Did WoTC do this right?

[Esper3k]

Been seeing this across a couple sites recently and figured I'd post it in the Community board since it's MTG related.

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/player-receives-lifetime-ban-for-threatening-wizards-employee/

Was WoTC correct? I personally think what they did was fine. Have a harsh policy on things like this because the one time it's not a "joke" and they didn't do something about it, then that's when the big trouble starts...

[Ahab]

The comments are hilarious:
-RAPE IS NOT A JOKE
-IT WAS JUST A JOKE
repeat.

[catmint]

Yes. Nobody should be allowed to joke about raping a woman.
It's also close to a criminal offense.

[OurSerratedDust]

Yeah, I fully support Wizards on this. What an idiot.

[caiomarcos]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/search.php?searchid=280833

[Richard Cheese]

Why is it French players that seem to be screwing themselves royally lately?

[clavio]

I agree what he did should have been punished but a lifetime ban seems too steep. Im sure something like a two year ban should be enough to teach him a lesson.

[SpikeyMikey]

Rape is no laughing matter... Unless you're raping a clown.



Debating over whether or not the threat was a joke or even over whether or not rape jokes are funny or acceptable (I imagine you can figure out my stance on that last question) is missing the point entirely. This reminds me a great deal of the Wescoe/Levin situation. It's obviously not a credible threat. Nobody of any intelligence is going to threaten to rape someone over a public forum and then go through with the act. It would make getting caught a certainty. If you were planning on some sort of violent act against an individual because of their actions, you would either threaten them anonymously (magazine cut-out letter, untraceable email, etc.) or not threaten them at all.

Since it's not a credible threat, it was probably just something to get attention. He said something shocking designed to grab attention because he was unhappy with Helene. Wishing bad things on people is a time-honored tradition that dates back long before the internet, and while it's not the most pleasant part of our civilization, it's rarely actually harmful.

A lifetime ban seems excessive, but then again, so did the disqualification of Drew Levin. Wizards' is not really known for their common sense.

[troopatroop]

So unbelievably wrong. The guy raped noone! It was a joke taken too far. This is unbelievable to me.

[Koby]

A lifetime ban seems excessive, but then again, so did the disqualification of Drew Levin. Wizards' is not really known for their common sense.

To be fair, removing a huge portion of the Organized Play hierarchy also seems excessive, and doesn't make any common sense when profits are at an all time high.

Back on topic, WotC did the right thing. The threat of violence and malice should be enough to warrant a ban. It is the criminal's stupidity that linked him to the threat.

[SpikeyMikey]

To be fair, removing a huge portion of the Organized Play hierarchy also seems excessive, and doesn't make any common sense when profits are at an all time high.

Back on topic, WotC did the right thing. The threat of violence and malice should be enough to warrant a ban. It is the criminal's stupidity that linked him to the threat.

The thing was, it wasn't a credible threat. If I say "Ruckus, if I ever see you, I'm going to punch you in the nose", are you going to feel threatened? Probably not. Given the circumstances, it seems unlikely that I'm actually going to punch you in the nose.

[kiblast]

Umh, I don't get this. While I find the joke rather idiot, I think it's absolutely clear that it's a joke and nothing else. And it should be obvious that it's not possible to punish someone for a joke regarding a criminal offence, if no criminal/illicit action was involved.
That's just plain dumb and exagerated.

[Esper3k]

The thing was, it wasn't a credible threat. If I say "Ruckus, if I ever see you, I'm going to punch you in the nose", are you going to feel threatened? Probably not. Given the circumstances, it seems unlikely that I'm actually going to punch you in the nose.

The situation is different though.

You guys "know" each other from this board at least and can casually speak to each other. Florent claims he knew her, but we haven't heard any evidence supporting that.

Second, he's making this "joke" after being clearly very upset. It'd be like Rukcus doing something to piss you off first, then you posting on here saying "Rukcus, I'm going to go to the next tournament you're at and fuck you up to make you pay for what you did."

Finally, there's still the general policy decision aspect. I think that Wizards has to respond to things like this harshly because if they don't and the one time some crazy idiot does actually follow through with their threat, WoTC is going to have some major issues on its hands.

[betterthenandrew]

Yes. Nobody should be allowed to joke about raping a woman.
It's also close to a criminal offense.

Couldn't agree more. I really don't see why people are even discussing this, what he did was so far out of line. I would be upset if he didn't receive the lifetime ban. That's all I have to say on the subject. I think that is all there is to say on the subject.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Makes me think of the threads on here about JVL smoking bowls.

Doesn't he technically work for Wizards?

Is this a good image for a family company?

