Pact of Negation
4 Chrome Mox
4 Channel
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Manamorphose
4 Lotus Petal
4 Land Grant
3 Mental Misstep
1 Taiga
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chancellor of the Tangle


In 60 games i had:

33 wins on turn 1
1 win on turn 2 via 5 mana + lich mirror on T1

of which:

9 games where i won i had Pact backup
8 games where i won i had MM backup
15 games where i had either
2 games where i had both

In %

55% T1 wins
25% T1 wins with MM or Pact Backup
15% T1 wins with Pact Backup


You can test it if you like. Some notes:

-the basic of the deck is : Mull into Channel. The chance of seeing a Channel in hand are about 70% considering stacking mull percents. So the majority of times you see Channel, you win. About 80% of the times i'd say.
-all those games where on the play, but going on the draw isn't so bad since the most played 1 mana counter is MM and you don't care about it.
-you can't summoner pact into emrakul
-channel->lich mirror don't always win the game. I fizzled once or twice doing it.
-if you have Powder and more than 1 channel in hand, a normal mulligan is better than a powder mulligan in terms of seeing another channel. If you have exactly 1 channel in hand, the chance of drawing one is exactly the same for both mulligans (~35.2%), so consider the other card in your hand, a lot of simian and serum means you go for serum mull usually.
- the deck can and will win on 4 cards. Channel, 2 mana, Win condition. Mulligan aggressively if you want to win on T1.
- this testing was done in turn to win T1. There were game where i could have won after T1, but i didn't consider those at all. I'd say "unwinnable" (later than T3 goldfish) games in are about 30%, so the deck lose to himself a lot. Still, it remain absurdly fast. For comparison, i believe even the fastest possible belcher has no more than 25% of T1 wins currently.

Channel can stay forever banned with no remorse.

I'm done for the Channel part. Trying a fastbond combo deck probably next. Also LoA is an interesting card but that can't go off for monetary reasons, so i won't test it.

MM is now banned but you get the idea.

[leegoo]

Hermit Druid - 1 card combo. NOT getting unbanned.

Goblin Recruiter and Survival - Turn Aggro decks into Aggro/Combo decks (think Skullclamp), and give those aggro decks a chance to both race other combo's while still being very strong against Control. (There is a reason they said the Best aggro/control/combo decks a couple years ago all included 4x Survival)
Also, when it comes to the Goblin, when you "go off" with food chain you often sit there and durdle around figuring out the right stack for a chunk of time...

Mind's Desire - In a format with multiple GOOD rituals (none of this Seething Song Gilded Lotus BS) this card allows for too many silly plays. Yes, 6 (and two U) is a lot to ramp to, but if you hit that six mana point, you are almost surely going to win, and unlike Ad Nauseam, it's a card with very few direct answers.

Both Channel and Fastbond have already had cases made. Both allow for too much degenerate trolling.

Bargain, Gush, and Earthcraft are all "maybe" in my mind. I can't imagine Bargain is safe, but then I was wrong about Time Spiral too. Gush is the same... I'm not sure there is a deck that abuse it to the point of it being "broken" in legacy, but when you see some of the dumb things it can do in vintage, I will say I can see the possibility. Earthcraft I'm all for. I still can't find a "broken" combo with it, although it does seem good/playable.

Mind Twist and Black Vise I'm all for unbanning, although I do think both have the potential (and possibly why they are still banned) to randomly win games in a very "unfun" manner.

[Gheizen64]

Hermit Druid - 1 card combo. NOT getting unbanned.

Goblin Recruiter and Survival - Turn Aggro decks into Aggro/Combo decks (think Skullclamp), and give those aggro decks a chance to both race other combo's while still being very strong against Control. (There is a reason they said the Best aggro/control/combo decks a couple years ago all included 4x Survival)
Also, when it comes to the Goblin, when you "go off" with food chain you often sit there and durdle around figuring out the right stack for a chunk of time...

