Necro-Rotation

[optml]

Hi Legacy Community,

I'm hoping for some help on a deck I've been playing on MWS. When it works, it works well, but it can flop. I want some help on consistency.

It basically revolves around casting the super swanky necrologia for 19 cards or so, and in the same end step, casting soul spike and needlebite trap for the win. To ensure you can cast it, there are (non-life draining) discard spells and rituals.

// Spells
4x Necrologia
4x Soul Spike
4x Needlebite Trap
4x dark ritual
4x cabal ritual
4x Crop Rotation
4x lotus petal
4x duress
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Elvish spirit guide
4x grim tutor

// lands
4x Grove of the burnwillows
8x Swamp
4x bayou


An example 1st turn win goldfish hand would be:

Necrologia, lotus petal, dark ritual, elvish spirit guide, land, 2 other cards.

Cast your mana producers, then necrologia for 19 life.
Assuming you draw what you need. (which in almost half your deck you should)

Elvish spirit guide for G, cast crop rotation, sacrificing land for grove, adding green (giving them 1 life) for another crop rotation. Sac land and search for swamp.

Cast dark ritual / cabal rituals, use the mana for a couple of soul spikes and needlebite traps (as they have gained life it's only 1 mana).

If they aren't dead, cast another necrologia (as you should have sufficient mana with all the rituals).

Repeat.

But... If you draw rubbish, or the deal you lots of damage while you're setting up, it can fail miserably.

Any thoughts guys?

[Nameless Two]

Maybe Moment's Peace? Or another kind of fog?

[Slag]

There's a thread in the casual forum with a similar idea (minus Crop Rotation and Needlebite Trap) that uses Noxious Revival and some free cyclers to recur Soul Spike and add a little resiliancy. You might also pop in a single Cabal Coffers or Lake of the Dead to generate enough mana for a second Necrologia mid-combo.

[optml]

There's a thread in the casual forum with a similar idea (minus Crop Rotation and Needlebite Trap) that uses Noxious Revival and some free cyclers to recur Soul Spike and add a little resiliancy. You might also pop in a single Cabal Coffers or Lake of the Dead to generate enough mana for a second Necrologia mid-combo.

I hadn't checked that out; that's interesting actually! Well, I was hoping to make this competitive and (including 4 bayou!) is not a budget version. If the Administrators want to merge them then that's find by me.

Also, cabal coffers wouldn't work with so few swamps, and for a similar reason, I'd be hesitant to include Lake of the Dead too.

Has anyone else tried testing with this deck? It's a lot of fun to go first turn Duress, 2nd turn win in your discard step.

Having a 'one card win' combo for 3BB is basically what ANT or TES do, so I think this deck has potential.

[MirrorMask]

I haven't played something similar but wouldn't something like orim's chant
actually help before you play necrologia? You have 8 discard effects for protection but some more wouldn't hurt I guess. At least there will be one counterspell less aimed at necrologia.

[Seems Good]

First things first...cool deck idea.

With that being said, looking at the way the deck operates and the the lack of consistency, all that comes to mind is storm combo. Don't get me wrong, I love innovation, rogue deck ideas, and bringing something new to the table, but if you want to win off of ritual effects and tutoring...I just feel like i'm playing a less optimal version of ANT. Granted, I dont think ANT gets a turn 1 win very frequently, or at all for that matter, so maybe that's a reason to play this build, but you both still lose to FoW. Any other reasons for playing this over storm other than that it's a pet deck idea?

[andrewlb]

I unfortunately don't have any good consistency suggestions besides adding blue but that isn't what this deck is looking to do I don't think. My suggestion is that you cut inquisitions for thoughtseize. Real awkward if you inquisition and they have Force...

[optml]

I unfortunately don't have any good consistency suggestions besides adding blue but that isn't what this deck is looking to do I don't think. My suggestion is that you cut inquisitions for thoughtseize. Real awkward if you inquisition and they have Force...

Thoughtseize is a big no-no, as the more life I lose the fewer cards I draw off Necrologia.

As far as "Why play this over Storm / ANT / TES"? I don't know. I haven't used them enough to know their consistency, or their specific issues...
I guess I could lower the ritual effects, and up the disruption.

E.g. -4 Lotus petal
+2 swamp
+2 Hymn to Tourach

I think this is a deck idea with potential, as it wins in one turn, off one card.
I just need more suggestions or testing I think.

N.B. Another good reason to play this is (assuming you replace the bayou's) the deck costs almost nothing! The most expensive cards are the groves. The rest are cheap as chips. (Yes yes, I know this isn't the budget forum, but everyone loves to save money).

[John Cox]

N.B. Another good reason to play this is (assuming you replace the bayou's) the deck costs almost nothing! The most expensive cards are the groves. The rest are cheap as chips. (Yes yes, I know this isn't the budget forum, but everyone loves to save money).
The Grim tutors cost $200 each

[optml]

The Grim tutors cost $200 each

Ok, Brainspoil will substitute (it is the card I used for the very reason you mentioned above). When I wrote the list on TheSource though, I thought I would include the best.

[John Cox]

I have no problem with grim tutor, it's a great card and worth using, just not cheap.

[optml]

I've been playing casually with this deck, and it's doing very well. The current list is:

// Spells
4x Necrologia
4x Soul Spike
4x Needlebite Trap
4x dark ritual
2x cabal ritual
4x Crop Rotation
2x Unmask
4x duress
4x Elvish spirit guide
4x grim tutor
3x Pact of Negation
3x Hymn to Tourach

// lands
3x Grove of the burnwillows
15x Swamp


More advice or thoughts would be much appreciate though!

The pacts are risky, but I realised that once I've paid 19 life (as Necrologia is an additional cost situation) then I've lost if it is countered anyway. I may as well have the free counter as a back up.

Having only 3 groves is also a bit risky, as if I draw 3 (unlikely!) in my resolved necro, I can't combo off properly. Having only basic lands apart from it though makes it MUCH harder to disrupt (stifle & wasteland do nothing until it's too late).

Any comments guys?

[Greenpoe]

Crop Rotation turns a 1-of Lake of the Dead into a Dark Ritual. For example, T1 Bayou (or swamp+Elvish Spirit Guide/Lotus Petal), T2 Swamp, Crop Rotation for Lake of the Dead, sacrifice the bayou, tap Lake of the Dead, tap and sacrifice the swamp, and you've got BBBBB, enough mana from Crop Rotation alone to cast your Necrologia.

[Daesik]

Crop Rotation turns a 1-of Lake of the Dead into a Dark Ritual. For example, T1 Bayou (or swamp+Elvish Spirit Guide/Lotus Petal), T2 Swamp, Crop Rotation for Lake of the Dead, sacrifice the bayou, tap Lake of the Dead, tap and sacrifice the swamp, and you've got BBBBB, enough mana from Crop Rotation alone to cast your Necrologia.