[I am the brainwasher]

I think that they overreacted on that but they kinda had to, because it is nearly impossible to filter out kids/youngsters in forums which might get some bad influence via this, besides thats a topic which should not be made of, especially when it points (even if its a joke) at real life persons.
In general I am quite confused why it is possible then to read comments on TheSource like: I would kill for card X/Y (example: ... a black Brainstorm) etc. without getting actual feedback/penalties from WotC.
I mean if you really want to go that far, it is some kind of threaten to the cards creators life and the design team as well. Sure that sounds (and is also) stupid but I can see some similarities in terms of exaggerating things to an extend that doesnt make as much as it should be.
I do not know how true the prejudice about americans beeing super sensitive about sexual things in public really is, (and it is not my concern if its the case or not) but that also might have took a small role in terms how the judgement on that guy was, also.
Regardless of that, I can understand the step they took and it is their responsibility because of the agegroup the game has and how big Magic is in general and how influential forum activity is on younger players.

[Esper3k]

I think that they overreacted on that but they kinda had to, because it is nearly impossible to filter out kids/youngsters in forums which might get some bad influence via this, besides thats a topic which should not be made of, especially when it points (even if its a joke) at real life persons.
In general I am quite confused why it is possible then to read comments on TheSource like: I would kill for card X/Y (example: ... a black Brainstorm) etc. without getting actual feedback/penalties from WotC.
I mean if you really want to go that far, it is some kind of threaten to the cards creators life and the design team as well. Sure that sounds (and is also) stupid but I can see some similarities in terms of exaggerating things to an extend that doesnt make as much as it should be.
I do not know how true the prejudice about americans beeing super sensitive about sexual things in public really is, (and it is not my concern if its the case or not) but that also might have took a small role in terms how the judgement on that guy was, also.
Regardless of that, I can understand the step they took and it is their responsibility because of the agegroup the game has and how big Magic is in general and how influential forum activity is on younger players.

I can explain the difference between the example you used with the Black Brainstorm vs the current situation.

The "I'd kill for X" statement is an American colloquial term meaning you really really want X.

Also, the statement under discussion was directed at a specific person - not only that, an employee of WoTC.

[Koby]

Also, the statement under discussion was directed at a specific person - not only that, an employee of WoTC.

The crux of the decision. It's one thing to say "R&D are a bunch of idiots. They need to retire." and "Tom LaPille needs a permanent 'vacation'."

The player chose to call out the individual by name with a threat of violence.

[Sims]

Couldn't agree more. I really don't see why people are even discussing this, what he did was so far out of line. I would be upset if he didn't receive the lifetime ban. That's all I have to say on the subject. I think that is all there is to say on the subject.

Next time I see you I'm going to Rape you.

[Picc]

I'm coming down on the side of excessive punishment (seems like Hasbro legal is engaging in cya). I mean really do any of us believe this was anything more then something stupid said on the internet. Honestly if people are going to get banned for stupid things said on the internet I suspect we might as well throw out our DCI cards now, we've all been guilty at some point.

[John Cox]

I'm coming down on the side of excessive punishment (seems like Hasbro legal is engaging in cya). I mean really do any of us believe this was anything more then something stupid said on the internet. Honestly if people are going to get banned for stupid things said on the internet I suspect we might as well throw out our DCI cards now, we've all been guilty at some point.

This was more than something stupid, the guy made a threat, that's serious.

[Aggro_zombies]

Finally, there's still the general policy decision aspect. I think that Wizards has to respond to things like this harshly because if they don't and the one time some crazy idiot does actually follow through with their threat, WoTC is going to have some major issues on its hands.
Really, though, lifetime banning someone is not going to stop them from carrying through a rape threat if that was their actual intention. In fact, you could argue that someone who is upset and saying things only in half-jest could be pushed over the edge by such a ban.

That said, Wizards certainly wants to send a message here that making threats against employees, "joke" or otherwise, is not going to be permitted. Even if he was joking (and let's be clear here, "it was a joke" is right up there on the Credible Excuses list with "I can't recall," and "It was just a rogue trader"), there are more constructive ways to vent your anger with the Organized Play changes than saying you're going to stick your dick in WotC employees.

[Sims]

On a more constructive note: Anything can be funny, even if it is about rape.

In this particular case the joke was tasteless and not funny, but that doesn't automatically write off rape as a subject that is ineligible for humor. People joke about nuclear war, the holocaust, racism, sexism, religion, etc... but for whateveer reason Rape is a no-no? GTFO.


Now, that all said, I do agree with WOTC's decision. Joke or not, it was still a threat of violence or illegal act against a WotC employee and if I were in charge I would take that alleged threat/joke quite seriously. Doesn't mean the guy couldn't have been joking, however.