Mind's Desire - In a format with multiple GOOD rituals (none of this Seething Song Gilded Lotus BS) this card allows for too many silly plays. Yes, 6 (and two U) is a lot to ramp to, but if you hit that six mana point, you are almost surely going to win, and unlike Ad Nauseam, it's a card with very few direct answers.

Both Channel and Fastbond have already had cases made. Both allow for too much degenerate trolling.

Bargain, Gush, and Earthcraft are all "maybe" in my mind. I can't imagine Bargain is safe, but then I was wrong about Time Spiral too. Gush is the same... I'm not sure there is a deck that abuse it to the point of it being "broken" in legacy, but when you see some of the dumb things it can do in vintage, I will say I can see the possibility. Earthcraft I'm all for. I still can't find a "broken" combo with it, although it does seem good/playable.

Mind Twist and Black Vise I'm all for unbanning, although I do think both have the potential (and possibly why they are still banned) to randomly win games in a very "unfun" manner.

Gush is a bad card. It says:

Gush 0
Gush is blue.
Counter target wasteland, add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool, draw 2 cards, then lol

So bad bad bad

[DrJones]

I think Earthcraft would be safe to unban if they banned Squirrel Nest. The problem with the Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest combo is that it makes aggro uninteresting, the same way combo kills like Natural Order have purged pure control decks from the format. It's simply more efficient to go that route and win sooner.

[DragoFireheart]

I'll hit your other points later.


While I'm all for unbanning Survival I'd rather that come with a ban on Vengevine. That shit made Legacy really unfun to play and I agree with the ban, even if I don't agree with the card. If you are saying you want Survival unbanned so we can all play Survival Vine again I think you're in the minority. Outside of Vine the card is A-OK and one of my favorites, with Vine the card is obnoxious to the format and stifles the openness and innovation that takes place otherwise.


There is enough varied graveyard hate that any deck can use (Surgical Extraction) that SotF and Vengevine being unbanned together would be safe to use.

@ Gush suggestions:

You guys really need to stop suggesting Gush. lmao. It would be too easy for blue decks to abuse.

[leegoo]

You guys really need to stop suggesting Gush. lmao. It would be too easy for blue decks to abuse.

This from the guy that suggested Mystical Tutor could come off ;)

[DragoFireheart]

This from the guy that suggested Mystical Tutor could come off ;)

If MMS were unbanned it could keep MT in check. Neither card can keep Gush in check. MT is also card disadvantage. Yeah I know what you're saying but I'm saying that what your saying is not what I'm saying.

[leegoo]

haha yeah I see what you're saying. Gush probably isn't safe, but it's safer than MT/Recruiter/Survival - or at least on the same level of safeness.

I think we can all agree we just don't WANT Misstep back ;)

[Admiral_Arzar]

Mind's Desire - In a format with multiple GOOD rituals (none of this Seething Song Gilded Lotus BS) this card allows for too many silly plays. Yes, 6 (and two U) is a lot to ramp to, but if you hit that six mana point, you are almost surely going to win, and unlike Ad Nauseam, it's a card with very few direct answers.

Bargain, Gush, and Earthcraft are all "maybe" in my mind. I can't imagine Bargain is safe, but then I was wrong about Time Spiral too. Gush is the same... I'm not sure there is a deck that abuse it to the point of it being "broken" in legacy, but when you see some of the dumb things it can do in vintage, I will say I can see the possibility.



Mind's Desire - Stifle, Mindbreak Trap, Flusterstorm, Orim's Chant, Silence, etc. all answer this. I dunno if it should ever actually be unbanned, but it's expensive and by no means unanswerable by cards that are all relatively common. In addition, it's not like FOW'ing the acceleration won't stop the desire player from ever reaching six mana.

Gush would make tempo blue decks even stupider, which is really not something that should ever happen at this point. Bargain...I dunno. Again, like Desire, there exists a lot of potential for abuse. It costs a lot of mana though, and is easily counterable (or dealt with by grip/needle/etc.). While being easier to answer than Desire, it's a lot easier to set up (no storm required, not much randomness - even large desires can sometimes fizzle).