That doesn't work due to the errata on Lake of the Dead. You have to sacrifice a swamp before it even enters the battlefield.


If Lake of the Dead would enter the battlefield, sacrifice a Swamp instead. If you do, put Lake of the Dead onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.

[optml]

The lack of interest in this deck surprises me; it's a 1st turn win, 1 card combo deck, that is immune to graveyard hate, creature removal, sorcery based threats.... Apart from needing a high life total to combo, and the fact that the spells can be countered, it is pretty un-interruptable.

It's even cheap to assemble!

Now, I have been looking at another approach (obviously looking at Necrologia again as it's totally awesome) but changing the colour from B/G to B/R. This gives me access to a card I only recently discovered; lightning storm.

Now I'm not sure if people have tried (or succeeded) in breaking that card, but I want to give it a go. To win with it and deal 20+ damage to an opponent, you "only" need 9 lands to discard (9x2+3=21). Assuming they have used a fetch land / confidant / force of will etc., this count can be 8 lands or less.

Therefore, one resolved Necrologia, followed by casting lightning storm, will allow for the same win but with different pro's / con's. The main pro in my opinion is that it frees up a lot of slots.

Just for those who are new to the thread, the plan is to cast Necrologia for 19 or so cards in my discard step, then win in that step.
I would use Simian Spirit Guide and pyretic ritual to produce mana, cast lightning storm (discarding a lot of lands) and follow up with a fireblast or two for extra damage.

The list I'm trying is:

// Spells
4x Necrologia
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x dark ritual
3x Lightning Storm
4x duress
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x grim tutor
2x Fireblast
2x Mox Diamond
3x Hymn to Tourach

// lands
2x Gemstone Caverns
4x Bloodstained Mire
8x Swamp
4x Badlands
4x Blood Crypt


Any tips?
Stick with the Rotation version?

[Darkenslight]

Truth be told, I don't like the Storm wincon - mostly because it also requires the opponent to not have a land in hand. It's worth testing, but personally, I think it lacks that hard win-con effect that cards like Soul Spike have.

[optml]

Here is the deck as it stands, and a little tournament report (it won't be long as I'm at work, and time is short) in which I went 3-1 up.

N.B. for those who don't know, this deck wins by casting necrologia for all your life in your discard step and winning on the spot using black instants.

// Spells
4x Necrologia
4x Soul Spike
4x Needlebite Trap
4x dark ritual
4x cabal ritual
4x Crop Rotation
4x duress
4x Elvish spirit guide
4x brainspoil
3x Sensei's Divining top
3x Chancellor of the dross

// lands
4x Grove of the burnwillows
13x Swamp
1x Lake of the Dead

// Sideboard
4x Faerie Macabre
3x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Pact of Negation

I went to a little 4 round, unsanctioned event at my local magic shop yesterday, and as noone has yet posted (or played!) with this deck, I thought I'd include a little report. Apologies for the rushed writing.

The rounds were Dredge (2-1), UW Delver (0-2), Combo-Elves (2-0) and Merfolk (2-1).

Round 1; Dredge

G1 he did what Dredge does best, and owned me by the 3rd turn with zombies, ichorids and blue flying jellyfish.

-4 Duress, +4 Faerie Macabre

G2 early on, he had a dominating board position (from 1st turn careful study into phatamasgorian, getting GGT into his graveyard, and whipping out a couple of narco's). He looked ready to combo out, so I thought I would go for it and hope for the best.

Life totals stood at
Me: 20
Him: 15 (chancellor in my opening hand and a couple of city of brass damage)

My 2nd turn, and I had 1 swamp in play. In hand was Chancellor, dark ritual, cabal ritual, crop rotation x2, Elvish spirit guide and the decks name-sake, necrologia.

In my discard step, I did the following (which, as my deck did nothing the game before, was all completely new for my opponent. He had only seen a duress, swamps and a sensei's divining top last game):
tapped swamp, cast dark ritual. Exiled ESG for rotation, saccing the swamp for grove. Tapped for a green from grove (giving him 1 life) and casting cabal-ritual for necrologia and 19 life.

0 floating, 1 life, and an extra 19 cards in hand.

Exiled Spirit guide # 2 for the 2nd crop rotation. found a swamp, cast another dark ritual and cabal ritual (now threshold) for BBBBBB floating. 2 soul spike's and 1 needlebite trap later, left the scores on the doors as:
Me: 14
Him: 3

I just needed a soul spike (plenty of black cards in my hand) or needlebite. No rituals but I had drawn a 3rd ESG in my 19 cards. I exiled it, used 4 of the remaining 5 black mana, cast necrologia #2 for 13 cards, drew a needlebite, and used my last black floating to cast it for the win. Dredge guy was suitably impressed.

G3 was a grinding game in which I drew all 4 Faerie macabre's, ended up hard-casting an ESG and using my own brainspoil on him to remove his 3 bridges, and then comboing off a few turns later.
2-1
Nice guy to play against, and congratulated me on the win.

Round 2 UW Delver

G1 I combo'ed on my first turn, on the draw. He dazed a dark ritual, which I paid for with ESG. He then spell snared a cabal ritual. I actually had another dark ritual (explosive hand!) so I was still able to cast necro (with no mana floating). I paid down to 1 life, and he FoW'd it. N.B. For those doing the maths, that means of his 6 cards in hand, he had Daze, FoW + blue card (jace in this case), spell snare, and 2 others. That's 2/3's of his hand dedicated to countering. It turned out the other 2 were lands (he told me after). As such, too many counters to get through. He top-decked a delver a turn later, and finished me off with him (unflipped, which made it sting!)

G2 was a turn 1 delver, FoW back-up for my duress. T2 Stoneforge, who brought batterskull, with a daze back-up for my maelstrom pulse. Once batterskull started beating face, the writing was on the wall and I metaphorically scooped.

(0-2)

Round 3 Combo elves
Quiet chap, but friendly enough. Took me a while to figure out he had hearing issues, and could only 'hear' you if he was watching your lips. (total respect for being able to do that though!) Turns out he is almost completely deaf but took me a full game to realise!
G1 T1 I cast duress. He had no disruption, and I combo'ed 2nd turn for the win. He had the World's biggest smile when I delivered the final blow (soul-spike FTW!), and was close to applause. He asked me if I would give him the decklist when we finished, which I agreed to.

G2 slower game for both of us. He got a couple of nettle's elves out, but wasn't able to go off. I managed transmuted brainspoil for necrologia, used sensei's to help manage my draws, then went off on about turn 6.