[SpikeyMikey]

I can explain the difference between the example you used with the Black Brainstorm vs the current situation.

The "I'd kill for X" statement is an American colloquial term meaning you really really want X.

Also, the statement under discussion was directed at a specific person - not only that, an employee of WoTC.

Take the joke I posted at the beginning of my first post in this topic:

Rape is no laughing matter... Unless you're raping a clown.

Now if I were to inject a real name in there, say "Bozo the Clown", it's still not a threat, even though it's directed at a real person (although I think Bozo is probably dead now). I'm sure that at some point in the last decade, I've said or wrote that I'd like to kill MaRo and/or Tom LaPille. However, I don't actually pose a threat to either of those individuals. Even if I had the means to kill one or both of them without getting caught, I wouldn't. And I would think that a reasonable individual would recognize that if I posted something along those lines.

Saying "I'm so mad I could rape/murder/beat up/spit on person X" is just as much a hyperbole as "I would kill to have X".

Now what he said was not a joke. If it were a joke, there would be an intent to provide humor/laughs. It was obviously not meant to be a joke. No matter what your taste in humor, nothing about that fits the pattern of a joke. Jokes make light of a situation. He wasn't making light of a situation. There was no irony. There were no stereotypes. There was no pun. Thus, not a joke.

It was not a threat either, however. A threat would be a statement made to convey a promise of an action that negatively affects the threatened individual or group at a later time. There is no promise of action there. No reasonable person could construe what he wrote as intent to actually rape a Wizards' employee. It was obvious hyperbole.

And saying that it was necessary to set a strong general policy is silly. A 0-tolerance stance on something like this makes as much sense as expelling a 2nd grader under the sexual harassment policy for kissing another 2nd grader. We're intelligent individuals. We can make pretty good guesses at the intentions of others. A heavy-handed, draconian policy is not only nonsensical, it's insulting.

[Mr Miagi]

Well, the wizards pretty much "raped" the OP.. They announced the changes with no vaseline.. some of the pros and wannabe pros are still crying to their moms about it..


On a more serious note, I feel disgusted.. by both parties. I don't know the French guy, but it was a bit douchy what he said, rape and stuff, bit tasteles.. but then again in my community we make rude, your moma and gay jokes all the time so.. I'm pretty used to it.

The wizards reaction was an "overkill" and they basicly did it in a manner to silence all the "sheeps".. Did they have the reason/basis to do what they did? Yes (although a bit shaky one, since you can't take a rape statment from some1 playing geeky game to seriously.. it just ain't happening.. lol) Did they had to do what they did .. No, as it was clearly a bad joke.. but they decided to walk that route anyway just to manifest their power.. although their true intentions were masked into something more noble..

ps: wizards if you read this, please don't ban me :cry:
ps2: or ban me and I'll finally stop raping my wallet for your products :eyebrow:

[TooCloseToTheSun]

@SpikeyMikey
Didn't you get banned from salvation for basically the same thing? I thought that joke was funny but there mods apparently not so much. I think they, like wizards, over reacted a little.

[Esper3k]

Really, though, lifetime banning someone is not going to stop them from carrying through a rape threat if that was their actual intention. In fact, you could argue that someone who is upset and saying things only in half-jest could be pushed over the edge by such a ban.


Certainly, but I guess then on the other hand, what is WoTC to do about this? I think it's pretty clear that even if the person wouldn't actually be following through with their threat, WoTC doesn't want people like that at their events.


Take the joke I posted at the beginning of my first post in this topic:

Rape is no laughing matter... Unless you're raping a clown.

Now if I were to inject a real name in there, say "Bozo the Clown", it's still not a threat, even though it's directed at a real person (although I think Bozo is probably dead now). I'm sure that at some point in the last decade, I've said or wrote that I'd like to kill MaRo and/or Tom LaPille. However, I don't actually pose a threat to either of those individuals. Even if I had the means to kill one or both of them without getting caught, I wouldn't. And I would think that a reasonable individual would recognize that if I posted something along those lines.

Saying "I'm so mad I could rape/murder/beat up/spit on person X" is just as much a hyperbole as "I would kill to have X".

Now what he said was not a joke. If it were a joke, there would be an intent to provide humor/laughs. It was obviously not meant to be a joke. No matter what your taste in humor, nothing about that fits the pattern of a joke. Jokes make light of a situation. He wasn't making light of a situation. There was no irony. There were no stereotypes. There was no pun. Thus, not a joke.

It was not a threat either, however. A threat would be a statement made to convey a promise of an action that negatively affects the threatened individual or group at a later time. There is no promise of action there. No reasonable person could construe what he wrote as intent to actually rape a Wizards' employee. It was obvious hyperbole.