[DragoFireheart]

This from the guy that suggested Mystical Tutor could come off ;)

If MMS were unbanned it could keep MT in check. Neither card can keep Gush in check. MT is also card disadvantage. Yeah I know what you're saying but I'm saying that what your saying is not what I'm saying.

I'd also be willing to try SotF, GR and Earthcraft all unbanned at the same time. If people don't like that, then Earthcraft could easily be unbanned safely at this point.



Mind's Desire - Stifle, Mindbreak Trap, Flusterstorm, Orim's Chant, Silence, etc. all answer this. I dunno if it should ever actually be unbanned, but it's expensive and by no means unanswerable by cards that are all relatively common. In addition, it's not like FOW'ing the acceleration won't stop the desire player from ever reaching six mana.


I think Mind's Desire could safely be unbanned. For the same CMC mana they could cast Ad Nasuiem, which basically means they win and AD is arguably more powerful.

[Barook]

I think Earthcraft would be safe to unban if they banned Squirrel Nest. The problem with the Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest combo is that it makes aggro uninteresting, the same way combo kills like Natural Order have purged pure control decks from the format. It's simply more efficient to go that route and win sooner.
I don't think that the Squirrel Nest combo is good enough to stay banned anymore. What did it get in the last years that made it truely better, compared to cards that counter it?

Pithing Needle and Revoker are both cheap, versatile cards that can go into every SB and are useful in quite a few match-ups, including cockblocking the Earthcraft combo pretty hard.

Edit: Pridemage is a pretty common MD card, too.

[jardach]

my ideas for unbannings:

Demonic Consultation - is it realy so dangerous? is it realy so good tutor?

Give me a reason,why this card should stay banned...

I find and understand reason at the other cards,but this one?

[Solar Ice]

my ideas for unbannings:

Demonic Consultation - is it realy so dangerous? is it realy so good tutor?

Give me a reason,why this card should stay banned...

I find and understand reason at the other cards,but this one?


Its a one-mana, instant tutor that puts the named card in you hand, making it far better than the likes of Mystical. The power level of this card is absurd, really. The, drawback is negligible most of the time. If ANT or TES had access to this card they would both be Tier 1. Not to mention its easily splashable.

[Solar Ice]

haha yeah I see what you're saying. Gush probably isn't safe, but it's safer than MT/Recruiter/Survival - or at least on the same level of safeness.

I think we can all agree we just don't WANT Misstep back ;)

Yeah, Gush (along with Earthcraft) is just about the most sane suggestion in this thread, imo. Far better than the ridiculouly overowered crap some have been suggesting. And even then it is probably too good. The ability to dodge Wasteland and CA to boot? I've played Gush decks in Vintage and it's totally busted there, even with a restricted Merchant Scroll and Brainstorm. The GushBond Engine is ridiculous beyond belief. The one redeeming factor is that Fastbond doesn't exist in Legacy as well as cheap,reusable Artifact mana with no real drawback, a la Moxen, Lotus, Sol Ring. It would be interesting to see how this card does in Legacy, though. But then giving Blue tempo decks more powerful tools is likely not the best of ideas.

And yeah, we can most certainly agree that Misstep should stay Banned. :smile:


think Mind's Desire could safely be unbanned. For the same CMC mana they could cast Ad Nasuiem, which basically means they win and AD is arguably more powerful.

I wish. But Desire is nowhere near safe to unban. Ad Nauseum requires a high life total to be effective, and you can certainly lose even then. Desire, even at 4 or 5 gives a big chance to win, no matter you life total, and is considerably harder to stop.


Leave Misstep banned and print a fixed version that doesn't hit perms, problem solved.

And what problem would that be? You seem to have a real hatred for Combo. It's hardly played since Snapcaster. Is Snappy not enough for you? Wanna stomp on it in even further with your "fixed" Misstep?