Round 4 with Merfolk.
G1 Turn 1 combo on the play; I risked it, he didn't have the FoW. I won. Happy times.
Ended up casting Necrologia 3 times though, before I drew enough to kill him.

-4 duress, +4 pact of negation
G2 He owned me the way those silly blue fish can. First turn vial, and dazed my sensei's. I had a poor draw (I think I mulliganed to 5 this game) and just draw-go for a while. Nothing I could do.

G3 I went off turn 3, he left me to cast all my cantrips. He had 4 cards in hand, and I thought that there was a good chance he had a FoW seeing as he hadn't countered anything all game and he was on the draw.
I cast necro, paid all my life (17 I think seeing as I had been hit) and .... he cast FoW (exiling some random merfolk). I had pact of negation (that took him by surprise!), and so he, with 2 cards left in hand, cast ANOTHER FoW (exiling a 3rd FoW)... Fortunately, the last card in my hand was the 2nd Pact.

Best. Feeling. Ever.

Knowing that I would have to pay UUUU6 next upkeep, I just kep my fingers crossed I wouldn't fizzle.

I didn't, got the combo off, and Mr. Fish extended his hand.

I know it is not a Tier 1 deck, but I can highly recommend it for a (budget) deck that is challenging to play, unique and can pop wins out of nowhere.

If anyone does play it, can they post the report! I would be eager to hear any suggestions for improvement.

Thanks and, if you're still reading, I hope you enjoyed the tournament report.

Optml

[Mr. Safety]

After I saw the other thread in the casual forum, I've been thinking about a Necrologia deck for a while. I have to admit, the deck looks ABSURDLY fun to pilot.

Just a thought: does it auto-lose to burn?

[Kich867]

After I saw the other thread in the casual forum, I've been thinking about a Necrologia deck for a while. I have to admit, the deck looks ABSURDLY fun to pilot.

Just a thought: does it auto-lose to burn?

It shouldn't it wins at instant speed. In response to the bolts you mash out soul spikes and you're fine.

One thing I'm worried about with the deck is like. What if someone just counters your crop rotation? How reliant is it on crop rotation to go off?

[ajfirecracker]

It shouldn't it wins at instant speed. In response to the bolts you mash out soul spikes and you're fine.

One thing I'm worried about with the deck is like. What if someone just counters your crop rotation? How reliant is it on crop rotation to go off?

In response to Necrologia paying 19 life, Lightning Bolt (or Fireblast). You have to be more conservative with the Necrologias as a result.

This deck has a lot of spells that really want to be countered. Crop Rotation and Necrologia both require a heavy investment and risk, but have a potentially heavy reward.

[optml]

@MrSafety
It doesn't auto lose to burn, but it is more tricky to pilot as a result. I've won and lost to burn because of the amount of life I chose to use. One game I remember, he had just cast keldon marauders, and had tapped out. I decided to assume he had fireblast (2 mountains in play) so paid down to 5 life. I combo'ed (a bit more tricky, but managed) and when he lost he showed the fireblast in his hand.

The problem with necrologia as opposed to ad nauseum, is that if Ad N. is countered you lose 0 life, AND you can decide whether to risk another card, on a card-by-card basis. Necrologia is definitey an all-or-nothing (which, for the record, is my favourite kind of magic!!).

@ajfirecracker
True, it does fold to a lot of counters. But that is not all decks out there have counters. And if they don't play counterspells or discard, there is very little they can do to interact.
Just time your duresses and when they're tapped out to make your plays. Post board, slap in some more disruption, and hope for the best.

Also, something that I never mentioned in the tournament report, is when I would play grove (just from drawing it), EOT'ing a needletrap and then next turn combo-ing with necrologia. It means an additional 5 cards which can make all the difference!

I hope my 3-1 victory has inspired some people to at least try this deck!
Now that punishing fire is banned in modern, grove of the burnwillows has shot down in price. Apart from that, the most expensive cards are the elvish spirit guides or the one-off lake of the dead. It's definitely good 'bang-for-your-buck'.

[Kich867]

if they don't play counterspells or discard, there is very little they can do to interact.

Just note that, that is probably the single biggest "if" in magic the gathering.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm debating putting this thing together. I just got a set of Ad Nauseam as an impulse buy, so I might use 4x Necrologia and also some number of Ad Nauseam to increase consistency. Needlebite Trap/Soul Spike still gain you life, allowing for a decent amount of cards from AN.

I'm just throwing this out there: is there potential surrounding Tainted Sigil in the sideboard against aggressive strategies? It would essentially allow you to go nuts with Necrologia and then react to a burn spell by gaining a ton of life (essentially turning Necrologia into "4B: draw 19 cards")

[Kich867]

I'm debating putting this thing together. I just got a set of Ad Nauseam as an impulse buy, so I might use 4x Necrologia and also some number of Ad Nauseam to increase consistency. Needlebite Trap/Soul Spike still gain you life, allowing for a decent amount of cards from AN.

I'm just throwing this out there: is there potential surrounding Tainted Sigil in the sideboard against aggressive strategies? It would essentially allow you to go nuts with Necrologia and then react to a burn spell by gaining a ton of life (essentially turning Necrologia into "4B: draw 19 cards")

AdN can't really work. Soul spike costs 7 mana, there's so many huge casting cost cards in here you'd be dead by the 5th flip most of the time.

[nedleeds]

In response to Necrologia paying 19 life, Lightning Bolt (or Fireblast). You have to be more conservative with the Necrologias as a result.

This deck has a lot of spells that really want to be countered. Crop Rotation and Necrologia both require a heavy investment and risk, but have a potentially heavy reward.

Slow roll and Crop Rotation into Glacial Chasm :p

[Mr. Safety]

AdN can't really work. Soul spike costs 7 mana, there's so many huge casting cost cards in here you'd be dead by the 5th flip most of the time.

Then let me finish the thought (because I didn't before): adding Angel's Grace and Swords to Plowshares seems like strong tech. Swords satisfies the lifegain clause for Needlebite Trap and AG allows Ad Nauseam or Necrologia to draw your whole deck.

[Darkenslight]

Then let me finish the thought (because I didn't before): adding Angel's Grace and Swords to Plowshares seems like strong tech. Swords satisfies the lifegain clause for Needlebite Trap and AG allows Ad Nauseam or Necrologia to draw your whole deck.

The largest problem with that, I suspect, i8s that adding White as well dilutes the deck horribly. If only Grove of the Burnwillows produced White aman, instead of Red, it would probably be a valid alternative.

[Kich867]

Then let me finish the thought (because I didn't before): adding Angel's Grace and Swords to Plowshares seems like strong tech. Swords satisfies the lifegain clause for Needlebite Trap and AG allows Ad Nauseam or Necrologia to draw your whole deck.