And saying that it was necessary to set a strong general policy is silly. A 0-tolerance stance on something like this makes as much sense as expelling a 2nd grader under the sexual harassment policy for kissing another 2nd grader. We're intelligent individuals. We can make pretty good guesses at the intentions of others. A heavy-handed, draconian policy is not only nonsensical, it's insulting.

Florent was going to be going to Worlds, where he said he was going to carry out his threat at. At which point does the threat become credible?

And really, why would WoTC want to really go out of their way to give leeway to someone like that? I'm pretty certain this isn't really going to have any sort of negative impact on their business whereas going too soft on it could very well do so.

[SpikeyMikey]

@SpikeyMikey
Didn't you get banned from salvation for basically the same thing? I thought that joke was funny but there mods apparently not so much. I think they, like wizards, over reacted a little.

I did, actually. Some guy had gotten bawled out for saying he got raped in a match in the online tournament we were participating in. I thought it was ridiculous and made some comment about it involving raping the mod's mother. Actually now that I think about it, I think it was saying I wished someone would murder the mod's children.

[KevinTrudeau]

WotC did not do right in banning him for life, but they did do right in banning him for a nonzero interval of time. Dude was fucking up.

[SpikeyMikey]

Just in case there was any question as to the integrity of Wizards' OP, they've put it to rest. If you're a high profile pro who has possibly cheated his way to tens of thousands of dollars and the HoF and you finally get caught, you get 18 months. If you're a low profile player and make an off-color comment, it's life. Yup, no questions about WotC's integrity.

[Octopusman]

They made the right decision.

[Koby]

Just in case there was any question as to the integrity of Wizards' OP, they've put it to rest. If you're a high profile pro who has possibly cheated his way to tens of thousands of dollars and the HoF and you finally get caught, you get 18 months. If you're a low profile player and make an off-color comment, it's life. Yup, no questions about WotC's integrity.

Contrast this with PTR. Sometimes the game needs a villian. The game doesn't need criminals.

EDIT: Maybe not everyone know about PTR.

http://thestarkingtonpost.com/articles/_/534

[Ahab]

They just decided that they didn't want him at their events/games. It's not like he's not allowed to drive or enter public buildings. If I invite 100 people to my house for a night of tabletennis and someone behaves incorrectly, I will throw that person out. It sucks that he's professional player, but really, he practically threatened his employer.
It's not a question of rape jokes being funny or not. Wizards don't think they're funny, and that's the only thing that matters.

[thecrav]

Yes. Nobody should be allowed to joke about raping a woman.
It's also close to a criminal offense.

How long have we been at war with Eastasia?


Rape is no laughing matter... Unless you're raping a clown.


Someone beat me to it :/

[wolfstorm]

I'm coming down on the side of excessive punishment (seems like Hasbro legal is engaging in cya). I mean really do any of us believe this was anything more then something stupid said on the internet. Honestly if people are going to get banned for stupid things said on the internet I suspect we might as well throw out our DCI cards now, we've all been guilty at some point.

QFT... Pretty much exactly what he said is how I feel

[dschalter]

Just in case there was any question as to the integrity of Wizards' OP, they've put it to rest. If you're a high profile pro who has possibly cheated his way to tens of thousands of dollars and the HoF and you finally get caught, you get 18 months. If you're a low profile player and make an off-color comment, it's life. Yup, no questions about WotC's integrity.

This is a terrible comparison.

[alphacat]

1. Rape can be used as a joke, so can 9/11. Basically, anything can be humorous, that's exactly what humor is, it's not supposed to have boundaries.

2. It was clearly not a threat, the guy deserved to be punished, but lifetime ban is a little too much.

[dontbiteitholmes]

WotC/Hasbro is a company first and foremost. Some people might get shit twisted because it is a gaming company but when you get right down to it WotC has to answer for every decision it makes directly to Hasbro. If you got invited to the Monopoly world championships and said jokingly you were going to rape the head judge because he decided to use house rules for the free parking space you can imagine what would happen. If you got invited to a Wal-Mart public event and said you were going to rape the regional manager because he raised the price on Apple Jacks you can imagine what would happen. If an NBA player said he was going to rape David Stern because of the lockout you can imagine what would happen.

Pretty much any other scenario not involving WotC ends in an obvious harsh sentence. He can always appeal the decision but at the end of the day if WotC hit him with a slap on the wrist or still let him attend Worlds they were going to get a call from some suit at Hasbro asking why the hell they let that comment slide.

[stealth]

Way too harsh, even a 2 year ban would have pulled him into line quick smart.