[bruizar]

I'm not seeing it. Unless you get Channel early you are just playing what amounts to a bad Belcher deck and Force of Will and Spell Snare still exist. Not saying Channel should be unbanned, but I'd rather that happen then Recruiter or Fastbond.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37247.0

Here's a degenerate channel list from Vintage.

Quote
Martin Bonneville
Deck: Miroir Magique (From team Québec)

Ancestral Recall
Brainstom
Ponder
Timetwister
Tinker
Platinum Angel
Karveck's Torch
Memory Jar
4 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Chromatic Star
4 Seinsei's Divining Top
4 Fabricate
4 Lich's Mirror
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Imperial Seal
Mystical Tutor
4 Personal Tutor
Channel
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Tropical Island
Mox Emerald
Mox Sapphire
Black Lotus
Lotus Petal

Channel would be played as a 4-off, insane amounts of mana will be made with Lich's Mirror, and people would just get an uncounterable fireball to the dome. If that didn't work, Emrakul would simply time walk and win.

Channel won't be unbanned.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Its a one-mana, instant tutor that puts the named card in you hand, making it far better than the likes of Mystical. The power level of this card is absurd, really. The, drawback is negligible most of the time. If ANT or TES had access to this card they would both be Tier 1. Not to mention its easily splashable.

Please give me consultation. Even the likes of SI would have a shot at Tier 1 with that card - it's the most busted tutor in the game by a mile, despite the drawback. If anybody didn't catch the sarcasm, no, DC should NOT be unbanned.



And what problem would that be? You seem to have a real hatred for Combo. It's hardly played since Snapcaster. Is Snappy not enough for you? Wanna stomp on it in even further with your "fixed" Misstep?

1000x THIS. I have come to the point where every time I see an argument about unbanning Misstep or printing anything remotely like it, I just dismiss it as "Combo haters gonna hate" and move on. Some people just have an axe to grind with combo decks (and players) regardless of how bad the archetype is in the format at the moment.

[Mr. Safety]

I perused the pages a little...but did the OP seriously suggest unbanning Land Tax?

Really?:confused: The format would jump on that card like a fat man on a jelly donut, and then run around in circles before the eminent crash from sugar overload. Down for the count.

[Gheizen64]

Yeah, Gush (along with Earthcraft) is just about the most sane suggestion in this thread, imo. Far better than the ridiculouly overowered crap some have been suggesting. And even then it is probably too good. The ability to dodge Wasteland and CA to boot? I've played Gush decks in Vintage and it's totally busted there, even with a restricted Merchant Scroll and Brainstorm. The GushBond Engine is ridiculous beyond belief. The one redeeming factor is that Fastbond doesn't exist in Legacy as well as cheap,reusable Artifact mana with no real drawback, a la Moxen, Lotus, Sol Ring. It would be interesting to see how this card does in Legacy, though. But then giving Blue tempo decks more powerful tools is likely not the best of ideas.

And yeah, we can most certainly agree that Misstep should stay Banned. :smile:



I wish. But Desire is nowhere near safe to unban. Ad Nauseum requires a high life total to be effective, and you can certainly lose even then. Desire, even at 4 or 5 gives a big chance to win, no matter you life total, and is considerably harder to stop.



And what problem would that be? You seem to have a real hatred for Combo. It's hardly played since Snapcaster. Is Snappy not enough for you? Wanna stomp on it in even further with your "fixed" Misstep?


How can people seriously think a draw 2 card for -1 mana is safe i dunno. Dodge waste too.
Half the banned list is safer than gush: tax, recruiter, twist, earthcraft, hermit, mana vault, vise, survival, bargain, alexandria, memory jar, worldgorger dragon, mental misstep, desire, frantic search, skullclamp, windfall are all clearly inferior to gush if you ask me. If you use Vintage as a reference, most of the card i listed are scarcely played except for MM (insane in a low shop meta), Bargain (but with a lot more free mana in the format) and Mana vault (usually in shops). And please (this is not intended for you), don't use the vintage argument for consultation, it's the best tutor ever printed in a format with no restricted cards.
The moment gush get unbanned, you basically kill anything that's not blue and you get a format of GushTendril, Gush Doomsday and GushTempo (10 differents variants, same deck essentially). Not to say it's a uninteresting card, just play anything you would normally and add 4 gush. Anything that don't play gush isn't playable.