I'm feeling like splashing white, as he mentioned above, may be hard to really pull off. You're going to run into crop rotations after you burn one of those spells in order to go off, but I guess if you wait until like turn 3 you can fetch for some scrublands, pop AG then go off..but I feel like that then relies almost too much on having AG + ADN in your hand you know?

I would try it out and see how it works but that may be clunky in the sense that you require too many specific cards and don't particularly run enough stuff to get it.

[Mr. Safety]

I was thinking mostly that Angel's Grace allows you to draw your whole deck and combo off with no fear of losing/fizzling. All you would need is some combination of Angel's Grace/Silence/Orim's Chant and Necrologia.

Angel's Grace >>> Necrologia >>> win...

I would be tempted to use Conflagrate instead of the other win conditions. It would only take a playset of Simian Spirit Guide to make it happen. A Lotus Petal and Silence protects the combo turn, Duress yourself to bin Conflagrate, double Simian Spirit Guide and discard 40+ cards FTW. This kind of closed-loop combo reminds me of Cephalid Breakfast where you only need to accomplish your 2-card combo and you can win on the spot. You're already in black, so you can have a ton of disruption protection. I would drop green altogether and use Necrologia alongside Angel's Grace and go with white, which I feel is stronger than Grove/Crop Rotation. If Silence gets countered, you're still making progress by fishing out counterspells. If Rotation gets countered, you're screwed. Silence is also a lot more powerful at stopping opposing combo decks, which is really what you need to make the deck viable IMHO.

Rough list:

4x Necrologia
2x Ad Nauseam
4x Angel's Grace
4x Silence
2x Orim's Chant
4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
4x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Conflagrate
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
1x Brainspoil
4x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Crystal Vein
2x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

[rufus]

Since Conflagrate is a sorcery, you'd have to do some gymastics in order to cast it during the end of turn step that Necrologia requires.

[Teknique]

Also, Angel's Grace won't work with Necrologia, you can't pay life you don't have even if you can't lose the game that turn. At best, it gives you 1 more card since you can pay down to 0.

However, it works fine with Ad Nauseum

[rufus]

Also, Angel's Grace won't work with Necrologia, you can't pay life you don't have even if you can't lose the game that turn. At best, it gives you 1 more card since you can pay down to 0.

However, it works fine with Ad Nauseum

Yeah, I almost suggested Children of Korlis but they're not instants either...

[bruizar]

@optml:

What are your thoughts on Punishing Fires in the sideboard as your main answer to creatures? Do you think it would sufficiently help you fight creatures such as delver, goblins, gaddock teeg, merfolk, etc, or would this not work in your deck?

[optml]

Great set of responses guys, I'm liking the way this thread is developing.

A few things I should say before I address individual comments. These are essentially 'limitations' of the deck, which need to be followed in order for the deck to be successful from my experience in testing.

1) It needs to win in the 'End-Step'
Any sorcery / creature / upkeep etc based threats will be too weak, as you will end up giving the opponent a whole turn when you are on 1 life. Far too many decks can win at this point (i.e. all of them, apart from maybe turbo-fog). This is the trickiest point, as it means that ALL storm based win cons (tendrils, empty the warrens, storm entity, etc. are unusable.)

2) Self-inflicted damage (apart from Necrologia) are to be avoided as it simply decreases the number of cards drawn. Things like dark confidant, thoughtseize, and possibly even fetch lands are risky.

With that in mind;

@Mr. Safety
Angel's grace doesn't work with necrologia, unfortunately, as Teknique mentioned below (it's actually a cards I considered before, and part of original decklist.) The deck you suggest below is interesting, and reminds me of the AdNauseum-Grace decks in Modern. I would suggest removing necrologia though, and taking it from there. It probably warrents its own thread, and could prove to be viable in legacy.

Also, Ad Nauseum without something like Angel's Grace is probably unplayable, as the only cards you want to draw when you combo, are 7 converted mana cost or more. So it would be impossible to combo off without some protection to your life-total, or previous lifegain.

Conflagrate is a great card with the AdNauseum/Grace combo, but unfortunately doesn't work with the necrologia/lose-life-in-your-end-step combo. On a side note though, (if you check earlier in this thread) I did look at making the deck R/B, ditching the crop-rotation combo altogether, and going for a red, 1-card-win-con in the form of lightning storm. I tested the deck and found it less reliable than the g/b version, but I'm happy to be proven wrong!

Which brings me back to the original combo of those 2 black instants; soul spike and needlebite trap. I have tried, as well, using the 2 card synergy of street wraith and noxious revival in order to reclaim the previously used spells. The only problem I came across was that, if we keep the body of the deck the same as originally (which I'm happy to alter if we find a more efficient method), there are actually very few slots available. The deck is built in such a way that we have about 7 slots to play with (in the current decklist, (see my previous post) I would sideboard out the duresses or the chancellor of the drosses, and replace with other more relevant protection. That means to include an extra colour (e.g. White) and a few extra cards (silence, swords to plowshares) may prove tricky, and mey end up diluting the deck.

@bruizar
I have to say that I REALLY like the punishing fire route. I have often found that their hate cards are in the form of wussy creatures, and had to sideboard in the expensive and non-repeatable maelstrom pulse. I will definitely be trying that out. I was happy when it was banned in modern as it decreased the cost of buying Groves, but it never crossed my mind to actually use them!

[Mr. Safety]

Great set of responses guys, I'm liking the way this thread is developing.

A few things I should say before I address individual comments. These are essentially 'limitations' of the deck, which need to be followed in order for the deck to be successful from my experience in testing.

1) It needs to win in the 'End-Step'
Any sorcery / creature / upkeep etc based threats will be too weak, as you will end up giving the opponent a whole turn when you are on 1 life. Far too many decks can win at this point (i.e. all of them, apart from maybe turbo-fog). This is the trickiest point, as it means that ALL storm based win cons (tendrils, empty the warrens, storm entity, etc. are unusable.)

2) Self-inflicted damage (apart from Necrologia) are to be avoided as it simply decreases the number of cards drawn. Things like dark confidant, thoughtseize, and possibly even fetch lands are risky.

With that in mind;

@Mr. Safety
Angel's grace doesn't work with necrologia, unfortunately, as Teknique mentioned below (it's actually a cards I considered before, and part of original decklist.) The deck you suggest below is interesting, and reminds me of the AdNauseum-Grace decks in Modern. I would suggest removing necrologia though, and taking it from there. It probably warrents its own thread, and could prove to be viable in legacy.

Also, Ad Nauseum without something like Angel's Grace is probably unplayable, as the only cards you want to draw when you combo, are 7 converted mana cost or more. So it would be impossible to combo off without some protection to your life-total, or previous lifegain.