[TheShaun]

Just imagine the (probably unlikely) possibility if they hadn't banned him, and he went on to actually physically rape her... Although it was extremely unlikely to actually happen, what if it did? Then you have a guy threatening to rape a woman, WotC flying him across the world to help find her, and inviting him to the same venue that she'll be in. I think the fear of this situation, however remote, makes their decision completely worth it.

[caiomarcos]

Just imagine the (probably unlikely) possibility if they hadn't banned him, and he went on to actually physically rape her... Although it was extremely unlikely to actually happen, what if it did? Then you have a guy threatening to rape a woman, WotC flying him across the world to help find her, and inviting him to the same venue that she'll be in. I think the fear of this situation, however remote, makes their decision completely worth it.

Thinking about it made me laugh. Those scenes played out in my head like a bad comedy movie.

[SpikeyMikey]

WotC/Hasbro is a company first and foremost. Some people might get shit twisted because it is a gaming company but when you get right down to it WotC has to answer for every decision it makes directly to Hasbro. If you got invited to the Monopoly world championships and said jokingly you were going to rape the head judge because he decided to use house rules for the free parking space you can imagine what would happen. If you got invited to a Wal-Mart public event and said you were going to rape the regional manager because he raised the price on Apple Jacks you can imagine what would happen. If an NBA player said he was going to rape David Stern because of the lockout you can imagine what would happen.

Pretty much any other scenario not involving WotC ends in an obvious harsh sentence. He can always appeal the decision but at the end of the day if WotC hit him with a slap on the wrist or still let him attend Worlds they were going to get a call from some suit at Hasbro asking why the hell they let that comment slide.

Nobody would've known about the comment if they hadn't banned him. That's the only reason this has hit the community at large. Also, what do you think the chances are that some player saying he was going to rape David Stern would be banned for life from the NBA?

[Koby]

Nobody would've known about the comment if they hadn't banned him. That's the only reason this has hit the community at large. Also, what do you think the chances are that some player saying he was going to rape David Stern would be banned for life from the NBA?

In the case of the NBA, and lack of televised games/coomercials; I'd say any thing that gets people talking about something OTHER than a lockout is good PR.

[BenBleiweiss]

The exact quote:


"je violerais helene au worldz pour lui faire payer.."

which translates to:


"I'll rape Helene at Worlds to make her pay".

A) Sounds like a threat to me.

B) Morally, this is not someone I want representing Magic, and the Pro Tour/Worlds is the highest visibility of representing Magic.

C) Legally, I can't imagine how bad a position WOTC would be in if they didn't ban the guy, and then he actually (god forbid) did go and rape Helene.

So long story short - good riddance. I don't want someone who publicly threatens violence against women (even as a joke) as someone who also represents Magic.

- Ben

[Bardo]

Just wanted you all to know that the other mods and I are keeping an eye on this thread and will close it if it turns ugly.

On the topic, file this under "Moronic things to do in the age of the interwebs."

I think WotC's action here is warranted, harsh as it may be. And every now and then it never hurts to send a loud and clear "No, that will not be tolerated in any way or form" message to the player base, provided the penalty is neither arbitrary nor capricious. Doesn't seem like that's the case here at all.

[Esper3k]

Yeah, I don't think the banning was a deterrant measure (ie, if he was actually going to follow through with the threat, the banning isn't going to stop him), but a combination of damage control for the company as well as sending a clear message to the players that they don't want people who will make those types of statements playing their game.

[majikal]

This is the worst thread I've ever seen.

[Oiolosse]

However seemingly related they are; thinking something and acting on it are fundamentally different. He didn't just think though, he spoke..I guess that's the point of contention. How to interpret someone's words? If a claim is made that a violent future action will be carried out then I think it's very reasonable to look into it and to thwart any potential harm. Unless it's a joke, in which case it was probably just shitty delivery or the wrong crowd.

[Koby]

Words have consequences? Who knew...?

[TheShaun]

Nobody would've known about the comment if they hadn't banned him. That's the only reason this has hit the community at large. Also, what do you think the chances are that some player saying he was going to rape David Stern would be banned for life from the NBA?

It would depend. Obviously it's less believable due to male-male rape being pretty rare outside of prison, while male-female rape is a very real and sadly common occurrence. In addition, if a guy just said that he would rape Stern it wouldn't be as serious as if he said a specific time and place that was a trip halfway around the world from him for the rape to take place. I think that's a big part of what caused the ban. I don't think rape is funny, but specifying the exact time and place that he was going to do it gave the situation a very "realistic" feeling, to me at least.

If somebody pisses me off and I say "I'm gonna kill you", it isn't great but pretty unlikely. If somebody pisses me off and I say "I am going to stab you with my hunting knife on Tuesday night when I know that you'll be home alone in your house on Maple St.", and it is a fact that he'll be there, it feels quite a bit scarier.