[Richard Cheese]

Vise just feels vestigial on the banned list. It got restricted in what..'96? '97? I mean we're talking back in the days when Ivory Tower, Kird Ape, Zuran Orb, and Maze of Ith were all banned. It's just a relic of a bygone age when Land Destruction was an archetype to be feared.

[Rizso]

Would love to see mind twist geting unbanned. No Maindrain to abuse it. And even with a ritual chain into a it the diffrence in card trading isnt that big. Ritual ritaul twist is 4 for 3 cards. While its flexible costed and indeed powerful spell imo its not ban worthy.

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah the best place for mind twist is in control mirrors, that is literally all. Against zoo, you don't want the card because it's likely going to be a 1 for 1 on turn 2.

Channel should be banned forever. It is one of the most broken accelerants in all of magic, please don't unban it.

Gush should also stay banned. When people are saying blue is too good and you talk about unbanning gush you look moronic.

Vise is also just an anti control card. The only broken part about vise is that any deck can play it since it costs a generic 1 mana. And turn 1 vise on the play is ridiculous as long as you aren't facing a dredge player who mulled quite a bit since dredge mulligans a lot generally.

Demonic consultation is soooooooooooooo broken it isn't even funny. If mystical isn't fair enough for legacy, this is definitely not fair enough. Get any card in your deck at instant speed for B. Yeah. Seems fair. Even with misstep unbanned alongside consultation this card would wreck the format.

Earthcraft isn't broken enough in legacy. Please unban it, who's going to play squirrelcraft anyways when the combo is pretty slow when stacked up against TES and ANT.

Yawgmoth's bargain is a really, really, REALLY broken version of hive mind. It can be SnT'ed into play and when it resolves with no hate against it good luck losing unless you have a paltry life total. While 6 mana is a lot, it's 6 mana that will win you the game over 95% of the time when it resolves. It shouldn't get unbanned if it does I will play it for 3 months straight end of story.

Mind's desire is pretty bonkers when you can play multiples. Therein lies the problem. We can play 4 desire's and it isn't reliant on life total. The combo decks this card would spawn would be highly resilient and effective. Granted a legacy shell hasn't been made for the card but rest assured that a broken shell would be found to abuse this card in even if it were just mono U high tide desire would be bonkers in there being able to draw a lot of cards and desire into desire = GG's 99.99% of the time.

[dahcmai]

I want Ancestral Recall because they banned Mystical and you can't fetch it up anymore. Seems like Lapille logic to me. Should be fine of course.

[DragoFireheart]

I want Ancestral Recall because they banned Mystical and you can't fetch it up anymore. Seems like Lapille logic to me. Should be fine of course.

I agree. Drawing three cards for U isn't that bad compared to drawing 7 for 1BB or BB every turn and making your opponent discard their hand each turn.

[Meekrab]

Every time I see someone suggest unbanning Gush I die a little bit inside. Playing Gush is like if you stapled Dark Ritual and Night's Whisper together and gave it a casting cost of 0. Oh and you don't lose any life either.

Seems legit. I'd honestly rather they unban Imperial Seal, Sol Ring and Mana Drain. Seal is worse than Grim Tutor (which nobody plays), we already have 2 mana artifact lands, and Mana Drain is roughly as broken as Force of Will.

[damionblackgear]

I could go for them unbanning all of their recent bannings (Misstep, Mystical, and Survival). I think it'd be fun to watch the chaos that ensued. Then again, they only had to ban those cards because people complained and didn't adapt.