Conflagrate is a great card with the AdNauseum/Grace combo, but unfortunately doesn't work with the necrologia/lose-life-in-your-end-step combo. On a side note though, (if you check earlier in this thread) I did look at making the deck R/B, ditching the crop-rotation combo altogether, and going for a red, 1-card-win-con in the form of lightning storm. I tested the deck and found it less reliable than the g/b version, but I'm happy to be proven wrong!

Which brings me back to the original combo of those 2 black instants; soul spike and needlebite trap. I have tried, as well, using the 2 card synergy of street wraith and noxious revival in order to reclaim the previously used spells. The only problem I came across was that, if we keep the body of the deck the same as originally (which I'm happy to alter if we find a more efficient method), there are actually very few slots available. The deck is built in such a way that we have about 7 slots to play with (in the current decklist, (see my previous post) I would sideboard out the duresses or the chancellor of the drosses, and replace with other more relevant protection. That means to include an extra colour (e.g. White) and a few extra cards (silence, swords to plowshares) may prove tricky, and mey end up diluting the deck.

@bruizar
I have to say that I REALLY like the punishing fire route. I have often found that their hate cards are in the form of wussy creatures, and had to sideboard in the expensive and non-repeatable maelstrom pulse. I will definitely be trying that out. I was happy when it was banned in modern as it decreased the cost of buying Groves, but it never crossed my mind to actually use them!

I was ruminating on this last night, and I realized the end-step clause AFTER posting. I forgot Necrologia had to be used during the end step, requiring an instant speed win-condition. I was trying so hard to find a way to draw the whole deck with no drawbacks. Ad Nauseam works just fine, but Necrologia is a bit of a challenge. Having the whole deck available means it can still be a closed loop, but at this point janky cards like Quicken become neccessary. The SSG's take care of Conflagrate's cost, but now those Lotus Petals are doing overtime by not only giving you the white for Silence and the black for Duress...but also now blue for Quicken! I suppose a single Manamorphose would do the trick. I'm pretty sure this is what you mean by 'gymnastics', making another janky card like Funeral Charm to be neccessary...this is the sequence that would have to happen:

1) Play Angel's Grace during a main phase along with at least one Lotus Petal
2) Ramp into Necrologia during the end step, draw your whole deck (all but 2 cards)
3) Crack Lotus Petal, play Quicken (if you're not playing against blue) OR Simian Spirit Guide + one floating mana to play Manamorphose for :u: and :w:
4) Play Silence, then Quicken (against blue)
5) Play Funeral Charm on myself to discard Conflagrate
6) Double Simian Spirit Guide into Conflagrate FTW.

Alternatively, it could go like this:

1) Play Angel's Grace
2) Ramp into Ad Nauseam, draw the whole deck
3) Play multiple Lotus Petals to play Silence, then Duress/Funeral Charm on myself to discard Conflagrate
4) Double SSG into Conflagrate FTW.

I would essentially have to squeeze in 1x Quicken, 1x Funeral Charm and 1x Manamorphose. It makes the combo more convoluted, but the whole reasoning behind it is that if you have Angel's Grace + Ad Nauseam OR Necrologia, you can win with those 2 cards. Once it evolves into a 3-card combo, it starts to lose it's power in the format. Funeral Charm is not a bad move though...it also kills many threats in the format.

Just some thoughts. I apologize if I am de-railing your thread...I will likely start a new thread if it gets to be overly annoying. Thanks for being patient with my ramblings.

[optml]

It's a very interesting direction you're going in. I like throwing in one card of each to sort out the combo.

But it is worth noting that my combo is actually a 1 card combo (resolving necrologia) to actually go off.

Once I go off, I cast crop rotation for grove and use the soul spike and needlebite trap for the win.

I would suggest trying it (either on workstation or proxying) and you may be surprised at how reliable it is, once you resolve necrologia.

My issue with your method is that Ad nauseum can't combo off on it's own with so many high cc cards. The other thing is in your little scenario (nice combo though!) what happens if they counter your manamorphose.

You can't get the white for silence, nor the blue for quicken. It seems just as reliant on a second card (or 3rd if it was Angel's grace and ad naus.)

Quicken is an interesting card that I'd not even heard of, let alone considered.
It would open the deck up to alternative win cons (e.g. spiralling embers, and the example you gave with conflagulate.) But, it would require an entire revamp.

I'm pretty happy with the decklist for my G/B version (thanks to the addition of punishing fire) so we can use this thread for expanding a version R/B/U/W hybrid.

As this an alternative to TES and ANT, it really does need to offer something that they don't. Perhaps more resilient (as you can use counterspells) more reliable (as you can use cantrips) or just more awesome (as this is a deck noone would have seen).

I personally like the 'more awesome' reason, but each his own.

Something to be wary of, is that only with the Ad Nauseam route would you draw your entire deck. The Necrologia route only grants access to about 1/3 of your deck. That means that any 1-of win-cons are particularly risky!

I would either go:

1) 100% Ad Grace deck (which I think I actually made a thread a while ago for) in which you omit necrologia and focus on 1-of's in the deck as you know you will draw the whole thing
or
2) do a hybrid in which you need 4-of's and not all your deck, so you can use necrologia.

Let's look at 2).

Perhaps go Quicken+Tendrils of agony?

Would that work, or would the storm versions not be cast?

The blue-black version would give access to protection (FoW, Pact of Negation), disruption (duress) and brainstorm.

Could be worth a look...

[bruizar]

The deck seems like a lot of fun. I don't know how good it is but I bought most of the cards I didn't have, so I can give the deck a spin when the cards arrive. Man, I'm even tempted to throw in a singleton Lich/Spinning Darkness but I won't go there :p Lightning Bolt and the rest of the format would pwn me hard.

[rufus]

...
Perhaps go Quicken+Tendrils of agony?

Would that work, or would the storm versions not be cast?

The blue-black version would give access to protection (FoW, Pact of Negation), disruption (duress) and brainstorm.

Could be worth a look...

You really want to be using Simian Spirit Guide or Elvish Spirit Guide to get your mana, while going off. Under those conditions, getting :u::b: is going to be a big challenge compared to just getting :b:.

Pursuing the tendrils route a bit further for the moment, you'll -roughly- want to see something like one of each of these cards:

Simian Spirit Guide
Elvish Spirit Guide
Manamorphose
Quicken
Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Tendrils of Agony

ESG/SSG, the rituals, and Manamorphose are pretty solid before you cast Necrologia, so running four of each isn't bad. Quicken and Tendrils of Agony would probably be 3-ofs.