[swoop]

I get death threats on our local MTG forum on daily basis.

What the fuck WOTC? and seriously, grow up with sexual harrasment stuff. Silly Americans.

[Parax]

inb4

That time of month jokes.

On a serious note, I'm not so sure it would have been as serious had he said "I'm going to kill Helen for X and Y reasons" i think that rape is a very sore subject for a lot of people, not just women. Its more common than you would think for children to be molested while growing up so it could be a sore subject for those, and it just would take one person in a high place to really push it through.

[JACO]

This is the worst thread I've ever seen.Clearly you've never seen threads about mono-colored decks by IBA then. ;)

This kid is a meatball, and got balled. There's something that most young people have no clue about. It's called "being accountable for your actions." Act like an idiot; get faded.

[DrJones]

He was unlucky the french have a worse union than the feminists in USA.

[The Wolf]

So WOTC would open themselves up to a huge lawsuit if someone threatened physical violence against an employee and they let that person participate in company sponsored events. This is most likely a standard blanket policy. Also, they don’t give a crap about this kid and this is a valued employee. Easy ban and the correct decision.

[SpikeyMikey]

So WOTC would open themselves up to a huge lawsuit if someone threatened physical violence against an employee and they let that person participate in company sponsored events. This is most likely a standard blanket policy. Also, they don’t give a crap about this kid and this is a valued employee. Easy ban and the correct decision.

I keep seeing this argument reiterated by different people. But I'm going to ask that one of you, any one of you, explains what the threat was. Consider this a collective challenge to all the "but what if he actually HAD" crowd.

Let's say I were being interviewed after losing a close game in the T8 and, obviously distraught, I said, "I can't believe I punted that game. I just want to shoot myself in the face!" Would you call the police and place me on a suicide watch because you'd be "opening yourself up to a huge lawsuit" if I then proceeded to actually shoot myself in the face?

Of course you wouldn't. You would accept that what I said was an exaggeration. It was hyperbole. And this is no different. It wasn't a threat. It was hyperbole. It was some guy blowing off steam. Was it inappropriate? Of course. But we're all adults here. Supposedly, we're intelligent adults, since Magic is generally considered an intellectual pursuit. You can't tell me that you're smart enough to play competitive Magic and at the same time ignorant enough of social conventions and several hundred years of language to consider what he said a threat.

Now Wizards' can do whatever they want with their OP program. We've seen that they have no problem with that. But the ban is excessive. They guy deserved to be slapped on the wrist. Like Ben said above, you don't want that to be representative of your game. But we differ in opinion from there. It wasn't a very serious offense. Saito can cheat his way into money and he gets a year and a half. He'll probably still make the Hall of Fame eventually. What does that say about Wizards of the Coast and about those of you that support this action, that you think making a statement in poor taste is a far worse offense than the de facto theft of tens of thousands of dollars? How, exactly, do you rationalize that one? I really want to know.

[Esper3k]

I guess where you and others like myself disagree is on the severity of the offense.

To me, it's not 100% clear that he didn't intend anything by his statement. I also don't see why WoTC should care to dig deeply into this. If they want to send a message of "we don't want people who make statements like this playing our game", that's their business (and I'm ok with this message).

Simple fact is that Florent made a public statement threatening violent action towards one of WoTC's employees and they acted in the way they thought fit.

To those who argue that there should be legal action taken if WoTC really thought he was serious, we don't know if there was or not yet.

While cheating is terrible for the game, in the end, it's still just money vs someone physically / emotionally getting hurt. That being said, if Saito (or anyone) had been proven to be caught cheating at multiple tournaments, I'm all for a lifetime ban as well. I also believe Saito's punishment was light, but that's a discussion for another thread.

[warfordium]

If you're rushing to this guy's defense, step back a second and think about what you're condoning.

As someone who came back to the game as an adult (because its one of the best games going), I have been simultaneously impressed and depressed at the state of the community. for every well-rounded, considerate adult I find (mostly in the Legacy scene), there's some loser who loves to skip showering, stuff his face with greasy food, being a total degenerate for Magic. the latter kind of player is often also the as-offensive-as-possible-at-all-times chap. and you wonder why so few women play Magic? its because at least half of us are inconsiderate asshats.

here's a tiny thought experiment: imagine Mr. Florent's was directed at your kid sister. or your widowed mother. still think its funny? rape is only funny to you because you will never suffer it. rape provides a lifetime of trauma and sexual anxiety for its victims. so sure, yuck it up. rape is a joke. right. (other popular topics: gays and aids! so much class!)

this is exactly the kind of message WotC should send regardless, but it is especially appropriate given that this clown was about to be flown to a high-profile event on their dime. good riddance.

(and yes, had he threatened a male employee with death (or, how about castration?), he should also have been banhammered, family company or not.)

[sdematt]

Warfordium, get back to work you lazy prof. I can see you not working and surfing Magic forums from here! I can very easily just stop writing your cheque, or throw my EDH deck at you :P

Regarding this, sure, he may have been joking. Unfortunately, the internet doesn't convey sarcasm all THAT well. It's not like no one has ever said "I'll rape your family" when you get blown out by the only card left in the deck that could have your opponent win the game. But, you should know the person you're saying terrible crap like this to (this includes "I'll kill/rape/maim your family/you/your pets/siblings, I'll cut you, I'll dump your body in a ditch, etc.).

I would have done the same thing as WOTC. Joke or not, how do I know he's not a rapist?

-Matt

[BenBleiweiss]

Let's say I were being interviewed after losing a close game in the T8 and, obviously distraught, I said, "I can't believe I punted that game. I just want to shoot myself in the face!" Would you call the police and place me on a suicide watch because you'd be "opening yourself up to a huge lawsuit" if I then proceeded to actually shoot myself in the face?

No, but if you had lost as the result of a judge's ruling, and you said "When I next see that judge I'm going to rape him to teach him a lesson", then I would expect you to be banned for life from DCI events, and if I were that judge I would have a restraining order taken out against you.

- Ben

[SpikeyMikey]

If you're rushing to this guy's defense, step back a second and think about what you're condoning.

As someone who came back to the game as an adult (because its one of the best games going), I have been simultaneously impressed and depressed at the state of the community. for every well-rounded, considerate adult I find (mostly in the Legacy scene), there's some loser who loves to skip showering, stuff his face with greasy food, being a total degenerate for Magic. the latter kind of player is often also the as-offensive-as-possible-at-all-times chap. and you wonder why so few women play Magic? its because at least half of us are inconsiderate asshats.

here's a tiny thought experiment: imagine Mr. Florent's was directed at your kid sister. or your widowed mother. still think its funny? rape is only funny to you because you will never suffer it. rape provides a lifetime of trauma and sexual anxiety for its victims. so sure, yuck it up. rape is a joke. right. (other popular topics: gays and aids! so much class!)

this is exactly the kind of message WotC should send regardless, but it is especially appropriate given that this clown was about to be flown to a high-profile event on their dime. good riddance.

(and yes, had he threatened a male employee with death (or, how about castration?), he should also have been banhammered, family company or not.)

Nobody ever said that what he said was funny. Nobody is rushing to say the guy was a saint. What's been said is that the consequences for his action were way out of line with the action itself.

And to be honest, I wouldn't give two shits if it was directed towards my mother or my sister. You know why? Because it's not a real threat. If I had a dime for every time someone has said something inconsiderate to me that they didn't mean, I'd be stinking filthy rich enough to hire a pack of hybrid wolf/lion/shark's to go tear your sister and mother limb from limb. How many "your momma" jokes have you heard? Or how many times has someone implied they were going to screw your <insert female relative here>? How many times has someone said "I'm going to kick your ass" or "I'm going to kill you"?

I'll clue you in on something. The "offensive as possible at all times chap" isn't actually as offensive as possible at all times. We just like to push the buttons of easily offended people. I could have a pleasant conversation with pretty much everyone in this thread, but if I met you in real life, I would go out of my way to make you as uncomfortable and offended as possible. And that IS a real threat.

[SpikeyMikey]

No, but if you had lost as the result of a judge's ruling, and you said "When I next see that judge I'm going to rape him to teach him a lesson", then I would expect you to be banned for life from DCI events, and if I were that judge I would have a restraining order taken out against you.

- Ben

What makes one of those scenarios believeable and the other one unbelieveable? This is what I'm trying to understand here. Because to my eyes, neither of those scenarios is depicting a situation where the words are going to match the actions. I remember saying years ago that I would kick the shit out of Smemmen if I ever saw him. Then I ran into him at GP: Chicago and guess what? I didn't do anything. Because it's not actually worth the consequences.

[Octopusman]

Nobody ever said that what he said was funny. Nobody is rushing to say the guy was a saint. What's been said is that the consequences for his action were way out of line with the action itself.

And to be honest, I wouldn't give two shits if it was directed towards my mother or my sister. You know why? Because it's not a real threat. If I had a dime for every time someone has said something inconsiderate to me that they didn't mean, I'd be stinking filthy rich enough to hire a pack of hybrid wolf/lion/shark's to go tear your sister and mother limb from limb. How many "your momma" jokes have you heard? Or how many times has someone implied they were going to screw your <insert female relative here>? How many times has someone said "I'm going to kick your ass" or "I'm going to kill you"?