Naively, the expected storm count is around 6 - three rituals, necrologia, manamorphose, and quicken, though it's very likely that you'll see a spare ritual or manamorphose, and Daze and Pact of Negation, and Misdirection can plausibly act as combo protection and storm padding. (Force of Will's life cost is a big negative in this deck.)

[kicks_422]

You really want to be using Simian Spirit Guide or Elvish Spirit Guide to get your mana, while going off. Under those conditions, getting :u::b: is going to be a big challenge compared to just getting :b:.

Pursuing the tendrils route a bit further for the moment, you'll -roughly- want to see something like one of each of these cards:

Simian Spirit Guide
Elvish Spirit Guide
Manamorphose
Quicken
Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Tendrils of Agony

ESG/SSG, the rituals, and Manamorphose are pretty solid before you cast Necrologia, so running four of each isn't bad. Quicken and Tendrils of Agony would probably be 3-ofs.

Naively, the expected storm count is around 6 - three rituals, necrologia, manamorphose, and quicken, though it's very likely that you'll see a spare ritual or manamorphose, and Daze and Pact of Negation, and Misdirection can plausibly act as combo protection and storm padding. (Force of Will's life cost is a big negative in this deck.)

You mean something like this? (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18226-Necro-2.0)

[rufus]

I was thinking more along these lines...


4 Personal Tutor
4 Necrologia
4 Brainstorm

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Manamorphose
3 Quicken
3 Tendrils of Agony

4 Pact of Negation

4 Lotus Petal

4 Underground Sea
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Sunken Ruins
2 Island


I may be doing my math wrong, but it looks like this isn't going to be very reliable. It really wants a bit more tutoring power instead of Brainstorm ... maybe Intuition.

[bruizar]

What are the alternatives to Brainspoil / Grim Tutor? Brainspoil doesn't strike me as great, and Grim Tutor is a little over my budget.\

Also, is there a way that Chancellor of the Dross can actually be played as an alternate kill? Perhaps using reanimate or animate dead? Soul Spike requires exiling the cards unfortunately, and Duress and Inquisition cannot discard Chancellor.

[wolfstorm]

I was thinking more along these lines...


4 Personal Tutor
4 Necrologia
4 Brainstorm

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Manamorphose
3 Quicken
3 Tendrils of Agony

4 Pact of Negation

4 Lotus Petal

4 Underground Sea
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Sunken Ruins
2 Island


I may be doing my math wrong, but it looks like this isn't going to be very reliable. It really wants a bit more tutoring power instead of Brainstorm ... maybe Intuition.


You know Personal tutor can not get necrolagia right?

[rufus]

You know Personal tutor can not get necrolagia right?

D'oh!

I guess that means a quicken/tendrils approach is stuck using Intuition or Cunning Wish. On a more positive note, those do work with LED...


4 Cunning Wish
4 Intuition
3 Necrologia

4 Lions' Eye Diamond

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Manamorphose

3 Quicken
3 Tendrils of Agony

4 Lotus Petal

4 Underground Sea
4 Darkslick Shores
4 City of Traitors
3 Island


...this looks pretty bad to me.

[optml]

It's always good to try different ideas, but I'm not sure that this version will be any better than my G/B one.

A couple of benefits of mine;

1) You can cast soulspike and needlebite PRIOR to comboing, if you've drawn them. It therefore lets you draw more cards (or survive longer) as they both gain you a lot of life.

2) The mana base if very stable, needing only 1 ESG or grove of the burnwillows, and everything else is a swamp (no wasteland shenanigans by your opponent, back to basics issues, etc.)

@bruizar
I like brainspoil; the tutoring aspect can not be countered, only stifled. The alternative ability of killing a creature (a.k.a. the actual ability) I've used a few times to get me out of a tough spot. Although the card seems slow, most of the time you only want to search for necrologia, and think how powerful grim tutor is! It is a grim tutor with an attached (albeit pricy) kill-spell.

Just to remind people that the original idea is still valid, if this one veers off course.

@kicks_422
I hadn't seen that previous post! That's so cool that other people have been trying to break highly limited but awesomely swanky card, necrologia!

[bruizar]

How much better is Grim Tutor than Brainspoil? The 3 life seems to matter a lot to this deck, but I can imagine tutoring for a pact of negation or something else outweighs this. In other words, how bad is the fact that Grim Tutor costs you 3 life to cast? Did you ever have any troubles with that?

[optml]

If I'm honest, brainspoil is working fine for me. Even if I owned a playset of grim tutors (which if I did I would just cash in and buy something of equal value... like a car) I would probably just use brainspoil. It does this trick, and it's funny to watch as people invariably have to take a second to read it as it's in no competitive legacy decks.

@bruizar
Have your cards arrived yet? I'm eager to hear your progress / tips / questions about playing the deck, once you've had a chance to test it.
I can assure you, the fun-factor is definitely there with this deck, even if the consistency is lacking.

[bruizar]

They haven't arrived yet. I bought some foils including a set of 7th foil Necrologia's, so I'll make pictures for the thread for shits and giggles. :-)

All that I am still missing is:
4 cabal ritual
2 soul spike
1 lake of the dead

But I want to get as many of those in foil (excluding lake ofcourse), so it may take a while before I can play the deck without proxies.

[1maarten1]

Necro incoming!:smile:

I was actually testing this again a couple days ago and it is a lot of fun! Some thoughts, I don't like chancellor's MD, so I cut those for 3 pacts main. Those are the only changes I made to the MD optml posted with which he played the tournament.

Sideboard:
I figured: we play 4 rotation, why not abuse some good lands with it?
Karakas - good against reanimator,hyper genesis and show and tell
Bojuka bog - good against reanimator, dredge
Maze of ith - good against those turn 1 delver plays, I know it doesn't produce mana which is bad but if it gets you 2 or 3 more top activations I think it is worth it.

For the rest:
4 leyline of sanctity against those nasty burn players
The 4th pact of negation
A couple of (3 or 4) Deathmarks against Teeg/Thalia/Canonist
And then 3 Inquisition of kozilek, which is better against decks not playing counters.

Let me know what you think!

[evanmartyr]

I would be loathe to run a sideboard that doesn't have some kind of answer for Leyline of Sanctity from your opponent.

[1maarten1]

I would be loathe to run a sideboard that doesn't have some kind of answer for Leyline of Sanctity from your opponent.

I haven't seen any leylines in my past 5 tournaments so I was going to leave it out, but you can easily substitute the Inquisitions for Nature's claim

[ReinVos]

Would Cabal Therapy be good in this deck? Coupled with Xantid Swarms from the board and a Dryad Arbor in the main? It can be played alongside Duress. It can hit FoW without paying life and can hit multiple copies of cards as well as flashback. I like how Xantid Swarm and Therapy work well together.

I also think it's better to drain them out than to use the Quicken>Tendrils kill. I'm not sure which kill requires more slots but it seems a much more reliable kill. You don't need to worry about blue mana and storm counts of 10. You'll also lose the ability of casting multiple Necrologias.

EDIT: How good is one City of Traitors to be able to go off on turn two with two lands, a Ritual and a Crop Rotation? I think it's good to have that option available with Crop Rotation. Sure, turn three you can start rotating for Lake of the Dead but on turn two it's not as useful pre combo. City might be very helpful! Rotating into City might also be useful in protecting us from taxing counters.

[1maarten1]

Incoming Necro. What about Dark Petition as a substitute for Grim Tutor? And perhaps there is room for Gitaxian probe?

[rufus]

Incoming Necro. What about Dark Petition as a substitute for Grim Tutor? ...

Dark Petition is a sorcery. So the mana kickback doesn't work well with Necrologia's timing restriction.

[MaximumC]

That doesn't work due to the errata on Lake of the Dead. You have to sacrifice a swamp before it even enters the battlefield.

...which is a stupid errata, but is maintained because if you start fixing the Alliance lands, then you will get endless whining about their Weatherlight cousins (Lotus Vale and Scorched Ruins) and you don't want to let THOSE suckers out of the box.

[movingtonewao]

Is anyone still testing necrologia right now? I chanced upon this thread and it seems fun. Just wondering if there's any way of making it more resilient outside of planting a boseiju in.

[atosecond]

I experimented with Beacon of Immortality + False Cure as an alternate win con.

It was bad and didn't work out, basically made the deck a worse Belcher/SI/Oops.

There were too many issues with getting white mana for Beacon (reliant on Manamorphose) and you couldn't fire off multiple necrologia's like you can in the soul spike version. I had meant to try testing them as cunning wish targets as this cuts down on unnecessary chaff in the maindeck albeit at the cost of perhaps overtaxing the manamorphoses.

I was also playing about with the land count and feel that somewhere around 14 is probably right for the deck.

I was always unimpressed with cabal ritual as it felt lackluster when trying to ritual into necrologia (it is fine if you resolve one however) and was looking at adding seething song/manamorphose before I went off down the Beacon/Cure tangent.

Pact of negation is good in this deck.

[shaggai]

OK tried the original Golgari design of the deck with some modifications. I wanted to have at least another way to win apart from the need for multiple (or just lucky) Necrologias in a given end step. My choice for that plan was Nefarious Lich. This way the Necrologia can act as a spark plug to get you a critical mass of cards and use the drain spells to give you more cards which then will translate to more drain rather than using the drain to get you more life which can then get you more cards using another Necrologia). It also means that you don't necessarily have to combo off in the end step provided a Nefarious Lich can come down on the following turn and you have a way to drain life to start the cascade effect or your combo off will be immensely easier if the Nefarious Lich is in play.

Alas, a dismal failure against: Mentor Miracles-Bomberman, Miracles, Burn and 4-color Loam in my Saturday Legacy Tournament at the LGS. The only matchup where everything seemed to work sort of expected was game two against burn - which also was the only one game I was able to get the Nefarious Lich in play (which is actually the only one sign of hope I see). Probably could have won that game if not for a lucky top deck of Searing Blaze to kill my Elvish Spirit Guide blocker, deal me three points, and allow a Goblin Guide to continue to hit along with a Sulfuric Vortex in play....

This is what I used- I'll post the revisions once I think about reworking the manabase and spells...
2 Nefarious Lich
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Soul Spike
4 Needlebite Trap
4 Brainspoil
4 Necrologia
4 Crop Rotation
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Lake of the Dead
6 Swamp
3 Dark Petition
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Lotus Petal
3 Bayou
3 Duress
2 Extirpate
3 Pact of Negation

[atosecond]

My choice for that plan was Nefarious Lich.

Cavius is that you?

[shaggai]

Cavius is that you?

Nope, I'm not him - but I guess someone else had the same idea. I'm going to try the following list this Saturday and see if it can fare better - it's isn't that much different, just reworked mana and numbers change on several cards. Mana seemed better on a few cockatrice goldfishes, I'll have to see how it fares live...

3 Nefarious Lich
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Soul Spike
4 Needlebite Trap
2 Brainspoil
3 Necrologia
2 Crop Rotation
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Lake of the Dead
7 Swamp
2 Dark Petition
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Lotus Petal
3 Bayou
3 Duress
2 Extirpate
3 Pact of Negation
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats

Note that the fetchland base is more of an attempt to create a ruse as to what I'm playing - I only want swamps. I was thinking about a Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth instead of a swamp could depend on meta. Lastly (and obviously) if I had Grim Tutors they would replace the Brainspoil as I only see the brainspoil as a tutor effect via transmute.

[Fox]

If you're actually using Lich cards, Horizon Chimera is something you should be considering for obvious reasons. "Deckropotence" being chimera + Lich - drawing 1 cards means pick up your whole deck card by card [this is where Savage Summoning and Laboratory Maniac come in]. This mitigates counterspells, and any instant speed draw effect counters any removal spells, as they are buried beneath "you win the game" effects. It's a different deck than killing a life total, but is friendlier to cantrips; it should however feel basically the same in the manner in which it goes off. As a *really* rough draft working in some cards from your lists:

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Lake of the Dead
4x Lotus Petal
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Horizon Chimera
1x Laboratory Maniac

4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Duress
1x Savage Summoning
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Lich
2x Lim-Dul's Vault
3x Necrologia

Other cards to think about with your overall idea would be Aluren, Squandered Resources, and Cadaverous Bloom

[TheG]

Hi! i want to discuss with you my take on necrologia.deck :D

First of all...the wincon: Pulse of The Forge: Instant 20 Damage x 15 Mana Easy-Peasy

Second: we need 10 R mana to kill the opponent, so all instant-speed rituals in R are in. Pyretic Ritual, Seething Song and Desperate Ritual

Third: we need 5 colorless mana too, and black mana to cast the draw engine FAST, so black rituals are in + something to help the mana screw with all those R rituals.
Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual and Manamorphose

Forth: obv the Draw Engine. Our beloved Necrologia

Fifth: No time to think, 1-card-combo deck and fast necrologia equals more cards.. So we need it asap. why bother with cantrips when you can have it directly? Rhystic Tutor or Brainspoil to be cast on T1 with rituals.

Sixth: We need some mana to begin with, so a little manabase would help.
Simian Spirit Guide, Badlands and Bloodstained Mire

The core of the deck it's defined.