I'll clue you in on something. The "offensive as possible at all times chap" isn't actually as offensive as possible at all times. We just like to push the buttons of easily offended people. I could have a pleasant conversation with pretty much everyone in this thread, but if I met you in real life, I would go out of my way to make you as uncomfortable and offended as possible. And that IS a real threat.

Sure. That's you but this is a corporation. Unfortunately or Fortunately, there's a thing called corporate responsibility and if this guy is in the lime light whatsoever and makes a sexual threat towards an employee of the company he has issues with, well, it is a no brainer. They can't very well do less than a lifetime ban for an insult of this severity. They're a company. We had a women's rights revolution a long time ago.

"You're ugly" is different from "I'm going to rape her" no matter how you slice it. No matter if it's a joke or not. The fact that the target of the joke was a company that he interacts with, it's not surprising that they cut the cord.
For what it's worth, one of my degrees is in PR and I can tell you that you'd be hard pressed to find a company in the U.S. that wouldn't have made this same call.

[caiomarcos]

...you'd be hard pressed to find a company in the U.S. that wouldn't have made this same call.

That still does not make it a correct decision. US companies and americans are well known around the world to be crazy about all this "restraining orders, sue-the-shit-out-of-someone for insulting me" and all those non-sense lawsuit actions.

[oldbsturgeon]

What makes one of those scenarios believeable and the other one unbelieveable? This is what I'm trying to understand here. Because to my eyes, neither of those scenarios is depicting a situation where the words are going to match the actions. I remember saying years ago that I would kick the shit out of Smemmen if I ever saw him. Then I ran into him at GP: Chicago and guess what? I didn't do anything. Because it's not actually worth the consequences.

You know he is a lawyer right :smile:

The internet has made for some of the best things to ever come about, but its also made for people to have to constantly be very careful, serious or not.
Once its in writing or in a picture, its on the internet forever somewhere. In this guys case, he really should have never said it, but especially on the internet.

[Octopusman]

That still does not make it a correct decision. US companies and americans are well known around the world to be crazy about all this "restraining orders, sue-the-shit-out-of-someone for insulting me" and all those non-sense lawsuit actions.

Hee hee. Yes, I'm afraid it's called CYA. "Cover your ass".

[MirrorMask]

I am gonna rape all of you you hear me?? ALL OF YOU!!!! AND THIS IS SPARTA!!!!:tongue: . Oops I guess wizards banned me for 3 lifetimes! F....k!!!
Some people should learn to have some humor/black humor/spicy humor/stupid humor you name it.
You Americans seem very strange to me... seriously ( but no offense meant so please don't sue me!).


~Salutations from Hellas

[lordofthepit]

Nobody would've known about the comment if they hadn't banned him. That's the only reason this has hit the community at large. Also, what do you think the chances are that some player saying he was going to rape David Stern would be banned for life from the NBA?

2000%. He'll also get fined eleventy gazillion dollars before David Stern hires a hitman to kill him.

[SpikeyMikey]

2000%. He'll also get fined eleventy gazillion dollars before David Stern hires a hitman to kill him.

Orly? Name the last major athlete to be banned from a sport. Because by my count, it was Pete Rose, about 30 years ago. Doesn't happen.

[hi-val]

People commenting internationally: the United States indeed has a different idea of sexual harassment than continental views. For good or bad, that's how it is here. Our culture doesn't really tolerate people who make jokes about raping women to punish them. Whether a lifetime ban was appropriate or not, I don't know; it seems that one less guy making tacky jokes is no great loss to the Magic community.

[lordofthepit]

Orly? Name the last major athlete to be banned from a sport. Because by my count, it was Pete Rose, about 30 years ago. Doesn't happen.

Name the last NBA player to threaten to rape David Stern.

This is a guy who fines his owners $500k for talking on Twitter. Someone who threatens athletes that he "knows where the bodies are buried, because I buried them myself". A guy who threatens a coach for complaining about officiating, and promises the media that "you won't hear from him again".

Yeah, he would certainly ban someone for making a comment about raping him.

[Meekrab]

Why is it French players that seem to be screwing themselves royally lately?
I'd make a comment about the general level of intelligence and common sense I've noticed in French people, but I'd probably get banned from France for life.

[kiblast]

I'd make a comment about the general level of intelligence and common sense I've noticed in French people, but I'd probably get banned from France for life.

You know, I'm in France currently (northern part of France, Picardie, Amiens) and I found them to be nice and kind. They completely ignore any other language which is not french, and they seem not to worry about it, but they're cool.