4 Pulse of the Forge
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Necrologia
4 Rhystic Tutor
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire

------------- 48 cards

Then you can opt for a more Blecher-ish reckless version with:
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact


Or board some protection and act slower:
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
-4 Rhystic Tutor
4 Brainspoil

[Blastoderm]

Hi! i want to discuss with you my take on necrologia.deck :D

First of all...the wincon: Pulse of The Forge: Instant 20 Damage x 15 Mana Easy-Peasy

Second: we need 10 R mana to kill the opponent, so all instant-speed rituals in R are in. Pyretic Ritual, Seething Song and Desperate Ritual

Third: we need 5 colorless mana too, and black mana to cast the draw engine FAST, so black rituals are in + something to help the mana screw with all those R rituals.
Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual and Manamorphose

Forth: obv the Draw Engine. Our beloved Necrologia

Fifth: No time to think, 1-card-combo deck and fast necrologia equals more cards.. So we need it asap. why bother with cantrips when you can have it directly? Rhystic Tutor or Brainspoil to be cast on T1 with rituals.

Sixth: We need some mana to begin with, so a little manabase would help.
Simian Spirit Guide, Badlands and Bloodstained Mire

The core of the deck it's defined.

4 Pulse of the Forge
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Necrologia
4 Rhystic Tutor
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire

------------- 48 cards

Then you can opt for a more Blecher-ish reckless version with:
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact


Or board some protection and act slower:
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
-4 Rhystic Tutor
4 Brainspoil


Neat idea! Only problem I see is the following:

You don't have many permanent mana sources (a total of 8) for tutoring and passing the turn. Tutoring for Necrolagia and casting it on the same turn will cost a whopping total of 8 mana (note you don't have LED) - you can't even float mana because you have to change phase after casting Tutor. Furthermore, you only play 8 "business" spells (rhystic tutor+necrolagia). By comparison, Belcher plays 11.

[atosecond]

Hi! i want to discuss with you my take on necrologia.deck :D

First of all...the wincon: Pulse of The Forge: Instant 20 Damage x 15 Mana Easy-Peasy

Second: we need 10 R mana to kill the opponent, so all instant-speed rituals in R are in. Pyretic Ritual, Seething Song and Desperate Ritual

Third: we need 5 colorless mana too, and black mana to cast the draw engine FAST, so black rituals are in + something to help the mana screw with all those R rituals.
Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual and Manamorphose

Forth: obv the Draw Engine. Our beloved Necrologia

Fifth: No time to think, 1-card-combo deck and fast necrologia equals more cards.. So we need it asap. why bother with cantrips when you can have it directly? Rhystic Tutor or Brainspoil to be cast on T1 with rituals.

Sixth: We need some mana to begin with, so a little manabase would help.
Simian Spirit Guide, Badlands and Bloodstained Mire

The core of the deck it's defined.

4 Pulse of the Forge
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Necrologia
4 Rhystic Tutor
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire

------------- 48 cards

Then you can opt for a more Blecher-ish reckless version with:
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact


Or board some protection and act slower:
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
-4 Rhystic Tutor
4 Brainspoil




This is a very similar list to what I tried above with Beacon+False Cure which required less mana and had some protection albeit it required you to find two cards. I think the trouble is 19 cards is really not enough to ensure you don't whiff. The strength of the soul spike version is it can rebuild it's life total to fire off a second necro, which is something you cannot do with pulse of the forge.

In playing that deck I also came to the conclusion that seething song is surprisingly good in this deck if you are trying to power things out quickly, but I nevertheless think the consistency issues of needing to win with just an additional 19 cards off the top is too high a burden for this deck to achieve. 10R is pretty hard to get to and the initial mana you require to start firing off rituals means that you need to be able produce at least 4BBR (or get lucky with spirit guides) before firing off the necrologia which is a tall ask.

I suspect if you test this you will find (like I did with Beacon+Cure) it doesn't work nearly as well as it sounds like it should.

[optml]

Hi all,

I'm the guy who started this thread; really chuffed it's suddenly seeing some interest!

I've had a thought how to get searchers for Necro.

Here's something I've been brewing up; keen to hear thoughts. Essentially, it uses recross the paths to reorder the library. So you can either use necrologia as usual, or cast recross the paths for a slower but guaranteed (over the next turn or so) win.

So... without further ado:

combo:

4x Necrologia
4x Quicken
4x Manamorphose
4x Tendrils of Agony
4x Recross the Paths

Mana:
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x Summoning Pact (for Elvish Spirit Guide)
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

Protection:
4x Pact of Negation
4x Autumn's Veil


It wins by casting quicken into tendrils, after a successful recross and / necrologia.

Slightly different angle, agreed, but happy to discuss.

Note; not happy with Lion's Eye, but can't think of a better card until they print Zombie Spirit Guide. We need to get the mana to cast necrologia, which is high - 3 from LED is too slow as it needs to be cracked after casting.

[Cero]

Wouldn't Leyline of Anticipation be better than Quicken? You can drop Lotus Petals or Moxen after a resolving a Necro helping with the mana problems.

[atosecond]

Hi all,

I'm the guy who started this thread; really chuffed it's suddenly seeing some interest!

I've had a thought how to get searchers for Necro.

Here's something I've been brewing up; keen to hear thoughts. Essentially, it uses recross the paths to reorder the library. So you can either use necrologia as usual, or cast recross the paths for a slower but guaranteed (over the next turn or so) win.

So... without further ado:

combo:

4x Necrologia
4x Quicken
4x Manamorphose
4x Tendrils of Agony
4x Recross the Paths

Mana:
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x Summoning Pact (for Elvish Spirit Guide)
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

Protection:
4x Pact of Negation
4x Autumn's Veil


It wins by casting quicken into tendrils, after a successful recross and / necrologia.

Slightly different angle, agreed, but happy to discuss.

Note; not happy with Lion's Eye, but can't think of a better card until they print Zombie Spirit Guide. We need to get the mana to cast necrologia, which is high - 3 from LED is too slow as it needs to be cracked after casting.
It is an interesting idea and forgive me for committing the sin of commenting without testing, but isn't this just worse than the original combo and/or ANT and/or TES?

I feel like the chance of whiffing is pretty high and you have no way to renecro in the turn you are trying to go off (draws of tendrils, manamorphose, quicken, a spirit guide and necrologia with sufficient rituals to make 10 mana [tendrils, necrologia, +1 for manamorphose] seem rare).

I think the soul spike route is best however after a lot of testing the only real conclusion I have is while necrologia is powerful I am not sure that the right set of cards currently exist to break it. Another instant black ritual would help.

Two more considerations for interested brewers. Kaervek's spite is actually not bad and can get there. Shallow grave and children of korlis may enable you to refuel for two extra black mana (may benefit storm/combo builds).